Hey, Daily Wire listener. I'm here to invite you to Nashville's event of the year, Courage Under Fire. Join Matt Walsh, host of The Matt Walsh Show, his wife Alyssa, and some of the most influential leaders in the conservative movement for a night of encouragement and camaraderie on May 24th. Courage Under Fire. The modifier will feature top leaders in the Catholic Church, Pro-Life Movement, and other cultural initiatives sharing in the true, the good, and the beautiful. Matt Walsh will be speaking alongside Dr. Abby Johnson on how to have courage and stand up for the truth no matter what adversity you face. Will truly be a night of connection and inspiration. Plus, all proceeds from the gala will directly benefit students in need of tuition assistance at Regina Caeli Academy, the premier classical homeschool hybrid for Catholic families. Access to live music and an exclusive meet and greet with guest speakers. If you haven't grabbed tickets yet, time's running out. For tickets, visit Courage Underwear. Under fire gala dot org and use code daily wire at checkout. That's courage under fire gala dot org code daily wire. We hope to see you there. - Sitting here with Paul.

Who is a pro-life activist who was recently arrested, charged, and convicted by the Biden administration. Of violations of something called the FACE Act. And we're gonna get into all of that, including what the FACE Act is. But first, Paul, thanks for joining us. - No bad, thanks for having me. Before we get into all the details here, how have you been and what I'm sure is an extremely trying time for you and your family? Sure. You know, we've been ups and downs, right? It's not every day someone gets convicted and brought in the federal court system. So it's a new ground for us, if you will. I imagine. What about your family? React it's all those what's yeah, I mean it's it's brought us closer together right there You're when you get drawn into a battle and it brings the relationships stronger makes - We all depend on Christ more and that's where we're at. - So this protest happened back in 2021, correct?

And so let's just begin by kind of setting the stage. What was the protest? And also what was your specific involvement in it? Sure, well I'm president of Personal at Tennessee, and so we're a life advocacy organization that does a lot with... Pro-life ministry, but also all facets of life, across humanity, across every stage of life. Part of our ministry is a sidewalk counseling out of abortion clinics. So we would go out and offer literature and help two young ladies, you know, in a situation where they might need an abortion or if they need an abortion. They need an abortion and try to help them. So on the day in question that's what we were doing. Kerifen is a little bit different. It is not accessible outside. It's in a public building. Multi-clinic. Building. So we were in the hallways, the public hallways that day, offering help to moms seeking abortion. And what does that look like?

Yeah, usually just engaging in a conversation, asking, you know, obviously there's... In that particular hallway, there's only the abortion clinic, so you know pretty much what they're doing if they're coming down that hallway. and then just-- Asking if they know that there's other options available. Do they understand the ramifications and the dangers of what they're doing? has not been a highly moral industry where they, you know, give a... Give clear warnings and market labeling, as it were, to the dangers and the risks associated with abortions. And then certainly the post-abortion traumatic stress syndrome and the things that go along with abortion. To make sure they have all the facts, let them know that people are there to help them, that sometimes it, usually abortion seems like the only way out, it's the last option, kind of a solution, you know, a terminal solution. And we try to let them know that there are other options out there and there are people that, strangers that they don't know, they're willing to help them and be there for them.

Actions do you typically get from the women that you engage with? Sure, I mean, it's across the board, right? I mean, it's a highly emotionally charged time in that person's life, and some-- in tears and oh thank God I didn't know anyone cared and some respond with cursing and violence and you know anger and you know being Frustrated that they feel like you're being called out on the, you know, participating in abortion. And if you get the latter response, the cursing and the violence, how do you respond? respond to that? Sure. I mean, it's always in a defensive offsetting, trying to tampen down the situation and calm it down. So we obviously don't ramp up and cuss back and holler and scream. Understand you're upset. We just wanted to make sure you knew there are options, and we're here to help. And just anything we can do to tone it down and try to help.

You know, at the end of the day, they're not mad at me. They're in a hard situation. And so we go, we did sidewalk training classes where we've gone into churches and taught how to deescalate things, how to bring things down, what kind of people you'll see at the clinic, and what you can expect. And so we cover all this in our training extensively and different models, different assessments, and things to do when you're dealing with that situation. How long have you been doing pro-life work? Gosh, since early 90s, 93 I suppose. Now I'm sure you're familiar with the sort of the stereotype of pro-life pro-lifers in general, but especially those who show up outside the clinics and usually the stereotype is Screaming and yelling at the women and telling them they're going to hell and that sort of thing. Sure. In my experience, I don't have as much experience as you do, but in my experience with pro-life protesters, I don't think I've ever seen that, but that's not, sounds like that's not your experience.

