The shirtless severely wounded and, in my case, unaware of the podcast. He can't predict the so I'm worm and wearing all my clothes in, but I'm in bed- and remember the old sitcoms and they couldn't show couples in bed. I do so they had the show that couples always had like little two little beds with a nightstand between them, and I was like how a couple slept in old, sitcoms and tv shows yep. That's how

mark all right now, we're in a hotel room were in little beds, laying in little beds in and dirt and the eagle are little chairs facing us, but we're in chairs marking and now you like. I asked even said this for that that the ear you use the term like your white tail guy you to take any like I others their enemies. Oil is slavery or what it means to be a way to your guy, because, like ours say that I'm a big game generalist which isn't really a category, you know no one, in big game generalists into or search engine, the truth Big game, Joe truth about big data generalists, But what is your small game exploits fit into being a big game generalist why I'm a hunting generalist, but in terms of

a big yet in terms of big aim of a big game generals- burma, hunting generalist, where the emphasis big game? Generalists borders, they'll guy mark. For me, wait till guy means that that's where I grew up on, so that was almost all they hunted growing up his white tales and now is still comprises- probably ninety some of my hunting and then most of my year. Otherwise I mean I'm doing why tell relates stuff, almost the entire from january, through December others, hunting or scouting, or preparing spots or school, all sorts of different things. So when I say wait till gaming, that is like my number one passion: it's also how make their living and then I have you know, as my only the travel and do different things has grown, need. I've been deadline, things which have really come to enjoy. I've been able to go hunting Elk now for the last four years. Still

learn how turkey hunt like six, seven eight nine years ago, so love doing that now, and you know I've passed through a small game as a kid too, but but white tails were what got me with a meat hook and the heart I'd say yeah, I did your foot touching the ground. That's interesting, I think that, when tv evolved to allow couples be in bed in one bed one of the wasn't it one of the people in the couple had them foot on the floor. Crazy rules. I think that once they could have the same bed that foot had to be on. The fourth was mother, though you really assay cereals. Yes, I think the marks fixing to come over to my bed. You know that would have been a really good trip stage, but I got toilets They as maya, what are my wife's biggest pepys above visiting my family? that as soon as I started dating kiley, they change my parents in my bedroom, where I grew up, they took out my regular false bed and replace it with too little too late

in cases, leftover yeah so now, even when we're still married- and we sleep in separate beds- are really regular, ozzie and Harriet actually like. Why do we still do this? Your parents did it for that reason, because, oh no, there they explained that it was because the the old ad was mad and they had company coming overspent a weekend and the happened no someone had these almost new beds and other son, the filing the family home here that that might be with actually happen comfortable. Are you didn't they? how comfortable are you saying make your living doing like like spell out what that means. Big allowed like most not more most, the world of usage aid. You wanna make your living hunting not most using the world more you might be inclined to be listening to this right now. Would would be sure what does it look? like what does it mean to be like to be like a profession, wait till guy so with them

for me: it's not actually the hunting that makes my living there. Really its content that I create based on those And since I run wired, honda com, which is you're hunting website and the word on podcast, which is a deer hunting podcast, so make promises five percent my income from advertising and things relate to that, and then I write for most of the big deer hunting magazines, I've written for outdoor life field and stream, etc, and so do some freelance writing and and then a little bit of like merchandise, sales and some digital ebooks, some kind of things that are basically content related to wait, till hunting. In my core audience in really were started was like that. The tag avoid. I was deer hunting for the next generation, so it's been really focus on really really serious white, tell guided thinking. White

of all your own and dumb yo producing content around that their lifestyle work that that southern. I think that You said some of the dog and dug set it to me. So Circle background: ask you bout. It were. Does it can seasonality to hunting gay and in the business of honey? So when I say the business I mean those like Content right dissonant likes stuff, the people watch for enjoyment serve the people large and read in order to learn equipment that people purchase activity. Rhone hunting is like strongly seasonal, where After labour day people start like theirs. a creeping interest in hunting, and then lingers past hunting season. Can this through the holidays, as people are still thinking about like

is still fresh in her head like stuff. They want to give up, they want to do is to excited about. It, occurs, share and memories about their fall, and then peters often and goes way and a dog recap conversation year with you and you're saying that it's kind of like in wait. Till word is comes almost that way anymore. I grew there what why because I there's always something to be doing so. I mean okay, let's just start the beginning of the year. In january and february, it's post season scouting, so you can. You can scout and see sign in so many different things, a lot better during that timeframe, tracks in the snow and as as a stone. Excuse me as the snow starts to melt in early, marcher, depending worry, rather than you can really see. Ruts related signs, rubs and scraped and stuff left over from the year before so long. that going on january through march, and then you lay february

march that is shed hunting, that's huge and the retail communities days. Some in times of interest, relate to shed hunting. And once you get later in the spring than ever ones worked on their habitat projects so that all April may june, you're talkin food plots or timber stand improvement. sore creating betting cover, whatever might be, and then you get into summer and that everybody is talking about how much he stands get out. Your trial cameras, as you were, gonna bucks or in the area scout and being fields, get all your file prep our true practice, well, practice whatever is you're doing all the way and then all of a sudden september and you're you're hunting again in some states, october, first and others, and spread out, but yeah in my le every single day of my year, something white hair it has gone on, except for the last like seven I do not care, but I don't care about when, when say you going on january to check tracks what what exactly you doing so mean that

situation like you, might be walking the edges of a cut cornfield and see. If you can cut a big track and if you cut a big tracking mine, okay, there's a mature buck potential here and if, This is done. That's a great opportunity to follow that track back in and determine whether bucks bedding and no risk there if a bumper nobody deal you learn and then you know he lived and the strong likelihood he's going to be alive next season and these these mature boxes, at least in the places where I hunt you know like michigan other heavily pressure states whose a hunters these books, they bed places for reason like nothing's happening willy nilly a book for mature back his bed, an area because he knows he's got no safety. it allow humans going in there he's got some way to gather quickly. He can observe or smell, what's happening throughout the day. So when you find those kinds of areas not only is

amateur, but that alive right now, probably going to continue use that, but that's probably going to be used in the future by future books of that book. If you kill that deer, someone else is going to come in there and pick it up. If you can identify those buck betting areas you're in a good situation, move forward. So you spend a lot of time backtracked dear, sometimes go what, when you look for a big track like what? What is the of everybody likes to eat? All areas, to think they know a big track. Gay Where you gotta do clause rs displayed I like the animal, gets to a certain weight like talk through some of that stuff, some of the fallacies and truths about like what is a big old buck track. Look like, I can't say, I'm an expert on this, but what I would look for his forefinger track, something that wide across their. If you ve got it, doesn't Like it's a running track, a walking track, a walking forfeit why track now? that my hands are extremely powerful, that

and yeah, so it's very subjective. I know that the various possess a walking track, forefingers, one! That's on a grown male yeah that that's have you heard that That's something! I've been told a lot in the uk is the walking track, yes or because any dear, nor any bucks track, looks big. If it's you, sir running or moving tracks. I agree with the I mean yeah. Imagine a forefinger track. Minutes. my cattle got out, we're done a hand off regions, I dunno press the most powerful be an interesting. When I do it, Point out that I did have you on on the hand of length, at least. Yeah, but when you factory in height. Like my portion you I've, told the story for mile man met John wayne in John wayne commented on my old man's hand at selflessly, proud of. Yes, What was the comment?

I will never shook a hand bigger than mine. Man, she said, and you never fought in war, and I did He said it I'll say it out. His name was ninety wayne is names Marian any sat. The war out well I my dad rubbed his nose and the direct john forward. Rub. John wayne knows in that, as ford was in the service and did propagate the films and put his life at tremendous risk may tabs and later on, when on, to make all these great western John wayne infer lord would forward embarrassed and ridicule wayne about his lack service. Interesting your knowledge about films has surprised me and this dude I like movies. A lot may not realize you had that catalogue in the mind, they're interesting, big buck tracks. Do they get, does a big, huge buck track,

as he gets older. Does it does it round off on the two? I think it varies Individual? I think you see this isn't something I've gone as far to do by. some guys and probably should try do this more, so they will act they go about trying to identify individual box by their tracks in well. They ruled as an above Eden tort that's what I'm leaning towards. If you want to jump into that jump into that yeah. So there's I haven't done this yet, but there are some guys. I know that can look at certain tracks. they look again or can they say they can? I can't verify that, but they tell me they can identify. I like little chink in it or rounded edge on one side or something of the shank. I would believe a chink yeah, something like that and then so here's something some people do to to make this a little easier make track catchers. So, let's say you have got a food source and maybe there's a handful trail, the leader that foods us, let's just say it's a cornfield and there's a handful of true

leading to that cornfield. You want to know how is buck x coming in this area Some guys will do as they will go in there and they break out about backup, I'm sorry you mean that year out with you with your workers and you see a big old I stand in a field, and you like In your seat, you're wondering like what what role is he used to gear that? How can I had him off, because what is in it a mechanism correct so so so that case, then you curious, like you know, back in the woods. What are they doing before he arrives here: yeah, ok and so one, whether their several ways determine that one you could observe if you can find observation stand are so that we can watch that and see the timber number two. You could use trail cameras so actually put cameron, trails of modern that way or third way is, is making these tractors.

