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special council has been me to take over the case. My colleague mentioned it explains why that turn of events is increasingly pitting. The interests of hunter by against those of president, it's thursday August seventeen- I mike it's gonna, we're gonna, do this, and this is the song that never and oh, this is this. It goes on and on again yeah some quality stuff right. There are already yep. Okay, mike yeah, welcome back good to be here to get to this point where we are right now in the

by an saga where he now faces a full blown special council investigation. I think you have to go back to the last time you were on the show to a plea deal that we thought was a done deal between hunter Biden and the department of justice, and that plea, deal like it was going to forever and this year, His long sprawling investigation into hunter binds conduct over the past few years and any episode were unite. What about that deal which ran on July twenty six that morning the plea deal was going to be signed and it was all going to be over. That didn't happen correct. So when hunter binds heading into court that morning, we think this is going to be a very perfunctory day. This is a hearing that is essentially glorified paperwork. He's going to go before a judge. The judge is going to ask him some questions to make sure he knows what he's doing some day.

Humans are going to be signed and we're going to have this plea deal that brings to an end this wide, ranging investigation that had looked at all this different stuff in his life right and just remind us what is in the plea deal before we get to how it goes off the rails, so over the past five years So the united states attorney in delaware, who was a point by donald trump and actually kept on by the by an administration to lead this investigation. Guy named David weiss Yes, he had looked at a broad array of hunter binds conduct from his foreign business dealings with companies like borri smell, which I'm sure people have heard of, but are not totally sure what it is energy coming

in ukraine, yes and his use of drugs, his purchase of a weapon, his finances, its taxes, right and donald trump, and republicans claim that this investigation was going to end the five decades of the by family in american politics? It was going to expose criminality that had been committed by hunter Biden and his father, but instead we were left with two misdemeanor tax charges. And a diversion agreement on the purchase of a gun in which under Biden had lied to the federal government. But whether he was using drugs at the time that he tried to make the burgess and no jail time right. As we talk about with you in this last episode. This was an outcome. This was

please deal from that big vast landscape down to these two and a half or so charges that really infuriated republicans, who felt it was a scandalously sweetheart deal that a president sun and a huge relief for democrats would always felt this investigation was bigger than it needed to be, and that provide never committed any crime. So this just made sense current. Ok. So what happened exactly two? This plea bargain deal you just described so hunter Biden went into court for what we thought was going to be this straightforward perfunctory here and it quickly went off the rails herself at the heart.

If this deal, one of the main reasons why hunter Biden came to the table was his understanding that he was going to get immunity, essentially insulation from prosecution from the justice department for all of this conduct, his foreign business dealings, his work for rees ma his work with chinese, business officials the whole scope of this department of justice investigation? His understanding was that once he pleaded guilty to a tax charge and a gun charge that he would never be charged with anything else related to the original mastication. Yes under Biden says I'm coming to the table I'll plead to these tax charges, but

you gotta give me an ending to this investigation that has hung over me and my family for so many years, and I mean maybe this is an obvious question, but why exactly as that so important them? Well, I think that if you're under investigation, it's important to know that it's over and you can truly take a deep breath, but there was something else, something bigger that was hanging over this, and that was donald trump. So at the heart of the steel? Is immunity amino need that hunter Biden wanted? Why did he really want immunity because of his father loses real action and donald trump becomes? President donald trump has essentially said he will use the justice department to prosecute his political he's right and an Biden certainly number one number two number three. Would you, wherever you want to put him in. be number one number to anybody. Knowers hunter Biden worries that donald trump could be real, acted and turn his department

into kind of a one man wrecking ball aimed at hunter. Yes, one of the most important things that I think gets lost in the shop of trump is his desires to use the powers of the federal government pro actively against those he doesn't like, and he has said this openly. He has said this is what I'm going to do. So if your hunter Biden, you know that you ve been a target of donald trump and there's a chance. Your father could lose reelection. You want that protection and hydroplanes understanding, as it prepares to sign this document in a perfunctory manner, get this deal over with is that he has baked into this deal exactly that level of broad immunity you described correct, but in the courtroom. The judge looking at this deal focuses in on the paragraph on immunity and starts questioning the prosecutors about what appears to be a pretty broad level of immunity in in response,

