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Auckland after more than a year of maintaining your innocence, you finally pled guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire and male fraud? Your husband did the same thing. This plea deal does come with jail time, but very leasing, real criminals from jail right now, so the chances of you doing actual time are slim the non so well. Folks, like felicity, have pledged guilty early and had to do actual jail time. You will most likely receive a suspended sentence and do some time on house arrest, but your when will only lead to a great media win because they can finally say full house arrest lorry Laughlin. We knew you relying you knew you were lying but damage kid. You God, Moxie, and that makes you a winner of covert nineteen long but sound Dawson

SAM Harris's join us. Some a fan, his he's, an author philosopher, Noora scientist as well, has a pot gas making sense with Harrison new episodes every week on Apple podcast, Spotify in meditation, APP called waken up and very interesting that I first probably not far, but I remember one of my first rounds with you, watching one bill, Marcia, arguing with Ben Half Hick possessed at the time Thanks for joining us, an assurance pleasure. I find myself not from the same background that you have academically, I have no academic background, but, as a is I travel through this thing called If I find myself thinking more and more about some of the thoughts it you think, quite a bit about is this something that was always interesting for you, this philosophy and nurse

Hence our was it's something. Panic came on to why did everything backwards. I would say I got into esoteric things. Earth like meditation and an interest in the nature of consciousness and interest in religion actually early on and then it was only after that I got interested in science and kind of action to remedy the current. I got into writing and right in what became philosophy and then I discover that I really needed to go. Do some more academic work to do that? Well, and I wasn't a phd in philosophy within At the last minute decided that it made more sense to do a Phd in Euro, just have to be more in touch with what we re learning about the brain. If I wanted to talk about the mind- and you know something about the brain, so It is not the usual order of things by itself,

I now in a position. Happily, do we get all of my intellectual interests on the same page minutes all kind of convergence, and now I think, a lot about the nature the human mind and what constitutes a good life and answer this moral philosophy, combined with neuroscience, combined with public policy and even power x or hours and hours can join in our own, as you probably know, really respect the boundaries between Digital. Is very much, I don't think reality is following me: the architect, RO plan of universities. Are you know you think you can think profitably about really anything an interest you in just rule. We just go back and forth crossing the boundaries when disciplines yeah. I completely agree. You now have a variety of people you listen to and from all sides

the island spectrum and understood a cherry pick all the best of like some kind of jukebox Regis play. Favorite songs- I've been talk. The doktor drew about this a lot, especially during this pandemic and people, and and adults, especially sort of losing their ability to reason and use logic in in a world where everything's captured on videotape in every fact is provable be using their your phone. Are your computer? How far a way. We're getting away from the truth. Is that it it? It's not making sense me. I thought by now we'd all be Sir securely more to the truth, because we have it oh tape, and we have found a way. Computers in it it's all so readily available, but it feels like we're getting further away from up a reality

into every sort of creating their own for of reality. Do you have thoughts on that yeah. It really is cutting both ways. What what technology is doing to us? This is something rather like a psychological experiment that we ve all been enrolled in without they consenting to it and we in the outcome is not at all obvious, but you d you take the pack of social media and the internet generally end. The instantaneous access to information and an ability to communicate well with everyone potentially, and to have your communication, not only go one to one with anyone, but to have it a larger and larger audiences. Will people begin to sing, or to an audience into their tribe within that audience, and this distorting communicate hence distorting people's thinking about the world the adds its improving it inside, places amuse. You can fact check something.

Very easily or is certainly more easily than you used to be able to buy You can also silo yourself off. Two. Echo chamber really just curious by your own delusion, dear your preferred delusions and, and so people used to be that become a we'll crackpot you You had had a wife hard defy either you you did in solitude. I had worked pretty hard to find other crackpots and when you met them at the crackpot conference, they re are look like crackpots right. You can see the dysfunction in their lives and you know they would advertised you. You know author. Their mania and their their religion lack of credibility on many topics, but now you know, you don't know who you're getting information from, and it could be some eighteen year old. The proverbial mothers basement

just blogging about whatever it is: nine eleven truth or something that you know some rabbit hall, you ve gone down and you spend a decade down that hall, not recognising who you're dealing with or whether its russian boxer or Whoever getting information to your heads does cut both ways and am polish on the prospect of community in general. I think we can just continue the conversation long enough, we converge more and more on untruth, but you do and basic principles by which to do that, and one is have to be alert to confirmation bias? In your case, you have to be alert to just seeking out. This is when's tendency to seek out. Confirmation of your cherished opinion, and ignore this confirmation. And if you just looking for reasons why it's possible to believe something, rather than looking for the reason, the things that I disk confirm your view you can

he's fine reasons why it's possible to believe something, because its is rare to have a view even a crazy one, completely knocked down for all time by a specific facts. So it son yeah, and they will have to become more intelligent consumers, information. What on earth in I'll deserted Leap from topic? The topic been telling people for a while now that we're going to need to sort of take charge. Of our mental hygiene? A little better than we ve been doing in the past and the physical part we got you know, you're, no longer working chopping swing in an ax all day, you're, not working at a saw mill, you're, not upon your feet or not carrying a gourd with water in it on your head. So we invented a treadmill, may go run on that and we use

