Trying to grab the glacier reason. One not are you would have done that you know sometimes less is more like when you drive less and save with the usa. A annual mileage discount usa get a quote today: the americans and maybe less so christians, I would say, are naive about the nature of evil, they think. Ok, you live in these countries. You ve got this crazy dictator and he's banging the table, and you have to have his picture is wall and maybe relating line for food, and sometimes people get arrested needlessly ways you gotta keep your mouth shut, then do your job you're gonna before and it's going to suck, but that's that it's like that is utopia compared to the reality in

these countries are now it's time for another interview, the Babylon bee podcast, welcome to the Babylon bee interview show I'm sam a staff writer, a lowly staff, writer and occasional podcast host. I have here with me. Travis Travis has been a staff writer forever he's done. A lot of copy he's, also creative designer and host of one of our most famous and well loved segments, Travis's game corner. That's it! That's me, and we have here with us a guest who we're very excited about michael malice. Is the author of multiple books and he's been very generous to us to be with his time over the years. This is probably appearance, number, four or five think so. Yeah he's written the new right he's written dear reader, which we'll get into later and an unauthorized autobiography of Kim Jong IL, and the book will be camping out on

Today the white pill, among others, anarchist handbook, Michael malice, thank you for joining us. I am delighted to be here. Then you, students really cool those really professional. Well, now you ruined it by calling it out he's always undermining you. That's true. We got your number too. That's my number that's all I know is close to the number that it's it's just two to three got away: picking so subversive. It's like your satirist almost sword, to get in deep we're the ones who are subversive, does it really write the book? The white pill guess the first question. People always ask, is, what's the white pill now I cranked through the book, and then I like rewind for the last chapter and just re listened again because it it nearly brought me to tears in your own words, go ahead and spoil it. What's the white pill,

yeah! Well, you are spoiling the whole book because it was the order important like well, it's what he put it at the end. Hey, hey, don't speak! For me, sorry. What did I just say? Yes, orders! I do understand it would, of course the order is important. I don't understand you may want to question you the book, a random psychiatric hamburg, which is a of essays and the book bills to appoint, but when the real as I wrote the white pearl and for people to understand you know internet lingo, unlike us, hip boomers, the concept of the white pill is oppositional to the concept of the blackmail. The black pill, which is, I think, very pervasive, needlessly so especially internet circles and right of center, goals. Is the idea that the west or and or america has done for that matter? What trends that are in place, they're, irrevocable and or the enemy class? However, you choose to define. It is too powerful, too ingrained too in control to ever

sure. Maybe you could eke out little victories here and there, but it's a lost cause. Ah I think, especially as christians. I I think that mentality is downright almost blasphemous. The idea that there's no hope on this earth that evil shall prevail. Inevitably it is- and it's certainly nothing to my mindset but

why I wrote this book? Is I don't believe in this kind of pollyanna everything's going to be great, a sense of optimism. That's absurd! Bad things happen all the time en masse. Just atrocities in our lifetimes. You know even right now on this earth is in true evil being done to innocent people, but the idea that hope is a delusion or is just the mentality as opposed to. There are concrete historical, relevant reasons that occurred in our lifetime that demonstrate the almost what in retrospect seemed effortless victory peacefully relatively little very little loss of blood.

Over. Ah, what Reagan correctly called an evil empire, an a nation just demonic in it's ideology, whether you want to call it literally or figuratively. That is an academic debate, the soviet union of seeking specifically and the fact that this is something both the victory is not talked about, even though this is eighty nine through ninety one. This isn't that long ago. This is, you know ever get like cable already, this is you know this. Isn't the world war one and world were too, but the fact that people also to discuss just how useful it was. So you know one. The points I always make on different shows is americans and maybe less so question I would say, are needed about the nature of evil. They think. Ok, you live in these countries. You ve got this crazy dictator knees banging the table, and you have to have this picture and his wife, all and maybe relating line for food, and sometimes people get arrested needlessly. But if you gotta keep your mouth shut, and

Do your job you're going to be poor and it's going to suck, but that's that it's like that is utopia compared to the reality in these countries where, by design everything is meant to turn parents against their children turn, husbands against wives to live in a nation where you have to be suspicious every single one of your neighbours, because they will be spy are you- and you know that you're not this, isn't like some rumour this. is known that this is the situation, then you are told since birth. that you're never getting out of here

this is as it were, is gonna get and you know you have to wonder who you're going to contradict or criticise, because if that person has some a modicum of power over you, which they almost certainly will, how will they affect retribution? And if they can't get retribution on you? Well, you ve got kids, you ve got relatives, you ve got friends, they there just as much targets as you in a nation where individual liberty means of see nothing. So I think it behooves people to a appreciate what form evil takes on this earth and the fact that Not only is it defeated bull that is so defeat of all that it's now become largely forgotten and, and that is crazy to me as someone who's bored, the soviet union. The fact the story of the soviet union is almost like a joke and we're talking about millions of people killed. Millions of people uprooted for their from their ancestral lands to kind of break any sense of continuity

tradition- and you know it a nation upon nation, where any small modicum of faith is grounds for felony and grounds to fire. You from your job and take your children away from you. So I got all the receipts and let me assure you both, as I'm sure you realize this was not an easy road ho. So the book is relentless. Yes, that's the perfect word for it. It's it's harrowing and I guess I did spoil it by sta say in the end when I showed it to my dad has been a history professor for thirty five years he has floored by the presentation. Oh what you meant by brother presentation as in the the sheer restraint of just one thing after another: oh yeah, like you, don't indulge in diatribes, you don't indulge it it's just it's an one, brutal fact after another and again for the whole, most of the

look again spoiler learn the soviet union does collapse by the end, but for most of the book you just you can't pull your eyes away, but your carried one by the momentum and then at the end, the white pearl does hit you in the gut yeah, like it's a pretty hard pill to swallow

