Hey teachers. Are you looking for fun new ways to create community in your school then joined the moth education programme for them off teacher institute or empty I empty. I is a conference that brings together educators who want to use storytelling techniques in their classrooms and communities empty. I will beheld vote. clearly this summer applications are open. Now, through june fourth visit the moth dot, org backslash empty. I to sign up, this episode of the moth radio. Our was originally produced for the moths twentieth anniversary in two thousand seventeen, the

this is the multimedia hours and Pierre Ex. I'm sierra asked engineers, and in this hour, a celebration of twenty years of them off. That's right. The moth produce storytelling nights long before the start of the moth radio, our for some twenty years means china or platinum. We ve, twenty years with over twenty thousand stories, told on more stages all around the world with events that stitched into our collective personal history from why to kay the spice girls fukushima Bernie madoff the royal wedding wild elections discrimination and war is all over the world. The land twenty years had been full, it was

binkie. Ninety seven and a well was a thing and she said all marthas emails. We're just subpoenaed so you're either voting. Yes to saddam Hussein or no there's no other candidate. And I realized tat moment for the First time in my life as an outgoing man, I feel like an equal american for me and my wife and my mother in watching the second plan came in and We noticed the big explosion and that's a momentous period, because that's when hurricane katrina hit that was the year that the Boston red sox won the world series for the first time in eighty six years, the novelist george Dawes green started the month in new york city in nineteen, ninety seven, so people could connect through personal stories.

them off community programme, started shortly after that we run storytelling workshops with under represented candidates them off his dedicated presenting stories from everyone and with that our first date. taylor is richie desalvo system with my archives, riches are tried and true all star storyteller from them community programme in this story is called anthony. The hat, here's richie live with them on one of the regulars in his speech, rear that I used to manage was anthony that everytime Anthony were come, come in for lunch, tell me richard you weren't, a great operation places always clean foods. Great take care to people nice. you say someday, you have to get you own place. You know you need to have your own pizzeria

One day in the back of my mind, I'd be agreement, because that was my. That was my dream to one day open my old pizzeria, you know I've been in the business for like fifteen years and like every every three points that I worked for was the same old crap. You know, richie Work will give you he said the action will take care of you put like after a while. You know many years it was just like it was string me along and I was gonna- give fed up with the whole thing. So one predict afternoon. Anthony comes here for his usual launched two slices. What anchovies five garlic nazi cows, on a diet, coke I can never understand he says, richie I got. I got this proposition for you want you. I want you to come and work for me I'll. Take you on the my wing and let you make some real money, and we have

Maybe a bad day at the shop that night, so you know I was co limped. Let me take a shower anthony so long, He tells me from setting up this operation downtown. Have my friends in a back taken from illegal bets on sports, few novice back and your job. Would be to stay up front run the operation of front or you need to do richie. You look out for the police, you know, take care of a puzzle led into clients press the code. If you see the police, and in the morning when my work is come in and make sure everybody here that little metal plastic wastepaper basket, show with light a flu. and make sure everybody has matches that was my job piece of cake.

No problem for three times the amount that I was making. It sounded pretty good long, so I started work into anthony. I mean you know. it was. It was great I mean not only working at the job, it was like every night after work, we all go down to edit a blonde social club down on them Sullivan street stuff. What little cop gino we gonna, nick and eightys and solving street we go to the la dolce the time we walked in the restaurant, the seas would pot the waiters, over them. Selves and take care was presented. It was the eighty. The blood was their frankie, California. Was there weren't you behind and olive in all these years? This is, kind of a nice thing. You know I mean people would stop at the table, give the respect The new buys, while a wine and just move on- and it was kind of nice with it- was ourselves-