strap on awaited vast dissimulate, the logs you would be carrying back to the camp sites. We, we kind of rate physically figured out you need to stimulate this. You know indoor rock, climbing walls and stuff, like that. You know just an indoor mountain that we stimulate climbing a mountain and acts. I've got it with idle We like we anticipated the mental part of this, its invisible You know you, you see yourself, pudding, weighed on you, see it you don't see yourself getting crazy and here and what it was some go ahead. Europe has a very important distinction, the the the invisibility of the mind and then the lack of of social proof for change image. So, as you say, in a physical training is a thing and we wonder stood out, for at least a century. But it used to be a completely esoteric thing. Rights are a hundred. Fifty years ago the only person engage

in real physical training was that free? the circus you know with the handlebar mustache ripe rose, was not. It made no sense to be living that way and and you can imagine that sort of reclaim some of that early astonishment when you leave you just think of how strange physical exercise looks from the outside. If you don't understand the project, will you look at somebody just picking random heavy objects and putting them down over and over again, it's bizarre, but The results are there for all to see. Now It is a fact, as you say, that mental training now is justice. Esoteric is physical, as physical exercise was over a century ago, and yet it is a thing of the mind. Is some basic level. What the brain is doing and people have this notion that mental growth stops in adulthood

the elaborate they understand, you can learn new things. Your mind itself. Doesn't fundamentally, prove you can't actually become a better person. A a kinder person, a more compassionate person. I ate more deeply wise person. You can try Form your personality in that basically that's untrue, is, is it's hard and the fact that its hard makes it I got to see just how far the person can take this project, and their ways to see the possibility, and many of us didn't discover the better things like meditation. Until we first took psychedelic and in my case I honestly wasn't it European, if I had not taken M Dna. The first time I would not have understood that my mind could be a much better place to live in than than it was tending to be, and

wouldn't have sought out. Meditation is a practice, and even if I had sought it out, I think I had. I not seen how much greener the grass was on the other side of the fence, I probably wouldn't have even seen the fence right and because it you know, I took some significant training before I started to really expiring benefits, but you can you can it in the same way that you can with his physical exercise? You can transform your moment to moment experience of the world and the IMF of doing that is, is of interest a basic recognition that you're in in each moment your mind is all you have read it and more than you, quality of your mind, determines quality of your life and inequality relationships end you everything you find captivating at the level of your attention? The goals to which you aspire? And the way you you know at the past and end and degree

which you worry about the future all day. These are mental events and your relationship to your thoughts. Its and moods and emotions candy fund. We changed under. It takes some work to do that, but it is certainly worth doing well. The thought that was coming to my mind as your saying that and I I annex parents are first time I took mushrooms when I was like nineteen or twenty, which is I'm not at psychedelic. Guy per se. Have I've had much taken mushrooms a few times but I remember thinking Oh I'm now thinking differently than what I was sort of indoctrinated teeth. And what I mean is, as I remember getting high mushrooms and as well, tv and commercial came on fur. Lee press on nails, plastic, red nails, women would stick to the end of their fingers and I thought what you want to watch on mushroom I've ever thinking now.

If I was in high it would just be the fifty seven hundred time I saw commercial furtively press on nails, but now that I'm high I'm examining this world that we ve created this society were created where the females? species. Are sticking these bloody red extensions, essentially raking clause and remember When I was high. Oh, you ve never had these thoughts, you wouldn't have examined it and looked at it. This You wouldn't have sort of taken this approach to what you're looking at you would have just seen it had another swing. Your beer and and move moved on, and so I always kind of recognise them. Value of removing yourselves sort of from how are you How society thinks you right in the middle of it? You know it's hard to away from it. This way getting away from. It in my mind- is that makes sense here yet yeah they're, really two different aspects,

TAT s me? One is you can change the the key tens of consciousness. You can you can have new ideas, you can think indifferent patterns and all that's worth doing, because you know the content of our our minds so often are, This is really small conversation. We tend to have with ourselves mergers just judging ourselves and were warned about the future and were reply in conversations we had was somebody in our heads. And were be judging everyone else, and we just it there's a kind of mediocrity and Maybe aren't lady eaters. Stern ally's your thoughts You will notice that you use your beauty, at the same story over and over again, and you ve lost your capacity to be bored mere. Like the perfect audience. Written was boring person in the world and not others. Taking out of you personally, but really everyone who right who practice?