I did it while I was funny cause and viva frei it enough. You know him. Maybe he's been a guest he's a podcaster. He had just tweeted out that the longer he said, I'm two thirds of the way through where's this white pill. So far is just the jacket jet black supplies, a tory that staring me up and I'm like well yeah and part of the point is and again this is. This happened this business of game of thrones scenario. The fact is: victory happened over decades of pure relentless evil. That's something I really like about the book is that it's really showing you why you need that pill essentially, and then do you have to get a prescription from a doctor to get the windmill? I got a guy,

So let me camp out on the tone for a second, because again, the book is incredible: it should be required reading nationwide worldwide. It's so different from someone who knows you from your twitter persona for sure where restraint is not the first word that comes to mind. I mean the book you could literally assigned at any school your twitter persona. There were at least two profanities on it that I could find. Yes, what's the divergence, there. What's your authority persona and then what's your trolling persona, I don't like that were persona, but a bit I ever get what you're getting at. I saw there are things that it's not good for you to know, and I remember I was watching a video on youtube of north korean refugees. and they were in having american barbecue and to me like, beauty on. This earth is someone who comes from a country where they had been starving and other gorging themselves, and you want to be like

please just I want you throwing up and eating more just like I want you to not ever have to experience hunger again right and the thing when you talk to these refugees and and a lotta times you talk to people survived atrocities they're not histrionic about it. It's the matter of fact this, and that makes it to me much more disturbing if someone like, if I have friends who are in like recovering a and the Tell you these anecdotes of things they ve experienced and you just wanted, but you don't know how to react, because it so oh emotional, but though the the content is what's emotional, not their response. So the north korean refugee was too came about how, when someone is about to starve to death, the flies are the first to know, and you can look at some of the flies land near their mouth could end, and he just this kind of like how can you get me a coke and you watch this and you're like. I want to tell myself and it's it's it's again like demonic, that you know have this information like you,

not a scientist or someone who watched this happen more than once, because you've established a pattern, and so it was important for me to not be like when you're talking about children being assaulted in the different types of assault. When you're talking about there's this one part which first saw I was crying writing a lot of this book, because my career in the past was being a coauthor and when I did that it's kind of like what I tried to do as best, I could is step into the protagonist shoes and try to experience what it's like to be that person and then convey that in text. So it's kind of like a method, actor right, so I'm like alright. I tried to empathize and sympathize with these regular, even mediocre people. Many cases nobody's, and and what that was like for them and also knowing this is what my family experienced really does a number of you, because it's not like they sing on talked about this there

we argue they'll talk about some movie, you know the silver is to remove and obviously that there are a lot older. He things are much worse than the thirties before my parents were born, but I thought it was important how, when you're thinking about things that in western culture are unspeakable, you don't need. me. As the author to be like mad, these guys are crazy. How then I'll just one specific example which every time I think that this number me so in the, u S, s r, being married to an enemy of the people, was a felony right. So you get arrested now your wife's going to get arrested, what she going to plead not guilty, she's she was married so either. I think that the logic is she should have been on to you and she should have reported you, because I would have to be vigilant friend me said the people whatever it is an odyssey just

termed a strategy. It's a bad idea to leave someone out of jail if they're arresting the husband, because that person might be counterproductive right. So you want it so overnight. The kids in orphan overnight now, what's the kid going to do? Well, you don't want to take in this kid whose parents are enemies of the people, because why are you so interested in what this kid is doing? You know we have the government take care of that kid. This isn't your this now your supper suspicion and there was a specific story when someone in moscow try to taken when these kids and they went ass for advice for some prominent in a governess social and there like what it? What I do there like look at socks, but you gotta put her on the street and it was hand, wringing in the kremlin about What we can do, but all these kids were killing themselves now, and it wasn't like stop. It's like this makes us look really bad. So again, when you talk about how the western eve about the nature of evil things like this, if we sat down

and we thought about ways to be cruel to people. We could think of some like movies, like sleep deprivation, splash of water in his face fingernails but stuff like this, where, like you, the consequence, is the kids logically committing suicide, because they have no hope in the future and that it's not like that point relates kay with little regroup. We took a long term it just like, but now we go put a band aid on this problem, this something that you know the opening chapters, iran who had fled this to what became soviet union testify in front of congress being like you, it's impossible to explain to a free people what it's like to live in, walter Natasha. You will never be able to wrap your head around it. I can't wrap my head around it. I mean the book is the best I can to explain, but I think it's very important for those of us, which I think is probably everyone listening this who are concerned about the dangers of totalitarianism run a muck about or by definition it's gonna run amok to know what that actually looks like

practice because it so much worse, then, whatever dopey movie, you think you know you were such a barn cohen in addressing the dictator and he's got a limousine. It is that that whatever and you you brought up and ran in that brings to mind the when she testified before congress and the congressmen said does any a smile and rush anymore, dismissive of the high so even back, then we were kind of covering up four things, but as I, why are we doing here for russia at that time. I don't I don't want. It was even a pr idling and it was this republican by they successfully. One small rushed anyone that they moved first chapter: it's just people there's this belief that Three things the same that like they have. We have our ways: they have their ways and when push comes to shove, we're all human beings, then every sentence, I just said is true and we are all human beings but to say that every system is roughly analogous or

eat up veto. They have their difficulties. We have. Ours is just like that. So reductionist, they completely misses the forest for the treaties, because it so antithetical to human life into human, thriving and again, because we live in america, gotten that I'll say Iran's that is many times, god bless america and she mean romanian literally, but I mean the highest possible its eye, the media also does a great job of hiding how evil evil could be. For several reasons, one is Karen doesn't like to get upset and karen is a big drives politics.

america to a large extent right. So you you, you can be disturbing in the news, but if it's too much people tune away, so you lose your viewers, but also one of the things that was very disturbing for me to discussing, I'm sure saw the receipts is for decades how many western apologists there were making excuses for a genocide concentration camps trials where people were admitting to things that were literally impossible. I went to this hotel even the hotel. The patent existed at the time. Things like that and under their brat saying, like you know, what good would freeing all these people do, those theatre dries or american novelist he's like young you how that help us so as bad as people tend to think things are now with discourse in america. There's this kind of boomer conservative idea that things got bad twenty years ago. It's like you are so as a conservative

it is your job to study history and apply the lessons of history today that is conservatism at its best. So it is your job to know. If you think, like twenty years ago, was fine, look at them. Thirties. Look at the twenties. Look at you know when people are being starved for political reasons and up in sinclair who still read in high school today says I don't think it was five millions, probably one, but look at it. This way they solve the problem of them in forever, which they didn't like you're, just hand waving away starving a million people were doing that raven. Do that today with weaker muslim somebody, china and its, but its but hold. I'm gonna drop you just because the key here your logic there. There there are very few people who are saying we should be more like china in the new york times is saying, but they were saying we need to be more like the soviet union and we need to work closely with Stalin, as that is the big headlines

