Eighty six years and over fifty million acres later ducks unlimited with our volunteers and supporters continue to lead the way for the future of water. Waterfowl weather its attending a local of it or joining our volunteer to you too play a role in the next fifty million acres visit. the www ducks dot org and find out how you can leave your mark for generations to come. Ducks unlimited, the world leader in wetlands and waterfowl conservation. The final round of the nfl players takes place this week with champion.

sunday fourteen remain, but only two will make it all the way the road to civil society. Seven continue with it, and I see- and I have seen championship gate presented by into a terrible tat, sunday january, twenty, not visit annabel dot com, my schedule, but our schedule, all tyler Jones and I'm casey smith. We host the element podcast. We are a couple of native texans that love to push the limits in all our outdoor pursuits from Elk, whitetails and everything in between. We share a hundred stories, tactics and even some failures that have helped us continue to do. What, if you can't get enough of the outdoors, we are constantly trying to learn more about the game you pursue you. Should the only forecast,

it's on the radio app on apple podcasts, poor. Wherever you get your podcasts, the meat eater podcast coming at you shirtless severely voted in in my case underwear list, a meat, eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light, creating proof, versatile hunting apparel from marino base layers to technical outer. Where for every hunt burst like go farther state, listen up. This is but tell us for mediator, and I need your help I'm going the national wild turkey federations, annual convention in nashville tennessee this year and I'm looking for the best turkey, storytellers alive. Now I

we all have a good turkey story to tell, but I want you to think about who you know that tells an absolutely riveting turkey tale a person they draw everyone in the room to their story ring. To me, I'm, going to be a rhyme in studios in the same building as a convention set up with recording equipped. Building engineer is going to be there to make sure it sounds great. The goal of creating a national archive of hunters stories, and my first stop is the south east, because I know you all down. There can spend a good story Is our oral history, I believe, there's a man's historical value to these stories and they should be preserved for future generations. Don't let your grandpa or is die with them ringing the convention and have him spinner yearn. For me. The stories can be funny the educational, exciting or more importantly, they have to be engaging. This is where the good story, teller part, comes in

all storytellers, we'll get twenty minutes to tell their story, and I will be on hand to ask questions to fill in the blanks will be required bring it riman studio, see from nine a m to four p m thursday, friday and saturday of the convention, which is that you are a sixteen seventeen and eighteen. There will be posted Directing you to our location, design of bread I am slightly time go to the meat. Com in search turkey's sign up. We will all I have sign up available all location at the door of riman studio, see mediator will use these stories in a forthcoming audio project, most likely in podcast format. So they will be available to you. Everyone, as long as the internet is a lie. So please come nashville for the national wild turkey federation convention and bring me the best turkey storyteller, you know our.

Hunting legacy depends on it were joined by mercer longing who current scribe as a was not here describe them as the last trapper, california, and maybe bobcat expert former, not informer bobcat, like bob cat fur harvester turned continue to do that, but also got involved in the research world. Of applying his skills that being able to catch animals, the no one else can catch yeah for sure it's been a fun several years been doing it for. Now three years on the project? Arizona now and you know what the cage business I end up. Ah, you know I end up selling cage traps for research,

work in all over the country really almost pretty much every state, that's doing a population studier or anything with bob cats, There are not too many of them that doesn't in abusing you know my equipment, and so I get feedback from them, and I've been on a few different studies and When I was done this morning, I was telling a links researcher that she's gonna need to connect with you, yeah, that's great. They they usually end up finding me and the research community yeah they're a lot of them. Yeah they're all pretty well connected. They also, one of the people in a usually find me northern ready to get into as the days in time you spent around California's bobcat ban. Ryu. You told me some stories about that yeah boy? That's that's a few years of my life. I don't ever want to relive yeah, we'll we'll get into that whole story. I owe in all the thing we gotta talk about, philip

Ah you toward a new one and that play you tore that play a new one. we share the name, but did you guys go see phil? I did. I did not sorry phil. That's fine mindset, I got a couple of feedback points for you. Oh let me hear it and I thought you did a phenomenal job. Is this one of your famous compliment? Sandwiches notice, the insole say what great enterprise where I have a problem is all true comments. Were the insult middle great, going to question technical question. You guys amplified at all your voices oars, whether one armed there weren't garth, brooks head pieces, you notice, etc. I was sitting in a cheap seats thieves and I was too far away to see there. Microphone yea! I would. We ve got a little bit of juice coming through the speakers. I great seats. Middle phil literally brought the roof down

I only hope of roof like you got to have time in which workers are very anxious there till they could get, can gain At times, or got to have time, the current comes down to this principle. for how long stands, up in the hope of the roof, comes down lands on his seat yeah, some of them some of the molding on the ceiling fell during intermission, brought the roof down. They had to tape off like five rows and move. These people are crazy to have the halftime yeah wow. Did he get her? I don't think so. Your list Be careful you have heard that he got up and got up and fell on a c. He got up at halftime and it fell on his seat. Oh, I didn't catch part that he got up: first, cow, great job phil and the second part I felt that the the gentlemen plain scrooge wasn't sufficiently surprise that the arrival of the goats, ok, yeah,

I guess he was ass, coming from very surprising sure, I think he was playing it a little a little loose and more on the the humorous side, then kind of seriously deathly scared yup or you know it is. It is a comment sandwich because it is in fact two criticisms. Oh okay, if you did a phenomenal job, thank you. I felt that he wasn't sufficiently surprised by the arrival of ghosts which would elicit. I imagine quite a response share and the second thing is- and this is this is from a colleague of ours- maggie she likes the goods. Spooky she likes a spooky rendition of. Oh yes, this this was not arabic, yeah, it's a comedic, it was comedic. The only spooky part I'd say is the christmas. Christmas future gets a little spooky, but everything else is very it's. It is a light touch for sure. Yeah committed yeah and that's it that's kinda the first time I've done a version of it. That's a little bit on the wider said

joy! It was good for the kids. Now is there yeah you're right, it's eleven it then they can. They get their attention. One more thing than the spooky erosion gap. Nah scrooge is lacking, looking in looking at that and with their pre christmas present he's kind of look in? That party in her dog anonymous party yeah. Well, towards the end, my daughter whispered to me. If he fixes everything will they still say the mean things about him at the party, its insightful now at smart, I would or had one more or so that was kind of like a neither comment, criticism yet or observation yet, Great thanks! So much for government, I really denial dolly rarely enjoyed. It fell, azure theatre career, just a christmas thing. Are you do like?

shows throughout the year sound of music during the summer, and then they asked me to do that. I think I'm gonna take a long break, because I am tired, tired and have the, but the family is tired. It's a lot of rehearsals yeah, but I'm I'll probably do it again. I like it a lot one could have ever told you, I think, is the worst like the absolute worst rendition of christmas carol is the mother one. Now yeah were michael kane. Employers yeah, you yeah, he's here long periods, it looks like he's not. I Acta is not acting he's just kind of cure all these schemes. prize at the he surrounded puppet, the puppet started to, and he he just zones out. It's like you. They get about. Shitty needs do have your work, I think there are some some moving moments in them. Everybody I see I dared, and I see we're coming from here- some crazy man, check this out. I got a lot and I got a lot of opinions about this one thing to say about this: so there's

A paper does came out a dna that some dna. Work being done on blackberries? They have identified a mutation so that identify the genetic mutations. in blackbirds he found his Jani obedient. You job in the rue fallen down story and following southern about black wheres k, sub muggers. So They have identified a mutation known as are one. Five three see in a gene code, ty rose the knees related protein, one which causes an alteration in the court's pigmentation. makes its fur the same colours. A copper penny, the tar balls and people getting cinnamon bear a genetic mutations that they ve isolated. What it is that creates the cinnamon very

the hint of black bears and interestingly they've figured out when it came into being. Ah I'll put it this way, I'll put it two ways one well put it is that the clovis hunters, probably we're not seeing cinnamon, bears because this mutation seems to have emerged around nine thousand three hundred and sixty years ago. Here's where I could take a pause in this this paper on it's it's it's spreading, okay, it's spreading and it the date. They feel that that the range and distribution of cinnamon bears is growing and it seems to have risen in south west. But our point this out one time, if you look at the prevalence of color phase black bears on a map overlaid with precipitation, you fallen phil, yet.

take a color coded map shows precipitation levels in north America and then you take a map, shows prevalence of color phase bears. There is an astonishing correlation now point out people that correlation. Not causation but wet ass areas? The wetter hyperactive Station areas tend to have more black facebook or tend to not have various bears and when we could look at me like their stick, vegetation lots, shadows, they blend in firms. regulation. Stuff right mean, in how you're fur in the sun cooperated behave.

the same reason in the north. He run black angus cattle in the south. You know where you're trying to keep them warm in the south and that in the one the in in extreme environments, they don't run black cattle, they run cream cattle and red cattle and stuff that don't get as much solar radiation and that that that keeps them warm. So I always saw their different colors down in the south west because of different camouflaging requirements, and also perhaps it's just not hot hotter and balls runner. Now black hair makes sense now- and I don't even know of this- this undoes that the