meditation. You just noticed how repetitive these patterns are, and so you can through all that guy, my shaken things happen in a variety of ways for senior was having better conversations with people who the things you don't and worry new skills and reading good books. We do all of that and that's worth doing and her turban, the brain with those academic, Sir Europe or marijuana some some I, like that amount is not all. Drugs are the same, but some clear kick open the door to new levels of creativity and Andrews connecting up Britain perceptions and ideals, ideas in ways that are novel and so that the whole poetic engage. Where's reality that that can get. Jump started there and its inner that's worth doing, but the core

goal of meditation, to change. One relationship with the contents of consciousness entirely so that at some level doesn't it doesn't matter what the thoughts are or what them the emotions are. You want recognize things, as mere appearances in this dispute. A spasm, that's that's knowing things which he I look for consciousness, her awareness for lack of a better word, and that's that Transition from being lost in thought, perpetual, to recognising thought of whatever they are made could be reviewed beautifully inside Our thoughts are the most boring thought you, all day just noticing these days, bits of language or images in the mind. As appearances there, breaks a spell which is really the the chorus

our psychological suffering, militant. We spend all day feeling like feeling like there's a subject in our heads right that we are going to riding around in a body like a passenger. Wait, we don't feel like Denticle to our bodies. We feel like. We have bodies and we feel like the subject, in that sense of being the finger of thoughts or the experience of experiences that there's something in the centre of experience is not merely identical to experience, because So it's having the experience. Feeling of. I that's what it feels like thinking, without Thirdly, recognising thoughts as appearances in consciousness that the meditation the real purpose of meditation is is to have that recognition and then there's a something, very interesting happens oil. You begin to the kind of well being. There is not predicated on anything changing or anything happening cycles? Rusted the inherent

tranquillity of consciousness is a thing. You're noticing and then then in that moment doesn't matter that use. The last thought that came through your mind was an angry one or the other The pain in your knee has not gone away, or you know it's just you. You're. Well being is not contingent upon changing the contents of consciousness and the next moment. Well, let's talk about and I realize I had this thought the round never had before. I know that we fight chain she and I were constantly fighting changing, I know personally and of somebody says: hey em, you could probably be a better parent. If you did, acts wine z, I mean you go when you mean I do blah blah blah in I'm, I'm already kind of pushing back in our instead of absorbing it going ok, I think I think I'm a good parent, but I could be better solved. Do that I do

That reaction of I do this and I do that everyone's kind of pushing back against change I also realise probably built whole society. Against that I mean our or the help perpetuate that. I have this sort of thing. That Madison Avenue in companies and society figures out pretty quickly. What works, what our capacities pan. Cities are what we want to do. So, if we're fine or based- and and you turn on the news and it's the new death tall, hit, save MECCA Plateau and almost eighty thousand in its like. Ok verve selling pancakes ass there They know what we do and they're giving it to Us you know what I'm saying and so our society and our culture is basically

built itself around this us now, wanting to change. You know it's like where you got asylum, this brand of toothpaste when their fifteen, because they use it for the rest of their life and they won't they won't angel. You gotta, get among this brand of cigarettes set at fifteen or whenever it is, and I am realizing that we share be changing and everything is kind of can firing against us changing, except for folks, like you who are sort of outlier sing. Do this different? although that is a growing population, but. Change in our society to have thoughts about that. Well. Yeah. We there kind of changes. We want, obviously many people, most people have a model of war

as they want their lives to change where they have a list of things they want. You, whether their career goals, are relationship, calls for they want to improve their health and their people change, but they want control right. They wanted. They want to be able to move in an orderly way from where they are and where they want to be end If you just so happens, we're living in a system and in work work that system out of our minds and brains are our systems themselves, where control, is basically an illusion. We don't control at all, we over anything until we have the we have a pretence of control in in certain ways me you can. You can tell to be, who you were yesterday, and most of us will will tend to do that. You didn't invent yourself, you didn't pick your genes, are your parents or conditions in which you grow up you, you haven't made your mind and every child

sure you're making now is stone all these. You know this patterns of condition in that proceed. You you know you as the conscious the sub of your life until you, you know you. Again, you have exactly the level of effort and ambition that you have today and not an ounce more if somebody- has a conversation with you in really inspires you to to do better to work harder will then be less. That's an influence that can have its effect, but but you didn't pick how that info to and to what degree of their rights and some well. Everything's was happening right end We also know that anything. Point can happen in this sphere. Corona virus pandemic warrior for all its other effects you wanting teaches us that you can try. Life can change. Everyone very, very clean and emphatically

and in a way that no one really for some time- and it was this was totally foreseeable, but it wasn't foreseeable that to happen The February and So your son, like were part of history, remember many of us here in a uniform because of the same age, I didn't really free like I was part of history until nine eleven right before nine eleven, I felt like basically other history was. One thing. History is something you read about in history books, but they were live at a time of real order, and- and when be fundamentally surprised by by the direction that civilization tags and then peoples are fine plans in our buildings and all of a sudden. We have a decade that is filled with multi trillion dollar wars and and our concerns about a theocracy in the Middle EAST and terrorism in, and this is this pandemics, another one of those things where it was

lurching out of the shadows, and you realize, while there is nothing ten thing good here, apart from human, ingenuity and the capacity to cooperate more. We will we need to maintain above all else, and this is why you know that the pollution of our information space. So toxic waste to maintain and ability force seven years to seven now nearly eight billion people, a billion strangers to cooperate with one another peacefully man, that's that's the only thing that guarantees that this project is open, ended and we know have problems, mouser problems we have to solve them and many of them only admit of of global solutions at this point and the pandemic responds and intelligent responds to a pandemic is certainly one of those things as it

