From the New York Times. I'm likeable borrow. This is the daily careful what you tweet, because you don't know what is going to come back to haunt you as the would lose in more online. During the pandemic, greater attention and weight is, being given to the things that happen there. We live at a time Where is it? We are what we call cancel culture, especially when it comes to perceived wrongs. If you do something wrong, you're supposed to be out of here, and it could have been five minutes ago, it could have been point thirty years ago. That has led to a growing phenomenon of public colleagues that for some necessary way of demanding accountability from public figures. Those in power you know it's a sort of testament to the power of a medium like twitter. That's really democratize thought an opinion I mean here and for others are Mamma tat, in which a specific point of view is imposed on everyone, even those with.

Little power through rising intolerance and public shame, but I find- and I find a little discouraging is that it appears to me that social media is a nuance, destruction machine and I don't think that's helpful for democracy and increasing it's all been described by the same phrase- cancel culture, council, culture, its public, shaming by more. This is dangerous today in the first of two parts, my colleague Jonah Bromwich, on cancel culture and why it's actually a twenty twenty election story worth paying attention to its Monday August tenth sojourn. On Friday, we spoke of this year twitter about the ways in which that platform is incentivize in a particular kind of communication and engagement, one that rewards emotion and

What are the specific phenomena that we talked about in this interview in the idea of cancel culture? which I'm feeling slightly nervous, Discussing but I am ready to do so if you are I'm feeling the same way, but let's go for it right. This is free, but my instinct is that depending on your or demographic and how much time you spend on Twitter in particular You have either known about cancer culture for a couple of years, or you ve, heard about it about a month ago. Does it feel like the right assessment? I think that's exactly, right- and I would add that for me it actually doesn't start with the toward phrase- cancel culture but with just the one word cancel were cancelled, and when does that word into your life so grow, I was an enormous fan of Cotonou S,

Please you go and I pay pension to everything he says we born artists. We born and a wee Hale down by societies. Perception of everything he does. Taylor, I'm really happy for you unless you finish Bobby. I think Beth, videos of all tat and in spring of twenty eighteen. Our great reporters Harmonica Monica, did this big story with him and he's interviewing cognate around Wyoming and kind? You can't stop here, about whether or not he is going to be cancelled. He says I want to be It's all they're gonna cancel me because I didn't cancel Trump all this stuff in house like why these weeks and cancel the. Why? What does that mean to you, and I guess what I mean to him?

So he is worried about. What's gonna happen to his reputation, I am the number one most impact for artists of our generation. Conduits is built. This enormous fan base write. His first comes out in two thousand for so it's been more than a decade where he's been building a fan base. I am Shakespeare in the flesh Walt Disney. Their families is there for the music, but there also ok with chinese persona unkindness person. Is Nike, Google knowingly arrogant, and you know, he's outspoken and one of his most famous points being outspoken. Is he gets on tv, any says joys, but doesn't care about black people? George Bush doesn't care about but in twenty sixteen, I don't want to procure that's why I stand by this carrier

They start supporting Donald Trump. I just love trop, that's my boy like you know it's like so many and so video by twenty eighteen, the heights of candidates, tromp praise has gotta be wanting. Tweeted you'll have to agree with Trump countries, support for Donald Trump, unknown thing, but the mob can't make me not love him. We are both dragon energy. I don't agree with everything. Anyone does that's what makes as individuals and we have the right to independent thought and he's worried about those people with whom you cultivating their reputation, his fans turning their backs on him, and so that's what he's wearing about being cancelled. Yes, we have the right to independent thought and independently think that Congo has lost his mind. Oh, but it's worth mentioning by the way that can't you heard about selling.

Right after that, so he did heard his reputation with a ton of fans, but not enough to keep him from having a best selling album aberrant castle castle beforehand care of culture and what does cancel calls are actually mean in the realm that we're talking so. I feel like instead of asking what it means. The best question is like: where did this come from and twenty eight as you probably remembers, the midst of me to move men and people like Al Frank in and Lucy K and Bela Riley are definitely in the midst, having challenges the reputations but people inaction. So the word cancelled comes from somewhere totally different and that places actually black twitter, you ve. Finally, welcome demarcation Finally, I welcome to my conclusion home come inside. This is my house, so I live. This is a word that was in circulation.

