This podcast is supported by affixes class of one nine starring, kate mara and brian Tyree Henry. As two f b, I agents who are part of an exceptional training class that is destined to change. The bureau chosen who they were with no idea who they would become these. Hence, in their classmates, make an indelible mark on a justice system that is rapidly changing through the use of technology, and a I affects is class of oh nine. Now streaming only on hulu from new york times, I'm like old, This is a daily today. During men have has found former president donald trump legally liable for sex the abusing and defaming the writer Jeanne Carroll and his ordered him to pay her. Billions of dollars in damages, my colleague ben wiser, tells the story.

of how a newly thirty year old allegation reached this moment the it's Wednesday may tenth. Then good evening. I know its leaves its aid, p m. So thank you for making time for us. Of course, Michael. Can you just describe where exactly you are you Michael? I am personally in the press room of the state the courthouse house that the southern district of new york and lower me unhappy, where we just finished, covering a major trial. The trial over the lawsuit brought by aging carroll, who would suit donald trump, accusing them of rape, and I want to get to that key. That trial and, ultimately to the verdict.

what it means, but I want to start with Ben the unrest, did and ways improbable legal journey that brought asian care His case to this point so tell us that story this case stemmed from an incident that occurred in the midnight in ninety when eating carol. They prominent advice columnist for EL magazine into europe, said She had a chance encounter with donald trump. Will. Thank you for your trust, and for this I think it's I think it's really important right in, of course, are called megan too. We actually interviewed aging carol about this allegation for an apple the daily that ran back and twenty nineteen. That's right for me: can you walk through,

What happened this particular day? You were at been at the studio where you and I wanted to shop for something I can't remember what it was. She went shopping after work at bergdorf, goodman of bury you know luxury to. In store on stiff avenue may happen here. outside stark, so unless it is six thirty, maybe someday, What like this resource as usual san there, we made a gesture like you held up his hand, held him and as she's leaving right through a revolving glass door. She comes into donald trump, and he can't do he said that if I say- and I said you're that real estate mogul he said come advise me, I want to give gifts. This is John. Oh boy,.

I said yes, I asked him who it was for. He said a girl and trump said he was there to buy a present or a pearl that that was what she said and asked carol. The advice columnists to advise him just having such an engaging time, because I have donald trump Inter he is- my advice on life, will this has happened? Why are you so thrilled this down falcon I've got it just delicious who's here my wife for girl right my ally and is this? Is it you know you can tell it also once written for saturday night lie, and I she said you, she thought this would just be a great story to tell her friends later and at he said, lingerie or nation and he is- he may have said underwear, but I have the impression restarted gaza, the esa. We want whatever for luxury resign, and

you walked in on the left, there was nothing there and It was a it looked like a film, a sort of see through great and when you picked it up, I can see it was about two years ago for design and then see, rose and say this is terrific It is true that you as it now it goes with your eyes, There was a little bit better back and forth, which I was loving And I was latin and he won't like this. Towards addressing agitated. two laughing out loud thinking. I'm make put these bodysuit over his pants, that is the sky, and I'm thinking this is going to be. The funniest thing I never see them. I I've got a picture in my head is where one can go like this and put it on that's what I'm saying

walking in I pass him. He shut the door and especially against the wall and jesse, I will continue and that's what I said pushing back and ask recycling forward and that's when he put his weight against me and he has to free hands with his shoulders. Here the drivers leaning into you, holding me against the and One of his hands were under in between the flask michael pull down my tides, not all the way down, and he ran his it was wrong looking anyway whether it was looking through my vagina. I guess it's true that it hurt, and so