I can see the word at the mind flower bed. You know that I learned so there's an urgency to your endeavour and, of course, again your tools in terms of tearing down the corporate press. Your tools, mate may make was spanish, suburban nights uncomfortable, but the earth she comes from. We were just talking with our producer dan and he was saying: if there's one thing you need but Michael malice is that he's authentic and he really wants to help people. That's that's a commendation to you. Well, that's real incidents. Okay with the Keith olbermann agree with that Spent her, then he felt over knows who I am gyrations pretty regularly Keith I mean I think I can speak to keep up. when quite literally, had a traumatic head injury. He was a kid by train, decided Wikipedia. Yeah he's not well so so he wouldn't degree I utterly now you I don't think you can agree, doesn't have the capacity

what's going on in his head, although its, I think it's kind of like scrambled eggs, didn't make it, as someone who is a sword enemy of the corporate press? Did it bless your soul when you saw the new times got their little verified twitter thing taken away. I know I'm not a lot to say this here, but that is my pornography like when you have these organizations have their status revoked. That is something that appeals to my period interests and I I am reminded the words of saint augustine, where he said god save me from temptation just not yet gross but relevant, guess the concert The tell tell you seen there. There was one line in the book. I'll reveal it here where I was on the fence about including

and I'm glad I did and I'll I'll I'll it. It's it's one of my favorite scenes not because I enjoy it because everytime, I think about it. I I've lost a lot of tears over the scene and, as the scene about stanislav cosier, stanislav cosier was a big shot in ukraine, which was part of the soviet union of time. He was instrumental in covering up the starvation of the. Alex in the holder more millions of people, but he knew too much so in january believe or early, and I think thirty eight he becomes like number two in the soviet union or just very high a position to bring it to moscow in may he's arrested and they are tortured him to break him right now we don't know what they tortured him specifically, but we know some of the torture the the most common was on the called the conveyor belt because they kept you up or how weak and some one would interview, yellow you for four hours. When he's got tired. The next guy comes in and at a certain point, you're just you. You have to keep her story. Straw

if there's any contradiction, they're going to tell you that your liar, he didn't break, didn't know they would stand people in a liquor basement full of cold water for hours. They break they would yank. They hang you with your elbows tied up behind you too can dislocated shoulders. We'd know if they did that, but do whatever they did to him a break. So he's a good soviet, strong soviet and the question in these. You know that I had is: they had a trump card now? Did they not want to play it or did they were just out of desperation and the thing in these scenarios, which americans and appreciate is a lot of time interrogators they knew the guy was innocent. Just needed him to sign the confession. It's like dude you're, wasting your time like you can't win, and it's frustrating for me. interrogated because I got a job here. Do your buddy you're going to sign this paper, whether you like it or not, so no matter what they did, didn't they didn't break and that girl

so they bring in his teenage daughter and they re print in front him and he broke it and he lived her because she killed herself shortly thereafter and then they killed him, and then I had the line. I said I don't think this is through the new york times is thinking of when they ran that a bad about how women had better sex under socialism, but when you are an organisation that has your hands dirty in telling your readers explicitly that millions of people aren't being starved to death in ukraine as they did in the early thirties? I would think if you had a modicum just a tiny, tiny bit of humanity. You'd be more careful about running pieces like this. Given your history and given what was done to people in these nations, so the fact that I left a linen and I'm glad I did because

I think, no matter how evil people think the corporate press is, they are still you've got like Dante, they're, seldom several more hell so you're, making a compelling case, obviously for socialism We just gotta. Do it right here if we get it right this time, indeed, their eyes were backward, that's the problem, but still litter guys but ITALY, so we didn't want to come over here, but in post school we talk talk about how mccarthyism was bad. the one time leftist were cancelled its regard as the second worst thing that happened: america, sincere other slavery, so wish, which europe I'm mccarthyism? Is it like

extreme that went too far, or was it all bad or so I address that a bit in the book. First of all, the terms of misnomer, because the house, un american activities committee, was in the house, Mccarthy was center, he proceeded mccarthy and what you had in this country was a large organization of people who weren't merely ideological communists. They weren't, like you, know I think, codices good they were secretly getting money and kissing the ring of Stalin. Let this isn't you know trudeau. This was stolen, who again millions of deaths on his hands childer, being driven to suicide torture, no assemblage of any kind of human rights whatsoever and their goal explicitly was the violent overthrow of the united states

government in inevitably millions of people would be have been killed as a consequence and delivering us over to a foreign nation, specifically the? U s, s r, so there are certain things within mccarthyism that were insane. I just read: jack Welch's or john walsh. Whoever's name is the guy who started the drug war society. He had. A book basically saying that called the politician or manuscript that there were forced them to publish saying that eisenhower was a communist asian. I don't think that's true at all, but the point is stolen: got the nukes because of infiltration, so there was this. I have this line the book. I forget the playwright. Her name was because they called it a witch hunt there weren't, which is it salem. These communist were real. We You know there are high up. They were their massive consequences, so this is completely disingenuous to kind of equivocate between those two concepts.

