The gastonia you shirtless severely mentioned in my case underwear of the meat eater podcast. He can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther stay longer the fender or coyotes really kill and eaten all the dear is. It is bad Everyone thinks knowest, not as bizarre basin Why does everyone take it so bad? Is it more fun to think about I ought to kill him the year, then other shit, killing deer yeah. I dunno what it is, but there's something about coyotes and something about wolves that really gets under hunter's skin that you can. You can show them. Research shows like in wisconsin and northern wisconsin about five years ago,

They wrapped this research and number one killer fawns. Yet one finds a busy hit the ground. the first three weeks for life are picked off. Can I guess by god blackberries exactly exactly it's? we're from ten to twenty five percent of those funds being picked up, a blackberries and a few guys will complain about it, but for the most part, the oil the fault to the coyote, and you look at the numbers on this particular study And- and that's probably a pretty representative study because they have all the major predators in this area is six per cent of the kills were definitely tied to coyotes. Six per cent black bears all they had at least ten percent, but more likely close to twenty five percent, because as soon as you got it by a month out of the fighting season, the cause of part of that twenty five percent as these unknown, they weren't quite sure what got it because everything's of basic cleaned up

yeah gone and but as soon as the garda that are that first month, this is typically when the black bears are hitting them, that just dropped right off those unidentified dropped right, because they can get them up until they're able to get up yeah yeah cause that that black bears they probably are going to run very far to trieste on a phone and once that phone gets motoring nicknamed let it go now, have you ever killed a coyote class? I've like? I guess I guess you know, because you can't coyotes it could be. I found a new found in general, I found that people who have killed them com kyle's, but minor, because I think that one is a sound, so cute employable have not tend to calm them. Coyotes arthur under cocoa. I am more august, a more formal but-

I might but a historian was telling me that I might be right about that, but killing him. No, no, no, no, he didn't he didn't and he was interests net theory it all, but he If he didn't, he didn't think that was right, just a history of calling them coyotes and coyotes okay, yeah yeah. While to answer your question, a shot over the born, bow, shut off the shotgun and think get either of both get away from me. Swooning law space We know why. Why are you shoot him? A good question, but I say man, man dislikes why in both cases as well as as far as odd things, I can't really explain. I would never do that to a fox, a coyote I let their ago and now that pulled the trigger on the shotgun and my daughter was with me when I shot the one with the shotgun. Were turkey hunting and

As for why to do that, couldn't give her a good answer for control. Not I have. I have no illusion about that. Yeah see, I don't I don't generally like. I have in the last one I shot at we ate but I don't shoot at him the first I ever came to meet doctor in here and we're in. Ryan, with dirt. Myth calls casanova, scars and actually cut miles, south casanova, guns and first american, to visit. I got scolded by doug cousin kind computer through our then we're gonna mooch DR answered kyle's, peeled and there was a little shocked that take a poker. I do remember that an eye and ear reason for not doing it was not some others is trying to make a living to or something that cannot be overcome. That's right! Right!

I don't wanna, go make another long ago by fortune and have the middle, but now I dont but but but I have, I don't touch him anymore. I'm calling the same. If I m kind of interesting- and I know that there are plenty of guys that are hunting home and then I have listened to you talking with the employees in the I looked into that a little bit more myself and it sounds like. New shoot. Em, you shoot one, Being replaced by two years that's not. Why don't my thing about? Is that, as though the event I wondered if I had need or a kyle hide right like if good. If I had some my wife, wanted something arousing to make something for myself. I would definitely winner get a nice one for to use the pelt. If I needed to make have something made,

As you know, you walk over there when I tell you they're not like a negative get him prairie, so Well. According to Google areas gum, may. I say I don't I'll. Take you like really turn in the tide. On you like doing in the break concerted way like in a very systematic, concerted way off. If you like, turning the tide on production you'll, not by Randomly now and then you'll never make a dent them with a rifle guiding as they like. Just to me, you're, going to run into him right. You can go out and call them go after him aggressively, as you want he's yours actively. Predator act from your I'll galler do like Doug has a scrap pile up here in the woods red dumps, bones stuff you could prior put those all the place and poland to be counted. It comes in and this

last, I gotta make it make a debt. The guys are really serious about toyota control and in four dear management reasons they pretty much our trappers near under their get not their next spring. Eternit can get em specially but spring. Now it is really a good time to get em. I guess and they'll tell those trap to shit counties. and then the guy says as soon as you lay off and come back in a couple months, it's like you never did it's like you're, never trapped new, the moon in their net days. They replace themselves a sister. A guy. A nord named craig harper is a professor dot tennessee. He he always refers to as weed control trying to pull weeds. You can go into the garden, pull weeds, pull weeds, get that garden cleaned out, and if you leave it alone for a week, right back in building up again and and as prevention way, qualities are. We know as someone here's, why only gets to get the about. This were done time also our new guy, who is Tom. Why.

You know I m wearing the midwife some away tales right now about with with him or somewhere else in the west. Why have you a pistol? it's when they know the lions kill more out. Calves, then wolves in an area. They were where they were doing. Is it because lions have always been killing alcoves out here, and we ve always had a sense that for every huh the calves, right riddle lose thirty two lines. and then just been something. This has been woven into the cultural fabric. Right when you're on the woods you, the sense of seven out of ten cows right is pack a calf, and we cannot know that. That's like the rate and our harvest. Statistics are built around right. We get use that, but then have some new additive thing, which makes a notice

will change what you see in your lifetime and your father's lifetime and its additive in you focus on that. So you not focus the three out of ten, let's say the three out of ten the lions are killing europe can fix. It. Down the one out of ten or two out of ten. The new things kill him because that's his new thing you need to deal with, and so a lot of blame falls to it and because Coyotes, like in my own lifetime, have come on the scene, and so many states, like the fur If I ever laid eyes on my whole life, I didn't even know there were any around at the time and I caught in the fox trap. Now it's like the fox are gone that or it's just coyotes. It's like a everyday thing. If you like, if you hunt around there you're it's an everyday thing to see coyotes,

and they were not around so then you have like some mortality ripe and all these other causes of mortality have always been around. But now it's like this new kid on the block thing and it does get a lot of attention yeah. I can buy that because I know in wisconsin again that's my base. People got mad at me when I point this out, but when I first started working in this industry at in the newspapers back in the eighties, there was no there really weren't any wolves to speak of, and northern wisconsin has a handful of them since, like mid eighties, and I have been covering the outdoors in wisconsin all that time, I've. Never me I've done other things along the way, but pretty much my beat wisconsin and always remember back in the eighties. You go to a public hearing. Corrupt public meeting up about deer and people up north a voice complain about not enough to europe north and back. Then they always blend the chippewa.

boy, indian tribes, you they always because they were on a treaty that allow them to remain regular right there. Where regard is unregulated, thicket hunt author off after preservation territories, they were blinder, they weren't you, Miss turner dear, they were doing this all sorts of accusations. Well then, the wolf builds up. the nineties, let us great hutton back then wrote. Nobody remembers, it. Kicking ass probably saw but I've written a couple of times and I'm not I'm not doing it just to be a jerk, but I'm pointing out to people that you know thirty years ago. You guys always blended chippewa for oh dear. Well, now that the wolves are up there. Now it's a bull's fault. You know so the letting the indians off the hook. Now it gets, they weren't just a big problem after all yeah, but then think my area where I right humbling wisconsin is a prime example. You go up there and the biggest problem with any animal basically is always or habitat.

And rye hotmail and must caution, is premature. Timber, there's not much in there for dear to really live off of, and so I go up there and I have my common joke around our camp is that habitat so poor around us. Even the wolves. Don't hunt deer there because there's just nothing dear here and and I'm not, I don't think I would but has it always been bad, but since ever got me and my friend my friends camp back in the fifties when his dad was there with his buddies and fortys little prick. A pretty good place in the forest. Hadn't been cut over that long for that you and then by the sixties and this guy, as a he keeps camp journals like he makes when you go to his camp. You gotta write in his journal before you leave and he keeps track of every deer killed that are basically. back into the sixties and his area pay much has been bad for a long time since the logging stare much since since I'd say the seventies for sure. But

the thing is to die. I looked I they are set up somewhat because his friends are mainly bird hunters. They dared hump terminology hunters until Gaza guy came along in the ninth late nineties, early two, thousands rewrite sit all day and and hunt dear the way you almost half to then a killer holiday, so I'm not sure how representative that is, but- and I I've talked to other guys in the area and that area we happen to hunt is always been a tough spot, just sloss bruce, but steer, don't really make much use of. So it it's, I don't think I saw that a. But then, as our parts, the north you go into aspens get roma tour. The grass aren't all. busy, as you know, cross ruffed, grouse and dear. If they're doing fine. They have good good young forest regeneration going. and if you don't have that that those young aspens come on up. Especially in areas like the yeah and now that's not enforced habitat. You have to have that young girls,

but then you get done this area too. You can make up for a lot of the shore coming so that natural habitat with crops and our stuff that can form through, but there is even search now, wisconsin, showing that there even getting winner loss and central scots and which is farm country, because that would have been silver browsed Why not left in love dinner near clean farming practices with nothing left in the fields, That's good hide out yet said no place to hide no place to eat, basically in it than that's another. Seem winter starvation in this eastern part of we're, scott salt, amene, central east, central scotsman, sumptuous, johnson and even parts of west central. You seeing some winter lost now, which has never something that they worried about you know twenty years ago, yup no dog. Do you practice clean farm? Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? I would say that I part of the solution for two reasons: one because of our forestry practices and we ve got you know various age classes of of woods, but then now our eglin insincere p.

And, though that it will see, p fields are planted to clover alfalfa orchard grass, and then some of the edges have additional clover and that sort of thing, so it's great cover for not just dear, but everything for they concern itself because you guys have in this area, but dear overpopulation problem by some definitions, slowly, the lead. The definition in your mind, is to put words in your mouth, finish, your mind would be that you eyes may be maybe like the disease transmission issues does enough. Theory have disease transmission issues without getting into all that too much what I you suggest, if you're so, about, reducing the dear population does make your farm you'll shitty. But then you lose. Let other wildlife well fair enough, but you could do clean fire me,

in an enlarged and levelling overgrown and then it'd, be so dear. You know it's interesting when I a fair number farmers round here, and I know those guys in other. It's it's clean farming. It really is in some more refer to it, as does not far but other people, that's a desert once I've been out there, but I'm always amazed at the amount of deer that I'll still see in foreign fields or it's corn stubble after stubble. There there's going to be some something that they'll eat, just like the cattle lead, the fodder from the the ears and that sort of thing, and ah apparently picking through the bean fields and stuff too, but it's a kind of at different times of the year and then what's exposed and the other work awful hard at it. You'll see them if we take the take that ride up around the end and look at those farm fields Walt Joe, the guy who farms that, after a hell of a good farmer, yet mean there'll, be times we'll, see seven

if you're up there you're working on those fields and all their ars grass strips and as corn and beans. So I I get that that the the clean farm thing, but the air clean farming thing, but they I see the I that it doesn't seem to be the case, and I wonder if it's just they've also attributed those practices to some of the declines in waterfowl that we saw back in the eighties and things that the people weren't leaving enough that there that that we waterfowl populations it had grown used to all the stubble leftovers yeah and they clean farming practices, was one of a handful of things that cause aloud. doc species collapse, I wonder one of the things I noticed around here and I have to add, have asked you about it. It's like eat my farmer reference all the time they they do a lot of spring,

grinding of the corn fodder and then baling rather than in the fall and I'm sure, it's probably a matter of time and no sort of things, but that is the kind of guy who leave it because he knows good for the wildlife life for the through the winner and then in the spring, doing it, but an ever dries out in great. And I know there are some rotation as to where they'll do that and where they won't and are they won't take the far off of each at that, feel, every year in europe, because they want to put some that organic matter back in, but I also think get up there now and at night, as we start talking about it and thinking about it that there's a lot of edge there, yeah there's, his browser, some other things so they're probably got working through they're getting a little bit of everything. You know what I mean yeah, I'm with you yeah now, pat and you kind of like a dying breed in that

