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the documentary from the bbc well service. I Michel Hussein. We many weeks into the current conflict between Israel and Hamas. But in the debate you're about to hear, I ask with the help of a panel what happens when the war ends one day. The current devastating phase in the long story of Israel and the palestinians will be over thousands of me we have already been killed in the last few weeks and millions of others have been effected in one way or another all Seven million is rabies seven million palestinians as well as people. Feel connected to all connected to the region. Elsewhere in the world, including here in the uk, both sides? There is a past and historical context: the worst massacre of Jews since the holocaust decades of displacement occupation for palestinians. But surely has to be a future to at least a vision of a different, better future.

His face is not only killed innocent people of all ages, but scarred the young from twenty three year old house last seen with part of his arm, blown off and being, Sport, it away from southern israel too, Gerald Emily, also believe to be a hostage of Hamas in Gaza. two year old Fatima legs had to be amputated after she was trapped in the rubble after an israeli strike and thirteen build Amira who was caught in a bombing is she slept, has a spinal injury and does not if she will walk again with the help of our panel here night, we're here to ask, or at least to start the sketch out what it will take to consign scenes like these into history. Welcome to the today debate. We will talk about the day after this war ends in the immediate aftermath, and also about what is ultimately required, whether that might be the orthodoxy,

a two state solution, or perhaps a single democratic one, the pommel or stage before I did audience. Let me begin by should them Daniel levy was born and brought up in the uk and holds joint british is ready citizenship. It was after university in the uk that he went to Israel. Did his military service and ended up being asked during that to be a member of the israeli delegation to the peace talks with the power stimulants. That was in the yitzhak robbins time and he later did the same onto a hoot barracks time These rules have been an adviser in these radie prime minister's office, and today he is president of the. U s: middle east project, which is a nonprofit founded by the council on foreign relations, welcome Daniel, next to Daniel is called a car me who's, a british palestinian, born in Jerusalem in nice, in forty eight, the creation of Israel, let her family leaving and she grew up you came she trained as a doctor,

it a specialised in the middle east as an academic cheese, written memoirs of her childhood in Jerusalem, Turning to the west bank to work for the palestinian authority in two thousand and four and her latest book publish earlier this year is one state. The only democratic future for palestine, Israel. She believes that is the best possible route to adjust future for all concerned, including palestinian refugees, peter rickets served as a british diplomat for many years, including being on the foreign office middle east desk during Israel's invasion of lebanon in nineteen. Eighty two, he chaired the hey joint intelligence committee. When tony blair was prime minister, he was later national security adviser under David cameron, he was head of the diplomatic service and is now a member of the house of lords. Welcome lord rickets, jeremy bone. My colleague his long knowledge of the region and its peoples began when he was a foreign correspondent based in Jerusalem. He was late

BBC middle east editor and now international editor on october, Seventy was in ukraine and he went from to Israel, reporting from the south and at one point going into Gaza with the israeli military he's previously reported often from Gaza, and his books include one on the six day war in nineteen sixty seven and the making of the modern Middle EAST. Welcome back jeremy welcome home Let's stop than with the immediate aftermath of the day that must come. I think everyone Hope, sooner rather than later, but the day when this this phase, this war stops. What will the immediate problems of Gaza be? Then? Jeremy were to be destroyed to start with physically there will be many more people dead than dead. Now. When I went into Gaza with the israeli army and went down from the northern border with Israel, down to the northern age of Gaza city

I did not see one building, there wasn't either totally destroyed or very close to it, and I didn't see one palestinian civilian either. I think that. In that day. After whenever it is there, it just loads of questions which note I will talk about today, one of which is who's going to be responsible responsible for security. The israeli prime minister, Mr Netanyahu, says Israel. Ah who's going to be run. im a municipality who's gonna be in charge of trying to rebuild who's, gonna, try and bring services to the people. The EU and already has a big role through in russia, the agency for palestine refugees, but that is beyond their capacity whose,

