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with direct emotions, scorsese raging bull to the color of money, to good fellows to the departed to the recently released killers of the flower. For me, it's alive you see it's a living Let's changing from cut to cut potomac. Each project begins not when the filming ends, but he didn't I am given the script when Marty feels its ready to shoot, and I usually only have to read at once, because one of the great things about working with marty as an editor is that he is thinking like an editor all the time. The editing style has already been decided. Very much before he starts to shoot and once scorsese says action, then filmer is poised to look at the footage known deniz at the end of each shooting day, when I get the dailies

review them and make notes about them and then Marty and I sometimes on the same day, sometimes maybe on the weekend, look at the dailies together and he tells me what he thinks. I tell him what think from those notes and from the notes he gives the script supervisor on the set, which are very important? I begin to

hold an assembly of the film which is not an edit, but it might have two or three options for a line. For example, that he's told me he hasn't made up his mind which way to go then when he finishes shooting that's when we start editing the film entirely together. So when you see the dailies, how important is it to retain that kind of first impression of onesie? It's very important to retain the first impression and you never will get it again until you screen with an audience. That's very important in the editing that you make that sacred. That moment said those are the things that you'll note y'all made up of yet, for example, in colors of the flower moon when he shot the final testimony of dicaprio playing earnest.

and marty call me from the said. He's never done that before and said. I want you to know that I want to use. Take one of LEO only I dont want to cut away to anybody while we did have to finally cut away to the prosecutor saying the man he is talking about. Is there limits which plans to deniro, but otherwise we just held on that first take. It was so beautiful If the flower moon was an unusual shoot for thelma normally, shall we working close to west coast as ac is filming on occasions, even on the set itself. I do love being, said it's, I just don't have time and then on killers. I could. Even go to Oklahoma because of covered apple, had a very, very strict, sat up for testing everybody all the time and they wanted the fewest people there

so they could cut down. So the editing department stayed in new york and marty and I worked on zooms looking at the footage together over the years, thelma has occasionally had to work long distance, whiskers easy in the nineteen eighties on the last temptation of Christ, for example, it was impossible for her to travel The set in morocco, the dailies, were coming to new york to be developed, and I had to be, windscreen them every day to make sure everything was okay. In fact, on last temptation, when Marty shot the crucifixion, they had no money on that film. It was really arduous and when he shot the crucifixion, they had one day and the sun was going down at a certain point. So they had to get everything within this crucial day. When the dailies would come to me from morocco, they would sometimes come. I think, on some special plane. Maybe I would get them once a week and I would open the cans and sand would come out and

Marty was trying to find out from me how particularly the crucifixion went, and he could only get through to me. I'm some radio phone there was we won, and sometimes I couldn't hear him or he couldn't hear me. He kept saying to me- is the crucifixion okay did I get it? Did I get at them? I was crying when I saw the crucifixion in dailies, and so when Marty have me, is it ok I started to cry and he was yelling over this radio forwarded. It is no good I'm ruined at what happened. So as though, then he called me the next day and I started to come about, Finally, I was able to assure him that he got it,

as thelma says what was so arduous, but the last temptation of Christ is that they had to transport the reels by plane from morocco to the united states nowadays, that footage would be digital zipping across the world. In minutes. The thing about the changes that occur technologically is that their tools they dont make necessarily make greater films because digital came along, which is maybe but some people think is true, but in fact great masterpieces were made in the early days of filmmaking when they didn't even have any machine at all. They would measure the length of shots by how far their arm went out, that was a good links for a close up, for example, and the only time they saw their editing was when it was projected and they gradually things like movie

came along, and then we had flat beds, and now we have digital. Now I can speed up or slow down the film. I can change the color of it. I can turn it upside down. I can mix with twenty four soundtracks we used to mix with only two. It's really wonderful to have these tools. I just think you have to. a great idea for a movie to you. Listening, the documentary in the studio from the BBC well service with me fronting stock and film gunmakers, oscar winning editor of films, including raging both the aviator and the irishman, suddenly my queen- is ripped off me and my room is full of white men