It had to be, with the other hand, as he held a he's unzipped his pants. Now he could have been buckled in I dunno. He could have a button to that. Pretty soon he had the tight stem his penis in his hand and inserted it. Originally. it was all away and it was not long ago time and again, I am How long will it be? Grimly losses and what did you just ass? I may at the time, the hidden. When members, I don't know. I dont know what I did. I have no idea, numbers. That's what I try to stop as well. how'd, you get my needs to get him all right. I got I got this near just so enough to death

there were so pushing back up either one the escalator She struggles to break free and ultimately does and police the store and effort, instinct is to call one of her. Close friends LISA burn back a journalist and alter in new york, and she were counting. Sadly, what happened? Lisa tells her daughter, the police, you ve, been raped, she taught to another friend. Carol. Martin a day later, deuce anchor in new york, she said duncan police donald trump has honey. the lawyers that most area and that's that route she talks. He decided to tell nobody. She swore her friends to secrecy and tat

script for more than twenty years, and so it's not until two thousand and nineteen when she writes a book about women's bad experiences with men that she includes her own story with mister trump, and that section is excerpted in new york magazine before the book comes out and it is published in june, and that is the first time that agent carol went public with her allegation that trump had raped her. I remember reading that piece. We all read that piece. Donald trump was president at the time and it was a bombshell excerpt from her book. That's right and trump attacks her viciously. He says it never happened and he adds you know. She's, not my type, but agent carol was unable to hold trump legally accountable for this alleged attack. The statute of limitations for criminal action had long run, and many women didn't

can help where you're, who claim it and sexually assaulted and in many cases years ago, what we're in a similar situation, but then everything changed in new york, state law members who were moved by allegations from all kinds of women, certainly also by the force of the need to move the raft, a very unusual law and it grants people who say they are some five. Sexual offences. A new one year will down in which they can file a loss, alleging abuse, sexual abuse and even if it occurred decades ago, had even if, before this law was passed, the statute of limitations with barred any such legal action- and you know, Michael one of the key proponents of this law- was aging carroll and

when lawmakers were considering creating this law, she went to albany spoken, a noose conference at the capital alongside sexual abuse survivors and she sent passion. Letters to assembly members calling for the law to be passed. She said in one of them. I stayed silent for years after I was attacked and by staying silent, lost my chance to hold MIKE attacker, accountable and then good morning. I want to make sure we stared practically on time, because people have waited long. that law did pass so proud in a matter of minutes, then I'll sign the adult survivors out with our incredible sponsors.

creates a one year, looked back window for it and that one year window in which sex abuse survivors could file acid opened on thanksgiving day november. Twenty fourth of twenty twenty two and I checked the court docketed and sure enough minutes after midnight aging carol filed. Alas, it under the new law against donald trump, accusing him a break, but there's an important copy it to this law. It allows only for civil servants, not criminal charges. They don't. Please arresting anybody, it doesnt put anyone behind bars, but it does allow a survivor. Sexual abuse to seek damages and try to hold their abuse or a cannibal, financially and also reputation. Why so very interesting? The aging carol can now use this law that she's personally push for and has now passed to hold

tromp accountable for this alleged rape in a way that without this law would I have been legally possible, that's right, but you know. It's one thing to be able to bring unless it is another thing to prove, especially when it's an allegation that dates back decades. Hmm, Hmm all the way back this box. Supported by affixes class of one nine starring, kate, mara and brian Tyree Henry. As two f b, I agents who are part of an exceptional training class that is destined to change, the bureau chosen, who they were with no idea where they would become these hence in their classmates, make an indelible mark on a justice system that is rapidly changing through the use of technology and a I affects is class of oh nine, now streaming only on hulu,

I'm alina baronne lou, I'm john branch, I'm an editor for the new york times are right for the talks with fascinates about basketball. Sneakers is how they can be markers of both high fashion and performance. Nobody here the squeaking sounds of sneakers on a vast clockwork. There's a scientific principle behind that called stick slip by talking alivia Sani she's designing these incredibly ordinate basketball, shoes she's, also one of the very few women to design sneakers for the biggest male athletes. Every time the sneaker grabs the hardwood floor, it's sticky, knicks and unstuck in the stickied unstuck in creating a sound. When I look at a basketball sneaker, I see design, that's impacting our culture at so many different levels. Besides just sports, when I started reporting on why sneakers squeak, I came to understand that we hear this type of sound all around us from the street the violin car tyres, even spiny. Lobster the new york times explore how we bring more of life to life