Long time, twenty fourteen twenty fifteen twenty sixteen- and it's really important to emphasise this- it's a joke. It was being used as a joke. You know I can't a rude at even off your coffee. I know you want some cause. I do in its it. So One really early example of that is: there's this online character. Joanna scammer, you said visas and around the scammer. Has this video, where she's dealing with this espresso maker? That's over this council. We only coffee when we have sparkling water than she's like this espresso maker is cancelled, and it's that kind of thing. So people use it in this very flip way to express I'm done with this. That's some heavily the thing: that's not there and twenty eighty to the same degree is cancelled. Culture right like cancelled as their already, but to cancel a culture and call our culture are not yet

on Sunday, the Atlanta Braves Pitcher, Sean Newcomb, came within one strike of a no hitter, but all the conversation in the dugout was about these tweets that he sent out almost seven years ago. It is not so in twenty eighteen we start seeing people use. The word cancelled, way that Kenya used it, and it pertains to a surprising number of situations in the news. This is proof that, even if you ve changed- or you are not the same person you wear when you were seventeen or eighteen, it looks really bad some one of the things that kind of- immediately comes to mind, is the situation that happened with James Gun you know what there's another name. You might know me by Sternward poop, legendary outlaw, so James was a director of this marble movie guardians the Galaxy Malta hundred million dollar director of the guardians of legality, France by after James Guns,

did something that was aunt. I tromp alot of supporting the president were frustrated all tweets of his began to resurface. They started unearthing old tweets of his tweets, in which he joked about the holocaust and aid, say included jokes about issues such as well, and molestation gun, and so there was this firestorm because James Gun had said these things, and after these tweets, weren't serviced Disney to fire gin, come from directing his third movie in the Disney, essentially booted him from making guardians of Galaxy three stating that guns tweets. Are indefensible and inconsistent with our studios values. So this dynamic the thing haven't James gone the thing that Cotonou worried about it, starts to become a dynamic that many people are noted

What one danger I see among young people, particularly in college campuses, molly- and I talk about this- it prompts Barack Obama aware, but I do get a sense sometimes now among certain young people- and this is accelerated by social media. There is this sense, sometimes of the way of me. Making change is to be as judge mental as possible. About other people, so in the fall of twenty nineteen Brok Obama's addressing these youth activists, and he says that he takes issue very specifically with colored culture. I can sit back and feel pretty good, I myself, because man, you see our work, I was I called you out, which is kind of slightly more out of touch synonym for cancer culture. I get on tv watch, my show

really interesting about what he says. He actually kind of get behind what he thinks. The motivation for college culture is this idea of purity and you're never compromised and you're, always politically woke and all that stuff you should get over that quickly. The world the world is: so he decries the idea purity in the idea that people who are calling other people out have no issue of their own. If all you're Doin is cast in stones here, you have your private. I gotta get better at ease President Obama has cheated on something that people who are less familiar with this term and with the so called culture are, and you only worried about with Censoriousness, which is black and white thinking about how people are and for the most part, his comments really seem to resonate with people. There are other people who kind of feeling he's ignoring something and that's the power of bees, able to assemble in numbers online and really kind of talk about and determine new norms.

Its acceptable, and what is it so rather than let those They should be made by those who are already in power. You get to the kind of make decisions for yourself what is acceptable to saying what is it so? Those people they might say that prison Burma's view of kind of call our culture is, he calls it is overly narrow, even dismissive So how do we get from Obama delivering admonition, which I suspect was not adopted wide? across the internet? To now, will what crazy is when I was looking back at went. Obama gave a speech to me. It felt like so so long ago, and I was like November twenty nineteen are you killing me and the reason I think that it feels like so long ago is because of course, the pandemic, and because the weird things that have happened with time since it started for us in New York in March. Was the pandemic influence that so think about your own social life? For a second I would imagine you use

social media- and that is a supplement to your much broader social life- were you see real people and you have real interactions and you are probably more concerned with what happens offline. At the end of the day, then you are with us, happens online. But now we're all endorse your social life, really narrowed, you're, probably not seeing all that many people, and so so media that becomes your social world and you started really care what happens on there in a way that you, probably more quiet, is invested, and before we all went endorse, I mean we ve seen that social media usage in particular. During the pandemic, in the U S has just shot up. I think Twitter reported that its usage grew something like twenty three percent since last year during the same period, and then Facebook actually said that in countries that were hit hardest by the pandemic usage of their apps went up by seventy percent. And how does that connect to this idea