Essentially will clear out an area on that trail, really clean and flat without leaves and make the nice even dirt area and then come back in the next day and see which One of those trails has that big bug track or maybe you saw the buck come off trail x and you know to go check that eye catcher, because you know he walked through there and you can see that print cleanly pressed in there say. Okay, he came through here. This was track, looks like take a picture of it or something then peter. You ve got one more to on your chest that you can use a trailer pattern that dear you are you are you familiar with familiar with, but but lion hunters in the desert, a guy. You're hot lies in the absence of snow. We carry rambler whisk brooms sunday, foreign brooms, the dust out. You just have to talk to but clean on any kind of little crossing spots or like dry, creek beds, discharge, see existing concept.

We do that is our common guides, like certain bigger too those that we walked a lot and you'd get to certain sections that were just like soft and sandy, or you knew that it was some sort of like a just a crossing or whatnot in Austin our tracks, and so we would clean him out and now a next time. what do you get off? Somebody was here last for our yeah there's, alchemy area, one one fur trap and you Infor trap me: trapped, muskrat, mink and raccoon and beaver and stuff. You pay a lot attention to undercut banks. Like a lot. Animals like to do tat to move along streams are always use under cut back because it gives you overhead protection, I sent you like your little mink work and you not expose the avian predators and and whatever else, and is a lot of food under their because all the other shit, let's try not to get eaten, is all living under the undercut. Bang. He and our go along. I go on my hip boots. It's I'm here to undercut bankers low, but a sand or mud on the bottom. You just what I think

about a kick water opener to slip it. so the next time he came by and see you know, you'd like slick it out to make to see if there's a mink work in it or whatever so yeah, it's a cat. It's like a technique probably has its private invented many time yeah. You know what makes us a simple but effective. Oh yeah, like the first time, someone did it and show it to me. I was like oh I've been like walking this trip, three years, you know how hard yeah yeah. So that's the january kind of activity now shed Han yeah our people, like or do it's own sheds, because they're trying to learn what kind of boxer about are these hunches? They want to find if they'd like to have them. Like is the ladder, I think it's a combination of both elite. Well, for me, it's often mostly guys. I hang out with its both we will write. Sailors are cool

I love having Naylor my hand and get a look at it and yeah minute around. Given the people in your house, I usually I'm giving people oh yeah, they're few and far between in michigan dogs loose for the schools what not yeah yeah the old guy yeah you. If he's thinking about the end yeah, it is funny that you say that, though, because with your mark, hussain deer hunting or what was it for the next generation yet to hear anything, that was one of the conversations that we had up there on the mountain was that I'm twice his age, and I am It'S- it's a bitter sweet it's a bitter sweet thing, though, to realise my god, you, the old guy you they become less and less important to me I I used to very much dislike horde. I'm never wanted to give him away and then eventually I was just like really. Why are these important to me? A threshold

maybe like I feel like I'm just starting to get to that point where I haven't the first was so like I had to and then ten and then twelve and like it's such a special thing and then once you to a certain number yet is easier to part with them, but if it's on your part pretty it's nice to know yet mean, I found both sides on a couple of different occasions and that's why I want to kill this year yeah or if I kill this year's going to be cool to have it shed. Yeah this, the ok so to riga? and I got myself almost up. I get it the shit, but monica begs the primary question. Yes, So with all the trio cameras and watching and look in scotland and all that kind of shit, you tell me now and you ll find it shed antler now back up for the real neo fights here. Dear. Go way back up, dear lose their answers every year. So we would, over the this shared it. A deer drop.

aunt, learn, regenerates it every year. So one people talk about her burns in antlers of sometimes people say they all that dears horns any ok, that's fine, but is not a horn, a horn An animal keeps his whole life mount goats, bighorn, xibalba, crazy, african animals, they got horns and the? U retain your horse with one exception,. Prong horn, the american prong horn or antelope, is it is the only horned animal that sheds its horn and girls, you every year and horns or like basely, made out a hare antlers are like bone. so when we say a shared remain like the annual shed and in a buckle with some exceptions, but generally a buck, every year is going to grow, bigger and bigger antlers. If he's fortune, enough to live so long and hits what age mark

it's seventy older. Now they start they start to go back down here, but typically yeah, but one of the one of the thousand bucks lives that old yeah. They just don't live that long too much shit happens to them. So you're telling me that you have in all the thinking and scout and look in trail came in the year up to the union. Find a shed antler and be like. I didn't know that this book existed well, it depends if it's a property that you haunt that I've been doing all those things yeah that still happens really so he lived this whole damn year, but nash Yet, as ireland evaded your attention, lots of times of these dear have different ranges. So, like the box that I'm seeing in the summer and hunting season, but those of those may be very different than a bucket, shows up in march and sheds sailor, for example, there's a deer. I've been hunting and watching for couple years now that he shows up on this property like the first week as september, right when aunt or when the velvet comes off, he relocate their full range device

Probably wouldn't you like, like like give it an egg, reject what you're talking about. So there is a proper in. men michigan that I hope that as a ninety acre farm, that I permission to hold onto smart, relatively small, small farm yeah yeah I mean it means all relative red be remember. They got like a b in in Michigan. When I the in michigan and we're hunting, we hunted alot of like working for and farms that were big enough to support in our family, A lot of farms and the range of the three to four hundred acres in the area. I grew up nearby us at least everything's, going fractured, smaller allergy properties. I mean it's all forties and eighties these days, almost as what I do so I feel somewhat fortunate to have ninety acres to hunt on there, and that gives me enough to where half of it, it's open field, so you can't do much with that. But then the other half has some cover installed. You do not dog and not have. Ninety acres. That's fantastic! I'm just trying to clarify

who don't like deal and acreage, is in their head and killed or its argument You pointed out couple days ago that so funny to hear me talk about properties when honey I'll west. Doesn't yes, don't think about it all, but I think that everyone I hunt way than around. That's how you worker I've got permission on two properties or I've got this property, that property that you can hunt and you have to cherish those because their fleeting getting permission they can. You can lose a quick. They kicked off probably like we drove to behave they sell off monday or saying little cousin had to pay. That happens. Cousins are the bane of hunters man. Because every do their own property its inevitable. They got some damn cousin who ventures, gonna come round want to tap into his birthright and boots you off the property but yeah, ninety agar property, then you have freedom to roll mare, but in all the surrounding properties, you might not be able to work.

Perhaps there is someone else's business, yeah yeah, I I try to get permission as many places as I can. You know to to increase your flexibility and your options and stuff. So in some places I have permission on multiple properties, some places just a tiny little piece here or there, but in this case you have got Ninety three by other landowners in his book of interest book of interest in a heap he shows up in September he hangs out till january, and then he disappears for more say what you mean like shows up from. Or like how far away? Could it possibly be that a mile or two I've I've heard and seen examples of a mile or two yeah it could be? It could be just on the other side of your six hundred forty acre block them. So I know like in some cases like in this, I owe a neighbour of sword, distant neighbour, that I The communication with has gotten summer trail cameras of this book, but I've never seen him or got visions. but then he sees him almost never during fall. I see him all the tender and for decent move there. Because of because of something going on with agricultural timing,

or do you think it has something to do with him prep and coming in because he's fixing the mate some does. I can't necessarily put my finger on it If you know the crops are rotating every year. So it's not like he's only going over there on years when it's a soybean year and then he comes Where am I when to soybean you're on my on the property? I can there does not necessarily that you know a lot of allowed times boxes refer to summer in areas with more mature or a soft is when you get those big velvet antlers there so I want to get in the thick nasty stuff that they know that they would, in the later, in the false who sends you see, mature, in the summer and like have a telegram ass. They might bed and hang out. there's a big mature timber stands at her closely to soybean, feel or something good summer. Nutrition. Then, once you get in September austrians rising. Valor comes off. This relocate lose fall ranges where number one there's better fall cover, because once this leaves come down, they require different cover

The number two they wanna go, where there's gonna be more doze, because of course, that time here it's coming up the rut, but they want to establish their own space from other books. They they need. Space holds us dear you're. Looking at this book should be five, and have this year oh yeah, which in Michigan doesn't have no doubt. I have found that older, the dear gets the elder. The buck gets the less. He moves, tighter korean jeddah, I've seen and heard the same, What do you feel is dears koreans like how much I should say what you think. Because it's no now because a tracking data, it's like it's, not intuition anymore, like how much space is away till dear use. So I'm gonna get this specific number around here, but There's a home range and a core ranger kind of the terminology is thrown around the home range is something like where that bug spends about seventy five percent. That will take it back yep about seventy five percent of his movements.

are gonna be within that home range and that can be like three hundred since two thousand just like that, like a relatively large area where he might at some point time, turn yeah, but then there's a core range. Where is he spain, the very mostly that's must concentrate amount of his moment, and that can be forty. Sixty eight acres some tighter, where he's bedded most of the time or he's gonna be feeding most of the time but then there are those these forces like. It's well proven he, especially during the right that box and even doze. We'll take these extended forays randomly mild too the orange seemingly at random, possibly found the door different things like that, and lord return back to that core you'll week later, something. It's always going to add something, but it's interesting to add, to sort of compare it to what the arizona guy see with their white tales, because it's so much more oh,

ray and they get to serve experience. What you're talking about through their binoculars at two miles away. You know we talk to some guys. It kill box that they have seen like sleeping underneath, need the same cactus or same oak tree. You know dozens of days. You know like interest, they don't move Sometimes these boxes living one little betty king, it you know and sleep under the same tree. There's a story, heard about desert. Wait! You you over the details, Jani somewhere, Someone in our circle of associates had found why taylor coups dear under a tree and has a big nice balkan, wasn't season and it had distinctive antlers, And then they looked for it and looked for and looked for it. over the next several years. This is right, could never find it. one day they found again laying on.