I times dot com, slash life. So then tell us about this trial, this civil trial and what the legal burdens are for E jean carroll, exactly Michael, you know in a criminal case, the standard of proof is very try to find somebody guilty of a crime. It's we all know it is called beyond a reasonable doubt, but in a civil case which this is, the standard is much lower. So, for example, for ms carroll to prove battery, which is the term that means an assault and covers the alleged rape. She merely had to prove by a preponderance, said. The evidence which has the judge when it out today simply means more likely than not

People say it's like one. Tenth of a percent more than fifty percent possible. So, as you can see, it's a much lower standard of proof than would be needed in a criminal trial got it and, as this case was filed, it also included an account of defamation. Ms Carroll said that donald trump had defamed her harmed her reputation because of statements he posted last october on his social media, the top through social hm when he called her taste, a complete con job, a hoax and a lie, and he said- and while I'm not supposed to say it, I will this woman is not my type. He reiterated that, and so this lawsuit went to trial a couple of weeks ago in the federal court here on two counts: one was battery the accusation that he had raped her and the other was defamation and the suit sought amateurs money damages for these two acts. So once this trial starts, what is the case that either

when carol and her lawyers present to the jury. The case begins with aging carol herself steves, the main witness in the case. She testifies over several days and she tells her story in graphic detail about what happened and the rest of the trial was largely witnesses, another ten or so called by her lawyers, who all bolster her account in some way or another. The two friends that she talks to immediately after the assault, they completely confirm that you told them about it those days right afterwards. So, even though this is nearly thirty years old, there is a contemporaneous account essentially given by two friends, and they describe in different ways how she told them. What had happened and its largely sorry. She told the jury early ran as we ve come to understand. Contemporaneous accounts. You know People who say I was told something happened at the time have become very important in

trials and in cases of sexual assault. This absolutely right, especially when there is no other contemporaneous report being made, whether it to the police or to a doctor, for example, and to other witnesses who appeared has defined at the trial that they were also assaulted by Donald trump years ago. One jessica leads, a former stockbroker testified that trumpet groped her kissed her without our consent on an airplane in the nineteen seventies and as a story of a former writer for people magazine said that when she was at mar a lago interviewing trump, he lured her into a re cluster against a wall and kissed her without her consent. Those two accounts had enough relevance to miss carroll's allegation that the judge allowed both

when the testify on her behalf guy, presumably because the judge felt that they might help establish a pattern. That's right, Michael and in addition to witnesses who were called by eating carol. You are the one man who was not it

trial donald trump made his presence known in several ways? One was a tape that by now is notorious, and probably everybody's heard of that the so called access. Hollywood tape didn't automatically attracted to beautiful. I just kissing them. It's like a mag which surfaced in twenty sixteen and when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything, but everyone grab them by the pussy and on it from brags and crew terms about his ability to grab the genitals of women, and this councillors played him, because what donald trump actually says in that tape in some ways again supports eating cows. Argument that that's what he did to her and I might add that eg Carroll's lawyers deposed donald trump.

last fall asked him questions under oath and he was did you take, and he also appeared in that video at the trial. They played it for the jury. Are you familiar? I'm sure you are with something that is often referred to as the access hollywood tape. Yesterday, in carols, lawyers asked him in their deposition brunette video position about his claim that, as a celebrity was stars, he put it. He was able to rob women by the generals. You could do anything, that's what you said, colonel historically, that's true stores stars and his response was well historically, that's true with stars, and so the lawyer, roberta catalan, poor, miss carol, says it's true with stars from says. Well, that's what it's! If you look over the last million years, I guess that's been lodged.