I can't come after the war, and the money was great, bending his fast on making it an and think things. Look things look good now. This is going off about seven months and as fate would have it, it is usually does look. I look out of the corner of my eye one afternoon and I see cops, call me with hammers, and Pretty close, so I was just able to get the code in and one the guys, and so I knew they would get the work in the paper wastepaper basket, no evidence and everything would be cool so now it must have known the operation. They must have had somebody come back because they just bolted past me and they broke down the door and they wanted the guys in the back to try to get the papers and stuff like that. So with that, I I was able to walk out

the place. You know I just kind of school, united errand down a blot, got down some way and I'm going like this male white nice day, sweating behind this pizza oven, rather than come aboard with anthony, and but I didn't, and I was running down the train station with no job. So now I didn't know what to do at first. So I, laid low for about three days? Then Anthony call me up now sit anti. You know you took me way from this job now, what am I gonna? Do. I'm out of a job is lasted a hot nine more and did you know I know you know I like it getting, but what am I gonna do now I'm out of a job. As would you take it easy, don't worry about it? You meet me at the woodwork building tomorrow morning I didn't really want to meet this guy anywhere any of his friends. At that point

is it to meet him somewhere usually went and you, madam, so I did what I did as I was told, and I went at what were building met, Anthony we got a nice floor. and we made his lawyer hand. Me we walk in there. Has me a brown beg. Us is what does this lunch there's, nobody wiseguy ice as I, Asia's open a back door opened a bad and its thirty eight thousand thousand the nicest. What is this voices? a man over there. He goes next to my because that's the owner of the peace area. Ok, though I and that's a merry only to peace, rear, that's gonna, be you up peace or even a couple, a couple of minutes, so I this is pretty good. This is nice, you eddie, I'm sorry, I

other. You excited disgusted What by the lawyer whatever in your name annually on repeats area. I says I can't believe of saint just don't believe will at least this is just about too much for me that this is just a beautiful thing. This is my dream. This is my dream work many many years so alone. Behold I get the pizzeria. I go down to proper knight set it up. I clean up the store, I name it the sellers pizza home baby cows on now tat, I was the one in brooklyn or new york to make a little baby cows on the way, but here I am is my dream is my dream I buy neon. The business is going good, I mean

like in October October november. My account, I can't believe it goes on tripling the business. I mean the businesses like quadrupling about five months I mean it's like five times the amount that the guy's previously with joy. So on. These things are looking good, I mean, like I said I would neon in the window. I am brain did with green. I put copa collar and read, and I put pizza and white like the italian flag, it was the mean and the young kids in the area that you from blocks away is the original. It's really cool man. We could see a five blocks away and it was a nice sign I spent money on these anti coke bottles. I put them on the table and my heart was really into it. This is my dream there and now I put a fresh flowers and the anti co piles everyday, good and nice home. We look for the ladys and kids

it was nice and I was painted it up points. An air conditioner, okay, so October, embassies. Seven january february and march on do really good fix this place up nice and I was making some good money. My dream was there now what happened is it was my first time in business and I really didn't plan things well. I was so excited that Anthony had set me up I didn't plan on the fact that the summit was common along the school that I was so in a lot of pizza, too too was going to close. It was, residential area. A lot of people go on vacation, so my my my my business started to take a downturn and it went down half and went down a little bit more than that and then July came and everybody was out of town? And you know the business is down now now. In the meantime, Bobby cash was coming in for anthony's payments every every week and I was paying them off and it was no problem. I paid them off. I had money for supplies.

I was painted, store offline paid. My work is everything was great, so now, first, first does this one week I told by the cash body I dont have the five hundred thousand. We could you come next week. He goes to me gap, but don't let this happen too often so ices, I would elop next week. I says fine I'll pick up the business. I told them what was going on so the the third we come comes by. He comes back, he comes down and he comes in the store He kind of gets a little irritated said. Can I speak to anthony, and at this point in time he uses no anthony's, not in a picture right now on collecting money for anthony soil, my dreams becoming a nightmare already so now,

barbie comes down the last time. Any kind of like throws me up against the wall and obscene, and I'm thinking of all the stories that he used to tell me when we were having a good time about how he shake people side down a fifteen story, construction site to get money for anthony, and it's not a good thing. so leaves a score because I'm gonna come back tomorrow and you need to have the money. I says right I'll, get it up somehow, anyway, I knew there was no way you gonna get. I was gonna get the money, so I just shut the store down. I moved out of brooklyn went out alone now to my sister's house. Trying figure out a plan, how I'm going to get these guys them money anyway about. the two weeks on long island trying to high china calm down, trying to lay low but I'm sick, is not anyway, one particular night. I get a knock at the door. I pier the window on who's there is any the blonde, its strategy, California,