Well, it's certainly not something we do. And to be clear, there are always people that are out there that usually they're rogue, they're not associated with the church, they don't have any actual training. Or any, you know, they, you know, a lot of times they're post-aborted themselves and they feel guilty. And so there are... People that come out there. They're more aggressive, more rebuking. And certainly not the Spirit of Christ that we believe actually helps people. Those people are out there, they're certainly a minority, and it's something that the pro-abortion side latches onto and tries to make it like it's the majority of folks, and that's just simply not true. So... Going back to that day in 2021, you said this was a clinic that was inside an office building? Yes. It's a multi-tenant facility. So there was dentist office, massage therapist, and all kinds of other tenants in the building along with the abortion clinic, which was Kerafin Clinic.

Activists were out in the hallway? Correct. And you were out in the hallway as well? I was, yep. What happened that particular day? Did the police show up? Sure. So... The first thing is the security guard walks down the hall and tells us we need to leave and the Matt, let me go back just a second as I set it up a little bit. You know, the trespassing is what the charge was that day for the folks that didn't get It was not me. I did not get arrested that day. But in order to be trespassed... For property, the building owner has to tell you you're not welcome. And specifically the property, when it's a multi-tenant dwelling, and the expectation is... That all the public is welcome because of all the tenants that are in the building. So there's the legal framework for, I was operating in that day of having the building.

Manager, building owner, or operator actually telling us we weren't welcome. Did that happen? It did not, actually, ironically. And you see that in some of the interviews after the fact with the police officers going back to the clinic, asking specifically if they-- had the authority to trespass people if the building owner was aware and different things like that in the post arrest interviews that took place. But basically-- What happened is we came into the hallway the security guard came down told us leave he said we're going to call the police so they called the police the first couple officers showed up and you know told us to go out on the sidewalk you can protest on the sidewalk and and the folks that wanted that were going to or risk arrest that day in a rescue fashion. We could talk about that if you want, what a rescue is versus side-walk counseling and different things. But it pointed out. The officer that if they left their position there in the hallway, then that clinic was

and little baby boys and girls were gonna die that day. And they didn't feel morally they could walk away from such a situation. And so that was... That's one element of the day. And like I said, the others were the sidewalk counselors and then the people in the hallway just to pray and to worship and just to lend spiritual support, you know, to the day as well. And which of those categories were you specifically? Yeah, I was, I had sidewalk counseling teams there that I had trained. Counseling specifically. I was interacting, I was certainly praying and singing. And the worship aspect of it. And then primarily my role developed that day, just kind of serendipitously, is when I realized that the police didn't really understand. What was going on and you know think back this was a time of BLM and Tifa and all the violence going on and my The main concern was they're going to think we're some kind of violent group and they're going to come against my sidewalk counselors and start, you know...

Being heavy-handed and dangerous and violent in response. And so I went to talk to them just to assure them that we were a peaceful group. There was no violence. Nobody was going to resist anything. That's how the conversation started with them and developed. From there. You mentioned rescue and there's a distinction between that and sidewalk counseling so what is that distinction? Sure, so back in The late 80s early 90s attacked to develop from the church and it was a multi-denominational effort and understanding of dealing with the dilemma of. If you really believe these unborn children are humans and little boys and girls, then we should act like it. Model do we have and how can we protect them and actually stand in the gap and actually do something rather than just talking about it. Is what's traditionally known as a sit-in in America, right? All protest groups sit in and block something, or they do, you know, to protest the, uh, whatever it may be.

Greenpeace or you know the Jerusalem Gaza stuff that's going on now we see this happening. So it's just basically normal American sit-in protests type thing But with a spiritual additional element, is that the main heart... Of that matter in the rescue movement that we saw arise in. And just so I don't forget, there were about 77,000 Christians arrested in America making Pro-life movement, one of the largest civil disobedience movements in the nation. But the spiritual... Element was not just, Hey, we're here to physically block the doors and shut it down. It was, How do we respond in a Christ-like manner? And what do we see in the model of Christ is that He interposed between us and the one that was coming to destroy our soul. He laid down his own life so that we might have life. And so that's what the church was trying to do.

To sit down at the door and say, Look, I'm willing to go to jail. I believe that baby that you're carrying is valuable enough as a human being that I'm willing to go to jail for the sake of you and that child. Rescue slash sit-in you say sure what you You doing this in yourself personally? - Back in the 90s, I did a couple. In this situation, not at all. And just, man, just, my 11th child is three years old next month. And so she was due like five days after this event. I was very cautious of all the lines to say in so I didn't want to be in jail and risk missing missing our 11th child being born. 11 children. What are the age ranges? From 29 down to three. You have multiples in there, twins? No twins.

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At what point did they start arresting people? - So they came in, you know, you had the first group that showed up and... And they came and talked and like I said, I went back and talked with them, seeing that there were so many people. They called in, you know, there's procedures they follow, right? So if there's a large gathering and a protest or something, they have a policy. Internally that they follow. So they called out the rest of the task force and whoever else was supposed to be there, including the negotiators. And so once the negotiators were on site, we had with us one of the gentlemen that was leading the rescue aspect of it as a former law enforcement officer. Vegas police officer Chet Gallagher, a great man. Loves God, he's been participating in pro-life work is, you know, 30 years or so now. So he was going to speak to the police officers. Because of his background. He actually was confronted with this in his role as a police officer.