So I'm done for these officious. They found where I live lives. This ordinary is the podcast from the BBC well service, bringing extraordinary personal stories from around the globe. Betrayal answer my life and unscrew my and store. I was just all alone despise broken system I gave out my dream search lives, this ordinary, wherever you get your bbc podcasts films journey to becoming an editor back in the nineteen sixties was something of a mystery to it was purely a series of accidents. Fortunate. I was born in algeria, because my father worked for the standard oil company. He and my mother were american and they met and married in paris. They were moved to help

he had just as world war. Two was opening up and down. We were evacuated from there after a year, my mother, loved algeria- she didn't want to leave, but anyway, were evacuated to lisbon, were all the refugees were coming from europe and the euro. It's his government rented a line or to take all the americans back to new york. Then my father was sent to the island of rubies and the caribbean, and I was there until I was fifteen and where he was transferred back to the new york office. Some I felt very strange being in america point because it was more homogenous, whereas on the island of a rumour there were people from the czechoslovakia, Australia, france,

britain and my mother loved that world? Am I enjoyed it too, and it just felt a little sort of limited when I came to the to the united states, so I decided I would like to become a diplomat, so I could go back to that kind of world and I studied political science on the russian language. The only thing there was to teach us was an army handbook, so I firstly had a say in russian. I'm going on fur allowed to mark up and took the state department, exams and an past, but they did a stress interview at the end of it. With an fbi. Person is cia. Personally find out what your political feelings are, and they asked me if you're at an embassy in a south african somebody asked you what you think of apartheid. What would you say- and I said well, I would say it's terrible- has to end

as well as the diplomat. You can't do that until the united states government is ready to state that they you're gonna be very unhappy here. You're too liberal we were, you know against the vietnam war. We were supporting martin luther king in the south and they said why don't you go The usa, which I think is like your british council and I didn't I'm too, but I found a job with someone directing the first peace corps. Program to sierra leone. I worked on that forbid and then I saw an ad in the new york times, which never happens. It said willing to train assistant film amateur then she applied for job. For which she had no relevant experience and even watch movies. Much growing up, I had seen films, on television when we came to the states- we didn't have television in aruba and

my mother would only allow us to see certain things, but she worked as a nursery school. And when I would come home early from high school, I would term on the tv set and when she came back from work, you have put her hand on the tv sets chief and one of the film I saw on this famous program called million dollar movie, which score Ceci was watching at the same time was the life and death of criminal blimp, and I had no idea about movies. I liked older movies. I noticed- and this proves was amazing. It would run the film nine times in in a week, and marty would watch if it was an archers film. When he saw the arrow go into the target. He would watch that. Nine times if his mother would lead him, but sometimes she would give me that, while I don't wanna hear that again, so

wade's, interesting that that early on, I saw a film that moved me so deeply little knowing that I would later and marry the men practice and the man she later married was directed michael power who, along with producer emirate press burger, made up the arches film partnership. They made such classics of bushes and more as a matter of life and death and the red shoes, as well as that, more time drama, friendship and romance captivated young thelma, the life and death of colonel blimp. Zealots returned return to the nineteen sixties and thelma's spotting a job at that, I answered this ad in the new york times and it was a terrible man from allay who was butchering the films of great european directors True foe, a rustling me, maybe

them shorter for late night television slots at two in the morning, so I worked with him for a little I had to bring him a quart of whisky every day and. I did learn a little bit about negative cutting because we were lifting scenes out of these great movies and then at one point a whole real out of rocco in his brothers one of this country's greatest rooms. and even I knew that was outrageous, and I decided I had to leave. I just couldn't take it anymore, and I saw an ad for a six weeks course at what was called washington university then, which became part of new york in over a city, and I went there and they divided up into little groups of ten to make a little five minute movie and when we were close to finishing the faster said, is there anyone here look and knows how to cut negative, because Martin score says he's student film has been

correctly crap and I wonder if there's someone who can help him try and put it back together. So I said well I'll, try and there. He was he'd been up for three days. I think editing I slowly tried to help him put the film back and some sort of way that could work, and from that point on, I think he felt I was someone he could trust to do. It was right for his films and marty went to bust. to hollywood and I couldn't work with him. He wanted me to come there to work with him, but I couldn't work with him. I wasn't in the union