and its bobby cash Look around turn around and about my system ready to say I lean, maybe maybe that's all I need to tell them I'm not here, but I It really bring this to my sister's house, as I did this myself. I have to take care of this myself so someone all cars. I can get up my open it though ices what's up this is entity in the car you want to speak to ices. Ok, let me get my jacket zone took off all my jewel. I I lean Eileen I'll, be back in a little while and we go down. The driveway into the car is says: get in the back and entities in the back and indeed a blonde scary individuals is right next to me, ok entity, as mrs take off so it take off down a road. Nobody saying a word get on a law express will write if five mins ten minutes. Fifteen minutes, and nobody saying a word. The sounds its destiny and

dr in my head, is down. I try to speak to end its own. The store that this summit You don't want to hear about it so at this point I don't really know. What's going on with It's driving nobody saying a word so finally, at new species goes, do you remember the? I owe you that we signed in my lawyers office, and I says yes and again I try to tell him about this, and the summer, came in the condition and he tells me to shut up. so we driving along and out of the corner of my eye see anthony, go on like this, and my stomach is flip in my heart is raised in my head goes down even further and it comes out with the. I owe you any goes wrong.

with this. I owe you that you sign of my lies office and I says yeah anthony, but the stomach, and he just everybody starts laughin. He ripped it up because richie you stand up guy when you get the money you take care of it. If you don't get it don't worry about it. You look a little take your you are right. The night idea. Could you get me home immediately and with that I was there, In the next time I went out to eat, it was in a diana and I don't care who care me. I was I myself, I pay with my own money, and it was one of the best in his eye had had a long and I'll go out. I was brought up if I want to make money I'll, do it, how I was raised to as well her card. Do yourself don't count on a break,

hard work in america will do the trick That's why I thought that was richie to sound a mouth night called new york stories, which he passed away a few years ago, but he'll always be remembered through histories, its impact to note the month is a place. It was built and grown by an army a wide, ranging community of dedicated staff. Where'd members, storytellers, volunteers and listeners. Like you sprinkled through this. when he found a anniversary episode. We also have shouts from listeners like this on from marilla, in LOS angeles, did what it was should eyes, a happy anniversary and let your they smell, doesn't matter what type of story it is. It is

sad. What a happy one, I'm a good one, a bad one. It always makes me cry, I feel so happy and again totally get a sense of the people who are telling the story and happy anniversary guys. After our break a story from the dawn of time. When google was invented when them three radio. Our continues the the moth radio hours produced by atlantic public media in woods whole massachusetts and presented by pr ex them

Is brought to you by progressive where drivers who save by switching save nearly seven hundred dollars on average, quote now at progressive dotcom, progressive cash, multi insurance company and affiliates national average twelve month savings of six hundred ninety eight dollars by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June twenty twenty one and may twenty twenty two potential savings will vary. This is the moth radio, our from pure ex. I'm sarah asked engineers and I'm your host we're celebrate, twenty years of moth nights in this episode, and we star listeners, to call in and tell us their mouth moment their favorite stories. how they found them off here one from maya and SAM matteo, California and hey it's honest we discovered them off through hard core stocking. My airbus. When I first began to see her, I want to

more about her. So naturally, I took to be internet to help me out with that, and There is one video on her husband surround, aware of them driving by a volcano and her husband jokingly running in her face tat. He had thought provoking a first and she responded back that she was busy crying, which is why she missed it. And definitely weird how much leaving I'm rapid video and, if you listening, I am in for a very awkward next session, but in the captain of the video add it to the cinema, because that was what they have been listening to, which is why they were crying, and I was intrigued. So I looked you guys out fell love and had been a huge mannerism Now we hear that mastery make people cry aloud and ok. Ok, it's true. Some do make, people to europe

