This is the gary vee audio experience, I'm very very excited for this episode. Not only is gentlemen, my neighbour in two separate locations, but, more importantly, he somebody who I've admired from afar pretty such as soon as I started, realizing it was business content in the world, and then he embarked on a book that came out recently that went very deep, in two into the world of advertising and the stuff I was doing with being or medium term Beth comstock, the former c m o about other and then former chair. You know big what a great big executives in corporate world somebody, I my very much someone danes and hey. I want you to the is running a new book about the industry and literally it was a mass of highlight for me and so sir. Thank you so much for being on the show, and so let's do this, because

I think the amazing part of the show in the audiences the economics of how many different kinds of demos why it's the show I'd love to get before we get into the new book. I'd love to get a two minute, three minute, you know bio, tell us about your career bees. I've been watching a bunch of documentaries and you keep popping up which makes me laugh and look the synergy laughter lack here and that a greater but the same face. I started again. Two in political science and thought: I'd, I'd, workin, government or some, like that and I went to work for the government. Our samuels who's who invented baggies in the plastic, close allies, businessmen, ups Industrial use money for governor with my help he lost. Ass, I was, I was also work Bobby kennedys. Nineteen sixty eight present she'll camp or less power has a low level yeah there must have been,

inspiring and then devastating both and then I went to journalism and wrote, starting with freelance than the village voice, and new york magazine both were Murdoch took over, did a hostile takeover group of his quit, rather than as a protest rather work there I know you're was that there were seventy seven. The winter of seventy seven was at his first play in the states, know his is first, but he bought the new post. Instead, the sex and promised it would stay a liberal newspaper and then obviously the oppressed- and he bought san antonio newspaper as well, but he had done hostile takeovers and in the uk and and and australia before, so he had a bad reputation, but obviously an interesting bit. this man shore and then I was our to work both of the new

worker and writing a column for the daily news and did tv on wcbs tv political commentary and have written for the new yorker since seventy seven and have since written twelve books. Twelve. This is my twelfth book. Hey everyone. It's mike from team gary v tune into today's twenty eighteen episode with kennel leta. As we dive into the math men era of advertising and was the first book he wrote, it's called the streets were paved with gold and it was about what happened to new york city, fiscal, not only fiscal crisis but the flight of the middle class, the warrior class, the race in a polarisation and I'm aware of that book. I had an ado early on from a successful standpoint it was not a best seller or some other books were, but it's a book, I'm proud of you is, did put you on them. from a quality standpoint in the circles you cared about will actually part of

Some of it ran in the new york magazine. This is before the new yorker in, like seventy five, and I did a piece should the people who hid budget deficits in new york city, like the mayor of new york, both lindsey and be moving governor governor rock the rest and the head of city by some of the union leaders did they commit fraud rang therefore, crime and milk glaser was the name. You probably know the great art directors of new york magazine said this is the investigative peace have done and milton right in front of clay falco, the editor of new york magazine, true what he thought the cover should be in it It was the mayor of new york behind bars, the governor behind bars, the bankers behind bars, labour leaders behind bars, and the headline was: should these people go to jail? And I said, oh, my god they just made this peace come along.

I have. I was writing a serious investigative piece, but but he just crystallized why people would be drawn in and want to read that. So that was a big piece that was fun yeah and then I did you know just the over the years a number of the most successful book euro under twelve. I think, my shoe commercially successfully they galloped a number six on myself near ties. Marcellus were the fur it was green glory on wall street, and that was about the fall of lehman brothers and the greed in the mid eighties infecting wall street and the next one. I was in ninety one and was called three blind mice. Yes, how the tv networks lost, how they were being disrupted, new technology to escape that. Yes- and you see a lot of parallel to what's going on with social media, things that nature to to that

This is well it platform shift of attention totally down. I I did a book was also did well as a seller go go. yet in two thousand and nine, and that was a book about absorption, and digital war was disrupting the legacy media, world newspapers and magazines, music, etc. And then this current book is about how the disruption that visited legacy media was now visiting the advertising work. How did you get here the new book friendly's ring, how do I get to what is sometimes confront of ease the epic disruption of the add business princes and everything else? Yes- and I said you, I am writing for the something called the annals of communication. I follow the media business and yet I don't follow the advertising business, which funds the media business and if you want to

Although the watergate adage follow, the money should not be following was happening with advertising, and so that set we off to just to name it after everybody- and you know it's really funny and a lot of you know who I am I'm a character. That's a I'm going to You will dude, I literally genuinely when I started. Beynon media knew nothing about the advertising world. I'd, never watched madman. I didn't. I was structured no idea that they were mainly run by publicly traded companies. I'd never the name more ambitious, two thousand nine thirty four old, I'm a businessman, but I'm in the wind, as some in silicon valley, investing said, never hurt, Morton, regular army com or publicist, I don't know what a creative The rector was, I never heard as metric vainer media's. You would be blown up the first forty Please have been er media bristle, it's called vainer media and he did with social media creative work do any media at the time I mean I knew I we would never to the first forty people hired

zero days of advertising experience. Why I here then, because I knew that when I I have conversations with the one or two people I met like three people and a couple friends were like you should hire somebody from an agency, I'm like that, makes a whole lot of sense. I sat down with them in two thousand nine and ten, and I'm trying to talk to them about why we're gonna focus on twitter and facebook, and you know, look I'd already built very large wine business. I had already invested in facebook, twitter tumblr. I already had a new york. by selling book. I was a business man at I was thirty five and They will try to convince me on. Why needs to focus on television commercials. Basically, One of the reasons I admire and, like you so much is you do two things that I like one. You talk about what's coming but actually it's already here and now as a very important statement and that were made