I pay for it all. There are loads of questions and then there's a bigger question to which is this massive intractable conflict between these two peoples, which has gone on for a century if there isn't some way of settling it and having a political horizon that both sides can aim towards than they ever pretty simple fate. I would say that more work. And that's without going into the whole regional repercussions potentially of what's going on his well. So the destruction just spelled out that that means homelessness does not meet our people who not only have left their homes, but they know their homes were destroyed after they left. When I was taking off from tel Aviv this morning,

they were getting the first serious reign of the winter, the weather's being like a british summer in the last few weeks, but it was in Gaza today is also a short, so video of it was absolutely tipping down and when people We know that living in the open margin with that's like it's very sandy and muddy, and it causes Well, if it's not paved over with concrete or tarmac or some vague, it turns the mud very quickly that ray of Gaza that you went into the other day, what did in you ve seen many wars? What did it remind you of what and it may in terms of the level of destruction? It was like a leper after the russians and the syrian regime finished with it. It was that level of destruction, other commie is a palestinian on this point of who will be responsible who will be responsible for services? What would you like to see? Well,

will you. Let me just say that what germany boeing has just been talking about is absolutely incredible. It's incredible that this degree of destruction and killing tor tolerated by so many western states, particularly obviously the? U s, it is extraordinary to me. I have to say this that that these states government- certainly not the people there are governments- can stand by and watch this wanton destruction for which there is absolutely no justification and do nothing to try and stop it on the country to encourage support an arm israel it to me extraordinary now sorry, michel to your question, who should be in charge? Who should be running? You knew their assumptions here, which

I am very sensitive to as a palestinian. I he could find. Most palestinians will not agree with the assumptions implied in question, which is first of all, that there will be a time when, inevitably, as were Hamas, will be defeated. I dont by any means certain. By the way you knew Israel. Been bombing gaza for thirty nine days, there is no evidence that it's got very far at all, with defeating Hamas, that's to start with secondly, the alone can. The assumption is that her mask by definition is the sooner non grata on shooting it cannot be regarded as anything, but a bunch of is. That is an assumption that most palestinians do not share, and I think it's important to point that out. So

the fact that a mass is as it were, assumed to be a put out of action, inevitably defeated and b that, even if it were not defeated, it would not be acceptable. Running Gaza is not. The thing that an issue palestinian that you would accept that. Rather, let me ask you a different question: not the do except But can you understand why Israel can no longer tall after october? The seventh can no longer tolerate Hamas being in control next, all, oh absolutely I think the thing that I'm trying to point out is the way Israel is going about. Reading it of Hamas is not to actually kill eleven thousand gauze and civilians, and it's not way is not to reduce gaza trouble. That's not fighting Hamas

course. I understand that Israel wants to, as, as put it, I think, eradicate, come ass. Of course I can understand that, but no behind your question as well is, I think, you're referring to recent talk about the palestinian authority, perhaps being brought in lapse, unwrapped the u n agency it. This is The real mess you nope, it's a real mess, because the palestinian authority is not accepted by most palestinians. It's lost an awful lot of credibility and it's not in a position to earn a have as the sort of stature that would take on the running of Gaza. So really it's actually very difficult. Question too honest. I do not think that would be suitable, Daniel levy. What what do you think

Benjamin Netanyahu has in mind when he says. Overall, security responsibility will will remain with israel for gaza after the war I'm not sure that prime minister Netanyahu went in to this with a plan for the morning after it looks distinctly like that was not the case and what you have. is both a political and a military leadership in Israel who know that when this finishes the moment of reckoning comes, the commission of inquiry are appointed and begin work in terms of how wolves dad this monumental failure of intelligence of deterrence of initial response on october seventh, I also think it's reason bull to work on the assumption that nothing yahoo self, is unlikely to be there that long to oversee the morning after he was not.

he was heading a controversial government before this as people know he's also appearing in court, is as the defendant and I wouldn't eulogise him too quickly, because he has tremendous capacities of political survival but I think people are not expecting him to be around there when he talks about the overriding security control. I think we first have to recognise. To an extent. That is something Israel has asserted since its withdrawal, so Israel controls the airspace and the maritime space. the sea around Gaza and, of course, as the crossings that come into Israel. What he seems to be hinting at is The situation would prevail in Gaza, which is similar to the west bank, where these Please go in and out now what that is. left in the west bank is the, and this relates back to rot what rather just said,

whatever palestinian or other or authority, is in control there. then has to basically become a a sub contractor. These israeli security, which immediately undermines any ability to have credibility with its own people that and to the real worry, I think, is that what this speaks to is a continued, the leadership level is rarely assumption that there's a military solution and there isn't there needs to be a political

