The show was severely beaten, in my case, unaware of the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by an axe, hunt, creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters, download the hunt app from the itunes or google play store, nor stand with annex gay we're joined here today by special guest carter, smith, executive director of texans park, texas parks and wildlife department, yeah great, to be with y'all, I'm going to I'm going to like As asking these questions to start, discussions have, as is not easy.

you are aware of how how people food don't live in taxes are often baffled by taxes the amount than that the number of animals- and just bewildering yeah the scale. The diversity add a bit of a mythology around all that in there yeah yeah and you can be driving down the road and there's a zebra standing there. It's just rehear it. So that's why it's going to be down here, because we hear from so many people. People right in and we're from so many people who have they speak about like people from the northern tier states who speak about taxes as though they're asking about another country, yeah yeah, and so it's good to come down and talk to

this all opponents to go by the official voice, Texas. Why not? Quite the for national, so yeah, yeah lombard. I ask you to have got that immediately you go from here right. I am yep. Yep grew up here. It got up one foot in the shitty one foot in the country, Zahra call, boston home our family raised and farmed central, it's out taxes and in so it was kind of the best about world. Generally guess ran a cattle ranch, we did cat caf operation in and my really uncle took full responsibility, for that will we played a part is, is is well, it was kind of interest And growing up to say my cousins really gravitate more to the pack side. You know I was alone a lot more interested in a trap and auction. You know cannibal blogs and other aid. I gotta thanks we're going to farmers. You guys do so shall like to support. You guys can operate now know that was a shepherd operation, and so there was that you suggest a dry land broke up, operation, sorghum and corn.

and at out to a neighbour that had been there forever. and show, and then we had all cattle operation off on that after the saddle, net places will and it so you know- and that's really where I discovered the outdoors growing up all my my friends love to put in fish and be outside that was pretty pretty natural. You know, thankfully, I had this blessed childhood, where I had places to go and could also take take friends, but it was a pretty easy assimilation into the outdoor. Not so much forgets it. I did you guys. Are you guys? Probably Yes, involving oil and gas. To urgently guys aren't there are other impression tat, yeah yeah yeah. Well, you know. Obviously you know you look right now what's going on in the armenian and it is dramatically changed. The house, energy landscape, just a huge, but all natural production. Here, the proliferation of oil and gas out, and out and west taxes in all those notions of energy independence, and you know the fact that you have now the u s ears

ex border of oil and gas. You know the the amount of production is coming out: west taxes, it just astronomical, but rather the ranch Father grew up on and that where I spent a good part of my childhood, you know there was legacy production that you know went back to the forties and fifties and sound. That was you know during during our lifetime, and you know, there's always the trick was to balance that with the other things going on at the ranch- and make sure that there was a co existence. But I really don't want to give the listeners an impression that all of taxes is covered with upon jacks. It's not their hotchpotch where all and gas is produced, its it's it's a critical resource for the stage and lots of revenue, as you might imagine, lots of lots of jobs, but it's not as if that's activity that blankets, the entire state, its localised, obviously where the oil and gas is and where its viable to get out

I get out of the earth. Did you when you were young? Did you know you're going to go into wildlife work? I didn't, and you know it's I really. I didn't have a good sense that you pursue. That is a vocation in order later on yeah, he was forty when we were kids like so many the kids like to hunt and fish. The only thing you could think of is everyone would say that going to be a game there, yeah right exactly. I was like I dunno. It seems like I'll, be doing the job, but nobody is aware of yeah well anytime, before. I had that two grown up. There was a gay morning. It what county in one way and should carry that were vienna with a thousand norman ranch all up all the time, their wonderful mentor, wonderful role models, but industry Really I'd say it was college and I was sort of man during our way through trying to figure out what I but I do know one out for well known to law school and I sit down one. Do you know where the porch and wildlife game warden and apportion wildlife, while at biologist- and that was really the epiphany that you know.

it pursue. That is, is a vocation and I wouldn't talk to a couple of my biology professors at the university of taxes and- and I said, if you really interested in pursuing while I biology or while I've management you need to transfer to another school that has more of an plied resource management program and so one of them said: go west young man, the soul, ross and I said well where's ad and they said that's an alpine in far west texas, and so I dutifully looked it up. Small school has this: a rich history in geology and wildlife and transferred to so rossen and then left school for a louder, actually come more proportion. While I found one of their while at management, areas in a cup of professors from texas tech were who were doing research on the while at management area convince me that in a lucky related go back school finish up your degree and while at me, I don't want you come to lubbock. Let me show you round campus. You don't have that much to go, there's always a rule. Now, isn't it really is it? You know it

like administrative level staff and where how about you know it's there? certainly a lot of folks did have taken that trajectory Would the graduate program at the graduate program, and certainly, if you're, going to get employed as a biologist with a state, fish and wildlife agency. You need a master's degree for sure, I'm a cis, so hyper competitive. edit candidly here, if you wanna, be a game or you gotta have a college degree. Now that there's no requirement that its and criminal justice or fish wildlife, management or psychology, or maybe any of the other fields you might think of or affiliate with with law enforcement. But you've got to have a college degree, and that's a very you know important, I think, distinguishing factor for our force but yeah, they advanced agree if you want to go into the biological science is in and get in the fisheries, and while I manage manager so so competitive these days, just about imperative What drives that near mind? Is the competition yeah they're not not like a not like a it's? It's not a prerequisite for application,

well that there is a prerequisite of meda, typically will cyprus, art, you know and so and know. We've got plenty of biologists that that have undergraduate degrees and excel inside the agency, and then we have plenty of postdocs, so it it runs the gamut on the continuum, but on average I'd say these days competing for a state, fish and wildlife agency job that that that at least a master job is going to help and give you a little extra chance and in in what is a, we're a very competitive field and you went off to yale I did I did. I must have been a real shocker. I have so much access gap right, exactly yeah. If somebody said I took a wrong turn in waco but I know pretty: where were you well traveled, or were you pretty just spent your life around taxes? No, no I mean I had I wouldn't say I was well travelled, but I've been outside of the state and outside the country, and I was excited about a challenge and you can

delay when I was gonna make it my manders through college, which is a very circuitous course before leaving tack. I had applied yale and got Nan and then decided that I did want to do. That finished up. My degree came to work for partial wildlife and was here for I guess almost two years and realized unaided go get that advanced gray and apportion while I was looking at creating a position where I could go to pursue my masters and continue work full time with a department which was a huge opportunity but I went ahead, decide to pursue admission

begin at yale, and I went in to talk to bob cook, who was the wildlife division director at the time? And, interestingly enough was my predecessor as executive director and I and Bob said quarter. I we've got a terrific opportunity for you at college station and I think it would work out very well, but I'm going to take my parks and wildlife hat off and if he were marshawn I'd tell you to go east. You need to go to that. You need to have a different experience in your life, go, go experience a different culture or group of people, different type of education and- and I think it'll put you in good stead much so I didn't ah and I was terrified- absolutely marketing year but loved it. You know wonderful university lots of people from all over the globe- very stimulating, intellectually and there I had a chance to meet a professor that really became a professional mentor. For me, I gotta steve coloured in doctor.

Allard and e o Wilson wrote that biofilm iraq or the oils and I got to meet them, and that would be a stretch, but I did was how he popularized the term biophilia talk about him, my brothers in college. Oh, he has read a lot of your whales, yeah waste, terrific, of a hero of his yeah. Well, you know, and he is, was that he passed away. No, no, he is he's still he's still alive and I think he's retired from Harvard I mean he's, probably still a professor emeritus or something I'll, never forget we've written so much on so many subject, just what an intellectual giant and and I and there was shopping, that he wrote one to add it always

stop with the little guy a little gadget rule the world. You know and of course he was an invertebrate biologist and so loved ants and all the little fangs and when you think about you, know, soul, health and just the the criticality of of of of microbes and the huge amount of biological diversity in our soil and how that's just really the foundation for for everything. He was certainly spot on the people that I mean just lizards that are curious, Tom buzz. You can look at these comparisons of you know if you took everything if you imagined all animal life like an area and made a put in a pile I then took all animal life out of the soil and put it in a pile like the comparison of sizes. Then you get into stuff like if you took all the beetles yeah in the world and put them in a pile that the pilots, than all the humans enlarge mammals, very dramatically at its body, like you use it all around europe

in the world that were yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, another get comparison that is like the tallgrass parent. You know you look at those big expansive tall grasses and then you dig at the root system and in what's on top of this whole pails income, person to watch beneath is like an iceberg. Yeah! That's right! That's right! Yeah! The other issue thing about yale that I wish was the I mean I knew it before or go in there. But of course it we're out a leopold study. And so, when the university very proud of that? action and that that ethic- and you know, give her picture this time there, and it shall there been a lot of folks along history that witnessed well there and you know a lot of them. You know more and kind of policy related positions, but Steve Keller, just one of those brilliant thinkers real interested in

the the human wildlife interface and people's attitudes towards wildlife in nature, and I think for anybody that goes into a career and fisheries or while I've management or conservation law enforcement. You quickly find out that most of your work is spent. Dealing with people not critters, it's really for an imaginary. We had a leading mountain line. Biologist on recently in here, like in being circumspect, yeah is, I guess I most deal with people, yeah yeah, yeah, I'd rather deal with lions, but I of work. I spent a lot of time dealing with apple here. Yeah I'd rather deal with there, but I mostly deal with people that, were you familiar with the writings of aldo leopold before you went to school, saint county. You know that kind of stuff yeah. Well, I a little later I you know that that that came to me in college. I think

The same county almanac was a was actually a literature class. I had it at first call. I went to schwann at university itself and and and it just really resonated with me- I mean his prose was so elegant. I mean it was so compelling and he just wrote about the outdoors in ways that really spoke to me. And in ways that no one had dont know what to do in washington that writing is its timeless right. May we read it today and we thank god. It was written by a seventy years ago or so it is relevant. Today it was there anything in there. Re read it now, then anything in there that feels dated is now actually data, but almost feels prophetic light like this most. feels like everything feels relevant an unknown than you read something and it feels like man. He really was looking kind of.