Action is to a lot of what I do. People think that I'm a disrupt our identity, this has already happened. Facebooks happened not coming. both for financial short term selfish reasons hold onto the past and they don't acknowledge the present. Not the future needs are. You know speak a lot publicly. Gary bees here he's a disruptor first line, unlike unpractical I'm an emotionally practical, I wanna be historically correct. I play for that So nonetheless I interviewed three people. They were completely come really an utterly in people will of understanding what was actually happening and they were holding up the romance of an award or an ad age article, or arbitrary nielsen ratings or theirs. things, smart, coming out of anybody's mouth. That was senior or emerging in the ad world, and I decided you know what I'm at a higher bunch of kids. I'm a teach them. I want to make sure

but they don't know anything about that old world, I'm going to a dna and a culture of kindness. And curiosity and an really the currency that I believe in which is the pulse of the moment and that what we did and that's why it's interesting. Every time you have written a lot about disruption over the years, and in every time you do that, a new probing, you do these interviews, you find people and legacy media who deny the reality of what is happening to them, and they do for lots of reasons in one of the reasons they do. It is with Clayton Kristensen of harvard wrote a great book several years Call the innovators dilemma. An entity argues that if you have an existing business, that is janet. any money and has a reasonable stock price. The thought that you gonna divert money from your existing business to some digital upstart and be

punished by crazy wall street because of it you don't do it and you get frozen in place and by the time you look up your businesses can. Let me throw a curve another curveball. Let me tell you what I'm fastened by I've always believe that I see it every day. I genuinely believe that majority. fortune, five hundred consumer package, good companies in america or so in trouble. They have no the crew sunday unilever's in high. You know they are unbelievably in trouble because what's happening with amazon, what's happening with television and o t t and big box retail on the drug of war. Martin, the channel conflict wars of the future of any remarkable, which means pepsi so go direct, but albert since and war kafka, won't let them, and meanwhile that's gonna, be the demise. That's good you're gonna get to that one next week. Passing to me. Is your right. I've always been able to pray, pray on the fact that people

are held accountable in ninety day windows and they will never invest and they will always be see, oppose nazi. He owes its how I think about it. That begs the question. Pleaser unilever comes to: yes, and says we want to hire you yes to do yes, a big. piece of our yesterday. Yes, what he said it s a shore, but Please let me do what I want to do and then they say sure. That's why you're here and then systematically from day to till year, six, they closed in the reins of what I am able to do it, and you know, what's funny about me. Can you know there's a little bit like this? It's gonna be unlinked like I'm, not hiding, I'm telling my clients that I don't believe in it. I'm hiding even less the always I'm building better media is to buy my clients brian's when they go out of business, I'm literally gonna buy head and shoulders and cracker jack's, and we bees- and you know, dove soap like that is literally. Why came into the industry? I dont want to be the next w p p idle.

On a building agency. I wanted to meet people and bill capabilities so that when the carnage came, I would be financial position to pick these brands and run them. I want to buy the neuro jets by buying rollers running when you get around. To get to that, I want to buy rolling rock for two hundred thirty million dollars from in baby, I'm Bab and then sell it to miller course for one point: seven billion after I run for six years and what are you but that belize certain? What would you do of those six years running it I would change that. Is I well liquor luckily row because the three year system, but let's say It'S- to use. I hadn't shoulders. I would become disproportionate, capable at amazon and shop, a fight, and I would I spend money on television in print and programmatic digital and I would spend it on facebook and instagram an original media like podcasting. I would, emperor eyes. The business around

style, job or legacy brand? And how would you create a direct relationship with the consumer by reading one through marketing incomes, which is actually marketing where they actually are? That's the punchline here like the way they score? The margin is in television programme attic. That's why those five holding company sell that What are you discover when suddenly yapping my and pontificating cause? That's only one anglo perspective or purview. What was that ah ha of the act world, and it is the asker these show. I do have some questions linked and we Click start putting in phone numbers today, because this is yeah My friends always know when I really respect someone. Instead of calling a meeting superpower to talk to me, which is always flattering, I really want heavy advertising, industry questions if you're in the ad world time to put your phone number, please respect that we have tons, we ve done too. Eighty shows will do two hundred anymore. Let's ride

we focus on the the subject matter in hand, because it is a you know that happens when you're in industry, no matter how much a cynical to it. You start getting very emotional about the five fallen in love and made real friendships. I've real friends at star common media vest- and you know how many com, because we're just nice people and they see it. They don't see it. Religion and politics, they actually don't see it and they don't see it Can I, when you asked the aha moment s? Certainly one of the blindness of people and related to that is the insecurity. People, they dont cindy audacity. They can how much audacities and the system well there's habits in the system and you can call it or death. But people doing the same thing. Yes, when over again and not being able to get off that track, yes,