ocean and military people will be the first to tell you. We can create the circumstances for politics to step in and do the work load rickets you ve seen in many crises from the diplomatic and then and the national security perspective. I mean it essentially, what what's being described as it is? It is an even more complex phase than the one than the than the one where we're looking at now. What do you think it could look like what? First of all, I think it is too simple to talk about the day after I don't think, there's gonna be a clear cut into the fighting. It could be missy. I think, I think partly the israeli security forces will have to be there to protect aid workers and others coming in. There will have to be a massive humanitarian operation in the days after it becomes safe to do so, even if there are still risks from from bands of people with guns threatening aid,

because this germ, he says there are immediate issues of of life, for perhaps a half of the girls and population, a million people or more living out in the open healthcare food fuel water in the international aid community are very effective when they can be allowed to operate, but these really have to allow them to operate the getting in massive numbers to cater for that requirement, and when you, when you look back to sitting on the middle east, a desk and nineteen, eighty, two and and knowing that these ready invasion of of lebanon was under way, did it, Did it look straightforward, then? The awesome parallels, nothing. Nothing is ever exact from history, but sharon invaded in southern lebanon in nineteen eighty, two after skirmishes on the northern border. Nothing like the casualties of course, of the awful events at seven o clock

and initially, when rather well, and the israelis besieged west beirut. There was departure of the polo from Beirut for tunis, their military infrastructure was destroyed, it looks Israel has achieved its military objectives, but then it all went wrong. President Bashir, two mile was assassinated. The worthy, awful massacres in Siberia should deal a camps by finance ministers. Israel pull back into a very unhappy occupation of southern lebanon, and when they left in nineteen eighty five left behind a vacuum into which his bullet arrived. Rainy support and now actually is will our more potent threat to Israel and Hamas, so a military operation cannot achieve political objectives. Destroying military infrastructure does not produce security, We need a plan and I agree with Daniel. I dont think there is a clear plan and I fear that industry is,

then the lessons of nineteen. Eighty two not been learned and Israel will be. Even less secure in the aftermath of this very interesting ideas. You were saying Peter about ninety days. You too, because there is the you hear. People now in Israel, and well one solution might be to put that hamas leadership on ships and ship 'em answer somewhere, just like they did with arafat and the piano guys out of beirut in nineteen eighty two and You described in other ended really well for azra. Well, they don't follow through to realize that you can do that you can still leave. A vacuum can still leave the political aspirations of the palestinians. Unaddressed It just leads to the most radical elements moving in behind all this is exactly what I want to move to now to fit from talking to about the day after, for which I think it's pretty clear that you know that none of you believe that there is

a plan to to the longer term, and- and I also given the fact that it's impossible to think of what the longer term might look like or behind parties could be brought together without american involvement. I want to bring in doktor evil in focus who joins us from Washington, thanks for being with us, even you served as deputy assistant sexual defence in the obama administration. If you have a long expertise in international relations, now running the Mccain institute, inspired by senator John Mccain, I know that in recent days you spoke of every day that goes by with some more innocent life in Gaza being a bad day for the world. What do you make of what the by administration- is doing, and particularly what seems to be a difference of opinion with the israelis about about the day after an who runs Gaza, I think the binding administration is in a difficult position because, of course, the israeli government is an even more difficult position in a predicament if you well and beyond.

The scenes the by demonstration is trying to knowledge, or maybe more than knowledge, but again publicly they're they're, taking a slightly more a softer stance, but they're trying to get the israeli government to my reed what they're doing in terms of the military. Campaign against the hamas terrorists, because, as you all pointed out, rightfully, and as long as you voted me a thing: it's yours, is to watch how the peat the palestinian people in Gaza are suffering. Nobody wants to watch and frankly you know. There's there is, of course, an understandable and valid cause causes belly. Reason, for war, for the israelis to go in and take out the Hamas terrorists because of the brutal barbaric attack that their innocent civilians suffered, but it doesn't excuse frankly, this law

life, and so the israeli government needs to be really thinking, not the first of all about how they condemn the military operation to take out hamas, and that, I think, is, that the united states has been trying to be helpful with and has been pressuring these, the government on, and the second thing is what all of analysed already sort of indicated. We need a solution. and it needs to be an international solution. There needs to be a political process, that's front and centre, something that gives the palestinian people hope something that is fair and and frankly, to be funded by many other countries, not just the united states As President obama said on twitter, I believe x the other day said: no one's hands are clean right. A lot of trees, a lot of leaders, the neglected or in the case of Netanyahu, action, made the situation worse when it comes to the west bank and gaza, so we need to move back to, I would argue