and you did you see Indiana jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull. I've never seen in Indiana jones movies that sad or godfather. So in that movie he fights communists. Your thoughts, I endorsed so the book just rewinding a hair and zooming out it starts before the bolshevik level. nineteen seventeen and it goes all the way through the soviet union's collapse in eighty nine. An early in the book of figure whose popular around here g k Chesterton Kay Chesterton gets a shot out. You mention the chesterton fence, with the idea being. If you walk into a field and there's a fence there, you, I understand why the fence was there. Even if the reasons for being there are not currently apparent, you should be very. You should move. Drily win removing it go ahead with how that applies to, especially in the hetty, early days of communism. They were tearing everything down and removing everything should they have taken taken fence more seriously? Yes, so I think Chesterton fence

without exaggeration, the best defence of conservatism. There is because his point- is there's an enormous asymmetry that if something was built, people on buildings for no reason- and he also that also speaks to epistemological humility. Being you know how smart you think you are and just because you see this fancy, you think this is stupid. The impasse of idiots must the pudding reason not to know someone put it there for some reason that person was probably not an idiot, because this is their land and they have local knowledge, even though they might not be some great genius of the ages and really you make sure why it's here, because if, if you, if you don't let the coin, if it's up leave it up cause. It certainly had a reason at one point right, so that kind of idea of conservatism that if push comes to shove, stick with. What's worked in the past, that is a great strategy or a just in general, because their eye, this kind of progressive idea that everyone, the past,

it was more on, is completely historical and it's a really convenient way to make yourself looks more like I'll. Ever was dumb, never once more such roma, its absurdity and almost downright have seen because we're here because of our ancestors, and they did something right cause we're here right and so what europe they can do. Is you know when nineteen seventeen happened, the bolshevik revolution, even though, in contemporary times they use ussr, is regarded as a backward rob people are waiting in line for bread, just almost barbaric system. It was nineteen seventeen regarded cipher because it's the future, like you can scientifically manage society was called scientific socialism, and you know you, we have this kind of western bourgeois. You know shop, keep the butcher and the little town. You know they had such disdain for that these little communities, but we're gonna build this. Amid this unity,

steel and electricity factories, vision of the future and their world view was the opposite of Chesterton, which was since the bourgeoisie where the enemy and what it so, if they did it whatever they did, was probably wrong. So free love, what marriage gonna, throw them? the window. Let's have kids raised community, it's because that's not equal, so No one's going to have good moms someone's going to bad moms. Let's have professionals race, everyone's mom, everyone's kids, together they're like who knows. Maybe at some point he will be. things were, will be just brains and globes right and they were explicitly trying to create a new type of man. This was their vision, we're gonna remake the nature of when beings themselves now as religious people. This is more than a little demonic, obviously an end. It's just

disturbing to read what happens, because what happens is when you have people who are made of flesh and blood, and bones guard against, meat, grinder, the meek, grinders gonna win, and it's not like you're gonna we're not gambie right. They had this plasticine version vision of what human nature is. Every judge just teach people the right thing and if you- just structures side the right way, everyone's gonna equal everyone's gonna be the same again. Gonna, be this kind of utopian? It was very revelation because the ideas you know those it's gonna. To wither way. Are we it Heaven on earth? It was very inspired in many ways by the court. And vision of the times, and this kind of esa told you kind of situation. But when you look at that applied the idea that justice something has been done for thousands of years, that is sure Be reason to stop doing. It is saying cry: this is just being mild sure now. Do you think that there tops

anchors are leaders sore scientists, still trying to create the perfect gambie man? Don't you think that's the way I mean, I think enormous part of american educational system, which was inspired by prussia bismarck. is the idea of if we don t Men not to rape, that's that's one with their like. If you just sit down and and at oh I do but I mean you laugh, but I mean that is the way. instead of like that, whereas everyone in this in this building, we are obviously find violation like that to be beyond obscene and and are extremely opposed to it, but we also It absurd that someone who become we'll doing this. If you just sit down and have the right. Professor, like he's, give like this was, I confess that something that christian struggle with her they go well. If this person just heard the message in this way, though,

save what does not work that I thought the whole point was the holy spirit has to do with corroded work. You know it's not the message that you need to have that moment with with the holy spirit, you know defaming the holy spirit, spun the few things that could Don't forget your trouble. We ve got no, that's ok, so you're right, I mean the five. The five day work week failed experiment and then what wasn't if they work week, so they had my calendar five day calendar year and then other ways in which they were trying to mould and plastic man, the main one that we want to continue hearing you thought about was the family. So what is it about christianity, what is it about the family that was backwards that had to be raised to the ground, then rebuilt right cause. The family is for everyone, including myself, the basis for a healthy society What I disagree with with conservatives is this view of the new. we're family which is mom than the kids. I think much more.

I'm tested way in, and I know not a contradiction, but nuclear implies. The former is the extended family because a lot of times what, if dad's a drunk? What, if moms you know yet self absorbed. When you have aunts and uncles and grandparents around, that's it that's a form of insurance, the and the more love and support children have to be yet cousins nephews to play with. I think the healthier societies become so this kind of suburban nuclear family. All, I think, is overrated in many ways as compared to the extended family, especially I come from europe. It's much more of a thing. They're, like my parents worked, my grandma was at home and I think that's a lot healthier and daycare more, the like the the idea of it takes a village to raise, I wouldn't say, village, but but certainly an extended family cause villages where things get. I don't like that sure yeah, that's always yeah, but for them that's very bourgeois. That's old school right,

and any time you have anything private as opposed the public good any time you have preferences for these people as opposed to them. We want equality and it's not fair, or if you have to parents and are raised well, we see this now with education system. Here it's like. Oh, you have a sum. It's not fair that your! and get the college is. You have to parents, and you had food on the table and somebody the compete with you with a single bomb and your struggling for food, how you, except to compete so. I agree that that's unfair and I want those kids. They have opportunities who, at one single mom and its had a rough and that something that we should be concerned about no question, but the idea that well Let's bring everyone to that level, mom is or tab. No mom do have communal. You know raising of children That is not only crazy. It just to me defies basic biology in psychology.

