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originated on the other side of the globe know requires legal protection in the eu and why so many are equally convinced that it's a bad idea that will backfire the it's Monday september? Twenty fifth emmy. I wonder if you can tell us about this piece of legislation, which was recently passed California is democratically controlled legislature and now sits on the desk of its democratic governor, Gavin newsome. So the bill is called the senate bill for three or sb for our three for short, and essentially it will make caste discrimination illegal in california, and that means everywhere from housing too,

employment discrimination based on cast will not be allowed. It will become a protected characteristic, just like sex gender, sexual orientation. People will not be able to discriminate on that basis. So, just define this word cast. I think we all have a little bit of a sense of what it means, but would benefit from hearing you explain it. So the caste system is one of the oldest systems of social stratification and it began in india thousands of years ago, it has its roots in hinduism and essentially a day, rigid social hierarchy that people are born into system really govern everything about people's lives from who they married to the job that they did and at a very basic level. You have at the top of this hierarchy. The brahmins historically were prisons, they had access to education and and were considered the purest than you of the warrior cast. The merchant cast. The labour cast and at the very bottom you

what were known as the quota quote untouchables who prefer to call themselves dollars and they were that are to be so impure that they were outcasts and they were ready added to doing jobs that were also seen as impure like street sweeping or a toilet cleaning, and they couldn't even drink from the same well, water as other cast over time. The system spread throughout south asia and spread to other religious communities like to christians and seeks an the cast hierarchy was also reinforced and british colonial rule and then, in the mid twentieth century caste discrimination was outlawed in countries like india, nepal. But, of course, we know that, just because you ban something on paper, does mean it actually is gone in practice and so cast is still a very strong marker of identity in many places, and you can see it in the privileges that people have in their social, sir

rules in the kinds of opportunities that they have access to, and this is really still present across authors much in the way. I imagine that, when racial prejudice in the- u s is outlawed, it nevertheless keeps happening just me It's been them? A lot is a mean. It doesn't persist right and some people have drawn that parallel the journalists, isabel wilkerson wrote a best selling book called cast and right? She compared the caste system in india to the way that race operates in america. The idea that you can be born into a certain hierarchy in that it can be extremely difficult to escape your circumstances. So the fact amy that there's a bill in california about caste discrimination, now suggests that lawmakers their believe

that this is not just something that remains a problem overseas in south asia, but it is somehow in imported into united states. That's right. They ve been hearing from their constituents in california that this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem and the diaspora, and that in order to protect residents of california they need to have a bill specifically focusing on caste discrimination in order to prevent this type of discrimination from happening in the future. But why? Right now I mean you too, to day ass for people from south asia have been coming to california for generations. Why? This moment for this bill to resolve this problem, so it really has to do with patterns of Emily Shit after a big immigration act in nineteen sixty five was passed in the united states. We saw a huge migration of people from asia,

cloning, india to the united states and a lot of those that came over were people who were skilled workers. They had degree these and were able to get jobs in the tech industry, and the medical industry in the united states and a lot of these people in india who were able to have the resources to get these types of degrees or from the upper cast, and so for a long time. Caste? Discrimination didn't really exist, or at least people didn't think it really existed because everyone was from the same cast by that's change over time, as the composition of the people who are coming from India has also changed large part, that has to do with certain changes that are happening in india itself. The country has put in place a system of essentially affirmative action where there are quotas. Now, for people from lower castes to go to universities,

to occupy government positions, and we are now starting to see the effects of those affirmative action policies where you had a lot of people who are from lower cost going. to these university, the now they suddenly have the degrees to get those goldworker visas to come to the? U s, and so the people who are coming over from india to the united states are actually much more verse and in california. We really seen that shift happen, because a lot of these people are coming to work, and I t jobs was in silicon valley, which is why we're seeing so much of this- you're being debated in california and now, pass,