and tell response to way you economic attacks, further follows our response to the pandemic, so there's there's just on some level. It is really humbling how how. A minimal? The tools are we we have here too with which would wish to do anything away, and the most basic tool is This conversation among p who are willing to be motivated have occurred about Heaven Appropriate emotional responses to a common set of FACTS can't acknowledge this in part of a straw reality and admit that fax or fax, or if we have enough, we have all subset of humanity. You have completely deranged emotion, responses to the same tax because they have You know insane beliefs about Paradise in the afterlife and martyrdom away, to take one example conversation, cooperation becomes impossible and you know what we keep. Witnessing the war,

and what's that hour by hour in our world and it some it's really that on some, what was the only thing going on that? Can we can we cooperate and annex and human knowledge and useful ways or are with those copper. When a breakdown for, a recent area reasons of van impossibility of communication. Well, I and I should clarify myself, because we we love. The sub of change. We just don't personally like this. It's like we like prince it's just not nor back yard hoping change. You know we're three days away from fundamentally changing this asylum. We like that kind of change, but we don't like engaging in it, but a baby that Weird thing that we'd like talking about it and hearing about it a lot, but we don't do it personally that much in yeah facts.

I am very, very attractive to facts and its names, they seem so accessible now and so it almost seems like the people who the facts don't have are waging a amours strident war against facts like, like, I just said that that whole conversation with you on real time. Abandoned and bill. Was you and you and bill trying to push some? facts and not in a radical way, just push some facts out ahead in fighting people that work wrestling with the facts, even though they didn't need to. There is if there was a conversation that could have could have been had right, you Ellen! Occasionally you want

patients breaking down. It is useful to look at the assumptions people here when consider their often implicit they're, not necessarily suppressed in the conversation and in here is the problem with normal television. Unlike I cast is the The time pressure makes conversation so often impossible. I use everyone's was struggling to get a word in edgewise end into auctions really threaten. You know that you will be taken out of context or or just on say what you you need to say. Whereas on upon cancer, you even really let the conversation breathe and that's why podcasting is enjoying such a bomb but there in a one assumption, is that you all religions are at bottom, the same, an end. They teach the same thing. I teach it equally. Well, Here they can all get hijacked by extremists and perverted by at bottom there all teaching love and compassion and Andrews

act for the individual and an damn. You know that good messages and their equivalent. Now just not true right either but where they do seem to teach teach the same thing: they don't teach it equal equally well and a worse either when you get to theirs there, sir. Start were green, which true believers have do believe in order to be in good standing in that faith community there mutually exclusive. Believe that Jesus, the Son of God, that is for me within his arm right says: there's a deal breakers. Hiccup is about it Offers about as much compromises a coin toss right so that the roof and a religion stand that there's no reconciling there. There most cherished believes

and it's only. The moderates are the people who kind of lost their purchase on their faith. Who can can engage in a truly open, ended interfaith dialogue with seems too promise, some media, the mines moderation, definitely better than fundamentalism. Ethic moderation is great, except it it doesn't it off. Quite dishonest because it doesn't. It doesnt acknowledge how it became moderate, and the EU is certainly don't become moderate. By reading the books, more mostly God, is not a moderate. And this in the Bible were moderation. Recommended, and so anyway, one assumption is that that man was labouring under there. Was that bigotry could explain a specific concern about Islam if you're alive a guy who's, more worried about Islam in the aftermath of

nine eleven than you and you are about Mormonism Orang Mechanism or even Scientology. The only way to be more worried about Islam. There is to be racist or a big it and that is untrue. If, if you, what would then needs is to getting conversation with an Ex Muslims, I was a moderate Muslims, were real, moderate Muslims and- you will understand. I feel hurt here the same concerns from them that I was voicing in conversation, and you know he won't be some. Used by the color of her, listen skin or their their country of origin. Well, I I can't figure out- and I think the crystal- agents is a guy. You enjoy correct year of random, and I was watching him talking having it on ninety. Second, why I believe it was, and he was talk

Islam and its Point two said the thing that I'm saying about Islam, I can say here- I couldn't say them in parts of Europe and parts of the world, because I would fear what would happen to me as I left the auditorium, I'm pair, raising, but you know what I'm saying to me that sort of an ultimate truth. You know If, if, in fact you have a choice, we have Brower traffic of the newspaper that printed the day have dire, hammered out right today, the day in the danish cartoons controversy before that right now, you can tell me all you want about the history. Christianity and Mormons and Judaism, or what

have you can. You can tell me all about the Crusades, but I would not print that cartoon. That was did and that newspaper for fear that something could happen and an Christopher. What voice the same thing? And you can look at all the statistics you want, but to me, that's it bigger truth that that's that's a more. That's a real world truth and in bed ass, I can say there you know the amount of people that would do anything to him or them at the newspaper. Whenever its midst minuscule its minister, you could say all you want, but don't we all share that Ruth and have that feeling and If, so, why do we have that feeling? Well? Just there's no argument against that s actually point I made to ban as as well the table