but an yet at the same time as this denial of that their business is fundamentally threaten this insecurity there, where that they don't have the same pay level to attract people away. A facebook and google short does francis with his security that that the mistrust that the clients have for the agencies and theirs? and there's insecurity about the math men take over from the madman. Yes on at an end, says one the reasons they hire a guy like Michael cashman, whose he has a major carriages and my book. He gives a machine, security. He can introduce him to his clients, facebook and google, yes and microsoft, yes, and the agencies etc, and I was just struck by that- this kind of contradiction between the kind of smugness or comfort level and yet the insecurity well, that

but that's to me that to me as the characteristics of the moment, for the income and takes a fall question and I mean I'm sure that was the theme of all every time you ve delved into any industry. That's the exact I mean literally, you know I would think about when it comes to business. There's two ways to build the biggest building in town. One is too. build the biggest building. It too, is this. And all your time tearing down everybody else's building, when I see behaviour number two from a collective, I know its game over So that's what we're seeing so so, ok so dummy sense, but I think that's an unbelievably common theme that you probably saw in the tv. Escape man. I do the recordings of when you write a book like they about.

We networks not seeing what's happening with cable. Juliet recordings like audio. Are because, every day in your ip or they, the publishers, ip you're mine? I am Have you thought about putting them out as a pod? Can I would I do I don't consume anything, but would listen right now too? ever was running a b c Looking about key we'll television with the blind the audacity that she or he did in nineteen when did when you write that book came out in ninety one ninety five year project. First of all, that's laughable to me to begin with here's. Why, while five years that makes sense to me the thought, back in nineteen ninety one, there was still any debate that cable was disrupting. The big three is exactly kind of how I look is becoming the company goosebumps of getting because it's kind of the way I feel right now, just how does anybody to beat the facebooks already

and and social media in the mobile device with social platforms in up all the content can such an opportunity that, by the way, the three networks now I've seen disney owns abc, but as individual unit, ABC Cbs and NBC are completely out of business in today's world. we're not yet, but they have no police outside of live sports, but here here's what's interesting about it and one of the reasons I made les moonves one of the characters in my book. I did a chapter where I say can: can old media act like new media and and I use moonves and and and CBS and arguably less members is most successful. Modern television executive, yes, it is quarter, central question and you look at it and when I go back to the book, I wrote ninety one three, why my yes CBS was one hundred percent relied, as were the other now, yes, on one source of revenue, advertising

since then? Yes, the government passed the cable act in ninety ninety two years after my book, which gave them something called retransmission consent, which means the cable companies had to pay them to run their programs CBS. Last year got a billion dollars just out of that new revenue in ninety four, the government passed fence in regulation, changes which allowed the the networks to own and sell programs becomes another source of revenue, but the third new source of revenue is with a digital platform like netflix and amazon coming on. They decide the networks that they're going to sell their programs or their library to the I to them, and and arguably that it last year gave fifty million hours each to fox, given victimized cbs at great risk, but what are they really doing? And why One of the reasons is the title: frenemy in the book is the netflix. Is a of me

course their friend and that they give me a joint over two million dollars. But what are you doing really when you do that as old media cbs giving up giving up the last year. The touch point is the most important thing, precisely the touch points the game whoever's closest to the consumer wins so if armor consumer course, I say I don't have to wait any longer to thursday night for this program from a core a b, I don't have to watch commercials on netflix or h, b, o or show course and see. I am basically giving ammunition to my computer little distributions been commodities because of the internet, its now only about the ip, so ok backed the advertising worthy of a question let's go, that's actually move onto that them will come back when you got any possible. when I spoke? No, that's fine that were so, while you doing that, but you I want to talk about cason, immediate link, because of because I'm pleased this phone one of here that the largest

There are lots of frenemies in the advertising where there's a lot of runnymede in every business right away, but the biggest friend or me I discovered, which goes back to ah ha moment. Question in the advertising world? The biggest problem is the public, the I think you need to sell your ads ad to and buy products, but the, but the public increasingly is armed with tools to prevent your ass from getting through, particularly on their cell phone, you know. They re blockers that twenty percent of americans have an ad block, a toy, fifty five per. according to nielson who regard programmes on the periodic skip the ads attract we we don't want to be interrupted. On the most personal I ladders right time, matters can and there's another one which is the hidden conversation in that, even when it's not being recorded by the date of an ad blocker or the nielsen rating there's something that has always been my ally in business.

her name is common sense. Here's your common sense tells you. I don't give a shit what data is being thrown around when a commercial comes on television for most americans right now they go and look at their phone p end of story? There's nobody on earth. There's no report, that's being fund and funded by somebody else. That's going to convince me that american Don't do that the end Attention is the asset. So then, the question for the marketing community is what replaces that if you can't get their attention with sails pitches, yet with things they feel like an interruption that's right. What replaces that to me? There are going to start looking more like media companies and less like advertisers, okay and but then the but but one of the things that the that I came back at me when I asked this question of people in the marketing world and advertising, they would say we're going to we're going to offer you services.