In order to earn nothing somewhat prophetic autumnal things are one of being proven to be pretty time: yeah yeah yeah, I think all stewardship ethic you know what a course at a profit. Last I like taxes, that's very germane to what we. What we do, and I think I'll go leopold rub very, very twice lively and movingly about the credit quality that ethic and making sure we do everything we can to help foster engender that in our in our private land managers and our prime, landowners, and so we say private land state. What were you ever in the nineties? Now we're not off not five percent and ended up proudly shot. I mean that's part of the counter, the rich tradition of of tax and so were very proudly

private lands state and also have you know, certainly from a a conservation perspective here in texas. If you're going to get anything done any kind of a meaningful scale in texas, it needs to be in concert partnership with with private landowners and so a big driver for us. I imagine it means that you know it yet the realistic, but I'm sure, there's plenty people that would like to have some more public land opportunity or if they like this wildlife conservation is going to happen, it's going to happen on private land. This is where yeah yeah. You bet. I don't want to skip too much, but you wanted with the nature conservancy idea, yeah I work for the nice conservative in that we gotta get interesting transition. I, when I left you I was up in canada. Awhile up in the boreal forest way. Informers, edward rotation push work which is pretty interesting and and then I got talked in the coming back to taxes from some interesting enough importuned, while I

biologist friends that were really concerned about the development of the katy prairie west to Houston and we're going to water file? Mecca historic perry, wetland areas? Lots arise farming at the time, but Houston was you know on its in trouble march, westward and and there was a need for a kind of a nature conservancy like organization that could work with all parties to try to help protect some of that habitat before it all became impervious cover. so I got tells the word used: impervious so so? Just like this tabletop, you know, parking lot the asphalt nothing Gallagher like now non permeable, yeah, yeah yeah, it's so it so,

used in moving west eve got all this valuable rise form habitat wetlands, residual prairie tons of waterfowl. But you know the concern which it was gonna get paid over in leicester, with somebody actively working to go out and work with landowners to try to figure out a way to consort so interesting lay a group of waterfowl guides, rice farmers, couplet developers, real estate, attorneys and some houston. Ghana middle of the road conservation has said. We need to create up land trust lie, we're gonna, get out and allow the coalition. That was a coalition, yes pretty cool. So I created this katy per real, quick there. You know all that thought out, thought more. well. Look at night with moves happens to sketch out, we were looking at a variety of fangs and is causing concept about trophic cash gauge and whether or not systems were control top down. through her bravery or more bottom up through nutrient related considerations in at the.

Who is who's in the driver's yak and whose and the driver shade and so in, and you know how our forest management practices contributing to you know helping our harding emotion. Populations- and there was this there's this guy rio, universities, that was working up on up cree indian reservation, with funding from the national science foundation, and so they were looking at a wide variety of items and it was in virtuous. Sketch weren't, in virtue of british columbia university of washington harbour gale couple a couple: others it so there were. There were professors and grant students from all over, and

We lived on this cree indian reservation and and and and worked very closely with the first nations community and the saskatchewan provincial government on a variety of kind of research, related topics and my job was to help connect, keep all of that go and there were certain numbers from the the community that we had to hire for jobs associated with the research when researchers and their grad students would come up. I'd have to help them kind of get acclimated and help them get their research ex, get to get set up, and so it was a pretty eclectic. Mixer thanks we were we were. We were study in the most stuff. Obviously is what caught my attention the most, because I knew so little about most before I got up there, and it was just interesting to be around a big game, animal that was You know why colleague, in those in those in those forests and yellow, treasure that just but the culture shock was about like going to new haven connecticut.

In the other direction. In the other direction, yet so anyway, it up ended up making my way back to katy, at the behest of of folks, here, the help start this land trust which are new absolutely was when he's out with the land transfer katy prairie. What was the walls the developer produce? no! So the developer participation were were really a couple fall of sharing, was soon everybody over. You know development at large violations of the clean water act. I, with world war three over there on the on the on the katy bury its. They were trying to fire. Let's create some organization in the radical center that can apply to everybody. That is doing something applied, pragmatic, getting something done. It's not just a purely of litigation. Oriented strategy go and and you know- and I would say that the area which was pretty agricole

goal oriented shot, would like a fit for an organization like the nitric insolvency, and so that was the genesis for four for the land, trust being created. Mimi nature, good service, you agenda is jenny, associate with less disturb their us land, that's right exactly in, and then I think folks wanted. One group that was local locally, driven the borders. Local people knew they were representatives from these different sectors. You, know kind of aligned around a plan to help protect ports, that katy perry and to your question the real estate uppers saw it as a is equality, alive issue or guy. They said it also as an appreciation to real estate is there was gonna, be development out there. There is development out there, but Heaven open spaces

parks, wildlife areas. They saw that, or at least some of them saw that as a value add to what inevitably was going to be the you know, future growth of of Houston and so having some of that preserved. That is a is a proverbial win, win playing the long game, they're playing the long game and I'll tell you what's what's proved interesting about that too? If you look at hurricane harvey and when it parched over Houston in west Houston and dumped, you know fifty inches brain in that area. West of Houston, you know, becomes the receiving ground for all of that rain and the more. and slow down the more it can can penetrate into the soil, percolate alight down- there is opposed to just runnin off created by the less flooding it's gonna call. So so, as it turned out, you know what the katy perry conservancy was doing. When I started there. You knows all about waterfowl and waterfowl.

A habitat. Today, it's a whole lot more about a kind of an unconventional flood control strategy in preserving opens base to help with attenuating floods into used and, in addition to protect an open space and wildlife habitat and places it. People can can go to get out. People, so hot dogs yeah there are still do which is terrific, you know and we don't have the huge how to snow geese that we used to do here. I was there. Those rights fields and wetlands were just absolutely covered with snow gazers wanted Even there was an anomaly, though right whale an anomaly, because you know that rice attracted him, and let me like that that the era of that yeah yeah, just the the the the snow geese. There are a lot of bear a lot of

But you know lots of dogs of all strive, tina, we're here at the tipp of the funnel on the central fly away. So we get lots of waterfowl that they come through here and we spend a lot of time at the agency work into conserve, waterfowl, habitat and and make sure we're doing our part alone, the alone the fly way and it so. at katy perry provided a pretty unique point, a little farther anyone from the coast, but yeah those big flocks of snow geese have gonna gone away, There should be a lot of the moved over to park and shawl. We still have a lot to rush country or their age. We just don't have the numbers, did you did you keep? as a hundred angler through all this year, No, I never lausanne, and you know that certain Was my immersion in the out of doors? Is loved a piano hun fish going up? If I could, you know, died divining, I you know. I found that data

happiest in a while a way to go. I think, from our perspective, I just I just love that and but I've always tried to make time for it now. You know to be fair. You get a lot of folks that I love to hunt fish, and so I want to go. Get a beer have a career as a wildlife, biologist or a gameboard, and it's not like he got a lot of copious free time to do all and yet death. So people get kind of disabused of that notion. It's a professional job, you're gonna have to make time just like anybody else to do the things you love then he came here now then or for the large majority, and in so I was recruited, go work for the nitric, insolvency and texas and northern mexico as a project in the Laguna Madre, the tamale person, Laguna madre in texas, and looking out of a binational conservation strategy with and I wanted somebody that could relate well to landowners and would be comfortable at the time working at northern mexico's different time,

by national made, so binational workin into countries, and so you know what's interesting about the Laguna Ahmad system system that one of the five, largest hyper sailing. Super salty the goons in the world. You have it in south taxis, basically from corpus brownsville. You ve got the rio grande, and then you have the mexicans mama dry, south of that they're both of em again super salty loaded with in red fish and try out in red, headed ducks and paragraph falcons camps, really sea turtles and shore Berge and waiting barge reddish egret a minute. Just it's. The amount of wildlife is is is studying the in good shape on both sides of the border

you know there are there are there are differences, one of the things that I think is help the texas side. Quite a bit is the big expanse of ranch country, undeveloped branch country that borders the lagoon, Ahmad russia talking about the king rage, the kennedy ranch, some of our states most fabled and largest rages, and the fact that you're fairly in like fairly intact ecosystems in great shape, and I very actively manage those ranches for wildlife and conservation and and ranch land, health and so forth, and so the lack of development along the Laguna Madre, both largely on the mainland side so the big rages, but then, of course, by draw national seashore longest, you know and develop

stretcher bearer island in the world and coupled with another big swaths of protected land that part of the? U s: fish, while wildlife service laguna discuss a national wildlife refuge on south padre pottery Alan means that you just don't have allowed a developmental pressures in the Laguna Madre. Until you get deep down into the into the Rio Grande valley near the mexico border, it so texas out pretty good shape and you get into mexico that that that sis am, I still biologically very unique. I fished awfully hard because even like this one, you guys in texas wonder is such a slowdown on commercial, redfish, netting and self doubt. Are those practices probably continue to imagine they do