I agree with my government. A two part solution, a two state solution. Rather, and we need to get the political gears in place immediately. Frankly, I think that as president, has a lot of leverage he could. He could announced today that all of the assistance that we provide is was contingent on Israel and you know coming to the table and then, of course, we have to try to get the guy estates and many other you know moderate muslims that are partners like jordan and others, which would be willing to do so to come to the table to work with us to come up with some sort of interim security solution. That leads us, possibly toward the two state solution, leaders to political. How come that is almost twice the palestinian. Boy. President Biden is not doing, that is new and any international solution would have to be led by the united dates that those are the facts of aid. Can it can, you see any admitted

any future american present being willing to put as much into it. It does President Clinton did. I don't think we have a choice. Gas president Clinton put a lot of political capital and effort into middle east and trying to come up with an accommodation, durable peace between the israelis. the palestinian people. You know moving us towards a two state solution and he was, of course not rewarded for it terribly and but frankly then, everyone just gave up and it's not acceptable to say there are other parts of the world where we do. The same thing for the international community says too hard, and then we leave people to their faith when we have already started a process, so we are responsible for completing it and eat that the history here involves the kingdom and involve the united states. You know it gets going back to the crew

none of the state of Israel? We have a responsibility here to make sure that the palestinian people also have a better future and that they are not subject to you know, impoverishment and lack of security and, frankly, the the the leadership that they have had as well, and that, of course, will probably beg your next set of question. They know who's going to leave the palestinian people and not very difficult. You have the in a boss who is weak, partly because he's not fully and control is security I think that's the only reason and again I think, if we have a pathway in place with specific guide posts, maybe dates, although I don't like dates as much as I like criteria, you know real guideposts for political transition. I think that something that people can rally behind, but yes, it will take a lot of work and president by now, lot of other items on his plate. But, as he himself has said, these things are all interconnected. What's happening in Gaza right now. What happened to Israel, what Hamas, with the bad

King of IRAN unleashed upon the israeli people is connected to russia and Ukraine, because of course iran is a partner with shot in the horrendous genocide that russia's trying to wage against the ukrainian people and no china as an actor that could be more constructive but has tacitly alive on the and on ukraine. I want toned, honours the air for the government and I think the president Biden you know he will end up standing up to the plate on this is the documentary from the bbc well service. With me, Michel Hussein and a panel of guests. debating what happens when the war between Israel and Gaza ends. I wanna really try drill down into some of these visions of the future, because we have to have to hold on to this- is that this is otherwise of really dark time, and I can actually see from all of you all a body language, it so did the you know it's it's understandable that this is it's! It's it's hard! Listen it's it's a hard reality, but carter you have

you know your own family stories is, is the story of so many of us, so many palestinians, its of leaving your homes, its of exile, its of dispossession, You today believe in a one state rather than a two state solution. Why? And why? just that one state look like well, thank you for reminding everyone about my own personal history, not because it's me, but because it represents the x areas of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of palestinians in nineteen. Forty eight, so yes, this is a very personal exe events for me and a lot of suffering was involved. and so many other palestinians, We don't want to have to go through that again and therefore

seems to me that the lesson of this terrible tragedy in Gaza should be that we make a decision that this issue, the problem between Israel and the palestinians, must be resolved in a long term and stable and stable way so that we don't have to keep coming back to a repetition of what we ve been seeing. Now I m not just myself, but many others have come round to the view long ago that the way to end this definitively, I mean no sticking plasters

and the two state solution is a sticking plaster by the way to ended definitively. We have to start thinking about this in a different way and the way I'm my starting point for that is that what I'm looking at is the palestinians have rights, and it is not fair to deal with any kind of solution. We, cuts those rights or witless them down to a point which is quotes acceptable. Their full rights are, there. Not only should the people that Israel currently rules be emancipated from occupation by the israelis and look for to a future in which they live in.