yup, not sales pitches, and because we are going to be able to target as well know so much about you, Gary yeah that we able to target as at you and then the question becomes privacy yeah, the more it's a see saw the more you target. The more privacy goes down, the more privacy goes up. The more I get. The ability goes down short and that's one of the questions for the future. I don't know the answer to it here: here's the here's, the best part, the best part I wish I got. I wish we had a coffee before he started the ribbon. One question would have begged you, even if you didn't use it as part of the book. Just for our fodder. Do you want my favorite question, ask everybody in the advertising world is: have you ever sold anything in your life? Have you ever worked retail or have you ever sold? Have you actually ever sold anything your life? Because what the question over a thoughtful in a bottle of wine, and if you have a fair audience in your bunch of friends in the actually talk it out what you learn about the quest

have you ever sold anything. My friend is the following: you ve two sides of the camp in the ad world the math kids and the art kids, and they all? clean there is is it the reality is its both fifty fifty fifty fifty hours, fifty fifty buddy, it's both it's gotta, be fifty fifty and I'll tell you why I believe that, It's the the data is scaling at a level that matters you can get in front of people better than ever to your point, it will always see, saw but it'll be the next thing, as attention shifts like you know, facebook won't hold it forever either. It's just that kind of game, amazon won't hold it forever. They may have ten fifteen twenty thirty years are nos seven nine, but Art is the variable of success can get in front of everybody in front of everybody

she's politics is everybody loves to talk about cambridge athletic. I can get in front of every liberal conservative all day long all day long, but what's the picture in a video to get done. What I want is the variable I can get in front of somebody by cereal all day. But if representing cocoa puffs. Do I know what picture what copy, what video to get them to? Do it? Here's the problem! There, all talking fury my friend we'll talk in theory. Do let me practitioners are in advertising world. Didn't we people work at army publicists and all these companies have our actual doers and that to me as the punchline work produced. By do I mean what do you mean by those who actually create or or who have done, sales, but I'm not sure That's the punchline can look to me my dream: I always won the region's vainer has grown. Is we could be much bigger? You know

an economy for an early, most new applicants rolling you couldn't imagine if I was willing to give up one percent of my legacy, how big this company would be if I was going to sell programmatic? If I was. the cell television. If I was willing to do that, this would be super over there are no, how good they have it that I'm not willing to conform, because I want to look good in the recordings books. When I'm ninety six I'll give up the money short term, long term interest so the answer. You know it he'll dial, but the injuries anything run a feast you many people have opinions. He spoke ads in the outside world and I've never run. One looks generally dont know what it looks like to run that you know you They treat a word or a report like religion. Neither map actual business me, you know, can know what your business, no practitioners, ship.

and yet they say how and its gary be you're on the kind of letter Alan its gary vaynerchuk. How are you are you you're on with. Can we from what do you do with your question? I'm from use contacts it. Thank you. I own a publication here, We are obviously trying to expand our publics into other city. Ok, though, we have a local mitch which, with about eighty thousand people a month, is it a print publication it and what you called it called the lip

the list and what does it do to our website? Aware that the city you go to our work by capulet, dot, betty okay and we go there? You can check us out there bulk of our went to cities where Missouri city whirlwind sugarland texas, which are predominantly the top two. Are we losing him with service, but we're working on? Basically, I'm expanding our publications into other cities across the country. What is lethal and what is the list do while for marketing companies? So we do everything so we offer advertising university at? Were revenue comes from, but we do print marketing. We do digital marketing with the social media. We also help of wet marketing.

We do a little bit of everything? Okay, and- and so what's the question, though the biggest thing is that we're trying to to scale up so I'm just trying to figure out how how we can scale so we started to city. I want to use that mold that we have, and you know what's the best way, to attract new new businesses, new areas based on the kind of what have already created from scratch. What why do people find it valuable when I'm looking at the list that city re now when those functions are so available on facebook and Google and the attention is there what we You found

has been the rationale of the businesses in those two cities that have made them want a pony up money in a world where they would get a lot more eyeballs and value out of doing those things on facebook and google right, you Albert there were no we're part of both, for the biggest thing is, is what we found being being in the publication. Industry is lack of niche publications, and I think when you, when you haven't niche, that people like that kind of gifts But what about? What happened, what you're, what your niece local news, you're going to be more a community based publication. So we do a lot of community content. We have community bloggers, we ve got? You know we say: you're replicating the old local newspaper like the milburn item in

you know milburgh new jersey, though not another newspaper now now, where we we so we provide a lot of like relevant content. Obviously were not a weekly or daily newspaper, we're not the chronicle you know or like eastern conical here, but it's more of a nation that local people kin can jump on. That can help a tract in a local businesses? Small mama poppies is that it can allow more affordable it out. Where you need to help me. You are a little bit because the pitches so grey, I understand that you want local businesses to subsidize your business, that I've gathered right, you're. You go to a local town. If we win the attention of albuquerque new mexico, I can two hundred and eight hundred dollars per restaurant lawyer. I get that what the fuck tent. Are you producing like? What do you want?