They continue down there. You know they'll put these big nets across those little by using in inlets and just hammer the fish of all kinds- and you know candidly, our game board spent a fair amount of time dealing with a legal mexican commercial fishermen coming into taxes, and so they'll come in these upon gaze and they'll set these lives, and they will hamper our sharks? Wretch knows you do I wish to address flirted with a with uglier flirted with the area marine by marine border yeah an end they come. Over they set their lines, and I come back

I can get in and out and and it it it's a real game of cat and mouse. But it's that that pressure, his really intensified over the years, I think is some of those fisheries in mexico have had so much pressure on him that it's just been worth the risk to him to come over and try to sneak across the international boundary and fish in texas waters, and so are our law enforcement tastebuds a lot of work, making sure they're, protecting our resources in africa, hey Jani hit him with the question you were talking about, wanting to ask him what's out of order, but it's in order now it's in order now I know we had an order yeah we like to keep it secret, yeah yeah. There you go now. Man we're running through like a think about it, your child. Now I say the sacred now I got it. I gotta we appealed often backed down your national borders, but we are wondering how much you work in concert with like the mexican government now with as taxes parks, wildlife with creators that art

live in that zone. Yet my doctor about whether yet exactly they don't know migratory wow migratory wrathful, it's got your conversation right idiocy. I absolutely. In effect, we have up a liaison that works here.

whose sole job it is to you know kind of work with some of our international partners, and so a big part of her job has been with working with our counterparts in mexico. On you know, fisheries and wildlife issues in your ride. You know big horn, sheep or red headed ducks could care less whether or not you know they're in the waverley one more in a west texas or of the coast of texas, where the coast to coast of mexico, and so we still continue that work fairly actively, not as actively as it once was. Just you know to be fair that the conversations are good and you know we have others or international joint venture of the rio Grande joint venture works on a bird related priorities in both texas and mexico that were very actively involved in and will frequently hosts workshops for the mexican biologists to come to that.

I'm to texas, where we can help share information and disseminate information, but you know, regrettably, things have changed in order mexico and that has put a damper on. You know some of our travel and the ease of working across borders to share resources and work collaboratively on projects again, whether that's the can't really say turtles on the coast and protecting nesting beaches or working together on in a red headed duck related man, matter bighorn, sheep or whatever, but there still is still a dialogue and that's good ways. It things have changed. Are you referring to just like that? the wage and of drug related. and also thinks about things about border security, really really more. The former than the latter there, the escalation of the other cartels in the penetration into into northern mexico. You know they're just issues associated with psyche that we have to be very very mindful of because of the areas in which you know our foes

work. That does, as that reminds me of a point I like to raise with people now and then and where you grow up with this. This idyllic sensor named. Let me put it well like people. Imagine this sort of post apocalyptic situation were wildlife thrives in always find myself pointing out the people that you look. What chaos does not serve well, both well yeah yeah. sure like stable, well functioning governments serve wildlife. Well, you bet this idea that I I I'm ever going to place like goin in the southern filipinos younger, and I had my

snorkel and mask, and I was like: oh It'Ll- be a paradise. No one's ever seen these go there. I can't find a fitter here. There's no, no regulatory structure, no enforcement, no protection shares illegal fishing, illegal methods, yeah using explosives, using poisons no one to say no yeah, that's not right, not so. After a while you're like yeah, it's the places that work smoot yeah, they have very well wayland. I think there's three legs to that stool right I mean there's the biology shod, there's the enforcement shot and then there's the dedicated funding shot and you've got to have all. of those for those systems to function, and so to your point I think you're right where you ve got stable governments and you ve got

You know hunters anglers outdoor enthusiast wherever you are on the consumptive or non consumptive space, and there's dedicated funding streams to support that you have professional scientists and then you have a professional law enforcement force. That's that's charged with taking care that and protecting it. That's where you see the fish awhile. I If your patient right, you know very familiar where to get back on track in it, but I really was the how'd you just Jane maloney we ve never had a man. The show even achieve earlier on Oshea very, very charismatic, very eloquent, very, very passionate it's like oh he's, a he's like a wildly philosopher: yeah yeah, that's an that's a great way to put a wonderful ambassador for the north american mma. He has a deep, deep thinker, yeah now about wildlife in the history of governments and conservation and what works done. But you know, while I philosophers is a terrific I think moniker for four shine and in all the

if he does all around the world. He raised the point with me that that's that kind of reflects what you're just saying where you're talking about the system of, but like, like scientific management to biologists, you have a funding structure, You have private land owners who want to see wildlife. invited to. Why does he wildlife on their property in jail wildlife? striving all these functions and make our wildlife system work in complex, it is an interwoven. It is, and he said one of the reasons our system is resilient. Is you you can't caught the head off? The snake does not like a thing does not like some crystal thing that makes it work. Yes, yes, now things where any video is on where to go in for whatever nefarious reason, we're like Destroy it, it wouldn't be clear what to do yet here we have a well it's it's a varies

supported very willing granted. It is only likely to africa f k back on track. The reality is got an answer. Check give us, gives a breakdown Well, no land is warrior at now, waited for you now, so that you do that now, servants it at nitric insolvency for all your whole, damn state. We have what that much faith in that isa transition to say the least, probably typhoid and no one I didn't know in, but no I was happily doing. My work at the nature. Conservancy really enjoyed the conservation work and felt like it was impactful in texas, which was really my area of focus

Although you know, as I said, I'd worked in northern mexico for awhile is as well, but you know texas, being my home ground, that's that's where I was interested in in in in focusing and in then I got recruited to kind of gauge my interest in and coming back to parks and wildlife in this in this job. You came back to to serve the role you're, not here or idea he up and in what a privilege I mean really what a privilege I I cared play about my home brown, just as I expect most people care about theirs, and so you know the opportunity to work with a group of colleagues that are so passionate about you know, place and our natural heritage in our in our history and our wild things and wild places. I love that about this agency, and so do the people were a huge attract,

and to me just because I'm up, I've always held that apartment in very high esteem. Because of the professionals- and I know that work for the department, indifferent quarters itself was appealing to me in there. Just the opportunity to do things in a little larger scale to give back, not just in the stewardship related side which I'm particularly passionate about, but also the outdoor recreation shot up. I really believe firmly that, if we're going to grow the next generation of conservationists, that we've got to figure out ways to immerse them in the outdoors now it may not have been and probably won't be, the same light,

immersed in the outdoors or either of you are, and but wherever they are, wherever they're at, we need to figure out ways to introduce them and connect them, and I felt like parks and wildlife understood that from a from a state agency perspective and that there was an opportunity to help grow that and expand that, and that really that really appealed to me is a is a way to give back to the state. That's given me a whole lot. you probably can't even answer the people come along and a vet you as an interior secretary, as now gosh if their their bar is much higher than the rest of your next play. You know I love texas and you'd have to dynamite me out of here. I think it's a or shoot me out of here, which other probably a lot of folks, want to do that Gimme a overview on just like that: the scale of texts, parts and wildlife department.

Well, so you know we cover the whole state, you no two hundred and fifty four can ease hundred and fifty million acres or so a terrestrial wildlife habitat. Are boundaries, go out nine? Michael miles into the gulf of mexico, two hundred thousand miles of rivers and creeks streams. In roughly, with our meandering shoreline a little over four thousand miles of that so zero. It is hit his big and it is vast yeah. You draw a straight line. I think it's three hundred and sixty seven miles you you do all the You know bazin, estuaries and so forth in its it scaled up considerably alone alone. The cat is interesting statistic about prince of wales. the island, I gather principles, our out half size or third, the size, those twice the calls in this area Yeah yeah now saying all the fiori orders in exact location phenomena, but you know the sky

goal is, is is fascinating, you know ten or eleven different eager regions enough in the desert to the coast, to the subject. breaks down under the Rio Grande valley, the shutter terminus of the high planes, the southern terminus of the rocky mountains. You know that the edward plateau in the set part of the state apply should be a wilson of all people call the twenty six biodiversity hatch in all the world just because of the proliferation of interesting facial wildlife organisms in plants that their reside there. The big thing, at which, as you know more like the south over in the eastern part of our state, and so it is big And it is diverse, is an order fact of the size you knock out of the action of geography thing it situated a pretty interesting part of the globe abroad or ceremonial? You stuff that from a passing glance, you could think is tropical jungle the idea is amazingly go up and you have the like short grass program right,