So you off air, but this is something as we're walking back to the green room, this precise, The point I made which, as you know, acting like there's no difference between these religions, but you know that if we decided to burn like a woman here on air tonight, you people pissed off. We would have gotten hate mail, but it It ended there. Had we burned a copy of the Koran on this show tonight there to everyone on this panel would spend the rest of their lives dealing with those consequences right. And the consequences were not, as the consequences wouldn't have been local economies. Are you you burn Koran on on HBO, he again to you Certainly that point There would have been riots by people by tens of thousands would have rioted and in Afghanistan and Iraq and Scores What would have died over that? No question? You bet your life on it and

That is the difference. That is the case, can make sense of it in terms of these theology. There there's others is not an accident that that difference exists, but yeah, some levels a summer with its potentially true of other religions too, and it is certainly true of Christianity in the fourteenth century. So Some of you can say that that Islam is where Christians Christianity was a long time ago and which is out of step with modernity and in a way that that other agent, other religions aren't and that's a huge difference, right and it son it has to be. Aligned with modernity to the point where you can actually. Criticise ideas without fear, in hunted by sea- of for the rest of your life and there, people in I have friends who are being hunted by theocratic for the rest of their lives for things they have written or sad about Islam and

no words not safe for them to travel to certain countries, and they have to get security wherever they go. Even in this one that that's amazing things that even in the states, You were not aware of having given up our first amendment rights on this particular That way, we will were aware of it at the margins amusement when South Park has to put Mohammed in a bare suit. And so you only see a bear in the car in the in the cartoon when they even that is insufficient. They get death threats and they have to take that episode offer how many central as it at the time you know dont really score. That is as a major societal cost, but you are accessing it. Open causing massive self Sandridge censorship on this topic for decades now,

ever since frankly, written Salman Rushdie published these satanic verses and in eighty nine and you don't have to The liberal intelligentsia blamed him for having defame day a great faith in blamed him for the death threats and for the decade he had to spend in hiding we have a lot, we will just have never reclaim the ground of of Real equality here were and real equality. As you know, you should be able to stage a Broadway play, making fun of Mormonism and what happened Here's the Mormons, take out ads in play bill for their release. Right now is completely good spirited retort to your. You know you're happy artwork as we know that if there had been a broadway production making fun of Islam, you know No one would stage it and there be bomb threats for every performance and efficient work would have been at the time the book Mormon came out, and so

when this problem. This is not a problem. Anyone's paying attention to now given covered and and our other pollutants. Political concerns, but is this problem is also not gone away, and I think I think we all will be living with the the heightened concerns about jihadism, ultimately other than the most doctrinaire form of fundamentalism that that is a generation of thing that we still have to unwind and in and which has had to speak honestly about well I mean I remember, Ben gauzy. We were blaming the cartoonist to Meda cartoon that of offence right here now, when some He sets an embassy on fire and burns people alive. The notion of setting having the car. Tunis, getting them in Europe os hairs in your eyes toward the cartoonist means

horribly misguided, we're we're missing the point, and I I would say intentionally missing the point I have a yes no there You can see the source code running in the background you're. The reason why this is this is what was confounding then Side of the conversation there's this notion that again, concerns about racism and colonialism sneak in here and there it is a logical error, because personal Islam is not A race right as long as a set of ideas and end, sums can come from any raise Nina person? Can convert, person can convert five minutes in there. Now they are a Muslim as honest professor certain to believe so ideas, and so this is in Ireland and any comparison between Islam and

another religion, that wit with which it in conflict rather often hinduism them right has has people in this case India, India, who look indian because they are indian on both sides at equations of racism has absolutely nothing to do with this right and in any, says something he couldn't quite see, that rhetoric calling us raises an idle. I am not sure I have a bunch of thoughts I'm not sure if people who are calling people like you and some times me races think were racist, I'm not exactly convince that's what they are What will it be a minute if you can see that if an active are lazy, they might think because there are real racists in the world Who really, who can, who is certain?

echo some of these same thoughts. I bet you know that there are real razors who don't want any more immigration, not for all the all the rational reasons you might be concerned about immigration, but they just don't like you. More brown skinned people from other voters in their on theirs Reed's right, and so did you ask those people about when you think about Islam. Although I have some uncharitable things to say about Islam, and if I'm saying and unbearable things about Islam, I can sound like an echo in those p I can see that the possibility confusion there, but you just have to meet you here. What I also say about white supremacist and white nationalism and even find him Christians. It should be obvious, within about fifteen seconds, that their concerns about race has have absolutely nothing to do with concern about his arm and It makes no sense, because you know if anything, my argument applies even more to weigh a war,

convert to Islam from like someone like John Walker, landing on the so called american Taliban, or Adam Garden at the guy from- county who, who were her joy? Al Qaeda and these guys who had every opportunity to get their head straight in in what it was, one for a century enlightenment values and they still found their way down the rabbit whole jihadism, and so is so it it's just has it is just not a variable here, but I do think some people are genuinely confuse and then some people are militias. We gaming, in our leveraging that confusion, because they know it, they know it works in the thing that was so startling about that collision with ban on on bills show is there I learned that if you simply call someone a racist fully, have the people in the audience, will think that think that that person. Was exposed as a racist.