How are you getting the citizens of albuquerque to go to this? like what are they consuming? What's the content, so we obviously direct them to our website. We put a nice right up why you should join its free obviously a kind of like ok. Can you like a real clap and yet will you help me? I think what I'm hearing now now am, I think I know said for the first time it feels like it's just Yellow pages rightly suggests it's just a directory of sorts, know it it it's a it's a it's! Actually, a combination of all of that, so it's kind of like a yelp like a like, I mean it's. It's obviously The aim is to review their will to join so that its like the alpine region. It is very similar, very familiar, Yes! Well, I think I know what you're doing tell me: if you think, I'm right, because if you tell me the truth that I'm right, then I can help you make more money right. I think I think what you're doing is you're just doing a good job and sands think what you are doing? Is you

so willing, some revenue into the business because you ve created. The list makes sense, I understand, but it doesnt have a scale that others do. There's the theo medical niece nature of the local market, and then you and whoever ouse are just doing a good enough job of getting fifty two. hundred dollars per small business and as long as there's just a little traffic coming to it, they can sup they can justify that minimal investment. True cool clears clear. We get about thirty to forty thousand impression of the month on our own. Like fair enough, it does pretty. Well, I mean I get a thirty to forty thousand impressions. A month on a website is like a bad facebook post. You know Like you? It's not a lot, but you know what's money, I love what you're doing. Let me give you ray piece of advice, high in turns, and people fresh out of school pay them as little as possible. But is

but good for them because they said yes, that's what they want. They want to learn sales and- and a sickly, finds young salespeople that don't close you the most amount of money, because your business is relying on small checks and just build a sales machine. You could pick any market or you can pick a rabbi per markings and who wants to be a leader and to peek a kansas, and then you can build out like the the actual product. You're selling doesn't need to be that good based on you know the reality and the reality is with minimal checks, a restaurant in our new mexico may justify the two hundred dollars based on six visitors. It seems like you're playing the long long long, long long tail. I think the vulnerability of the businesses you'd like to sell something that actually brings value, but at the end of the day the market is the market in the us of the smbc value. There's something there can be. The other thing I would do is take a look at what happened with patch patch was have a look

on line newspapers in communities around the country there are several hundred of them came on. Strong was a major investors. Aol bought it right at somewhere. At one time I took a railway at both the cup, yet the which he had started yet, and it floundered fail and- and I wouldn't Why? If it will, I think they feel differently. What I like about Alan can is they failed because their ambition- and there These was ahead of the reality, their business and had so many costs in the system can build a very nice two hundred fifty thousand dollar, your business, eight hundred thousand even up to eighty two thousand dollar. But Alan look look man I love you and I want to bring you value. You know the price like you have is unbelievably valuable? What I like about your potential is you. Be in the long, long long, long, long, tail of sales, you could say that

he's got that's what he asked. What the? U know: listen for a fifteen to twenty seven year old, who can afford or bodily for nine year old for Amy human being that can afford what you will to pay them and they want to learn sales or they just like it, to figure out I actually, I actually think one of the most interesting things that are brewing. Do you know that I'm a member of this classic me, but I have an idea starting you know a start up, like incubator, retirement home, you know how everything is you know these include like people with time and ideas come in all shapes and sizes, and I think we miss a lot Alan. I think you need to find sixty nine year old, gertrud and seventeen year old, rick and and and find people that can sell and if the ottawa, in what they're selling versus what you're paying them against your product works. That's how you scale brother. You are only in the sales business because your product is not valued enough. Does that make sense cool also takes out. I mean look, that's that's.

I can talk to me before we go the next question. Wanna go back to the industry. Because I'm really fascinating from your perspective. One of the things I don't do well either is really learn. My I learned the customer. I spend a lot of time on the customer. I spent very little time on the competition, so I'm I'm by the way I'm pumped I'm going to Your book, this late august gsm, can be offered I rarely read anything some super excited. I know castle declare no michael who, kind of arrears their head. What are your summit? What what's been the feedback? Gimme gimme six, seven minutes of the industry chatter, whose mad at you who likes you who agrees who disagrees what's been the buzz the care. I try and tell us the story of a through characters through who Cason yet is connecting character, he's the power broker in the industry. He's if there's a negotiation between client and a platform, an agency. He is at that table. Oftentimes any represents all

yes and you say to him. I was not a conflict of interest. This is no conflict, no interest and and and want one potential client said to him. Michael Why should I do? Why, should I how you you, you kiss everyone in the business, and why should I trust that you gonna hear protect me? He said you wanna good kisser, mere man and he is a good case. Yes good at that he's a character. Less members, as I said earlier, is a character trot looking at traditional he and some of the questions for the future, Alan iverson, ahead of advertising for facebook. Facebook is a major in a way to write about facebook. I say which I do you Martin sorrel, yes, who was recently left, yes started doubly Pepe thirty three years ago, khan. Look I'm gonna of an international framework is in a lot of kids watch him or people, don't know the industry in the industry.

