So much has changed over the past few years. Oh yeah, the shift, a remote work supply chain demands. Sustainability. Concerns can be tougher leaders to keep up, but we're here to help. I'm a leaf here and I'm Josh klein where the hosts have built for change a podcast from rec center and built for change. We've talked with leaders from every corner of the business world to learn how they're harnessing change to totally reinvent their companies and how you can do it to subscribe to built for change now to get new episodes whenever they drop hey. It's michael, this weekend eu something a little different from our colleagues here at the new york times today, an interview with elon musk, one of the most consequential complicated and contracts show people of our time. Just a few days ago, musk sat down with business almost andrew or Sorkin, for an interview before live audience. Its

more workable conversation sorkin, presses mosque on a recent public controversy, but he also explore Mosques, ideas about a variety of topics, freedom of speech, technology, optimism, aliens and screen time it was all part of a series of allied interviews put together by our colleagues at deal book with significant leaders, including vice president como, harris and former, how speaker Kevin Mccarthy, if you will hear them all, you can listen on our end, whitey audio up or search deal book summit. Where ever you get your pot gas now, here's end. whilst working in conversation with elon musk to my mind, is often feels like very wild storm We have a storm,

This is Andrew ross sorkin with the new york times and you're. Listening to the best interviews from our annual dealbook summit event recorded, live yesterday in new york city. Good evening everybody man you so much for being with us throughout the day, and I couldn't be more pleased to sit with iran mosque. As our final interview of this remarkable time, we ve all had together. Doesn't need much of an introduction. But I was going to say a couple of things and he's the richest person in the world very well be the most canal, most consequential individual in the world right now. He wants the most innovative companies in the world, tesla spacex starlink, which is that you're awake the boy company acts his ex, got a I and he's disrupted.

Should these lanes he's moved at breakneck speed, but he's faces some controversy in the process. joins us today following a visit, as you all know so. Well, we discussed earlier on Monday to Israel, where he met with the prime minister there and the present. Israel and we'll talk about everything, and my hope is that we can talk about how he thinks about his influence about his power, about all of it and we're going to talk about innovation and everything else, and I want to say just two other things: real quick to how we met each other for the first time. Sixteen years ago, lanka, it's been a long time and all this The three has what when we first met, I don't think you're just you're about to deliver your first roadster until you have liar page was still waiting to get like two thousand, so two, seventy thousand a I remember going back to the newsroom in saying I think I just met the next steve jobs and it was a moment of hope.

to that end, I hope so. But what has happened between when I first met you and now, you came to deal hope and boring. That's for where I actually taken by drove origami thousands well, you came to deal book and sat on the stage and work were were thrilled to have you back, but there's been stolen. if that happens between now and then and there's been so much has happened in the past week week and a half and a lot of folks, called me up and say you really, you really gonna host you, I must gear. Can you believe what he just said on on twitter on one x? Do what twitter is a programmer. Should you platform him, that's what they said: Could you platform and I said I think it is our role. issues with germany, has a platform you have two journalists oftentimes, but I it's our role to have conversations and to inquire and

two and sometimes even interrogate ideas and nuts. I'm hoping we can do so I want to start just so we can begin. conversation you just level said: take us through everything that happened. If you could everything no overlap, we can. I have your god, we work in it. We ve got you send out a post story exe tweet ottawas, whatever I asked planchet when things were disappointed does it meets s comment. We act like a bunch of little those chirping, but when point which you put like three r, goes on its like it's very long, tweet So here we are more discriminating and at some point where you were, but you right, responding to another tweet. This is the actual truth and its set off a firestorm of criticism, all the way to the white house right and then you make this trip to Israel of africa

If left the platform people calling well, the trip to Israel is independent of of it wasn't something like that apollo theater on him clear. That was, let's talk about that suggests, to take us back to the moment. you write that traditional sort of repetitive we'll get like in response to that. It all was. Let's do it will do rose someone. I have no problem being hated by the way. I hear it away well, but you know what let's go straight to that for a second term, because there is an idea- and you could say that I think your willingness to want to be like a railway. This I do not have that. Let me ask you this than theirs,

it's different you're saying I don't care if anyone likes me or they hate me, but given your power and given what you have amassed and the importance you have, I would think you'd want to be trusted. I would think maybe you don't need to be liked or hated, but trusted matters if, if x is going to become financial platform, where people are going to put their money where people where, where the government's going to give you money for rockets where people are going to get into the cars, they need to ultimately decide that you are there. They don't have to say that they they love you but then you are ultimately a decent and good human, be yes, I'm alive. I think I am but I am certainly not going to do some sort of tap dance, deprived people that I am as as for trust rather than break that down a few ways. If you want satellites, over reliably. Space acts will do eighty percent of all,

Moreover, this year, china, with the twelve percent the rest the world or to eight that includes boeing lockheed and everyone else, so the track record of the rocket is the best. By far of anything you you could you could hate my guts next, you could not trust me. It is relevant. Rocket track. Record speaks for itself with respect to test that we make the best cars whether you hide your life hate me like me, are enough our indifference doing the best car or do not once did s car so I will certainly not not pander and johnson, like the only reason I'm here is because you are a friend like what was my speaking fee, example, I'm andrew, but Ok, second of all, no other by very long ties- aachen. Yes, listen. You know

What are you gonna illustrated that sometimes I said. I think the I think there are a lot of people. type, but where the big limped, let me go back You should hear the sketches s now wouldn't posed by the way. Those are really good. say unfortunately, fortunately unforeseen whatever framework we have baby, don't talk to other than that much, but let me It is faster. where am I that doesn't materialize, because that is what we are here because you're your friend, not because I a paddle, because I need any validation or anything, and I promise you I'd be here and Why I'm here? Why privilege of being another reason? But let me ask you this this than you write this tweet. That says that this is the actual truth. People read that tweet there and they say you are a mosque

die semite that his whiling up this base, your hearing, it from, as I said, the white house, your hearing it from jewish groups all over. I can Jonathan green buy from the idea was here. This there's lots of people who say this and by the way, it's not just that the whole thing I did and that's why we're nazareth announces chosen by someone. What you just wait, stop another was absent. There is absolute, yes, but that's the thing that struck me. It wasn't

and I'm an american jew. It wasn't just the people whose who had the that view. It was actually people who really are anti semites. Who said, oh, my goodness, go elon. This is fabulous and that actually was the thing that really really set me back. I said to myself what is going on here and I want to know how you felt about that in that moment, when you, when you saw all of this happening yeah first of all, I did clarify almost immediately what I meant. I would say that there was an inner. If I could go back and say I should in retrospect not have replied to that particular person, and I should have written.