When they were doing a rescue in Las Vegas. And instead of arresting the Christians, basically he gave up his job and participated with them. And he felt convicted that that was-- the right thing to do. As a police officer, he tried to report that there was a murder in progress. You know, there's a life at danger here. We need to do something. And the higher Wasn't buying it so he did the thing he felt like he needed to do there. So he and I since I had already talked with police earlier I'm with him to just kind of write his shirttail and listen to the conversation. Like I said, we both had kind of different interests there that day. Primarily one interest obviously saving children but different avenues of what we were planning on doing and what our role was and so we ended up talking with the negotiators and police officers

We just had great conversations with some Christian civil magistrates and talked about Romans 13 and the role of the officers and all that. So it was a good discussion with them. Through that process though, we determined and let them know that not everybody was willing to be arrested, that some were waiting to be trespassed properly to leave, and that others were willing to risk arrest. That they would not resist, that it would be peaceful. And so we kind of negotiated and worked with the police. Their processes to figure out how the arrest would be made and how that would go down. - How many did they arrest that day? - We ended up with, I think it was eight adults and the children weren't actually arrested. They were cited and released back to their parents. - And the charge was trespassing? - The charges, yeah, criminal trespass, typically a class B misdemeanor, and those were dismissed at Wilson County. Why were you not arrested then? Because I obeyed the police when they said it's time to leave. I left. Alright, so that was...

- The 2021, and that's, as far as you know, it's sort of the end of it at that point? - Sure, yeah. Yeah, we went to the jail and sang him. And prayed for the people that were in jail through the weekend waiting to get processed out and they went back to jail. The court date. How long until it was dismissed? It varies because different ones showed up at different times. They didn't all have a mass trial like we did in the federal court. um And then the federal government gets involved. In a big way, yeah. What, I guess at what point did you know that the federal government was looking at your... Yeah, so 715 on a Wednesday morning in October when my house started rattling and I heard the words open up FBI And I don't know about the average American, but that's not something that I see in my common thought process at any time. In the day, let alone at 7.15 in the morning. So they showed up to a rest meeting and we had a big, I mean, that's been, you know, covered a lot, but there was a...

Four armed guards, armed FBI agents in tactical gear, fully armed, long guns, sidearms, vest, everything. Three of my children were outside in the side yard. Like I said, they were about to go to school. And so they were heading out to the car. They were being held, I didn't know at the time, but they were being held out to the side by another agent. With a long gun and wouldn't let them come back into the house. And then, you know, processing everything. That goes through one's head in a situation like that. Prior to this you had... - You didn't even hear any rumblings that the federal government was looking into this? - I tell you that the only rumbling I heard was when they arrested Mark Howick in Pennsylvania. What a sham that was from what little bit I knew of it. Before us and you know with the stuff we've been involved in our whole life being out on the sidewalks and stuff the day and age is coming our country where there's

could come for us. And it was more of a warning to my children coming up in the culture they're going to be living in and what's setting expectations. I had no idea how a week later that that would be true for us. How did your wife and kids react in the moment? Yeah, my wife was awesome. She was sent to get a sweater for me and was cognizant of not having to grab her phone. Enough to on her feet to grab it and come back. And it's so funny the the attitude of those agents were cocky and arrogant. The guy was was taunting my wife and she never got told what they were arresting me for. I didn't get told until we were in the car and I was locked in the car. Um, so they're taunting her. She's asking, why are you arresting? And the agent literally is sitting there doing this little head bob.

You really want to know? And she came out with the camera and it's like, Well, ma'am, I've been trying to tell you. Day and night and you know, unfortunately that you don't have that on video, but that's the that was the attitude at least one of the agents had and and you know, there's four of them. They're all different. They have different, you know, different lives to live and all that. What's going through your head in that moment? Yeah, well, you know, when I pulled the The curtains back and saw the guns pointed at me, the very first thing is the safety of my family. And you go through all the scenarios, you know, of somebody showing up at your door to do harm to your family and what do you do and quickly process that it had to be Politically motivated. I'm not I mean, I'm a local business owner. I've been on the same farm for 15 years on the same business for 11 years. I knew there wasn't anything violent or anything. It had to be political of some sort. and

So I reasoned that the safest thing to do is just put myself in their hands and surrender myself for the sake of my family. And that was, you know, a thousand thoughts in about three milliseconds kind of process. You said that only once you were in the car they told you what you're being arrested for. What did they say? I asked for a warrant at some point, and under whose authority, they're arresting me or whatever, and the cocky eyes point and says, Little Velcro badge, this is all the identification you get, kind of thing. But fortunately, I was able to get the warrant. I didn't ride back to Nashville with him. I rode with two of the other agents. And he said... You know, here's the warrant if you want to see it. And they pulled it up on a laptop. And of course I didn't have my glasses or anything else. All I could see is face in bold letters. I'm like, okay, well it's pro-life related. So at that point I had to at least. And understanding that it was pro-life related, I still had no idea it was that particular event or anything. Eve, I thought that when you get arrested, they have to tell you why. Yeah. Is that not a... You know...