the madman stuff, given agency, you know used to be that they were please your media. You know they would by the ads on abc or a billboard and make the pictures or videos that went into it. Those braided over the last twenty years and then lots of different companies, but those a consolidated under the roof of have you position of four five six, how many big lie? Five big hole and holidays the they are The leading one one of the most alarming and twenty one billion is doubly BP, followed by the calm. Publicists. Have us- and understood and policies. I saw a bunch of people texted me today, it's happening, I guess bad earnings and the market is down. on all the holding companies holding companies. The suffering that the presumption is that the two old, too many costs that they have to eat and that they can't move is fastened his as say you can advance

yes and and but they have scale right, there's a lot of people that want to work with banner, but if your crest or colgate- and you want to wear convener you're excited about us, but you know establishing the? U s but were emerging in the UK where opening up singapore in march, but that's not going mean anything to them right now. If they need an agency and they gotta be in south america, the global scale tends to work for these branding right now. What are their advantages? Well, one advantage is data. They have more data than you do. An end creasy the client saying I need more data in order to be able to target my he had so, let's so sad that kogi and procter and unit If you don't realize two things: what that It actually is and, more importantly, the fact that they need to own the data that and the actual one of the interesting things renting data from a holding company that is dirty data, for what trying to achieve an? importantly, is actually commodities because everybody has the same data and the very

oh, is, do you know how to move levers in real time and make the pictures and videos the fact that the industry believes what you just said makes me laugh inside and just makes me point to my room it's just a matter of time, people do not understand what the commodities are and what the value props about. One thing has happened in the advertising: the emphasis that the the madman- well yes, don drapers, as decree, have lost power, etc, and the media agency has gained power, yes heart because they supposedly have the data. While they have these, you know they have. These data that they bought, they deployed there on the exchange and the data gets deployed against websites in banner. Add form which means the data is worthless because nobody looks at the banner at a dsp is not evil if nobody sees the goddamn picture but then increasingly, yes, the those maybe agencies that have gone power is holding gases. Think You say we worry about the facebook. Google, who have much better data and because, but it's you know what's so funny-

can- and this is a point that what is just not being made and spun to talk to you, because I know how well you do your research forget about having better data? It's because they have a proper, are actually being consumed. I'm telling you right now like on my children's health feast, because great data ideas p could have great data. We No you can we both know. You said you know like we know these things right. Where do you see it in a facebook feed you actually see it now? go fast. We don't see everything you just say. better than you see it on a desktop banner, add on willie, willie dot com below the fault. That's all just a game of, whereas the attention Larry page Google once said to me, when I was doing my google work, he said: half the people click, I'm here, and you know, pay the advertisers and pay which very true but lesson and click on reset half the people who do a search, click on the air because they see the asses information. Yes, not as a sales ban, yes, and so because

about you go for. Google has done a very good job of being a toll booth if you're typing in pepsi they ve commence. pepsi to buy adds against pepsi. They ve done a very His job being told with I'm excited, see what alexa does to search and is getting out of. The question elected you think about it. Half the people who do a product search. Do it on amazon yeah on google out its and wait to wait to actual search right here. What's up, what's w p p stop price, that's just faster. I dont know we're not gets w ppp elsie is a british knocking advertising and public relations company with its meaning. his his london england and it's executive office in this is a really interesting moment, because thank you, you alexis stop, which is using it That is seven months ago. Nine months ago, when I asked a question or exercise, sorry, I don't know every second that little thing there

getting smarter and smarter and smart energy martyr and the changes search. destroy search people don't understand. What's coming, Google better win with alone here or there in trouble there there scary, beyond with canada, Gary what's happening, life is good sailor. Can they can I mourn where you from what you do. What you question minneapolis, I own a small bidder, marketing aided the paper. Gad in cigarette they didn't see for mobile. To try to talk longer. Of course, what can we help you at the clouds or the name of our business, of course, what's it called brother, let's make sure we get out there. What's it called vital traffic lab with more business, and I love it. We also have a blog to guide them a bit on youtube where we document stuff just live in a fallen. Nearly two years, though, goodman looked at my question: I just wanted to talk about data privacy

and help her a lot of our clients. It's a it's a concern. You know people are worried about targeting being taken away. You know household income, basically, no big, in the collection that yeah I get it. Companies have been leveraging to me as an advertiser. I look at it as a positive because it's really going to make competition. You know more difficult or difficult the target, but in reality you talked about like owning data. I think there's a big opportunity for people to just advertise. Smarter, and I'm you know, really do a better job rather than using these big dataset that who knows how they even got the thing. So I'm I'm just curious, like what your opinion on just like the the private, yeah again at work and I get other of all. Can you go I go? Second, I mean, I think, that one of the one cultural or historical factors that impedes facebook-

Mark Zuckerberg is facebook has always had a low opinion of privacy is always felt that were in the business of sharing. My head of communicating of creating common, yes, and that at our consumers- yes, are less concerned about privacy, yes, that there may be some other people. Increasingly, however, can we learn consumers are more concerned about privacy in the marks of a can witness, hidden and compelled to appear before I quick on up, because I think it's an important point. You know people to say things and then do something else. You believe, is just one means opinion. Do you believe this conversation about people caring about privacy? is more conversation verses what they actually do in real life in their behaviour? the misses, an important it is. I I think that clearly, historically, americans are less concerned or less

detailing judgment about privacy than western european that's right, witness the EU report on privacy that have just been imposed. However, it, if you think about what what the advertising the future is targeted as yes, that field don't feel like ass. Many of you, like information, so mad Gary you walking down the street heavier gps. Yet we oh, that you border sport jacket abarnis two months ago, yet you only two blocks born yesterday, if you went to barneys now, yes, we'll give you twenty percent leisure new sports. Yes, scared respond to their true merrily well or you might say that is a service tremendously, as you say, or but some gaps May I say how do you know so much about me they're going to about they're gonna know because the cat out of the bag right. I think the your part here is so my big thing on. This is now we know now listen if your common sense to american now you're not like what