In greater length as to what I met. I did subsequently clarified in replies, but those clarifications were ignored by the media and essentially I handed loaded gun to those who hate me and arguably, to those words medic formats and quite right that that has not. That was not my intention, so I did you know posts or made primary timely to be absolutely clear that I am not anti semitic and that I, in fact, if anything and file asthmatic and the trip to arouse plant before any of that happened, it's nearly handle there. Do you see this thing? You know what it is

I do because I actually followed your entire trip to Israel right when, to tell everybody this is the says, says: bring them home the hostage it was given to me by the parents of one of the hostages, and I said I would wear it has as long as there was a hostage to remaining. what was that trip like? And obviously you know that there is a public perception that that was part of a apology tour. If you will that would this had been said online, there was all the criticism. was advertisers weaving? We talk, whereby slap you dont advertise

you don't want them to africa now. Would you mean everything for to blackmail me with advertising black, knowing with money yourself but go yourself? Is that clear evidence? hey Bob, if you're in the audience well. Well, let me ask you then that's how I feel don't advertise. How do you think that about the economics of our backs if part of the underlying model least today, and maybe it needs to shift. Maybe the answer is it needs to shift away for advertising. If, if you believe that this is the one part of your business, you will be beholden to those who have this view you. Why. I understand it, but there's a reality to right. Yes,

No, no leno, Jaco, anos right here and she's got a sell advertise. Absolutely so! No it don't tell me so it's actually what what this advertising boycott is is going to do it it's going to kill a company, and you think that but and the whole world will know that those advertisers cope company, and we are well documented in great detail. But there are those advertisers, I imagine are going to say they're going to say we didn't, kill the company yeah they're, going to say also told to earth But they're going to say that, did you say you on that? You killed the company because you said these things and they were inappropriate things and they didn't feel comfortable on the platform. I would add that as well. You understand, let's see how earth responds to that silly. Ok! This then this goes back to omit we're both make our cases and we will see what the outcome is

What are the economics of that? For you I mean you, you have enormous resources, so you can actually keep this company going for a very long time. Would you keep it going for a long time if there was no advertising or if the company fails because of africa advertiser boycott, it will fail because of an advertiser boycott, and that will be what bankrupt the company and that's what everybody on earth will know. but what would you think then of the ip address them? Then I ve gone and began because amount as boycott, but We recognise that some of those people are going to say the data and feel comfortable on the platform and I want to, I just wonder and ask you to think about that for a delicate judge, but that, but the judge is going to be just the public and you think that the public is going to say that the disney is making a mistake and they're gonna boy

It is their already are well, there are some that are for lots of different reasons, but you think that this is going to that you have, though, this ghost. Actually Just think of an hour and leverage, let the chips full where they may, that the chips or with any kinds want why that is. Project, I ask it because you ve been what area approach where you ve been very particular about the media approach to tesla but the engineering involved and that the approach to space x, the approach to with the stuff you're doing with AI has been very specific right, there's not a let let the chips fall where they may approach to those physicists. I don't think that we focus on making the best products and tests has gotten to where it's gone with no advertise. I understand that there are currently cells to twice much in terms of electric vehicles as threats of electric car represent

The united states combined, tells us has done more to help the environment than all other companies combined refer to say that, therefore, as a leader of the company, I've done more for the environment than any single human on earth. How do you feel about that Don't know about that yeah! No! I'm I'm asking you personally how you feel about that because it goes. We are talking about power and influence and I'd say I'm saying what I care about is the the reality of goodness, not the perception of it, and what I see all over the place is people who care about looking good while doing evil for them. Ok,. We ask that this, because I think part of this by the way there's some people said, look owning acts to begin with, as just created problems. You created so many amazing things are changing our world. and I know you want to make x this fabulous town square free speech platform, but that unto itself that that has come

It's a distraction of all these things that this is the conversation we're having we're, not focused, or he not talking least yet, and we will on tesla. You have your cyber truck deliveries tomorrow and everything else you're doing, but there will be the biggest product launch of anything. By far- earth this year is certainly part of you don't get too says you know what She lay down done this or maybe I should sell it, will give it away or do something else. What with that with the ex piece of it, given the propensity for some of the things that you do and say on that platform to create these. These issues. I will oppose so I've done on the platform. I think there might be some thirty thousand or some like the once in a while, I will say something foolish and have airport that comment that they use.

The truth, among perhaps one of the most foolish, if not the most foolish thing, I've ever down the platform, and I did do my best to clarify afterwards that I certainly not mean anything semitic in that the nature of the criticism was simply that the jewish people have been prosecuted for thousands of years. There is a natural affinity, therefore, for persecuted groups. This has led to the funding of organisations that is essentially promote any persecuted group or any group with the perception of persecution. This includes radical islamic groups. Everyone there has seen the massive demonstrations for Hamas in every major city in the west. That should be jarring well A number of those organizations receive funding from prominently

well, jewish community. They expect that to happen, but if you're generically, without condition, if you found persecuted groups in general, some of those persecuted groups unfortunately want your annihilation and one So what I meant by that when I subsequently clarify this, is that its unwise to find organizations that support group. that one you're annihilation! Is this coming across. yeah and what it was like. My question to you that I think is logically, this is, it makes a lot of sense. Is there any part of you tell me what happened we want solve this happens. That say, you found a group that group supports. He wants you to die, perhaps not random, but you, but you do

why do you? You do appreciate that when you wait into these very delicate waters at this very delicate time says that it can create a real. I mean as created headlines for the past two weeks and an economic impact. What book did so curious? What have we got your brain when you see all laughing at you sitting there going? Oh, my god I said, didn't, I wish I didn't do that, are you say Damn I hate these people after me, but all of that yeah yeah there's all of that mean Look, I'm sorry for that tweet or post. It was foolish of me of the thirty thousand. It might be literally the worst and dumbest posts that I've ever done, and I try to do my best to clarify six racist sunday. But

at least I think over time. It will be obvious that in fact, far from being and he's manic, I'm in fact, fellow semitic and like all the evidence in my track record, would support that there are people who say crazy things on on acts, as you know, what you think they're crazy, they will not be. The aspiration for x, is to be the global talent square. Now, if you will down to let's say times square. Do you occasionally hear people saying crazy things but they're not that they don't have the megaphone bright and that's that's the conundrum. Maybe I can only say to the fifth: hundred people, that is, that are sitting standing their times square, but that that the joke I used to make a bottle. but it was. It was like giving everyone inside border megaphone, so I'm I'm I'm aware that things can catch promoted that are negative beyond the circle of of somebody somewhere, screaming crazy things in times square, which happens all the time

It's pretty rare for something, and frankly that is hateful to be promoted. It's not it's not it's not that it never happens, but it's fairly rare. I mean I would encourage people to look at, for those who use the system. When you look at the feed that you receive. How often is it? Is it hateful and over time as it but more or less hateful, and I would say that if you look at the f type one today, as a year ago, I think it is actually much better. I mean what what are you surprised, but youngsters use that I used to live one, we're just like eyes and with no to being an attics you and I before you and I will I will say that the problem is because I'm a journalist I go looking for stuff, who was just saying

and as I and I I also think the algorithm for me personally, because I'm looking for stuff also is feeding the others things it does this. This is actually a challenge in that it, like some people say like wise and showing me posts from this person that I hate and then we're like? Well, did you interact a lot with this person that you hate? Well, yes, therefore thinks that you want to interact more with this person that you hey, that's like, oh, of all the message we can kind of want. You have an argument: tweet yeah, do you ever have a post, let's say posts? when you poet wasn't I'm open, everyone can account with a better word. That would be great when you out but the least bad. What actually was passed when you post, though you are you trying to while up either a base? or an audience do you do you recognize the power you have in that

and and also by the way, not just rile up but also riled down, which is to say, as I said, there are people who are demonstrably anti semitic on on the site. Who I get the jew boy things in all sorts of things to come to my way, our while I forgot tourists that I would get a ticket, but but no, but the question is my name is supergirl. You ever think to yourself. You know what I'm going to go online and I'm going to say these people. I condemn these people that are on my side saying these things. I have said I've condemned and assembled, but do you ever go? I said I can kinda. I literally I literally posted. I condemn anti semitism in all. It's forms like belt as a literal, I believe, literal post that I made and I'm like, listen if. At this, the source, if you you know, and we could get it I'd, let me ask you different for each year, you? U composed of our posted.