they had entered into very early schools, easy film and where you who's, that knocking at my door in nineteen sixty seven but he's early features like mean streets and taxi driver with the work of other editors, though, were Martin were eventually reunited professionally on raging ball, which was released in nice and eighty or when winkler the producer got me in the union somehow and I was allowed to work in hollywood as long as I had us by editor on both costs for the entire duration of the edit, which was rather long, and so there I was suddenly on this big hollywood studio. Sat m. I'd, never seen anything like this. I never had assistance. I used to put my trims away myself and now. Suddenly I had three assistance and stand by editor and they were shooting the fight

These four raging bore for almost six weeks and then Marty and I started editing the movie together. We I just want to make clear we always edit his movies together. I get way too much credit for health. the great editor. I knew nothing about editing when I first met him with his alchemy, between directing and cutting skills at any room for raging, bull became a testing to the experiments that we were making in the editing were so fascinating em, but based on his beautiful design, particularly of the camera moves, and he had learned from Michael Paul

that changing the speed with Emma shot is sometimes very effective. Now Michael says that he sometimes change the speed of a shot within half man in the moon and sometimes five or six times within the same shot and marty was seeing that he was picking up on that when he was watching these movies as a teenager, and so one of the most beautiful things you see, enraging bull is the way he will change the speed. Maybe say. Jake lama has knocked down sugar, ray robinson and he's waiting for him to get up and go back in and as he's waiting, it's slow motion

As he moves back in to pommel sugar ray. The camera starts coming back up to twenty four frames, a second and it's something that your average viewer might not notice, but you're feeling something, and that is through out raging bull, for example, when the final fight that a jake La Motta had with sugar ray robinson and he would not go down, jake Lamotta never went down, and sugar ray was obviously going to win. The fight

He can't get jake Lamar to stop, so he pulls back to think about what to do, and meanwhile jake le modest and come on come on encouraging to pummeling some more and marty designed this beautiful shop as sugar ray pulls back. The camera slows down and the lights come down and all you here is the breathing of sugar ray, which is actually the breathing of an animal and as he decides to go back in one more time to try and not check them out of it down. The camera comes back up to speed. The lights come back up and that's one of the beautiful things that marty designed that was so stemming from me

to be part of an get it to work right and so the whole experience of regional was just amazing. I learned so much and if I am forced to say what is my favorite film of his, I hate that question, but I have to say that it because I learned so much on it and much. I guess of of what you learned on raging. Bull was what you're describing there, which is the kind of organic effect that watching something and listening to something can have on us, but it also- and this is where editing is so important- it's the way that we react to the succession.

images: isn't it it's? It's all our senses are engaged, and that is also what do you have been doing over the decades? Oh, yes, I mean, you know how you build. Various cuts is so important to the how a film works and actually recently are films, have gotten more simple and more interested in silence and letting an audience really spend some time with a character, political killers and flower moon and really begin to engage with them the so our style of work has changed a bit recently. It's less about incredible camera moves and things like that It's it's more about letting the audience engage with the characters

it was on a visit to the set of raging bull in the late nineteen seventies. That director Michael Powell made a crucial observation. He influenced the choice of black and white on reaching bull, because he was watching video tapes of deniro training, Emma Jim he said to Marty, there's something wrong about the red gloves and marty said my god, you write, it should be black and white. You might expect from this anecdote that Michael Paul and thelma spent much of their time together, discussing editing techniques, interesting- No, it's interesting. I don't know why, but Michael clay

He never went in the editing room, there's a good reason why Paul didn't spend much time if any in the cutting room. His was a specific, very disciplined method, so carefully had a preconceived, the structure that he only ever filmed one take as it's purest. This led to a studio based production with music design and cinematography all aligned. You can see it in elements of the red shoes or black narcissus or entirely in the tales of Hoffmann Michael Powell called it. The composed film but the composed films about music music was so important to Michael in the red shoes. You hear la montaigne say: the music is the master; only the music is the master and Michael gradually overtime became more and more in love with music,

many films based on opera, for example, and what he decided to do was to ask a composer to create a piece of music for a specific seen, for example, when the mad numb sister Ruth in black narcissus is thinking about killing Deborah car who place sister clodagh and his ringing. The bell outside on the edge of a cliff as she moves to war. Sir Michael wanted to have the composers music broken down by him by Michael into what action. What shot would he shoot to cover say? Six bars of the music and when he was shooting to make sure that what he was left.