the tree just, was Air product may maybe used in that little pocket the whole time be ever were they talk about these guys who's your lot because you because you're looking at us like like in the middle, as always wait till activities hidden from view. You know and do us up, but like out there were its open yea you get back in this serve the whole thing or data about his glass up, a big bach. Find in his like identified? Has little zone and then his fine little snipers perch, somewhere like in the vicinity of his zone and use lay there for a couple. They re weight from to do is thing and use like pekin in on it. You know, is in the luxury you have enough and flat flat, timbered brushy country there. I will point out, though, to your point: yes or

those core and home renders the amount of movement even a white tell them it western northeast. That is very habitat, dependent too. If you're, in an area where they have to travel. Much farther this is, is to get between decent food and in good security cover. It can be much by taking an area where words evenly dispersed, cover food law, cetera those numbers tend to be in that so the buck you're. Talking about that the button got to be five would have yours or how did he get to be five and a half years old like? How is he avoided getting shot four times so when just every bucket shot or nobody of every bug, venture gets hit by a car killed by kyle's. shot by gun or just whatever other accidents befall tangled up in a woven wire fence I've seen quite a number of times over the years, like just stuff, happens to yeah. So I think a lot of luck right, I mean cause all those things you listed up. Fences, cars, coyotes know that stuff has happened yet. But outside of luck, I think two things number one

he has a very tight courage like he- I've never had a buck that I've hunted and observed. That is so. mitchell, in a smaller than he uses a guy during the hunting season, because of how this properly others big hill up towards the front of it sit on and I can look down over. I can actually see a decent ways into this areas and field and that you can actually see this brushy like multiflora floor rose, type stuff analyse, have great cover and tallgrass, but from high. I can see down it. I just don't you guys ever chase cottontails down that multiflora know now, that's our a property, but I can see it in that book during the hunting season. Is there almost every day I mean he stakes stays are very smaller, so I know he's possibly gonna come feed on the property. I can hunt he's gonna bed just over the age and a stake stuff, and then, if I one are these dwyer to stands right and see that area. I can almost almost guarantee

see you are due to their property do not often so that's the thing that we ve got going as that hotter there that doesn't go and very often so he has sanctuary there in that properly most of the year and that on the pro alcohol, I'm very, very careful about how I hundred and one one hundred so he's got kind of a two property section: there. That's almost hunter hunting pressure, free that he can roam around and so he's got that going for him. only friendly with the other guy. Yes, Does it does? He is you wear this buck? Also? Yes, he doesn't know, we haven't talked about it to a degree, I'm obsessed with this bug yeah, he might be aware, like oh, I heard there's a big buck back there, that's what a lot of people think of it, but they don't think of it like what is it actually upped, yeah yeah so so be it. We we like had drinks together and m s. Dollars is nice book that I see every once in a while and so he's on board with the idea of let's, let's, let's let deer get bigger and stuff. Yes, yes, yes, I think he's not quite

serious about zion, but we've talked about in the past, and it sounds like he's not interested in shooting your gear and a half old box and stuff. So there's a couple different people. I've tried to meet everyone I can in the area and most of them, I want to see bucks get a logo John. I'm such a good thing in the general area. Where there's a handful, proper or they don't do that it called where they do, but in the second or third. I guess that has allowed this buck to get to the point, and maybe I'm gonna take too much credit for self, but I've chose not to kill so the very first year. I saw him. I saw him the night before or the night before, opening day of bow season in michigan, and he was a nice three and a half year old buck was the best looking buck. I had seen on the property that you're in. At that point I was. I was interested in shooting the three and a half year old there in michigan cause they're still hard to find too He was about that. I would shoot, but opening night came in a different back him and I killed that dear, and so I decided gonna kill this other dear because of our taken office property. So just because you down there,

it's a season, so he got. He got a free pass for us that year I had him within bow range later in the season, then chose not to shoot them last year, he'd be a fool. We're old and again I was seeing him. Ullah had learned a lot about him for the past year, so I definitely wanted to shoot him last year. Had I Ah him with my own eyes, twenty seven times during the season: lasher harem, crazy, right, had a shot at him at forty yards one evening, but it was a great last light. I just didn't feel comfortable taking a shot in those condition, Oh, but you would have shot last year. I wish I, unless you how many lies a horn of antler. Does he have so last here he private have been like a hundred mid one thirty, a pointer as a runner year old as a four year old and which is a really good michigan buck yeah. Well, I but so you had always entirely early in the season gun This comes as a guy. You know. I think I could pull off he's. Probably they killed her and guns season made

may piece of that reality, like I have now some experience of this dear he's probably gone, but long haul december shows up, he still live in something like I clicked in my mind and like early december, when I realized he'd made it through all october. He made it through all of november in the rut and gun season. realize, while this dear could actually making another year already I darted killed two bucks an hour to kill two bucks, last year in several those areas. I need to fill another other tag out, need to kill this book. He probably could make the next year and I've just come back it's been a very anything to be watched over two years have become so invested in, like this experience, in this interaction with his dear that a kind of get the power. You know I liked it I'd like to see if you'll be run next year. As a writer at this point The writer you can't kill some bitch at this point you gotta be like this story would be

and there he was- and I had this chant ears to move the golden seal now. There was a had a chance, and it just like yours, you dear her now What, oh, my god now I know what you're thirty years old I saw the one hundred and five times by the time I was as a vietnam movie. You don't know like I have heard of it. I just haven't seen boy in pennsylvania grow up In the mining world every year they hunt they go beyond the mountains every year, and they got vietnam comes in the green, raise they wanna been a prison camp to one of the prison camp together the visa use them to make bets on russian roulette. They get dvds aged come home robber deniro goes up back home,

with his friends. For some weird reason, a red stag comes out The movie, the ice video year is fine in american movies. There is get red, stags lighted. They make that mistake last the mohican know whom who made the movie deftly is now while, while stay stay comes out, but deniro doesn't shoot steady starts, you know it's like it's over, over and don't you the golden seal, the very valuable seal a seal. Are we talking because you see well, I dunno a good anime ring seal. I came out of those when I was a kid. So as an adult dude finally gets a crack at it finally gets a crack at it and decides not take the shot. Okay I get so. I think now this book, when you get the chance you gotta, be let him walk off into the sunset man, because, don't you think you know all too well now to shoot em I mean

forgetting that were I've gotten on transport. Is your dog, no dog? I would shoot. I would shoot this new. How is this dear? After all these years, of interactions. How are you gotta go jab an arrow into. I know it's a really weird paradox: who cares you're out of prison right, like fashion unworthy and in the bay of industry, is facing its gonna pull back and shoot that, where his ox doug, comfy shoes without sex postcard, low morales Erin. I heard them toes outer so I'd know I'm interested in this, but that is how you gonna get. Permit me, where exactly is this I've written? I do that too. So we can do, it used to be, and aiders is just starting to get some junker. So up to this point, I really so. I have a that's fine, that's fine

in some heavy shit here right, a fire in the tigris rising modular god stickers. Well, so so he is a. He is a tight in tall. A pointer has been that the last two years it has gone heavier every year, but I dont know what it looks like this here because I haven't. We have seen and focuses on the disease in a citizens, europe and lay over. So I saw it always go shop, you don't I don't so right, read my car right about now is when you just shows how, through still a lot of this, is not done. Delia order, Madame de la check, very know in december, he through the hunting season. They made it all the way through march. I saw him in march still superior think it. So you you don't know I don't, there is. There is less he's out walking on new trees down every night right now yet, but was starting right about now. He uses starts so. He slowly sheds never found it.

As I have what's his name? Don't his name does have years I've got nothin, I wait till death. Do not. You saw me neighbour care with the area you need once no age angel. I won't be ashamed at all. Why nanda snow king snow angel lake snowflake, he picked up days, all sort of based on snow feed it. What does his name I will tell you know, does sound ridiculous, as some people have resigned but noted that efficiency think it is, efficient. It's all because of the game. Stuff l says El Ojo lc at a mobile vab. You know we do it with a hint of sarcasm sarcasm, but I think everyone at this point does with a hint sarcasm. Almost there One doesn't sarka because there's some outlandish names out there,

but I mean what am I going to do for three years? All you know that one eight pointer that I've seen twenty seven tell exactly. Why did try to just try to dub occur but we're looking at that one care be way over there. Yes, he did but is cumbersome myself against resettled and snow asia. So this buck. I refer to his holy field because he's got this thing. I have his ear yeah, so it was a natural fit and and yeah hopefully either when I get back, I don't think so much less of you. If you jack an arrow ended this dear after all, this time together, but on bail. its I'd be really disappointed if you re like the amber, if you The opportunity is, there, ll be no audio. Here's that there's no way looking at it he's walking dead, but even the he's gonna get killed. yet he just like he's at the end of his time on earth. Its guy ever to have by someone or something yes, it was