Thing? When the guys have guns and attitude and don't want to tell you, who's going to make them? And that's really what it comes down to. I guess I would throw it over to you, Steve, and you're Paul's lawyer, correct? Yes. And you're with the Thomas Moore Society? Correct. Just the process of getting arrested here. I'm trying to understand the law. I know based on what I see in Law and Order, they give you Miranda rights. They tell you what you're being arrested for. And that didn't happen here? Are entitled at some point. It doesn't have to be immediately when they're taking you into custody. The interesting thing here, Matt, is in the Mark Hout case, for instance, which our firm handled, we're in communications with the US Attorney. Office saying we're happy to bring him in voluntarily, you know, let's do this civilly and so forth. This is the classic nonviolent civil disobedience right now.

Frankly, it never should have involved feds at all. This is clearly and purely a local matter. So in this case, you've got pro-life... Folks that were involved from all over the country, different FBI offices handling the arrests. Was the only one subject to this SWAT team kind of thing. So our inference is. This was a decision made locally to really send the terrorism kind of message, Don't mess with the feds. - We, so the Mark Alka case has come up a couple times just so the audience knows. He was a pro-life protester in... Philadelphia I believe and the case there got into an altercation with an abortion worker Time, if I remember correctly, charges are dropped. - Correct. - And then the Biden administration circles back to him. - Yes. - Just like they did here. But what do we make of that?

that they're, you've got these cases that are thrown out locally, it's not a big deal. And then what is the Biden administration doing? Are they combing through the books looking for lifers? - I think that's exactly what happens. Remember, this is 2021. Parkhous incident also well before the magic date in all of this is June 2022 with the Dobbs decision overturning Roe against Wade. In his administration, he issues executive orders. They form up a reproductive rights task force. It comes to the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ and says basically war on pro-lifers. Combing through the records for these peaceful events that had occurred years before and swoop in basically to make up a PR statement against pro-life activism. The ostensible reason for the arrest when you were given it was you said the FACE Act. Right. I guess I would have to...

You first what what is your understanding of what the FACE Act is? Sure so FACE is and and the reason I knew that because it's in bold letters because it's the acronym for the Act which is the freedom of the access to clinic entrances. And so back in the 90s, because of these pro-life-- Were being successful, the federal government decided it needed a way to shut it down. And so basically what... The FACE Act did is it took a Class B misdemeanor local protest charge to a felony. First offense, six months in federal prison, second a year or more. Steve's with no more of the details there. But that's basically what its purpose was. And how it was designed. And Steve, my understanding of the FACE Act does... Doesn't it also or isn't it supposed to also protect pro-life pregnancy centers? Yes. So...

As often happens in Congress, they had to have some Republican support to get this thing through. Teddy Kennedy is chef... Converting it through in the Senate. And as they reach across the aisle, one of the bones they throw to the Republicans is, Protect houses of worship and pro-life pregnancy centers too. So it's like this tag-on provision. In the FACE Act, but it was always about abortion. That's what led to, as Paul said. You know, that 77,000 Christians coming out and actually engaging at the clinic entrances. That led to the need for the feds, so they thought, to get involved in the first place. Never been used. The Department of Justice doesn't have any kind of guidance on how to approach houses of worship issues and so forth. And as you... Probably aware Matt, since the Dobbs decision and even after its argument.

Let alone its release in June, hundreds of churches' pro-life pregnancy centers have been... Firebombed, vandalized, you know, Molotov cocktails thrown in there, all this stuff. There have been a total of, I think, four arrests under that. Family Research Council just last week released a report regarding acts of hostility against churches and houses of--this is just the churches, not the pregnancy resource centers. 315 incidents in 2023 alone. They're not interested in the churches and in the pro-life pregnancy centers. Has anyone been prosecuted under the FACE Act as far as you know? For? Yes. We started crying foul after these arrests. They went out and arrested a couple of folks in Florida, I believe it was. So they have made a kind of paper effort at doing it. But what the class--

Response of Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI was, when asked about Why aren't you prosecuting these guys? He goes, Oh, those incidents occur at night. We don't know how to find those people. It's impossible to see him at night. I can't see him. What are you going to do? Tell me about... So you get to trial and what is that experience? Sure, well first off, we're on parole basically. Waiting on the trial. So we're reporting in every month. Our salary, we can't move. I specifically can't travel out of the Central District of Tennessee. I got to call in and answer all the questions and just have permission to go anywhere basically. So we're on parole the whole time leading up to the trial. Test getting to the trial. And then we get in and we get to seat a jury.