buffalo gun boreal you're, the annexes panhandler right, you guys would would guys would talk about travelling for days. seeing a tree trick here and if you look at the bright light, yeah We got a rolling undulating hills, you know maybe you'd little bottom wish on cotton words and sprang fed craig in an end No a lot game here than people realize, but the other parts of the panel that you know I'd pluck us all down in and you'd say sure, I'm up appeared kansas and nebraska, but you're in the texas pain and or conversely, parts of far west texas, where get up in some of the mountains and he gets a ponderous upon in aspen in vienna. Thank your new mexico colorado. So that's that's fund to be able to work in a state that has that level of diversity of kind of plant and animal communities into play. A role and opened up to me the german consortium. What you guys best guess, how me dear say you know gases. Is, is a good way of putting it, but you know maybe

the five million range from really live till dear, but twenty eight million people, so we grow by about a thousand texans dies. You can imagine seriously seriously here. The suppression of our power growth rate is just been pretty high and pretty considerably by thought, roughly What's driving yeah its economy? Gathercole me, I mean people come here for business, quality quality alive. You know eighty five, eighty six percent of us live in nine major metal out in areas soaking of taxes, spot of all that asked rural later nature, emptying the middle empty in a mental or populous in the middle and in yonder on the oranges gently on the outskirts, ass, yet again, yeah so five minute, five million dear father, dear five main. Why tales with someone then came and said you like

to make a bet with you by how right the number was there like how how possibly wrong could? We're like that be well guys sit around try like because five million sounds like a pretty convenient round know for I in you know, take that again. Is this from ba? Is it from looking at densities in and multiplying yeah. So our biologists are actively involve. You know, with survey of all Observe animals, you around, you know dependent all what the species is uniformly. Why tell dear survey very a very extensively not only by biologists, with this department but by private landowners and others. But five may and is it estimate, and so that's a rounding number from me and so is accurate within a plus or minus ten percent, at fifteen percent, probably we allowed here and in many cases too many dear and so

the issue is not so much had a we bring back dear and our state. We ve already done that very, very successful. the challenge is: how do we get hunters to shoot enough How do we get landowners to accept allowing hunters to shoot enough dear without being concerned it? Yet Oh, my dear you download any really interesting as a friend of mine. This almost is who said this is good and sound cynical, but he was not. U talking's me talking there how's like he says, I'm baffled my here, someone say: whitetail conservation waits conservation And is shooting wait to hear her well but to be fair in other parts of the south in part the country and where why tell numbers, have declined and so you know why happen in vienna, probably myriad raisins and taxes- that's not So when you say to me, too many by what measure like too many

according to who yet too many according to what the habitat can reasonably sustained, not egg is not car ensures. Now it's. You know, I mean we hear from you know, farmers in certain locales about about dear densities, be into high and concern about crops. Production, that's really up very. a small part of what we deal with and occasionally will here. from an insure about in a deer vehicle accidents, but that's really an anomaly does happen. Oh sure remain occasionally, but it's you know it's it's really more the poor motorists? Do you know he had a deer and then well? That's states dear and saw the state needs to pay me for the damage done. A car in my lost tray up in. What's your view is in and that their everybody

it. So you know we don't have any liability associated with data mean always so that something people test out its occasionally. You know it's, it probably been. year set sets I've heard somebody mica vigorous case in that in that regard, but But you know we do have a lotta dear vehicle accidents. It shot that he got a lotta dear, fair. All, accidents in oh, you gotta be mindful driven in rural areas, this year and to access the piglet car. Yes in agriculture is damage, may not like it to bear In fact, there's right around Austin there's a a loop that was that was built a new tall way and when put it was put in. It seemed like there was a vehicle pharaoh hall collision every single day. You know this just happened for a year or two and finally couple the counties got together and said in a we ve got to start working on some fair hawks.

There's a public safety problem and there's all these other myriad problems associated with feral hog's. But you know a a a loop around austin and san antonio with a eighty five mile, an hour speed limit and somebody hitting a feral hog, that's a recipe for real problems, and so show you, dear hall, collisions or up or power, or is it one of the things it keep us lay awake at night? bout. The fire now look, let's talk about hogs, because I had a bunch of hard questions. Let's is doing now do what's a ball park on hawks can even together, we give more hogs dear. I don't think so

You know the numbers it that that I hear consistently, and you know you listen to the margin of error this or somewhere between two to four million ocs. So how accurate is that nobody knows so they're, hardly count. We, we they're they're hard to count. You know because they're largely nocturnal and and they're not really good methodologies that are established and that are being practiced on a regular enough basis to estimate numbers and again remember with species idea. Lotto orange did his trends over time write. The exact numbers are less important than the trends another specific indecision in in metrics, but lots of hogs everywhere if we affair hawks and every one of our counties now so calmly carries you guys got two hundred fifty four? No kid beyond! That's not also your heart distribution map is the state. It is the state, it is the state and I like crazy, westerners yeah we're you couldn't ike. There's there have alina contradict evelina country. Very little surface water not allowed

topsoil. It is astounding how adaptable and resilient those pharaoh hawks or will they displace heavily, and I thank them win, win, hogs will come and an area in really take over oftentimes. There will disrupt. You know those those very strict social structures at that have alina live in and will display him from from up from a habitat utilization perspective. So we certainly see that ask you if you could wave a magic wand. This is our favorite question. When it comes to pigs cause a lot of times. We have people who, even work in the harder indication, industry and lasting peace if a magic one have pigs, go away. They'll say nor one wave it, and not only- and not just because I do this for a living, but they just come to appreciate them. The refresh ninety anymore, to solicit. Here you are, I present you with

Now I ve is there's an industry in your state. It people come here. I've got friends who come from Montana the one hundred yeah they love it. Would you move where'd, you wave the wand and they will be absolutely gone from the state That's it. That's a great question you can have to put me in that came up its decidedly mixed professionally and partial. You know professionally be the right thing, it probably would haunt them your whole hour. My whole life, I grew up with them and I do have a deep appreciation for them and they are fun to chase in. And we got a lotta landowners that in enjoy there, but we certainly have an equal amount or more that archest run over with hawks huge problem. Sorry about It's like there's, no such thing as a balance between these two thing: no in their data. It's an interesting push poll, but you know professionally. We are pushing hard to to do everything. We can to encourage landowners and hunters and others to trap. Is many haug shoe

many hogs were working on a fascinating natural toxic and that is derived from sodium nitrite food preservative in our biologists have been working in concert with sound it is from Australia, new zealand and in here in texas, in u s da to test that toxic tenets of it toxic and it's up it's abate. It's a pellet and that's got a very specific delivery mechanism. To preclude other non targets, not level too dear, not lethal, that dear not lethal, two birds, not lethal, took cattle or as a really interesting and so still in the testing phase germany has that require all you got to view may not clearly. We don't want to have some unintended impact. On all the other sure bases awhile. I could thanks away that we care about them in a fashion attics, daddy bar biologists, at one of our while I've management area, and so they ve gone back to the drawing board. With

the size of the pellet. The amount of the toxic in the pelon what's happening about. This is sorry, I'm not tried hawks did eat it in a certain quantity. It stops the oxygen flow to the brain, so they'll eat it and then they go off and cannot go to sleep. So you know it's not like other kinds of pesticides that you hear about it. You know have some pretty dramatic effects soon and so were you know, advert into those canican sarge, but were particularly concerned about want to make sure we done everything to attenuate impacts on non target species she's right. We want to focus on hawks, so we're not ready for and to to have e p a approval yet and have that that would require that would require a PA approval, yeah yeah, so we're rigorous testing. We ve been working on this for aid nurse or now testing different.

how it formulations. I would get a lot of cooperation from other entities. Right there's been a lot of interest in that a lot of interest. You know you, though you know your point earlier. We ve got. You know landowners in part. The stated have operations, You know, hunters, come in from from from out of date in state to hunt for So you know they'd be real concern about event, but you can match geographically. Control deserve an anna landowners choice in really, at the end of the day, people have to get comfortable with the fact that you're, not gonna, you're, not gonna, eradicate fair hawks. You can manage them. You can try to control them. but you're, probably not going to radical. That's, not really loudly magic wand scenario. You don't allow realistic. Yet how far might be, I mean, let's say you got, there was a The only have not tried yeah you got there like how far out might some like that be. If you know, I think, we're on the normal course process. I think we'd still be several years away and that you know say a minimum of three more field testing that would have to be done. You know we ve been doing this in a

in setting on a wildlife management area in which we ve been able to test it and pretty controlled environments. We ve gone out with wildlife, services and on some preliminary field tasks and that's cause just gonna go back and again, look at that fight for later in the ability. Look it up the level of the toxic it in there and so probably will go back out in the field sometime in the next year to test that again, but work were several years away from that is a saudi him or not yet night night dry like trot. Yes, my question is: is that start kind of the brining process, so that is safer humans, impatient afterwards. I could write to the smoker yeah, there's yeah gotcha, just right there yeah it's weird yeah, exactly yeah. No, I don't think it does at that for you, but, but obviously we are concerned about you you're right? Somebody shoe to fire all sure that ended up here,