down was going to fit, though six bars bar for bar and its extremely effective will marty talked with Michael about it. He decided to do it in good fellows and he used a beautiful piece of music Laila. The when de niro is getting rid of all the people who did the big robbery with him. So they're not around to testify marty created certain bars of leila for each one of those people being knocked off and he was playing the musical the sap to make sure that his shots were fitting, and then I and the editing room had to make sure that when we put it all together than it was working at way, Marty has one of the greatest gifts for putting music to film of anybody who has ever made movies No to the final part of the editing persist with everything wondrously.

together, there's a moment where the film clicks, but takes time and you ll have to screen with audiences to feel wax like this is why test screenings coming in front of a handful of people with a trusted friends and colleagues who are selected focus group. We scream a lot of time so that we can feel the audience in each of these. And then we question people afterwards, we debris from afterwards we're watching. You know our people moving are they board? Are they laughing in the right place are laughing in the wrong place? You can feel in the room how a film is playing and that's very important to us

the man at one point, for example, in a casino where there's a possibility and I's going to be removed and we were showing it to the agents. They were sitting in front of Marty and me, and just and a private little screaming and whimpering that I almost they all went. Oh my god and so Marty said how many times do we cut to this, and I said about six more times he said. I think we should cut that yeah

because the there there are things that we that will go on in our heads beyond what we see on the screen. Anyway, it has been made a millionaire I've. I've heard you quotes Michael Palin, saying that you know you need to keep ahead of of the audience. I mean that is an interesting thing for editing as well, because the audience is actually smarter than you might think. Rationally. Respect for your audience is so important and, and one of the things that marty hates is when a movie tells you what to think he absolutely hates that and Michael would never do that. He always said to us. First of all, never explain know that your audience is ahead of you. You try and stay ahead of them and challenge them make them feel it don't tell them what to think

The version that reaches cinemas will be the final cut, with possibly another final cut for streaming service. So I wanted to know how many versions of film there will be before a paying audience gets to see it. We're lucky enough to have enough editing time, which square

as he is able to get to sometimes do as many as twelve cuts of the movie and the gradual shaping of the movie. The structuring of the movie takes time, and I don't think enough. Editors are given enough time these days to do that, but fortunately we have it. It's very, very important because it's really interesting to watch the film it's shape change and it gets shorter and sometimes we have to drop our favorite scenes in a movie because of the length and that's so painful. It's like cutting off your leg. You know because you've been working on this wonderful scene and you just love it and you have to drop it. It's ah, but that's your job. So typically you have to sit.

Too many times what we finally see. I think just the endurance of that. How do you do it I mean, and when it comes to the later stages, the all night at it's all that kind of thing you know what most people think is that it's boring, but it's not because everytime I'm looking at it, I'm really checking. Is this working now restarting the shot at the right place? Are we ending at the right place. So for me it's alive. You see it's a living thing, that's changing from cut to cut and sometimes we'll find, for example, that we dropped something and we're missing it. Now when we screen it, we say: oh, no, that was a mistake. We have to put that back in people. Don't maybe not quite understand that when you get dailies, it consists of say a wide shot may be of everybody. Then you have a close up

of one of the characters, then you have close ups of the other characters and your job of an editor is to decide how much of the wide shot to use, how much of the close up to use? Who do you, favor in the scene, whose character you to build so you have all these different shots and your job is to put it together. and make it move as if it was intended that way, so we make thousands thousands of decisions. I don't think most people understand how separate these elements are. The close ups said the two shots on the they're, the same lines being laid down but indifferent, railings and those different framework, or every you ve been listening to thelma skin maker on the document tree in the studio from the bbc well service. It was presented by me phronsie, stock and produced by stephen hughes

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