we ask you this you and you're on your on a podcast about a month ago, and you said something that struck me and it struck me as accurate came out of your mouth. So hopefully it is, but it is hopefully go deep on the cisco kid aromas does not. Minister, you said my monetary said my mind is a storm. I dont think most people would want to be me They may think they want to be me, but they don't know they don't understand. What did you mean by that always get what your mind being a storm. Not I think it I mean. I have known you for quite some time, It is a bit of a storm. Yes,. yeah. I mean it as much as you are aware, the matter make sense? my mind is often feels like, like a like very wild storm

I have thousands of ideas and I have more ideas than I could possibly execute, and so I have none where's, your ideas. Innovation is not about public executions problem. A million ideas about an entire design for electric supersonic vertical take off jack, but I am an act just fine. I just can't do that as well. I've had it for ten years and there's a million things to I'm a happy storm. No, it's not a happy story. Tell us about that, because I think that that actually is when people try to really understand I think that there is a lot of this comes from some other place, and I want I want to talk about that when you think that is.

Really, like a psychiatrist catch your son. You know I I think to some degree. I was born this way, but atlanta was amplified by a difficult childhood frankly, and so, but I can remember, even then happy moments when I was a kid that there's just it just feels like the sister.

A range of forces in my mind constantly and the others into productively, manifests itself in technology and building things for the most part. So I and I think, on balance, the output has been very productive and I think the resultset, as we discussed earlier, with spacex tesla paypal, which is sold im going today and the first year in a company that I started in fact, the first year in a company I started to was funded by new york times. in a hearse knight, ridder and remember, we wrote some software for in your new york website.

And we helped bring online several hundred newspapers that previously were only in print and now this is in the nineties, which at this point is like I'm like a grandpa black bear. Basically, the night is an internet feels like a pre cambrian era when there were only sponges so. They re so entirely. I think a lot of productive things renown and you can look at tat- tells us as being too many companies one like us. We're charging network is, if it were it. If, if the city has a supercharged network, where it's own company, it would be a fortune five hundred company by itself. It's just just the supercharging system and we also make the cells we we'd we'd pulled that, I would try solar power train from scratch. We are the most innovative structural design, the largest castle.

Ever used with the best manufacturing technology, a test that better manufacturing technology than companies have been doing it for a hundred years, so so the knees these demons of the mind. You know for the most part, harnessed to protect, and islamist kosovars. It mean that once in a while, they go wrong. But- and this is a question I think a lot of people, we are always trying to figure out about not just you but sometimes themselves, meaning what is driving this you're doing all of these things. Do you think it's it? Do you think that you would be a success? Whatever success is, if it wasn't being driven by some, I think there's something you're trying to prove. Your self, where does somebody I dont, know we're trying to prove that a better rules.

Mother I dont know. No, if I were to say the sperm ass, my philosophy. It is the philosophy of curiosity. May I did have an external crisis when I always around twelve, If not, what's the meaning of life, isn't it all pointless? Why not just commit suicide? Why exist and I read the religious texts, I read the philosophy books and that frustration firstly, books, maybe quite depressed frankly, one you're not really children, our natures, generator. With that. I read those outcomes. I just got to the galaxy, which is a book on philosophy in the form of humor, and the point that to Adam

was making there was that I we don't actually know what questions to ask this way so that you know the answers. Forty two like basically earth a giant computer and- and it came up with the answer- forty two, but then to actually figure out what the question is. That's the actual hard part- and I think this is generally true. in physics, at the point of which you can probably friend the question. The answer is, is actually the easy part, so so my motivation then, was that well My life is finite, really a flash in the pan and on tat the timescale. But if we can expand the scope and scale consciousness, then we are better able to figure out what questions to ask about the answer. That is the universe.

And whereby we can find out the meaning of life or even what questions to what? What the right question to ask is. Do you know where do we come from? Where are we going Where are the aliens other aliens at these? These questions in them is a new physics to discover it looks at the injuries, are real real questions, rob matter, mattering, dark energy, and so that the purpose of space acts is to extend life beyond. I on a sustained basis, so that we can at least pass one of the firm, a grateful which is that of being a single planet, civilization, progressing. Civilization. Then we they waiting around four

extinction event, whether that is man made or natural if you're singleton civilisation, eventually you that it is something that happens, I planets and you will die if you are multiple, Civilization will have much longer also model, and civilization is the best natural stepping stone to being elsie stellar civilization, being out there. the stars so and others I think has to that this is not simply a defensive motivation but it is also one with it. You know that gives meaning man search for many suppliers.

That is my first, this philosophy point, even though it may seem. Rather s attack the mirrors and eight was a few people. We must get past us, fermi, footsore, venus, a disgraceful sure of being a single parents of liberation, and if we do that will more likely to understand. the nature of the universe and what questions asked. If you believer in the philosophy of curiosity, then then I think you should support this ambition, and but it's more than that, does being a multi plant. Species is more than than simply your life and life insurance for life collectively, that's a defensive reason, but but, but I think also that, but that life has to be more than simply solving one side problem after another

you know that, now that the reasons for you wake up in the morning, I knew it'll be alive. They have to be reasons but you're getting So why are you excited about the future? What gives you hope and an end if you, if you want your ask your kids and I think the idea of us being space bearing civilization and me out there stars is incredibly inspiring. citing and something to look forward to and then such things in the world and ask a different question about competence, we're having conversations earlier, but people and where you were people get their competence from some people have been. Security of the people have great confidence and I was thinking.