suddenly. A much more diverse group of south asians are in a place like california, and I'm going to guess that that creates a greater opportunity for potential conflict once they arrive right and the caste issue really burst into public consciousness, and twenty twenty, when California brought a lawsuit against Cisco, which is a pretty well known, tech company and in the lawsuit, an employee who is, from a dalit background, accused two of his bosses, who are from upper class backgrounds of discriminating against him and his job on the basis of caste. He said that they had given him less pay that they had denied certain opportunities to him in the workplace, and the state on his behalf was suing cisco, and this really led to a huge conversation in

for me. I think in a way that we haven't seen before, and this was taking place at around the same time as the death of George floyd had sparked the black lives matter, movement, and suddenly people were able to describe their experiences of costs. emanation using vocabulary that was understandable to people who understood it in the context of race terms, like systemic termination and oppress communities. These are all concepts that now the public was much more familiar with fascinating, so The commission going on in the? U s in the wake of George floyd's deaths, wrenching conversation about race, oppression, systemic racism, that is giving people from south asia a framework for thinking about the discrimination that they leave they are experiencing here in the. U s, that's been imported from south asia. That's right!

It's around this time that people started to feel more comfortable talking about their experiences with caste discrimination. I mean we heard stories about people experiencing wage theft at the hands of their upper cast bosses. There are people talking about social exclusion that they weren't being allowed to eat from the same cops and plates as,

from an employer's. I spoke with one doctor in California who said that when other doctors in her city had found not that she was from a lower caste, they stopped referring patients to her practice and one person that I spoke to really stood out to me. His name was beam, know ryan, visual karma, hello, hi Van. How are you but he's forty four? He works at a convenience store in El Rito, california and he's from nepal originally, and he told me that he had experienced caste based discrimination growing up in nepal while growing as a child. I was not that much respected, especially when it comes to you know, entering a friend houses when he would hang out with his friends his friends. Parents wouldn't let him go into their homes because he was from a lower caste and I used to feel like. Oh, I felt like a insulted or discriminated

of course, one of the reasons to come to the eu, as is the catholic discrimination, and he eventually move to California. He got a job and at one point a few years ago he was looking for a room in a shared house and he found a great one, and on august eighteen, twenty twenty one I visited the how's he spoke of the landlord who is also from nepal. The landlord his contain men to welcome me as a team and the landlord was really excited him to move in as a single guys. So presumably he would be in a fire not too much of a disturbance. Everything was fine the landlord requested me the depository accounts, or so he gives the landlord his depositing and everything seemed like. It was fine, but then

six hours later he gets a call from the landlord and the landlord says. Sorry. I can't rent this room to you any more, and I was talking to me as I had a small, the unpleasant conversation with him and everything was finalized. That date, then I opting what what happened and why he lived over his word beam said he was asking questions. You know why and the land, he's giving all kinds of reasons he said he needs a room for family members who visit and beam was just very confused and then all of a sudden, I suddenly remembered the scene where we extend our numbers and if saying my name, I I still. He remembers that when he had given the deposit to the landlord he had given him his full name and his last name as bish for karma, which in nepal is associated with a lower asked and then being started to confront his landlord. I told him that I know why you are denying, I know,

the reason why you are denying the room to be, but even before being himself said the word cast non animal dawn, doing their way down daunting go way, is not your car, it's not your car seat I didn't even say a single word about my past- the land and said: oh, no, no, it's not because of your cast even though beam hadn't mentioned cast at all that kind of tell yeah exactly to beam. It became obvious that actually, it was because of his cast when that incident happened to me, I was kind of all, my goodness I thought I lifted back in about, but again it came to the. U with again it happening with the people I felt like you know. I was like saturn that incident shattered my self dignity self respect I felt like humiliated, so definitely that incident had the heart me from

we didn't. Actually. He said he just was in such shock because he had never expected to experience any of this kind of caspase discrimination in the united states. I mean it's one of the reasons why he left nepal. right so suddenly he's finding that this vestige of his former life that he was very happy to leave behind, has actually followed him to california and reared it's head and a pretty ugly way. According to him, So what's the response to this growing awareness of caste discrimination, as people like beam are telling The stories he told you so peoples are to say that there need to be more protections made explicit for people who are experiencing cast base discrimination. So we start to see. Universities Incorporate cast based information into their anti discrimination statutes. Companies follow suit earlier this We saw seattle become the first you a city to ban caste based discrimination, and then, in february this year the california estates