pressing the last year. So I've upon guess what, about all these things with my own audience a lot, and so the story of holy feel, has become like this long running thing that always people are following him the last year when I decided, you know that I dont think I want to shoot him this year and I explain a little really lay the conversation out you're, going through my thought process and in wider I dont want do that. There was a in an incredibly passionate response from a lot of people a lot of people were like, I totally get it and a lot of people. I can't believe you're not going to shoot at your letting us down like killed damn buck what we want to strike. So I'm gonna kill. You want a resolution here. They want to read out into the story. But you said it was pretty equal. Yet other people that were like, oh I'd say was. It was ninety percent like totally get what you're saying, but then there was a very loud and passionate ten percent that wants that deer dead just to see just yet

this resolution is to have their story wrapped Alec there's a lot of people that feeling their lead the curiously through this experience like and because it has been such a consistent thing. We talked about in some people, I just so sick and tired of me talking about it. I just want to move on to something refreshing about you. I like about you. One of the things is that the the this sort of these national standards and big box by where people sort of like what is an acceptable big giant bach, is set by very specific regions that, just for a multitude of reasons are able to produce janet, I beg you giant box right, they biggie giant box, you, sir, for wild like Alberta right, that's where big bucks came from and then I'll be in it, so places like some places in illinois, and I was starting to crank up big box, they had set sort the national standard of what's a big book. So if you gonna put a box,

like the cover of a magazine. But other covers magazines are oftentimes, not even real box. You There are magazines in existence. That's who have editorial stance against the captive service industry, so they have an editorial stance against pen raised dear can't haunts. Yet they do were in their own, covers with pen raised bucks. And it creates the same way that you here and I m a tune this now that have a daughter. The same way, the here that there is a standard of beauty put forth by the fashion industry and by the media that is unachievable by most women who don't have Time and money to devote to there here is where we re like a beauty standard. I made I am aware this is keep me up and neighbours the thing we will talk about this in the hands of bucks right but you have blake you, for whatever reason, don't feel that you,

you're able to look at me like we're. What is like good for the area like what is of a buck kind of for a normal guy hunting normal kind of little ninety acre parcels of land in heavily hunted area and celebrate those dear without feeling that you need to go down in an indian go down to taxes to a high fence place to enter into the real white tail guy world. I think that one of the one thing that has come out of the deer hunting Media world has been just the setting of unrealistic expectations for people cause. If you watch tv all you see, are these gigantic box being killed,

so easily. It seems every single time you watch a show, but they're in iowa or illinois or kansas and they're hunting, tightly managed thousand acre chunk. It's just something that ninety five percent of people can't relate to. But then you get people, even especially maybe newer hunters that watch that stuff. That's their only way of establishing a context for what is good. I wonder what I'm supposed to do so then they start hunting and they're thinking. Why can't I shoot the buck like that and they get disappointed frustrate the hang a dynamic apologetic above the dear old time, which is the death of the really painful part meares and people ex ante pigs like yeah the little one you know, but I do think it makes a disrespectful to the animals man I think any animal you kill amene should be celebrating respected, and that is awesome having everybody needs to set them own goals for what that spirit for what experience they want. So for me you know I like to target your box? Because I want a certain experience of that hunting sees devour shoot. First dear, I saw my hunting season. We done

we'll be deleted. It be an evening law evening event, so so out of my honey experience. I of course want me, I also want a lengthy experience. I wanna be out there. long period of time. I want to be learning and observing and interacting these animals. I want to challenge- and you know, hunting mature buck allows that whole thing to happen, and I enjoy that chest match enjoy whether be a situation like this, hunt, one single property and learn a specific barkley, there's a really interesting, unique way to engage with with an animal and I also enjoy the challenge of going to a brand new place. I dunno anything there and I just enjoy the challenge of trying to learn that property and learn what's happening here. How can I interact with? How can I setup and kill a deer here? There's something really cool about all the different things with that book. This book they're watching for these three years. The right for three years I ve been where have him for three years this book to be awash,

years. You know so intimately and he's kind of in the autumn of his life, whether you get him or not, is in the autumn of your life, all that that somebody It would make the cover of a magazine. No no you're ready collective and close link. Why is that? ok I'll. Let me that socially, which is what let's explorer socially the war may, the cover the massacres doesn't mean sort of the national thing sort of them the national, somewhat false notion of what a big bug is supposed look, that's a social aspect, but. why is it that that dear can be found? and a half years old and b that big, but a deer from buffalo com they wisconsin, that's five and a half years old. You can build fit that that dears antlers inside that buffalo county years antlers. So is too high level things going on there. One would be

Pretend nutrition and one will be genetics, so this book just doesn't have the genetics to develop into a gigantic dear miss he does his body is gigantic. Gigantic ailer dear, are very rare. I mean even in places like buffalo county, there still relatively rare, compared to average some most mature. But probably even in the best pleasantest in the country, are still gonna, be a five six year old buck with great habitat nutrition, maybe would only be forty role. Does it all in those places all old box aren't huge, not all it's always about her right So there's always going to be that average? You know most of your bucks, maybe at five or six might be one hundred and forty hundred and fifty Moreover, and taxes in the amount of light call box that manager was shooting that they were they were in their right. There were forty or fifty inch box.

But he was shooting up for a cobbler regions, one they were getting it big, but by making them all out along with hundreds of doze here leaving more habitat, more nutrition? For you know that there really channel in interesting thing ass, you think that that is brought up is about stress, rages, less competition other dear that by undisguised this guy manages an extremely large property for some. Really wealthy individuals. and his mandate is to produce to have this giant property. more than ten times the size of the property you're talking about. I believe that he's supposed to use every year to gigantic box, that's his mandate and he's a full time manager on this place to create two gigantic bucks in his

to create you digestive, but the jaguar bucks. Once he identifies some candidates, they go and start and systematically remove the competitors. Those candidates to give, competitors. Less stress because stress inhibits antler growth, I would concur, that falls into your habitat and or just heard dynamics. So this bar feels like you. Lucky, but meanwhile he is being watched in in coddled, but you would think until you talk the guy, but then he talks about this that, even with all of that, there are box that vanish and there are box the all. that you see him once and never see him again near the mystery like, There is still a tremendous amount of mystery. Is watches he's like just actively doing this, it may one day. One shows up on a camera, need never see him again, but innocent fig, their country

you- and I will miss- can be a thick when this is a country that there's place. We just don't even go into it because it saw authority, Nasty earnings like twelve feet high once get up on a ladder so holy shit. You see a long ways, but you get half underground, yes skills, so so that genetics deal and then the nutrition yeah and then you made it could be good soil porcelain. Soil and then what what kind of available food sources and everything so, of course, deer that live in agricultural country are going to have terrific amounts of of food and protein things. They need. The girl began antlers,

and then soil does make a big difference too. So that's why you see such tremendous production of big antlered deer along like the mississippi river corridor and all that stuff going on, thereby you dug, and so those types of things do lead to these genetic or these aren't going to come freaks. But these huge antler deer that you're not going to see as often in other places. so help them back on your dear again, so how big of a dear? How beggars how big a body has astir he's a tanker, bigelow body, just a huge earthy chest, his neck like seamlessly goes right into his shoulders and chest and when he walks rhymes, those curls on his neck can turn of food flora and you ve got the sagging belly so yeah, I love just a big bodied mature buck I mean, and what we're too

la about inches and and stuff, and I just want to make sure there's a cool right and we join big antlered dear. The need to see there with a rare. Their special, because I would have thought about large antler dear, are are not the the average senior to see are there to be, in my opinion, there to be appreciated and valued in and they need to hunt. But that's not all. There is like. There is such an error, craig in the white world, so many people are fixated on that have around for forever forever, but I'd just always want to be careful to make sure that, even though I might talk about a conversation with that, all there. Is there so much more to it, like so glad, rob body size and ever things like that were or history and experience dear set of circumstances, I mean all those things make that hunt that dear special

I'm glad you brother, good. The crisis can say you know you folks talk about trophy country and the trophy hunting that sort of stuff in the end, and I think it's the same thing with white tales. My my favorite hunts are the ones that we ve had these great stories about a group of people awning together We get this dear orb or like your story, where you watched him for a period of time and and you know, rather than if he came out and I well. I never saw him before and I shot him and it's not much of a story yeah. It's not it's not that it's not a great or anything like that, but I think sorry really makes the you know. Maybe this suffering every sort of like with we just did you know we could have, the care be a hundred yards from our camp right, but we went out once the full experience I mean each one of us did some more than others- but I don't think, did I want to get back to like the aunt the scoring system, and what you owe me one is a hundred forty in advance by our point out that as a good,

sorry. If all of a sudden, a dude didn't know about pops out, because the the the the woods sport be an element not supposed to be a nice and there's an element of the unknown and an element of surprise and an elm of mystery. it doesn't like. I don't think it needs to be that in order for it to be legit, it needs to have like this agricultural overtone. Where you're like raising this deer up and taking care of him. I think there's lots of different ways. It can be neat I mean like my experience, I'm having with this dear, I think, is unique and like super valuable and I'm really enjoying it, but I think to your point too sure open a new place and seeing idea of the first and that that that moment, when he first See this dear the shock like oh my gosh. This is going to happen like that, can be really special to do, but I think different I'd like to surprise, you know one of the I on our farm. I used to do a lot more trail, cameras stuff, and I still do a lot of it on client properties, but I I haven't had drunk hammers out at all this year and very