the judges questions the prosecutors, give a far more narrow definition of what they think the immunity applies to how narrow narrow, too hunter binds taxes and his purchase of the gun, but not all of his foreign business dealings over the past decade. So not this protective shield of a very broad kind, that hundred Biden wanted and understood. This please deal to give him that would potentially protect him against a future donald trump department of justice investigation and set a criminal charges correct, and it was outrageous because this was one of the most high profile investigations the justice department had undertaken in the past few years. Both sides had

finally come to a deal and they walked into a court room in front of a judge where they knew the deal would be closely looked at and picked over and they had completely different understandings of the most central part of the whole agreement. So without outrageous got him, really clear is the fact that professional lawyers on a case, this important somehow had been so derelict that they didn't fundamentally understand the deal that they were party to. Yes, how did that happen? Hunter Biden, defence lawyer, is a guy named Chris Clark, whose a former federal prosecutor and is considered to know what he's doing so, it's hard to think like it. I don't think that Chris clerk walks in the courtroom, thinking- oh we're, gonna pull a fast one here and get brought immunity that the government wasn't gonna, give us what about the justice department learn? How do you explain them not necessarily knowing just how brought this immunity was. It doesn't make any sense in one of the big

questions we still have is that how do you have such a high profile matter? That you know was going into court and there be diametrically different views on the most important right, so you dont know why these experience, prestigious lawyers on both sides are confused, but they archivist correct in the judge, goes to highlight other issues she has with this deal, and this thing which we thought was a lay up. An essentially signing of paperwork gets put on hold. She says justice department underlines lawyers go back and traffic in this regard. Same page, correct, which is a logical thing for both sides to leave the court room, maybe with their tails between their legs, is all pretty embarrassing. and try to renegotiate this plea also that everyone is on the same page. Is that what happens in the days that follow theirs

back and forth between hunter binds, lawyers and the prosecutors in delaware. On trying to reach a deal in those negotiations are not going well, and it appears like that. he'll or whenever deal anyone they had is unreachable and if the deal Unreachable then there's only sort of one conclusion, or do him it is about where this is added as a gun he's going to walk away from it. They're gonna walk away from a case of the is it or they're going to have to go to trial, but my going to trial be very,

bad for hunter Biden, because, unlike a plea deal, it would be public, it would probably be long and it might mean jail time, which was never part of his pluto and a trial. Correct me. If I'm wrong, it doesn't get hunter Biden, any immunity from future criminal charges right, correct and it would put him in an incredibly stress. full position he would be on trial and to your point on trial means greater exposure to time in prison, but I think that in the aftermath

of the deal unravelling in the courtroom. There was a sense in hunter binds orbit that he had kind of looked into. The belly of the beast saw what it looked like end was more open to fighting than he had been at any other point up until then. Why, though, because what he saw didn't scare him or did scare him, I'm a little confused. If you understand walking into the court room the government and hunter Biden essentially partners, they have come to an agreement on a really complex matter, but that partnership that got them to that deal has been shattered dramatically in front of them and if you're hunter Biden you're pretty upset, because you thought this thing was over and you thought you had this protection going forward and now

that's all gone. So if you want to go and indict me on misdemeanor tax charges like have at so once the immunity he thought he was getting is gone He sees virtually no upside left in this plead he's just suddenly pleading guilty to crimes, why should he do that? It is not getting any return so he decides screw it amateur war, the dice and hope to beat those charges entirely at trial correct. So, as these negotiations are falling, and it becomes clear that a trial might beyond the horizon David wife, that? U s attorney, who was appointed by trump kept on by attorney general merrick garland to lead. This investigation goes tomorrow, garland within ask and ask that will take

high profile investigation is gone all this attention and will more it up several times more and that ass. was for a designation that would give him some more powers and authority and independence. Ass, mere garland, to make him a special council good afternoon and three days after weiss, sat request, merit garland, today to announce. The appointment of David Weiss as a special council stands at the justice department in washington and makes an announcement. The point When Mister weiss reinforces for the american people, the departments committed meant to both in depend. And accountability in particularly sensitive matters. I am confident

that Mr Weiss will carry out its responsibility in an even handed and urgent manner and in accordance with the highest traditions of this department. Thank you. I will do it back. Support for this programme is provided by chevron. Carbon capture and storage is critical in helping make progress towards global net zero. That's my sovereign is developing in deploying carbon capture and storage technology. the target of storing twenty five million tons of c o two per year in storage and offsets by twenty thirty, which is equivalent to the emissions of three point: one million homes, annual energy use. That's energy and progress, visit, chevron, dot, com, slash carbon capture, I'm alina baronne lou, I'm john branch, I'm an editor for the new york times are right for the tabs with fascinates me about basketball. Sneakers is how they can be markers of both high,