What are you, you simply have to say, you're a racist and fifty four people- we leave summarizing the conversation thinking alma. Did you see how he expose that that that racism It is in real time. Would you saw that racism just just leave that guy? it's amazing is such a charged concept on the left, specially that you know the mere allegation made. It work, some surfer sexism and a few other isms by It is a winning move for the people who are most whore filtering by that concern, above all others and its use The problem with the whole weakness. Would you mind virus? Has it's not that it's not that concerns about racism are in valid. Racism is a real problem, diminishing problem. Happily, with the idea that worse were living, you know it

they twenty, exactly where we worry, no one that the Civil Rights ACT was passed or in a struggling to be passed as assistance. Fundamentally, not true, but it's not like it's not a valid concern, but european in its in the minds of many people on the farm, It is certainly an exaggerated concern among the racism detectors, or so Coralie calibrated that they find it everywhere. You noticed everything. Altered against the color people skin. I have a thought which obviously sing everything through the color everyone's skin. You know I just heard I call more on the aforementioned real time show from last week and he was like to he. You know every time he opened his mouth is like.

In own mish. Again we have a black the aim of black governor black, my female merit, not a bunch of white due to like I'm realizing. Do you know what that sounds like that? You're constantly harping on the color of people? skin and its also weird to have middle age white guy talking to middle aged, like I cheering on the fact that there is not a middle aged white guy who's, the iter, in general of this city or that state? It seems like they would be more self aware what they sounded like. I have we're not want aware it up? Oh, yes, he is aware, but his audience see you're, not the audience. The audience is of the near the fellow. The fellow walk, because. That is a united this. This phrase virtue signal in which, unfortunately, was a good phrase. It meant something worth.

But now it's this just this way of slamming people answer for media. But there is this. There is talk to the tribe and the kind of performance and its yeah. It is obviously this can't be the end game for a civilization that gets over racism. Maybe if we, if we get to a future than in the sort of future that that Martin the king, Jr envisioned or people are valued for the content of their character. It's not big, cause, we will have fallen to its logical conclusion and just endlessly Diner rithmetic based on skin color in every circumstance, No, we won't want to cease to care about skin color right, isn't it we won't be too in greater piece of it and,

becoming more and more fair across in any way you can do no slice and dies the pie, you're, not gonna, walk into a hospital and and find out. Actually, how many cardiologists are from Pakistan? too many Jews. You know I mean it's just that that is clearly a more, dead, end will just get to a place where skin color- is analogous to hair color, and we would never occur to you to wonder how many cardiologists or blonde versus brunette right and whether the mayor in over how long's it been since we ve had a blonde mayor occur to you as our post. Racial society would be one where we ve gotten over. This vexation and we simply ceased to care about the cholera person skin, and you know that that's the end game. And we recognise were not there yet is how do we get there and the far left and Michael Moors? I don't know

I am personally, but here he certainly seems to be somewhere so left of me in and somewhere near the edge of the cliff there, the far left seems to think that the the way there is the care more and more and more about race, right and, and it's just that is to stay. Obviously, I obviously Can't be true unless they have some story. Well about. Why will we will reach some tipping point and then magically ceased to care? in Ireland, some happy Wednesday and and you don't see that happening. I I'm gonna teases goes again, take a quick break but yeah. How do we simultaneously care and talk more racing, and then they know is this the sort of insane proclamation that it's time we had an odd dialogue about race that these people, never one engaging, but I'll teach

this question, because I had a theory which is as President Obama was nearing the end of his second term, the folks Michael more, whose sort of make a business finding issue and racism had real I say had to ratchet up their game. Realized had to look get a fine or jewellers, loop out to find more racism, because we have a black president who just got elected for a second term, so actually won into overtime verses. What I sort of call in the late nineties remained behind these, which is little tonight conversations about it, but will see what you think on that would take. A quick break will come back with same Harris right after this Adams. New audio book is done and its fantastically unapologetic, I'm starting with a warning. I'm not gonna

Allah for anything in this book, I'm not going qualify anything in this book, a veto. Something in this book, kiss my Harry Ass I'm your emotional support, animal, navigating our all woke, no joke culture, written in narrated by Adam Corolla, Rio, now that I'm corolla dot com same Harris, sustain with us making sense with same Harris, namely the pod cas every week, new episodes on Apple podcast, Spotify and the minute meditation app waking up so my feeling is. Is this sort of business race hustling as we move, them further away from the actual racism that we serve recall from the past folks, are now having to work harder to find it that make sense. You, SAM. Yeah yeah. There is no question that the

the forms of racism that people Imagine if discovered they did. They get subtler and subtler an end as it should be in the we're. That's what it would look like make progress on issues of race and again. I am not denying that is more progress to be made, but let's acknowledge the progress, many people, who are the people who pretend defined in racism everywhere, acting like says the worst of all times, with respect to re, slightly inhabit. Having had eight to turn black president, men. Nothing I that was just is in a symbolic and and now Things have gotten worse and united it's easy to see their concern in tromp amended, and this is why why they Miss calibration here, so consequential insane? I am I, Probably now I'm no fat the president's and down. I haven't.