very few even at the end of the year last year, on our property, whereas I had them on other other people's property, because there is what I'm supposed to be doing on my sort of like I dunno it's like that element of surprise also hear about this popping up more and more, like the white till community, like that exact notion being that countries like So unless we are overloaded on our cell phones, so you need to purge it for awhile and use your take off your face gap or ever sooner on their all time is too much. I know people that I feel the about trail cameras are at last history of it you know every singer. No! Ninety percent of that you're ever see. So I could. I can tell you and I enjoy using trail cameras, but the same time. I do like the idea of of that mystery. surprise excitements, I know geysers gardener get rid of a new the trail of alike, shook hands like does the hop view, there's a like about one. It is you becoming more educated right, No more, you have more information, no more about

animals and how they move and how they interact with their environment is a valuable asset to Show came images have like a surreal beauty to them that just like that, just the sort of the without the hand of man really there at the second dislike. These motions sensor activated images, sometimes just incredible like it clicks, at the time when a person wouldn't click and the result is sometimes like stunningly beautiful of animals in their environment completely He unaware of any kind of intrusion, does a beauty to it. Absolutely now. What earlier market I'm step back but as you Tom, a hundred forty into the ethical popular, I understand so what referring to the number that comes from the bruening crocker club, boone, crocker club and or ponyo you in or pope was up in iraq from it, but boone crockett

originated right, cried reverie! Are that in a predate they predate pope number. Dear it's essentially the same measuring system is just once bow ones: fire red in the late eighteen, hundreds early nineteen hunters, one wildlife populations in america were collapsing and near collapse in some of them gone Theodore roosevelt and other number of Influential conservationist hunters started a group called the buddha crack club. And their initial mandate there. Their initial, like reason for existence was too, stab less and push for the info. Cement of game laws in yellowstone was on the first places, so had this idea that, let's have it be that instead of the unregulated commercial slaughter of wildlife. We was ablishn bag,

bits and seasons and parameters under which people hunt, and that was how the buddha crockett club, that was their initial, think there were started from the ground up. There was nothing in place. The system of scoring that event she came out of this was a wage you can log animal populations in at the time in oil you didn't have genetic stuff, you didn't have sophisticated aging data and they didn't understand like tooth analysis and all this other kind of shit. A thing that is very obvious is The antlers on the males or orne then and bears the gent schools eyes, so you can't away to say like how can we objected? we measure in animals antlers in a way that is replica. Bull were any to individuals, could look at it and apply the same metrics to it, and they. with a scoring system. The thinking being that, if you

where does score these things and then track these populations overtime. Since laws are a product of age and habitat aged environment. We build a to long term and short term trends and antler growth and tell about the stability of a population. If you have a part malaysia. Less aid is delivered in congress. A summit I say in colorado: you have that every year, colorado produces ten bucks that have that school, a two hundred on this measuring system. Ten metre, barks sky two hundred or better on this measuring system and any realise a decade goes by and not a single buck, comes out of colorado score. You two hundred others measuring system. You would look and think Something is amiss, rattles. Something is not there. That was there once, but now not but now, in addition to that, people also Libya, I think it is

years ago on an island where I have on a hunting and fishing shack years ago A non rise was allowed to bears on that island every year than became like a bare then it became the you had to draw permit- is about a fifty percent chance of being able to get a bear on the island. That was because they I noticed a very slight, but gradual decline in the average bear school coming off there, ireland, and that hinted to them to the idea of over of but the potential over harvest that the bears were shrinking and they felt their price shrinking due to selective harvest of large animals. So here's where like that information, that metric ability influenced management policy, but people also does use it and talk about it in a very fluid way being like a one hundred and forty and but when you say that you're, saying

a handful of measurements. You take, you measure, eats you measure the main beam analyses are shit and slices and sulphur base the curing talk about tiny anymore. They talk about you, He too is in all this shit, because when you fill out the form, there's measurements like what The measures that bulgaria, nor by heart she one two three four. your maintains, and yet your main being langsyne you're inside spread So so you do be like machine to his right. he too was this not just because when you fill out the form that line of the form is for the g two, it was funny when we were looking at our caribou. I was like trying to further to the point I didn't know. Can I call this? Is this like the g? Sixteen hundreds yeah, I haven't looked at high scores, I dunno, but that's what marks getting out with the with the score thing, but a bit like. I think that come on in the national sense, like big, huge giant, wait till box are regarded as big huge box until they get like have one hundred and eighty and the valor does like the a good meal. There's like fucking

Here are two hundred inch bach without value killed four hundred inch bull with white tells us what like one, seventy cause, that's boone, that's a boner, wouldn't crack a bucket and make the boone and crockett record book record books. I mean, but again it's all the What, if like a guy in new Hampshire, if he sees one hundred and fifteen or one hundred and twenty five inch bucks, he should be stoked. That's an amazing bug in that area, where in Michigan, if you've got one. If so, if you one hundred and twenty five inch buck, is a pope and young buck and gross or net, but I have one hundred and twenty five inch belkin michigan's, like a pretty nice dear one hundred and fifty inches giant deer in michigan and in wisconsin, I'm sure hundred and fifty inch bar where you're at is like a nice buck. I would guess, but oh I dunno a one hundred and fifty inch buck get shot here and there's everybody will shoot. That but I'm guessing like if that box is more common right. You pull up with that in the back of a pickup truck and people are gonna buck of you. If you pull for that bucket the bug pawn, opening their gun season, there's two hundred people swarmed around it taking pictures and looking at it yeah

degree because your career to what degree do you feel like have to go, shoot big box and ordered like maintain your career. Would your career exist if you never shouted big, but so, Leon? I thought so. He had this pressure like the first few years when I was trying to build this this website in his brain areas, I thought the guy got, gotta, kill big bucks and stressed about every year and stuff rosie won't bill. You won't be a businessman are going to be a whitetail guy. I think I think, and now I don't worry about that, nearly as much because I have not staked my reputation or what I'm doing on in since trying to claim, like I'm the best deer hunter out there. I'm an expert on that stuff, the water, how I communicate in in in what I do the service I think I provided I may just racist, laura idle? do, I want consumers. Much has passed by want talked is made from people's possible, so I'm I'm trying to in every different input at pasco, again, I try shareware I learn and that I share my appearances, lots of failures, lots of mistakes, occasional successes

and I share that real experience with my listeners, readers, etc, and I think that's much more reliable. Then the guy that kills a hundred eighty, his book every single year doing one specific way so now I don't know, sir, where of course like I need have credibility and they can t you like to see If the things I'm learning and trying and doing are you know paying off and that you know okay, he tried to actually talk about x resulted in Y, you know that canada is getting more relevant to a larger group. The minute you listening they gets where your credibility is talking with you about white tales, I really enjoyed the conversations and it's the herb experiences and The way you're looking arouse the credibility is really there, and I think you know- and the other thing I ve Done- is that I'm not embarrassed to share alike

nothing, and so I should have shared all sorts of failures and mistakes are made in that's pretty rare within the wait till world too, and so I want Someone at one point: civic I'd, love your stuff. He I think because of course, the market failure, but you ve done a great job of share in all the mistakes we made of. But you know we all make mistakes, we all feel sometimes just most below and talk about it and I'm I'm ok, putting it out there and hopefully getting better as we go along. If people have the idea that other people don't want to hear about the failures, I probably get more feedback when I like we want something: bad happens or a screw something up like you more emails, and suggest and stuff. I that happened to me too, or at the same issue but I was the only one or I didn't. I never really talked about how to deal with it. You know, and so we've walked work through all sorts, different challenges that we all experience, but very rare really do you get to follow along with with someone else on their experience and you could do breathing right. Specially way tells you can do

everything right and for whatever reason that deer turns and goes away, and all of that and it's like you, sit there and go. What did I do wrong? They are wild and I think people. Who are trying to stay. I some notoriety or establish some claim in hunting in order to feed a career like me, The entire career in hunting, You hear so many examples. They there's a couple every year that come up of where they wind up cross and some pretty serious legal and ethical lines here in order to achieve it pressure, how much do you know the story about the guy we're talking about their day from Michigan, the guy from Michigan or impala here? How well do you know couldn't give you the details. I mean, as you like, everybody was scattered, though this Super level store was back in the nineties. This guy killed this gigantic buck up in northern michigan. It was just incredibly why

It's thirty inches wide or twice in the place where don't get back in place. Yet in the place where you just would not see a buck like that, and it was at the time. I don't remember if it was the spock killed in the state at the time were they believed it was, but I got a lotta notoriety. I was telling you: as I remember our hold. It was eight or ten or something that the time, but I even at that age, saw this picture in the newspaper and cut out the pay. Is this bug in the newspaper put it up on my little board? Everybody, though I remember my dad, was a scorer, my dad's scored for us, pope and young he's, he's like a certified score for pope and young boone and crockett m. U c c all that shit is a box flooded into our house yet to be scored an hour. Amber like just the buzz you? It was bewailed power back where it helps call in its press. Looking dear, I mean even still today when you see the pictures wool, but eventually came out that

it was actually not a free, ranging deer. This is possibly have been raised in a pan or different. You know questionable activities had been involved with the with the killing of that deer, so it wasn't. Legit it was proved it wasn't able to enter an official record book, seems kind of ostracized because of that you know for good reason and some people still today The EU is actually really good legit hunter. He killed many bucks and legitimate fashion, but for whatever reason, Whether be ego or of a four notoriety or something to your point. He crossed the line soon, if your and it's like there are We get every saturday wicked generate a list. long as you're our man a dozens of cases where that happened. Soya they would is that. Do you understand the pressure? They have you ever been like man, oh wired, the hunt would get a wood get a shot in the arm. If, if I

just me into it. I've meandered, because this night me, like that's, not my thing but Zella, philip pressure will get. I should be killing like mature box. You need this. Even if some kind credibility but I've never been like the type. This trend all I have to kill one hundred and eighty and two hundred and ninety in bulk or something I'm not trying to be in the cup magazine or something like that. I just want to do something. I love share, what I'm learning and help people, hopefully sovereignty in a position where I thought like that was going to scar, I'm not doing t v or anything, but I know lots and lots of people that are- and I think it comes down to your like the- why behind it so I think some people the why behind wanting a tv show or wanting whatever it is because they want fame fortune and attention all that kind of stuff and my wife has has been different, and so I just haven't worried about that.