Here's a call from the paper geography deftly plays a part. Are demographic modeling identified that the most likely place where the mutation arose was somewhere in the western region very? What likely the southwest from there it expanded through jean flow through populations, but even in that slow process it, but even then the slow process with the majority of black bears on the east coast, still sporting jet black for and there looking at the great plains as being a barrier to this gene mutation spreading eastward. Ah,

l bynum wondering the hams albino animals as they go blind and die early like they do and don't live that long, but this mutation doesn't seem to show any signs of visual problems nagoya for talking to a board of dry and stretching board. No, like a board like a pizza. Oh, I speak of microbiologist wrote in this. Is this is good stuff to know a microbiologist wrote in in he. He had some things to say about our conversation we're talk about the advocate of the adequate safety of pooping on the ice. I've just been saving of all my thanks a safer this. I don't. Ok, now pointed out, I've never done this, but I was putting the question like if people talk about just thinkin one, going into the hall and in using you

scooper whatever to try to sink or down sink the cake. I try to sinker down and then get her out of the way so that it just floating up at the surface of the leg, venture would probably sink, and then just on you know you you've gotta, taken care of in that people would know you did it or he can layer right on the ice, which is unsightly, and I was talking about what, if you took your auger and drilled a half hole. So you got. Let's say you have twelve inches ice, you take your auger and you go down eight inches, so you got a four inch buffer scoop that ice slush out yup go defecate. Put that slush and snow back in in in in. put it in a little vault, and I was talking about what it may that that maybe over the end, that extreme environment, the microbes and the nasty

it would get into the water. Wouldn't would would die, probably not, but there was a micro bout wrote him. He says I've decided to write in to correct you on your assumption that the microbes in your poo pile would be killed by making it into a shit slushie using a partially dug ice fishing hole in actuality, your fecal matter, snow cone. Which is packed with bacteria and other microbes, would simply refrigerate, freeze and probably serve the micro organisms and still spring microbes tend to go into a dormant stage, sporulation during extreme conditions and are quite hardy in the environment. Much of the back area in. Feces is a coal why most of which is harmless, but some strange can cause nasty spray able die a real.

specifically, he names one variable, yeah tittering. It can give us by rattled. And there are other microbes and feces that can cause disease. But I think I have something more interesting for you. A condition known as sea diff caused by close stream difficile can be fatal. oh listen to the seas, knocking you down and now he's gonna bring you back our lives, and this will know because list resonate gnarly a condition known as see death with a brain abbreviation caused by close stream. Difficile can be fatal, but my emphasis on board

But it can be readily cured by ingesting the feces of a healthy person as an inoculation does no. No thanks. I like that trip to the doctor where they're like hey, eat this, maybe maybe you can get in. before then he goes on to make a joke and he wrote back to clarify he felt bad after making the joke. He said you gotta, you get home justify pooping and ice vision, holes as a means of inoculating the swimming population proceedeth, which is far more just the Nikola day later an email comes in a thousand joke. Please don't that's a joke now serve. You understood those job, ass, a joke.

Don't do that, though, still the best practice would be to bring a bucket lie with the plastic. and poop, and there do the blue out there. The blue collar scholar sent me an amazing design. We were talking about by and I dont know why that is so. Tommy aids is the guy he's gotta instagram page I've got the blue color scaliger that us are good at the truth. Is we replace tribute? So does he claims he does while he was on the show and deny says me an hour s if no he bombed here, but that, but that I think, there's lots of people they do great at home, but they bother bomb in real measures, its there's, no pressure there. Like I'm raptures, it's your kind life. I think they're like why kind ahead, or like? Oh, that was my first gas, and you know what I mean like no one's really putting the screws to him to like. Actually you know I mean it's in their head, it's in their head, so he's like guy in oil of ill. I guess be illinois,

maybe indiana Yeah indiana, like illinois I go yeah I get a lot of that goes. I definitely yup, and so we legume by these things your anyway you're forces warehouse or wherever the hell and you buy. It's like a blight gauge. Five gallon pail with a snap on the seats compatible any five gallon book, it's a flip top toilet seat and you could get those bags that have that banner hotel. It is, odor killer in it, and you drop one in there and you it's like a big heavy duty. Zip lock were the trash bag joined to it, so you go into the trash back, holds trash bag up. It goes into the zip lockers zip like shake it to get the crystal stuff. If you, if you so please an end, is pretty much archival

No, it's like one of those diaper genies, you know yeah, but then you get back to the you, get back to the boat launch whatever and and and you got one of those Bags- aways Tommy sends me a thing he's a union Then these things are not expensive at times a year to borrow an m expensive, as gets egg he's got a bucket. Its victual yell, five gown bucket later put a garbage bag. Then it hanging over the edge like a trash can then take a pool noodle. and just cut in incision down the length of the pool noodle. So you now have a piece of pipe insulation or take these pipe. Inflation is pre cut and you may little room, a little sit, and ah I was wondering where this was gonna. Make a little citizen or comfort. Was that pipe insulate. I've seen this before yeah yeah, what

I was in the in the landscape in industry. You'd have to get you know, you eat had to put some thought into how you go on sundays and why guys carried out like a bucket the poor noodle you don't wanna vaulted in their landscaping. the airline. Why you're out you like working in someone's front yard again just they opened the bushes very lance upside down. Who's gonna know well just it's? Just everybody walking by the lady by the lady watching you out of the out of her front window is going to know. That's a good point The your journal, oilseed, if we have Of guys I carry ratify, we bucket add that poor little pool middle. Yet you like us, for buying that thing I bought now man how So in that we are in the landscape business, how, where were they deployed said bucket? Why are you doing

deploy in the enclosed trailer or in the the back of the dump like we had all. We all had dump trucks and he'd just get in the back of the dumped yoga, but yeah would you put us? How would people know you're in there he just tell your crew that don't throw any big logs in there for sure, but yeah you're going to take it somewhat or you'd, go right into the tool crib and in the in the in the trailer Yep guy wrote in this is pretty good. This makes me jealous this passes the jealousy test, so it was it. Why was it that trump didn't? Why did he not fight in vietnam? Was a bone spurs right this guy? That's what I thought. So he this guy had bone spurs. He got him cut out and then sentenced

pictures he had his wife earrings made out of his bones, bears no says amazed. The earrings, with his daughter, his daughter, had a earring had jewellery kit and he made a little box says a piece of me for you and nicea crazy little bone spur earrings made out of them whispers come out of his feet. Man I wish I hadn't known about that. I had bone spur surgery a year ago. Did you yeah could add something to remember it by besides just what you do with them pain with every step. I take still your later really, oh god, what you do spurs I currently they just ground em. I didn't realize they'd take them off in one piece: yeah he got his back yet the cleanup upload it now. He asked form, What are the rights in this, the common thing on the show

right soon will say, like I want my stuff back in a kind of like the they they it's like your property. They can't not give it to you. Never, even though that he good thing. This fellow says that his wife says it's. The greatest present she's ever received a liker man, I'll marry her she'd. Probably like some a turkey springs. Hmm, hmm, here's a here's, the tricky one! For me, oh jani, did you have something to add about the ice stuff, then you're saving up for that golf? No, it is but found it fascinating. The guy wrote in about here this is a crazy story that came in recently, and I called I was like skeptical re any guys here. For this note, gay guy. rain. I keep. He ran out of gas. And he had a gas can, but ask: can novel was compatible with the port on his truck

you all our knowledge. Dude now vehicles com, a special funnel dat, was to get through the security south people can't siphoned off. as of aways, he james narrow down in there. Takes the air out of his quiver jams down near to hold the spring flap and then he's like basic poor and gas out of a can. dark down arrow into the gas can in wines up job and his face jab in his eye on the knock on the end of the arrow in pails, his face ended in there. Goes out have all these future problems. Never realising that the knock came off in his. I know eggs, And eventually hawks up a lucky for you,

and a half later yeah those him spit it out, hawks out the knack. So is it it's open assizes. I said I don't know if I'm buying, I said I didn't believe it, but then I would say kind of change. My mind about doktor eleazer road in he buys at ninety nine percent. Only reasons not a hundred of us know. The guy personally wow air or knock entered his f, lloyd, sinus. goes on to say that I read in a bony box, I e orbit with thin bones: making up the walls. The airfield spaces of the interior face a k, a the sinuses lie in close proximity to your orbit. These scientists, as well as the nato crime, old duct. That's right! Folks, you have one nasal. The crime old docked all have driven. It's made me feel like I got a hot cuppa.

our group- and I have now heard out and Amelia pellet baby, your son these scientists, as well as the nasal lacryma dart, all have drainage, have drainage into the nasal cavity, which is anatomically complex. In particular, the f moyne scientist lies medial. I e id line to the orbit in drains into the era, nasal sinuses, which in turn empty into the nasal cavity through the three conquer. The word is pretty incredible contract. the bite us while all arrived, I've fellers things at a out of its own, the azure go had you'll, be some extra surprise. When I'm done who I'm titillated the. It's ok. Every passage are connected to the oral

fur and geo space in the back of the throat. That's all Louise happen now under the arrow. I'm not sure what kind of size knocked the gentleman was using says the doctor or just a piece, the knack entered as medial para orbital space. rest, fell on the ground, either way most common size, knife or sharp narrowed small enough to penetrate that space and the f sinus scientists. I believe the knack penetrated his f moyne scientists, the immune system, reactive and covered the thing in white blood cells. Over time and eroded under the guise of perceived repeat scientists, infections and made its way into the nasal passage in any hacked. Colorful luigi, why state of actual they should have given them a max alone. Facial see tee,

He doesn't want a dog on the facility cause he's not sure what kind of equipment they had Jeez. What a story now or do you think about that? Phil I'd like to formally apologize yeah. I wonder what his eyes would look like at night. If it would have been were those like glow in the dark knox or some It looked like terminator, so I guess I just Imagine going on that long, not no one! so he was having scientists infections for about a year and they still out there. Let's say you, let me walk you through. you drive down the road you, I guess at night, common hoffman ike, impetuous k, they'll make it the gas down. You put the you put an arrow down your porn gas nels. You you impale your face on the arrow. You run around. Oh my god, right, scruciating, pain,. Later. I dunno you have an arrow in the knox missing. Are you going to think like that? Knock is in my head or, if you'd think, like

all the excitement, the knoxville off ear, but I've never savage, saying that. You can't believe there be a knock stock in there and you and say: oh my wilderness, there's a chunk of foreign chunk planning by my head. You remember it the biggest shot by a nail gonna carry the nail around till they found it near. How do I guess happens more often war without you and tat, though, because by worry laws are all drink. Whereas is that due to stop his nails? And I think that their prey points out some people, don't how is way different pain Rational out anywhere on me, like a nail, were not could be in, their body in their kindly I'll, keep it my day that it's just that it's a lot, are you? Are you have your feeling any sort of pressure back there? You probably I got it just the whew dealing at some sort of scar,

The kind injury man I feel I gotta gotten all those kind of exams- amarth worry bobby. Not a commission check this out. This good. You hang in there yeah. That story was this reminded me when I was a kid. I had a mexican jumping bean up my nose for about a year now and has dug it up. There must have yeah. I dunno I went to the hospital a bunch of times bloody noses and eventually big old sneeze come out. It's a story. My mom tells me anyway. about she, otherwise you're my otherwise honest, yeah, yeah, she's, a bigger reality, are we got that fourteen year old, saying ukraine sure do minimum Fourteen years we gotta say in ukraine and texas: panhandle that had been banned did so we're in texas panhandle. It had been banded as in the door. Fourteen years earlier and fair banks alaska, the least fourteen will some modern tenancy now, of course, that was banned in fair banks

and on every gary there, how you and johnny babe and that our net three grown men sat there in argued over who got hot, who shot it to the point that we had to get one band recognition form with three nay. Isn't it yeah? We are always looking only to find out. Why there's a court I like success, has many fathers, but failure is a bastard child. Hmm, that's a good one for him. The scottish got one bandit nineteen, eighty nine he has killed tenancy yeah eleven years younger than me. He got it. Public land, there's a refuge and then some crop yields and outfitters he's the crop yields and they got it on a little public wedge between the refuge in the crop fields.