Pre-trial the week before whatever and get to the jury and get started on the trial. Did you feel, how did you feel going into the trial? Did you feel confident? Did you feel like the deck was stacked against you? How did it feel? It was a strange feeling. I did not, and I think I even told Steve this from the beginning, I didn't feel like we'd see justice in the trial court just because... Of what little bit of knowledge I have of the judicial system and the rules of evidence and the political nature of the charges, I was hopeful. And there were things in the trial that led us to hope, you know, that maybe it's going a good direction. But I was not shocked at the verdict basically. How many total people was it that was... Well... So in the federal charges, there were seven of us that were charged with conspiracy and four that just had the Misdemeanor Face Act.

And so the conspiracy is the other piece of this we hadn't really got to yet. The conspiracy act... And Steve will have more of the technical legal details, but basically it's the KKK Act passed in the late... 1800s that was used to stop people being violent against black people when they were trying And so they used this same conspiracy and said that it's a conspiracy against rights secured by the Constitution or the laws of our nation. And so literally the rights that are secured now that Dobbs has fallen is the rights found in the FACE Act, which is the right to access a reproductive health center. Abortion. Steve, what can you tell us about the conspiracy against rights? Yeah, look, as Paul said, Matt, this is a statute passed with one specific intent after the Reconstruction.

Period. And so it was never really used outside of that actual constitutional right setting until this whiz kid who tried... Case in Washington, D.C., Sanjay Patel wrote an article in 2022 for the Department of Justice and he said, Hey, here's the statute maybe we can use in this context with face, too. So, FACE was passed in 1994 until 2022. This Actually, no conspiracy charge was ever attached to a face case. So the way it is, we've got a first defense face violation, maximum six months in prison. Conspiracy here, this conspiracy against rights, brings ten years. So this is piling on its A never-before-used context. And it's against, ironically enough, civil rights, a conspiracy against...

Right statute that's used to punish civil rights in the peaceful civil disobedience of Christians. Also, just from a technical legal perspective here, didn't the Supreme Court just... Find that you don't have a constitutional right to abortion in the first place. So how can this be a... How do they explain it? How can this be a conspiracy against rights that the Constitution... I mean, really, aren't we through the looking-glass in a way here? So, this clinic is no longer in existence. Abortion in the state of Tennessee, as we sit here today, is itself a felony. Were doing in 2021, they should be rewarded for today, right, if these practices were going on. But it isn't until. Tennessee enacts, or the trigger law goes into effect, an abortion becomes a felony here, that they ever bring these charges. We have argued till we're blue in the face. With the trial judge and we will argue on appeal that just as you said that abortion is no longer a recognized federal constitutional right the only

that they're hanging this by is a very, very thin thread of access to reproductive health services. So the right to go in and get an ultrasound is what they're claiming is the federal right that gives some kind of status jurisdiction for bringing these. Felony charges. Is that a recognized federal right? It is. It's in the FACE Act. Here's what happens, okay? Three, they introduce face and they just say outright, It's abortion services we're talking about. But as it works its way through... And the clever lawyers work it over, they go, Oh, no, let's not call it abortion rights. Let's call them reproductive health services. Because it just sounds nicer. It's a nice euphemism. So it includes termination of pregnancy, but it also includes these birth control and so forth rights. So there is, as we sit here, because the FACE Act has not been repealed, on the books, a right to access reproductive health services other than abortion.

No one in the history of the United States, I think, has ever protested the right to access ultrasound. It's always been about abortion. So it's, you know, it's a fig leaf is really what they've got here. With the reproductive health services language. - And how do they, in your specific case, given that you weren't even arrested at the time by the police. How did they deal with that? How did they explain that? Did they? Yes, so we had one defendant that turned state's evidence on us. I said there were seven, so there was only six in the trial. She cut a deal and she gave all kinds of wonderful testimony about how one of the roles of the rescuers, those blocking and committing face violations, was to have a police distraction, Now, this person testified in the courtroom. She didn't know me before the day of the event. She initially thought I was a police officer or a chaplain.

Testimony against me is what they had that and along with a picture of me standing in the hallway against the wall not a door, but you know working on my phone while while people were talking one of our sidewalk crew was talking to Client there. Do we know what kind of deal she got for that? Oh, yeah, she goes to sentencing in April, I believe Thank you. And your sentencing is when? July 2nd. And it's already been stated you've technically faced up to 10 years in prison? Ten and a half, so six months for the face and 10 years max for the conspiracy. Maybe you don't want to speculate, but do you... Well, what do you think is going to happen? No idea. and I think that's It's in the judge's hands. The judge has full discretion to do this. Here's the secondary piece of that. The judge also can decide whether I stay out of jail while we appeal or whether.