The most disturbing case where this was put into place was romania, and there is a chapter and I haven't revealed the cell reveal it for the first time here. The second to last chapters called die hard because it is a christmas story at the ceausescu's he took over romania when they first there, liberal, they criticized the soviets invading checks and sixty eight, but they wanted to raise the population of romania as much as possible, so kind. section was illegal. Abortion was illegal, they lower the marriage range, I think, to be divorced illegal and every month every woman had to go. The gynaecological is to make sure that she, whether she was pregnant or not, and so on and so forth, if you god forbid, this is the worst thing given any one. Now you have a miscarriage were still birth, you are ready. The cops came to your door to make sure this wasn't an abortion, this woman who suffer this trauma and food and electricity or problem by the way site

this remaining winters in carrying a kid. The term you know is not always going to be as easy as it is here, not that it's always easier for motley, and you had to answer the authorities was going on there a lot of times, women just kept having kids and they're encouraged to they did have food. so they seldom where the government will raise your kids they handed kids over to orphanages. They weren't orphans, but the parents could raise them and they were just chain to their crib lying in their own urine. There was a british journalist who came, and he goes the thing that most disturb me were two things: the smell the smell of urine but also the fact that there is so silent because these kids stopped crying for someone to pick them up does no one to pick them up. And they grew up, malnourished, mentally handicapped, so on and so forth. so again when we speak of the nature of evil. This is something that if we sat down first of all out of it,

we'll be able think of waste the torture kids because it would just be like her. I can't get get guide. This is too much for me, but then not only was this thought of but implemented in practice for decades in a country not that far away, not that long ago but I'm going to spoil this one, they put them up against the one shot them on christmas in it was it. I just love that story No I've got a friend a church, charming story, of got ending and that's the tragic it's not the kids, yes, not the kids, yes, not kids, but those kids. You know you. That's the other thing with you know: if you think people are plastic, they're Gumby, there's a window for kids to bond with their pets. What's it develop language and and develop these skills? If you dont developed as a kid you screwed for life and sick, this gives you can be raised by of their kids, russia raised by wolves and then have a later, you don't not develop language. You dont about you know it's! Your just lost business is needed think beyond today. That's why,

he p, uses data driven insights to design hr solutions to help your business by more success tomorrow, hr time, talent, benefits table. Always designing for April. So while I mean so first off, I think we have established the state is not a good mom and dad the state is not a good god, no, sir, and I mean I'm a moment ago we were given in, like it did new testing. Jesus says the one unforgivable sin in his context, it was the pharisees attributing the works of him to Satan, but other than that Jesus forgives. You know everything. What is it about adherence to family and adherence to god for christians that made them such a ripe target for persecution. Well, this two things, First of all, they were a lot of priests were encouraged to denounce christ, or god, vanessa christian from the pulpit and fund the congregation, because this was a good sign to

with the congregation that, like there's, no hope for religion countries, he might as well play ball. So this was a thing they did a lot. They had priests right right papers to the writing. Let us, together whatever was to the newspapers to being like. I was such a fool to be religious. now I realize this is so much better. Eunuch marks very famously said that religions, the orbit of the people So there are virulently atheist because there are, the reasoning is religion? Teaches you to be oppressed but become your oppression. I that's not my perception village at all, but whatever, but the thing with christianity is, I think a large focus of christianity He is on the afterlife. Is that a guest in weighing we're like sure we might say for here on this earth. But if you stick to your faith and have faith in literally Hence it is going to work out the end, and you know that kind of cheesy footprints fits footprints poem, but there's no there's a truth to it in the christian mindset, but this problem for them.

because it's like then in a no. We need you looking up to us. We need you looking up to the state We need you working for the community. So all these you know bibles and when that's gotta go in the trash and you're a threat, because you know you're this kind of counts power centre. That's counter to what we are trying to do, and one of the great moments in the white pearl in history. as in nineteen, seventy nine when pope John Paul. The second wanted to go back to poland as pope, and he was the first pope from out of italy and, like centuries You know it's big, add to pick a pope from the far side. The iron curtain was like a huge deal, and his predecessor had wanted to come to poland to celebrating poland's five hundredth anniversary of being christian Democrat and he was told not to come, and britain have to old pope John Paul he's smart man tell em to pretend he's he's sick and pumped up almost beyond fine

and I'm reminder that little trump quote raises like you: I'm gonna come so he gets his pop, but two poland and he's giving these sermons praying with this land of poland and the people turned out allow the turnout and hundreds of thousands and, with such a great moment that was kind of catalyst revelling falling apart, because there looking around, and they must because they have to be kind of secretive about their faith it to be like wait a minute. We have the numbers, It's you know. I thought it was just me and, like my friends about there's a lot of us here and that really gave them a lot of hope to form solidarity, which is a let labour movement which was key to bringing down the regime in poland and then after poland, was a series of dominoes, so popular Paul second, really was the tramp of his time. Well, they lock him up. So the obviously the book has its its values,

and then its peaks and, of course its. It is in some ways just a march through Hell. It feels like yes, but then it's got. It's got hope, especially at the end, as one night. You know one of the soviet blocks after another starts to fall. I've got a friend at church, he's romanian. His parents got out right after eighty nine, it's wonderful and he said that the way they talk about it as they say it's like the end of a james bond movie when the child, just goose, got taken out any all so says that his parents have a lot of that soviet dark, humor where you know well, he he said that his parents say government officials, world the students not f, but also not c, b or a the dark humor. What are some like soviet ways that they would call? I give you exam, for example, that there is this one check job from czechoslovakia, where did there the the

president: the country's having problems with his lock and the locksmith keeps coming back trying to fix it. Then he goes. I can't believe conf. He can't fix what's wrong with the ghosts yet you're the locksmith, I'm a college professor, so A lot of times. People who were in power with positions were intelligent. Intelligence is a problem because your critical thinker, you know too much so we're gonna, make you a gender we're gonna humiliate. You were gonna, we'll send you some siberia to be a minor cause. We want to make an example of you, because now all the the professors it can be. Like. Oh okay, I saw a couple. My colleague said. That is one very classic example. I drove I don't have the verbiage joke exactly right, but the the point it's in the book. The point stands so that is yet the people in these systems at the top. This is another reason why I am hopeful. You can't look at john fishermen be like. I can't went against the sky to back up its around you. You can't look