You, because you have a very interesting history where people have told you over and over again that you're wrong was another right well Sometimes they are, but I would say that when it comes to tesla, when it came to spacex people told you that you It's crazy, you're out of your mind, this was never going to happen this year, I'm going to work and so ass? Ask you. This, though, is now when people say you're wrong. This isn't right. Do you look at that and say you know what that's like a red for me, because you know I've been told so often that I'm wrong there I know that- and I know I'm right. She's I've had that experience war, people in your life when they say you know what you are. This is not. This is not right, and you know what I'm saying. I mean, I think, we're just trying to that to do at this point

it's because I've been right so many times where others have said, I'm wrong that now I possibly believe I'm right when I packed I'm wrong is very well what you think No I'm right so I look at a thing. Physics is and unforgiving. Physics is unforgiving, so I mean you know these very small things outcome with that to physics is the law and everything else is a recommendation. in the sense that you can, Any law made by humans, but try breaking a law made by physics, is much more difficult. So if you are wrong

in being wrong, the rockets will blow up and the cars will fail. So this is what we're not trying to figure out what what flavor of ice cream is the best flavor of ice cream that like, if there's a thousand things that can happen on a rocket flight. and only one of them gets rocked orbit and so being wrong results in failure when dealing with physical objects. That's usually part. So now you ve built this. These great companies that physically the physics of them are enormously successful, so successful. Arguably that you have leverage over everybody else. Why does nobody else can do starling? Nobody else can get. it nobody else, can get the the rockets in space. Yet amazon and Jeff bezos are trying, but they haven't yet. I hope he does. You hope he does, and I think,

but I actually agree with with with logic motivations I mean, I think he's know, so I'm looking for their words way, if that, if those about like a press that would delete blue origin, I wouldn't press it So I think it good that eu spending money on on making rockets to get us just I've seen spend more time on it, but of them lately a bit, but I would should make a point here. So nothing, nothing! Any of my companies have done has been to stifle competition. In fact, we have done the opposite, so at tesla we have open sourced our patents. Anyone can use our patents for free. How many companies do you know who have done that? You name one. I can't,

at spacex. We dont use pads so said once in a while, we will follow patent, just as some patent fathers course cause trouble, but we're not stopping any that we're done. We ve done nothing anti competitive. We ve done nothing to stop, I'm not suggesting you are at all. I I just wanna clarify for the audience, because some companies have done anti competitive things. I think the the strange thing or the unusual thing about spacex and tells us that we've done things that have helped our competition So at tells us we have made our supercharged system open access with women. We we made our charges acknowledging available for free together. Manufacturers. The reason I know old garden. We could have put a wall up. The companies had we invited them in the region mentioned this. That is because we have had the success in the physical physics world. You now have these very difficult.

decisions that have huge impacts on the world that are not physically. Isn't at all there, is the mind their decisions that you and others have to make there's a question whether you should be making these decisions at all. When I think about in the context of star Obviously there was a report about how its being used in ukraine and in the rough war there's questions about What you know, taiwan, whether taiwan should use it or will use it. I believe they're not right now, because it worried that someone maybe the chinese will tell you that you have to they it's over you and you're going to have to turn that off right I mean these are these are very difficult decisions and I'm so curious how you think about that, and not just the decisions. The fact that you have that power. I just think, is important for the ownership understand that the reason I have these cars because some anticompetitive actions it simply because we ve executed very well That's missing, and I can do there are so many people by the way who worked you supporters, of what you there are satellites lights out there, but there but they're, not

It is yours and seen, and we can say that maybe make the same argument of cars and everything else, but as a result there Gives you enormous leverage, with the exception of that, by the way these advertisers warrant on x in every other aid. Since everybody needs you, I mean nobody's views are part of its better than you something else. Fight, if it's the right there. I accept that it maybe one day really also better products, and it, like you know, how's. It about things makes that are part of other companies. I want to go back to this to the starlink piece of it, though, because it that has sort of a geo geopolitical ramifications in terms of your power and how you think about that specific power and then the power that the us government might have either over you or not over you. The power of the chinese government might have over. You are not over you and how those things get used

wondering what he's jesse, I'm I'm I'm asking the question around this. This very idea of how these satellites are going to be used, whether you think that you should have the role of them, whether the government should have control of them or how does the government, while that there's a lot of people who don't trust the government not exactly, but then this goes back to the trust of you right I mean they said that we're not the only company or as communication satellites that our satellites are just much better than earth. So it's not like. We have a monopoly genius. You have do you feel, like anybody has an act. It's not like you feel anything as leverage over you. I mean, I think, that the day, if we make bad If you don't want to use than their users will vote with their resources and something else nativity conversation

I didn't say that mere my companies, overseen by regulators and while you're a wonderful since the since spacex darling, tesla are overseen by have cumulatively over a hundred regulators. In After more than a few hundred regulators, because you got fifty five countries, if you somewhat all the times that I had an argument with regulators of hundreds of regulators over decades. can sound really terrible, except for they forgot to mention that, There were ten million regulations we complied with, and only five that I disagree with what it was all for the five and it sounds like why the scattered, we'll never like it or not, the ten million we complied with. Do you, then, that limit

one related to on this- is the leverage of countries and things over you and regulators and xs this for free speech platform, you do business in china, lots of business channel. That's an important part of your your business. I imagine with lots of basic. How do you think about the leverage that the chinese have over you and do they have leverage over you and how do you feel what about some people would say. Is it hypocritical for you to be doing business in china or frankly, in other countries where, as it relates to x and other things that don't follow this free speech path that you have espoused the best that the platform can do is adhere to the laws of any country, do you think, there's something more. We can do that. I didn't very hard, but I just wonder, given the sort of strong philosophical approach, the youth you you, you ve been vocal about Whether you said yourself, you know, maybe

be doing business in that country? Well, that's all starling and spacex, through our nervousness in china whatsoever. Does it has one of afore factories for vehicle factories in china and china is? I run up a quarter of our market or something like that. So it's a quarter of the market of one company. The same is true by the way of all the other car companies, I also have a on that order. A quarter of their sales in china. So if you, if that's a problem for tesla, it's a problem for every card company, I think one has to be careful about not conflating the

it's companies, because I can only do things that are within the bounds of the law. I cannot do beyond that, and my aspiration is to do as much good as possible and to be as productive as possible within the bounds of what is legal. More than that, I cannot do will be right back I may leave and I'm josh lie and where the hosts of built for change apart gas from accenture built for change were talking to business leaders from every corner of the world that are harnessing changed to reinvent the future of their business were discussing ideas like the importance of ethical I'd bore how productivity sores, when companies truly listen to other employees value. These are insight. That leaders need to know today had so subscribed to build for change wherever you get your by gas,

I mean jura sorkin, the founder and editor of deal book, a daily business and policy report from the new york times for years I've been bringing together some of the most prominent people in business policy and culture for the dual book summit allow I have in new york city, and, let's just say, I don't like to hold back like when I spoke with empty access, founder sand bank which freed it sounds like a bunch of kids on had all have you sleep over look I screwed up. My aim is to get inside the heads the individuals at the centre of today's major stories to give insights into their motivations, like with treasure secretary, JANET Yellin. I believe it possible for us to have a soft landing, or israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. I would like to have a resolution of the consumer and israeli conflict, but so did my predecessors now be bringing this year's best interviews to you in a limited run, interview serious, called the doable summit. Listen to that

look summit wherever you get your part. I want to pivot and talk about ai. For a moment, we had Jensen wrong here. Who's. A big fan of yours is you know that Jensen's awesome talk about talking about bringing you the first box by the way With the earlier, interestingly enough, back in two thousand exceeded sixteen, I think there's a video jensen. and re unpacking the first item? at open air so and so curious. What you think of what's just happened over the ass two weeks, while you are dealing with this other headline, Series of headlines while other series of bananas so far had open ai. What did you think? Well, you found it cofounded the one hundred year and.