fashion and performance. You know here the squeaking sounds of sneakers on a vast court. There is a scientific principle behind that called stick slip. I talked to molly it's funny she's designing these incredibly ordinate basketball. Shoes she's, also one of the very few women to design sneakers for the biggest male athletes. Every time the sneaker grabs the hardwood floor. It's sticky, knicks and unstuck in the stickied unstuck in creating a sound, I got a basketball sneaker. I see design, that's impacting our culture at so many different levels. Besides just sports, when I started reporting on the speaker squeak, I came to understand that we hear this type of sound all around us from the street The violin car tyres even spiny, lobster the new york times. explore how we bring more of life to life again, why times dot com, flash life,

What's our understanding of why David? Why this? U s attorney looking into hunter Biden's conduct and when negotiate pleaded? I fell apart, why he asked to basically be promoted to this rarefied status of national council with all these new powers and why attorney general merrick, ireland decided to grant him that I think to understand or try and understand this. We have to unwrap what a special council is so up until this point garland and the justice department had been saying It has all the independent said he needs. This is a trump appointed

who s attorney, he's off do in his day, but what a special council appointment does. Is it really so artificer gaza, because it comes with added provisions that give that prosecutor more independence, or at least the perception of there are three major things that do that? The first is a prosecutor Still reports the attorney general but is not manage on a day to day basis, remember this is an investigation in which the president's son is under investigation by his justice department. That is run by his political point is right as the classic case, where a special council seems merited because you want that process, you to feel independent, since the investigation is kind of looking inward at the president and the president's family kind of reminds me of trump and

the council robber mahler, who was looking at trunks relationship to russia. You want independent prosecutor if that prosecutors. Looking at the president correct. The second thing is that if that price secure wants to take a major investigative move and is overruled by their higher ups? The attorney general has to report that congress as an added layer of accountability, extra sancho into how the investigation is being run in. The third thing is that that prosecutor, when they are done with their investigation, can write a report, a potentially damning report to the attorney general about what they found in that report can become. public, similar to what we saw at the end of robert mothers investigation into trumps ties to russia. Well, why do. We think weiss if he was, as we have reported in the times at the end of a year, long investigation

suddenly wants all these layers of independence from the justice department to tourney general garland hasn't said. Why weiss wanted this and white has an answer that question either and that has left us trying to figure out what was behind that request? Why did he think he needed and what the logical explanation will? One is Is that if he's going to go to trial, having that extra layer of insulation and perception would be a great thing for a prosecutor to have, if they're walking into court and trying to make a case against the president's son correct? The second is that it might be trying to get leverage to make that deal. A new plea deal correct because remember the plea deal fell

Are they tried to put it back together and if your hunter Biden do you want a special council mocking around still in your life in doing all these different things, and when, if you make a deal, it could all potentially go away? Interesting in the third thing might be that political winds on the hunter by an investigation have just become so great It is so front of mine for republicans there. So many conspiracy theories about what's going on. Why Wouldn't you want that extra layer of independence or perception of it? As you finish, this investigation right and I think what you just said speak. Two, why attorney general garland kind of had no choice but to grant him these powers if garland head? said to him, no I'm not making you special counsel with all that independence, it would surely look

the attorney general was taking a step to handicap the rest of this case and protect the president and current ok. So, given everything like that's happened up to this point, I won't talk about how we expect ways to use this new status. He has a special council because it seems like it could mean a couple of things. It could just let him, like you said, prosecute the trial with greater independence or perhaps use it as leverage to get a better plea deal but it could also, in theory, led him to pursue all kinds of new avenues in an investigation Joe Biden enemies- and I ask that is because, as we know, republicans in congress I been turning over their own rocks when it comes to hinder by living, calling their own witnesses whistleblowers who are making allegation is that the original investigation was biased. In theory, couldn't david weiss as special council mop all that up and

investigate honour Biden in a new, more energized way. I think you're going too far afield. It's hard to think that after one it has looked at all these different matters in hunter binds life over the past five years. That house republicans who have less power than he does have really uncovered something criminal that he didn't look at it doesn't totally make sense.