Why do the math wouldn't need before you you're, not you're, older and thirty? Three I'm I sales in Berlin eleven years younger than lambs are thirty three gold, sandhill crane, what got me? How many spreads is that thing seen man all spreads and coyotes, and what I was thinking about as there's not? Is there anything else that we hunt that even gets close to living that long while bears get twenty years? You know That's really do as an old? Not I d there can if it is,

some kind of waterfowl or like like gators or something the florida ads was anything like that. I bet there's old, ass, gators, snapping turtles or not. I've been wanting to get like a really really good. Alligator expert on the show, a really good alligator expert yeah that parker could find that forest since he's down there in that neck of the woods, you're extremely good, send an email to us that says x. The subject line would be extremely good, alligator expert and will no internal colonel is funny from wonder, is a bobcat on the loose and long island and of all ok, let's say earth, they're they're, very they're, nervous about the bobcat being on the loose in long island and none other than Martha. Stewart has

none other than Martha. Stewart has a thing about how to save yourself in the event yearning encounter this bobcat Webster frantically, trying to fight what was the second article, as are the wild magazine or with the more deaths between you and the cat. The better reads: the website bobcats in particular, usually do not attack humans. However, one does attack you your best chance of survival is defend yourself and call for emergency medical care as the animal may have rabies. Legs more than the more distance between the better re. The first person who saw was as they were looking at a links. It was huge and looked very exotic wow what else as bought it as bought it. It's a lot of questions about that, one like where it came from

It got their stuff. I mercy ready, dig in man, yeah sure disco, how first off. Why did you state? Why are you still in california here right? If your whole life been trappin bobcat work and, in california out right flat out. digress from it. Anyone who does not believe in the slippery slope needs to believe in the slippery slope. No doubt she look like you know and the early ninetys they took away steel jaw traps made us use rubber package. us and then a ninety eight took away foothold traps altogether and then ah I think it was two thousand and thirteen the dust up over the cage trapping incident that they got. The ban started in the legislative action you know was the next nail in the coffin and they they end up. Banning

Bobcat trapping altogether, you know even with kate traps and then just a couple years after that, then they went after trap altogether, you know any they said you know. If you read the legislation, it was like you know. Well, there's Barely any trappers anyways in You know their their numbers, don't justify. You know what it costs. A department to you know maintain. You know a trap, season and these animals have. You know more value to the public. As you know, viewable nature you know, and so then they got trapped and completely and at the same time they went after bobcat. Hunting, which was all that was left, it still hot bobcat right up until ha figures December thirty. First. I wanted to be one of the last peopled ever hunter. California, bobcat legally cause the legislation they pay.

It required a five year population study to be done in the state and starting january? First, two thousand and nineteen. I believe it was the just will start at five year study to justify you know the harvest of bobcats rang in once, once they take something away, they never give it back so we're in the five year study right now we're in five years, yeah what's going to happen during the five years. Oh, and were you the last guy to get one you know I might have been? I I went out. I I I saw that on facebook I shot one about ten thirty at night. Who knows I might have been. then sent an email says. Mercer is wrong I eleven. and then yes alert suppose they're do in some sort of camera trap work. Stay wide and they alone they bought some cage ass. For me as well, I drove up sacramento drop. More often, and I know the dude

dude that I dropped him off where they use like a fisheries guy, and he was going to be in charge of the population study. I I didn't leave there with a whole lot of faith that you're not going to the bag you'll never get a bag, even if they come back and say: oh yeah, you know that because they estimated population of california between seventy and one hundred thousand bobcats right ill, and so when you tell them that the you know all through all through all those legislative actions, the when you tell him that you know we're harvesting like anywhere from three hundred to twelve hunter bob gets a year height in the entire state right. You know back back during the fur boom you know the highest years around eight thousand bob cats, but on average forty, five hundred or so during those the fur boom years, and they a booming dog about you know then mid seventys to out eighty seven fur boom with capital, often be he area and then all through the nineties, in that you know, the harvest was to three hundred bob gets and so out of us.

Made a population of one hundred dollars yeah. If you look, if you go all the way, what is it seventy to one hundred to one hundred thousands, what game and fish saying now? But if you look back when all the states had to come up with an estimated population for their state. Further cities. When, when bobcats got listed on cities, all the states had to come up with some estimated number either habitat modeling stuff. I got, I think the number at that time was like seventy eight thousand, their california and so on. Just so people are unexplained. Do you think society is like an international legates international wildlife, ragged regulatory thing, which my There is moving. Moving wildlife species from one country to the next there's a treaty, the siamese treaty. So, for instance, if you go down and hunt which mainly on you always get screwed up, the viewers were to go down and hunt oscillated, turkeys and mexico. Anyone to bring parts of that turkey back home with you, you would need to do. The cities were feel what and SAM hill is that behind you.

What oh, I have no idea. It was in a studio. It was on the table here and is just getting in our way, so we set it over there on the desk. It's it's a o norman at school, oh no, I do need to see that we're was that your ip right and what is was obsidian, half or glass, looks like obsidian give it although it looks like last two, are looking at an arrow for the people listening while I'm waiting on my clovis thrusting spear, oh gotcha. So where was I talking about saudis? Oh, it's, glass, I was wrong then, yet another yet of modeling. Just look just real quick snapshot, how modeling works Let's say you know.

was he wanted to count up deer in a county or a state or a country wherever you might go like okay and good habitat. So, unlike usable habitat, we tend to see ten deer per square mile than you go like well. How many square miles of good suitable habitat? Do we have okay, we'll times that by that it's like in a very like an actual modular would be annoyed by my by quick summation, but that's basically what that is, and when you top up, modeling, so they're, probably looking at some like habitat density in space, and you work it all out and that's what you got yeah for sure. It's it's pretty it's pretty detailed from visiting with biologists. To, like I mean even got they've got people the job title called. By imitation, we have heard one of those. No, I got a combination of biologists and a mathematician statistician and there are the ones that that really get deep into the numbers and they can take

A small amount of data and turn it into a lot of data, so yeah, Saying that California came in with a prediction of seventy eight thousand bobcats and harvest was at what So, during the eightys the average harvest, the fur boom was somewhere in the forty five hundred neighbourhood. If you take about a dozen years, their general, the high of in eight thousand california was a. the nation? During those times it was where a lot of state hoppers ended their season? You know they'd they'd trap the cold or country and an up in the innovation and rain. Of never nevada really cause? I don't think they ve ever allowed non resident by trap, and I could be wrong, but you know they'd work their way through arizona and finish up mean them hobby, desert. California, where I live, ha yeah When you talk about it, never come back. The regional never come back as his people will always you'll always build a do. The trick in lit again

mission where people will sue. and they ll say, but you haven't accounted for. Now now the magical thing is, you haven't accounted for climate change. Now, though, move the goalposts near posts, you'll never see it again. The, the big argument, the thing they push all the times? Oh well, we know there's plenty of bob gets in California, we're not arguing that what we're arguing is that there's no way to control all the trappers working in one area depleting resource values laid location, yeah, yeah and then, of course, when you say all trappers, you talked about a toll of anywhere from six hundred and twelve her bobcats during you know. That's what I call the case trap days right, so we lost our foot traps and ninety eight, and by about two thousand, two thousand two guys were experimenting with use. Kate traps to catch bobcat washes data, arizona, colorado. I believe all three lost their fuddles before us, so they were already further down the road using kate shouts, robot cats thing

California was thus cavern amazing era, fur it was sore in in those early ninetys that lay eighties early ninetys. It was so surprised Looking back, how many hits hunters and trappers took in those years. as I think he was like pete was beginning to take shape. It was kind of amazing that that you'd think that, like suffolk, that happens now, but people took a lot of hits legislative hits back then yeah between ballot initiatives, which are just there just to they're, just a horrible thing, a balance issues and legislative actions to manage wildlife is. This is just horrible. The truth is the first victim. When you get into those situations to this man

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ability in turns at sportsbook, dot, draftkings dot, com, slash football terms. I want to go back to the beginning with you, but why why? How would you not just be like okay, nevermind, I'm leaving so ah along the course of losing everything right, losing the cage traps and the next we lost the bar get hunting and trapping completely and now I believe its january first, so in a week or two, the state wide ban on for the sale of any any fur garments unless its use old for any new for garments. Statewide, I believe, goes in effect this january, and so your original you were talking about you know I think, you're at your santa

Thousand cuts type of thing. You know slippery slope, slippery slope, I'm yells, encouraging people to believe and slippery slope. So yeah it's way when you have a state like california, this totally controlled by one party, you didn't have a chance. You know I saw some ugly stuff when I was in the first first bob catch up, and yet you became your republic figure in that fight. You know fight you. Kind of got it from both eyes a little bit I had. I had trappers that didn't like me wanted to blame me for four: Isn't it? You know, because I was promoting cage, trapping and selling keto products and get people started and ah and then, of course I got it from they antis cause. I was the only you know. I was the public figure they couldn't trapper got some trouble.