cancellations, the dynamics that feed cancellation or cancel culture are intensified by? What's happened and nowhere is that really more obvious than in what since two thousand Roman, without this is our colleague the food writer? That's right, so I was ruminants. This really can a whirlwind grown virus experience just from the outside. Looking it out and Roman is the best selling cookbook author of nothing, fancy and dining in advice. We all need right now thousand thank you stop by, because in the initial month the pandemic recipes for gaining popularity. It's it's nice to sort of beating gather even under these strange. An anxious circumstances is by what is better for strange anxiety than filling your belly. People were cooking from her cookbooks people were discussing how much they loved her. She got a lot of praise

I think at one point she was called the pandemic queen. I mean she really had this run, where many many people seemed obsessed with her. Let's cut somethin We make a shower part, but then in May and everything changes on a dime Cookbook author and New York Times food colonists, Alison Roma, whose recipes the stew and the cookies have been viral, sensations, coming fatigue and success. And what happens is She gives this interview. An interview is really about all this new found, fame and so she's. Talking about what it's like, and in the interview, she discusses the concept of selling out what Creasy taken his daddy so crazy. Me and she describes how these two other very famous women Eureka was japanese and Chrissy taken whose half tie how she thinks they kind of sold out. Now she has an instagram page that has over a billion followers, where it's just like people running a content farm for her that horrifies me.

It's not something that I ever want to do and out and Roman re begins to get cancelled. That's right backlash to Romans, criticism, swift, there's a fire storm on twitter about this taken, tweeting, her disappointment. I don't think I've ever been so bummed out by the words of a fellow food lover chefs sunny Andersson on Instagram summing up. What's so many felt online saying, let me know if you need me to side, I any privilege, cookbook authors acting like the way they make their pennies is better than the way you make your dollars. It's not a directed action. Necessarily it's just this huge groundswell of opinion about Allison Roma, Roman, eventually apologizing online, saying in part, I am genuinely sorry. I caused you pain with what I said. It was flippant careless and I'm so sorry, so pretty soon, after that, there was announced that Island Romans column had been placed on temporary leave,

we found is and how water over resurfaced s an l, sketch and equipped than aired on the show in two thousand. The tv host can be see we're in black face, while perceiving Karelian Chris Rock found. So this drama without and Roman starts to repeat itself with all these various different people What kind of interesting about it is it's happening with celebrities story came: about me on personnel, doing an impression of Chris Rock in black face, and I was horrified none of the fact that people are trying to cancel me or cancel the show which is scary enough, but the thing the hard to me, the most was: how do I say I love this person and not a racist. I don't feel this way and instead, what it kept getting advised was too just stay quiet and to not say anything and that's the advice, because we're all afraid and its having with people who,

and celebrities and under good example of non celebrities is the situation that happened with Amy Cooper and Chris Cooper in Central park. Please don't come close to me. Please don't compulsory and, of course, this story, goes that Amy Cooper was walking her dog in central park off Leash Chris Coopers birder. He liked to go burning their and you're supposed to keep your dog on in the area where they were. He asked her to do to put her dog on a leash. Please, please Caldecott. Please call to grant an african american men in my life. Please tell me what have we like and soon thereafter she called the cops because of their interaction. Haven't accordingly, myself in my gun- and she called the cops and specifically said,

that he was a black man and that he was threatening her? Thank you. So there's a twitter uproar after this video with Amy Cooper and Chris Cooper goes by role and some people are trying to promote Chris Cooper and say well, look at the sky. Why are we talking about hamlets ignore her, and some people are really gunning for Amy Cooper, they're, trying to figure out who she is and where she works and they're saying in a. Why should this person have a job if they're gonna This way, especially in a movie or the country, is becoming more and more aware that calling the police black person can be really really bad for that person. Tonight, a white woman who wrongfully called the police. On a black man in New York cities. Central park has been fired from her job at an investment company and what does end up losing her job creation Koper as a Harvard graduate? A pioneering comic book to with interesting about this is that Chris crew?