that by or other animals eating that levelled at all be part of the testing it ratifies a ten year. You bet you bear so we're making sure They were looking at every facet of this, both from a non target perspective, but also the human health and safety be it'd. Wildly irresponsible to write. So you know just fish wildlife agency we have to. We have to do that, and this is a pretty unique area of research for us and so we ve got a real dedicated team of biologists and scientists again, working in fact important with: u S, usda and other research institutions on this, but there is a real hunger out there for some kind of a solution to the faro haug problem. You can't shoot your way out of it. You can't trap your way out of it so that's interestingly you'd say within taxes like more than fifty percent of your constituents would say: let's try to make less haug. Yes, yes, what are the main

one of the main wise they order that one of the main arguments against hogs gap destructive. you know a lack of real ghana meaningful predators, all on their populations just go up and up you know: they're tearing up field tearing up roads, tearing up tank dams, you know displacing native species and I'd say those are the the the the principal ones it just kind of they're, they're, destructive and unchecked nature in terms of how they grow. You know, with their gestation period, is what three months re weeks and three days so they're having litters all the time and their litters you know, may be you know, twelve, fifteen piglets, and so it's just too hard to get the brakes on em and dear dear, is gonna. Kick off yeah. The kick off one or two forms ear. That's right! That's right and the kick off what twenty four year it, so

there again only there are probably going ahead of you know two groups hall: every year, sometimes three they reach. a majority at a very young age, and you know it s couch or kill hogs, Atlanta kill hogs, but but not in a way that keeping those numbers in check and certainly hunters are doing at either explain what exactly? What does the regulatory structure around shooting ha? eggs from helicopter smear. How does this work as our work, so

while the confusion about the sure so, first off the the pilot has to have an aerial wildlife management permit and remember everything. The overarching governance for that is the federal airborne hunting act. So there's a there's, a federal regulation which governs what states can do now states can work within the parameters of that federal act, but there's a overarching, federal airborne hunting act that basically says you can't hunt from a helicopter or a fixed wing aircraft. Now, so how does not translate into people shootin hogs out of a helicopter in texas? We ariel neural eventual alaska down in an hour gautier in and they actually software yeah right. So in texas, the texts partial while

parma? We essentially serve as the agent for helping to permit activities under that airborne hunting act and so will issue an aerial management permit to a helicopter operator So that's up annual permit has to be renewed, their certain reporting, relighted requirements and that's required if you're gonna can't wildlife from the air if you gonna for top photograph. While I from the air, if you get a tramp while I from the air, if you're gonna, shoot haulage or couch from there, you gotta have that area, while at management permanent you also have to have what's called a landowner authorization agreement or what we call. The acronym n l o a landowner authorization agreement and that el away is approved, by the landowner on whose property your flying over inside shooting, hogs or barcodes out of the helicopter, so the landowner has to approve it, has to approve the activities,

whether that's a while I've census, or maybe it's a trapping of exotics or shooting, caught couch or hogs out of Hell after and then there are agents in sub agents of the landowner that are approved on that land, owner authorization agreement, and so those can be observers and they can be shooters on the helicopter. But it's a its geo referenced. The landowner had has, as you know, within these boundaries have approved this map. You have this letter authorization agreement ticket, those aerial management activities whatever they are, so that Canada, regulatory permitting structure that we have put in place here, there's been a real

I boom I'd say in the last three to five years of helicopter companies. Marketing to people to you know come be designated agents in in and shoot out of their helicopter to shoot hogs out of a helicopter, but it's critically important that I that that you've got that landowner. Authors, I should agree meant in Europe. Dental fide again is is as an agent or a sub agent, and that you're only flying in shooting over property, which you have permission, tanned, that your pilot property, lies and nature and that your apologise properly license and again. There's reporting requirements and other complied songs that I have to. They have to meet weave and- and it's been an important tool for landowners, really deal. Yeah, yeah an actual use added, particularly the earlier guy, can realise a guy can reach.

as real movement of a problem it can. But but I think you'd look at it sees land poorly. You know yourself. So let's say you know you want to target hawks in you. You go up in the air and you ve got some shooters, you gotta get pilot and you find number of shoulders and you hammer those hogs you're gonna knock em back for a while you may change a modest somebody else's property If you're going to realize some relief. Now, that's not permanent relief, because there are going to come back right. Nature abhors a vacuum, so you're going to have to manage him you're going to have to stay after him, but it could help give a temporary reprieve. So you know when we're recommending those activities again from a federal haug perspective. It's gonna shoot chewed, often you know you can hunt you around, there's no limits. Legislation passed, in our recent legislative session, that if

a landowner or a landowners designated agent. You don't need a hunting license to hunt pharaoh hawks occur, but if you're just out bidding farewell hogs or hunting pharaoh hawks in you're, not witnessing him in the act of providing livestock or crops you really I need a hunting license. So there's a little bit of a dichotomy there from an enforcement perspective. But again we we encourage the harvest of feral hogs, and so you know, we've tried to throw everything but the kitchen sink at it in texas, but but it still feels a little bit like sisyphus, pushing rock up the hill adapt. To what extent do you agree with the statement that enthusiasm around hog hunting actually drives increases hard numbers in texas,

Well, I think that's fair in part b. I think that's fair in part, because people are coming to texas dialogues and that's great. We want folks from out state to calm, give us a chance to showcase our stay. Just like you know, other states would like to do that or do that as well. Do it very very well, but you know we welcome and won't folks to come to texas, to on all deer dear turkey's recoil or does or waterfowl or or what does that DR increased numbers or helped up artificially prop up well, I guess in the sense that is opposed to a management philosophy in that area in which people are really working to actively control them, keep the nuts down. Yeah probably works against us. Is that the Simple reason why haug numbers are just off the charge high in texas, probably not the meaning power so reproduction no real signify. Predation. We don't shoot

fathom to be able to keep up with our biology of of of reproduction, and so those factors have much more of a bearing than the fact that you may have of landowners in certain areas that you know, sheep see wild hogs as a resource for them. They are people that pay good money to come, stay at their places and have a have an experience. Hunting hogs love it the great revenue stream forum, diversifying their operation, maybe makes it more likely that you know what a manager land keep the fame of the property in the family and so forth. But I wouldn't say that is a big tipping point for why we have so many hawks in texas. Imagine two once their established. It doesn't really matter but you're. You, I'm sure, you're familiar with this, that some states that are on the edge of the expansion of hogs will preemptively ban

hard hunting yeah to de incentivize individuals, who might think it be cool to bring one home. I don't blame up in loser yeah and I we worry That is so disingenuous parson coms and traps load, hawks in taxes and then illegally transport them across dateline, and thanks witness me fond released from all my property and yet no state aquila them. You two absolutely as happened in an absolutely as epp. It does happen and that problem there's probably had haug since the fifteen hundred we're out for lotta. You know Is that your eventually like this place at this point? It's one could almost started thinking there's always was a native and narrow about your hundreds of years naturalised riah, I mean that's child thank one hundred years, they've naturalised. You know you think about hawks being brought over by the spaniards. Some of those,

practices. You know I mean I turn emotion, the bottom lance and let him intently fracture get fat the winner and, orange and then looked up again around a mob, such as it was in an office, then you had those fair or hogs hogs that were ridge, domestic, get out reproduce start too wild producer subsequent generation produce another one. Next thing you know we ve got wild hawks and and and and those numbers have just grown in her. Geography has grown since I've had this job, which will be twelve years in january They get no badge of honor here, but I think when I see There were still may be fifteen candies or show that we didn't have feral hogs and wood thought well, there's no way: they're gonna get EL paso right. I mean I watch where they can do there and

and all of a sudden, while it seven counties that adult error, then it's three, then it's war and it briefly okay, we've documented hogs in every county and no one's come looking to kick you out of here. That op sure, like look for other reasons, but now that gap with blamed single lie for that. That problem got one more big question for yeah. I was reading a piece one time, talking about the some other ben like oversight and. shooting hogs hot air balloons, gale wasn't a week Where was somehow illegal in the state remedy? This is this true. as you know, there was therefore somewhat I'd. Let someone identified a problem that, like once they looked at the rule books they realize they couldn't hunt from a hot air balloon and you know whether that happen. I guess it's taxes, radio problem or some such as such a funny thing work like the. When

look at the detail, realize your hot air balloons are still limited. Let's go close all the time. On that guy's hand, yeah yeah yeah. No doubt no doubt tell me about Elk a little bit because I know from a number of rock about our vision, a reality, and I read I do a lot of great work. Yeah, I read their their magazine, they come out with bugle and I think it was there that I read a peace where taxes that we're ways were elk, had been extirpated on texas. Wouldn't you out eighteen hundred jobs are largely them on four potter plus years. There's an old back now: there's some sort of pro and cause there's pay in contrast to other elk, would be regarded as an of animal and taxes and arguing, to what degree where they really present, where yeah key

is down. If you remember, though, no no, no, I am acutely familiar with a with that and by the wide rocky mountain Elk foundation, just as terrific terrific work. I well remember being I don't know that it was super critical taxes. No, I mean, I know it, but it's, but it's been a topic of interest at our awhile, because it helps again in wildlife, politic, yeah yeah. So you know. Historically, the rail can taxes and in probably covered a fair amount of the state wherein the grasslands you no kind of down through the for part of the state- you know- maybe even along a part of that part of the coast and and then you're right sometime in the. U no mere delight team, light. Eighteen, hundreds I really contracted, and You know. There were some relic elk up in the polypi mountains on the new mexico border approach,

some free range and out that still wandered through the texas, panhandle and parts of other parts of of west taxes, but largely extirpated from the state, but we as agency. We consider elk debate native historically, they were here the agency has an agency, and I were they are. They are a native species, while I now here's where the right it's the road you translate that will show where else or in taxes and how they get there if they also spend there were they introduced in that area, a really eclectic mix of situation- understand that so like like, for example, absent largely from big parts of trains. Pike, as for west axis, are mountainous country, historically absent. Now, no note in recent times the algae and so in so let's say forty years ago, partial wildlife works too then go get Elk from rocky mountain stage to restock elk in arts of west taxes, and so we ve got