You are a like: a like a regional one of your jobs like a regional outdoor columnist, what happened to mall, they all died, yeah they died in. That was it now. The biggest biggest change is on the way the newspapers went, downhill and reply started off. There is about three or four guys in wisconsin were full time outdoor writers to her at the Milwaukee journal, always at the milwaukee sentinel is winning. Embed theirs. When I was saw this one on the cross was probably seven of them. I think about it. I had one grown up. The muskegon chronicle had a. I can't remember his name. Bob I think had like a dude. Now he's like other worldly, that there be like the dude, whose job was right about hunting and fishing opportunities, local wildlife politics houses beat,

at a newspaper and sky like a desk at a newspaper, to cover. Like hey the purser in easy man like big, yellow bell, Last week's meeting at the dinner see office or my my and I still get grumpy, miles massey not seen outdoor at a newspaper. Not taking that beat seriously and just writing about fish round up son. I'm doing what I think is laid out in the heart not doing the hurly burly, because you know that but but but I My understanding is, is it in year over, sketch out. How long have you been doing like How long have you been a was they might use the right word when, like a regional out com. Is that what you call it? What you guys color emma call myself, not director and if you like, a syndicated YA writer in and say, was gone in wisconsin and focus the focus of my group

studying and column writing is wisconsin and I basically made my beat a state wide because much they can. I am centrally located right in the middle of wisconsin cycle. Keep an eye on you try to cover the whole star trek. I try to cover statewide issues and black, but I still find there's always those little local guys that do something that will be fast day and then I'll do stories and I'll I'll drive down a mass and sometimes for a story whatever it might be. But I I am that that's the only one for my job now, because you can't make a living as a, freelance guy newspapers, you can make you you could, but now you can't, I don't know if he ever could, because newspapers and their paid freelancers, that much and the end, but you know, as newspapers, declined and they started losing revenues to advertise revenues they started cutting staff like crazy sly got imagined the year. The first gotta go or you would be You'D- be won the very first

I know right now we're down to one full time or director paid by a newspaper musket in wisconsin that some Paul smith, the more The journal is he barely hanging on? I have no idea. I don't know what is: is he a good writer, yeah yeah, a pot palsy, get very good about outdoor writer, but you know the The problem is, he doesn't do like chip shop, penny Annie. When he does, he does pretty good stuff. I respect his work and where I, where I am where I've made my niche in outdoor writing, I think, is covering issues as a columnist where I I like to always think that I give a give an opinion, but I like to think in an informed opinion, is not just the coffee before I give an opinion, I've dilah didn't lie interviews de la reading and I was hit of a more sense to what the word research, because I think I've worked with guys who do scientific research and not done the research world is a really important word of them. They don't

You don't use this for bases, saying even on google and taken ill, a google search and son. I careful how I use that word research, but that's that, but by learning how to do reporting work. The way I did you know back in the eighties. I stirred discovering that most outdoor writers working in a national scene in the magazine front and elsewhere most those guys. like doing interviews, recall people up or sit through law one day of seminars and take note record interviews, transcribing, resolving world, oh yeah, nitty gritty work with those guys do a lot of is there deal or like some company will host right. Oh they're, roundup, like ten outdoor writers, inability, work, when the texas to test these new bullets. Here, while pics right one goes down there. And they all pseudo. While pig of these new bullets

What are their respective publications They all right in nicole and you can tell because in there they'd be like, as with I was hunting with, you know, bobs the the of marketing development, bob's bullets. that is a lot of outdoor writing, not I'm not that much anymore me. I really really really was back the nineties dark there. Are these the gun, writers and amyloid. Take guys that still do that a lot I was I never fit into that group mean. I know it is. I think of it as like gun writers, yeah, the writers. Do I still this price still enough work there, where they get those kind of those kind of things to come down plus they know what they're doing I like to hunt. I don't really. I've got a lot of different deer rifles, I kind of like deer rifles, but I don't really know the specs

am as far as you know, which one you're ballistic the ballistic coefficient stuff. I dunno anything anything notes, old bessie and it suits, dress, shirts were appointed and that cast stuff. I liked the look of a good wallet stock rifle and I liked the old lever action. Three await savage those kind of things, I find it interesting but to go on these. I think most companies figure up pretty quickly. What your strengths and weaknesses are. ned for have meal on those. Cannot outing single donor, bring that guy back he's just knock and he doesn't get this stuff. Yeah doing research the whole time, because just wasn't wasn't it wasn't my alley and in the magazine I used to edit dear enduring magazine, this is back and I got hired there and ninety one lothar, he's all someone so you're the editor in chief, therefore, down about eleven years back up? First, I solar set. So what like was your first outdoor writing job newspaper and address?

If a newspaper job, but I must study journalism, player average came out of the navy yeah, I was in the navy We were journalists in the nave na he met my dad, told me dollars and stripes. That's always one of those stories I enjoy talking about, but when I was nineteen years old I just sat as as an uncle in the navy and those days I decided to follow my father's footsteps. He was a firefighter in the navy. Nor nor in in madison, wisconsin or oscar, but dad encouraged me to go to your old man, hadn't been in the navy. Now he was he was in the coastguard and in the army, but here's into costco reserve and he knew enough about the military, the new. If you want to get firefighting training, you go into coastguard the navy because they teach when the ships are far you better get that fire. You want that shit out. You want to hurry so so they really run outside yeah. That's one of the things I really liked. The navy was how every ship was bases, one little city and it had to have all the other services, so it somewhat my dad when I went in the navy,

he was telling me he's looking old, recruiting stuff. He says instead of doing this firefighting training, because I was going to be out of his what was all done- a whole maintenance technician. They taught you firefighting, the white damage control welding, all these great skills, my dad looked at all the stuff. He says you should take this journalists, moon train because they have they trained you to be a journalist, the navy and navy had. Why would they do that? Because there are people there? They they have press releases on ships and little ship newspapers, and especially the bigger ships, have regular publications. I dunno if they do now, but via internet in our, why your base type stuff, but my butt nineteen I knew everything size that nominal go often do this damage control stay true to firefighter, but then by Tom I gather navy, which is five years realize dad was right, my strength was was writing and editing I was a lousy walter. I understood damage control, but I realized

god the skills I have I'm getting bored doing this stuff out and not being a locksmith for my final three years in the navy got trained as a locksmith. and so I breaking the say, saw a time for initial wardrobes on a navy ships, and so you, like so the ship, has a locksmith, oh words, a little city. You mean no I was I was. I was called a destroyer tender to big repair ship and select our job. Basically, we pulled in report. Then all these destroyers and cruisers ripple up alongside of us and you'd, pick a lot and not go over there and do all the locksmiths work people locked out of their rooms locked out in my biggest our bearers. I spent christmas day and seventy eight on a submarine all day, because a duty offshore lost the key ring to the submarine Eric every key that when iran that sub just now Dave replace knollys these keys, but to get back to your story

you, say: nineteen, seventy eight yeah, so it was like a war free period. I I had a perfectly sort of vietnam and what I was getting out every day and hath do grenada now I must miss their better than that just like in anything interesting was we backed raided. We helped me back with a bunch of people on lebanon in us, like might my five years and was seventy five to eighty and when I was getting out was during that ran the rent hostage crisis do and so the added a little bit of a worrying were. That would lead, but events that are calm down, but I never had the dwindling interesting, and so I I'm a I was proud of the fact I serve the navy cause. I really I enjoyed it, but am I make a career out of by enjoyed it?

and their friend as our friend works as you, you earned your seat at the table, the table being America yeah, and I I I believe in that kind of stuff. I, like, I believe, in public service, all those kind of things I'd. I encourage my daughter, oldest daughter when she was heading off to college. She asked me about navy and I was told her I said I didn't want to make make a career out of this liked it. I, like that sense. The community sense service, the she's career as she's career she'd, been ten years now and she's. she's, not a doktor and enable a nurse midwife based, yet it equivalent of a doctor and some real proud of that but you know by the time I got to the navy, though I I had so many people tell me: they'd, read my letters because I actually bought typewritten the navy, a manual typewriter, which I wish I still would have kept, and I typed all my letters because I've I type, and I I cranked out lodged aerial anyone that to write to me I'd write em back and I

am I good as you're learning to write yeah, yeah and and when you start having people tell you that when I read your letters, I feel like I'm right there, and I mean that means something. When I got my got out that I have stuff falling, my dad's footsteps, I went off to knowledge and got my degree in journalism, and then I thought to myself, but junior year, esta working for the local newspaper, nash, gosh, scots and as a local sportswriter. which is kind of like leduc yeah, because it was anyone who knew me and knew it was a joke that I was actually covering high school sports, because I never had any interest in in in most the sports up for the packers green bay packers. I liked oh yeah, I covered them for two or three years and it was miserable because it was like being a fan. I don't like being a you know, working on a beat for your covering into teen teen that you can't cheer for because you, how do you guys like I mean not that I mean like specific, like everybody likes thirteen, but why is it that you guys that people wisconsin are so fired up about the packers? This win the super bowl or something

while they want, they want for time, Steve bought that they were recently no, not not since two thousand tonnes, but their eyes competitive, and in the last twenty years we ve been spoiled. We ve had an incredible quarterback and less twenty years, but to answer rushed in wisconsin plugs dogs, yawning you'll, like it into the barriers that could give a shit not until it gets cold eddie outside and then in December. I sat watching when all because you guys tell me that that's the perfect day when the path is your plant, that's the day you can hunt everybody else, yeah like if you can think we were going to talk if you've been kind of curious about hunting someone else's property, do it while the packers are playing cause, you damn sure not going to run into the guy and then you can go and shoot deer off his land. You had a question earlier. Look It blew some of the navy. I gotta move on from all this and I want you to that. We're in doug's dogs, farmhouse. I don't want to

dogs on the environmental surrounding away from this I've known path for animal awhile and and then who ten or twelve years, something like tat and we ve had we ve talked about kinds of things, but I guess I've never really heard the whole navy story before and when I'm real, the curious about what you know. He was a locksmith and I didn't know he was the locksmith in the navy. I do about the guy your whole life, but I wondered about Your father, you hear the telling your father interested in becoming a fire fighter and all that. But yet your father's gun it. So we discourage you ve, not naughty. He encouraged me to going to fire fighting I should have finished s story. It's good point doug. What happened when when, when I came up, became that juncture had to choose dad's a is to go into the journals misquoted, the offered because he said to me and he was right. Some of the navy teaches everyone. Fire fighting skills

everyone in a fire has to has to respond and data bent through the coast. Guard's training in an event to pry up is a president, a navy, actual navy firefighting schools, because the coast guard will will help out with the navy stuff in order to use the navy facilities, so dad probably knew all that stuff. But again you know because, as nineteenth I thought I was smart and that you know what I know. What I want to do. I just blew off dad's advice and came to the life by early right at the top of yours. I shoulda and again I quote you. The pen is mightier than sword, the pennies you than the fire, so I I've never met our move on we're going all the way please let me know thanks. So I've never met pats dead but he's a famous character and in madison I was the night.

chief and and really interesting. I also use like a high level fire me madison, the fire gb madison during the sick. I gotcha authority is hated. Buyer there's one of fire to be put out Well, you know in the stories that I've heard about him he's a bit of a character. You know and- and I I just kind of thought- that maybe he was just saying sorry, son- no dad actually told me- and I'm not making this up. That actually told me that all of this for sons they either Oswald was most most personally wise, most cut out to be a fire. Yeah. I never quite knew what he wrote was that true, what what is the personnel? Okay? I don't wanna talk about those things like not not being afraid to go bowling There are not being afraid to hang on to shit in the steel. Stick! Your nose in there

you and maidens in distress and whatnot. He thought that you were that guy. So then you got it okay, then you became so that and I want to skip writing about sports cause. That's not that's not interesting. I agree. So you wrote about athletics, okay. Now, then, then, then you became a professional outdoor writer when and where I, where I could construct a full time. Wasn't till I got deer and deer hunting magazine, oh and but but at the oshkosh paper. What I did because it's just a small you know like a mid sized city in moscow in about fifty thousand people and the newspaper couldn't staff a full time, outdoor writer, but they, let me basically be a half time. Outdoor writer then also ran the week as editor of the week and newspapers. I also covered the education beat for awhile either the school board that kind of stuff, but I have reason that I should say they'll real, quick. The reason I one of the sports desk at first was because