he's interviewed and he's asked whether he thinks what happened to her was very appropriate. There's? No, not in the least I don't. Comfortable with defining someone fire a couple of seconds of what they ve done, it was no no it's using that it was a racist acts because it was a racist, but does that to find her entire life. I dont know only. He can tell us if that defines your entire life by what she did, going forward in what is done in the past. I can I can answer that so near the friendly, as it makes me, unkind and this is a great example kind of what happens when these dramas go from being interpersonal and go on twitter and suddenly the society wide thing, and so what Chris Cooper thinks of their interaction is actually less relevant than what these factions on twitter think of the interaction. So, finally, the last person kind of worth, considering here

is J K, so Jake arousing, of course, is known for running the Harry Potter books, but she also tweets a lot and particularly in the last several years, shaky rallying has treated a lot of things that people find to be transferred back and so she this summer road and open letter long The letter about her views on Trans people, her own mental health, her own experiences, and in that letter she said that she expected that people would meet it outrage and vitriol and would become the kind of firestorm that we are seeing in all these other situations, and she was right. I mean she was right. Caky rolling is defending herself after making continent we'll transgender comment, the woman who is like the world's best known children's author. Is finding herself against growing accusations of transphobia. It has spiral out of control summer,

so that, among the top trends on twitter, three of them were related to this story. Here, do you care rolling has been cancelled and it's ok corralling just got cancelled on Twitter yet again, so she until They see people an effort to cancel our in this letter and then it more or less happens. That's exactly right. I have decided that I'm quitting Harry Potter simply because I do not want to support a woman who is using power, her clout in her authority, so we're seeing these increasingly complicated and new wants situations getting grouped together. Under this phrase, you ve got a pretty clearly, racist act that is documented by Chris Cooper, who posted on and in doing so, this woman is challenged for actions and Chris Cooper. Doesn't find himself a situation where he has to convince the police that he was not in fact trying to threaten this woman. So in some ways the reaction on twitter begin.

By ensuring justice, but then actually increase Coopers eyes. It goes too far should lose your job. She received death threats Her reputation is demolished over this incident and then there's totally separate incident where you ve got a series of once by J K, rolling that our offensive to a lot of people and perceived to be transferred back and rolling. In writing this letter, explaining her comments and thoughts that she sees as far more nuanced is able to predict the response that she will receive. That she'll, be quote unquote cancelled. That said, unlike Amy Cooper Rolling, is a hugely public figure with a huge. Fortune, so what it means to cancel J K, rolling is sort of unclear. Write. Em in these are different situations. Both a very common. And they are now being reduced down onto this. Simple form

their categorized as the same thing, which is cancel culture right. I mean this is a perfect distillation of how complicated this all, because each single incident tickets chalked up to cancel culture, has In particular, it has its own details, it has its own contacts and the phrase has just becomes: probably broad brush for each of these kind of complicated nuance scenarios. Each of which really deserves to be unpacked on its own terms. Well, thank you very much and governor secretary burn. So that brings us to the fourth of July and a very special hello, to South Dakota Presidential, comes out and he gives this big speech amount. Rushmore green mobs trying to tear down statues of our founders, deface, most sacred Mama sales and unleash a wave of violent crime in our cities. Many of these

I have no idea why they are doing this, but some know exactly what they are doing. The president was talking about his enemies. One of their political weapons is cancel culture and he said that one of his enemies, weapons, driving people from their jobs, was cancer, culture, shaming dissenters and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism and it is completely alien to our culture and to our values, and it has absolutely no place in the United States of America. So here we have this thing: it starts years ago as a joke and black twitter. Ten months ago, Barack Obama is turned to worry about it. Now is this broad kind of Increasingly meaningless term refers to all sorts of situations and Donald Trump has taken it up and weapon eyes, did

as a shorthand for everything he says is wrongly liberals and Democrats. She's kind of ironic, because President Trump tweets about someone then or hostile people are gonna, go bother that person and in a court on court, cancel them and then three days later the Harbours letter publishes holding back. What would you do if you found your family had a dark secret legacy from me. Should green and Jordan Peel comes HBO, newest series, love craft country, a gene, bending drama that blurs the line between science fiction and reality in nineteen. Fifty Jim Crow America starring JANET, Majors journey, Smollett Courtney be vans and Michael Kenneth Williams, love craft country as August sixteenth at nine p m on each oh and streamline HBO Max this acerra caning. Hosted the cereal podcast. I want to know