Elk in the mountains and I was gonna. What was I going Forty years ago, here, ok out the authority forty years ago, so that was certainly certainly going on You know lots of efforts, of course, is biologist, we're working to restock fish and game populations that had been push lower forever there is sometimes with the kind of a cavalier approach and in and in some issue look back on it. Some of it looks a little bit that why, like short, open a gate, clear drive off in an ax, really all away he's gonna loyalty. Why have we gave a long way in that in that regard particular with disease concerns? And you know consort about health related she's capture related my, but they all those issues are that that its locating animals has come a long long way since the the wild west day, in winter referred to, but so that apply did a lot of restocking available in the in the state in state in the Elk were treated. Is

game animal up until I thank the mid nineties and the legislature which petition by land out in west taxes to be classified as as no longer being a game man. That would mean what so, what that means it is no longer. It now became classified as an exotic. and so no seasons, no bag limits. The hunting license. But by equally as a landowner. You can manage the pawning or opportunity to hunt on your on your property, arrange without worried about, the Elk season is only a month long or I'm only gonna get three bowl tags. You know basically you had the ability to decide how you are going to manage elk, how you are going to hunt Elk, and so how is the state if someone proposal for dear you wouldn't like it? Now we don't. How is that? How what does argument on me. I understand just I understand on the

individual landowner basis. Most people would be included in this. Probably most we were gonna want a higher degree of autonomy on one's own property. But where says some kind in proposing to you like, I said you know what from now on. I want you to give me the ok to do it. I want with mallard there on my part, would went home you around much, though I want going to say no way waitresses but the here's. What I didn't finish on the history of Elk in Texas, also began to crop up, were private, individuals. Bringing in Elk from captive elk form and and essentially centrally there were all of these gonna half inch, turning rages in which you know Elk might be placed on in areas where probably historically their work.

How could they were intermittent it best, and so you had kind of all these captive elk herds it. So the state became a kind of a grand bag of of Elk from different locations, managed differently different settings, so we ve been in this situation now, where Elk, while consider, a native statutorily are still considered an exotic, and so you don't The same kind of regulations that you know traditional big game have you have like you, don't have management authority overweight, management authority. They continued to that. Do they continue to thrive, and It would be regarded as potentially historic. range. Yes, all the Elk, or do it pretty well in parts of west taxes, so, for example, in other Davis, mountains is a very popular area for people to go hon free rein, jail in a mountain setting that looks like new mexico. It so you know

places. You might have a legitimate chance at a four hundred inch ball, so pretty significant bull Elk. You know it up at what people would think of. You know today is kind of a traditional western cannot mountain mountain hot, but that economy that she mentioned about. You know some groups would like to see him reclassified as a game animal and have the state take over management of them. Others to make sure they stay in their current form or they got that kind of autonomy that you spoke to that tends to us blunt landowners right down the middle and west tax, some of em, both era in which we the weight, is we want to continue to have that had been its others? Have him say now we'd like to see it be a game. Animal. The the elk forms the the canada, the elk ranches. That's a whole separate deal separate apart from you,

free range, elk populations and in far west acted on you'd have to treat those differently just very, very different settings and in circumstances from a management plan effective and ensure that, in fact, the the state's animal health commission has really the regulatory jurisdiction over Elk is an exotic, not the knockouts and wildlife department. You just mentioned the difference between an Elk herd that might be roaming around freely and an Elk herd that might be contained in a fence and an one individuals, rotten property. Explain to me that the regulatory difference was let's leave elk aside. Let's talk about something else? How does the state view those two things differently, where free ranging dear that are below could be on county land that could be an individual's private farm, they're moving around the state or the other people on them, and then you have dear her

that are privately held and held in to a specific landlords, probably by offence. Does the state have to treat those two different dear populations differently hers, yours that it's it's all dear and all falls under the same regulatory structure all dear belong to the people of texas, the public trust doctrine. This notion of public ownership of wildlife prevails. There's a long history of that, and not just in our but all across the country. That's the foundation for the north american model and that's what we subscribe to and shortly legally and philosophically in a we believe, All dear, irrespective of whether they live behind low fancy or a high finance or in a captive game for or out. You know in a completely free range environment those you're still belong to the people of taxes, and so so it in a high fence

As for anymore, you bring in you might bring in, like introduced for genetic purposes, introduce new, dear my dear moving around that still has to be managed according to rules set by the state? Yes, and the reason for that is that is that interface between a free rein, populations of deer in captive populations. Adieu the release of captive red deer into you, know: high fenced ranches or what are called release sides there still ample opportunity for those dear to can act in in and have connections of course, we all know fetches or are anything but infallible. You know I blow out a water gap goes down. A tree falls on em, you know bull runs through fats, whatever group hawks run genome. Whatever show you know,

by no means or those impenetrable haifa operation in texas. There still are opening day. other still out. There still are opening day of of of deer season, and you know that's one of those great traditions it's a passage in and I wouldn't think of all hype, properties is somehow radically different than all low finch properties, either you know, because, because the scale yeah the scale of on that's it, that's a great point in don't fight in in in our listers thanks it, because some He has up half high fence around their ranch that they're involved in the breeding of deer, the captive breeding of of dear that's, that's, that's not necessarily the case when we have Two hundred fifty thousand landowners in our state and about a thousand dear breeders, but you know, law so high fancy ranches, but the scale of may be very vast, and in

Oh, you still have the same kind of opportunities. For you know, the fair che sin in and in hunting. However, you choose to too hot. There may be a fetch around, you know some or all of those property and that that France may be more or less effective it keep. dear aunt around it, so you know folks tend to think about text. As you know, in that way, and have this ferry can a negative ever pejorative perspective on on on on high fancies? If you come from states in which that's not so commonplace, what we really focus on is the management behind the fence, what they do and from a habitat management perspective Are they manage in it to promote habitat diversity? How they may which, in the game there the non game. The unique species in so

the issue is more that management and stewardship, not so much the height of the fat king explain. Some of the the governance around and dixon move those acts like like I'm assuming I couldn't process I got my hands on a truckload of jaguars, I'm assuming it has turned the jaguars loops dear now, so so is okay and what's not? Okay, yeah no show had those kind of wild, dangerous animals, obvious legal prohibitions, on forests being able to have one in captivity at all much less release one into the into the wild. Inevitably, after some hurt in or storm. In some area vienna. We may get a call about sir body that had alliance that nobody knew about, and you know obviously there's a lot up a lot of concern about that for obvious raised,

but for years you guys will have a list of the world's animals with a check or an x. Next week we don't in a parks and wildlife doesn't regulate exotics, and that's not that's not what we do at least on the animal side. We have some overlap there on aquatic exotic plants that were were involved in, but that's a whole different different area of management and stewardship and control, but from an exotic animal perspective, It is managed through the state's animal health, commission, okay and so different regulatory structure in an entity. You know there are certainly landowners. All across texas has got interest in exotic game. That's very popular fallow, dear access, dear black book, antelope all day out of vienna, many many free range in environments now and a lot of should that from a wild life in a hunting perspective, its it is pretty popular in our state, but we don't have any regulatory authority, have a hunting license to to hunt, but what

situations where that of wines up impacting the things that you do have purview over their great great question. oh so most of our wildlife work in taxes, as we talk about earlier, is on private lands. It's it's in concert with private landowners, its voluntary it collaborate, but this in perspective, we provide technical assistance on wildlife management to landowners, all overstay we have roughly. Thirty million, plus acres under a department approved while a management plan. That's about twenty percent of the state. So that's gonna evidence of that that interest you know the forcing our biologists are going to do with their land on our partners are. What are your goals? What are your interest, and so you know for landowners are interested in both exotics and native game. In a we want to respect that we're obviously much more interested in the native game and that's what we're going to work to help promote and really spend most of our time on.