That was the quickest route to the outdoor page. Oh yeah, the sports sections, almost always that legitimize. Is it my eyes that matters to you cause it was? It was an app that was my. My ulterior motive was to get into the outdoor page and eventually I got control the outdoor page, and I I really worked at beat now cause my my dream was to use that platform there to get the market journals I and go to. He couldn't become Milwaukee Milwaukee journal salt, dough writer, because you grew up hunting fishing, yeah johnny. What point did you become so bored and making notes or other doom yeah? Okay? And so at that point, then

cause. You were going to syndicate. He explained that yup my mustn't occasional then start Claire, actually start working at deer and deer hunting magazine and deer and deer hunting was lucky. When I first went there. It was one of the neat magazine because disturbed by local guys up in appleton wisconsin has two guys it was yeah. Oh yeah, it was started in Appleton, wisconsin and seventies. seventy seven by two guys that they started off their magazine was caught. They had to some travelling roadshow. Basically, they go to high schools and civic groups and do presentations of whitetail deer and they're doing all sorts of crazy stuff that they put speakers up in the trees and blow noise. see our dear respond to it, and so there, like they're, like do in their own, like shoestring in their own unclear research, exactly that that's net and they plus they are the first guys to rely, start actually gone and taking out scientific research and bring it to practical use for hunters now as a tagline them. Magazines, though published

yeah yeah you're there, ten years yeah eleven years yeah and I I really enjoyed it, and it gave me opportunities that I never would have gotten anywhere else, because it gave me up one of the things I really got. All that was the big benefit up made me realize how much I liked as boring as it can be sitting at these different scientific seminars and waiting for that that little nugget to come some college kids research on dearer. They could use the magazines because it's like part of your job was just to cover all research pertaining to whitetail, deer, yeah and especially this stuff. The magazine's tagline was in it probably still is practical and comprehensive information for whitetail deer hunters. Are you and It was right up my alley. I liked that I I see like I. I've always found that I love deer hunting and that's the number one thing either alcoholics. You know this guy's, a deer hunter. That's all I all he does, but I realize,

as early on that as much as I love deer hunting, I'm not a predator to waste. I've met guys net fitted up magazine that there are predators. They know how to kill deer. They are good and I that's one thing I really love about. What I do is I get to meet guys but there are hundreds of fishermen that if you think you're a good hundred fishermen, you're jealousies- and these guys you see and tv and river may be. I hope this some guys are really respect the fact that guys really are in many cases better than you are at deer, hunting and burning. You are at best fishing year while I fishing and give it up spiegel office people, those people like an hour, they re magazines and people are guph feebly like or guph. do they mean who, like they do tv about hunting, they eyes did their work yeah, but number of people get to go out, as most of you go out like if you're not occupied. And where you're hutton or were you spent in a hundred and fifty plus days a year actively out in the woods,

in fishing, you're, probably going to see some things and learn some things I mean just you could be the. is not go ahead in the world, but some Gonna, robot value, anathema export of of exposure And then you take that I, like a ten year career, doing that at the end of that you have seen a ton of shit happened in the woods yet and a lot of these guys that got good at like in my in my in my generation of guys, like I always order me a little bit, but like mouse, color was just I'm not sure how do these days, but the gag could really got find him. new area look at over forgot pretty quickly. Otto during that area. Drug Millard would back in the sixtys and seventys wood was killing. really nice, dear northernmost scotsmen, looked like eyes, did no big bucks existed up their new and those guys like that net roy fast namelessness, guys I've met over the years a hunter worth. They can't tell you have read five more white paper:

in from our senior year, but they know how to kill deer. They know how to line things up figure out. What's going on or people. Others say that guys like that. Talking about like. Why expert and be like That's ambition, another kind of tree, his trees. There was in He didn't need woodsman shipyard knew how to hunt wait till ended. The point I made as you have all wolves. Don't they can't tell trees of art either, but date they pray, figure out habit. another conceptualize teresa. While I gotta do they don't do the linnean binomial nomenclature, but the, but they might conceptualize trees and someone like I, I I one dot. One bet they figure out real quickly when they walk in device go through a cruise through a section of woods which, which ones will bear fruit, which ones do productive and productive yeah they they it's like. You've mentioned the past hunters. Look at creek bottoms a whole lot differently than somebody else combined a car yeah. It's just it becomes part of your

you know that they won't live life? They can't walk in a part of a wardrobe, quickly figure out how this thing works here. Yeah when I was a trap and I couldn't go over culvert without slowing down or back and oh yeah, I had to respect every bit of water every time you know, and that's that's where I am love me, those car people. I I've learned your quickly to pay them respect for that. I think I might know more about some guy's research project and and how it turned out and I might be able to give him law facts they'll, they'll blow off. You know, as far as you know, like we talked about earlier about coyotes and cozy, or an interesting subject, because all this country they're having different impacts on during different different levels. You know, there's there's areas in northeastern minnesota like before about the idea that they can accept a certain ma predation summer, because I used to it later,

stop northern minnesota and you look at the research going back in the sixties. Yacht fought fawn survival through that first year it was like no twenty seven percent range, often as regularly and it's a harsh environment winter would kill him kill him off. Did that come through the summer, okay, never make it never make it out of winter and twenty seven thirty percent. Bible enough for the first year was not uncommon. So, what's it around you, don't we something like one point, one font per day survive zero, because we have so many twins. You know I got it yeah. I mean you lose a few though very good, recruiting, yeah and because it has parts of south carolina right now where they had like point, for you know for a fawn recruitment. One point for no no point for like zero point. Four. What's the reason for that

because right like because right now, those areas of the south in south carolina miller, south eastern states, thinner known kelly's really until real the the dairy reliant still haven't figured out. I figured all those things are going to kill my fun we had when we kicked off as a little teaser, I said: are they really killing all the deer? You said no well some guy in south carolina is pulling his hair out. That's kind of why I circle back to you, because all you want, but I want to get into too, but I need to clear something up. Just for my own understand science. You don't know this yet I do want to talk what's up it, but also in this There's another obstacle tripped up it. Maybe no one else in the world is on and the the demise of the outdoor com, and in as aware, I wanted to understand their ethical. Might be help of understand the survival of an outdoor columnist yeah. So what would you do that? So so you want to doing deer, hunting and beginning

learn chief right, other national publication right became a national public it yet. But how did a wind up being that you write a whiskey nickel about wisconsin in an appears in a bunch different newspapers in wisconsin. The way I did it when I want we want to work for doing during magazine. I was lucky because back that are still was independently and their owners I said, durham, you not. I explain to them I really like newspaper work. I like newspaper columns, like writing a weekly column. It's something I relate to pride in and I asked me would would you mind if I kept writing it? I won't do it at work. I'll! Do that on my own time, on the weekends and at night? Okay, but as this is important to me, is something that I I liked doing and that they agreed and then I won the company I bought out the magazine about a different. Do me a year and a half and get bought out will accompany bought us out. Wanted me to drop the column they like.

The guy that sold it make a lot of money when I sold it ya, think they dead account progressed so good, but but I like, along the way, though I stirred up laura, but I did at first as I had a woman who was trying to launch her own indication service if she is based and she asked me if she could pick up my outdoor com or whatever package. So she she pitched it to a couple of different newspapers. Wisconsin state journal and back in those days were seen ever seen. Newspaper picked it up, Oshkosh picked it up and walkers in our tunnel run by Milwaukee, picked it up and then eventually I had it in eau claire and then they dropped it. I know it's, not all sugar and spice either love them. You know, but two or three them drop me but then over time, though my neck game was right now, but seventeen newspapers, roma, scots, like hearing the column re now right now you shouldn't meter.

I didn't know there were seventeen newspapers in wisconsin anymore now when duct? So when I, when Doug, I keep your bills after before I met you doug was talking about your work in wisconsin and how people in wisconsin are so serious about deer and deer hunting. Do you know the statistic I came here? What it is but the like taxes has four times. Many dear. I wish I knew how this went text says four times as many dear. twice as many people, but have as many hunters or some shit like that match your other. I don't know their numbers in texas. It was just about how dudes in wisconsin hunt yeah detroit. If you look, I think, what's wisconsin's population is about seven million six. Six. Seven million some places that you like me to fact check that you could, but it's it's on the Google zone. Did you order Doug. I've really neat piece of research. You know from about ten

About twenty years ago, this is now a friend of mine time harbour line. He made a cup in his he? He was a sociologist and he'd study, hunting and hunting motivations, these kind of things, and he always would say all of wisconsin. He said in wisconsin you either are a deer, hunter or steep, dear hunter, and he wasn't he wasn't. He was an said. You said you'd do both re multitasking, oh and but you have you, have you look at the average discuss the household? It's unusual not to have a family or some dear hunter and somewhere in that family, immediate family and what Was talking about when you tell me that is he was saying that not that you get like. I know if you get actual the threats by the? U like, as a joke, he was saying. Pat jerkin gets, like

I hope people mad enough where they wouldn't be surprised that they would give you a death threat over whitetail politics of whitetail politics as vicious, and it's just it's it's it's ok, I said dear make people stupid that it makes people stupid mean, sometimes dear, and especially if you are piss off group of people real fast, its dear hunters, that day on, they can be We will be a thing that you found. Would piss off dear hunters, basics, you write a calm about like like obviously wolves, gonna pills, piss piss them off. And if the disease pisses dear homes, not disease, somewhat, not not as much as like baiting baiting lays device of divisive Is it a people s reign for me in article I say you said, I'm going to piss off wisconsin's, dear hunters

I will write an article about this subject in frame it this way. Well, what will be like the most divisive thing? You can say I'll, say I'll I'll. Try address that question. I will say that I have never written a column meanness from above my heart of nerve and calm, the intent someone off assist, not how I work, but that real right up romanian what you had to have done it in anticipation or deftly you'd. You know few bring this topic up less than plight city or not people. Some people can get mad and right and write a rotten letter, deah and biased figure. Again at this is another At core beliefs is that I look at my writing from the newspaper as a as something I do as kind of a public service I get paid for it, but I really believe in putting information out there and if they don't want to believe the information

that's up to them. I can't change their mind because you know people have their own dirt dirt once they have not an attitude toward something you're going to change their mind, but I think it's important to find the information and I hate to use words that cause an omelet really how'd. You go about vetting. Besides talked a lot people and find get to a point where you think this this makes sense. This is factual input. If there are any of that, but that's an interesting point to bring up right now, because we're sort of engaged in a big cultural debate about like what is you know this whole I mean I have only once f a k, e news? Okay, so we're like really caught up in this. But what is right, like guinea, be factual or listen. I've got some things, there is some things you can you can achieve a scholarly consensus. On some things: a scam

early consensus or an academic consensus could be evasive, but there is a way that present a contentious argument. in a way that is transparent. About what is known like explain. What is the capital Where does the scholarly consensus and what direct do you feel based on a reasonable amount of work things. My be going when you get beyond the known facts and not known facts right and be open about the things that might prove to be wrong. I'm not ready to give up on this idea culturally That is the way the present information in its ec because we don't know which

I have a be as deceptive, and in is wrong as possible, because we don't know I I I really firmly believe- and I still think most people think this way that they still want facts mean there's a lot of people out there that want to joke around about science, not being an alternate vague. That's that's not be us. There's really smart people out there that you can dig up their stuff and you, Look back and in you thirty forty years of research and see it there's stuff keeps lining up setting up the lining up it, we got this. This is this is the way it is But you know what frustrate mile man about issues of what we would call fact is. Who was frustrated with anything that the that are understanding would evolve. So if if your understanding of something evolves overtime, he didn't see it. as being a natural process.