What was that the whole arc of open, I frankly, is a little troubling because the real for starting up may I was to create a kind of a counterweight to Google given the mind which, at the time had. Two thirds of all ai talent and basically infinite money incomplete and there was no there's, no counterweight or euro polar world and Larry page, and I used to be right. friends. I said his house and our talk to Larry. Until late hours, the night about a high safety, and it became apparent to me, that's very what did not care about air safety. I think. Perhaps the thing that gave it away was when he called me a species for being problematic as in local races, but for treaties

so I'm like wait, a second what's out of the ordinary and in and I'm like, okay, listen, those guys call me auspicious. He doesn't care about ai safety. we ve gotta have some counterpoint here, because the seems like we could be listening. So now I was actually started and it was meant to be open source. I named it overnight after open source. It is in fact, source tubercle is rig. It should be a renamed super close horse for maximum profit. Ai, though, because this is what it actually is, I mean fate loves irony. A dream and as a friend of mine has it says, like the way to predict

This is the most ironic outcome estimate that is outcomes. Razor, like the simplest of explanation is most likely, and my friend John, is- is that the most ironic outcome is most likely and that's what happened with open. I it's gone from an open source founded. If I wanted three to suddenly it's like an icy billion dollar for profit collaboration with close horse. So I don't know how you go from here to there that's, it seems like. I know how you get enough. Legal like this? So as you saw SAM women, get ousted by somebody, Ilya emilia, was somebody who is a friend of yours. If you brought him there, your relationship with I page effectively broke down over you recruiting in a way that is correct. That was the fight that was the Larry refused to be friends with me after I recruited alia and so here's alia apparently saying something is very wrong.

I think we should be concerned about this because I think alia actually has a strong moral compass and he thinks about it. You know he he really sweats it over questions of what is right and, if alia, felt strongly enough to want to you know fire sam. Well, I think the world should know what was that reason? Have you talked him? I reached out, but he he doesn't want to talk to anyone have you talked to other people behind the scenes. Is this all happening? I talked to a lot of people as nobody, I've not found anyone. Who knows why have you, I think we are all still trying to find out. I mean one of two things, It was a serious thing

you know what it is or is not a serious thing and and then the butcher reside waiting to see a moment. I have mixed feelings about sam. I do that the real power can corrupt and these are the real power. So you know I don't know. I think I want to know why Elio felt so strongly as far sam the sounds like a serious thing. I dont think it was trivial And I am quite concerned that this that the sum in a dangerous element of ay, I that if they ve discovered yes, you think they discovered something terribly. My guess Where are you with your

nay I efforts relative to wear, you think open I is way take over, was without the other. I'm going on the air in front of me somewhat of a quandary here, because I've thought a can be something that would change the world in a significant way. Since I was in college, I mean like thirty years ago and the reason I didn't go build a life right from the get go was because I was uncertain about which, which edge of the double edge sword, which would be sharper the good edge of the vantage. So I held off on doing anything I could have created, I think, leading a company.

the kind of ok. I actually careers that because I was just uncertain if you make this magic genie, what will happen in a worse, I think will exist. advantages. Technology is much I have a single edge sword that is single, edged good, making like multi planetary. I think single, edged good and installing mostly single edged good. I mean giving people better connectivity to people that don't don't have connectivity or too expensive, I think, is fair. Very much a good thing, solid, was instrumental by the way and the halting the russian advance the ukrainian said, so so I think those was I I you ve got the magic J problem,

you may think you want a magic jenny but once you that gene is out of the bottle started, say what happened How are we away from achieving bodily a? We think? It's already out and he suddenly programme set up. The e g, I, the idea of artificial general intelligence, Given what you now working on yourself- and you know, how is your heart is to train to creating France is to create the weights, help I'm not going to In the weeds just how this works, but those are the basics and the software end of this. They fire these waits they're, just bessie numbers and a column

separated value file and that's how digital god a csv file and are funny and the desert kind of literally what it is so, but I think it's coming pretty fast. You know that I mean you ve, given you ve famously have admitted to overstating how quickly things will happen, but how quickly you think this will happen. He say smarter than the smallest human at anything it may not be thence quite smarter than all humans or machine. Invented humans, as we feel about computers and stuff and desirable. Lucy smaller than any, I just got a novel, I say take her away, or discover new physics or invent new technology.

I would say that we are less than three years. My point, let me ask you a question about. sai and what you're doing and because there's an interesting thing, that's different. I think about what you have relatives of some of the others, which you have data. You have information. You have all of the stuff that everybody in here has put on the platform. We're through an iota of every realise that, initially, what is the value of that. Yeah, I'm data is very important. You could say, the is parliament I will go, but then maybe

You have. Actually, maybe you have more. Maybe you have the gold in x in a different way, in a way again that I I dunno. If the public appreciates what that means, yes, access to where it might be the single best source of data- I mean it is there more in people, links that go to choke on warnings to axe than anything else on earth, so people think facebook or interbank there's a beggar but actually there are more links to ex than anything you can does public information? Can google it ugliness a so and it is, it is where you would find what is happening right now on earth at any given point in time. The hollow drama- played out effect on the platform, so it is, one of them is not there.

Google suddenly has a massive amount of data, so microsoft and so like but it is one of the best source of data. Interesting ip issue, which I think is actually something say as somebody who is in the creator, business journalistic business and what not work care by copyright so. one of the things about training on data has been this. You're not going to train work with that. These things are not being trained on people's copyrighted information. Historically, that's been the concept of seniors law say that again, because of this I have this as all trained covered it? Obviously, she think it's a lie when, when open, I says that this is not none of these guys either training on the upgraded debt that that's a lie. The greatest straightaway. Ok, that did not exist when train on programme.

There are some, which is all the people who have been upload, In sake of whatever event, all of the people have been uploading articles the best quotes from different articles, videos to x, all of that can be trained on and it's interesting because people put all of that there and those quotes have historically been sort of fair use right there. People are putting those quotes up there and individually on a fair use basis, it's ok that makes sense, but now there are people who do threads and by the way there maybe multiple people have done. You know at article could a thousand words technically, all thousand words could have made it onto ex somehow and effective. We now you have this remarkable repository, and I wonder what you how you think about that again and how you think the creative community, and those who were there.