To go to jail during the appeal. And so that's completely in her hands. You know, I know this, as a Christian, God says, The heart of the king is in his hands, and he will do what he wills. I'm willing to abide by whatever he does because he's writing the story and if that story... Takes me to jail for a time for his benefit and his glory. And that's part of the story I'm content to submit to that. I hope it's not, my family hopes it's not. We'd love to actually see justice in a court of the Department of Justice, but we're just waiting to see. How are you feeling in the run up to the sentences? If I was in your shoes I would be just overcome with rage all the time I think. At how ridiculously unjust this is. And also the fact that everybody involved in this prosecution must... Know how ridiculous this is from the FBI agents who arrested you all the way up to everybody.

And sort of knowing what a farce this is and everyone's going along with it would make me just... Boiling with rage all the time you don't seem like a boiling with rage to your credit but sir i mean You know, you certainly get upset because one of the attributes of God is justice and you want to see justice. It's natural for us to desire that. But I also know that God works through injustice to make changes. And through this, and I'll just say this, it's not me, God's grace arises to us. The occasion and that's what I would always tell the Sidewalk counseling team. If you wanna see God move and see an abundance of grace, put yourself at risk. Step out on a sidewalk and engage in a conversation that might be uncomfortable for you and allow God to use you and work. And so I'm getting tested on that, I guess, Matt, is the big picture here. is You know, we have, he's allowed us to see our national character through this case, I think.

Three different stop gaps in the system as you mentioned the FBI agent could have certainly done a better job and a more personal professional job. At making the arrest or refusing that order if they had the details, the judge could have refused to allow it in her courtroom. She's one of the constitutional stopgaps that we have for justice. If somebody is bringing in a false charge in a ridiculous trial, then you're just-- has the ability to say no. And certainly the prosecution that was charged with bringing the case by their superiors could have said, No, I'm not doing this. And then we come Down to the 150 jury panel that we selected our jurors from, and we got to interview them and talk about their character and where they stand. And I think what we see is a, you know, it's been said that in order to maintain freedom, it's a labor, you have to work at it.

And I think what we see in our national character is A, we are a nation of convenience, not convictions and we don't do the hard work that it takes to maintain liberty and freedom. Like knowing what a jury's duties are, like understanding right from wrong and good and evil. And so that's part of the challenge we have. And I think if God wants... To tell that story and show that to us and allow us to have that conversation publicly. Risk a little bit. I'm thankful for the opportunity to have the conversation. What do you think this tells us about the future of America? Your experience? Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's a lot at stake. And, uh, I, you know, Steve and I have done a few interviews, we talk a lot about this, and you know there's... There's a spiritual and material aspect, right? The courtroom, you know, is the battle.

Is raging, there are physical things we do, and writings, and documents, and filings, and all those things, but there's also a spiritual battle. We're in the season of Lent for the church right now. And as a nation, we have a cultural awareness, a cultural character. And we have the opportunity right now, as this battle is raging, we have Roe overturned, and there's great conflict, if you will, on our nation. And we're seeing the dividing line being made clear. We call it left and right, Republicans, Democrats, good, evil, right? There's all the, you can call it whatever you want. End of the day, it's really a question about who do we as an individual follow? Do we order our life after the God who created us or do we order our life after the gods of this world?

Are we more interested in money and greed and power, convenience, personal peace and influence? Are we more concerned about making and understanding even a cultural, sacrificial element of our being that as we... Sacrifice for others, our culture is enriched, our culture grows, but we're at a point. Where we need to make that decision as a people, and we need to rightly discern and be willing to make a difference and to step into that gap and put ourselves at risk and make sacrifices for the sake of others and for the sake of our children and the next generation. Or it's ultimately we know it will turn out well, right? I'm an optimist. I know God is ruling and reigning, but if you look at church history, sometimes... The way he makes changes is through persecution against the church. And so that's what we have to understand. And we can either sacrifice willingly and give of our own time and enter into a fasting and a prayer time and

physically going out and doing things that will help our culture, or we can sit back and do nothing and those opportunities will come for us. What do you make of the fact that you mentioned the BLM protests? As plenty of conservatives have pointed out, they're throwing the book and then another book and all the books that you write. And meanwhile, you know, there were people that literally burned down police stations in the middle of major metropolitan areas and did not face 10 years in prison for it. I think it's part of the story. I think that allows us to see who's where. What judge didn't lock them up? judge gave them a pat on the back said good job you're doing good work. I mean it as this As things begin to bubble to the surface, they're overflowing into the courts and into the media, and we're able to see things for what they are. And to me, I think this is, I think it's an important.

I think it's a grace even to allow us to be able to discern where things are in our nation, to be able to understand. That there is an agenda, and you can say it's spiritual, or you can say it's Bidenomics, or the Biden mafia, or whatever, or Soros. Your bad guy of the week. But I think those things help paint the picture. Christians being persecuted and being risking a decade in jail for talking to a mom in a hallway or talking to a police officer in a hallway and you got people throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails in federal buildings that are getting out without any charges. It's really hard to-- Close your eyes and deny what's going on spiritually in that environment. Mike, can I throw in in that context, just from the legal side? It's just so clear, isn't it, that we are now in a day when we have a two-tiered justice system in America, right? If you're a friend...