He saw it as the minute opposition evolved chain like our understanding, was enhance. He then thought well disregard the entire system that even made this, so you could say, like I may, take it unifil matter of like human evolution. Ok, so you have some mighty about, evolution. You know, organism change over time. Corn used to be the size of your pinky corn is now real big like organism, changes or time based on certain pressures, but here. You go into some issue of like lake Human evolution is almost too controversial to demonstrate my point as their top up what killed earphones so We have an understanding that that blackberries kill dear funds. Then someone will come up with a thing. The says: what, We never looked at bobcats and now we're looking at bob casual as the bobcats are a significant killer. Deer fawns you'd like, but I was told the black

there's do it now, never mind? No, no shit! You know because he hated the idea that you too have to sort of state to all the time as news things came in and that when new things came in, wasn't that we're dismissing the body of knowledge is were engaged in this activity. That is not perfect, changes over time, but was just trying to maintain an understanding of the world that we live in. Undermined harbour line as a great saying about research and the whole idea of to improve our knowledge, improve our understanding he makes his comment that he said all all research is the trivial or wrong either proves what we already know, which is trivial or approves never believe, and that I can think in deer hunting its cost. It mean, but this research earlier about? Oh yeah, the article. You would write those as the article that passivity right am. I gonna do

many cases was with a certain crowd, is go back and dig up the final results of some recent research which everyone was clamouring for when it was like this there is a great study that was done. wisconsin dnr from about two thousand and nine two thousand and ten through about two thousand and thirteen looked at fawn survival looked at over winter survival in two different areas of northwestern wisconsin. When a north eastern wisconsin, just north of me, and what was really interesting, that in the farm country of eastern wisconsin right above me, the number one killer of of the fonts was of is fourteen percent we're being killed by winter starvation and no one thought dearer starving if starvation in those days mean just recent times. We have thought that wasn't happening and

could do for what else is killing him, while road kills her, but getting out for five percent of them, sometimes and and but then all these things were done all it's really good information. It was all released. People like me wrote about it. People I got people writing to me saying this is all bullshit. This is just the dnr spinning their fast, because when the thing they didn't like was because in northwestern wisconsin, where there's wolves walls were not found to be, much of a predator at all for fallon it as a cover up yeah they're, just as a cover of sod. So they have. This research didn't like the way it turned out, so they disregarded it had the same thing with them. They did us. The united are really intense. Sociological. Research into public attitudes toward wolves All the people who don't like dont, like walls which has a lot of them, were convinced that one this research when I find out that wisconsinites nets relayed dont, like walls, even though especially the ones that the people down in southern wisconsin who don't deal with walls but war like some those

I feel like I'm the most right now so as a new jersey cat, ladies personally least likely to like you know what- and that's that's very true that I'll get to that door, but that It's the thing they found those even in wolf country, the majority of people still overall supportive wall was defined like defined like wolves. Well, that's! That's! That's a good crush! That's a good good point, and basically it's the fact that I don't dislike, I don't dislike wolves, I love them. I think I like, oh, I, like all wildlife, including, and I have a special place in my heart for the wolf. Does it mean you like them or like what does that mean? while you, if I like em there, and I learned come to be managed by the state, and I have an I believe, based on a considerable bit of research that we have a sustainable. population in the northern great lakes, they can be made.

As a renewable resource? Does that put me in liking or not liking to push into liking? Their posts me that, like put like I'd, been electing camp too, because I actually drew a wolf tag in two thousand and twelve and the first issued them, and I found out real quickly enough, but wolf hunting to be very effective at it, but I blinders because is like laker, oh yeah, but that I should say I think I think the way they are they worded it in this in this research was basically one day when the things was, do you want more? right now? As the wolf looked wolf numbers and knowledge that adequate is inadequate. Is too many the two too few new and most people like things, are in a sixty four. Range of things are ok the way they are. It didn't have a problem with the wolf numbers, whereas law, the hunters dont, want that many worlds yard the hunters would say not the dean, our says or seven hundred walls, while is more like two thousand new slide. I always ask them what word you get your number

well yeah how the hell the dnr got their numbering. In that true, the survey showed that that that fieldwork work that was done to get that number. So where do you get this two thousand number you know but but then what hold on a minute, I know we're getting distracted a lot. Okay had a we had a guest. I wrote on this. you're part again mcmahon right who runs the? U s, gs, grizzly, bear programme in the greater yellowstone egos Some ye ask him how many arthur. he'll, give you a number- and you say, but probably more yeah, yeah or there's six hundred, thirty, two, but probably more and I was just tell me six thirty two because there's the model we use We know that that model has changed. We have an update them There is almost certainly more but worse it, but if I put a gun to your head, and said how many are their board. You say six, thirty, two, but probably more a tool to up to it.

A wide margin. More well says thing I'd say that what is more wide margin, because it depends on how your modeling it sometimes you have a model like like in this case they either going, What happened in this case when they model doubt how me they had? It was based on it was based. And the whole range of females. Ok, knowing females head some fidelity to their home range, edward Jim really intolerant of other breeding age females in near them. And then model was drawn up at a time before that model was John. at a time when they hadn't really dispersed across suitable habitat, and so they found over time is that their more comfortable living club, so together. They don't quite know how much, though, so, when they model it out, they come up with a number, but all the experts like, but they're much more comparable living closer together,

now we haven't an adjust the model. So I know there are more, but the answer we have to have, because this is the will that we put forth, tells us even though we all know it's probably wrong, so I think that it is like you can go out and do like if you go out and just do a count. Okay, you can got, Let's see he gonna do a survey or you're fine transect of a helicopter councils, and you can be Damn sure tell you that there are seven hundred, probably lot that we I can damn sure tat. Their seven hundred mega have two things the non lakers of wolves, are gonna. a lot of attention to the problem more nor the lakers indicate in this way you're sketching on the lake. You're gonna pay a lot of attention to it. at minimal, known number and that's very important to them, because they want to present it as not as numerous because their goal is to keep them listed, yeah and the other people's goal tendencies the dealers, so they're gonna like that bigger number.

all the time in this country and the thing that rugged sick of that this whole discussion. That no one really knows for certainly can't you can't you like the point. I think we should always make. Is that you look at our country. We can't even agree on a cop people new in this country. We we have real, asked god important fights over a census for people. So if you can't count noses humans, reno or purse, we know our address as they pretty much can go near our homes, to figure out what we got even done. You're still arguing, but but that's the point that some, the real famous wolf biologists make whether it's valid guy It is not specifically a wolf biologist, but he's a Angulo guy. He is, he knows his stuff, though, as a guy I forgot, his name is over and ITALY is europe's most famous wolf researcher point disk italian guy makes its adding the valid points is instead a worrying

individual numbers of wolves be looking at something that matters? What matters is how much damage they do and that's that's quantify watched, but the damage vacant fi that that's much easier to get a handle on the humming are out there now through, not throughout their not killing livestock to not killing uncle it, sir, that not doing this, who currently numbers are out there. We need to have that number d, herblay, mantles walls or do anything, and now you dont diverse peace price. Americans, this is wanting that rest of the wildlife biologists around the world was a marvel as the way we hang up on numbers where there's deer numbers, and that seems like as deer and wolves, especially that people really worry. But what's our what's run. That was coarseness. We fight about numbers all time, and we don't know

how many deer per square mile yeah I mean it's just and then you get into arguments, was a deer per square mile of habitat and who judges the habitat quality. And you end up in these crazy. You know where people get mad type of discussions, because there is nothing anyone can all agree on. Trying to define trophy hunting in our they're asking people, you like trophy hunting way limit define what that means. But what I was gimme a number thirty four here, fifty dear per square mile of suitable habitat ire, and that I even believe that, but but then I could get it, but then that moves around two candidates area surveys. They do it in the winter of double check, typically, would define as that cereal surveys miss lot to even what snow covered the ground? still miss lotta dear. So it's alright! It's why some argue about and that that that they're thing that was

trust no but get backed wolves and you talked about all of the people there, jersey, love walls, nakata the one thing that is really cool. but much a resource done about fifteen years ago about wolves and people, public attitudes towards what they found us that that the popularity of wolves really hit it, zenith back in the mid nineties, hundreds and there really work. Many walls relate people really round the world, mrs, is they went back and it looked like different social, legible studies on outraged, her wolf from all over the world, europe russia, even down into the into the middle eastern countries, that isn't the modern serious and they looked at the north american continent, and they in that reality, picked around in a night night with the meeting, I point out that in a suit us to come back every place, they they looked was the more you dealt with the wars of less populated. Yeah, that's my feeling about the bald eagle. If

illegals were smart. They would start reproducing so effectively because they had there were extraordinarily popular and there's still pretty popular but and so numerous. I feel that they're going to feel their popularity. We do not do their problem animals, anyone we know me, but I still real people polish eagle. You don't believe me there. We have as I guess it's. Come a time when people are gonna, see an eagle they're going to think about it like they think when they see a a robin. Why? Because they got so popular in their absence well and what's fun about a bald eagle. Is that people a lot of people who romanticize them bomb dot disappointed when they see a bald eagle, feeding on a carcass set their their scavenger in it that efforts some something: it's blue there. It's like finding out the euro, your mother,

if cheating on your dad or something you know a deal when a when it was put out that the idea that the body will be the national, an animal franklin criticized it Ben franklin, he's he's also mistakenly credited with putting forth to turkey, which you did not do right, but they said the be the mail or national bird and Ben franklin thought Why would you have like a carrying eater, lowly garbage, eater a says kind of people think he argues for sea they have read what he wrote and you they had a different styles. So you can't like read: between the lines quite as effectively as you could read, between the lines of a contemporary Writer thinker, but he had said, like you, So do the damn. Turkey, because least he's vain break his silly in vain any

The point in there I think to about he's got he's, got guts basically cause you he'll attack that that recorded british guy few shows up your garden. I think and saw it but yeah. He didn't like that. Eden was a garbage eaten by carrion feeder or even questioning the eagles courage, because because little birds attack it and can drive it away from you know sarah yeah yeah, so it as allies neat little things that you find bought franklin. He was a ladies' man. Oh yeah definitely was. I don't want to get into that so sort of answer. My question. yeah, I'm sorry, are you wondering if you're gonna write the article that was going to be most insulting to wisconsin deer hunters like like dogger? Okay? What would the article be right now in the current climate. I guess, if I wonder I africa have written this, I store wanting to do. People know it so

people are well accused me of ups obsessing, an issue at police and end those, while in this case, the thing I recommended a few years ago, people as bad timing. Bottom, why you don't like the dinner I do wonder how they're managing cwd use. What would you do if you were the king and us of all first thing? I'd do is have is to earn a bucket of double earn a buck. You don't shoot a buck until you shoot loose at least two antlerless deer, and that dog thinks that you shouldn't be able to shoot any box. Well, I think that that's not true, I don't think dead were dog, doesn't really think that he was megan. I was trying to make a point at the county, jury advisory committee meeting and because people just don't like be forced to do something, I think, that's the biggest knock on where we all live in america, yeah and and it's really it is part of our character. Really don't like being-

well. She was everywhere until there are none left, but such so that that that thing does that, every time I write about those kind of things where we should mandate something and make clear yachting baby. It will get their hey get mad at any of the people who are more reasonable, get mad at that. Then they'll now be told what to do, but why what? Why was that? guys and this isn't met. This is the opposite, does not mandate. This is unmanned dating this is instead of instead of restricting peoples, ices, you were expanding people's choices, giving them more opportunity for the exercising of free will Do you guys want to make it? You could wear pink Hunters or not us law passed the you guys really feel that were women who were like yeah man. I want so bad But I am not going to the woods with

blaze orange. I blaze it's it's! It's a color that on some women, like in some woman, dont like their fullest you're patronized them. By saying that we what effect, but I'm a friend of mine who is in the garment hunt, hunting garment industry seven, they start making mixing pink hot pink into their arm into their hunting clothing that fervors godson inauspicious consul market now on a video state has that has passed, plays pink as acceptable, color, but must continent cells in this affair, and anyone on market access session of that. Went to law like faster than any other vi is because, as long as it's an easy lotta pass, it's like for, like I was talking to dionysus father day about a current proposal. I think is telling you about two about the guy wanting to make on the wild turkey or state game, bird and yet ass his father had a waste was karla politicians like because it doesn't doesnt cause knee inked. Its easily past

goes through use even in one session, and it makes them feel good in, like a must and this is famous for these kind of things is- doesn't dating this thing. In that thing, as a state, we must state rock. I don't know what it is, but we got one in michigan, petoskey, stone. Okay, thank your lord! I do it and and and then yard. I think we have a state muffin. It's like a cranberry muffin so many times And all I was not, that's not where I was and eyes mislead Marie st muffin, getting back into the muffin madison. If, if I remember too the corral theo CBS heat he twitter, almost one time and on his law tv show that he has great programme. He eve, we're almost got one time. He knows that every law town be was got like where I live. I older bore hunting capital the world freely.