We do not always but large, later, unfortunately, a fortune, I guess that's been largely true. Many since, unfortunately, or fortunately, and that's what the jury heard him say and watched him say at the trial So in a sense by the time, eating carols presentation is finished. Established her claim. They have established that corroborated contemporaneously in conversations with friends, The stab donald trump has allegedly done this to other women, and they have shown a video in which donald trump too, it's about his feeling making do this kind thing to women and men, the deposition. He isn't really did

having said it or the fundamental sentiment, that it represents. That's right, seven. What about the defense? What kind of a defense does Donald trump mount in this civil case, so trump's lawyers presented no witnesses on his behalf. None none and, of course, Donald trump himself, who could have been a witness, did not come to the court. He did not attend the trial and he did not testify on his own behalf. Do you understand why that was their strategy? Well, it's still unclear to me if the defense really wanted donald trump to testify. You know I'm not sure, given his position his

Denial that this happened, how much more he went about it trump was not acknowledging. You didn't, seem eating Carl or been with her that night at the store and his own lawyer, Jos attack opinion essentially said that he didn't need witnesses and attack appeal, told the jury. Who would we even call for the wit? stan, you know how do you prove a negative, but without any witnesses on his behalf is simply the defence presented by donald trump and through his lawyer, Joseph tech appeal was carried out through cross examination of miss carroll and her witnesses witless carol. Mr tech appeal focused on the fact that she is not going to the police, that is, it I had occurred in a very popular luxury department store where nobody had been there to see it. Late and also the fact that you couldn't actually remember the precise date this occurred in the lawsuit. Miss carol simply said that the record occurred some time in the midnight tonight, isn't

in a defined ninety. Ninety six in the trial she was even down to early spring of ninety ninety six, but there is no day an essentially tech appeal was saying. This is such an important thing that happened. You can't even tell us when it happened and one of the most kidded moment stirring the trial was three. Mr tappin is cross examination of ms carol when he basically asked why she, had not screamed for help, and he went through a series of questions and she found me said: I'm not a screamer. She said she was in a panic. She was fighting. She said you can't beat up on me for not screaming embassy tat computers that he wasn't beating up on her, but miss carol. Her voice rising said from the witness stand that women often keep silent about an attack because they fear being asked what they could have done to stop. It they're always asked why? Don't you see

I meant you said, I'm telling you be raped me whether I screamed or not so trumps lawyer in it. It's not tear this. Hugely successful is trying to portray aging jean as an untrustworthy teller of this story. That's right and trump's lawyer also made very clear that in his view, the closet was a scam That miss hale had brought it for status and political reasons, any argued that she was doing a fine. You know she had gotten a lot of publicity for her back and had gotten more well now, and he said it. Donald trump doesnt have a story. tell her other than to say it's a lie that pretty much summed up the argument I'm curious what you were thinking Ben as this case come. close and gets handed to the jury. You always think when you're watching a case-

How will the jury react end but made this such a mystery? Is that for some very specific reasons, and unlike most trials, The story was completely anonymous. Usually we can find out the names of girls and something about them when there be interviewed in the pre trial, jury selection process, but the judge here, except the concern that, if the jurors' identities were known, they could possibly be subject to harassment or worse by supporters of MR trump or by anybody who was unhappy with the decision. So then that brings tuesday morning. The jury has the case. I had expected them to need a lot of time. They didn't they data. Just a few hours left right, you listen,

three hours, they came back with a verdict. There were no notes. The questions. No one was asking for testimony to be read back. The dreary came back very quickly for any case, but certainly for this kind of case, where the verdict and just workers through that very cause, it's a little in common, So when the jury took the case, they had a lot of questions before them, but in essence, it asked did miss carol, prove by a preponderance of the evidence, which is to say, more likely than not that MR trump had raped, miss carol ass. She accused him or something less than the option was