Trapping around. He was a marine that was stationed at a base down there and I sold him equipment and I got him started and he started trapping between home and work and and what was in between. There was joshua tree national monument and which you know is surrounded by. You know a lot of people that don't that wouldn't agree with the way we live our lives. You know andor, he got a, he got a trap found that was on a piece of private property and that that you know california laws, you've gotta your land or be told to stay off in also private property law. He was doing wrong or was it not just pisa, is just keep oath, open desert that haven't we private some guy found it took it to the local newspaper office and a year later, there's billboards up in california to ban bobcat trap, and you know something in a cage. Knows the empty trap? But you know at the same time were were

You know on the internet, post, pictures and facebook and all that sort of stuff, entrapping forums. Ah, that you know, I guess the argument can be made it. You know, don't do that stuff. I guess that's what the guys it! You know what kind of blaming me for it all you know for you know make public god and because so yeah I was the public. Or did you know how much do by that? That would have continued if someone had no aside or by at all that it would it continued right there, they're gonna, get it no matter. What is just a matter of time but those actions. At that time we was the catalyst to what end up happening. But if it had been at it would mean something else, and you end up with death threats our get. Now trappers, no

no other was one particular chapter that I was just a little bit fearful of it. He had. He had been in trouble many times as game and fish. He went. He wasn't a very good dude, but yeah yeah. I got a few letters in the mailbox saying somebody's going to come. Kill me. I had the ah those those people down Jobs are treated their merriwig Giles man, I'm in here, they're, whack jobs, scary, candlelight, whack, job By man's and type happens, just like some guy made a compile asian video and put on youtube of my vehicles and me and my kids all like pictures of us. You know and saying hey. If you see this guy there were. I wasn't even the chapter that started all this. I was just the guy that sold this other dude some some traps, but somehow they, you know just pick me out and

I think I called the f b. I at one point saying: hey: I'm getting these letter saying somebody's going to come, kill me Hannah. They told me what does it say a specific time and place? I said it just says, are going to come, kill me. He said: well, we can't do nothing about it. That's what he told me. That's horse shit man because I had to say I had a. I call the f b. I bought a guy one time. He didn't give a specific thing. He made him. He made a reference to my kids. They went through the guy's garbage for awhile surveilled him. This is the guy lived in ohio went there is trash. one day, call me to say he ordered a pepperoni pizza. Now vegetarian, an eventual visitor work there s the air, the live in shit out of our land use some of the areas that I won't be here. They said they came and said they were you'll, be here mom again not allowed to get some of that kind attention back then they took you're serious, wasn't like hey on monday at noon, kill you out from your house

that's what they're saying you had to have yet with said here. Is the Hamas specific time place posting, a bunch of videos about your cars and stuff is insufficient era. Hopefully, man I mean that I'll be your line. I think some, a blue yoffe, they pray, bobcat trappers talent, pretty easy to find those have people in California. So but as far as why you want. But what did you wind up doing yeah we're going to get to why he never moved, but when you had these threats on, what were you doing? I I didn't. I didn't take him to terror. Series I did set out in the bushes a few nights. You watching your house, but it wasn't it wasn't too Well bad it just. It was just an ugly time and those those people are ugly. I mean they can they can hate bob. Drab and all they want, but man they're, just nasty people, not that very good guy

People, you know you have a right all right in the world to do not like what I do but don't go there. I tell my kids all the time you know you can be sure you can be angry, but you're not allowed to be nasty yeah the moral high ground. Sometimes though, especially politics doesn't get anywhere. So why does it work? Why don't you be like just below here? Monitor shoot. You know your homes, your home, I got all my family there. My wife has all family there now my daughter's going to college in California. So now I think there are at least three more years. I've been all over the wes. You know I've been a illogical places. I right here right now, but I had this. I never found a place that I just was dinah go live and you know

I ended up and in the mojave desert back in high school, and you know we have rivers efficient, donno, turkey's no real good dear. I knows nothing, it was just coyote bob get home and so I've just. you have spent the last almost four years now, there's a winner that goes by that I dont pursue thawed cats with every ounce of passionate I have Was the tory sylvan it? How did you get into it, then? here was a bit into it, because the fur market was so high. Bob cats, in particular, trappin in travelling hutton yeah yeah. I was a hunter for many years before I didn't you,

set a trap until we were already into the rubber jaw in the early nineties. Oh you think so. He didn't grow up trapping no, no yeah! I was in highschool and eighty four I graduated. I think that year me and a buddy, so I found up a giant stewart cassette tape in the china hutch that was dad's from when he used a coyote hunt a henna as many outlets, as you know, so as for conan, so me and my buddy went and ah, temporarily barodia, when the little two players from the library to high school yeah what legal or carry stirabout yea. I order you are doing and we the desert afternoon and in thirty an hour. Winds and turned on at johnny stewart cassette and picked up the top of the hill and waited for gallo that one can end up with

there hasn't been a winner ever since that I haven't you gone after coyoats and bob gets with everything I had Both the main years when you were when you really got into like the production, bobcat work, though so Oh you know. I was here a lot about bobcats at night, because we had. We are pretty good bobcat hunting season and that we can hunt at night in california and in that mojave desert. As you know, it can be pretty productive. You know I could shoot. I think my highest year, I almost broke seventy bobcats just hunting at night and there bob cats, you know what you're talkin earlier about the about the the color vase bears in and-

You saying the darker ones are more, where it's more human moraine and everything for thicker cover, well, yeah and and so with bobcats, when you're. Looking for good bobcat country, you tend to look for open country, you know the color, the soil and ice and brown when you get up in a country like this, where you got your your timber and stuff darker stuff, then you end up with a bobcat. That's got a lot darker fur on the back and stuff, and so when you're in, like the basin and range country of of nevada in the mojave desert, California, you have a lotta. Lot of sunlight hits the groundwater brown ground. ground cover, and so you end up with a much more pale bobcat, which is where the money so I live somewhere where there was some pretty darn ice bobcats and they still have the big links great bellies autumn. Two, they white, spotted bellies

Well, my bobcats were alive. Yeah, oh yeah, pure white, pure white, with well defined little tiny black spots, yeah they're, they're they're, not heavy enough for because it's not cold enough to to rate among the best country you know like wyoming bobcat or somebody idaho cancer, the high high desert of say. Let's, let's say you don't have that, though, have to to the, but but as far as a white fur with well defined spots, the other pretty good quality cat, that's the real shame losing losing calve eastern california. We were we ve tax at a fair bit about them market, like what that fur market has looked like at times he talk through some of the highs do you like you mention we're talking. Yes, do you mentioned like some pretty sizeable yeah catches, you had, you know, like alike, in terms of financial value,

but what were these that always surprised people to hear what what bob cats have been valued acts as no other things, even approach the valuable bobcat and yeah you're in the fur trade you're done outsiders being a list of species? And that's that's only cause it's. I believe what is referred to as a look alike species so the only spotted cat they can be sold for industry, god and because there's other spotty cats. It are protected they and put in the bobcat on the society's got it. well that and soldiers there's been desire and attempts over the years to get it taken off their lives, but you'll never see that, but so That's what I do know it's while longer disinterest, yeah, I'm pretty sure, am accurate on how it works, but. yeah the over high cats always get all the attention. You know.

You know you hear about a sixteen hundred dollar bobcat. You know they got sold it for sale or you know whatever the high cat of each sale. Is you know the guys do that for advertisement for buyers and stuff, but really what you have to look at is the is the average price of of for sales. You know like words, what's the average bobcat and yes, some of those averages are. Ah, you know, if, like with the fallon nevada for sale, is always a good one to look at it's a real long running for sale, where a lot of the best for in the nation end up. You know stuff that doesn't get bought in the country and or ship to the canadian auctions. A lot of the best stuff ends up at that felon for sale, and they keep a. Local record there. You can look at it every year when you're at the sale. I think I sent you a picture, I do about it yeah, and you can look at years. I I don't know all the years

I blend together but there's a age and I think twelve, thirteen may two thousand twelve. Thirteen was a real high year. If I remember you know, like I dunno four hundred and fifty dollar averages you know like like they sell like two thousand cats at that sale and average prices. Three, fifty three, eighty, something like that. You know for fifty, but but what makes The news is the than the one cat that soldiers. Sixteen hundred bucks. You get your say they do that canada. They do that generate hype yeah they want their native business. Now you're yours. If you had a high, at the sale, always take a picture with the with the buyer, the bought it in and he gets his name, but it gives people excited o. Definitely you, like here the bobcats over sixteen hundred bucks yeah, that's all you here. You know, I think I think last year. Theirs the little bit a good news last year and the free market and this year is expected to be at least there's no bad news, and I was just talking to a guy this morning, a fur buyer. He said well,

Initially they were saying, prices might take up just a little bit cause are opening up the markets and their figure out how to get around the the whole russia thing you know they are expecting a little bit. the tick up this year, but it may or may not happen. You knows it. You gotta, take everything affair, Our tells you with a great sought. You know, member So is a little bit of a more of a story to what they're telling you what there I need to believe in our and with me They kind of want me to repeat something: you know like the they'll make sure they they tell me something they want repeated. You know oh yeah, because I am there's three or four or the main for buyers in the hole in the west and I I too am all pre, regular and euro trapping affluent their lot time. Well, a lot of times I'll get a little bit of a plant with me. You know that their one for buyers open, I repeat, to another forbear. You know I think that goes on.