Godson, while I capital of worldwide is that there should be any if I, charles crop, when all is lost cities that got the cap and the world type things he said I decide. The discussion is the capital of the capital, the world, and I think we ve gotten get back even to your patrick question. You're, something risky business or just very chauvinist about their state. yet, but there, the wisconsinites and in this conference, to get a grip michigan. So I grow michigan We went down. The bees were looking across at you. Guys were scots, on average, are higher caliber human than michigan nights a real high stand, though I'll say why I think that's the case. I think that you went around Michigan and in an polled people but you know limit this to locate your michigan polling people that hold either a hunting or a fishing licence. So do you I am at your service to those people and you ask those p.

What watershed do you live in? I think mischance nights, but beat on three two one. There is Greater environmental in landscape awareness in wisconsin, then michigan by of huge Argentina haunts me: I can't figure out why it's true, I maybe it was gods. People Gaza can usually tell you. like if there take a leak on the ground. What river that pistol wind up and how it would make it's interesting and like just little things like that or you be targeted, Random collection of wisconsin dude more would know how to go find a moral than a random collection. I don't know what it is I wanted to die? I can't speak to that. I think it's the people that you talk to him scattered.

excel yeah cause. They all know you hang out cause, they all know each other and they all liked the outdoors a lot yeah. I dunno man I'd like to do it I'd like to do it up, I'm going to do that. The researchers call that when they call at a street lamp science are you look underneath the street lamp at night and where was going honor you can see it's so you make your that's your can conclusions, but what's going on beneath that street lamp, while outside the streetlights much bigger world, and so what you're, seeing in any that street lamp might not be anything close to what's going on around it yeah and I dunno, but but Allah to think that you're right, I think, we're gonna need have no fear. They have and enhance their landscape aware in sectors. I think the state pride, I think more, like em I dunno I could be wrong and probably pissing off a lot of guys, my home state, I think

like a more robust where state patriotism, so to speak of like a guy's nor in the hunting industry. He would look at that thorn, say we're scots and suffers from a whopping inferiority complex. There are made you guys have a shit state, but no, but you make up for it by thinking it's a good state and knowing what creeks are, what make you make up for it by knowing what creeks flowing to what creeks that flow into what rivers? I like it told incredulous doug. You know by now. Are you damn sure know what creeks urine were that yeah in and you probably have a wider experience of of folks in wisconsin And I do it because I am, I spent a lot of time, the folks at I know. No, those kinds of things, no doubt I'll put but you're saying the hunters and fisher sigh, and I have no idea in Michigan what people

I cannot go around both places yeah. I don't want to dwell on. I'm gonna get back to stuff the pet stuff that I read. Pets. Where was I reading the article that europe would that's one labour norms. I stumble india articles cause you right for all kinds, but not don't stumble into your columns, I stumble indira articles, you write magazine, hooker and, and I believe, These have been attributing it to you. Did you write a thing. What were you covered? Some research about what box do doing right now where they actually like do they travel cause I keep saying he wrote that right: oh yeah, I've written a hold the editor of deer and deer hunting box during a riot, probably not no, no recently or recently yeah, and it was about gps data, okay, yup on dubai,

It was like it was like. Do bucks really travel all over holy hell during what I've written a couple of that a number of them so now that I've old people. What I think you said, what did you say in that? Or what? What were you reporting on yeah? That the the one thing that I liked about some? This recent research they've been doing with with bucks during the rotten where the goal is not using gps and can actually really get a pretty good handle on where they are at numerous times day and in the old days, thirty years ago they do radio telemetry twenty twenty five years ago. and it did- I get a reading of every couple days or something one if they haven't gotten put there and it is up to find a slightly late. Ammonia is very difficult, but was was trusting was Adam Smith research from the nineties that does the old fashioned way they found even back then that these books are really individual. that? When you say bucks always do this during the rot?

They really go ranging all the place, while some do, but most em don't ya, but it. But there still always these exceptions that all some buck willem go off and who knows where but yeah like that at all in like the Elk Earl lion born and saw the quota gets hit by a car in connecticut yeah. But I regret that do they all got economic and no european aid via the south dakota right? That's what sums opening up a lot of research with its blistered cuff worth our figures going on is that if a buck early in life scores close to home, while the system works, waste is close to home. For the most part, is laws he's alive. He realized stolen info of those in the area and he hangs ronnie, he's a pleasure and keeps moon around till it gets one gets them.

System works, so you keeps doing it off a buck, nor buckets less aid, for whatever reason gesture still have that law area ang get just get the harm hormones going. You can't stop himself, he starts wandering and encounters. dull, while that system works for him so next year, he's doing it again so that it's really individual has prided smith little things that I think it's primary someone to just how gun season works rancorous some years, fears that same dearest and every single year and some guy if in a different way, one day in a buck runs by you think, while systems for can pretty good, but you don't know that just a fluke that this guy she's to buck passion, but not, but there are things to that's all of us in this room. churches that I look out to think well, you know based on us gps data data, but guys same but mule dear thirty. Forty years ago holds up on because here too,

as well like geist and John Zoega, who did whitetail research shepherd up in the? U p of Michigan? They fallen nuts in these really beautiful box of biggest box, where I think guys called him shirkers they would come out and they didn't want to get their ass kicked. So if there is a buck- In the door, rather than engage and try I'd rather buck off, you'd shrink back now. Maybe what happened early in his life was that he got in the middle. He got between a buck and a door, and the bo buck gordon beat the crap out of him. He thought I'm gonna go through that again and so his system was a say in a safer area. Look for the want to drop in his lap, and

and nail her in live long and live longer, and then, but then, when that big gut buck gets shot or just disappears from landscape all sudden, he goes oh man game on again he's back out. There is nice doing a little bit different behavior and what was really cool about some of the stuff. That was all good. Did I miss you guys call it the shirkers shirt yeah the eac call themselves at yiddish. Now. Jerk no to shirk was then circuit shirt, your duties at a sage I arcade shirk now use at her. On his attorney, honest, I don't know- but you know the way casually either, but I think guys call them and was all guy had a very similar conclusion that there's three bucks? I dont really engage much and he was a czech sneeze buxom in his sleep and up and the appeals like ask mile square pen and when I think the fallen there as it is, is this, but that was not engaging in not taking part

here I think they must have. They must have had a way to trap dumb and check their blood cause. He did a blood check on this buck. What turns out this buck had a high level of protest round if a female the female hormone, zero air and then, but when that book got his chance from the other, the bigger. fuck that was dominating him. You know that scaring him when that buck disappear from the ide, then he died and he has been ma the pound or something like he fried died, while since a big buck that that stress, inducer was removed, his progesterone levels dropped, no shit rose, and you think this is cool, stuff, adieu, impact and days before ps genus, believes janius believes that I think is the pleases that there are box who will go up and hide. This is the same stuff that he's talking about

Well, the guy sort yeah, but I just don't. I've read a fair bit of bell guys: let's leave it to the pat jonas beliefs based on a thing that he believes originated with various guys that there are box. Who will play the very long game and they'll go up and high, up in some heidi hellhole their whole life. Until just giants. Then, one day, though thing to themselves, you know about big, as I'm gonna get undressed, and then have a comedy, then no walk down and give them all. I have a very difficult time with that. I guess I'd with you, because I must say that I as well, no, I mean I figure you're, making the exaggerated steve sure of this or that he just explained. Oh yeah, we're dislike it in time.

like when, like times are hard, it's like might be like well. I do not feel that. Well, there's like a rough winter, he didn't have a great summary upon a lot of fat like they decide to instead of go in. And engages go crazy, like our shirk this year, maybe a couple years the systems work and for me, and then re enter. They think thing as our no acidic wouldn't happen, because I just gave some examples where recall happens and the thing that arm gazed we'll talk about. Oh farmers, farmers is something that the that are being stressed. They grow big antlers inquisitive. So much the energy into those in other to growth. animals at our stressed their nerve. Their eyes. Looking other show that impact antlered of oil are definitely struck. Definitely stressed stressed, is a big pamphlets, an unequal development. so do it are shed han and needy snow army

in next year's sheds, not as big well that you could probably make that argument. But you know that If you see that makes people mad. cause. It comes down to you telling someone you can't do what he wants to do. If you're trying to get me to combat that no one does a thing cause. We have like a pretty bad winter in some areas and people started bringing up in shed hunting more and more easily gone the woods I hate sentences beginning it used to be when I was a boy when I was a boy Like you, don't know what you found a doing. They eyes there ever right. There wasn't like a thing like was like it. Just wasn't as much of a thing to fine ship. right, but you know, have many people who really like self identified as shed hunters who do special trips to go hunting sheds this idea right right so now as becoming more and more popular in people are more more gung ho to get after them, the sex

and they dropped to the point where they watch yard it up dear, in deep snow, come near march, whatever wherever during your area, drop that there was yard it up in the middle the drop in order that their chasing them to get him to draw right like a deal one and not the other in a chase after it to try to get it to jostle free. The other Andrews thing get a matching pair, so some people have pointed out this might something we need to get out ahead of the same way. We got out ahead of the uk, What year round as much as you on their side, For that they put forward the idea that we would regulate this morning that pistol, I can't find a more stressful time, probably friend, for an ally that tommy. Here I thought you, your says winner weakens spring kills. While that warned that we chatter

it's in november, in colorado he was saying the number one. Ah you know impact on the deer population is now he believes is that while mayo is like even now with habitat, but the summer recreation there, You know it is a slave. Is more people haven't been in the woods in all impasse? years and hikers and bikers and you given a lot of work looking at methods of conveyance in what it and do with dispersal away from trails. and there's lots of counter intuitive shit and oil about what freaks them out and what doesn't freak them out. Yet, while if you're going to lie these game, farms like a Dear farm, especially his dear aurelia skittish animal that doesn't do well in confinement, where they have all those you'll see em like black draped, take material around defences, cause

if dear see something else outside offence, makes some nervous that they struggle. nazi start running around the circle, just very stressful, keep relax and try keeping relax as much as I can and keep them isolate from all that kind of, although stressors and but you know like it's always fun and interesting- Ilk farmers will see some of the Elk out in the wild and northern wisconsin and up in the clam lake erie, which isn't very good Elk habitat and are a lot more spindle rack type type bulls that aren't anything real impressive. They aren't, like you, see out in arizona or something and then they'll showed some the elk they having Y yeah, but your control in the environment and that net patent got all of the other. Their food their form, they have a really, but all the environment's controlled altered running rough chasing, running away from walls or ring about walls and in all areas It cost me alert, take that takes its tor. Under in there, there were over our well being so I think most people can relate to that. Just

well, when we are talking about different box and in iran and how they acted on. I just sounded me like you're talking about guys that. Why are you guys are more active and more interested in whip. I'm not going, who live from work, active work. Just and women not interested, and when I got your shirk yours to catch her shirking yeah, my exploring guys like you go out. The bar he's gonna be open. Wounded at the bar is gonna put in a long night, thursday long night, friday, long night saturday spend all of his money drinking at the bar right below I'm just die and meet someone got some sugar? at home on the final yeah he's got. Roommates is gonna hangs. I welcome sniffing around two in the morning, like my experience with with

dear in a very limited area in on this. This farm is the owner of the deer, gets the less it moves. That's the way it seems to me. I like that We saw southern issue that we already talked about a bunch times, but we saw a group a meal, dear boy, shit load, adults and a very nice buck in aspen patch and yeah is look at those knockers aces option kyle to come down to the Essen patch. Kyle's come down in all these four condos just come out there like spraying out of this ass from patch k that bach. Stands there and is her. His like he's gotta collected up his work in these those. He stands up. Assesses the situation what's going on, looks, watches the coyotes but those are gone

If you see him like run that shit in his head, I swear it. Look right and he's like you know what I'm just gonna lay back down. I'm not going to run now, others asked pairs getting shot by some asshole lay down in this that this law herself at her here, it'll sort itself out later he lay iv'e down and over the course of the day, all those doors come trickling back on that aspect and think about the calories. wait by not going on that run is that you all can run around getting all worked up. I think the thing to do is to hold tight So that's the reasons that I try to have a place on the farm that we don't go into and let us I will place a that's the dearest voice so that they can go in there and and. In their say where they were, and it might be too de sanctuaries sanctuaries. Do they worked basin? Your criteria, based on what what you hear from mom guys? I really serious bought them. They believe in it, because there are about this.

back me up to now, starting to do your favorite, no, no! No! No! No! No! I think something is pretty much a lot of folks if all the quiet, quiet dear has been tape. Ideas is sitting up their land and at sea I don't really believed in the sanctuaries. You know certain areas will put off guard and it's release limit is reached, scholarly consensus while not sure if it's a one off has done that no I don't. I am. I can't see have seen anything on that there might be, but haven't seen it have not only item in literally scholarly, but its reached like on its debt. Professional consents. Write me. I know a number guys who are deadly serious but keeping us sherry intact, so I turned to go and nearest retriever dead, dear Basically, they really dont violate their own thanks right that I have a hard time believe that you, like right. You got this farm and all you're really doing is you know you got all your responses. What you want to kill a big deer you'd like to grow, big deer and you wanna, kill big deer and and seas is gone, and you know this big job.