you about our new show nice white parents, its reported by Junta, Jaffe Wall he's made some of the best most thought provoking most emotional radio stories. I've ever heard back and twenty fifteen Hannah wanted to find out what would happen inside this one public school in her neighbourhood. During a sudden influx of white students into a school that are barely had anyway tunes before and then not satisfied that she fully understood what she was saying. She went all the way back to the founding of the school in the nineteen sixties and then forward again up to the present day, and eventually hotter realized, she could put a name to the unspoken force that kept getting in the way of making the school better white parents I've been waiting so long to tell people about this show I now I can finally say it: go listen to nice white parents, nice, my parents made by Cyril productions in New York Times company. You can find it wherever you get your podcast this.

A letter was published on line by Harpers magazine under the headline, a letter on justice and open debate, and tell me about this honour. It comes from a hundred and fifty three people, their academics, their artists, their thinkers and their big names. It bore signature from people all over. The political landscape, like Malcolm Gladwell, David, Brooks NEO, Con Frances Fukuyama. Salman Rushdie is on their George Packer. The magazine writer is on their glorious. Steinem is on their Jake erratic is on their non Chomsky, Margaret Atwood and CNN Zone for reads. Victoria and the letter is essentially arguing for something that seems on its face both harmless and also just something that most people would defend. We were saying that you cannot have a just environment without that by being free of freedom and justice are in effect Secondly, linked to simple, straightforward straighten alone was to elementary to sign. It says

everybody believes that doesn't mean it's not important to they ask for the free exchange of him? nation ideas and what they say is that that exchange is essentially becoming constricted it's as if people can bear to hear an opinion that they disagree with that they ve never heard before about it is that there is more censoriousness and our culture. We are reacting more strongly to each other. It is a kind of perversity to the pleasure people get from ripping someone down. Oftentimes is extraordinarily disproportionate and we are kind of hammering away people with whom we disagree and what it does is. It makes examples out of certain people so that everybody watching now knows that are going mere matters that person for that type of behaviour inciting constricts. How you can behave and is very very and even though they never actually used the phrase, Canso culture, it still basically inescapable that three days after the

came out against cancer culture, they too are kind of taking issue with this thing, despite the fact that most of them are, are big, critics piss and entered. I read this letter and is one positive. I wanna zero it on about what alarms these writers They say that they are worried about quote an intolerance of opposing views, a vote for peace. Look, shaming and ostracism and the attendant need to dissolve complex policy issues. Blinding world certainty it certainly sounds like they are: describing cancel culture. Right. I would agree on and then of course we learned later on that the phrase cancel culture was actually in this letter at one point and then it was removed because people said you know disk. This is a phrase. That's confusing that people argue over. Let's talk about what we're talking about instead of using this phrase about what is the reaction to this letter,

What kind of amazing about this letter is? It is really the perfect document of cancer culture, because the text that you know like we said is harmless. Most people would agree with it if they didn't know what it was referring to. But the sub text of this letter is everything, and so, when its published it immediately set, if a firestorm, an angry debate has erected on social media after several prominent writers, academics and celebrities signed an open letter calling for an end to so called council companies are now not just this uprising going on about social justice? All of a sudden there funded by the culture that seeks to poor people accountable, don't understand that, can we hold accountable to false, who have always thought that untouchable and now they realize you're. Not so. The first thing they look at is the position that the people who signed this note. Almost everyone on this letter is a powerful voice. Many in the merry recognisable. They have these positions that come with elite institutions. I thought it was real

the ironic that these people, who have a great platforms to say whenever they want to say and great if they feel like there's some problems going on that they want to talk to collate. They ve got the provisions to do it, but for the first time in quite a long time I am going to speak for journalists of color. There has been space for them to say some things. They haven't been able to say. Who knows how long the window is open to critics of the letter look about, and they say these people powerful people are just scared. You know some of their power is being taken away from them and their using this cancer culture, too kind claw back their power to try and say: oh there's, a problem with people seeking the power that we have now to be cleared, a good argue that an author of this letter might make is well. I have stature. I have maybe tenure and unable to say things that people who are also worried about. This would not publicly said