come on summer, just very funny, like our story from Jesse klein the stories about the dawn of google with a shout out to craigslist and a heads jesse story does contain references to human sexuality here is Jesse live at a moth mainstage at the new york, public library, the hokey pokey, and so here it is in august of two thousand and one me, and a boyfriend of six years. My first love my life, went through one of the worst breakups in the history of recorded ma am I know that may sound naive or self absorbed, and that's because it is but I swear. It was really really bad and we worked together at the same company, but that's not where we met we'd met in college. When we were both late,

eighteen nineteen years old and when we map I was this like super superman nerdy virgin and was harder, Jim, but I was really nerd now is, and he was sort of this chubby like almost virgin me, I'm in I key here really fair face and he had slept with somewhat by frontier workers, anyway, so we must really low subsidy him and those are party were brought us together. You know it's like, I feel a copy them myself. So do I do want to come over him. That's so that was like a part of the thing, but then the magical thing that happened was we got in this relationship, we loved each other and we shower each other with affection and sex and love, and over time we started feel better about ourselves. You know it's like at the end of the. six years, we were both feeling okay and we were both sort of secretly independently wondering what it would be like to sort of like give having sex with someone else a go. You know what I mean.

And that's when the relationship began to crumble and even though we still loved each other, we ended up breaking up and he asked me to move out of our shared house and I was devastated, but it was the sort of devastated where you think you feel bad, but something's going to happen. It's going to make. You feel worse and for me that was finding out that, like three weeks after I moved out. He started sleeping with its twenty two year old blonde assistance at the same company. We worked ass. She sat like five feet away from me: yeah right. She I was, I have a normally level has you being. I went, wouldn't berserker, I didn't know how to handle. This is Worse thing that ever happened to me in my life, like we was a month with the past six years. This is the worst thing and what made even worse, ass she was

She was absolutely like. A jewish girls like worse chicks, a nightmare. Did I mean like blonde she's petite shoes way, waifu had a pert nose like visible body hair is just like the worse things. as a jew. I hated her being everything that I wasn't, but then so when it was in the no told me that she was also a jew as ike oh, my god, I like how did like murmur on try betray me this way and the worst was there now like there is like the potential vote. Actually, you like neurotic an interesting. You know I mean, and I couldn't do, that and her as a sort of like emotionless wasp. You know, which is why and thinking the minimum price might make yourself feel better, and I know that's like in ethnically stereotyped people, but I feel if you already hate them for really valid reasons. Already. It's ok, it's all right right. So I just I was having a break. A breakdown of just a total

break down. I was I'm a normal human being. I will take the routes. People can take too cover from this and the normal maritime trade going to therapy to talk it out didn't work. I tried going to the gym to work it out that didn't work and stan. I fell in. This depressive spiral where I couldn't think about anything I just ruled by these. Two horrible urges. One was The urge you to sort of masochistic lie think about how much prettier she was than me and everything about her. That was, I dunno just so much more perfect and sexier and better the other urge where's that I needed to find out anything something about her, something about her personality that allow me to hate her. They are allowing them to feel superior to her like some like bit of dirt on her. That would prove she was actually shitty that wasn't one I plan to say, but it's really what was here so one day,

I'm whining on the phone to my friend, Wendy god bless when hang am I I work here I want to hate, or where can I find out to make her hate him on issues like wall? Have you tried googling, her now, I was a nerd, but I was not a geek so I didn't know what google was I didn't now and I'm sure right. You all know what it is. If there's one or two people you're our splain, it google is most powerful thing ever invented on the planet. It is this. Instead, in search engine that allows you to be crazy and top someone from the comfort of your own home drive,

it is a more important invention than fire or the wheel as far as I'm concerned. So she was like why don't you, google her? Now it's like shaw and I am going to google the crap out of it's curl because I knew her name, so I went to the little search window and the internet, and I didn't understand the power of google, so it wasn't really expecting anything to happen, but within three seconds this link comes up, and it takes me to this article that had been an interview with her for college newspaper freshman year, and it was like this thing where she was like the care of a celebrity of the day. Listen to this, so the thing comes up, there's a photo of her and its most adorable photo of a human being ever taken. She couldn't look blunder or