and and- and you know, we've encouraged them to make sure that those numbers of exotics are managed in such a way that it doesn't have an adverse impact on the on the native game and particularly the the the native habitat. But again we want to be very sensitive to the goals of the individual and herself? A landowner is very interested in you know his or her access dear on their property or their black book antelope to the extent that can be incorporated into a while at management plan. Is landowners going to be me, and for that anyway, yeah and there are going to Hunnam they're going to enjoy them they're going to utilize them to the extent that all that can be balanced, that's just something that our biologists have to work through, but we're focused on the native gang, that's our areas of emphasis, but then, if someone owns and if someone has a property that private property they own an exotic on the private property, If that exotic animal escapes they no longer or at any rate now, you'd have to get, you know permit

from a neighbour to go and try to recapture that that animal that that that ownership doesn't extend like a lot, it's cow or a loose horse. So there are some some differences there. You know if I had that you know heard of of of of axis deer and went over to your rang again and I own overhung now now now are come over and flour and trap him and bring him back. You'd have the ability to file munich trespassing charges against me. So I'd have to have your permission, but I would not be able to go run down and sell your cat. Now now absolutely not yeah. Have there been cases in texas where you guys it had where there's been an introduction of an exotic where we had to go and sort of catch it and stop it successfully

the nature of the landscape. Here such that when things get out there just kind out, you know more of the latter than the former when we're thinking about wildlife and particularly large undulates, you know again you no kind of deer and elk like animals that we Han gotta remember This kind of history of landowners, bringing an exotic game for sport and also for wildlife conservation. You no help india and bring back populations, scimitar, horned or malaria and her eyes were oftentimes has been. Taxes will have. if more of some species than it does in his native ranch, yeah, that's right and it's a it, helps prevent genetic extinction that exactly exactly but that's been going on since the authorities and Fortys and fifty so there's a long history. So you know, you would say you know, take your most mode

the well known and populist exotic game, animals axis or fallow or psycho or blackbuck or all dad. You know, they've really naturalized, not native, but they've naturalized, so they're here to stay We are today. What we would see is. Perhaps there is a billy invasive or exotic fish or a snake or a plant that Biologists are made aware of in a localised area, more likely the result of some I retire to in his path bill and they turn it Lou. In a city park or a county park, we're going to find it and we're going to kill it. You know, and that's the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Because, just as you said, you want to jump on that and stop it from being a problem, and you don't have to talk to

any farther to something like zebra muscles or giant cell fanny and water, hyacinth zadig play highly deleterious azra, they just take off. So we ve An outbreak like that, like we're gonna, go hammer it with with herbicide dep amply what we can do to help kill those plants to keep it from guinea. Established. We don't see that so much in terms of big animals, but You know, occasionally our our our biologists will get a call about again a a snake and, or you know something or a fish yeah with it's localized that we can find and and and try to deal with that problem before it spread. What is your perspective on concerns about with chronic wasting disease significant. You know when you look at dare and deer hunting intact.

In the magnitude of that. Just how important it is from you know, not just the million hundred thousand hunters that we have in texas, but ah how important that is to real estate values in our state rural land values or in that's that's a good plan or thought of man. Yes, because the change owning dear properties, you bet huge. Instead, the people would be become obviously less interest. Yes, I know they'd be very concerned about it. You know just how important hunting is to our rural communities around the state, from a tourism perspective and an economic development. I mean you go to these little towns in the central part of the state, open, awaken a deer season and have cafes, motels and hardware stores, and the gas stations are packed to the gills, with people in camouflage and so at real money that that's outta county money and it makes an impact locally, and because it has a couple positives. Nora week we have to we ve got. We ve got kind of three nodes of sea debut day in our our states by no means

Pervasive of the first. node is out right near the new mexico border. Just east of EL paso in a little mountain range called the waco mountains, which is pretty isolated. We found it there and mule deer than we found it up in the panhandle, the northern part of our state very close to the new mexico line. And again we thank with free range animals coming over from new mexico, but we found it mule deer. We added a couple of Elk. We found it in a couple of whitetail and then down in central texas kind of the heart of some of the most populous deer country, and we found chronic wasting disease in four, pretty large, captive breeding operations and- and so we've been working very actively. to help deal with that? More of the board of the base limitations right now on you can't do anything. You wish you could do sure. What's the limitation on four, from your perspective I'm trying to slow it get rid of it.

and you you can't get rid of it. I mean that's really light taxes will not go back to being free ride everybody. Now I don't I don't. I don't think we. I don't think we will, but that our main were complaining about it. We somehow lay behind the log and say I we ve got it these three isolated areas. We're not gonna worry about it everywhere else, absolutely to the contrary, so our strategy is focused on three goals: in a forest we want to minimize the impacts of seed Ebby day to all of our dear populations, whether it's free ranger captive. Secondly, we want to make sure that we minimize the impact from sea dvd to hunting and hunting based a car peace, and that includes real estate values, rural communities, tourism hunter expenditures, all that and last but not least, it

If we want to make sure that our management actions or done in such a way that we maintain the trust and confidence of our hunters in our private landowners, absolutely critical. So those are the three tenets of our efforts and then from us from a strategy. Perspective were focused on two things: first is early detection, so what if it's out there, we want to find it so that all of a sudden you know we can get mandatory testing implies. We can get

work. Is movement. Restrictions implies we can get prohibitions on moving live dear into and out of those, but those goes ears imply so early to virtual, very active from a surveillance perspective. Our biologists are spending a lot of time in collecting brain samples throughout the year, but particularly during hunting season. We stratified the state, according to kind of statistical grids, to turn to sample at levels that gives us. You know varying level of confidence or degrees of confidence that we find it depended on the sample size. Quite a lot of effort on early detection and the sampling, and then it becomes a containment issue, and I am not aware of any situation and in any kind of a free range environment in which anybody has really gotten rid of it. So yeah it gets it. How do you arrest the spread of it and the too big

just threats to the attic horse or large aggregations of animals right and then the movement of an animal from an infected area. To another area, they move on a trailer or whatever some artificial movement of of of of deer. So You're, not working the kind of man manage densities in those areas and then also make sure that we don't have movement of deer into round of areas that we know half have seen every day. Again, it's a big issue for our First, I just because deer hunting. Dear management enjoyment Rural land is so tied to the health and enjoyment of deer populations in our state that we have got to take an aggressive strategy in dealing with it, Thankfully we have it in three isolated areas and that's how we want to keep it. Do you You ve, gotten. Adequate federal support on work was he'd everyday coordinate, in and support the Earl or all the states is kind of duke and out on their own. Well enough,

that's a real issue. That's out there you know. Historically, we had financial support through: u s d, a fist to help with monitoring the surveillance cause, we're we're spending very ray conservatively. You know, let's say a million and a half dollars a year on just the seed, everyday surveillance or member. That's time that that biologists, all could be spent in working with landowners on habitat management, alive management. You know working on game non game, whatever whatever other priorities that we have out there, so there's a real opportunity cost of time. Historically, we some federal funding to help with that now is Andrew and if there is proposed funding this year and the

house appropriations bill for the department of agriculture to help ensure that there's gonna be some funding made available to the states to help support that that surveillance. That would be helpful. Undoubtedly, there is a need for greater coordination across our country with respect to how do we deal with it and

you know is I'll. Look at that, and I would say you know what I mean: states have the jurisdictional authority over deer and Elk and largely there are some exceptions to that, but, but mostly and and we need to rest to respect those jurisdictional boundaries and states need to be able to choose how to respond to things just depending on what the cultural and political currents are of the state. Those are just realities that we have to deal with and while our politics as you as you said, but we could benefit from from additional federal funding coming to the states to help support adaptive management, more surveillance, etc. I think we could also benefit.

From a more coordinated, comprehensive look at targeted research, particularly testing, and evaluating these adaptive management strategies. That states are implementing kind of independent of one another, but you know it's not all done in some kind of a rigorous experimental design, type type setting, so some targeted research to test that and it needs to be overtime right. It needs to be longitudinal can't you study this kind of an issue for two years, a traditional master student inside I or done you need to commit to that over over a much longer period of time we also see capacity. Issues in in testing lab for

it'll be day, and so now we have all the the texas a and m the the veterinary medical diagnostic lab has a fabulous job, they're, really good partners of ours on and they're they're they're testing work as cwd samples, whether that's from you know, free range of populations or from captive red facilities. They really work hard at that, but the capacity is consider and so there's a lag in testing those animals, so hunter kills a deer and it's in an area in which it's a mandatory testing area, and you know if they have to wait six weeks for that sample to come back to no fault of of of of our lab. It's just a capacity issue, it'd be nice if we could accelerate that with additional capacity. Last thing that I think that could probably get some help on federally do is work on a more coordinated

consistent message for hunters to help explain seed abd wide is why it matters in what they can do to help address it Finally, there is still a lot of ignorance out there about the disease. A lack of awareness hunters it may be unwittingly contributing to the spread of it through the movement of infected carcass parts. At her so dinner's, just some just distrust and some distrust of government, the right man, this gap and that people are using it as a sort of proxy. I our fearmongering right, I you know, you hear that too. It's it's a fear mongering issue. It's do you have more deer, have killed by cars than you do by cwd. How many times have you heard that argument and so

effects such a relatively small number of animals across the country or a particular state in some cases that why are you so concerned about it? Well, you know it's a brain disease. It's always fight a fatal terrible. You don't need to comment on. But it's maybe even wrong about my assumption, but it would seem that the livestock industry would be very interested in sea, w g keenly interested vera, as we'd like as a hunter and the person that eats a helga deer meat. I'm concerned about the human health considerations, but I mean it would be catastrophic to the cattle industry should that disease is jump, the species barrier, the species barrier and and and and and also we had the bay like the equivalent of mad cow disease, death, a b s, a type,

situation, where you know the thing, then again you don't need to you, don't need to get into that, which is something I puzzle over that that you just don't. Maybe- and maybe it's out there on that privy to it- you just don't you're here that industry about. While what is this? Let's get a grip on this, we do in texas, you do we have. texas and southwestern cattle raisers, and you know their members are terrific partners with the department. Many of them are very actively involved in wildlife management on their ranches, and you know deer is the proverbial. You know goose that laid the golden egg.