Nothing to say about him, but what I will say is that men, the charges against him are now for the come from the left on things like your racism are soap. Early targeted that they're they're just their false. And been know where they would. They would find racists and other contacts who are clearly not racist or you are not motivated by racism, and and I say this really having. No doubt the trunk is a racist in order that I'm, I do believe, I know enough about the man to to say that, but it's just you you have to be precise in and making the Gallagher and the left is so hysterical on this topic that your precision is almost never never what's your meeting here and so we have to acknowledge the progress made and the progress we want to do yet make and the principle by which we would make progress and again the principle would be to try

people as individuals and Herr less and less about raise frame, and I am out at last You find I find that so Dave Reuben said something that just kind of stuck in my head when he was, I think, working for the young turks- and I was very, very liberal, very left us At some point you just said he had this realization, which is how could everyone who disagrees with us be a racist? I don't have it at work. How's it mathematically possible that people disagree with us on every every of every discuss in politically how come there all races and The chances remain that is in by basically had an epiphany, which is we can't just call em, and who disagrees with us or this policy of this political idea. A racist

I'm wondering if Europe, that racist card too often, if it starts falling on deaf ears, Wada, my daddy and that's that's it a disservice to Everyone who had who comes up against a real instance of racism and is just a file justifiably outraged over it. The same thing with sex crimes, if you call everything rape right, if it if a bad joke, is also a version of rape or I A glance on an awkward glance worry even ahead on the five o clock, but maybe I supported here not Andrew giving us an assault right, yeah in we have voted today and our gradations of assault. Raymie, not every sexual assault, should be called rape either. So right, if we can be be precise about what we're talking about then devalues the

the real victims of real injustice and, Yes, I'm here the paradox here or there were the pseudo paradox is, It is true to say that all the racists are on one side politically, our saw all the re, already deal, the the racists of the usual sort right, all the white supremacist None of them were going to vote for Hillary Clinton, and any of them who would vote would probably have voted for Trump that doesn't mean that all the people voted for tramper, racist right and an that's you know, but that there may be. Much to Paris for it when, when someone simply why to have a single reason. Why are Society is so politically divided. Well, you know it's interesting while I think it could be parsed if somebody to burn the catholic priests, but I don't think they wanted to burn the calories, so

you're, saying to ban ass lack, hey, ah, not all Muslims are nowhere near all. Muslims are violent or wood with gauge and violent behaviour, but a percentage of are and that's a big enough percentage to be dangerous. Our I'm paraphrasing and Ben Ben Afflux is saying to you just because a handful of extremists out there doesn't make that group. Those people essentially, but he then, the next day, would probably say all trump supporters are racist, even though. It's the same. Math in a weird, in a weird way, his he would be a hypocrite, because he would say that

you about Muslims and then make the exact same argument. And himself, although Unknowingly about trump supporters near the hypocrisy here- is. It's pretty amazing, because you're talking about people who who think I care about, let's say in a women's rights and equality, political equality and equality of opportunity, tween the sexes, but there totally sanguine about the compulsory availing of half the women in these muslim societies and the other their forced illiteracy and in many of these societies and. And the idea that you criticised this behaviour I advocate for women never occurs to people on the left, in the only were the only way to criticise the women. Workers in Afghanistan,

to be insensitive to the norms of an ancient culture that doesn't want any of your Coloni all racist bullshit and that's that that double standard should be obvious right. If you to be born. A girl in Afghanistan is to be borne unlucky right, that that is obvious, and if I sent my daughter's over to Afghanistan for a multi year, internship with the Taliban, where they were forced to live in, ass bags, I would be father writes that then, that it is We can recognise And we should, and we can't waited. Not all, could not all cultures have an equal pay. On the basics of Human happiness and and and the norms that allow us to create a society of greater and greater political equality, and we we barely have

sure those norms ourselves writes a worse, but we can see that the direction go away the inner towards the daylight, and it is again it is it in giving people you know, the opportunity they can use and end in over I mean our tribalism right in and what's so deranged about the the far side of the political spectrum left and right now, is that it is in some it's a kind of tribal, isn't that makes conversation impossible. Random wages do we know what the the end goal needs to be here, we doing we need We need to be worthy of all the freedom we can handle right, end what we want minimal. We want. We want government to intrude as little as possible, but to be truly effective, where we need it and-

technology, is changing the story and impressive ways me that one of the reasons why it's it's not irrational to worry about tiny numbers of people who believe crazy things or compared tiny numbers of people who believe crazy things. Isn't it with the power of our technologies becoming easier and easier Small numbers of people to screw up the walk old for everyone else ran a hundred years ago in a fifteen people could not have been down a society now we're getting took place where fifteen people could do that, whether you're talking about biological weapons Miller Brawl World hunger down in the middle of it. Will pandemic in trillions and trillions of dollars in the face of egg comparatively minor via right. I'm in this virus could be so much worse right. I am not saying that the lock down is is irrational. In fact, I'm