of sexually abusing this caroline. That's what the jury chest. They did not say he raped her, but they said that she has proven that he had sexually abused her, which also meant that they believe that the two of them had been at the store together and then run had a solitary, which you remember, he denied everything he denied, even knowing her being at the store or any aspect of her allegation got it. The jury also went through a series of questions on the defamation claims. She had fired and ultimately found it. He had the faint her and eventually, when you add it all up, awarded her five. Billion dollars in damages to compensate for both the impact of the sexual abuse, as well as the harm to her reputation. That was done by the young defamatory statement centred social. Then, how does you interpret that alternate verdict? How'd, you make sense of it. I got

of course we don't. We don't know for sure. We can't talk to the jurors, as I said they were anonymous, but even though the jury did not find that crump rate miss carroll and instead found that he sexually abused her overwhelmingly. I think this is a verdict against him, and agent Carroll certainly saw this as a victory today. She she said, after court, in the statement I filed this lawsuit against trumped up clear my name and get my life back, and he said today World dominoes, the truth, then it strikes me that you have covered several most important cases stemming from the meat to movement, the case of Jeffrey Epstein. the alleged cereal abuse of young women and the trial of his long time, partner, Glenn, Maxwell and now trump

When we think about the meaning of the me to move man, it ultimately is holding powerful people, mostly men, accountable for how they women as hard to think of any one more powerful than the former president of united states? That's right and you know, there's been a lot of cheap. In recent years. And thirdly, the meat you movement has made its forced out in a very important way, but this is a first. This is a former president of the united. who had been accused by multiple women over the years of sexual misconduct and for the first time, one of those women has been able to hold him accountable in a trial in a federal court.

and wherever, wherever this goes, and whatever other cases are there there's no question that it's a kind of milestone. I would thank legally socially and it's gonna resonate Thank you very much represent. Thank you michael for having, on tuesday night trump said that he plans to appeal the jury's verdict. Meanwhile, one of the new of legislators Both the law that allowed aging carol to suit from state senator brad oilman said that the voting demonstrated why the law was needed. Parliament said quote: there should be no limit on survivors. Bringing their abusers to justice

What right back. This podcast is supported by affixes class of oh nine, storing, kate, mara and Brian Tiree, Henry as to FBI agents, who are part of an exceptional training class that is destined to change. The bureau chosen who they were with no idea where they would become these hence in their classmates, make an indelible mark on a justice system that is rapidly changing through the use of technology, and a I affects is class of oh nine. Now streaming only on hulu Here's what else you need today on tuesday night, president Biden and how speaker Kevin Mccarthy emerged, a high stakes meeting at the white house with new

consensus on how to avoid a financial crisis? When the government hits it's dead, ceiling on june. First can no longer pay its bills. Everybody in this meeting reiterated that and they were, I didn't see any no movement present that the staff should get back together, both sides stuck to their original bargaining position with by demanding that congress raised the death ceiling unconditionally and Mccarthy insisting that such a move be accompanied by big spending, cuts speaking to report afterward mccarthy, expressed frustration with the president why asked them numerous times. Are there some places wicked fine savings? He wouldn't give me any so I'm hopeful that will be able to find it And after a newly three month, medical absence from the senate that, through to do railed democrats, agenda, Diane Feinstein, would turn

washington on tuesday night. Her return overseas a democratic majority to the Senate judiciary committee. Where Democrats need her vote to confirm federal judges and conduct investigation into the ethics of supreme court. Justices Feinstein had asked to be least on the committee by a fellow Democrat but republicans blocked the move, making her return increasingly urgent to these episodes. was produced by Stella TAN Alec stern, clear, tennis, getter it was edited by lex he d out any teens original music by a leash youtube eating. Damn power and marion lozano, and was engineered by chris wood. Our theme music, By jim gone and then land of wonderingly special thing

to look for. Dialogue and kate, christa back the That's it for the daily I'm like over. See. This podcast is supported by affixes class of oh nine, storing, kate, mara and Brian Tiree, Henry as to FBI agents, who are part of an exceptional training class that is destined to change. The bureau chosen who they were with no idea who they would become these. hence in their classmates, make an indelible mark on a justice system that is rapidly changing through the use of technology and a high affects is class of oh nine. Now streaming only on hulu,