Its around and you look in earnest, see him all the time in air, and he's wine and down you got a day, left all the causes and should have gone home in there. Is in the sanctuary. You look in an erratum, you're, telling me that the guys out there who appeal that no can't do well, I know I do it's sanctuary. I know all just like that. I know that, but in an energy front steve what they're saying please that my Artekil now buck are butter. I waiting on hearing this trail. Does that leading down to alfalfa field or whatever might be, by hanging uglier than in sanctuary dot. They can see in their prey back in there and that the color say, sir I'm thinkin about ok, there's a little pocket. You can look into wonderland, okay, the one I'm the one, I'm imagining and he's in that little pocket one, no one why, if you can see,

no I'm sure you're going to say I was thinking I could find that your walk into posted this thing where, if you get there is only one knows: gotta listen! This is your fantasy sanctuary that I'm putting out a hypothetical dan. But I would I would like to thank our. I bet you You will find it most if not all, sanctuaries give violated. by these sanctuary owner. Maybe that is bodies Sanctions are made to be on the inky wearied by their it's a way for him to say. Let's take it easy see Things play out there's nothing, you cousins and what I could do to get in there. I'm going to wait and see the thing I think I'm struggling in all sincerity, is you know how hard it is as individual huh,

go any patch of cover and get a crack up any. I need you listener and swallowed a guy Intensely violate his own sanctuary, with with a very low odds of ever seen that bucket said you're creeping in there and puts a stain in there yeah I don't to dwell on okay. Now. Let me ask you about this good about our circle back to Jani story, real quickly. Another possible explanation for why didn't run out there is that there are cases lives gives. The document does actually photographed at we're a buck, will stand down a quality or stand stand, offer a wolf display, bracing up taken, and I am looking racist turn the animal dancing. You some others. try what you know funny about that now. You want to dig deeper on this I'll point out that those those that actually no interests, no dear stout they're, doing but companies later another big but alive monarch, shoot this book.

He's without ammo seven re those copper kyle's come through he's the one who runs away so they, spill off the back of the hill and in over them ex fifteen twenty minutes they all trickle back into where they were. He never comes back here, pulled off the back of the hill cross. The gully related found them better so might have been like he's like yeah how's, Cathy, I'm going to have a nap anyways, it's getting late in the day. It's like. I don't like to be out this time of day cause I've learned in my general buckner that it's like you get your morning take care of any go hides a navy. Just like I was gonna leave now, anyway, as non school, we attract trying to try, try, figure wine animal does something got good luck,

individual animal. Does it's obvious that, as you do in I just I just glanced up with skunk work and dogs hill in the middle of the night? What was he doing right dog thinks he smells afterbirth from the caf? Well, here's what I want to ask similar thing over, I think I've I've talked about. My I've talked about what I think he wrote about. What is the latest? What's the what's the the thinking? What did the lunar phases kay? a fact like pure, like that in a bother hunting, full moon I'm sure that discussion has been going on as long as people have been hunting. What am I one of my guys that I look up to the most as a hunter remi Warren Ramey. He is a firm believer to the point where he'll book, even for

airs spring spot stock spring bears he'll book his client. it's around lunar cycles. The blood is harder to meet that they want. One thing I really do believe it is a few have that kind of coffins in in something chance artworks, I hadn't. I idea that without don't do delay what works for you. I understand: ok, ok, but they continue to sailor europa like like about If I say, oh, I, like a you, know, a blue, like I like to this report and I'll be like dude. If you've got confidence in it and it works but that's it differ conversation than like what works yours, Humor in somewhat when you say that maybe but the research I've seen us all is that when knaves prided tion lunar activity, toys different movements will there at some for breeding purposes.

Herb, like truly all shermer eyes, had an interesting theory on non. What triggers the rights of its second? It's a harvest, moon that such things are more Well, when the researchers go in and ass, she looked at the stuff and back back date when funds drop because they back did it stop accurately and went down I've ever known, just the ocean right exactly so that they go back and look at s tough ned do at year after year, in a day, sk. We always beat up charlie's theories on that and they beat up in our through You see on an lunar cycles and guess what it is the road is ten things that is can't untangle em all yeah like photo period and see like no one- and I would never tried take on a guy

I liked in my generation the guy that really looked up to is john waters, the oldham deer. He was a dear expert for petersen's hunting magazine back in the seventies eighties nineties and John really bleeds in the moon. He he he there yeah. He really followed that the the lunar phases- and he always talked about. I think his his belief was that the the full moon was a terrible time to be, Their hutton daylight in the thinking is the raises its eyes. Articulated me by people who really abide by lunar cycles. Is the thinking is that its actual light out and do you're gettin, all their business taken care of at night because dearly Corpuscular animal. Their peak activity is low, light, so dawn dusk. But here they're, having like a corpuscular like atmosphere all through the night dark, but not dark.

did, they get all their business thing care of an end there. All tired out now go to bed when it gets daylight up now, if you understand yeah now, just throw it just throw, or you know just to mix it up a little bit, Down south america, where they hunt eternal, where they hunt like nocturnal animals, you don't like to home at night. Do you a full moon, because some colonel animals have such fidelity to the darkness. They won't come out on the moonlight night that that their defence mechanism, like dark. I think, too, that it won't hurt to the weight of the moon, sets and then go hunt certain not turn land. Was it like that thing? If it's at all like that, somebody does not come out. I'm pretty therefore the same thing with privileges studies, north america to certain numb, certain small. Animals that won't come all bright moon because they know that our consumers even bits lack in detail that the term to be killed and

I guess I'm always somewhat sceptical of the all night activity. Thinking well dear other patterns. They can be up in a futile long, an imminent seen dirt night la terms it there. But I find buds out my back law where I live that alone is no dear nanda daylight, because this law, open woods is never during in the daylight. They might move through at dawn or dusk. They don't they don't spend daylight in there says to to smuggle a spot, but for you go back there in the winter it was always fresh deer beds from overnight, so that they're not on their feet all night never enter. By that as you know, dollars on their fees like oh sweet, I can get everything I was gonna get taken care of taking care of have sex. Oh dear, I was going to have sex with eat all the food. I was going to eat I'll, get all that taken care of, and I don't need. run around like some moron come but come daybreak at an hour

no dear, to also have incredible night vision that their eyes really are are built for that nighttime activity. So adults are walking around stumbling through the dark on a moonless nights. I just, but I I really don't argue that one like a guy, has a data networks for him. The thing I'd say, though, tools guys say. While my observations on my trail cameras, I nursey any kind of good activity during certain hours. on certain days. The moon. I think that relates to the scientific rigour, is all they worry have guided us scientifically. Modeling guy. That can put us data together and really cross check that stuff. As I stood that kind of scientific rigour, I doubt it because most bizarre junior down of god came down and put a gun to your head and said do phases matter, not. Then you had as it has we ve yes or no I'd, say no

I don't see why I just go hunting. I just go hunting burke, footnote age cause well. The thing is have to. I have to tell you. This is one of the pet's favorite subjects. What phase the rut we're in that inside joke with him and I for years, because we have some mutual like well a friend of his acquaintance of mine, who, just like it get on the same page with these dear and what what phase of the rally was so in the I'll contact, pat every once in a while, and just ask him what phase of the rut do you think we're so movement moving the anecdote. What's your take what you take on lunar phases, Doug. just like our personal observations, please ignore what it was like anything. You read this because you like to pay attention to dear. and whose shooting dear when and what and how and in I really don't even have an opinion about it, because I The same way I see dear

what should we do? A little shining in the fall will see it as a deer, lying and fields. You know at one when you can shine. You know before ten o'clock at night and I always think, you're too is based waymore and what the weather ice, to say something in an Ask me? Oh yes, or no, a gun to your head question, but god with a gun, god with a gun, go what need a gun gotta, just we! He has its I know you serious my my my big thing when it comes to the rut, is that the daytime temperature of the daytime temperatures above above forty five degrees. That's when I get bummed out like, oh god, I won't be moving as muchness. This is for him to get a heavy coat on, as I think the weather is more of a Bigger pets, unit, you're air, tat man, much much more than lunar. Now let me ask you one last one. does camel matter another target just like I want you to give me sort of

could you stay up on the on the research? So not like personal experience. like from year assessment of the research. Water, dear c and cale mad like what's it's the current, fashionable feeling that the thing I wrote this recently about camel. basically in colors and I could get the whole collar. Visual can dear seen colours and Biggest thing by far is movement does Mare what you're a few move make any kind of sudden jerky movement dear or just saw tuned in to to movement in a half, but I think it's like a three hundred and ten degree area that can see that out see real real, great above them, which we most was no, Why do they get both lot walk round? Looking at I do they do, but but but I'm a grown up and be like causes, somebody's gonna looking up and the treaty of lisbon, but regime

but that was what we do you know about camel. Is that if you're going to choose a camel that, but I've been reading on this, is that dear dear ken, seek shades of grey? and saw the lighter shades gray and the letters tend to think through there and the be to certainly not burn the can the darker hues let the camel that has a lot of lot of law. Tanned LA like raise I'd avoid those. The the coup you camel. That's meant to look like you're, laying on a gravel bar. That's a lot of light. Greys yeah, I guess like where I hunt I'd, probably go with the darker stuff, is what I'm saying but I m done by out there there's environments, for I thought I would still say. If I to give anybody advice terms We are at a common sense and you think that you think the search bears out well. What

research has shown that they're not on some whole other jerry terrorism hall. There could cause you're theirs there came out about birds, birds have lotta iridescence in their feathers and, like people start, I think that one, a bird sees a bird it's iridescence, it's and this whole other level that you can't even begin to think right like right. What a turkey looks like to a turkey or what what this of head do green pairs results on the research. As Where he sees when he sees, that thing is that he doesn't see anything like what you see here is a completely different experience for him to see that brought us see. I remember when I first came up to some the gorilla good color vision, research back about ninety ninety one thing: it was the first thing doktor carr miller from the university georgia put on the screen was a picture of buck dressed up as a hunter. Yellow law orange had on heads and class lawn and the point here, to start off his talk about what dear seizes until we can somehow tap into that animal's brain

She see what information at present is the eye into the brain and how he's perceiving that we'll never know for certain exactly what they're seeing because their capabilities are so much different from ours. Like you've read about a a deer's nose, for example, being a human knows it. I guess I think we have about five million set receptors at our nose. A dear has three hundred million tuna to eighty three a million sent receptor saw sent to us compared with a as is irrelevant. that's right and that we can begin to comprehend that dears picking off all the error- and I think this prize things with their vision to that from from what we know you get back to your question about what what does research show about the camel, while the research can't allow anyone to Legon in the research as far as trying to match a power, how different cameras work in different environments, because how would you do that the best they can do as they've done this?