All ip owner, should think about that, except to say that the boy time. These lawsuits are decided, we'll have digital god, so russia as digital god at that point, and these lawsuits won't be decided before a timeframe that is relevant. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think we live. And our efforts, actually we'll try, say or not, but it may live an interesting time when is apparently not a good thing, but I would prefer to personally I would prefer to have an interesting times and we live in the most interesting of times. I think I was like really getting demotivated and losing sleep over the threat of a danger, and I finally became fatalistic about it and said well

Even if I knew I was annihilation was certain what I choose to be alive at that time or not, and I said I probably would choose to be alive at that time, because it's the most interesting thing and even if there's none If so, then you know then basically a sort of fatalistic resignation helped me sleep at night, because I was having trouble sleeping at night because of ai danger and now what to do about it, I mean I've been the biggest before the one billion the round the hardest by far the longest or this one of longest I, for I danger and these regulatory things that are happening. The single biggest reason happening is because of me: We thought we were ever going to get their arms around. We, we talked to the vice president. This afternoon she said she wants to regulated that people can try to

it social media for years and have done nothing effectively. Well, this does regulation around anything which is it like a physical danger to a danger to the public. So, like cars are heavily regulated communications, I heavily regulated rockets and aircraft are heavily regulated the general philosophy about relation is that when something is a danger to the public, that then, is the sum governor oversight so in my view. I is more dangerous than nuclear bombs, which we regulate nuclear bombs. You can just. make nuclear bomb in your backyard. I think we should have some kind of regulation with ay now this tends to court the acceleration, is to get up in arms because they think as a sort of heaven basically, but you probably don't like regulation,

you ve pushed back on regulators for the most part in the world of tesla, so many so many instances where we re articles pushing back on the regulators and so curious. Why, in this instance, now you own one of these businesses As I said a moment ago, you one should not take what is bearded and the media as being the whole picture. There are literally hundreds. This is not an exaggeration, so they're, probably a hundred million regulations that that might companies comply with and they're, probably five that we don't. and if there is, if we disagree with some regulations is because we think the regulation that is meant to do good doesn't actually to good, but that does not thinking of going rate. As but decisive if there are laws and rules,

whether the ideas that you are making the decision that the law on the rule shouldn't be the law on the role and then right. Isn't that saying are fundamentally mistaken and you should be obvious that you're mistaken my companies. what am I have is hegel heavily regulated. We would not be allowed for causing the road if we did not comply with this vast body of regulation or you could. You could fill up the stage with literally six foot high with the the regulations that you have to comply with to make a car that would make you you could have a room full of phone books. That's how many that's how big the regulations are and if you don't comply with all of those you can't sell the car and if we don't comply with all the regulate.

If the rockets offer starling they shut us down, so in fact I am incredibly compliant with regulations now, once in a while there'll be something that I disagree with. The reason I would disagree with is because I think the regulation in that particular case in that rare case does not serve the public good and therefore I think it is my obligation to object to a regulation that is meant to serve the public good. If it doesn't that's the only time I object not because I seek to, at the one fact, I'm incredibly raw fine, let me do a separate question. Social media related question. We've been talking about tiktok today, ahead of the election to one of six areas. What do you think of tiktok? Do you think it's a national security threat? I don't usually talk different you don't I don't personally use it, but for

the people that vote for for teenagers and people in their twenties. They seem almost religiously addicted to tiktok, and some people will watch tiktok for like two hours a day and I stopped using tiktok when I felt the ai probing my mind and I don't it made me uncomfortable, and so I stopped using it and In terms of anti semitic content, I mean tiktok is rife with that rife with that as the most viral anti semitic content contention. By far What do you think the chinese government is using it to manipulate. Mines of americans now. Is that something that you think we should worry? many other states that are trying to ban it, I don't think this is a sum tries govern plight, but it did it. It is.

The particular go whether this entirely I powered. So it is really just try to find the most vital thing possible that what is it? What is going to keep you glued to the screen? That's it now, the on on sheer numbers, there are on order of two billion muslims in the world and I think much smaller number of jewish people. What's waiting Something is many orders nature if you're. So if you just look at at content production Just went unsure numbers basis, gonna be overwhelmingly athletic at on a number of international political question, and I in trying to square this one of my head for a long time, in the last two or three years you have moved decidedly to the right.

can I well we can discuss this. I think that you have been espousing and promoting a number of of of republican candidates and and others you ve, been very frustrated with the binding administration over unions and feeling like they did not respect what you created with without any doing nothing to promote them by the ministry of foreign, they held an electric vehicles summit at the white house and specifically refuse to let tells the attend this in the first six months of the administration and we inquiry like we literally make, electric cars than ever now combined? Why are we not allowed? Why are you only letting you wait for gm chrysler and euro w and your specifically the slowing us from the EU summit at the white house with we're done nothing to vote them. Then, By then went on to add insult to injury and publicly said that gm was leading

Electrical revolution: this was in the same order. That tells me three hundred thousand electric cars and gm made twenty six. That's very you selected, but tell me this thing it doesnt seem fair cameron, and I've asked repeatedly you probably seen another where a great relationship will Obama This is not so bad in theirs with all my soul, sudden out for sick, I soon life for six hours to shake of his head. Ok, so they have taken what moves us on a personal level. I can see it in your face this. This hurt you personally and it hurt the company too, and it was an insult to your tits. Has a has one hundred and forty thousand Employees, ok up, other half of them are in united states, tells us credible nathan, the jobs and anyone else combined, so he destiny youtube devoted at me.

The last close to twenty years, your life, if not more, to the climate climate change trying to get tesla off the ground in part to improve you talked about. The real right wing motive is repeatedly got far right everything I understand that and neither is it s a good guys right, reversed psychology next level we'll know about? years and the question which How do you square the support that you have given, Believe you were at a fundraiser or of the the swami for example, who says that climate climate You is a hoax rather severe them on that We think that there would be such a singular issue for you. I would think that the climate. with such a singular issue for you that actually, it would disqualify almost anybody who

who didn't take that issue seriously, though, haven't endorsed anyone for ritual president present I mean I wanted to hear what break out to say. Cause, I think some of his things are the sort of things he says I think are pretty solid, and you know he is concerned about government overreach about government control of information that the degree to which old twitter was basically a sock. Puppet of the government was ridiculous, and so you know it seems to me that there's that there's a very severe violation of the first amendment and in terms of how much government control control, much control the government had over twitter and ignoring it is so you know, there's a reason for the first man, and the reason for the first moment for the freedom of speech is because of the fuel that there are various country came from places where there was not freedom of speech.

and then they were like? You know what we we we've got to make sure that that's constitutional, because where they came from, if they said something that report and president, whether it be you know something bad would happen to them. So and freedom of speech. You have to say when is it relevant? It's only relevant when when someone you dont, like can say something you don't like, or It has no meaning, and at that. as long as you sort of guilt throw in the towel and can see to censorship, it is only a matter of time before someone sensors you, and that is why we have the first amendment- will be right back.

I'm just fly, then I believe you we hosted podcast from eccentric called bill for change. Every part of every business is being reinvented right now. That means companies are facing brand new pressures to use fast, evolving technologies, unaddressed, shifting consumer expectations, but with big changes come even bigger opportunities. We ve talked with leaders from every corner of the business world to learn how their harnessing change to totally reinvent their companies and how you can do it to subscribe to build for change now. So you don't miss an episode Could you see yourself voting for president button if it's, if they Biden trump election, for example? I think I would not vote for Biden. You'd vote for trump is a vote for trump, but I mean.