are, you sure, will hob, who represents a large constituency of south asians, introduced a bill to add costs based discrimination to the states antidiscrimination statutes. So what ends up happening treatise bill? Well, You might think that an anti discrimination bill would not be very controversial and a place like california, which is generally a pretty progressive state, but it actually ends up meeting with a lot of resistance, and it sets off this huge, incredibly intense battle. We'll the it back. Imagine if passed tech choices didn't hold you back. If knows, go, I t vendor told you know if he knew that

The harness complexity not be overcome by it. What would you do if you could see what's possible at red, hot dot, com, slash options, redheads, objective experts, flexible technologies and dedicated partners? provide the options you need today to go wherever tomorrow leaves no matter the clock, environment, up or vendor visit red, hot dot com, slash options to keep your options open hi. This is sidney heartburn. I help make the daily one night. It's ten p m. My colleagues were here. The next phase episode are looking for a speech. This piece of tape, that they really need to make the episode saying they tracked down. university library and that library happens be close to my house. So I happen to a car I had across town, get to the library there about clothes. I'm copying the tape uploading into my computer. nay it off to my colleagues working on the episode it makes it

to the show the next day. It really helps make it shine. The whole affair is a success, and I'm too I this because I dont think people realise that that level of teamwork and dedication goes into every episode, that you, here of the daily, that sort of collaboration takes people, they takes resources, it take support from subscribers. So that's why I'm asking you to subscribe to the new york times, so we can keep bring me the daily every day to any. Why does this bill arouse? resistance to ends up being most opposed to it, so that people who have been most vocal in their opposition to this bill have been people were then south asian diaspora in the united states, so they have been very very active and going to local city council meetings to the state capital to protest against the bill, and they have been wrong.

The angry we strongly oppose as before the vote. That is not a single case of past in american history. Why you making law? Nor do they lay out a few arguments. We have never witnessed in the existence of caste sentiments level, discrimination among the vibrant community members. They say that cast based discrimination, really exists in the united states may no discrimination is covered by existing laws. or maybe it happens here or there, but it's really not that big of a problem and certainly not big enough to justify a bill. They also say that a lot of people came here from south asia too, erika in order to start a new life and leave behind these ancient systems of course I had no knowledge of my own cost and I don't see the point in introducing it as a belt and by passing this law that it will only bring cast.

I can, in the conversation, in a way that will impose an identity on them that they dont actively practice. We are looking to heal and I dont hundreds and how the introduction of a caste system would help and healing that's what I'm sure. I understand that some other people opposed to this law, basically saying it will force cast on them in a way that cast doesn't exist. For them. It will make it more important in their lives than they want it to be, which is pretty fascinating great as soon as you use. The word cost you one thousand california, and they will say god's word is linked to induce. and one of the arguments that you share the most is that this law banning caste discrimination will actually lead to more discrimination

This is purely injustice, but indian americans, and particularly in those hindus, particularly against hindus. My kids went to school right down the shit. I've lived in this europe of twenty five years. I've never felt more discriminated in this country, then right now. What's the thinking there, while the people who make this argument say that because cast give you the average american, its associated with indians and hindus in particular, so that this law will actually end up targeting a very specific group of people, so, unlike broad categories like gender or race or- sexual orientation which affect many different people. This bill actually only really affects a small subset of people and that it will make a news in particular especially vulnerable to accusations of discrimination,

so any when, for example, hindus opposed to the still speak out against it and make the argument you just made. What specific situations are they worry about what I spoke to one percent, sheriff who is hindu and teachers at a university in california, and he said that, for example, he serves on his universities, tenure committee and that committee really decides whether or not a person should be did tenure and its oftentimes a very contentious decision, and he said that he's nervous now that, because of this bill, he will have a target on his back that if He participates in a decision not to grant someone tenure that that person could potentially go back to him and accuse him of cost discrimination.