This frees her to eat again a university of georgia will air this dust test set up to show the deer color. There's an an lighted, colors overfeed bins to choose a wrong color. The feed been more open, feed fiend bill feed been shots well over time. They get these dear train when they guessed right than a fine colors which which colors they can identify to know that last for the food will be. And what they found there was that these lighter, lighter shades of green and and and white those come in a later colors. and abilities discern was pretty well knew anything I say like it, there's like blue and purple next, each other than they can sign up, but they but adhere to their dirty, their blue ability to see Lou again blows hours out of the water. We can't begin to comprehend. How will this does that her, like what I've read your guys, you're saying like like it's, is that? One thing is certain, don't wear boy

and what you again like beggar insane earlier, though- and this is just this anecdote about space off a ton of like a lot of personal experience- ok, oh well! I guess I like jack ass, On t v guy shit, but a lot of personal experience that I have had things come up when you not moving come up and they just can't they? This can comprehend you or there looking this that predators mouth, the looking that are not putting together- that's a threat but their curious about what you're looking at so they like, not that I see it I do see something out another. I see a person or a threat as he suddenly I don't understand, looking at you burnett nor fear, there's like they see something they haven't seen. While like seeing it's gotta, be witnessing like a collection of colors or collection of shapes, this unfamiliar cause coming toward it ears, perked, for

were coming at. You just be like the hell's that our curious to say my dear globes trail games so yeah that thing now three eggs on the nose for and they go out, to below what is it? You know that I've seen em ice to hunt north west material for dear, quite often backup in them in the nineties in and late nineties, early tooth. Cousins and it's my place where seen this I the biggest the book I most products as a hunted. I killed Was up in ontario and nineteen ninety five and that buck was looking at me for the longest time until I think he looking at me for a long time before. I actually saw him, because I was on this. Precipice. Looking this valley below me, that is recent. Clear cut me of a ten year old, clear cut, and I looked up and the jack pines across me. Both If I guards away- and I saw the haunch of a deer- I thought that's gotta be a dear al- looked but as alina third dearer

Alec seven days I got my scope up the news of deer, and it was any doubt about that and I thought that's a buck and would be ready to shoot sorry doug does those has shown in trigger hand, but I make it story short like a shot I got. I got that scope up at deres, looking right at minute. It looked like the way he was looking at me as, like he's perma watch me for awhile and curious curious. Why what the hell that over there, because I often see many humans in that particular area, and I kill them in about two years later. A similar thing happened to my buddy night. This guy named bruce renta, ignore Nora ontario, we're moving on this. This old granite face looked across northern these big opening up and top right not just like you rose on the ground which you ve literally did this book stands up. This looks at us, didn't run off,

a typical deer around here would do just stood. There looked ass and I had time right. Why didn't it wasn't like? I took my time, but I hit the ground and got my rifle up and shut them off to have a prone position and nail them, and he went down So I thought, as twice have had box in these areas, that a hunter very often this look me over other curious, No, they don't do their networks but what they smell now, exactly they never question. There knows now. That's I think that take that one of the bank, why don't you know, outdoor com is not only their keys if the stories I want to know why you're most proud of that arc is because of it cause it just cause that shitty conditions- it was a really tough hunt, is residing at eight days a hunted and I was, I was fond determined not to leave till I put on my for time.

going in that some day. I d seen one dearer distance word snore I have one little book I passed up the first day, which I is not going to go away to ontario and should have for corn. So I let it go, but I got the wonder I knew I was done with my final afternoon. I want more more into goal and I know the reason I was proud of it because I remember wasn't a big old fatty. It was is a big bulk. You have into forty dressed out. She had a beautiful cathedral type racked surreal, tight thirteen inch and a half in spread beautiful deer and what was it like when things as proud of to knowledge? The fact- and I persevered through that kind of tough hunt and a gap in the spot, and it's like two o'clock neff neumann- is actually one fifty one fifty naf new next I looked my watch at reckon, Adam, and I was looking around and I thought this a cool spot. I may come back here tomorrow morning and I had one of these,

well gps units from the original gps units at lawrence made or bought at the toll them, and they had these. He had a criminal, big cargo pocket, lock, nuts bought in and then, as I step little button number that will snap. I thought that was loud and I thought it was a quiet day like today. I thought before I budge a bear, look around real carefully before a budget, a thought I looked around and see the heart. I kill him. I thought in our so often you can you do occur thing you get. You look really got down. Couldn't gotta go thou, my laureates. I think that now that's from the beauties of beautiful things by hunting is those a little odd twist like that yeah for all. I know just because I stopped long enough what I'm thinking happened when I'm back, I backtracked a button. The snow is, all clay came down off this hill, I butchered by the time I was playing around that gps unit came at the last spot. I think what stopped him was at that snap.

No, I snapped the he looked across and saw me and I'm meanwhile looking down here scanning the sudden areas, I shoot him and say, but listing all well the things that we always write off as one hunter skills and a lot of times, just you or use you got them because you stayed alert, but you also gone because by a fluke you know that in the button, and I was right to say that dear hadn't siena works if you are speculating that he hadn't seen a human before, and you are on this precipice that might have been a spot that was familiar with and he goes that doesn't belong there So since he didn't feel you were a thread, he's just stand and inaccurate gone and I wasn't moving like Steve said it so does. It alone is interesting. Deadly been forged, hang on areas where you can save

We assume they have never encountered a human and it's just it's a different experience. Is they know that the way that high pressure animals react to humans is a learned behavior, you know the the other that goes into this too. As far as on, why it maybe look at me it that long without arm fleeing, You came on where your head to a hot, pink that the cars at that distance, that I was probably hundred twenty five yards away in smoke from from the best guests of researchers, can make on dear vision. They figure the dearest visions private bought the equivalent of our twenty one hundred vision that what we don't know. That means, if he had like twenty twenty visions. Perfect good visit me are really good human vision. They figured the years, but twenty one hundred that what we see clearer at one hundred, they see

how's it work, and basically I can't I'm not good at explaining stuff, but is it worse or better? No, it's worse. Twenty twenty one hundred is far worse than ours in its the price become a blurry image at that range at one hundred yards that they probably make it up as not real sharp, like are a gout, a really sharp vision like me. Wearing glasses at one hundred yards I can see I can make things out, pre, fine detail and the best research they've done now recently that Carl Miller will say. If I get down the camo patterns, you could probably do really well as just a blurry pattern. Not not the needle is fine details cause dear cancer, find details anyway, gotcha. yeah you anything you want to add merits onawandah had not yet there is we're gonna talk le, possibly about to leave the movement to legalise

sailed dear me, my we all know hidden yeah yeah, it's ethically. I feel you wrote a thing I did it. You wrote a thing kind of like oh yeah, you know could be cool, maybe not. What I did is I will that pistol. When I read the memory you Tom ina kissed each steve, Steve sent me. I remember I was somewhere. I was like out of town somewhere and I read that and I was like god, damn pat durkin, and I remember you writing me said something like to see an I totally disagree with that advertising, which I didn't on that path I really I really like that. I dont my people disagree with me. I just figured with mrs tomorrow, you probably wrote it in this big heyday when everyone thought that across the country the weirdest can have more and more and more and more dear well at which is like

turkey's ojala turkeys, let's start shooting hands and kill them year round, and my interest in it was what would trigger my interest in it. In all seriousness was I was. I was visiting my daughter who was stationed at the navy hospital in naples, ITALY and we went to wept. We spent a Intelligent florence sources, two thousand thirteen. We were displayed neat restaurant in florence and there in the menu it says for rum, is for venison and for pork that did these meets. During the hunting season are fresh fresh from that day, it's the season. They're frozen game, I thought was kinda cool. You can actually get you know. You know hunter killed. That media is called the european model of the skull european model, and so I don't think so.

But all about american history, yeah, alright, the brits and robin hood, but for that got me thinking, know that I just come from sweden. I've been up in stock. And up in stockholm and in sweden, people up there. It's that the thing that they do They don't. If I want to sell Jani some meat from last year's dear. I could do that in in in in stockholm, in sweden and and beloved, don't mean that they can legally do it, but at laden's still don't put the date, but them they'll take meat and just give it to them as as a gift like like we kind of like what we but, but I I guess my point in that now. Article of the thing I got talking about by intervening in the swedish

tours and some the different people who have worked at impulse systems is that in all, were we kept. We could probably do this, but I'd take out a whole lot of rethinking of the american model and how we do things in america, but at the ours there are certain circumstances, I think, was what maybe the whippet pissed piss you off was that there are areas in this country where we really hard time not endure numbers down and saw if you could give guys financial incentive to knock him down as many suburban areas, but may be, may not be aware deal with this and I s think in some cases vala might be cases where our thinking might have to evolve in that.

and I dunno. If it's to happen anytime soon I'll adult would happen anytime soon, but I guess I'm one thing I liked about the that the the work I did, the that from my workings and talking to people. Sweden, one interesting nugget I found was that seventy percent of of swedes have eaten or eat wild meat every year. Seventy percent of 'em and I've looked around and found some information for our country and the best data I could find are countries about forty two percent of wickens in a typical year will eat some kind of wild animals that's higher than I would have guessed that way lower than that and a again, this new research is perfect as, like we talked about earlier populations. You never know how accurate all that stuff is What I find interesting, how much more though, swedes and pleasure you by few by a hundred killed meat in Sweden, you're paying a real premium price for

so. What that does and in their mind, is that man, you want wild game. European up, pay a price for it, you and but then, but then they put a value on it and that's really bad. About them so that they can get it freely thing all men I scored, and so they really is higher. the of of wild game that I'm not sure lot people in our country share and which worries me not off the track, amtrak there, and I agree that that is the issue. So so that's a upside some things that, if you, when I wrote you that I don't agree with it. It is a couple things I know you're not like a real vocal advocate, If your not flooring right exactly one, I think, did like places the emphasis historically places. It now think they had this permanent problem with high dear numbers, probably will not prove to have a permanent problem. How do numbers agri these things fluctuate wildly.

so they go unlike re right sort of the the to rewrite the underpin meetings of our wildlife conservation success, which is the deep modification wellbeing the media market, hunting which saved and while too try to dress like a temporary problem that by some estimates, is really a problem by rat the you altering how we perceive manage wildlife and America, too seems to me like, like a aqaba, overshot right way too much gun good. So I'm an economy there, dear eyes, reconvene have richly colony, and one of the things that came up as we ve been talking about reducing the dear population was well I'll use one dear and you gonna give me for tags what

We gonna do with that in the donation system doesn't seem to be working that well- and I you know, have a handful of people that I give up that I give venison to AL get to the locker. I mean I generally cut up here for other people, so I'll, take it to the locker and they'll pay the female gone and pick it up, and so at that county deer advisory committee. People, were asking about. Well, how do you, how do you have this list? The people young man in his late twenties. I guess, stands up and says you know what I'll do I'll put it. Spreadsheet, together of people who are, and we can ever as in social media or whatever. It will address that problem by here. Hunters who, or you can sign up and say I'd like to have some venison, but I'm not a hunter, and then we can make. Connection rather than like. You know, feed the hungry those are the things, but given the food, petrol or in addition to that, the great site I've an

so there's the answer resorted to the temporary. Probably I use it all for little bit of philanthropy Another promise you with it is brings in the communication case or the modification wildlife. And then, you're gonna also further commodified access So I should try to look at things off tells us So it was better for hunters. And fishermen and wildlife right. So what when I'm? Looking at you and I could just see that of all the sudden, these dear we're going back to the eighteen, and these navies all over again, we shut off our wildlife and sold it to eastern markets that all of a sudden, the dear oh, my place a real, valuable I'll, be the los, no way that the neighbour kid most my law and all my cousins and shit are gonna come over here and hunt like the old days this go on a pro,

the onward and makes ammonia is doing it and it's gonna eat the same thing all over again man, you shouldn't have written that. Damn article that the dorothy had similar to that that would might prevent what you're describing is that in our country, we're really buttoned down our our our way of doing the things compared to the way. Sweden. Does it where Sweden, let people just walk over and sell something and let it go in our country. Chances are we'd, probably say before commercializing ruggedness pension system guy get this guy did that we can't just let p I started, selling walking up to the chaos bar pure and selling them venison burger. No, not that kind of thing so read they'd, probably be so many different things cause like in sweden in stockholm. From what I understand as a They don't have some big inspection system coming in there and checking that guy's same all. I see us

twenty five dollars a pound or whatever it might be in in Sweden, compared to ground beef, which is a fifth of that or a half of that. I don't think our country would go along with that. I think they'd want that our country likes to have everything so safe everything so perfect new to the point where it drives me. We will never do it in a clean, efficient way anyway. So I just don't think, and I think we're a long ways from having to happen, but I really agree with you that I guess my worry as I look at deer. Are these days I think well, in my lifetime, deer went from virtually low numbers yeah when I started hunting back in the early seventies, early weren't many deer in wisconsin. That point we need to add some many severe hunt. Severe winter is really tough hunting statewide we had seventy one thousand killed

in nineteen. Seventy one will be killed more than with a bow and arrow nowadays and now we're at this time of superabundance, and we have cwd chronic wasting disease moving through this area. We're sitting right now. I I really worry about we're going to be with with the whitetail deer in a in a in a couple: more decades: You know the great conservationists writer Jim passwords says that we used to have a lot of, we used to have a lot of crimes that were committed its wildlife based on its scarcity. He's, is now entering a new thing where we are, we have crimes of abundance, meaning that that the greed comes back in a degree, the greed, the occasion the restrict being of access the oasis. These are all things that word is learning like as a cold sure we're learning how to deal with how good we have it and some time

the responses to this put your arms and it'd, be like mine, mine, mine, daffy, duck so yeah. That was you got anything else. No. That was good. I liked that it was good conversation glad you brought that up on no no engine the whole the two hours we just have that doug. I've got to sit and and listen you guys talk before in fact, the first time that you and I met some of me and urging the the first time that Stephen I met the first person. I call them when Steve came out. Here was a path to say: hey and this guy come and writer you guys get along and- and interesting conversations in as I recall that let cold ass hunt them The idea that first time we did- and so it's the gratifying for me,

sit here and have the folks who followed the podcast and in your shown everything gets vienna, conversations, because I've been involved with several lease with you guys span way back. There will going back to those ten or something their pet unicellular. Dad the autogen an email that day, because I listen to your podcast, something I've listened to every podcast. You guys have produced sixty three of them because I like them- and so I knew not to get caught caught off guard by coming up with a half assed. You know a concluding thought. No, you can't but he came freak of voting as you. You are jumping guys you to say all thanks to you for having me on the thing out but the thing I am harking back to us