This is definitely a real choice. Here we would you would you voted for Nicky, Hayley Nicky, mainly by the way, once social media. names to be exposed. As you now know, I think that's outrageous yeah, no, I'm not going to vote for them present censorship. Canada likes it. I mean, I think these after you have to. You're? Consider that there is a lot of wisdom in these amendments, I'm in the constitution and and a lot of these a lot things that we take for granted here in the united states that don't even exist in canada. There's not enough constitutional rights to freedom of speech in Canada.

so in our side and then there's no randal rights and count. If you like things like you know, you have the right to remain silent. You don't actually in canada, so have committed serious enough, but it is it's like you just gotta eat. The freedom of speech is incredibly important, even when people say, and then I guess it's it's actually especially important. In fact, it is only relevant when people you dont, like can savings, life and you think right now it is their meaningless. You think, right now there are probably candidates with the Democrats. are more inclined. this when you guilty, I assume to took two woken anti awoke in the mind, The issue that you ve talked about, which party do you think is, is is more pro free.

of speech. Given all the things you ve here, as we also see dissenters, you know venting people from reading certain things, maybe you, but maybe you think, that's that's that's correct we actually are in an odd situation here where, on balance, the Democrats appear to be more prospects. Censorship third politics that use the opposite it used to be, position was freedom of speech. In our know, one points dsl? You even have to defend the rights of someone to claim that there are not two years up like that, so like What they really were like the left was freedom of speech is, is, is fundamental and- and I mean my the perception, perhaps it isn't accurate- is that the?

It pro censorship is more on the left than than the right, and we certainly get more complaints from left and right for that way and so on. But my aspiration for the ex platform is that it is the best source of truth have at least an accurate source of truth, and well, you know, I don't know you won't believe it or not, but I think honesty is the best policy and I think that the truth, what went over time and that we ve got this this great system and is getting better community notes, which is fantastic, I think at correcting falsehoods or or adding cards. In fact, what we make a point of of not more moving anything that only adding contacts not context include that this is completely laws and harris. Why and and and no one is immune to this- I'm not immune to africa,

there's not immune to it. In fact, we have had very notes which has caused us some less in advertising speaking to us of advertising revenue, we what, when it with a community note if it out if, if this false advertising the community note will say this is false, and here is why I mean like there's one specific example: let us pop public knowledge that I mentioned, which is Uber had this ad, which said one like a boss, and it was community noted if by bus you mean twelve dollars and forty seven cents an hour this. This did cause at least a temporary suspension of advertising, Moreover, I gotta asked question that might make everybody in the room uncomfortable or not uncomfortable. It goes to the free speech issue times. I am fully in the new york times newspaper. It appeared over the summer to be throttled. What would the new york times at? What will we do require that

that everyone has to buy a subscription or we don't make exceptions for anyone, and- and I think, if I want the new york times, I have to pay for a subscription and they don't give me a free subscription. No, I'm not going to give them a free subscription, but where are you? But where are you throttling the new york times relative to other news organizations relative to everybody else? Was it was it? Was it specific to the to the times better than a biased version of other alec costs like one thousand dollars a month? So if they just do that, then then they've, and I can back but but what you are saying, that it was throttled beyond dancing dick everywhere? conversational you had with somebody said look on im happy with the times they should either be buying. If war, I don't like the content or would have whatever any organization that refuse to buy a subscription is is, is not going to be recommended. But then what does that say that

we speech and one who was in his eyes, like a pamphlet, fine, research, Zurich and always is real costs. A little bit like what That's it, but that's an interesting is a second. my they say you know, freedom isn't free, it costs a bucko, five or whatever so, but pretty cheap. Ok, it's a low cost us freedom. I get it more question for you, you're heading back to texas. After this freedom to launch this type of truck is gonna, be big launch But I wanted to ask you right now, more broadly just about the the carbon and what you see actually happening, and specifically the government put in face lots of policies, as you know, to try to encourage more either and one of the things that happened. Uniquely now a lot of car companies saying actually,

This is too ambitious for us. These plans are too ambitious. Four thousand dealers- I, if you saw just yesterday, sent the letter white house saying this has gone too far, you're going too far you're at this end, even there wasn't it was. This is going too fast too far, and that there's not enough demand underneath all this is his idea that maybe there's not enough demand for ie vs that the american public has not bought into the I mean they bought into with with with your company, but they haven't bought into a broadly enough. But I think if you make a compelling electric car people will buy it. No question about it. I mean electric car sales in china are gigantic and that's by far the biggest category, and I think that would be the era. I mean it's worth noting face it. So the pony the best reputation of that is that the tesla model. Why would be the best selling car of any kind on earth this year of any kind gasoline

otherwise is there another car company that thinks doing a good job with it is I mean I think the chinese car companies are extremely competitive by far our toughest competition is in china, so I mean there's there's a lot of people who are other things that the top ten car companies are going to be tesla, followed by nine chinese car companies. I think they might not be wrong, so china sea were good and manufacturing, and the work ethic is incredible. So you know like if we considered different leagues of competitiveness tesla we consider the Chinese were it to be most competitive and by the way we do very well in china, because our trent china team is less time. how worried are you that the unionize unionization effort that just took place at what I should say effort, but the the

the news that the new wages, unlike at gm, afford that they're coming for you? They are com, for you. What is that going to mean to you and your business? Well, I mean I think it's generally not goods. Adversarial relationship between people online. In one group at the company of another group. In fact I mean I I I disagree with the idea of unions, but the protests for a reason that is different than you may expect is, which is I just don't like anything which creates kind of lords and peasants sort of thing, and I think the unions naturally try to create negative in a company and create a corrupt sort of lords and peasants, a situation where there are many people at tesla who have come and gone from working on the line to being and senior management. There is no laws and peasants everyone, the same table reports. This appalling allowed a gm

the special elevator for only for senior executives, we'd have no such thing tesla. You know that and the things are actually know the people on the line, because I worked on the line and I walked the line and I stepped in the factory and I send a work beside them, so I'm no stranger to them at an action many times where I've said well, can't we just hold a union vote, but apparently a company is not allowed to hold a union vote, so it has to be. Some are cultural, but the unions can't do it. So I said well just hold a vote and see what happens. The actual problem is the is, is the opposite? It's not that people are trapped at

building cars, but the treadmill challenges is: how do we retain great people to do the hard work of folding cars when they have like six other opportunities that they can do that are easier than the actual difficulty is? Is that both in cars is hard work and there are much easier jobs, and I just want to say that I'm incredibly appreciative of those involved cars and they know it- you know so. There does there, I don't know, maybe there will be realised if, if I say like, if tells a guess, you're nice will be because we deserve it. We fell in some way, but we certainly try hard to it'll ensure the prosperity of everyone. We give everyone stock options and we've made many people who are just walking the line who didn't even know what stocks were. We made the millionaires

Sir we're gonna, where no time one cup, a quick questions. When do you have the time to tweet or the post had had it at that? Think about all the time, as I said, I use the bathroom sometimes it all the time feeling if we were to if we were to open up our once and look at the screen time. What does it look like. Well about every three hours. I make a trip to the laboratory. that's the only time you do this seems like there are laws, nor do they will be like brief moments between meetings. I made a sort of say I've like seventeen job, so you know and I guess equally at work? That's why

it is, but I'm thinking just in terms of your mind, sharing I mean by the way there's a lot of people who should be working, who are, who are honest and technically posting on twitter is or excess. His work is this kind of work. So that's you know there is that, but now I'm in, I think, Amman Well, I guess you'd probably amount for longer than I think I know, but I think that you I've already today, if we're the screen time of like number hours per week, to know that's a scary number as probably I dunno it's little over an hour a day or something like that just an hour a day, if we really looked at this together, do you have your phone with you yeah you wanna, look Ok, here we go Your screen time in the time sometimes