And to citizens just to be clear, to become citizens of israel to essentially give up their right to their own self determination and to become what Israel would call arab israelis. Absolutely I I'd. I believe that the quickest and the most direct way to get a one state in Israel, palestine, is for there to be an issue. rights regime, so that, whether your palestinian or whether your jewish israeli, you both have equal rights, equal citizenship. That, I think, is the way forward and you live, in a state which represents you, that is a democratic. Let me turn to Daniel on that, because if you look at the demographics, that's not a majority. Minorities are two units fairly evenly balanced in the demographic, so it is the it is the end the jewish state. Is it not well, it would be the end of the jewish state, as has existed until now, but there would be a collective. As you said,

israeli jews in the situation. That roger is discussed just as there would be a national collective of palestinians in such a state. So I think it's it's important to come at this moment of total dish. One of the complete failure of oslo- and I was involved in It- and I came by- was very involved in a blueprint blueprint for a two state outcome. Now we moved an awfully long way from that, partly I think that the impunity accorded to Israel by the international community was a very poor guide to smart israeli policy. I think when Israel realised that it could get away with anything made two states far less likely where we are today. we are either require Annie

stream. Lee assertive push to get the occupants, not in the conditions of the nineteen nineteen, because there has been a four hundred and fifty percent increase in illegal is Really settlers since then, so these are the conditions of the nineteen nineties, Seven hundred thousand plus israelis living beyond the green line, so The one needs a very assertive push to make that to state reality, but two states, not one state and something that if you want you can call it a state, but it won't really be a state or. One has to look at this and say: maybe partition is something whose moment his part now that may sound, even more pollyannaish after october, seventh I think one of the lessons of october seventh is: we have to humanize each other.

partition is a paradigm. Separation is a paradigm. Poor has one can't live together. So I think the other it cannot be the Israelis live with rights, and palestinians live without rights, because then neither will live with security. Where. Rich in one state or whether it's in a federal system or whether its in two states, you need the push to get past the impasse, and it may well be that it's easier to get too what, rather as described than tat. To the old to state option, and that may not be the case, but we know for sure is if we continue to ignore the root causes, We will be where jeremy said endless rounds of war, but be more efficient and more frequent before I come back to Jeremy Peter indeed, the two

state solution- is the settled international view. It is, and it has been for the uk and the european countries for decades, and it has been because whenever we ve thought about it,. Just one solution among others, it is the only solution that potentially delivers well security for israel because it addresses the under I demand of the palestinians to have their rights recognised and unless you have that in one solution or another, you will never get durable solution, beaten, peace and security for israel of all the possible Variant of what can happen in Gaza, full is occupation we know that leads- we ve done that in Iraq and they do not want to go there this kind of partial palestinian self government, with Israel reserving the right to come in and out whenever they want to mean that model. has failed it first. Finally, I think on the seventh of october- and I can't

any coalition of international countries being willing to come in and do a marsh plan with billions of dollars to, bill gaza on the basis israel still reserved coming out to further military operations if necessary. So that's what it's me back to the, as you say, international position romania's, despite all the difficulties to stay it would address that fundamental issue. The palestinians feel they don't have rights and, in my doubts about the gutters proposal, she is extremely well qualified to put it forward. Is it I can't ever being accepted in Israel, because it would it to be mean the end of the judiciary state. That has been the objective for a century it if someone it's me that it might be acceptable in Israel. Fine, but I think we need stay in the in the area of is viable and what is potentially achievable. So I hope that this has been such a shattering event

and that it is a game changer to turning point and that people can think afresh. One state solution can be achieved, then very interesting, but we do need fresh thinking. We the americans, I think, to be much more involved than they ve been in recent years and report we need to enlarge the context, which is what eisenhower said You have to do if you have an intractable problem to look at the region, more widely to look at how to deter iran what to do on the north? border of Israel as well? So I all these solutions are worth considering, but what we can do is go back to just. For higher walls. Offences and increased effort to keep the palestinians cooped up in Gaza and the west bank, because that has failed to deliver security. Germany have just come back from five weeks in Israel and it is suffering a pain, unlike any other in its history, because of the actions of Hamas are prescribed terrorist

for the uk and other governments to think that? Does it? Did it feel too in israel that that that this will the beginning of a moment where there is a sort of stop and think really hard about How to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. I spoke to a few, people who saw the elder states, berne and intellectuals who write about these things. You could see that, but I think the public mood right now is that people are absolutely traumatized by what happens that trauma gets regularly renewed by stories of hostages and stories of some of the individuals who was who killed. The israelis keep repeat,