What do you say? Do you ever give advice people who wish they had a job and the like in hunting like hunting or fishing or whatever, like you, got to have people come and ask your hundreds and hundreds yeah lots. What do you tell people? Is there an answer? Yeah I mean yeah a couple of things and you, you know I can speak to like content related careers because that's idyllic, the media types of so I would say number one: we figure out what your what whatever medium or type a thing is that you can do like. If you have a natural skill set or experience in it or a passion for it, so are you going to write? Are you going to film? Are you going to photograph Are you going to whatever might be so? What's like? Ok want to figure that out in their number two just do it would create stuff like get out there.

Have experiences and pulled out there. So for me, when I started a blog or website I I had no reason, the people should have been really what I say No one knew who this mark kenyan guy was, and but I just created. So I was just constantly writing constantly producing content, and so so advice is number one pick which are past about what you do number to do it created, and by doing it you get better like you, you can find it craft. The more you do, but if you sit around than you, are someday. I'm gonna be a photographer, but I want to wait till I've got the seven thousand. Our camera gonna wait until this thing, and I think now you go get out there with what you have do it fine tune your craft and then shirt. do not enough and it contained a girl you to get better and by sharing that I mean like whether it be through social media or networking in person used elvis relationships, connections if you do all those things and if you get better at all those things opportunities come about. So for me,

my website I just start writing every like why recitals Why did you wired hunt? I started the website and then every single day without fail. I was working on every single day. I got every day of the week I had a new article weakens I'd stay up here. late at night working on it, I work before the day job at work out after the day job- and I just was like I'm going to keep doing it. and then I assure on forums. I connect with everybody, a positive on facebook and twitter and eventually instrument no any one of these single one things like was the reason why I was able to do it I'm doing now, but The relentless chipping away- I was different things I think led to so those are the three things that I Many of us people very high level, its eyes, some secret them sharing, but that's that's has worked for me, and then one other piece of ass? I guess what comes the content, his fine gig, you can't be it a generalist when you starting out

is my thought. So if you want to be- or if you start a podcast or website these days, if you or a general hunting podcast, it's hard to stand out, because you can't necessarily create content. That's perfect for the audience, if you're just doing a little bit of this load with that you will I would, by the way I thought about things early hours. I want to be very niche because of us very much I could say: ok, this is my audits. the very tight slice of peace. What are my audience? I was superseded his passionate, relatively young people and if I know who that audiences are very clear and who their audiences it makes some my work as accounting. a very easy because I know exactly what's: gonna resonate with an audience so that, because of that, I'm putting out suffers and that's exactly what I've always wanted to see, because I'm creating content for like one guy or girl versus trying to create everything for everybody. So once you can do that, then you have an ability to connect grow from

and so, since I've able barely grow from there now, I can expand and do different things and generalize a touch. But I think that that is a helpful process to go through early on. That's interesting man that that that part of the ocean, it's all pretty obvious, but that's interesting perspective on it. I dunno that I entirely agree with it, but but I like it fair enough First, a writing about them. I mean obviously was white tales, but You were saying I'm trying to connect specifically with a small group of people. What was the so you're what I started websites like twenty one and he loves you- know it that point just switching delay trying to target mature box and stuff. So I was wrong. about my own experiences that point I was writing about things I read. I was right about, I was tried, interviewed people like people were established new stuff? I was drunk at them on a phone and pick the reins of shares. In those experiences I was doing gear views. Does anything a media?

figures on early, I was doing something white airily every day. Almost so let the niche was white. Tell us is Nikki is a sorry limit. Let me clarify so yes, the niche was white tail in there the three sixty five days a year. Why togo and then again it was everything was with a love of an angle towards that younger generation. So the things it my generation was interested in and then also the way of communicating those things. So I was communicating with youtube and facebook and twitter and whatever it might be at the time and then also different technologies and stuff. We talked a lot about so apps that help out with deer hunting or your trip cameras or different things, relate to them in a region that wired to hunt idea in the various Yet it was like the intersection of tat algae with hunting and all that it is, can change from there. But early on those are the things I was tackling.

So, what's the force the future being awaits to the future of being, let me ask is what are the like? We look at deer hunting, wait till deer hunting. What's like was the what it? What do you want to look into a crystal ball? What you see forged average, the early years where I would have liked to some new number in the future demands. What kind be recognisable details like seismic changes whenever you both of em I can't I just really hard for me to picture the future right now with the prospects of stuff like cwd, and so I think the last like decade or so, we've kind of been like the glory days of of whitetail hunting and a lot of places, and you know, herds have grown tremendously since the sixties and seventies. Most places average age of bugs has been rising tremendously. Is more and more people are letting young box droller paying attention

things like her dynamics, are trying to improve habitat her. You don't think about conservation and income. What they're doing those things have been happening for for a while, so were generally good place like reaping the benefits the activities generally reaping the benefits of that those activities. I think all those things most people would recognise as a positive trend. I think, but to your point there are concerning. As I see dvd, which is wireless deals that such a long term issue later impacts in the short term for most people right now, it's beyond what they're, looking it was easy already were we're top up chronic wasting chronic? wasting disease, and we did very exhaustive conversation with a cwd expert a few podcasts ago. So you can go find that if you want to catch up on what we're talking about on re capital now, but yes like a disease wildlife diseases yeah, so those the issue with that, and why? I think a lot of people struggle with like looking at head on and why and do something by is because it doesn't necessarily have like.

population level, impacts right now. You can see and feel versus under my phd which is a disease virus. Excuse me that, in one year you can lose sixty percent. Your dear heard that some like wholly crap our it that you can feel that, unlike reprehensible but see that we do you mind src and feel that, but as I understand it over the course of decades, population level impact do start showing up so unwise coming in colorado, word see nobody has been around for a long time. They are saying that a significant proportion of bucks or dear and heard our die every year from sea to be so. I think its quota, possible that fifty years from now, we will be seeing that in a lot of states. What I do when I ask that question that I, like your perspective on it, but when I asked that question when I look at it What I'm saying is the way the relationship people have with dear that does the more social costs

beer relationship. The people have with dear change if it wines up we begin to look at dear as disease factors that would be a scary situation. And if it were to happen like a thing that I really the thing that I most afraid of on that most afraid of of like like a disease yea deals, he's gonna come carry away sixty or seventy percent. You dear, I mean that was all the time you recover from it? Like? Is it's a supreme like natural part of our system. That happens. It's like you get these like too, any dear disease, comes a wise man. They recover you get back up and run. in a few years things go on with ways and ways and disease a thing. I work Burma has thankfully hasn't happened yet would be you'd have some cases where there is irrefutable proof that a person yet it would that make the jump. That person would contract a fatal disease from cancer.

mean dear me, like just how that would shift public perceptions of the value of deer and if there is a thing that you can learn. If you look at global level like global politics, global wildlife issues, wildlife thrives, Places where it has a cultural value, if it does not have cultural value, it does not thrive the reason we have wildlife in a man. erika the abundance, we do ask us with a fixed tremendous amount of cultural value is not here by mistake and as if the becomes that we look at dear with suspicion. I think I think it can really have like a really alter things and and like you being it's ok, anita pollack, pursuing whiter guys that's your audience that smart, because ninety percent of big game hunters hunt whitetail

So we're tumble a major thing here: yell huge, so Something that worries me a little bit for sure I one a great agree, hope that in the interim in the next twenty or thirty, forty years whatever might be hot or whatever let us hope we find some types of solutions, because, as a a grim situation to imagine if you're worried about you, can't you dear anymore because not only does that impact asses hunters, but then also if, if, if you want to continue hurrying So, let's say, ok see dvd is prevalent and we I'll decide that there's possibilities of a transfer, inhuman, so people are going to eat dear anymore, but hunters can too. hunting them from the outset, looking in now now one of the most understand born relate above all elements of of why people hunt be looked at from the outset. Also, that's gone so now non hunters, look at what we're doing us and so you're, just gonna kill, is dear to toss it out that way.