Of the administration. If you're BLM, Antifa, you're supporting Hamas and attacking the White House gates and whatever, no charges. If you're President Biden and you have committed egregious crimes, well, you know, he's just a kindly old man who just forgets, we don't need -- bring charges. But if you're on the wrong political side or the wrong spiritual side, Of a sudden, as you say, it's not even one book. It's multiple books. We look a whole lot more like a banana republic than a constitutional republic that was the envy of the world, don't we? And so from my perspective, there's a sense here, as Paul said, we're at a crossroads, and the very foundations of our republic seem to me to be shaken, and there are big cracks

And in the context of abortion in particular, the picture that comes to my mind is it's like one of those monsters from a grade B horror flick that has suffered a mortal blow, but it's not quite dead yet. It's thrashing about and just trying to destroy and inflict maximum harm to anyone and everyone in its past. Right now. So there's a lot of work to be done and maybe even to kind of salvage our republic. But we are no longer a nation of laws and not of men. We're a nation of men and not of laws. I mean, I don't see-- You can deny the discrepancy in the enforcement of the law now. Couldn't you argue that, I mean, if we're talking... About conspiracies against rights. Couldn't you argue that putting a federal courthouse under siege for weeks at a time is a-- Conspiracy against rights or even even absolutely looting or burning down a you know a drugstore is what your right to access Yes, medical care think about this

All right, we sit in Nashville. Downtown Nashville is littered with monuments to the civil rights movement of the early '60s, right? Streets are named for these heroes. The museums sit right downtown the public library, which is across the street from the courthouse. It's huge display honoring these folks who courageously disobeyed the law by conducting sit-ins. So here you are, you know, in this... Again, just weird through the looking glass moment where these guys are heroes, you all are the villains who must be locked up and the key thrown away, you know? So every single civil rights movement of our entire history could have been labeled a conspiracy when you go there. We never brought those charges because we respected that foundational right that really undergirds the entire First Amendment until today. You know. Are you aware of a case, I don't know if you can answer this or not, but are you...

Are you aware of a case in the last few years of a left-wing protester who engaged in any... Sort of civil or maybe not so civil disobedience. Who was... Targeted as harshly as any one of these pro-lifers. Yes, one. Two that I mentioned in Florida, charged under face. And again, it was a token prosecution, and I think their sentence. I haven't followed this up, was very light anyway. But they threw the charge in there in order to protect against, which we have argued here, selective prosecution. You don't ever bring these charges against leftists. Once, so you can't say that now. And that would have been a misdemeanor charge? Well, they threw in the conspiracy-- Felony charge. I don't, as I say, think that they were sentenced very harshly at the end of the day. They just pled guilty and got out with a wrist slap, but yeah. I'm curious what the response has been from your perspective among sort of--

Conservatives in general because from my perspective on the outside I would like to see conservatives much more engaged in this issue and much more concerned about your plight. The plight of the other pro-lifers that are being targeted than they seem to be. What's your perspective? You know, we're getting a lot of support. And there's some great people out there. We had just phenomenal support throughout the trial, the prayer team, several hundred people praying. Daily throughout the days of the trial and fasting for it and stuff. So there is good support for it. I think people are at a loss to know what to do. 'Cause I mean, people ask me even yesterday, I'm like, I have no idea. Pray. That's about all I know. We're waiting and we're just trying to work and be a family and do what we're supposed to do between now and then.

There are elements, there are things that we can do. And I think we see this growing. There is an act. Congress and the Senate to repeal the face. Chip Roy has put it forward and who did the... Mike Lee. Mike Lee has co-sponsored it. In the other house. And so we can certainly call them and try to get track. On getting that overfilled, repealed. But, you know, there's another piece of this, Matt, too, in the pro-life battle specifically and getting involved in that. Is we're seeing a shift. I mean Dobbs is great and people are touting the babies that have been saved and that's a that's a good thing but there's There's also an element, kind of going back to the heart of the nation, and if we don't win the conscience and the pro-life battle, not just on the streets, but in the laws, but actually in the hearts of the culture. What we're seeing is, Karifam...

The, their mother company, mothership or whatever, the also sells chemical abortion packets. Their numbers they posted for. Last year they sent out 6.1 million abortion packets. Now 50 million babies under Roe is about a million babies a year. So that's 6X. We had under Roe as far as surgical and clinic abortions. So the battle is still raging and We need to understand, like I said, we need to reach the heart of the culture. We need to understand that it is spiritual. And if we don't change the heart, then the laws, you know, at the end of the day, won't ultimately matter. The laws typically follow the culture. The conscience and the culture. - And with the chemical abortions, are these pills still... Sent into the states where it's been outlawed? They are. Matter of fact, I had conversations this week with reporters that are talking about that and they're...