Joe Biden, a fortress europe and be like this guy's unstoppable, like no one can win against him. That's not the case at all, and very often, and especially as the decades went on, the people at the top in these countries were that the filter wasn't accomplishment television screens, creativity, the motor was orthodoxy, the worst kind of orthodoxy, someone who will repeat the things there is that net flanders, joke, though there is a symptom of a sober flanders. Basically, job and he's praying to god like him near his house destroyed. It's the only house destroyed by the tornado. Everyone else houses, fine, he's, like god like I do. I dunno I tried to do all the stuff, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff, but in these countries they would say with a straight face. You know, you know this guy's, the enemy, the people The next year he's a hero, the next using the people. Again, if you have any kind of critical thought you realize this nonsense, but its useful. If you have.

critical thought her. If you could say these things with a straight face and those people get the promotions sky things, how the peter small here, the equivalent in india, your promoted to the level during competence corporation. This is this kind of thing, because If you suck and you're my team- and I can't fire you, let me get you a promotion, so I don't have to deal with you, though he had his there's that concept and there's a hey, the you're, a great employee, let's promote you enough until your adequate, yes you're right back to the level younger. So that's the thing these countries are not run by brilliant strategists. They are run by people who, in a free rational country would be breaking the male room and which would void thereby walls cause. It says for fifty seven eastland street, but the address for fifty seven easily avenue it's the same person there. This is to say what do I do. What we I imagine that person has the power of your children's, oh and imagine, trying to argue with him

That is not reasonable that your children we taken away, there's no one home and that's what's terrifying in these countries. It's not that. If someone's did did the cs, louis you assure you admire, you know, has that quotas I have the exact verbiage address, there be run over by someone is corrupt and immoral busybody because the moral busybody body like a he'll sleep with the if his conscience, because he thinks the right thing, the corrupt guides, given some key. Ass, you look the other way. It's fine and you know ideological. Evil is many ways worse than simple corruption if these cuts, freeze, the worst thing is like a guy in charge here, this is causing to run the cement factory and units. Fifty percent over and the buildings a shabby the who care you write that like, if the worst, then we're talking about things that are done for ideological reasons where, if you are someone who runs your mouth there in east germany, especially your kids, are, can be set

to a good, reliable political family and you will never be able to contact them again. That is so much worse than you know. Of my uncle, you know is, is the one who's in charge of this company and It's one of the sweet moments of hope at the end of the boat. When you say it's one of the lies of the evil that they are our omniscient an omnipotent. The evil is not partake. Emily, intelligent it can be intimidating, but it's not unbeatable that their doubts. Those mom, in the last chapter of release that gives the last chapter. So much emotion will thank you that that was the good. I'm glad to that effect. I try to let its important from at least as an author do something I hate, where your very encouraged in publishing to the last chapter be like your final thoughts, but it's kind of if my final thoughts are, are wrong and there can be much more nuanced and I might have had the wrong. Take that undermine the entire history and it's like example, is. If someone is like the best diagnostician on earth of cancer,

he could, despite cancer mile away, and it's like what I do what you peanut butter, it's like, but it under studies he's got his diagnosis can be wrong. Is a prescription could wrong that doesn't mean he's dying, this was incorrect, but that's what happens when you have these last chapters in person like I've, read books on what it's really good, and then the person's advice is just completely like basic mediocre, like thinking like I was with you and now I'm questioning whether the narratives correct, yes, poor some lavender oil on yeah right. I think I actually is a war that is again the war. To keep coming to mind is restrained. That's one of the things that so restrained about the book you don't at the end, pour in your purse no philosophy which is energy ism you let the reader leave with there take on how bad to tell a terrorism communism was. I dont think you

to be an anarchist to look at children being abused and be like this is obscene and unspeakable. So that's what's important. I think this is something that is essential. Rand. You known for the first chapters said that you have to understand. It is totally inhuman, so I think any human being who has any semblance of a soul or ethics reed's. What was done to people in these countries will walk away with being like this is something that needs to be fought against. Every five are being well. This is the opportunity to broaden the conversation now and dip a little bit into your earlier book of graphy, dear reader, I'd like Compare and contrast dear reader and the white pill for a moment CS louis, had this famous observation about nineteen. Eighty four animal farm. He said animal farms is all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. He said that potent phrase is more of a gut punch them. the whole of nineteen eighty four, so he

physically was saying, animal farm has has trend ended in a realism as agenda in its pure myth, and that's why it's got punch nineteen. Eighty four is bogged down in winston, smith in his you know very close vein so he just said it's not as got punchy. I wanted to ask you, dear reader and the white pill. What was what was the approach with creating each of them so on the back over the white pelts as once upon a time, so I very much wrote it as a myth. In this sense, If this is the, I mean it's historical and is true, but it does have that structure of good vs evil, and I do think that you know a lot of times in america. People use the word evil loosely or they're, not that doesn't exist, but it's just. the great something's are bad but lady. This is so that things can get so which worse is my point to me-

This was evil like this is just evil like it is an evil empire. When you're talking about the things you- and I just we all discussed during this episode- there's no much ambiguity in my mind. you can argue even for forcing people to work in factories. I don't know argue whether that's evil, but that's so much less bad or what we've been discussing. That is just like. Alright, it's like a lukewarm either. I just like it's a maybe like be degree but not like boiling skin care situation. Dear reader, is almost quite literally a myth, because kim Jong, IL who is there Jesus in their mythology he's this? The sun is a father and a mother. He He when he's born, there's a new star in the sky and he is: has these got a magical powers and it is kind of adjacent to reality, but not exactly reality, and that I beat it it's it's the history of north korea from hit from their prospects.