what I do I understand by donor standing, but will they be pushing to have out their gimme that for an hour you know like, for instance, One one guy, my report that he a certain number on a certain great cat. That's what he's plan on buying at you know an open. Maybe that gets to another for buyers to what end. Other always playing games, novel variety. What what? What would he be after out of our to sue? He'd, be after that? The buyer? percent. What would he be hope in the other buyer would do it could influences buying? Maybe you know meaning that he's gonna pay less than that makes more available. Maybe I'll get it may be, is going to pay less and in the other guy you know, has a better shot at other cat. Is that as this I gotcha get there always their ways gossip in talking about each other stuff, it, sir It's? U can get kind of fun. Sometimes have you forgotten that business very briefly,

very briefly, that the one guy here in Montana he had me he was going to have me, buy for him at a at a for sale that in arizona that I was helping put on and at the last minute his daughter ended up showing up who's. pretty she pretty bad ass woman. He didn't read her some day: earnings liberty, courtroom, she's, she pretty cool but she's of her by her. She flew out too. To help me by but yeah. I was a nervous wreck. Oh really yeah, oh god yeah! He gives me a bunch of jackson tells me to The best gets the butler there. You know, do no good care. When you see one I know a good girl, I see one I don't know like they see you, but time, I've I've carried the clipboard for love them for buyers. You know I'd stand next to it still and write down the numbers that they're telling me for you know: you're the catch Elaine on tables in lots. You know little groups for each trapper and stuff and they're gone Through great no measure on looking over and they'll come up at a price

Whispered to me a ride on the clipboard, you know, and more than once, with more one for a buyer, I've I've gone down two or three. You know lots on the table and as I missed. I missed that number on lot. You know one ninety, eight and so we'd back backup five feet and go over there and I'll be darned. If you didn't come of the completely different price yeah. It's very. It's very much you'd like to think that it's that there's this you know like rules and and there is a technique that they look at. You know measuring the width of it.

link the bitch. You know the color of the for the definition of spots, all that stuff, but there's also very much a human component to it. You know they either just they can fallen over the cat just emotionally like it and are not like it, and you know some for buyers. You'll see him painstakingly measuring every single cat, you know and just really being precise, with their grading and other guys have handled. You know hundreds of thousands, the curt furs at his grab. It flip it over once flip it over again. Look it up and down. They might brush the for with their hand, one time to see how it's going to lay when it's on a garment. tell your number to write down, you might not know you're sitting in the presence of a top lot. Yeah, I think I remember that from our blood parker redress or moors subtle top lots for people over the years rattle What makes a sixteen hundred dollar gap.

We saw all the money in a bobcat is in the belly right, the width of, though of the belly, the whiteness of the billy there's money in that that color line from the side fer to the white so where the site for comes down and blends into the white for the more pale it is there, the the it doesn't really make the belly any wider, but it it's more usable fur right, because you can use a little bit of that site for you if you're talking about a belly coat, you know Eighty thousand dollar all belly bobcat coat. You know that's gonna, be all white fur and so the wider, the width of that white belly. That further is going to go on a coat square inches of just happened to be out and about downtown bozeman, and you see a coat that is pretty much stark white with small. black spot does not really go to see their co uk

I saw I saw something similar to that and bozeman. I think it's one you see in someone from Houston who's at a ski resort, in colorado, I could be or biggest airbags guy, but wait, that's what you're seeing is if it's a white coat with black spots at the belly bobcat coat depend on. If it's a full length coat or a jacket, you know, jack is going to be cheaper right, No, but I'm saying that's like that's the fur yeah valiant, there's, not another animal that would produce a similar. Out of the fur market, no Frank was as suit up called. The russians were real interested in you tell me about yeah I it was around two thousand and eight. There was pretty good cap prices in one of the for buyers, told me that there was a a sable coat and that was trimmed in bobcat

the oligarchs bash. All the all the russians had to have what I remember. The story was only about a seventy five hundred dollar coat in us money, but there has been a long time since I had to repeat that story, but martin fur sable line of bobcat sable with bobcat trimming around the curves and the collar, and Maybe the lapel out annoyed and actually see one, but that that was what was driving the fur industry that you're the bobcat market Will you not tell these boys, but this tell him You tell me about what the rough on a cairo. When you have your hood, yeah, ok, coyote trim hood yeah. I had no idea Yeah, so what they want they sell in the bar in cairo for what they call a rough is at length, ways on the cairo for its around the carryover. Oh so like going from the head towards the like it reminds me of looking at a I or the the diagram of butcher. A cow from is always from the side in it,

as you know, the different cuts goya so picture of a coyote like that and what their selling is is roughs and a good you big, montana highlights cairo. I've heard can have as many as five raw. you know, and so, if you were to picture that rough on the hood of your coat like those canadian goose cozier make him for a while so the topic. If you had your hood on the top of your hood would be the back for and ass. You go around left, right, left and right down to your throat. It would go side for now towards belpher. That's hot, don't know the dude update, so my daughter gotta do she got it. She got a little winter coat that has a fake coyote thing on it, but I'm gonna do it in a real coyote we cannot take it about taken my first light chamberlain. Oh yeah, you can chamberlain already tried. I just told you that member now listen, I sent it to some. I owe you tell me if all you tell me about this ascent,

I sent a chamberlain to semi with a with a nice coyote and or you didn't tell me that she tried to put it together, and she said that just the hood opening is too small, and if you were to attach that caught that rough to it, you would get so tight that you know you'd be like just looking out of a teeny, tiny hole said. The opening of the hood has to be bigger to make the rough work. Sounds like you need a coyote from lower country with less for short for yeah arizona as they caught it. That way. Did you know that did not know that I hope I don't get you a bunch of emails on that, but I'm ninety nine percent sure that's how that works. Probably like everything has products. Sometimes it's that way, and sometimes it's different, but when I do it, that's how I'm doing it yeah yeah it makes much is that five rough montana cairo worth five rough I think, there's probably an anomaly. I think you're looking at more three or four us, but Tom.

You know when Canada goose was building all those codes before they switched over to plastic for them montana, coyotes the highlight couch for you know, hundred hundred and thirty dollars that drove the It's a crazed that drove the market or right now the darn yellowstone movies is her. Tv show is driving the beaver. you're crazy orders for forty or fifty thousand beaver built right now. In order to make all that wall fell. Problems stem make. Others failed hats here, that's all of them, be better hollywood. I would realise what they're doing better, headed in the spring, you ever the hat or market. Still it's like not much money, spry. Still, ten bucks for the pelt for the beaver area. So why me through how in caliph

when you what happened. They got you in to designing and like creating camp trip cages. Well, so ever since high school, I work has she most of which I am a boning at some point, it's sheet. Metal is what you would call dry, side, heating and air, so not the plumbing side, but you know heating and air contractor, and so I was I've been a fabricator forever, and so ah I was trapping out and a few bob cats in the late nineties an early two thousands and I was going to that nevada foresail, all the time and I met. I met a dude name radiating. Who is, I guess I call my k, trap and men organize a california guy and him and his his body at the time had Hedda. He'll following the ninety eight trap, and they started experimenting with case traps and encourage traps that naked,

somehow put a lot of him in the back of their truck. You know and, down because they in northern california they come down to my desert trap, and so, if you think about a single cage trap, that's all completely built. You can't fit very man them in a pickup truck so they started experimenting with gettin bob gets to go into narrower kay, is because up until then, it was you guys are mostly using like raccoon traps. You know like eighteen by eighteen, kate traps right. There wasn't there was that there was an outfit in nebraska who was starting to design an in built, specific bobcat case traps. You know, but me You guys are just using those errors available and these two guys trying to figure out how to build how to come up with something that they could fit a bunch of a minute truck and they come over the collapsible design and initially, and then that they went to a design. Were they nest one inside the other and one is slightly smaller than the other one. You can cite him inside.

And so when I met him, they were starting to become successful about two thousand two with successfully case rapid bobcats in those narrow cages right so like teenage wide cage. Ninety two: why cage eight inch wide cages, which I don't think anybody else was doing. at the time. I could be wrong, but I saw after meeting him. I bought one of his cages and I and I bought some of the cages from the guy in Nebraska and yeah. Immediately the fabricator me was like whack, I can build stuff that are nis and so of course, I did ah started building them myself. Just for my own personal use, because reid had what was called the california cage trap company and he was selling keys, trust, but eventually I told him all never sell occasion till you know till you're down with it. Whatever

and it was a very long that he couldn't keep up his older guy and he didn't like building and ship enemy can keep up. So he star started telling people to call me and at the same time, trapper made a video. on case trap and bob a buddy foxes, a buddy, my nevada, and he put me in his video, not me personally, but he was doing it where he didn't even need to be doing it right, yeah he's a huge Mostly for foxes, and then there was a in California. We him work to close friends at that point. There was a guy in California. They did the actual bobcat cage trap in part. For that dvd, he at the end of his dvd. He put my name and number on her, and so I just fell into it. I never did it and knew I had. I had well paying. I had good paying jobs, all those years. I wasn't doing it for the money my manager was getting so it's enjoyment out of a I mean what,

really. What really tickles me flows my boat is, is trying to build something better, trying to make it better and better and better and and try to develop ways to get the bobcat into the cage you know visits. That's always such a challenge. Yellows. I just don't want to go in there. Yet. Can we get into that a little bit at a good time cause I'm wondering how you get I mean: could you fit a twenty five, under into eight inch by inch cage. Is that the two big if you're, saint, eight by h, mean eight inches taller. I would say no with yet right and long, eight inches wide. yeah. So language fire. If I say my tunisia are so like mine, the traps I builders the big one is eleven inches wide and twenty inches tall, and what goes So I doubt one, which was the big challenge for me and accomplishment was to make a cage, though

fit inside there that only had a one, its size break so from eleven. It goes to ten by nineteen, so Levin by twenty lebanese. Why? Twenty just all and intended is wide nineteen inches taller, it's insider and inside out one is a nine by eighteen and insideout. One is eight by seventeen, so you have four cages that only have four inch difference in the in the size. So did you sell those? As then they like get the animals. Commenting is a set of three ok yeah, don't that smallest cages, not always the most popular is popular in the desert. End goal is like you're saying is just so that a trapper can carry more yeah. I mean I run. Well tiny toyota, with a cross bed tool box, and I can still fit fifteen cages in there. You know yeah. It's the only way that you can be productive, sure afield. So how do you get that bob go in there? He don't want. I don't know I made no less now than I did twenty years ago when I started this. That's that's the challenge with those bob catch. You know their voice.