But I don't know, we know that in court one of waste is prosecutors said the investigation was ongoing. And if you look at the history of these types of prosecutors have been appointed in the post Nixon era. They often start on something and end up on a completely different place than anyone thought when they began that. I- and I think that brings us to democrats nightmare scenario mike, which is that the appointment of a special council looking down turbine won't just be about David Weiss, preparing for a trial on tax and gun charges, but will morph into a sprawling investigation, potentially even involving the president himself, his car.

fucked and it will become a major political liability in the presidential race, because it's going to produce in theory, streams of embarrassing revelations, a final report that could be used by republicans as a weapon against Joe Biden and could ultimately become in the eyes of democrats, decisive in determining the result of a close twenty four election? If you're a Democrat, you remember how the Clinton email investigation ended in two thousand and sixteen and you can easily see oh no investigative steps happening in the final months of the election, a report dropping in the summer of twenty twenty four. These are all things that Democrats lived through. grew so dramatically and twenty sixteen

Who knows where the special house was going to go? Who knows how it's going to end? Who knows what the report may say right? They rather not happen correct it's interesting, because every time we talk about donald trump and a special council investigation or a set of criminal charges, he faces the latest, of course, just being in georgia. This past week. We always talk about a politically as something that makes him stronger, but we all seem to be operating under the assumption that when it comes to Joe Biden, a special council, a trial criminal charges against his son hunter. That politically makes president Biden weaker, and I wonder, is that actually true

Yeah trump is portrayed himself as a victim where Biden has portrayed himself as a person of integrity. So if you have an investigation that, in the final year of a campaign, is kicking off different disclosures or news stories that raised it's about whether you are truly a person of integrity that could be damaging. So nothing good could come of this for the Biden's.

So as we think about how this case is now going to unfold with weiss as special counsel and hunter Biden increasingly not liking, to plead the offers on the table, I wonder if we can presume for a moment that there is going to be a trial, but no sound certainty, but has a much greater chance of it now than there was before. How do you think about that trial and what it might look like? We could put the Biden family itself in a very awkward position where the president's son is going into core to face down his father's justice department. Right, I'm not sure if that's ever happened before, there's no way it has its listen, another extraordinary twist in this story that doesn't appear to be going away,

and sitting here. Listening to you and thinking about this trial mike. It strikes me that a trial might put the interests of father and son very much at odds in a way that they haven't been because a plea deal seemed like it was in. The interest of hunter button, gets it over with and his father, no messy public saga anymore. That ends, if there's a trial, that hunter Biden thinks he needs to pursue, everything becomes public. Everything becomes messy. I can't imagine that's what his father brought on a daily basis. You would have the president's son in court against his father's justice department fighting for an acquittal at the same time that his father is run for real action against the man in donald trump, who says he's going to essentially throw hunter Biden in prison for the rest of his life. If he went

Don't know what that is. I dont know how to describe that. I don't have the word for it, but if you're Joe Biden, a person who is running on me did they? U restored integrity to the white house? That is not just a distraction but mining undermining if you're Joe Biden That's the last thing you want, but if you're too, tromp whose trying, any way possible to attach criminality to the Biden family, that's a gift the am I like very much thanks for having me The in the latest twist in the hunter Biden, legal saga below

your who represented him in his plea negotiations with the department of justice. No says he will step down. So that he can testify as a witness on hunter binds behalf the case proceeds towards a potential trial. That lawyer Chris Clark is expected to testified that the justice department tried to back out have a plea deal that was legally binding or the right back with no fees or minimums banking with capital? One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with no overdraft fees. Is it even a decision? That's banking, reimagined! What's in your wallet terms, apply see?

capital one dot com, slash bank capital, one n, a member f d. I c here's what else you need to know on Wednesday, a former campaign aide to congressman jorge santos, the embattled new york Republican was indicted for impersonating, a top official in washington. The aide samuel Miller is accused of sending fundraising emails and making phone calls in which he pretended to be the chief of staff to house speaker Kevin Mccarthy. The charges against the come three months after santos himself was indicted on thirteen federal counts, including money laundering, wire fraud and look, theft of funds, tidies episode was produced by Mary wilson, shannon, then, and only then, that it was edited by Devon. Taylor and rachel question contains original.

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