I know people where they showed up here in Tennessee where it's illegal, where they've ordered it and received it and they get the instructions on how to use it, even though it's against the law. Tennessee law. That's what I was going to ask. Is this some sort of loophole where these bands still somehow... Allow for the chemical abortions or are they just defying the law? I think they're defying the law, Matt. We are again coming to a point where much like pre-Civil War, I mean we are What unites America, right? How are we the United States anymore? When you have states like Tennessee that are committed to protecting life at all stages and prohibiting the introduction of drugs that. Will take that life away. Then you have the Biden administration that will, and a lot of major corporations that will pay for. You to go out of state to get your surgical abortion, and they're utterly brazenly disregarding the laws that prohibit importation of those drugs.

Hard to police obviously coming in you know in an anonymous package how do you know unless you've got federal folks at the post office opening every package that comes into your door we probably have that for pro-life But they're not going to do that for the other side of the political aisle. And may I tag along to what Paul was saying, too, about what can we do? Isn't there a sense in which Middle America, I'll call them for lack of a better term, has sort of been cowed into... Fear of speaking out. I mean you're a great example of one who will stand up and... Against the voices of the day and the elites and actually take that courageous stand. But most of us just want to be left alone, right? To lead the quiet and peaceable life that scripture talks about. Permitted to do that anymore if we're going to beat people with any real convictions. If we don't stand up and speak out, how can we complain when they take away the rest of our rights? You know, one of the core principles in the FACE Act is to protect...

Against intimidation of those seeking these reproductive health services. But the fact of the matter is that is these prosecutions are intended, calculated, to intimidate the rest of us from taking a courageous stand on the life issue. We just can't put up with it anymore. You were talking about the pro-life movement as a whole. Now you've mentioned the 6x increase, arguably, in abortions. To me that paints a pretty... Grim view of things and of the state of the pro-life movement after Dobbs. Is it... As bad as all that from your perspective? I think there's kind of two aspects to it. We are seeing victories on the ground. Gruesome and violent acts of the surgical abortions. You see this in the DC case with San Angelo's clinic,

There's five babies right now that are in legal pinball between the Congress and the NDC Police Department of what to do with these remains they found from this clinic. So thankfully those type things are coming down. Right, we're seeing a much less gruesome activity. But again, the heart of the nation. I think the shift, Matt, is that we're moving. We continue to focus on pro-life and abortion, and really the ultimate goal is more about population control. And more about a mindset of we can't trust God with these things. We have to trust our fill in the blank, whoever it is we're supposed to trust this week. And I think that is going to be. You know that's the battlefront we need to understand and discern and then figure out how to how to address that Now you said people ask what they can do to help

You gave a few sort of general things, some good advice there. But is there anything people could do to help you specifically? Well, I mean, Thomas Moore is handling. They're going to be with me all the way the Supreme Court if needed, and we'll continue fighting this because... In the real tangible material world, the FASE Act needs to be repealed and we need to hold them accountable. I am hopeful once we have that, we will be able to do that. This suit is over to file a countersuit and to go after them for wrongful prosecution and all the things that would come with that Obviously not left to be able determine exactly what we can do for that. The matter, you know. I'd like to say this if I can just segue off that. There are people in prison right now from the D.C. case. There's a handful of folks that have been locked up. They've been found guilty, but they haven't been sentenced yet. And they're in jail since last August, August and September.

They're in there today and if I could give, there's a free Heather Idoni, Idoni.com, is one of the, she's a co-defendant. And in our case, she was also in the DC rescue. And you can find information about them. And I would say, pray for these people. There are sites out there where you can write letters to them and encourage them. They're already locked up. I mean, I'm still free. I'm limited. I'm still on parole and pretrial or whatever it is now. I don't know whichever. Segment of the parole office I'm in, but I'm still, you know, still have limitations, but I'm not locked up like they are. And so we need to be praying for them and seeking justice for them as well. May I tag onto that too, Matt? Paul's too modest to mention, but I mean if he is incarcerated obviously the income dries up for his wife and children Only seven or so at home now, so maybe it's not a big deal.

Another, as Paul said, you know, it's the Lord's will to put them behind bars, then so be it. Heather Iodine, while in Carson, Here in Tennessee, has had the opportunity to minister, I'm not making this up, to cannibals in prison. She is sharing the gospel with these folks. Who come from Lord knows where, but really violent pasts. As Paul said, you know, there's no better place than to be in the center of God's will even when you're facing great risk so it's it's dire but The Lord still uses these things, I mean, in extraordinary ways. And no matter what happens at sentencing, then the fight continues, it sounds like. Continues all the way to the Supreme Court if need be. We'll keep fighting until God takes us out of the fight. So, peace.

Well, I appreciate you sitting down with us and the incredible courage that you've displayed. I wish that we had 50 million more Paul Vawns out there. But thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you, Matt. We appreciate the opportunity.