where was be jewish she's like wearing low rider sweatpants before anyone even knew about those and like a thing with a cow on it and she's, just in the three choirs great, oh, and that drove me nuts and I was scared to move on. In the article, but I did an interview and in the interview she revealed that her greatest desire goal in life was to become a stand up. Comic, a famous stand up comic and I was like fuck me because that's that was my secret goal. That was my girl and I'd always want to do that. Since I was a kid, I never have the guts I'd never had the mob seated, and here was I was reading. She was arena sketch group on my gun. I was like so okay, so she's. She looks wasabi but she's jewish she's banging my boy

friend and she's already like apparently on our way to achieving my dream. This cannot stand and I decided if we were both like aiming for the moon right. We both have the same goal as I'm getting there. First right I start to performances, ironic thing: I've never been more miserable in my life and I start trying to write jokes and go perform, I'm going to open mics and it's depressing and I hate it, but over time it's like slowly. Improving I get to do book shows so it goes through my two or three depressing over makes it four or five like okay shows a week, but all along I'm still just like manically depressed right and I'm like Google. in her endlessly and looking at the picture, and that picture became the focal point. Not only of my loathing for her, but my loathing for myself and I literally like five or six times a day would just stare at the photo, and I felt terrible myself. My therapist was like, if you don't stop googling her, I'm going to cry

her doctor and put you on prozac, and I didn't want to go on prozac, because I was scared around the side. Effects of prozac would be that I'd become less witty and being witty was sort of the only side effect have been depressed. That was working for me. You know I mean so really should not clap but so I decided to keep performing and I'm not going to go on prozac. Yet so I'm performing so one day, I'm doing the show it's like a slightly better place than I usually do it, and I'm watching the audience stream into you know filling in as before the show starts and who walks in but her she comes in the show had been advertising time out new york, my name. It was very clear. She must have known. I was going to be there. I was like what kind of weird drive by shit. Is this because she sat in the front row? It was clear and I was like. Oh my god I felt so terrible. I was looking at her is she's pretty I I barely could go on and just soap semi. I managed to do it and I ran out as soon as I was done.

Ran home. Then you to have my nightly loathe fast with the photo right. I'm sorry I just like how could she did? I'm about to Google, her and all of a sudden occurs to me. Maybe the reason she came there is because she's also obsessed with me, like I'm the girl before she's, dating this guy. I was in for six years So she must be curious, must be driving crazy, arabic. What if she's googling me and I don't know why it had never occurred to me- to try googling myself. I think I thought there was a rule against it or something or that the computer would like implode like that, like the self absorption would, be handled birds like I'm gonna, do it. I tie my name, google, myself and my shock and amazement. There's like shit there on the computer about me. I didn't put it there and it's all stuff about performing. It's all like links to advertising for shows. I had done so. It was like still there one or two like kind of just really brief. Like nice mentions

Well the things that, like just sort of briefly made me, feel better and like I realised that was the only antidote to like the feeling of having to google. Her was to google myself and that's how I became obsessed with googling myself and here's the thing about googling yourself. It's as dirty as it sounds Yeah I mean that you have this urged to do it. They don't want anyone to know you're doing it, but the thing is people deny it, but everyone. Is it you know what I mean, but I would I would google myself. I would look at things I would see if anything new is coming up. Blah blah blah. So anyway, I couldn't stop. I was googling her and googling myself googling her googling myself feeling bad feeling good, okay, so one day I do a show at irving. Plaza is like this big thing: do the show next day you know normal stuff, come home

myself. I want to check in want to check in and do something new pops up and it's this thing, the heading it's links is funny girl like process, and I click on it and it takes me to craigslist. Yes do you know a crisis says if anyone years and no it's like hippy Debbie bulletin, board people, renting apartments and giving each other bikes and but there this thing ana called miss connections and that's what funny girl was from miss connections. Like that. You know on the back of the voice like when people see each other on the street in your own us, you see someone cuter it ever and you don't get it. after them, and then the next day he writes It's ok. I saw you on six february street. You really want I can t shirt like Metallica. It's gone like that and Any of them and that a funny girl was someone, wrote had seen me. Other report shows a funny erlich, hey josie kind, I saw you at the show