Just can't figure him out. You never will, and I used to say you know bobcats bobcat, no nomad you know like wherever you go, but I've I have enough customers in different states and I've trapped enough different states. Now that that's not true, you know, they're influenced by their environment, neville availability, pray, you know the temperatures and I was trapping in the in the mojave desert and there's just something about cage trap. Bobcats down. There is just easy at you're, you're you're exposed to a lot of bobcats. First of all, right so there's higher densities dependent on you know how your droughts going and whatnot you know, there's always the droughts really hard on them, but so you're exposed you have more opportunities to catch bob. Yet so you catch more, but they're just more likely to go in, and then you know that I had dinner with that local trapper last night. He uses my cage traps right here in montana, and he said

Man he's really having a rash of walk bys. You know where they just walk by in front of the cage. I mean. Don't even pause just literally walked past. It the wise he's in a cage. Ah, you know, I don't know exactly they're the very there there easier to keep operating in in the snow, then digging out foot traps are you have you got two feet of snow, you can set a cage, and so long as like the country you guys live in is just friggin cold all the time, and so the doors don't freeze up. But where were the cage trap doesn't work is when you get, you're freezing snow or at warms up during the day, forty degrees, and then it you got that water on the on the door that freezes at night and then your your cage froze. So it's not it's not a perfect system, but ah you can keep them working in the snow. Explain explained baiting luring one, so he goes into a cage yeah. I think what the biggest mistake that true

brewers, young and old make. Is they think too much like a human being with a cage travel not to disrespect? Animal, I I love and respect you know all sorts of wildlife, especially the bobcat, their fascinating creature, but they're just an animal You know that their there only capable they never had an original thought in her life right. There only capable of reacting like a wild animal would write. You see guys on the internet. Talk about you, know, sprinkling, feathers, out further cage and put Misting urine on the front of their cage to hide their human santon. You know hanging a flag up in the tree. You know those are all things that the bobcats to act to and none of those reactions are going to cause a bobcat to become interested. What's inside the cage trap right,

if you go, I I you know, put a bunch of feathers from the feather pillow in front of the cage to get them excited. You know was that caused him to do that, causes him to smell a bunch of you know: sanitized, sterile feathers that came out of a whoa in front of your katy smells a couple of them, maybe one of them flutters in the wind and he goes over there and puts his pawn. It smells it and it didn't trigger anything. Naturally, right so compare that to let's say in within your case trap. You have feathers from whatever legal. Where you were living, you know, say: pheasant feathers. You know So like one of the things I do after I bet occasion put soil in the trap, I'll take whatever

it amusing that said, beaver or a pheasant, carcass and and I'll scrub, the soil just inside the door. Opening of the cage like scrub that bait and they're now imparting those natural odors into the floor of the trap. Before I hang the bait in the back okay, so now the bobcat comes and visits his cage cause. Most of them will walk over to him visit this thing that wasn't there last time they come through. It's this weird rectangular square thing you know, so the curiosity of curious natures is going to cause them to come, start smell in it, and then they smell the ground and there lay off pheasant you haven't. I

present a you know, and they maybe take one step in because there's a few feathers in there that caused them to trigger. Naturally to it. You know, I think it is. I come. You know like a a storefront window right. You have the mannequin there on it with address on it and you're walking down the street with your with your wife. She not thinking about dress, but then she sees the dress in the window and now she's. All she can think about is dress right, as I am trying to trigger them to want to investigate inside the case, so I'm trying to use natural odors within the trap, the cause that stuff that I do out of the cage. Some of it has values like a flag, some guy you go, I gotta, do you, I'm I'm making a bobcat set. So, therefore, I need a flag right, a feather hanging in the tree or whatever a city that say well know a flag has a job. The job of the flag is too is to try to pull a cat over to your set that you don't expect

to already be there now so like we're, we raise your seat Their born the wind from way often go for it! Yesterday, in those thick trees, you know a flag, wouldn't have a whole lot of value right, you're, going to want to put your your set right where that bobcats gonna walk anyways. But if you have, you know some fairly open country out from your cage, you have a big hill next to where you're setting and you you expect. Maybe a bobcat would be up there on that hill in the rocks or what have you and you can't necessarily get the cage where you want and where you expect the bobcat to be well, then you'd use a flag, you know and then cause him to come over to see the flag and then becomes interested in the cage. So everything you do outside the cage has a potential to. distract the cat. You know I remember when I was film and for one of my dvds. Ah I had a trail camera set and I caught a big tom bobcat in this case trap and the next day I sit at my tripod, my movie camera. You know, and I was I took the bob get out a key

imagine. I was laying it down in front of me, and you know I was filming myself you're talking to the camera yeah, I'm the great draper in the world. You know I just cut this big bobcat and is how you do it, and I I left the show camera on there, and a few days ago by I never got anything else inside I picked it all up, took to choke hammer home and an eye with a video of this went. What I was guessing was a female bobcat come to that set location and she spent like three and a half minutes smelling every square inch of soil were that Tom had been laying in front of the real or yeah, never even looked at the gate, trap, so you're gonna with enough stuff like that happening one thing, I always tell trappers, like never polar cage, trap out a trap bed to dispatcher animal right figure out a way. Not to do that. I stand my case shut up in the end. It we don't you tyler dispatch, but what you when you drag that cage out, you know want to drag it out, turn sideways. Take a picture jonah you just

dragging all that wonderful odors out of the cage bed onto the ground in front of in front of the trap. You know, if you let's say you dispatcher bobcat in the cage and you pull it out late from your trap and take a take a picture. You know. You're just causing a you know, confusion for next scatter a distraction. So so, when you ask about how you get a cat into a cage, there's a big list of votes and then a few do. You know that you, you always want to make sure that they do eighty six years and over fifteen million acres later ducks unlimited, with our volunteers and supporters, continue to lead the way for the future of water family with obtaining a local of it or joining our volunteer to you too. can play a role in the next fifty million acres visit.

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and she of Sunday fourteen remain, but only two will make it all the way. The road to civil did these seven competing with the end of sea and air seemed championship gates presented by into a terrible tat, sunday january twenty, not visit Annabel. That problems lie schedule, but our schedule hit me with a dubious I'm a big proponent of skunk paste. You know in so you can either put scott. You were gonna, pusher cage up against a tree trunk. Let's say you, dismissal, scum paste on that trunk before you put your cage up against I live in the desert, so I always just dig a little hole with my hand where the where the very back of the cage would be like just beyond the pan, and I put my skunk pace in there, as I think skunk- for for almost all the stuff that we trap on land and and

people. It's it's like your hey something happened over there. I better go check it out. That's what skunks melias too, to all that the uk It's bobcats, and you know I mean you guys spent so much time and to feel I'm sure you smell of smell, the scant you you might have walked towards Just to see you know what happened to her. You know some got killed or whatever, and it does the same thing for for predators. So you know I'm a big proponent that and you're having natural odors inside the cage to cause him to want to. You know enter the trap. Are you investigating those? Voters you're trying to change their mind right. They come up to the cage. Maybe they will. Hopefully they smelt it. So another one that I'll? I do, and I know some of this stuff I learned from them. People need dimensional their needs, their needs. it, but you know a guy in colorado, taught me about thermals. You know that you guys know about them. Serial killers and all that I'm from the dead, I don't really know all about thermals, but the time of day, when the bob guess most active is going to be

you know the twilight hours late afternoon, all night and early in the morning when the thermals are going downhill, and so I can't tell you how many cage traps I've seen that were pointed up a wash and I'll go up past them and set my cage pointed down the wash. So then, when the bob- it gets there during the time of day, when he's most active is the low light conditions, the thermal is going to be going down at wash. So when he approaches the front of the cage, the orders hit him right in the face now he triggers on those orders. He knows to follow them right, so low,

his guys have sent me pictures of bobcat tracks in the snow and stuff on the side of their trap. You know the bobcats trying to get to the to the source of the odors are the bait from the side? Will chances are that's where he smelling it? Coming from? You follow me on with you, so he stand it. He stand at the front of the cage and nothing triggers him. Naturally, are you brushing in your your cages and yeah? What's what's his set? Look like like when you, when you set one, so you know in the desert, you could spend ten minutes embracing it looks like you threw toothpicks on your cage. You know the leaves, so that's a very different set than the majority of people majority of travers or tavern. You know heavier country so, and a lot of guys have to deal with snow right. So up here, you guys would have to be putting plastic bags over the top your trap, or even put your cage in a chat plastic bag, maybe finding ledges that are south facing that have dirt so that you can be under the ledge keeps

both. So you really have no choice, as are the guys in the northwest kind of use, a a dark hole, mentality to their cage, trapping slyke. You know, throw a paper bag on the floor and your housecat just goes for wonder why the hell does honour goes in a dark, or so those guys gonna. Think of trapping like that, and that is not all how I mean that's just where I lived. We we couldn't do that. We didn't need to the bobcats just go right in so there was a a period of time when I thought we all know the difference of yours. I gotta call rattle and I have to let's have a lot of visits with. No no cats go an annual anna. I started using more bait because I think they're more calorie, driven in in the cold or country in the desert. You can't really use bait because it just to warm just me

nasty yeah, and so you use all luer and your cages are barely covered up. So there was a period of time. I thought you know. Maybe that's a difference you'll, maybe it's not the cat. Maybe it's! Maybe it's the country. You know yeah anna, but I I I really can't say how I I don't know why it's so more difficult to catch these bobcats in cages in the mountain country. I I just don't know I just don't know you were telling me something yesterday about their power smell that I was thinking about restart your mentioned it when you do when you workin on research projects, how quickly bobcat will come in and occupy the vacated area left by the death of another bobcat and like how do they know what it was. And how do they know that the person the cat is gone.