And so they're actively involved very knowledgeable about this, and they do compare the very strict testing requirements and food safety protocols on on livestock and meat and meat related products because of that public safety in the making sure that the consumers are comfortable with the safety of the meat that they're eating very very focused on that from a market perspective, so they absolutely make that parallel in terms of advocating for yet more testing and appropriate testing and- populations. You know if see Debbie day is indeed up a problem, so yeah you'd be surprised at the awareness or linkage. Perhaps it's not verbal ized is much, or perhaps it's not talked about as much and in all states, but certainly the countermeasures in texas have been very

very strong partners with us in our efforts to help raise awareness and deal with this this this issue in texas. So last thing for you, One of the biggest challenges and opportunities you see, then your position, I'm guessing that you'd probably put see dvd among the biggest her yeah. Well, I mean, I think you know she deputy is one of those emerging wildlife related challenges. You know that did that transcends boundaries. You do you think at all these different vectors and port. In areas of commerce hinder and attacks- and so you know whether it be in a white notion, roman by ass, her she dvd and endear somewhere fungal disease and amphibians, or the introduction of you know exotic and invasive plants that proliferate and take over our legs like a bad out, it's got movie. You know those numbers are revelation: the host for thou surreal- and I you know we take

a pride in our lady of plant and animal communities. May we we we want to keep it that way, that that native wildlife heritage that outdoor heritage that diversity habitats we talked about. We want to keep those native unhealthy It showed there are challenges force, and so I don't wanna play. Let's pretend I mean we ve got a big grow state twenty eight million people grow and most of them very detached from the counter. Thanks it. We love that in and of itself it s true yeah yeah. Now now, interestingly, I think the most attitude nor surveys, that, irrespective of whether or not somebody is urban and rural, old or young, doesn't matter what the demographic stratified areas that today, people still of some kind of desire to see wildlife

conserved and protected? You know, they're still, they're still positive sentiments. I think what we all worry about and appropriately is that increasing generational detachment and what is at mean? Will that attenuate? Will it subside? Will it go away? What the, at mean for the future of you, no hunting and angling and and and responsible and ethical fisheries and wildlife management. Will we have the support from a populous that you have done hot in fish and so therefore does you know pay into the pay into the system. What I see the benefits of of that so that population issue competition for water courses, big fragmentation of ranches. You know it's harder to keep family ranches together for all. a reason. So we see him getting smaller and more fragmented and in that inevitably leads to habitat law there, not least a habitat law. So there

There are no shortage of challenges in a week at wicked, right war and peace. On that particular topic. All of those are opportunities is well. You know how do we better connect with an urban based audience? That is, that is detached from The outdoors had a we use technology, not as our enemy, but as our portal to connect people today outdoors and get them interested to come to places. How do we invest in more? You know, parks in public areas that are close to where people are so that they have easy access. How do we create war, mentor programs and how to wait? How do we help shape educational programs in the schools through all ages to make sure that people are getting a proper grounding in natural resources? Related literacy and you know, speaks to kind of the or three effort, that's going on nationally, where you know I think for

the fishing side of thing we ve got a real opportunity to move the move, the needle, certainly getting people at the outdoor. To enjoy wildlife. Maybe they're not going to be hunters, but we want them to appreciate hunters. We want to appreciate hunting. We want him to appreciate wildlife management, understand the sides behind it? The reasons behind it and in an why that can help all of the species of interests were charged with with managing so The challenges again or our opportunities is is as as well and I think, what's the the overriding can for all of us, irrespective of where we work is trying to leave our home ground bettered we found our body dog yeah unwary stole, but though he made it up. No, he stole it. It's not. Ours is our turn, our tar gap, during the last mile about now

now we ve cover the waterfront pretty way. I was the newer diana wedge in their attitude. Now gosh we have we ve trying to think. If there's anything, we did for that. Let me let me hear the magic louder and you can do one if you've got one yeah. This is going to go Imagine shame only earlier and the same conversation, what we talked about the the model in old, not hard and airports. Now you some others say that he has brought up was funny, you mention technology and in in people's engaging with the natural world, and he made a point that you seen guys like him and his generation. That's true of me, I'm forty five and this the same thing with me. We grew up in a world that like doesn't exist, and he like talked, you know right now found near bike with your twenty. Two right then happen. It is like it is, he says so. Many people in his aid

again include myself in it are, are figure like four p to engage the natural world. We need. capture and delays? to them. This child, this, like idyllic had. We had growing up in the rural parts of america. Where are you off in the morning, with your twenty to envision rod and came home after dark and is that's the mine for him and how we're gonna reengage people with nature in the technologies bad, and he says like that approach not going to work. I could hear more. We are not going to. We are not going to bring that back and make that a scalable model for what they ve engagement and you're. Gonna have to find a way to make them. At your world, make nature. Roy of it in a way that people can understand and they're gonna relate to how they do it. I feel That will happen in technology,

if it's going to happen, technology in an embracing of technology will be part of that I met you will not get time out. You will not get people leave a bind I couldn't agree more with that approach. It's a the the the other You shall wildly idealistic, will never go back, There are people who pull it off. We are very local, yes for very low if in in national tournaments, we talk about like and are increasingly urbanized where we live. It's like, if we're, if we're going to make it this binary thing you love nature and hate technology, and that's the only way we're going to win you'll. Never win that. You know that that that, if it was a battle which I don't think it ever was by the way. Although people love the frame, and a lot of it had to do with people exe apple lighting, making their own inferences from you know some of the findings that drove the whole. Alas, child in the woods movement. Children nature related moment, but I think most folks who are given this issue. Any real thought have come to. This

inclusion is technology is here, is here to stay its growing in its increasing Don't worry, it may kids chain and you can't make kids trees so made him we're thereat. Let them experienced it I've taken my I've got some young cousins that or you know, eleven twelve thirteen and yeah kind of mildly annoyed by the fact that you know we're sitting out there You know in again I'm blind or shopton in, and they want to post everything. Snap, chad and edge to graham and tell the story. You know electra equally and their smart phones or go and ninety two nothing. But you know what they seem to have a ball. So who is it me? to tell them no, I watch and enjoy it my way you can do it you're when you've got a joy mom, because we have the right mood. I say all that yeah yeah. Well, I just don't think it worked I'll leave you with this story. Fifteen You got a body that the mind it reaches out and far wish taxes sprawling ranch gets.

left alone buys his wife with his two young daughters, and I think they were four and five. She leaves too. Go into town, to see parents or shopping for that for the weekend and so he's doing parent duty at the range Yet he watched his two daughters one afternoon Ben their entire afternoon. Within about five foot, radius of a big oak tree in their front yard in it dawned on him at the time that hey you don't need to take I pulled a some big wilderness area, we'd all love to know that their there, but people can find nature anyway. They can find it and develop city block a lot a park green belt, you know written under a tree looking at your

building and there's a paragon falcon. You know preying on a pigeon. You know in downtown chicago it's not that we don't want to get people out into these. places we do, but let's help, I'm discover nature and the outdoors where they are not. It was interesting for that france to have that revelation about, you know the popular. as a whole. From watching two ranch raised girls on a bit. sprawl and ranch because of their interaction with one tree and their front yard, in how jist connected they worser. That thank rico, the interviewer recently asked me like where's the best place to hunt deer. I said as close to your house as possible. Yeah yeah yeah, no doubt no doubt yeah yeah annie. I know, we're short aren't I will leave. It is a good story to furnish good. I beg you very much for join us, thinks I'm sure your extremely busy, so they.

Given a solitude delighted, Bayard thank you for having. Tell me I started this guy filmed com and tell him yeah yeah. Me too go over two stars in the sky, film, dot com and by a copy of it. and I was just thinking the yacht by a second copy. To give. I dunno how that works. You get a link, you can give it to somebody, but you should buy it for a non hunter who's uneasy with han. That's right, Does this it's a very good, deep dive? into hunting, explores all the different realms of hunting,

We all know so well and are so easy for us to talk about and understand, but a steed has really good job in the documentary of sort of you know, opening it

up to in, in a conversation where people that are not endemic outside of our little hunting bubble can understand all these topics that we deal with and grapple with all the time you'll enjoy it. But I also feel like, if you're somebody that wants to promote hunting and make hunting cool again, you should pass it along to some folks. Yeah Yanni worked on the movie yeah, I'm working on it in a janis is the he's. The most honest man in show business there he sounded go watch yeah. I know I know for a fact. Thank you guys, stars in the sky, film, dot com, where you can find our new documentary available for streaming and download purchase.