I thought you really adorable. I wanted to talk to you afterwards. I didn't have the guts you can email me. This is the most amazing things ever having to remind her life. I've never had someone just sort of like me without putting a lot of work into it like when I used to want to hook up with guys I had it was like a huge exertion of personality, which was exhausting exhausting to have a personality, so okay, so anyway, so there was like take a couple of days to think about it right in the space of those few days. I continue to do myself. More shit started popping up on craigslist about me. The second thing. Was this from a totally different guy and he's like a sober forming, but this one was kind of creepy, it wasn't as brief and adorable was like ooh and as arouse like yeah. Maybe the people on craigslist missed connections are not dating material, but it could sort of be funny material for the stage, because it's really the greatest website ever so. I started doing this bit all around town about craigslist and miss connections, and I found out that when I

it by saying it. I was like inviting every like delinquent loon to my little out, because they would people would email me because they knew I looked at it and stuff kept popping up and popping up. What I didn't immediately know was that a lot of it was from my friends, because once I told them at the

First, two there were like haha, wouldn't be funny to like fake route, so it was like these decoys, but I didn't care because if you looked on craigslist it looked like I was hot shit for like a week. I was like awesome, but one day I come and it's like within this. Like special two weeks, I get back to my office from lunch and I have a voicemail on my phone from a man who identifies himself as a writer for the fucking new yorker, and he says hello he's like I've. Seen all this stuff about you on craigslist. I would like to write a talk of the town piece about you and like this crazy trend, please call me by god what better revenge on

It's boyfriend then for them to read an article in the new yorker about the fact that I am hot and I'm funny, and I have groupies. Oh my god and I was like I did it. I called them. It was a done deal. I was like How's, it feel down their badge would know. writing about you and the new yorker, the most legitimate publication ever right? I've I've won I'm on the moon, but then something happened, which was that the article didn't happen. She loves, woody. I know it didn't happen today, literally. I don't even remember why it didn't happen and he was very nice on the phone and call me pitcher to his editor. For some reason. He couldn't through. I was really nice on the phone back as like. That's ok, don't worry! Ok, fine hang up, there's more,

or disappointed than I had ever been in my life and I started bawling bawling having a breakdown bawling crying and during that ball fast, I had to say, epiphany where I left my body, it's like my soul. So there's like a can't take it. I left her body and floated up to the top of the office. I look down and say: let's take a look. a land here, I'm in my office right. Not done any work for my employer in about six months? I've been didn't, myself on the internet, constantly I am crying I'm crying and I'm disappointed, but why not? Because I didn't get the article in the new yorker, but because the ex boyfriend wouldn't read it and it was sort of like at that. Second, it all just sort of like dawned on me that in the years since the breakup I'd become so obsessed with being this race to make other people laugh that I lost my ability to laugh at myself.

I think like if I could just regain the ability to step back and look at all the crazy things I've been doing since this thing happened. I would be a better comic like this would be material. This is much we are than anything I've been trying to write and, moreover, I would be a happier person. So that's what I did and I've become a better comic and have become a happier. and now been dating this guy that I really like, and am I don't look at that girls picture anymore, but he and I google each other constantly. Thank you very much that was jessica. Just is well known for her role as a writer and executive producer and the annual ward winning show inside Amy Schuman she's. Also the author of the memoir you'll grow out of it over the years. The mark has connected lots of people, including jesse, and her husband, actually

after hearing one of jesse stories on them off radio. Our years ago, a young man, and thought She sounds super and yes, her now husband who killed her and asked her out on a date, the rest is history The after the break, a story set in the south africa. That was too. at a mouth night to coincide with the seventy first, you in general assembly it's a can temporary story about things that are happening right in front of us right now, next on the moth radio, our the the The moth radio hour is produced by atlantic public media,