And he would be more open to accusations of discrimination than the rest of his colleagues because he is hindu. So he really doesn't want to see this law passed because he feels like it will make his job really hard and he won't be able to participate in these types of activities that, as a professor one, is expected often to do so big argument being made here. It sounds like that in a litigious society, a new law that creates a new category of Nation and protection against it is now, without some real world potential implications and costs right. These people say that they don't engage in caste discrimination, but that in their everyday

citizens everything from hiring and firing too, who they bring on his tenants that this will introduce a new level of legal peril and fear and make them worry that they might be open to being sued when there is actually nothing going on. On the other hand, I wonder if it feels like some of these arguments from opponents are actually being made in good. Their enemies for him in these arguments, do make sense on their face right. No one wants to be open to a lawsuit that they won't open to before, but this whole list of arguments by those opposed to the law feels familiar in the context of american history make sure what to think of an anti discrimination law they did arouse similar arguments from people who felt that the problem was being overstayed is right, it was sporadic it's not systematic or worried it open them to law, suits or target.

Them as a source of discrimination. Surely there were men who didn't like when laws started to protect women against debased discrimination, so is it possible that what's happening here, is that I do think that many opponents of the bill are making these arguments in good faith and that they really are worried about being targeted and that this law might be misused against some, but the supporters of the bill say that in their view, this concern is really outweighed by the stories. People are sharing about, what's happened to them and they suggest that just because some south asians. Don't experience cost based discrimination, nor don't see it in their own social circles doesn't mean that it's not happening or that it won't happen in the future. But of course one side is poised to win this debate, governor newsome, a Democrat, is expected to sign this bill

until more members of his party past it and the conflict that you have just laid out here suggests that enforcing it once it becomes law is gonna, be kind of tricky brain. Yes, it will definitely the challenge I mean once this becomes law and losses, are filed. The we're gonna start. Seeing me in who really don't have much experience or knowledge about the caste system, which is hugely complex? They the very nuanced. It's been around for thousands of years and intersects with cultures and religions that they're gonna have to start adjudicating on this issue: but this is also how our legal system works. You pass on

and case law is built and precedents slowly are formed, and I think that, ultimately, what people who support the bill would say is that the hope is. We can create a place for people like beam, who have experienced this type of cost basis, crimination to be able to really feel comfortable coming forward and seeking justice. And that, ultimately, they will have the protection that they were hoping to have when they came here in the first place. Wavy. Thank you very much Thank you. So much michael hm would write back hears what else you need today on Sunday night after a hundred and forty sixteen strike that crippled hollywood, the you

In representing more than eleven thousand tv and film writers said it had reached a tentative deal with entertainment companies that, if approved, would bring its members back to work. Exact details were unclear, but the times reports that the deal liver much of what the writers had demanded, including higher royalty payments for streaming content and guarantees that artificial intelligence won't encroach on writers, credits and compensation and the? U s. Government is on track to shut down in less than a week. Unless, how speaker Kevin Mccarthy can meet the demands of a small group of far right lawmakers who have called for deep cuts to annual spending because republican

hold such a slim majority in the house, and because house Democrats refused to support the republican spending bells. The far right lawmakers have the power to cripple entire federal government. They have already blocked several attempts to extend government funding by just a few months to avoid a shut down. Now we want to do is have responsible government. You can't keep spending seven trillion dollars when you're only taken in five trillion that just doesn't work and it's completely dysfunctional. In an interview with cnn on sunday, one of those far right, Republicans representative tim burchett of tennessee defended his approach. That's why? Folks, like me- and you know we're sticking to our guns and all of a sudden we're the bad guys, because we want to balance our budget without a compromise. The government will begin to shut down shortly after midnight on october. First,

to these episode was produced by asked the charter vainly and still attempt with her. From diana win. Enchanted live. It was edited by patricia willards with help from mark george, subject by soothingly, contains regional measures at by damn power Miriam Lozano end, roomy, misto and was engineered by Chris. Would our theme? Music is I just wondered and the land of orderly special thanks. Are you sure cod? the That's it for the daily I'm likeable see you tomorrow at all

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