How do they know what it was like your tom ass far ass, we could look at tracking data young, And you'll know that a cat will go in and just take over the territory of another cat Melia. It's amazing how fast sometimes- and I think, the the the cat that died, the better his country is the faster the neighboring cats will take it over right like as soon as a few weeks. My is pretty impressive, If you picture like a picture like it, what checkerboard you know the squares and pictures he squares of black one on the left, a red when the middle and a black one on the right. We had a situation three cats, it had radio cars on him and they in all three had their own as a as a female or write a mail in the middle and a male on the left and the the one in the middle was a big dominant tom. So you'd suspect that he was occupying the best little piece of country, their right and they they all three had fairly small home ranges.

my estimate from you and I don't. I don't have access to that. You be as data I just I just can't get the get whatever I can from the ball just some work before down there near zone, but just looking at the screen, shots and stuff, let let's say each one: was bob cats had roughly three mile by three miles square peace, a country that they occupied fairly small homepage, compared to what I would expect appear in Montana. Let's say: meaning they had everything. They needed right there right three, such food, three hundred miles, yeah food, food, shelter, escape you everything they want it right: resources the one in the middle died and the other two I showed you that it's auto designed and it was wearing a collar yeah. I was wearing a collar yeah. You don't wanna, tell me how it died. Ah, it

caught in a foothold trap and a lion came and ate it. Oh yeah yeah lion ate it before noon. That morning, yeah just hold the whole belly out you can. You can tell the difference between lion kills coyote kills and stuff. It's pretty easy! So trapper got it, but a lion got it. Yeah yeah. He got killed in a trap. Well, just within a few weeks that the two cats on the other two checkerboard squares just immediately started venturing into his country and then within just a few months. They absorbed it and just took it over and now they have each one of those. Two cats has a bigger home range and they spend time in his country than they do in their owns from what I've seen so far and at you I see here it s awful, like an animal, haven't its territory, but it's amazing. We another care. I now that the barge send me some screenshots on. He was a young male that we collared last december and he lived in

Spot had a nice little home raise, the guy is making a good life for himself, and and one day in june he just took off and he took off and went. Ah I would have to estimate some forty miles or so north. Just almost on a straight line. Spend a day or two of their turn around and came all the way back down along the same lines and then turned west, and when, across a budget juniper country come down into a valley when have been behind a town and took off headed west again and hang out of their hang out over there for a month or two. and now the latest delays little screen shot that the biology share with me. He is now occupying a piece, a country that we had a male that was collared d, got shot that we knew his home range pretty well, and it looks to me like he setting up the take over that time.

Whose entire peace, a country. Now that he's gone, so he went on a big wander in found like a sweet spot that you know had been vacated and there, I know for sure, is vacated yeah. It's it's pretty cool stuff pretty need stuff. How did that transition go for you, where you're doing you doing bobcats as if as a fur harvester, so You really learn how to catch. Him was the first time a researcher call d up. I think it was probably just a slow thing. You know I started selling the products to all sorts of researchers all over the place, and I guess the first project I worked on was when I was with us d. Yeah. I did some seasonal work for a few years, do in cairo work and. They sent me down to help a grad student catch, some gray, squirrels and put collars on em. And then the night. I I went out on a couple private researchers projects just to help him out. You know o California,

california one point: there was a local biologists on the eastern part of state that was trying to use actually trying to get ahead of what saw coming down the road like this would have been in about two thousand nine or ten ish before we lost everything he was trying to get ahead of it. He was trying to be proactive and actually do a population study in the eastern part of the state and um. He was he ain't, gettin collars put out stuff like that I think he probably got pr money for it and and was doing a study and he's since moved on. But I I got to go up there and, like I kind of like, did a school for their trap. And then they were struggling a course, and I went out and helped him a little bit more. Just slowly and then You know I mean I had a pretty good reputation in arizona whereby new who I was pretty much the only one cell and all the stuff, and so when the biologists, I think, like two thousand,

teen, some of the animal welfare groups started talking about pushing for a ban on line and bobcat hieing entrapping in arizona and Like I was a director, one of the higher ups game in fish said to the the firmware biologists large we're lady that I worked for, say we can do about this european. Have data to fight these people off and she's a while. I was never enough data, She said I got this idea for this population study and laid on me. You know, and and here ah what two and a half years later, it's I think it's the number one game fish doing right now in on the radio cholera bob that's an lines, oliver state, but when she Are you getting? You know it's all pr money right and. She started put out altogether She knew right away. She she's there's only two guys it I want to work with his is the trappers. That's that's! Why? Really? the most with her, because so many other

she's, a they try to do with volunteer help volunteer travers, the trade in house. You know because he's biologists they spent so many years, college rightly one word with wildlife, and they find it there in office all die right if they have a hard time giving up their fieldwork. So then he tried to do. Ah, you know the trappings of themselves, but that's what I have so much respect for the way arizonans doing it because they hired to you know to competent trappers to go out and do the catching. You know and let them do the science stuff so so she saw when a when they put that all together a couple of years ago. She call me so well, hey, you know what are you doing this winter and so that's? I think we just had our third capture season right now. How many have you gotten Carson, so I was lucky enough to be there to catch number, one hundred for the state of arizona seriously yeah yeah yeah, and I am so. Why deployments theirs,

in banks or in the neighbourhood of thirty mortality is yours. What's what do you find is killing? And besides people, you know the biggest one so I think the biggest category and an eye so understanding talking, prayers, arizona, fish and honestly, I'm repeating some things that I see in So what I know you know so predation, I think, is probably the biggest one. So far for mortality and that the lines are really kill neck out and things. I don't know, there's men, maybe I'll about a desert. So don't call me on it. There's, there's been around a desert, so predation mortalities and and a lot of those are lions. I had two lines up on this one. This one ranch I collared in and three months later, they're both dead from what I would expect the same line

yet you lions excuse me, did I turned out yet you bobcats here are the lines kill them d, etre, Mirza competition thing yeah? I didn't All the above biting, I is lying just wander around the country want stuff their debts. You found out here. We saw a little better than the other day, a friend of ours. another sound engineer that works here had found him lying track means check in his martin traps. So he called mina and another friend of ours with hounds we went not there run the cat and as work, work, work and sort out through the tracks. First, we found some kills a couple carcasses of

I and which had on top of it, laying their fresh meat, Niven rigour mortis. Yet I was abad cat with no head his era, the that bobcat eaten his kill tat, and so we threw out the tribe thinking, like all sweet bonus, Bob carry an couple hundred yards down the trail with we like see where this lions been dragon sultan see the blood. Rail and cash underneath the trees, a whole kyle she's, a happy cereals. Yes, I see that's something I didn't even know like three years ago a buddy of mine told me: hey my brother just shot a lion. He said he was driving down the road and seen a lion looking at him over the bushes. He got out and shot it and went over. There was eaten a coyote, and I said to what I say my buddy of what you mean has she eaten a coyote, and I had to call a couple that houseman buddies of mine like lion expert guys, like lazy coyotes,

so yeah they choose the hell out of things eat them. We have a track and saw where it got red fox one time and a friend of mine said he saw or got to floyd follower or where they've killed tortoises. These cigarettes kill and everything they come said they got. They got used to what he sees and he sees it on occasion they pull the articles four times as they pull the bottom. They pull the bottom shell right. Often it's similar to how they kill a porcupine. If you've ever run across a porcupine was killed by It reminds me it may gives me an image of my mind of a like a cartoon about of like that line,

with one single claw. You know like a scalpel and zipping the belly, but that's what it looks like they like like from the belly side. They cut it open. I assume with her claw and then spread apart in just hollowed out. You know their tongues have those little hooks on their tongue, so they can just lick, meet route bone and everything. But that's three things happen or I've seen three different things. When we investigate the little bit, I've gotten to do, investigate the mortality locations I have a bobcat, will either just bite it or excuse me lionel either just bite the bobcats head and just leave it there dead or they'll crunch his head and and eat his guts out. But it's it's all very clinical. You know when a child kills bobcat wheat. I got to go on one of those. We had a mortality one morning. We were to happen this year in Hell hike across little value value with it with the gps location. When it, when it mortality, found the body,

got there and it was with what I read in the ground was that this bobcat had gotten caught a little bit in the open, had gotten chased towards a tree. Why didn't go up the juniper tree? I do not know, but I was picturing it just kind of backing up against the tree like if you'd chased it with houses. You just kind of you know shoved up there and and but he like decided. That's where he's gonna make a stand, is what I suspected and there's a pile for right there, where the coyotes got him and then there's you know a thirty yard trail where the coyotes are pulling on him and pull rip it for off and just left his carcass lay there. But when a bobcat, when a lion eats the bobcat most of the time, there's just this skin, laying there with bone, fragments from the head and and like like clinically like reminds me of that Hannibal lecter movie or my. How did that lion eat everything, but the skin it, for you know like how you so good at eating stuff

and there's this there's a collar laying there and it's all it's all in a little three or four foot circle, and sometimes it's writer neath of a tree, and if you examine the tree close enough, you can see the lion got up in there and rip the bobcat out, because you know that bobcat that got killed here a couple of weeks ago. He was at the base of a tree. You know why didn't just go up the tree and just hang out there until the coyotes are gone. You know I dunno same same same question. I have with the the bobcat. I went picked up off. The railroad tracks got cut clean to run over by train one of the colored ones that were the collar on how like how do you not get alloway that train, you know, is a bobcat. It trains, not swerving, noble steps. I know right I do the railroad people work and found in land their dead on the tracks, and I went out to pick it up and it was just cut square into. I'm surprised to hear that above cat can't, I guess at least this motto mano, take on a cairo and might have been more than one

yeah? I was warm guy with our saves. Definitely, prime more than one who would win and of one on one tussle. a big tom error or o koyo johnny's big. All twenty five pounds in cairo got well if If the bobcat had one foot in a trap, you'd have a you'd, have a dead, bobcat, yeah yeah, I'm sure they aren't. You have to imagine they run into single single shares from time to time, and probably that's That's the one thing you know the the big toms. If you look at the little bit of tracking data that I get to look at, you know the toms, the toms deaf he's been way more time in open country. Yeldo move there. There still, structure relate animal, always want to be by structure. They move from one piece of structure across some opening.