you. Don't think when you go on the internet like it's impossible now you know, and so the more interesting conversation comes next, gets into a much more interesting macro. Combo about humans work. There are humans that are so heard of terrorism because it pushed on them as a conversation right and then there's you know, individuals were like terrorism was scary, is I'm told it is well, then a car would be driving into times square every single day, the weak running. the thirty nine people, because its fundamentally impossible. I will use my logical mind and so people make logical and emotional decisions I want. My data, the everywhere, because I want to save time Time is more valuable to me than anything else, but Bulgaria LISA, let's say right, but let's say that by the look like Derek Derek real quick to

things because I want to be. Please hang, but I think, canada about to go in a rabbit or so want be. Respectful to things brother number, one facebook had no targeting none zero? You know television. I I would tell you that it would be the best add product in the world, because what happen. Is you would they all have the attention of the end consumer and yes, we would be guessing and it wouldn't be fun for me to put wine ads in the feed where people don't drink wine, but guess what I comrades and bureaucrats. If eyewash, the commercial ninety percent of the time on television during sporting event, and I don't do either so the price of facebook adds to just

overall awareness would still be a remarkably better deal than ninety percent of the alternatives. As long as the ads can money continues to not go in there by the big holding companies because they haven't figured out how to make enough margin in their neighbour way leisurely. I want to assure you that every man, let's talk about the the ninety seven percent of facebooks revenues, come from advertising. and those revenues come largely from advertise who say I like the fact that you can target as unfair unfazed just about ten years today so, if I pant target, if I don't have the data it can its cause everyone's wrong about the awareness on facebook, the awareness facebook does Israel arguably better than that e t c work. That's happening on facebook. Every entrepreneur is laughing at every big company in the world right now, because we're making a fortune on the targeting capabilities on facebook. To your point, but people to realise is the real value of facebook. Right now is top the funnel awareness, but all

like a madman, are two archie, artsy and legal commercial is more special than a facebook that boy Julie's refer your guy, who would who would does like banner ads hate. Him isn't isn't where you talk about it. Equivalent of a banner of course become. I ran banner ads for wine library. Ninety ninety six could make a fourteen percent click through his back, then like anything or I don't hate anything. I like what summers are doing. This second idea for ideas, trade attention brother, I a trade attention I have feelings for anything. I can't wait to make videos in nine years, saying facebooks fuckin shit, how the fuck you guys still in facebook. How do you not understand a? I? Had you not understand br? How do you not understand influence or marketing on bubu dot com? I have zero emotion. One emotion, your vulnerable. This is day trading attention every back in the day and the top of the

no brand work at scale to move coca cola and Bmw lives in one place. Facebook, almost no one's talking about the open- please you say something- is pregnant with with questions which, yes, if in back seven to nine years from yes, facebook may be disrupted. Yes, I mean I understand somewhere a garage. Yes, it's the and roger sallies in your garage later, but what? What have you ever you disrupt to net with network effects benefit of facebook. Two point: two billion consumers. What what are you? The garage you would have said you would have said the same well, first, platinum changes so now we're talking of visual in here, hey Alexa, whose mark Zuckerberg, you know when we start going areas of herbert american when we settle may when you know that

I never knew marks mentally mark elliot elects. A stop can you know this when we move to a different platform? All bets are off I've, are you know, there's only two companies, I'm really bullish on facebook and amazon. You know when we a voice too two billion get reset. You would have said the same thing about ibm. You too said the same thing about microsoft. You the same thing about Google. You know that you know that you feel out of all the years of destruction from woolworth's the walmart from all the ears you're telling me now. This is the one it's facebook it's one knows I have. I have a heart, I mean I having written for this coming microsoft, trial valves, yes and with just the part yes maimed and the judge yeah, the original judge ruled that they should be broken up. I thought was a crazy decision, because the easy decision that that's going to break them up- that's right. I have a harder time with with the benefits of network because you have an spend time on blockchain enough, you haven't

enough time and what I just haven't spent enough time when I watch I watch facebook by instagram try people who pretend to companies that could potentially shores rub them and the government's step back and allow him to do. Is that if you want the government to get involved, good news, sometimes that little, I'm nothing, you do good news, so times. They do I'll. Tell you right now: amazon is far far more along in the leverage they have then face bouillon. I noticed you left Google off your list, because you see amazon idle, threatening pro my pv on google and apple. Is it already happened to them through the merit of of actual merit? A business look, I believe, left on merit. spoken, amazon get disrupted? I feel like that happened I feel like there are moments in time that govern like to get involved because they get scared. I feel like europe is more on privacy- just cause it's an older version of entitlement than america. Is it just three hundred years ahead of us?