It is kind of given this a historical, but it's kind of like a shadow of reality, so there is a kind of mythological element to it most explicitly, but that answers your question does in here, is just another commendation and compliment if someone's teaching U s! History class! I believe the white pill should be adjacent to the class if someone's teaching a like world let class leave nineteen. Eighty four should be supplemented with the white pill. It's just it you do it! the job of running concurrently with what's going on in the ussr, to what's going on in the? U s, and that balance it's just elegant and it does read like myth, but it's not. I will I only flattered to hear you say that that was one of my goals was. I was at the blaze and they were talking about how Biden is a marxist and I'm like you, guys, have any idea of just like how bad it would be. If Biden, I don't think, VI

it's like a corporate hack like this disguise and we laugh, but he's not this ideologically driven now, maybe he's in the service of agencies like that and that's a different argument, but you can't look at the it'd, be like he really wants. You know the state to run every industry he's in the pocket of every of wall street. You know lingered it there's a big distinction between someone is a core, perhaps was on the take and someone who really is like. I don't care if we starve millions of people, we're going to have this kind of agenda and- and this was conservatism is great victory. This was reagan and thatcher who were like portrayed as forming at the mouth dogs who were gonna, get us into world war three sitting down and giving space for gorbachev to peacefully liberate half the world and I'm sitting there like. You can't expect in your time to tell a story: animal. This is your moments like you should know this. This is your history and why aren't you guy singing these praises, so it

really gave me some the sadistic sight of me It gave me a lot of pleasure to know that for a lot of hard core lefties who, despite is Margaret thatcher and there's lots no reason to hate her and that's fine, but that a lot of people are going to read her read this. and be like. Oh, she did some really great things at the have them realized kind of resurrect her little bit from the dustbin of his three, which is kind of receding too that's me, is such a great like finger in their face, because I think when someone is integral to doing so good, you kind of in some context after like ignored the bad things that they did and give credit where to do well put on the topic of dear reader, I think differences. The white pill is pretty direct. It's pretty in your face. Dear reader is a bit more oblique agenda, more subversive, because your relying on I mean, like dramatic irony, the reader knows.

Something that neither the author nor the authors purported readership nose like it's written as if its kim jong IL to his beloved people, he's telling about how he was there at all these pivot points in north korean or korean history. He would say: the reader, if you're, a regular. U S, person! You know that! he's just he's an unreliable narrator and that's where all the humor and the bite comes from and the white pill is just more direct. That's one difference I would share yet the last after dear reader, I can't get through their crying still because that's on the mass drops and when they are defending the concentration camps and things like this and it's just very hard having been there and the fact that every single, person who ice everquest saw is still there. I mean, like you, can't leave the country silicon wherever I work in the street are still there.

My guide is still there. No one can leave. I just was talking to young. The park was a refugee from north korea, and she said, even though they have illiteracy. Now, output of electric fencing see you this: u refugees can get out, so it's completely been locked Don't do that. If I didn't have that last chapter, because it's very hard for any author, it and insofar as X, succeeded I'll pat myself on the back to write about atrocities and things that are obscene in the nature of mura. In the face of morality, and have a be readable because our minds it like that cause your seeing that it has talked about with with the daughter getting assaulted our minds want to be. Like I don't I don't, I can't do this, I want you cause. You want to shut down causes like if I don't have to here with this emotion is happened thirty's. Why should I and at a certain point, it's like, while you have to because

in costs, yours long gone, are the daughter's long gone and the soviet union is gone. Evil has not vanished from the face of this earth and there are plenty of people who, if they had their druthers, would have this back overnight, but the point being they're not always going to get their way, and why don't? I get my way sometimes, and that to me is what hope is all about the idea that if evil people have the a very easy way for people, because when you're black build, you have to spread it because, as soon as there is some hope than your whole narratives defeated right, you're hypothesis, so are you an example? I tell people go if they had their way. You'd be disarmed like him. They that's where they want that you're. Not so, One example of this idea that, like a ever they want they're gonna get. No, that's not true. You have. Your thesis has been disproven. Now you you ve written these two. books about. Dino, north korea and the soviet union, we place. Would you rather live when bob?

Let's just go with right now and also the union has fallen by its though russia. I would much rather are you kidding yeah, that's a good, I'm not about at them. we wished when both of them were russia, verses, north korea right now. Now's russia. I only less obvious because you'd by reason, roommates with edward Snowden, without be such a bad thing, I don't know I don't I don't know. What is habits. Are I mean I'd rather be remitted literally anyone then in north korea sure, but yes to the correction is like during their worst period, so north korea now led soviet union post stolen. I think a post, and yet postal and other global Travis doing things waiting after stolen? I dont, I'm few by the question, because I think literally, everyone including the russians, have north literally everyone has the same answer, because it's not comparable because they after stolen thee-

authoritarianism receded heavily, they closed down the gulags. It was. There was more food. There was more access to information through some, his daughter in north korea. Today, if something happens, to you- three generations of your family are punished the line is class enemies have to be extremity three generations so the whole. Was rounded up and you don't know which one of you was the transgressor its alek you're? Not, hold about. You did this, so you don't have that in a crucial I mean you don't have that our certainly russian about how bad putin is it. never molly close to this end, The other thing is in north korea to this day, if I escape my family we'll be executed in front of my home town to give an example. So that's not a thing: what analogy: do I have to bring up to get you to choose north korea? Nuts germany, as a jew, that's pry, the one. Ok,

but I guess I'm not allowed to live in north korea cause I'm a yank devil. So it's most racist country on earth or debris dedicated to racial purity, explicitly not one drop of ink shall be spilled in the han river, as the great leader Kim Il Sung said to the point where, if with women escape to china and their often bought or forced into sexual slavery, if their repatriated their beaten or forced to miscarry, because they're not gonna, mix in blood with chinese blood. I was aware that that's horrifying yes, so again, it's it's it's to compare that two crucial have is, is it is incomparable apologize to khrushchev. He did some good things when was in high school, we had a south korean foreign exchange student that lived us in her family graciously invited us to come stay with them for like, lover a week after she returned home and we got to visit the dmz and we got to go down in the tunnel hunting. How is it across the border

north korea. What's that experience like? What's the air like? What's the atmosphere like, I tell you a funny story that happened to me at the north side of the dmz, so I'm from brooklyn. Originally, and a friend of mine to shell had a good definition, a hipster and she said hipsters someone who likes things that are cool, just cause, they're old, the good work and definition, so we're in the north side dmz with my guide, and there was a guy. Either? Who had? I can accordion camera? You know, but it just looked like an accorded cameras as functional camera, and I go to him. He oh you're, such a hipster and my guy goes what's a hipster. And I'm trying to do. I know what a hipster is. So I gave her that definition and and- and we took the photo That side is really cool and actually, when I was went to that room where they both share its, nor in south, were they meet this meeting rooms as a kind of national territory I had a shirt.