The latter is not about asked. It's really about the people who have been called into not expressing opinions are able, gentlemen, fear that they will be fired war or shamed, but other people really key in on individual names. Unless so there are people, they know they are familiar with and they know what these people have said, that of offended them. So J corralling is a great example, as we already talked about how J corralling had said, something that many people found transfer back. If someone familiar with that sees J, Carollings name on the list, there read the letter is knocking about the free exchange of ideas. They're gonna be the letter as being about J K, railings freedom to say, transphobia things and that's what's frustrating to them, and you can see why that would be free training for some people. So let's am really really upset about things. J K ruling has been saying for years that I find transfer back. If people call me

reaction, D, J, corralling, an example of cancer culture, that's almost as if I'm being dismissed for being too sensitive ever unfairly. Judging her argument, when really, I might think hey, I reject with this person with enormous platforms sang and I'm expressing that view, so in a span of ten months between Brok, Obama and the Harpers letter mother saying very similar things they're getting such a different response right. So when Obama says this is just one person said and its novel, even that he would address it. So people really seem to hear about, but by the time the Harpers letter, This is even though its not that much time passes people arson the kind of red the subtext behind. Who is it that signing this thing? And that's really the division and how the letter is red comes from right. So there's the people who read for what it says and then there's people who really

for when it kind of like airports, says and then I would also returned to the the ruin of the pandemic and all of this, the primary place where people dealt with letter so kind of engaged with the Harpers letter wasn't actually like Harpers magazine it was on Twitter so the medium that is really and devising the kinds of conversations that the harbours signatories are talking about is the medium that first reacts and really picks up heart. This letter, right, I mean swirling around all of this- is that sort of chicken and egg thing that we talked about on Friday with the CEO of Twitter, the fact that of these kinds of situations that are being grouped into this idea of cancer. Culture They are good for user engagement, and so the social media, apps are actually rewarding debate here and not rewarding the new wants discussions around these situations and the specifics surrounding each one on its own terms,. That's exactly right so

you know I remain fascinated by this subject- I still want to engage with it, I'm still thinking about it, but at the same time it's not something. I want to talk about publicly. At this point it's become so so harsh words. What makes people so so angry and it feels like it's this incredibly difficult thing too: get right to say something new about to say some smart about to help people understand without getting caught in the exact situation that your met to be writing about? So I'm really with holding, I'm not saying a thing about it and then kind of look over on Twitter one day and in fact, the exact same data. Prs letter published. I saw a friend of mine doing exactly engaging with it, waiting right into it and getting almost immediately consumed by it tomorrow in part

two June overturns with the story of his friend and a complicated cancelling all the way back. When you need your bank capital, one is right. In the palm of your hand, see you can check your balance, deposit checks, pay bills and transfer money from your phone with a top rated app, and when done, banking put it back in your pocket, a banking we experience built around you and your life. This is banking. Re imagined, get started on mine anytime. What's in your wallet capital, one any member after I see here's what else you need nerdy Natanz reports that, as of Sunday

there have been more than five million corona virus infections in the? U S more than in any other country on earth. Brazil ranks second, with more than three million confirmed cases, and India is third. With tuna, Brazil breached its own grim milestone on Saturday, with more than a hundred thousand deaths from the virus willing at Nancy Pelosi ensure shimmer of chosen to hold this vital assistance hostage on air of very upstream partisan demands and the radical left Democrats. We just can't do that, so how we can do something with a mental later date, but wouldn't it be sounding some bills in a little while that are going to be very important, I will take care of pretty much the entire situation over the weekend. President Trump sign a series of executive waters that he said it would

Circumvent Congress to extend federal unemployment, benefits, defer taxes and slow evictions, but the time reports that the that the orders or- and We dubious and unlikely to have immediate impact troms order on unemployment benefits, for instance, requires states to kick in money that they may not have, and his eviction States that It'S- U S, policy, to minimize evictions and foreclosures during the pandemic, but does nothing to enforce that position. On Sunday, Democrats marked the orders as meetings and called for a comprehensive relief. The president's neither weaken I'm an unconstitutional actions. Further demand that we have an agreement.

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