Whereas the females in the younger cats are just just almost always stay in structure, they always will be safe. You know, and that's how so later in the season. You know those big tom show up like use your trap and foothills and stuff like that, a lot of times when you start catching them big arms in January february, and because they were, they were down, run it with a guy. It's an innate, though come up into the trees, define find a woman. You know, but you were talking about like how fast they discover that their neighbors gone. That's that's like My most recent thing, that's keep me engaged him in arrested and tried. Learn about bobcats. More moors is how they feel that out how they establish those territories like what different ways it they're leaving sent down that create such you know like defined barriers between one cat in another you and some of those odors that are present in.

You know that come from their glands, you know they're, just a big giant gland. They got on forehead behind her ears in their arms. In their you know, their anal glands their feet pads. You know they just they. They can make smell like bobcat smell out of all their whole body, but you know when they're making them scratches the scratch, your back for you to their front feet there is therefore an odour down when they're peeing or put noted down when their scratching a poster put noted down some of those odors I'm starting to learn last of pretty short amount of time. You know undetectable to us as humans, but you know bob cats Bob gets if your old old old tree as you know like you know, there is a wrap on bobcats. They got a cold nose, they call him the cold nose. You know they don't compare to a coyote, you know, but the

longer. I do this, the more I respect and admire the the ability of a bobcat to smell, especially wash them on trail camera. When they become your cage trap, they they literally put their nose on every single thing, yeah and they can smell so much better than I you know ever never really thought. If you haven't got interest and bobcats, where you think you don't you life galiano, you need you to get all obsessed with some different. That's it! I mean I mean I imagine why by nature I would have, but like you were destined to get obsessed with something, that's always wonder about prepare. You may like if, if you spend your whole energy are one thing, and that was an absence. Would you benda some, like slack jawed tv, watcher, return and all obsessive some, the next like plan b, Yeah, you know I always wait. I know as a construction work

for all those years. You know it's it's one of those. If, if you don't pick your future, your future picks you anything. You know and you know, I saw remain good money in high school in and being in construction. Well then, itself to the talents already had you know, and I wasn't you know I always always wished that I was good at school- always wanted to go to college to like that, but just never just I just I just, stay hacking do it. So I am outsmarted. You get college, oh gosh, I didn't. I just took a community college courses, the only ones I read any good in were the ones that I I stuff I cared about. Ideologies or electrical glasses and stuff, but yeah. I was remember me on my stepdad was a was a cop, you chief police stuff, and he he would always come home in in a suit and and nice shoes and stuff and you'd put his work boots on when he got home. He had to get off his boy

and you put his work, leads on to do work and always thought all those years doing, construction eyes, let light and the exact opposite I wouldn't mind going to work in nice clothes you now and in the work closer for when you get home I don't know what I would have done if I wasn't in the sun, Now you are married nineteen years well, I'm in there was one brief cover your Originals younger. I'm ever leaving that girl. You love, get driver who now I remember, leaving that Galina the apartment couch on christmas eve. To go out bargaining, enable my body our animals wrong woman? Unless you do understand we're only married couple years and no kids, and that might have something to do with it. Yeah yeah I dunno yeah. She didn't, she hadn't noticed she wasn't against it, but

You know I just she thought yeah that was haircut the way it ended up working out for me getting older, get married all her life having kids all in life. It was to me so much. then my younger friends, you got married, earlene had kids cause, they were still. There are costly fighting you know every day, wine to have their own personal life, no fun life being tied down these kids. Indian, and when I got married older lie. Today is an early forties house just ready. ready for that to be the thing I was gonna, do have kids and be merry Yeah, I was pretty more sick of having fun by Tom. I had kids yeah yeah You have quite a bit of fun he's! No! No! I don't mean that kind of fun. I mean like haven't whatever. now. Shit like that yeah I was was never a partier. I mean not that code for the nighttime fun it was never a party of hickman J would ditch school and we'd go out in the desert shooting stuff.

We go around. We can. We go on the desert, nine on camp at all the desert there just goin out tuesday. That's. yeah, that's what we wanted to do, even though you can't on it and trap it is that mojave desert stuff, still cool to hang out in, is pretty wild now, so much of it has been close to wilderness, your clothes off the roads, anywhere that the topography out there in the desert change from flat to two hills they years ago they turn in the wilderness tag drew a line around. It goes off the roads I get a much dominant. I've never been a big hiker. Then a big portion of it through Million acres got turn into the mojave national preserve, and and their goal was to turn it to it's pre colonial days. Right, though, so, if it wasn't here when you know colonization, they they didn't want it. So they you know, started working private groups to buy out all the cattle ranchers chased them out there, and then all those

The only reason that desert was worth anything was because cattlemen and minors and stuff you know, assuming that's how that desert I helped you know, there's no water, so them guys rather develop and springs natural springs. You know and stretching waters out across the desert in providing water for wildlife? You know, and so over a period of quite a few years. They have. pretty much got rid of all the common there's. Only one left out there. Most solemn cattle waters died. If you do

into one of those, your cattle waters, your springs that the the cattle rancher used to maintain. It's just overgrown. Now, there's no water above surface, and it's just it says, death valley and it used to be teeming with wildlife. Hmm, you know, but they did all that you know in the interests of they say retaining it for future generations, type surfer, so yeah they actually did that ma be preserved with supportive hunters like they, they were told it was going to be a pretty pretty neat deal to turn into preserve, you'd, get federal money and all this sort of stuff and and then over the period of time, different directors with the with the lebih the park service. You know they they even attempt to do stuff like ban nighttime, coyote hunting out there

for the sake of the dark skies like people that want to go out and look at stars like they don't want varma hunters out there at night run a spotlight. You know it's just a constant. It's California man said you leave California every year than to chase bobcat somewhere else. Arizona, my playground these days and I'm only two hours from there, but I I just almost I almost you know satisfied at each between. So, for the last several years I you know, I was working for: u s d, a doing neil chapman, doing coyote, worksheet protection and then a we had contracts with your game, fish stuff like that we go into units and do fawn protection. You know when the springhill you know remove coyotes, to try to help the fawns, but you know I left that and then I I I found out about these different contracts with different states and stuff like that and as I you know, what's that all about, why is the? U s yeager, to do

so then I started work my way into some of this stuff. In so between, you know, bill negate traps in the springtime I'll do I'll do quiet, work for about two and a half it's somewhere in other. You know different different contracts and then wintertime and got to do this radio collar stuff, the last three years and sylvia, I'm hoping to get back home, get caught up on cage traps and everything and get at least get to trap. You know recreationally in february, you know for myself a cat like your business. The way it's evolved over time can reminds me of a little bit like being a writer where I.

The the the mediums change all the time right like I was I I was in to talk about a certain set of ideas and at a time it was like aws and magazine articles than it was in books. Then it's in podcast, then it's an audio original shit. It's on tv right, it's in youtube, whatever it is, feels like you'd been doing the same thing but like Nothing's changed around for sure, like four dollars, a get yeah that you just been like wherever bobcats take me no absolute than occurs for four what. If few years I just was into selling their pelts. You know that's what I was about and then the cage trapping thing started. So now I've got like you know, a little side gig going on with the cage traps plus I'm trapping. And then, and when, as we lost everything in California, those almost At the same time where I started you and seasonal work for usda and then workin for euro zone game fish stuff, he adds is like

like yeah every few, a or figure out a to make money off bobcats in and the research stuff is proving to be really fulfilling very, very fun. so people right in and ask how to get a job like an outdoor job. Yet her job and the doors cocktail Pick autonoe every way in no way, no two people have the same story Ah, I was soon when you ve carve this whole crazy existence like that man. And you will be like. Oh here's how you do it doesn't make any sense?

I was not run out radical and I would love to tell you how to plan and and and figured it all out ahead of time, but it's like every year brings something new. That's just not revocable know the the. U s d, a wildlife services route is is not too bad a lot of guys get their kids started doing that they you know he can spend an entire career working for U S, d, while our services, you know, as a wildlife specialists, will we've had some of those guys on the show, yeah. They they get kind of a bed. Everybody likes to make fun of the government trapper. You know, I didn't know that yeah yeah. They all liked to tease it that you know he's ninety good then yeah, but then at the same time, Travis Jonah, oh yeah, in all the government trevor. My town taught me how to trap so like the old government trappers, they get credit for being great and and You know usda guys. Nowadays they on online, like

yeah we had to. We had the government guy out, he can kill the guy. You know so you know like me, and a bunch of boys from the bar went, kill it yeah Well, maybe I appreciate you come out hanging out schumann, the invaders. No doubt comment well how to find your pet tell people how to find your your business, oh yeah, camp trip cages on facebook is where I'm most active, believe it or not, facebook, but your website says you gotta make a website website that certificates and everything ran out like a year ago, and so he's gonna put like a placeholder, so you know honour, caging, bobcats, dot com and it's been a year now I've been promising that website guy that I'd I'd work on it for him and I have a ton again, we'll send him a bunch of pictures, though, but that I'm so darn busy right now, just word of mouth that the owner and it's it's kind of cool, because when people look you up word of mouth like they're they're, looking for you. Could they want your product like you get that

call, you make it so when I almost dread pudding, social media puts out cause. Yet you make one so tire case. One social media, those who get all kind of guys want free, advise and asking two million questions in. Don't don't even read your post, they ask questions about the posts you just made, light of which, as you know today, alright man appreciate it shoot. I appreciate so finally there and if you're not, you're out in the desert somewhere learn about bobcats yeah fisher proceed corner Give me no, yes,

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