it's all massachusetts and presented by p r exe. I'm serious asked engineers and here listening to the moth radio, our from Pierre Ex we're up to our fight no story as part of this celebration to mark twenty years of moth nights over that time we ve heard about the milestones in many people's lives and in the world. The story up reminds us of the importance of bearing witness its from our glow full community programme which has now expanded to the global south. Elevating stories on world issues, since

then came Mr Simon told this at a moth night at lincoln center during the seventy first un general assembly, the night celebrated the women and girls from around the years hassan king live at them off, so I am the product of a freedom fighter and an accountant which I guess would make me a pragmatic idealist. My father left south africa when he was twenty one years old and to join the armed wing of the liberation struggle and a few years later, if he met my mother who was well, she wasn't my mother at the time, but he met an accounting student. A young accounting student who is charming and beautiful and the rest as they say, is history. when we were growing up. My parents, who's to say things like when we are free one day when freedom comes

when liberation is here and our favorite would be when Nelson mandela's released from jail in my sisters, and I would look at each other and be like yeah right, like that's ever gonna happen. right. Nelson Mandela is going to get out of jail and, of course he did and and not only did he get out of jail, but actually he was the first president of a free and democratic south africa and so fast forward. It's the mid nineteen nineties, my family is back, I'm back from university and I've landed my first job and it's actually my dream job. I'm working for the united nations on a program on young people in hiv and aids It's so, of course, its pragmatic idealists, dream come true right. On the one hand, it it's the? U n. So it's like you know, love peace and happiness and, on the other hand, let's face it. The? U n is like the world's biggest bureaucracy right, so it's like rules and systems and peace

teacher is, unlike I'm in, haven't right. Both things in one place spread. So it's great son, I'm very happy. I m also really excited because I get to throw myself into my new country and this new job all at the same time, because by this time it's cleared me that, while my parents generation for them the struggle was one to end white minority rule, for my generation struggle is going to be slightly different right for us. It's going to be the tangibles it's going to be health and education and water and sanitation. The things that you kind of need to know stuff about right, so I throw myself into reading and research and trying to figure out as much as I can, because I'm the pragmatic, idealist right so I've gotta figure

and how to do the stuff, and so I can tell you everything about hiv and aids and young people, because that's what my new job is about, and I can tell you about the key elements of plan for the syndromic management of s. T I can tell How many young women living in the northern puzzling a tall district of tissue way age? Fifty to. Nineteen are living with hiv. I can tell you the likelihood of each will transmission and a single sex act like I am on it and then, of course, I meet prude It's I'm sitting in my office one morning, no doubt with my head buried in summer either you in our research report and this kind of whirling, dervish of a mad sort of dread, locked teeth and joy and laughter person, kind of plunks us off in front of me and dumb changes.

This herself. And, like me, she is a young woman whose working for the, u n, and while I was working on a programme on young people and aids prove was working. she was one of the first people living open. With hiv and aids. Inside forgotten. So she was working for the. U n to help too you stick man the workplace, so she was hired to kind of damage. To employers that, like people living with hiv, aren't gonna bite right and that you can actually hire people, living with hiv and there's can be no negative consequences for you or your bottom line and so we had a lot in common. and so we hung out not- in the office, but on weekends. You know that Certain though plays and south Africa was dislike, amazing, new blossom in place, but this fantastic new constitution and everybody had rides and prove Her sort of mad group of friends we're all lesbians, which was like fantastic for me because, like my cool points,

shot up like a thousand percent it wonderful. It was great. It was a wonderful wonderful time, but of course, It wasn't as simple as things seemed on the surface after some time it became clear to me prudence was in a very violent and abusive relationship. And so I pulled her aside and as a crew like what's going on, then you know you're the most, confident amazing woman, I know what's happening and shoes are on as and it doesn't matter right that doesn't matter because what's going to happen, is you need to get out of this, his ship and the way you're going to get out of that as you're going to move in with us right. There's plenty of space in our house come and live with us, and so before you knew it. Prue was living with us and, of course there wasn't a lot of so she was living in my room and actually she was not just thing an erroneous thing, and I bet so. We were like china,