waste my time with it same reason, don't waste my time, shooting shit loads of carpet stuff. Now it's like it just would cease to be of any other stuff. But yes, I think yeah, I think, you'd see it would be a would be Bertha. An issue of what we will do is like a credibility issue to the outside world now became conversation that we had with someone that I know in our area, their biggest. not the one and only concerned with their biggest interestin hunt. Here is the antlers Same concern about c that I didn't really that's really upsetting because of that with some of its public perception, but the legislative arsenal thing, I'm really what you mean but they don't realize is when they're looking at one, say that all they care about his antlers. What they're looking at is there not risk

get about where that value came from, they didn't create their value. They inherited their value when they look at Andrews is because those antlers represent something and stand for something right, dude. If you had a dude from mars, come down in land on earth he wouldn't see about come on black solve a some. The bits are awesome. He just wouldn't is like the valley because they were brought up in a social contacts that we have a value on that and the bigness like the bigness of em is alluring view, because it's a rarity like like planes, the equestrian planes, aboriginal bison hunters like the blackfeet, the crow. They really value the white. follow. It was an anomaly right because you had a look at ten thousand define one had an extreme value so when people say like I, just like sailors dude, it's like yeah. Ok, you do because of how

where you were brought up, how you were brought up, what the value system of it came in, because it was a rare because it was an achievement to have one get to be old anyways if you start to chip away at. If you start the chip I, like the legacy of deer, the broader cultural meanings of dear. You will see a diminishment in that interest. Like that interest is, is, does it trump this foundation there that they may not be articulate, they might not know the history of, but, as they didn't come out of a back thinking big antlers, a cool at it's world and it's a word thing. Little kids don't have it, they pick it up. So I think If you know there are ways in which the even that value overtime would just cease to be that. Big deal, this may be my most pessimistic now. The other way to look at. That would be that, like how shit jelly

continues along right. So. yeah. If I really had let go and put money on, I would say in fifty years worse we're going be excited about deer hunting, we're struggle being signed about big box, but but what these sort of put on this like theoretical. What could possibly happen it? Why being a little more entertaining to try to think about the dark side of things. Just as the reality that my Maternal green, father liked to hunt dear my paternal grandfather liked to hunt dear my father, like the hunt dear, I like to hunt. You're my kids already excited about hunting. Dear, I feel there is like a pig. good momentum, they're dead dead, my kids, kids kids, will be offered about IRAN. So I don't mean to sound like big one as there are no, I think, as long as we as hunters do our part in making sure that, It's gonna be possible in future measures places to do it. and healthy while lived to pursue eiger,

Probably what's gonna happen, America will prompt We continue to be a really great country for a long time, but some shit. I got my eye out for yeah. That's true: it's a couple of things watch, so near yawning and the thing you want to add in wedge internet may I got a couple things that weren't, a talker asked mark about, or comment on. filled with the antlers inches certainly does deserve this lobe of a negative byproduct ray of that scoring system that it's alive some maybe like over competitive people to sort of make huh getting into a contest really don't like that- the all the other of the gulf, if occasion holds edward, the goal occasion of of hunting yeah, where it's like. It is now is this, like this personal experience journey like yours,

and get the day were one hundred use soda is life long thing that you're involved in you know- and you know I've mentioned this before I have friends who have It scoring animals because a real how much it affected the way they thought about like they would harm. This is animal. It was a great tribute. Everything was awesome about it and they got home, put the tape on it and it changed it somehow and that's like that's it. It's a bad boy, products like it started with the I think, such good intentions. You know- and I just want to be clear- I swear again to like the martian or the outsider. Looking in when we talk if you are marching yeah, when we talk about like seeing the one hundred and forty engineer, yes we're using that as an another efficient way to talk about what we know is a great big bug, but it's do it

again because it is that rarity, an anomaly. It's I'm going to see a new, no final, her for waterfall somewhere or seeing like the triple rainbow bearded lady Dorothea, I get interesting as are all I one. So they grew the austere. This is like it's not a contest and out we needed this mean mine ourselves on that and always remember There's more to that. But my question to you mark was: you talked a lot about picking, times the heart, not hunting certain properties. Alot right, we talked about this. The other day an emotion I think in the last hours. Well right, like you, dislike real selective, how about when you're going to go hunters buck, and my only be three or four days in a season right. So does that limit your hunting to the point where, because I'm kind of like listening, I'm like man, I want to get the hot more or do you have other properties were used,

get in your like I'm, not lacking hunting time, because I'm sitting there waiting for the time to strike so the way I do our kind of audio books on film, awful balsam globally. the pay to see beard. Ladies show, I was making a joke about how people used to pay money in the old barnum and bailey days, like you'd pay money to go, see a bearded lady. Oh, I didn't know that After I had heard of that, I have not seen the show it was like a part of the circus, so is anyways to your question because I thought that could potentially feel a little out of left field, but it was, I was making an old circus joke it's still lay of the land are quite right. The obvious question. So, yes the latter. So I have I try to have as many different places. I can harness possible second spread that hunting pressure across a number of different areas, so in this case with this book,

I know there are certain times of the year, based on my analysis over the years that he's more vulnerable, so I'll be looking for certain factors such as temperature and wind direction, cetera et cetera. If those things look right, the first couple of days, the season, that's where my best opportunities for a shot him song on the first day or two- the season, if the conditions are right after that, I'm going to stay out because he just does not move in daylight on a property. I can hunt from like the from the first week of october through around, like the twenty third twenty. Fourth, for whatever reason he is a little more careful during that time from in lots of times what people have found and what I've seen too is a deer, have relatively consistent annual patterns so where you can see that a buck is going to be using a certain area or he becomes more daylight active in a certain area year after year around the same journal time for him. So this book around the twenty fourth

fifth, twenty. Sixth, he all lights, which for him in particular switches, so I had a shot at him on the twenty fourth in two thousand and fifteen, and I had shot him on the twenty fifth and two thousand and sixteen in the exact same place, and I start paying more trail, cam pictures of him the exact same place at that same time for himself, for that, like two and a half week period, I'll have I'll be hunting. Some public land I'll be hunting in ohio, I'll, be hunting my family's little property up in northern michigan, so yeah, I think in a perfect world, you'd like to have permission or public access to keep hunting a lot, but just any one particular place is going to have a smaller number of hunts and it's just it's picking the right times, and then you know try to have a concise cause, surgical strike when you go on there, but yeah you're, getting enough hunting day hunting days in to keep yourself happy cause. I know you're going to apply a certain amount of pressure, so you need places to operate. Apply that pressure you just in that case, you have to be willing to knock on a lot of doors or figure out how

public land or leave the funds due to access lend some other way do their bit. We get the quest like I want to hunt more. I wouldn't want to hunt this way and you will need to hunt that way. All I mean that's just if you are honey in a situation like, I am words, have we pressured and if your targeting mature bucks, those types of tactics are most often the best way go about it, but if you're just trend shoot any deer to fill a freezer, go ahead and hunt your heart out and cause you can. You can shoot, does and and nearly box doing that catholic and I want him, I conclude or cause good place. The regiment one when you Tom Atto light switches netbook, starts, come out on october, twenty third, its that's kind of literal for there has she has lost through, like the photo period or period length of day. You have right yeah me too, presented as I'm telling you something you don't know, but it is interesting if people are just. Getting to think about. Animals are detailed waves. Some

of animal activities really triggered by? If you see consistency like the calendar day. Consistency with animals was what you're seeing as effects of chain. in daylight go which triggers many things. J J, like photo periods, create windows of time and then with those windows of time. There are many other factors that contribute, so that's it nice to keep your eye on when you started really, when you really like a detailed about learning about wildlife, but a thing, I touched on a minute ago, but it struck me the other day as we haven't having like age old argument were somewhat. Like our man, like the best hand hunters, when you can I was presenting that are somewhat where's, our people, who don't who think that move, phase effects dear movements and they won't hunt if the moons not right- and we were discussing the A counter argument would be like if we can be out in the woods beyond the woods. Margo,

well, no, not really and Reiterate again, why? Why maybe not when you can be out the words beyond the word there. So again it if you're trying to kill an old buck. These books are very savvy too. human incursion. So every time you go no property, you increase the odds of that buck worry about it present see your educating that buck and or the larger dear heard, every time you step for their whether it step tinker with the tree stand trail camera or to hunt everytime you go in there. You are advocating, yeah, so you're leaving, sadly creating visual disturbance, etc, etc. So your odds for success in the future decrease some percentage points. Every time you go in there, so my thought processes, if I'm trying to kill a mature buck, I want the odds of reward, to be as high as possible, because I know that there is gonna be some level of risk every time. So I want to find the lowest risk and the highest reward days strike on those days

minimize the number of intrusion so that I dont educate more dear because you can get that book or if you educate the dough heard- and you know it says, which were mature, dough or handful machado starts picking up on the fact that I'm rolling into this little one of the property every couple days, then she doesn't come on anymore, or when she comes in. She looks right at the tree stand and if that happens, and the buck happen like I'm, after half ton, bees happens to be one hundred yards behind. Him sees her spook or maybe that buck what a followed her in towards a tree stand on of our first, but because now those doze no not moving their during daylight. Now he won't or there always need to think about the impact of hunting pressure, human intrusion- and here I mean it's just it's an odd thing- consulting the scale, every single one I go into. I just have these two hands. I locate what are the things in favor of reward? So what do I have gone from him? Maybe it's the time of year, maybe it's! The conditions