dignan awful grim killer, videos that were made at the time there is body cams and things like that and security cameras, and they keep showing those things having special screenings, germany, for example, because they wanted Keep, I think they in the outside world a reminder of what it is that they went through, and why is right. I feel so traumatized about things, europe The answer, and one of them ideas. I've told you lots of people by these things in the last few weeks, but they were Smasher answer perhaps, is to try and look at it regionally all this began on that day beginning this at the beginning of october, it is Americans were pushing for some kind of a deal between Israel. And the saudis-

as a continuation of those abraham accords. The president trump put in place mutual recognition And one of the things that I looked at my thought. Well, this ain't gonna work is the fact that the palestinians You seem to be almost an afterthought within all of that live with very strongly that it has the capacity to explode. And to galvanize the entire region in a way that no other issue does so what, if the Talks were recast and Israel was offered something pretty good. And this american political have often military. strength behind it, the saudi money and as part of that they would be palestinian independence, and there is the saudis put many years ago, but in two thousand and two they put a peace plan on the tape. we should send. She was full recognition in return for a palestinian state

in the nineteen sixty seven boundaries, in other words the captain in east Jerusalem and with some territorial adjustments, which was more or less what oslo was supposed to have been about and at the time that was pretty much ignored, western countries actually. So perhaps the time has come to try to do something like that, because, as I see it really struck me that this is both sides. There is. Sadly, there is continuity holistic feel too. The way things are going in the way that they can casualty list some mounting up, and I think that for rabies. To this sense, I felt I felt this people really in their hearts these same. What is really sad that these innocent people are dying, but maybe they're not innocent some? Maybe they supported him ass. I spoke to a soldier in

I was there and he said I didn't want to kill innocent people, but how many people are honest and he said eighty percent of these people support him as they hate us. They hate the Jews So I simply you re sentencing a cell to allow more than an he shrugged as if to say we ve got to protect the people is what he said but Daniel, and this is my real fear that we're deep in a zero sum place that could just keep getting worse and it's going to take an awful lot to pull back from that. But I also think that such a disruptive event when you pull back from it things can- and I like it- I don't want to be optimistic weather place for it, but things can move rapidly fast in directions that one does not expect and- and I agree with jeremy- That the regional peace could be it. Forward, but here we are paying the price for the trump abraham reports, because what they did was they. since the lesson to the israelis that you

have normalization without doing anything on the palestinian front. Israel will really hold out to make sure that that's the case with the saudis and others. I actually would go further and say you need to zoom out more and if you're actually gonna have a security pact, you probably need iran inside the deal rather than outside that since the lebanon hezbollah question, you had the iranian president in Riyadh at the organisation of the islamic conference, an arab league joint summit. I think we ve gotta be very open minded and creative about these. The quick thought no tickets, it's going to have to it's going to need outside help, isn't it that the story of this is not that it happens between Israel and the palestinians by themselves. It needs a new generation of visionary leadership in Israel and palestine. and it needs enormous amount about site help. I think we ve learned that trying to ignore palestinian issue does not work and so All of us, americans, europeans, british and the moderate

states need to get together to make a real push to try to break this cycle of violence, to make sure that the next generation of young people in Israel and palestine don't go through what they're going through now jeremy- you ve covered- so I may not not not with the intensity of this, but you ve, seen the same cycle of violence happen repeatedly yeah. and only looking a little better. None of these things are going to happen. While the current leaders are in place, there has to be a new generation, that's absolutely clear who it's going to be it's another issue. and there has to be a recognition that there are no military solutions. One thing that the history of the last hundred years of this conflict has shown, and my goodness everybody's try to the british tried it. It doesn't work so that less politics I

the problems now compared to even the nineties, why? I was so report covering the oslo peace process is the fact that the the neglect, the way that the conflict has been left to fester, has actually empowered extremists and that's a really difficult and dangerous thing. Extremists on both sides, and that should actually get can continue. If there is something and decisive well, we are just about out of time it's a very big topic. It's a hot topic, but I am grateful to all of you for that that you have come at it from from different perspectives. Daniel levy garda, commie, peter rickets, Jeremy, bowen and also earlier from washington, doktor evil in focus Well, our technical team was led by mark wilcox, the produces wishing eight he can and Louisa louis. The editor was aware: griffiths picture the scene

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