I did try to lead into every night and we would get up in the morning and go to the office exhausted, because we're talking so much and twice a week. Because prudence had managed to wangle her way into this experimental drug treatment programme, because these were the days before and you retrovirals were widely available twice a week. We would get on the highway from pretoria where we lived and drive to johannesburg to the doctors office, where she would have the meant. and I remember the first time we got to the doctors office. I parked and I took the chaotic- the ignition real ready to get out and proves like none. You you stay here and I'm like oh, but we do every thing together: ok, ok, stay in the car and approve went in and the drive back was in silence. Right. There was no talking,

and so this happened twice a week every week for a few weeks after a couple of weeks, the men were clearly you know starting to have their effects on on her and we got to the doctors office, one more and she needed help. There were two stairs to sort of got two steps to walk up to get into the doctors practices so she needed some help, and so I got out to help her and like inside secretly. I'm like you know, I'm feeling really bad that she's not feeling well, but thank god I can get tickled. Because now I see what's going on in their right. So I so we go inside and it's the small, the little room and it's about twelve too people who are sitting in that room and its this silence and try to what all the headlines were telling us at that time about what aids looked like right. Aids is a black disease. Aids is a gay disease, is aids is a disease of poverty. Actually, this room didn't look like that at all right. It was a fairly a fluent middle class room by

It is clear that nobody in that room wanted to be their service like this directly silence, and so we kind of crept in and we sat down and. People would be called one by one and reception is called this name, and it was enough names only and she called Alice and Peru stands up goes inside like her, and she comes back god, after about thirty minutes or so, and we go back into the car and we start making them long, silent track. You know back to pretoria and so on. Driving and I look at her and I say what you like and Peru says what you like, and I said the doktor. What's he like, and she looked at me for long moment and she said he won't touch me without gloves on and I realize that my friend right, my brave rages, amazing friend, who is

openly living with hiv and a time when people are getting killed for that train, who is out lesbian at a time when women were getting killed for that still are actually right. But she's also petrified and vulnerable and ashamed of herself, frightened, that's not a contradiction, that's all of us! That's life right! It's all happening at the same time, so in that moment, Peru taught me a really powerful, an important lesson, a lesson that I have carried with me in twenty years, as an activist in as an ally with people living with hiv and aids, and it was a lesson that was basically that you know it was fine to be a pragmatic idealists. Try the pragmatism is good and idealism is good, but that what I was missing was empathy and that and that, if

if I was going to make any kind of of difference. If I was gonna I wasn't actually listening to what was saying. I was kind of listening, but I wasn't listening enough right and that if I was going to make any kind of impact- and if I was going, to be the kind of advocate that I wanted to be- that what I was going to have to do was listen not just to the words of people like prudence, but much more importantly. I needed to listen to the silences. It was something is neither consenting to sancho rates, inclusion in south africans, daily maverick newspaper and she's

working on a book about belonging and identity, and with that we have reached the end of our anniversary, our boy that went first asked this episode and twenty years before we go one more listeners tribute art from and anna California to meet him off reaffirmed at most tangled level the human experience all the highs and and all the lows have a good friend who's, a family physician, and he says the best diagnostic tool he's ever come across a book called the exquisite risk which says some native american tribes would ask for questions. When was the last time you danced My was left him. He said when was the last time you told her story and when was the last time you listen story of another. I want to say thank you for covering at least half of it,

and thank you for telling and listening with more for the last twenty years and remember to sing and dance too for good measure that's it for the month, radio, our we hope you all join us next time. Your host this hour with Sarah austin generis catherine burns larry rose in italy. A town directed the stories in the show the rest of the monster actuarial staff include Sarah haber men jennifer hickson, and make bowls production support from timothy Lee special thanks to Laurens fear, rally, Delia boom and casey damage. The moth would like.

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