it's an up? Maybe I saw him in daylight recently moving. Maybe I know that a certain food source can be particularly palatable starting now, those are things will tell me how high or low that chance reward will be, and then I'll look at the chances of risk. So what things could lead to me being? You know spotted or what could lead to me blow my cover, so maybe it's wind, maybe it's how many times I've been in there. Maybe it's I of year. Maybe it's you know how the neighbours are or hunting or doing something that saw lessons factor into every single hunt. For me, at least you don't you talk about Whitetail guys will invent moves. That kind of reminiscent of professional wrestling moves like you're talking about like the bumper dump pump and dump. I would, if I was you, I would think of a move called the canyon, so what's in it would be the You sneak on all the neighbouring property after dark. Just make life hell for those dear. Thinking that they will naturally com

gay and the buyer, you have permission worry just talking about their whole deal crossing. The line can exert everyday you're just going to court beating embedding just like raising wholly how now here's this is that made me. That is the amount of job, because man that's what mark does, and it is called the cap. We now want to ITALY, but one I do is I I call it my gun season, sanctuary strategy, so I think about lik. If there's a pro pretty that I've soul access do so again this. If we keep referring to ninety acres, this, like the one place I have that nobody alfonse. So I have the opportunity Is there that otherwise, you have other guys we're coming out of one, so my thought process is that

in the fifteenth, as you know, in Michigan, the orange army comes out. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of deer hunters are in the woods it's a dramatic increase in hunting pressure. Most of the deer in michigan killed during the first day of gun season and then over the course of the last couple of weeks, I choose not to hunt this property at all during gun season, because my thoughts are that I create a sanctuary, evacuations vacuums and dear from all the surrounding proper during that time. Here so does, dozens of hunters are all round there, all hunting with guns these dear, are looking for somewhere, there's, not hunters. That's who happens to be this property all these dear fluttering there. This achieve two things for me: number one it pulls in dear in the short term. So if there is much about that, I'm after it's more like it I'll survive through guns season. Then I can continue target him lay season or under the future, and then in the long term a lot of year and a half old bucks come pouring or two and a half year old.

bucks I'd like to see you make it to an older age class, I'd like to see a more balanced age structure, so I think I can have a disproportionate impact dear heard, a general area, even though I'm only honey little piece of it. I can have a disproportionate impact because I create a safe place, and the most dangerous time more dear can make it through, and I can't quantify the impact that said but anecdotally. I do believe it has made a positive that I've seen Your box, that I dont think would have made it a thousand them not going around all the time the outcome at the crowd sourced canyon, do you rats or you monitor their property than during the gun season, so that the guy next or the guy on other side, because small property like that do just walks on the idea of forty, that's all you're talkin something important I rely on discards. You wait till the packers replaying go hunt the neighbors lay eggs. You know damn sure he's out of the woods yet so so yeah me there's always that risk right, but I've tried to use them.

Was positive relationships of the neighbors, so I'm trusting number two. I do have trail cameras all over the place that are monitoring, edges and stuff, and I think I'm a dried make that known, there's posted times all round. The explicitly say that there are you know trail cameras, moderate property really well. So, if you'd, if you were to come on there, you good risk that you'll get spotted and prosecuted. So I tried america will and I'll even dry land, I try to. I try to be nearby is often- and I go through- that you gotta make your presence known throttle guy in the bar every once in a while it, rarely beats up a guy announced to everyone that he has a picture him out as I don't. I don't just leave that, because

today, we walked into a restaurant and dogs afraid to sit down with his back towards the root cause. These are the words of my co up a clock. It has got gunfighters Doug guy, he concludes yes, but one would we would go on for a long time? So I guess I have that one skip but it is something I'd like to talk about in the future, and that is about how you gain access to pray. Police, yeah, ooh good. I got a lot of say a lot say about yeah yeah I got last year in what way, and I want to do your whole episode called permissions. We come, god for that. Absolutely I think. That's really. Are you not, of course, in my place, famous guy you get the commandant and hunt on the roof. That's our traditions. Traditions will do vision,

so. I hope I never do how much you guys sing either. That was something I learned on this trip recently yeah, especially, we all know the song so yeah. So that's something for another time. You know the. I guess the other thing that I would say is that the most interesting part in in enjoyable, part of all this for me He is I know why you too, as you get along so well, and in Jani too, with is that there is. The passion that you have for what it is that you do. Maybe it's almost as if you came to this in hand in both of you where are you making you living because first, you are passionate about thing in animals and and conservation and all of that and then the rest of it followed as opposed to I'm I'm

I'm going to be a tv guy or I'm going to be of a podcast guy or whatever, and so then go. What am I going to do it about yeah, and I just don't think that you can create that authenticity without that. Passion and sincerity, and I think that's really. I think s really important in and of the thing it at ties it altogether, I learn ere. I learnt tenth grade from my teacher Robert Heaton, who said what many writing teachers say an, I should say is I'm right what you know. That's cool I mean it's it's it's cause about shakespeare- that visitors Excuse me, medicine, home yard. Did my concluding you Is that good do not give out like that new things, and I do your suggestion for the way ass, bigger one,

permanent permissions mark. Glaciers gets wedding ring off fiddle. they slowly he losses you. He was wearing your wife. Not physiology, relate to bed What is going on you're, lying on the floor, you like a rings fiddler honouring, fiddler victim, I've, I've lost in my car seat cushion and looking down the cracks and stuff many times I would be, but my fingers of changed they become. we're powerful to wear. Give my love outside story, though you know it's yours, four concluded when I was a kid we're butcher the snapping turtle. My old man in the process losses wedding ring there was devastated. He was upset and search the search and eventually he got to where he remembered that he had reinstall. The turtle me in this big tub and then put

hold the turtle meat out and then later took the tub and adopted in the garden dislike water, and we know and was looking round the garden and found the wedding ring wow where he dumped the after, like running it his head. What could possibly happen to that ring and eventually occurred to him and there it was in that timeframe. I don't remember. I was little we ve got a few and got piles camp and the god did all single. Ah, oh, no a few you twice it happened that I could remove your data in the gut yeah we'd go back and eat know cause it gets, their blood can be working on. If you dont have those ever powerful fingers, it contained a girl I my father was delivering baby pigs that found founded Now, then, we found a, but that's what honest bacon years later, what I was out: weird floatin vision and and I saw

A bunch of ravens were digging around in the trees off the off the river We started going over there and it's just bear trails like new bear trails, Lena's area and someone had butchered a moose. it's an area the size of this hotel room. It's just me. Added down grass the owner just in there really have the feeling that the card is totally gone in land in the middle of this rule, size piece of Madame ground. Is a leather man that looks licked clean does, Listening in the sun land earn you tell it Some delay lost the butcher moose and eventually all the shit that was obscuring it from his view, has been mopped up and then cleaned the poorest thing look like off the factory floor laying- and I still have that thing while I still have that was over a decade ago. I keep kind of a special place now is not in my medicine box, but it's in a place where some day make its way has been upgraded to the medicine box puts close, marked you're conclude

the the after a few delays there, I'm sorry thats, okay, ah well, I guess first, I just want to thank you so much for having me here for this trip and this experience and being on here on the podcast. It's been an belief well experience. I think me and Doug have just said over and over and over again to each other, just look at each other and we wow just amazing you're, welcome, thank you, and- and I guess I was just as I was trying to think here about things. We've talked about the things we haven't yet talked about and something that is worth noting. Maybe it's I think, maybe more so it's a kind of white tail guy thing is that I'm just rising here by thing. Very often, we wait till guys get something that I referred to as conservation tunnel vision where we start looking at just are back forty or our little place are our property.

We're very focused on just what's happening there. I just want to make sure I mean these are good. Things may be doing. to tat work or killing doze, because this, help. You heard whatever might be you care about that little slice and that's important and good but what I worry sometimes within my little community is sometimes we fail. Pay attention or care about the bigger picture things as much like public landed. He was clean air, clean water, whatever might be so one of things I was try remind my white till brotherhood- is that all is bigger picture issues. They they impact. All of us to do so so try to listen here about always definition, educate yourself, care about your back forty, but also look at these bigger picture things that impact your hunting its or the ability for us to have a virus. While I found it,

patients across the country, yeah like it or not. Your back. Forty is part of the earth. Yeah yeah exactly so. I think you know. That's all I that's all I'd add to that we are part of a very large connected world and lets take her. Have. You ever heard the ideas of theoretical concept that. Kate, like, like think of your own by your an organism right and at being an organism. You have your made up of many organs that have all these functions. We have circulatory system right. You like taking in liquids, pulling the things expelling things and you this part. and then you also have more sells it aren't you, then that are you when you think of all the micro organisms that comprise your gotten the, yvonne you as parasites or symbiotic relationships with yourselves with yourself. this theoretical concept that you would think of the earth

as an organism and effort- she's gotta trippy, unlike a alone out there, but once you start thinking about the issues mentioned the earth as an organism, and it has circulatory system and it breathes and it has blood. and it has micro organisms within it. It's, as they suddenly lay lay in a bad night, as foreigners are imagining that their that you are one of those microbes the same that you millions and millions of microbes in you. You are one of those microbes that, as part of this order, in Islam, the earth. and your concept of your world? If you imagine, if those microbes in your god had consciousness there, conscious This would lead them to think that they are the thing they are there. thing that matters, and this by

that gives them life and that they exist in is just as broader other that they don't really get, because they are the point of existence and x, ban that outward and outward and outward, and it becomes an interesting mental exercise, and I think if we all look if things a little bit more. That way it could lead to some positive things, or I mean thanks tuning in.