You know they also had the world war two and hitler, and I get it I get it. I should I get it, but you know: look it's not stopping nationalism across the world right, so regulating google is not going to change. You know, peoples, you know wiring of, thank god slightly more love than hate and that always is gonna play itself out Derek. I also think that you're point is exactly right. Brother and I'm excited for the future. Your business. It will be up active partners game it is now in you know this, even with all the data. To your point, the day has made a lot of advertisers lazy and not good. You know hysteric even or an amateur. You could be good at facebook, so underpriced, and so good right admitted emitter right now, like you couldn't believe how good you are at it at first, knowing deep down in your heart fuck, I don't even know anything yet true or not yeah for for a local or local business, the pega at bad at running facebook ad.

it do serious damage without really knowing much at all and all of a sudden you're the darling of the ice patra yep exactly, but when it comes back at a national campaign or you know, it'd be talked about, I think amazon or getting people to doing sales on their own ecommerce or shopify, like that, where it's more technical and where in leveraging data. Yes, but let me tell you this as somebody who lived through early internet and then lived through early Google adwords, this, players, are still making way too much money on facebook. That means the biggest companies in the world are not pouring the proper amount of money in there. Derek your game. Your game with facebook is to continue to hope that the company that can wrote about in front of me is continued that they can make more margin on their own ds, p and programmatic, and on television, because as long as they keep doing the wrong thing for the biggest clients in the world, you and I will continue to eat in there, selfishness exactly well?

Thank you. You got a better care, can't, oh shit. Sorry dark! Can I really believe that last statement- I am very, you know I am not mother teresa. I I I put legacy over currency so drives my actions and my ambitions of buying brands just happened to by accident online my interests better with my client stepping my clients? Getting better services from vainer is absolutely a collateral from my selfish ambition, but is playing out now. I mean listen if they were so or and more tuned the reality what's happening. They would fear you more than they do. You mean the holding companies, of course, but there, but and the clients are. It has nothing to do with small, and you know this- you learn is a long time ago, when you're in seventy one year old executive. and you're leaving in twenty four months, and you your ass off and you want

three bill. Isn't a yacht you're saying one thing: I'm gonna do nothing to disrupt to disrupt the stock price. That when I leave, I can strike and there's no way. I'm in vienna media does make money poor cfo, wants a punch me in the face every day, because I'm investing in voice and a high and machine learning and influence or and Singapore he's Let's make a little bit, I'm like no, this is our time or the legacy companies that holding companies say will by Gary that's right and what they don't worry says. I won't sell to an end or something else about Gary. That's funny, and I don't know where this chip came from. Maybe I'm sure when I was a kid I was an immigrant is a million reasons. I can come up with it It's not about me! I'm going to do rates of minors can be a two billion dollar company, peanuts its I'm am obsessed with inspiring derek and sally to stay dependent, and then she gets real interesting guest you gonna, do a nice little job with vain or do a couple billion gary

spiralling an entire generation to tell the holding companies to go fuck themselves, cause they actually make more money with state independent in the long term? That's a bit fuckin problem and you're right. If they really really really really knew what I was up to, because usually they rely on greed, not legacy you get a character to comes along. That cares about legacy and knows do coms better than anybody else, your industries and make my sure I've line for you, pleaser viewers. What you mean by legacy for me, reputation, rapid, current reputation that only grow. You know, I'm gonna, be the reverse of christopher Columbus. I mean that I I, know who I am. I know how I role. I like that here what I like about the way. I role that I want inspire other people role. I love that will that no me the best like me and admire me the best I don't mind, people that see me cursing onstage, saying he's a charlatan. I have but the I understand why they would go there. I know what I look like as a cover, but I know

to be a good reputation to people that no right and then I, like that will grow in respect, as it looks back, pond to really under what I'm really doing with fifteen year olds, uninstall emory now and the propaganda of kindness and gratitude and empathy and being the bigger person, the things that teaching to a generation of alpha males right now. I will never reap the benefits of that work today, but I think- my grandkids kids can be really proud. When people chat about at once, people can dissected and I have a great benefit that mohammed Ali and others didn't have. It's all been I commented on. I very big ambition and I could see argument was that were document I film my whole caught him. If you know like it's It's a very it's a very big ambition, I'm up for the challenge, but I will say this: it is all built on the things you've covered your entire a career. Witches

amazing audacity. People do the wrong thing for or term economics expensive their legacy. I can't wait. You know these are going to talk about this year. Are you you mentioned earlier that I came to you through both camps that attract a g, and I said to Beth, I said Beth, who should I talk to, who is disruptor in in the men, said gary vantage, conveying a media and and and act. You are one of the people I profile as as after the others is Bob limburg had argued, who basically says that the agencies is sometimes not write it, as we have to redefine yourself, another way, a luxury that you guys. I spent time within the book as juxtapose, as deputy peace and the others can appreciate being her. My place can, on the show, weak the guest gets to ask the question of the day

And you know, as a research man, I don't mind where you go with this. Maybe you already know the next thing you want to write. Maybe there's something that you're just curious about you ve got a ton of entrepreneurs skewing under forty pretty aggressively. You know A question of the day. Do you have for them doesn't have to stay in the context of our talk, even because I know your brain is always working on the next thing, potentially or maybe just I dunno, metro going to finish their season. I don't care where you go with them, I'm not going to ask you how you're going to buy the new york jets now you're, asking them, and and my thirteenth book I would like to a biography and I'm wrestling with who is a great biography subjects. and so all ideas are welcomed. I love you ve, never done that.

Profiles. I never will. I know your kind of yours, I know, but I've never I'd like to exercise another muscle by writing about. I love you, but I don't want to do historical biography, cause elect interview, people, and I can assure you that I love