Is there a number one? I know that's why I thought there I just got a new phone, so I think this is not accurate, because cism is one minute yeah for sure one that it over the week as there go it'll go to the weak cases as it's still wrong. It's it's more than four minutes is going to be fine, so this is not accurate, literally so four minutes new newfound tim cook's end of the pont neuf, a new phone. yeah? I should ask by the way- because I just mentioned him cook: do you feel like you're going to have to have a battle with him eventually, that is that the next fight. I mean out over the app store the idea of making for women. Like noted. also of the app store that will make a fallen sam. Is apparently thinking about making a final johnny

Israel needs? Megaphone I mean if those are essential needs megaphone megaphone, but I had a lot of christopher wray, so I mean I do think, there's a there's, a fundamental challenge that phone makers have at this point, because you've got basically a black rectangle, You know: how do you make that better? Should you want to do that? What does that was that look like in in he wanted, though? That's literally, he has got good praised in the head on yearling, while they were now that we are already. I was angry words over, were the best interface forbid, neuro interface directly to your brain. So that davion neural how far we using from that and how excited or scary does. to be, and we read this obviously about a monkeys who died, as you know, how much we think about that.

Yet actually, the that this is that that the usda inspector came by nearly by narrowing facilities literally said in her where she has never seen a better animal care facility. It is, we are the nicest channels that you could possibly be even to the rats and mice, even though they did the plague and everything. So it is, it is like monkey Paradise, so that the thing that's gets conflated is that there were some terminal monkeys where This is like this is actually several years ago when the monkeys were about to die and you're like okay, we've got an experimental device, it's all kind of thing which only put on a monarchy, that's about to die, and then you know now the monkey died but denied, because the nearly died, because it was your editorial case, a cancer or something like that so

you're like it has never caused the death of a monkey, must lester hiding something from me as it is now, of course, it's a monkey and in fact, we've we've had monkeys with knurling implants for up to three years and they're doing great so Everyone replace their nearly twice as an ever getting ready to do the do first implants, and hopefully in a few months the growing of limitations on your link, I think I unequivocally good speaking of the double edged sword. Any piece of confrontation, a single, had soared because the first implementation will be too. Enable people who have lost the brain body connection to be able to operate a computer

phone faster than someone who has hands that network I'm. So you can imagine if stephen hawking could communicate faster than someone who had four for body functionally incredible. That would be well that's what this device will do and we should have a proof of that in a human. Hopefully in a few months it already works in monkeys worked quite well with monkeys that can play video games just using just by thinking so that in the next application, after the the sort of those dealing with paraplegic some quadriplegia quadriplegic is going to be an audition vision. Is the the next thing so it's like,

it is like has lost both eyes or the optic nerve has failed, basically with, as they have no possibility of having sort of some ocular correction that that that will be the next thing. When your link is a direct vision, interface and in fact, then you can be like geordi la forge from star trek. You could, you could see it like. Any frequency actually could see radar. If you want to find a crisis and then we're gonna do, and this conversation, which I think has taken everybody inside the mind of you- must today both moving we go people can actually goes to self. I've in cars and vision and everything else- and I asked this question people to judge transportation secretary? It's actually something you re tweeted. So I wanted to ask you the same question and there's a big question about autonomous vehicles and

safety of them, but there is also a question about when you will be politically palatable in this country for people to die in cars that are controlled by computers, which you say we have thirty five forty thousand deaths every year in this in this country. If you could bring that number down to ten thousand five thousand, that might be a great thing, but do we think that the country will accept the idea that one thousand people that your family might have as a perished in a in a vehicle as a result not of a human making, a mistake, but a computer, yes, well, first of all, humans are terrible drivers, so people text and drive that

and drive, they get into arguments they you know, and they do all sorts of things in cars that they should not do so. It's actually remarkable that there are not more deaths than there are. What we find with computer dry, is, I think, probably an order of magnitude reduction in deaths. I think, and now in the u s has actually far fewer deaths per capita than the rest of the world. If you go worldwide, I think there's something close to a million deaths per year due to automotive accidents. So I think computer driving will probably drop that by ninety percent or more it won't. It won't be perfect, but it'll be ten times that the public looks at then do you think the government will accept that will add

in large numbers. The airports have we been so obviously true that it really cannot be denied, and what do you think? I know we talked about the timeline before and I know people criticise you for out timelines. That may not have come true just yet. What do you think? Is it by the way. Do you feel, like you, have a series of actions said that sure, of course, whereas she said that- and so I hear I am optimistic about- I mean I'm, I think I'm actually optimistic about timescales. If I was not naturally optimistic only doing things that I'm doing, it's only when a solder rock company work like the car companies, I wouldn't have some sort of pathological optimism. Frankly, so

and as you pointed out, many people said they would fail, and in fact I say actually I agreed with them. I said yes, it probably will fail when I can, but I thought, spacex and tesla had less than ten percent chance of success when we started them so yeah arab The self driving things is I've been optimistic about it. We certainly made a lot of progress if anybody has tried the bear has been using the surface of trying beta the progress as every year has been substantial, and it's really now at the point where in most places, it'll take you from one place to another with no interventions, and the data is unequivocal that that supervised for self driving is somewhere around four times safer, maybe more than than just human driving by

by themselves. So I don t see it coming at what will actually really is another five or ten years, and in people are therefore not giving up, and you feel like it. I have invested in something that that hasn't happened. Yet. Is that is that fair to them and that's the other question people have about their will? I mean I think that they've they've, all with rare exception, for it wasn't happening because they were investing, despite a very clear that they don't think it's real. So they're, not saying a word. We just leave everything human says hook, line and sinker added, but the thing is that I mean I would be a fair criticism of me to say that I'm late, but it doesn't but always lever in the end, this profound question I took note of this. It was november eleventh and you too

twitter and you only two words he said amplify empathy. I've taken aback by that given all the things that have been going on in the world. Do you remember what you were thinking? Well, I think it's quite literally Emily I understand it, but you always always going on what why? Why did you write that, while I was encouraging people to employ empathy, fight empty, initially, centric quite little, but work was there's something It happened to him that you had seen that you said yourself I need to. I want to say that. I going to throw some friends and we all agree that we should try to amplify empathy and sorrow. If you wanted an unvarnished look inside the mind of elon, must I think you just sought to exercise its pretty simple you. I must thank you very much.

The conversation or the, That was a conversation from the dual book summit. You can check this feed, for others views from the deal, the stage where we we too leaders in business politics, a culture where shape the world this episode Produced by Evan roberts, it was it by laying chan mixing by kelly p, glow. original music by daniel power. The rest, the deal book events team includes joys. Caroline Brunel here we duffy Angela austin Hayley, has Dana preschool ski mac. Sir, yes way leave especial thanks. To sam dull, Nina Lassen, robbie match you, that's why steam and k corrective

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