The time I've known you is that I really like the fact how you are reaching out to the non hunters this country. The way you operate is just a straightforward. You don't apologize for your hunter? You invite people into your world and showed them what's widen matters and how this matters yonder? The idea that the example you gave me an hour. What about seven years ago, is that when you invite people in your home most fuel, and they don't know what to make of antlers like what we have in this room right now, beautiful they are like unite, can look around this room, We see the differences, the nuances, different antlers or my wife, and, though she's in the hall she doesn't really get into that stuff, but when they can start realising that each one, those dear piazza store each was dear up. There has provided a meat that has been consumed by people in this room.

And outside in their families they understand and less hunting, not so bad name, because you come across the likeable normal person. Thinking intelligent, curing person and destroy always go back to the oil was formative for, for my understanding of non hunters is back in the seventies when we have a strong popular to hitchhike. I've had shy clause first driving a mere picking up a collar, girl, ass, Mary, sixteen years old, dragons, driving and bitter. picture out where you kind of thinking I who knows, She is a little she's, a college girls, so she's order me. I knew I d, never chancellor, why. shy as hell and knows as a teenager. So I never the girls basically, but I remember I pick up Sid shaken down on the? U w mass campus picked her up, and I just come back from hunting out east of town and I had to dead rabbits on the console bit.

In our bucket seats in this old g t o and she looks down This is just to dead, ravaged, lay in their between our seats and she says that it is it does now, because she cheers. Obviously you know she knew someone hunting us and see. I was out hunting up by some prairie and got his rabbits. She is question she asked them with the second question: was I going to eat em oh yeah, olive, eaten rabbits, should all caden It's really, I think, where most people are, if you make use of the animal you kill there they're all fort, and I I always stuck with me that that that woman's question and then knowing as being judged by how I answered it. Luckily I answered it, you know the way she was hoping I'd answer it. I didn't kill those rabbits for joy. Just for the segment but never mind? I am wyoming item our body, the, historian, randal williams of it.

A conversation with number times when he says that he talks about how hunters have persecution, complex area says there are a small minority of americans, smaller minority of americans are vehemently opposed the hunting them vast majority of americans are just in the middle yeah, Then I guess bothered by it. They don't age. In it than the first, in your hair. But in the end you average hunters head. It's like. step against us, and thus I mean the first merging the radio things on gene for rockers

go on NPR. Maybe you remember that yeah and I dunno know who you were, but my wife was listening. One day says his guys to be talking yet on hunting at five o'clock and my expectation as he was at in I've, been around talking about hunting for as a part of my job. For at that point, me five almost thirty years already and I thought a godsmack some guys and get on national public radio and talk. But while we don't hunt the deer, they'll get they'll start starving to get the bells, the popular population and all those kind of trite things that people miss saying for years and not always, but always grind grind me about. That was that, but that's not why you haunt you, don't see yourself as a pest control officer. You don't see yourself as some guys doing the the world a service by being out there. You have because it's fun and you're getting something out of it. That is worthwhile to you personally and I that and I never feel like. I have to explain to people why I hunt because I think well,

just trying to explain to people why I love my wife, that's hard and you soon start ticking all the different things that you loved what your wife have before licensing was trivial, yet guys just use the like the controlling over a bunch like I do it because they overpopulated I'm like. If you went out to the farmers place you huh and said: hey mammy, my bodies working to help you out real concerned about your agricultural practice now understand you got. Any number of problems are here help you most fire naturally like sun thing, most from you, is to go out and hunt them box, no figure we like grab shovel. I got just the thing for your boys figure to help me out. Is this most fun things of life that happen once while you? So I listen radio and get your ears.

it was done in your interviews, done. I said to my wife, her guy's pretty smart. I liked that and then I promptly forgot your name and I then and then about it, couldn't have even been a couple later, Doug, let's be know that you're coming out here and I finally start to connect That's the guy heard on public radio show at one day and then I go, and I have read your books and I said in my life you got very disguised books so that this you'll, like this and my wife, penny she's from new jersey, she'd, never she'd, never family jewish people had never met one hunter in their life till I came into their life and to to your observation about people's attitudes. They didn't have an attitude toward hunters because they didn't know hunters, never foreign concept of them already. What would you think about hunters in hunting and saw when they saw this guy? coming in the into their world and they see pictures of their pregnant daughter out in the garage. Helped me cut up a deer. I think they thought that was kind of

for new nuclear saw imo boring shit happens every day. Some some guy comes in cuts dear Europe's one, yes an end, and that the and the funding to us, I think they could relate to it because pennies mother, good jewish name like goldie. She was still in those days gone in in new york city, going to fish market bringing home for fish like bigger than your bluegills out here today,. got gotten them and clean them and and doing all the things that make them ready cause. They understood that you know that this is an off. Not all food in new york comes in and in and in rappers. You know you got to yourself, so I I thought that for me and now I opening experience where I got to meet people who didn't, hunt and didn't you if you go out to those people start acting as us against them or their definite turned off them

yeah. I did the thing what the hell's, your fear and I didn't realize that we were in a fight, but can be aware that we are of pissing yeah exactly but end. You can't blame him. If someone comes after them, it makes them feel inadequate for for not caring about their particular activity or anything. What kind of bullshit set us making pretty good concluded? Thank you. make very much now, I often in my old age. I tell people like if you like, like jerry if you like to read someone's work, you know you'll want to meet him whenever you like, you, don't live out right now, lives up to them. Selves on the page, and I have been fortunate, the ring to me a lot of writers. I really admire and use you walk away from wishing to added have her, but I like when you and having no news long overdue, because it's fun

to have the experience which has me often to be data, go catch, my girl, and I'll be reading it. I'm like. Oh, that's, interesting and I'll be reading it and I'm like got a good night and I'm like fucking pet. I love that I thank you now loving it that as their cup dear Sellen thing, I didn't put it together right away because, like you know like most yeats, what writers get pissed. If people don't look at who wrote something like when you buy a movie, do you go like or what product? What studio movie out? It's like mostly like don't, engage things that way novels are different, but like just reading, when you read them, a bunch of magazine article in a magazine, so and times back check like I'll, be impressed the substance in execution like who wrote this dirk and now I'm the same way outta the article pursing when so when someone like last week, I was

I do. I do some running articles to now for the green bay newspaper really euralia and they run around run down yeah. I dunno. Why? But late life? I've discovered running, and I wrote the psoric last week about I'm. Basically the importance a strong core which basically has everything from your crotch up to your neck. If you don't have a good, strong, core, good, strong but eyes kind of things, you can't you can't be much of a runner you gotta, get in shape for spoofing beep become a decent runner. While I wrote this article, I thought was pretty good doggy paying attention more than I but then I thought I'd server, two sprinting internet, but I got a pair of eyes, about those that I about a week goes by, but I'm talking to a guy who is actually getting my my my arm my running.

Tried analyzed by a real roll em analysis donna, because I was having injury problems. I thought I'm gonna, I'm gonna end this stuff once and for all immune or stop being injured, I'm trying to figure out what what I'm doing wrong and whatever and the skies tell me this great article. He read their day that really liked it points to the core. Or the road ass. If I wrote that you ve got your that, as you know, if he's my name's imports, not five percent and I gotta feel good yeah feels great and I'd be lying. If you know what, but imagine he said like you know, there's just so much misinformation out there, pat just matter of fact, It is the I've had that happen, so yea who late in life jogging Jackie exactly goes killed kinds of innocent. What I have to know he's saying yeah, there's gonna be like that that more than any other reason is the reason why we try to do good work. Not ship were at that

That's one thing I always tell ya: I get getting by to speak to college classes once in a while and it and my my and my daughter's eastern volunteer me for various class projects to come and talk to people The point I always made about writing cause. It's a very visible craft, is that you never know who's reading. You so make everything you write your best effort, don't just do a half assed effort, and but I think that applies to anyone in any any job. You never know who's watching and saw it to me when I write. Why should I write? I always figured at some point. Some wasn't a pickup that newspaper pick up that magazine. I've read it enough to attempts to people don't like it. You can't expect people to read by alliance just going straight into the article if you don't capture them. The first couple of paragraphs throughout their aunt never looked to see who wrote it and- and let's you see, people yourself none. I did the same thing all read the article. If it's really good all look at

im lot of times you won't recognize, but don't you see that name two or three times it starts sinking in you and so that so it has to be not only good one time but good every time and at some times topics don't interest people We did not find I easy. My my wife doesn't read everything I read either while worst mistake I made my writing career is bought. Thirty years ago I asked my wife one time what she thought of a column. I wrote and she hear us response- was you've written, better yeah I'd. Never I've never asked her since then what she dominating I've written but a lot, She told me all I like to call them today, whatever it might be, but it's still stumbling and read it. Yeah, like I am now my news. A newspaper column appears in our local newspaper now, so she sees it, but it's delivered to the door yeah. Every sunday morning she sees my my my smelling gap to open.

these requirements. Thank you, family were to have you back talk more about you know What do you do when it's moon when is mooney out? Well save your pains of change that isn't going, doesn't tell you. Last year I met when I set about the way you're handling yourself that that dot. The final final, I'll make, and that is that a final conclusion. Twenty five years ago I but including concluded the content years ago, is basically the whole idea that we don't. We do not have any hunters altered talking, huntings behalf who are famous for being hunters and I think I look round now. I see guys like you, rummy worn Rennie Newberg

we are making their mark out there, because they they had got into a certain stage in life, stating their careers were the recognizes as smart hunters who are doing something for not just hunting but overall conservation efforts, and you guys meet people who prove can communicate dollar people outside our little sir quotes of of hunters, look guys like Joe rogan, and I don't listen to Joe's podcast as cheerfully as a listener years. It's because they're so long and I'm I'm always running from one topic to the next. I think cause, those kind of contacts you establish a new network with and you enjoy the smart people who can spread and reach an audience that we as I can't reach, and I think we should appreciate that. you guys for doing that, and I really sit up with guinea on deep sincerity. So thank you. Man very kind of you, but ass best, including that take a porter doug extend to go to a conclusion that they like,

The concluding of good Well, that's why I don't seriously pass because I would have to seriously thanks for coming out man. Thank you. Now we're going to have you back to talk more about all the stop size fun. Ladies and gentlemen, pat durban, find his writing slip up an internet. I understand TAT Working cannot doors, no final, the or open here if you live in, was gathered in the newspaper. Comes bang up against your screen door, open it up and see how the hell you yes, support local journalism, s ass molly, my best wishes for people and I ve been michigan, go figure out a watershed. You take her