it said made in america and I'd carefully unbuttoned my outer shirt, some standing there with a there, and I had uncle sam socks and I had shoes with blue soles to stamp out the red of one either. So I had all this stuff going on in the background that they weren't oblivious to I think, as I like to work on several levels and then later there's I didn't realize at the time there's they were their slaves, but their paid. Well it if they live at the hotel, there's their tailors so and they in a sense, their slaves with their rich and status. So it's just a kind of weird situation like push comes to shove, like anyone would want their position like. Yes, you have to live in the hotel and long hours? But you have electricity, housing, food, you're, safe! It's this! It's weird kind of dichotomy, so I went there with the intention of getting a custom you know north korean suit made and their showing all these pictures of these western suits and I'm gonna know I want. sue, like the great leader document sung, like you know, these pictures with the collar and she's at all.

there and, like she got it, she got it in the, but in the The thing is in the north sea, the dmz and everywhere in korea. They always show their slow His career has one so always show korea as one unified country right, because their perspective is that korea is not to country the south is under foreign occupation, so this and the southern south korea gum is it would so they always re every much weaker. A point for the photos that the drawings to have, as of one country of korea, will shift to current events. we mentioned the terms the diamond. Are you mentioned trumps indictment, this happening right now. Yes, What are your thoughts on that in comparison with what happened in russia or north korea. Obviously we are not quite there yet or are we in favour of it resting president's can imprisoning them? my compromise products should be asking anarchists

I am also a big proponent, as you guys know, of national divorce, and I think this very much pushes us closer to that direction. I think that from my understanding, and I have not been observed that can match com, it's blowing, but my understanding is what he's? Let's assume for the sake of argument, lets the amend. The argument that he's guilty of thing has been accused of My understanding is what he's been accused of are not all are normally not felonies that their misdemeanours that also this happened a long time ago. In such a limitation, many cases has run out. So

It's my understanding that this is very clearly being dont you if this loan for this way, it's seems almost indisputable, that if this wasn't donald trump, this wouldn't befell me charges, and I think that is something that is both good and bad. I think it's good that there's this brinkmanship and I think More politicians should feel unsafe, but I think it also speaks to an enormous asymmetry in our culture war, because when he was president donald trump pardoned The credit governor of illinois rob lavish who was in jail we're trying to sell obama's senate seat, he pardon comical patrick. democrat long time Democrat who mayor of Detroit and when George w bush entered the white house in two thousand and one for thing he did was to make sure that any criminal charges against bill Clinton that were pending were dropped and we're not gonna pursue any.

Only for him. Even I clearly committed perjury, em and many other things, and people had gone to jail for perjury about sexual affairs under oath and the senate. Didn't wanna hear it when the house wrote those charges during impeachment. So as long as you have this, if you ask me, there's two teams, What team is chanting lock her up and the team is locking them up, which team do you want to be on which team is gonna win? They think is pretty obvious to me While I want to be on the right team, not the winning team. Well I dont know that you have a right team when it comes to politics meant well right, leaning, ok, napkin, I just realized that, as I said, right team, I was probably confusing. This is its intense stuff that will govern. I got a mortgage chateau because its head start, but I put on my order collar the weather overthrew the weather has really fun. I wish he was here to give us the weather

kyler no longer speaking. You knows that he did. He was intense stuff. So a lot of stuff wild starfleet wow, when, So I was no shift to another girl event. So, obviously, The nashville, the shooting in nashville, was tragic beyond all recognition as these measures sittings are without using any swear it's. How would you characterize the corporate media response? Honestly? It could have been a lot worse because I dope, there were some apologetics, but they were not as many as we'd seen in other situations Which is a very low bar, but I think that's the case. I think

you should my concern would be the apologetics that I think there's a lot of sweeping under the rug, which is the best you can hope from them. I think I think it. I think it's very interesting. that, as soon as there are all sorts of questions happening about the shooter and dangerous implications of that all of a sudden trumpets indicted. As I look over here- and you know, you could be alex put on your alex Jones day, foil hat about that. If you like, I I I I can't speak on that, but I also have heartened by the fact that

years ago. There would be a lot of hand wringing in republican circles about you, but we gotta do something, and there was zero movement among republicans to tighten gun laws or think that this somehow reflects on average citizens and their ability to protect themselves and their families. I think that that ship has sailed in right of centre circles and that to me is wonderful, I think, they're there's a gift on Wikipedia and people posted alla time, which shows how state by state it went from your inability to get a handgun too. Now it's like

ass he should carry. Many states shall issue and gun proliferation is to me the best answer, two gun control arguments that you can have because at a certain point you- and I can tell you to a blue in the face, but if there's too many guns out there there's nothing that can be done about it and god bless clytie Wilson and goes guns were now eighty three printing, a situation to make gun control literally impossible. Do you have a shall not be infringed tattoo I'd? I dont have any tattoos tramp stamp? Would you believe, We want to get one right now, like, oh, no, I I have. I but for tattoos I would get, but if I got for then I'm gonna get fifty within a week as a good good, Werner sedative, sean's wherefore, that's good hocker. Speaking of the ten question we are now going to throw to our subscriber portion of it if you are not a subscriber, become one Babylon b, dot com, slash plans, you get access to extra content, a forum where you can

gets no like minded people in a community and there's pitching and the people up do each other's headlines in the cream rises to the top, and you have a chance of getting published again. join us on the other side of the pay. Well, Babylon be dotcom. Slash plans, if you haven't done so already, will be talking more with michael malice about anarchism and our second revised set of ten questions. See they're gonna go next about along these. Subscribers were, on the other side, the pay. Well now you're sent two agencies gulags. You ve just player, and you know the adjust which we adjust. bring you get to Heaven, good news, Look at that who was the first question you are asking god willing. Mr when it comes to christianity, you're your big question, Art is just did they call you sling laden, high school,

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