I don't think it has been. I think that we should have done it more emphatically and and more effectively, but you know sounds to me, but I just imagine what a it better weapon ized version of aid. Away. I'm alive She had not highly if a virus spread like measles, but, as you know, ten times more lethal, there then the measles mean that that is a shuts down the world and that very soon is within reach of of honestly high school student, two weapon eyes, and so what we will be tempted to create far more intrusive governments- phase of these technological advances in the fairly near future, and we need what for conversation about all of that and we need what we will need to

to figure out what to do in the face of believe you truly crazy beliefs wearing a people. People think that you get everything you want after you die and there's no reason to continue the human cry one more minute right, that's it! You get desktop printing of DNA sequences married to kind of other worldliness. You have you have a terrible problem on your hands and we know this is coming right in and we spend your time. You know with the the work on one side and the end. The people in trumpet stand on the other arguing about nonsense and dumb? what we need is intelligent collaboration on the ten most in problems that we face in and that seven years is the dysfunctional politics it's making that impossible. I agree, there's a thought. The cap keeps certain popping into my head that I'd love to bounce off you in and yes, just a short cut back

The folks at are constantly lecturing us about women and women's rights in oppression and so on and so forth. Having then no thoughts, Islam and there oppression of women that to me said maybe they're not is concerned with women's rights, as is maybe they than initially spouted off about, but I feel the same way, but in others. A thought that I keep thinking witches. It's illegal to punch, anybody in the face in this country and fear ethically We should be able to talk. Shit MIKE Tyson the same way, we wanted to talk shit about south stream. The diminutive act they're from the family guy and beyond, but we still go. I'm not gonna talk she had about MIKE Tyson, because I think, if I saw he might put

me, and I dont- want to be punch by MIKE Tyson, and I feel like we Can you do that with Islamic go? This is America, we have rights, we say, We want freedom of everything, but we can't go. I plus I could get punished by Islam and I'm gonna bite my lamp and self. I go on tv, I'm going to choose the ban athletic posh year. More than this Harris spot check how much of it is just a pure rep, alien brain. This guy may punch me. We are certainly a factor, and it is a much greater factor in muslim majority countries. If you live in Bangladesh you're were Pakistan remedy, either blasphemy laws and their atheist blogger, who who get hunted down and old in front of their families in these countries, just It is not even for you being, especially

critical of of Islam, just just declaring their their unbelief that their change of heart about God, ramesses it's too killing offence. In under Islam, and then the least, I think now twelve country, based on their their actual laws You didn't enforced laws to to lose. Your faith Lord or end to convert to another faith or to convert to none and citizens quite literally no freedom of thought there and as it was in the fourteenth century under Christendom right. So there were burning heretics alive on street corners in cities. Paris in London, and we did that for for a good long while before we we realized, we wanted the key. And of human life. You can only get when you stop burning people alive for thought crimes we wanted better.

Freedom and more creative, less stressful, said a political norms, and when we were right to want those things and ultimately the muslim world will need one things, and only to relax their standards of adherence to ancient books, written by fairly ignorant people. Ryanair and ass, as has happened among Jews and Christians, which, for the most part, and it some Without that progress It is worth recognising what that progress consists of a consistent taking the content of these books less and less seriously, knowing can see. The God wants. You kill your neighbor. If you catch him working on the Sabbath. You pretend I didn't say that or you just you ignore you do it. You don't read Leviticus, for you know, more than once a decade and you skip over that it are you

EL up. Some reason why you know it's not worth paying attention to anymore and Christianity, and then Judaism have done that to a degree that it is hard to achieve now in the muslim world, and it has to be achieved. Some final thoughts come. I keep saying that there's, this growing chasm that may continue to grow and that we always talk about it said a financially the haves and the have nots, but there seems to be a group that seems to be heading toward meditation toward diet toward philosophy or stoicism. Her many of these other disciplines martial arts. What happy this very strong, healthy, positive, physically

seems like what's your diet is, but also what your exercises, but also what you watch your regiment is mentally again, all the other things we kind of talked about, and and their portion of our society. That's eating more fast food and watching more playing more video games per day and in in putting weighed on in doing all the sort of negative negative things it with you wouldn't want your kid or society. But and I believe that is going to create this kind, some that's not out, you know back and that a hunt years ago, there was rich guys and poor guys, but there were both skinny post sort of believed in God and above sort of right your kids, the same. Why now we're getting further and further heart and I dont know we're just gonna- keep going or watch your ass. You ve, given Any consideration.

Yeah. I am worried about well inequality and have been for some time and in all of the the other factors this this wealth Inequality comes along with this. His well or maybe it perpetuates, or maybe it leads us by I'm in this zone, perpetuating a minute, there's all of the cultural norms that begin to get segregated by class and yeah, I'm is not, is not a clearer line on all of these things, but yea it. You know if it is true, the things have changed to take. Look at the at the the wealthy people in our society. Now it's not like an episode of of doubt Navvy, where you just have the leisure class where there there very idle and they're, just you everyone's pollyanna, an extra ten or twenty pounds and as a sign of your behalf, prosperous you are and

no more wealthy people and for the most part work longer hours than any one else now raymie there their their work. Colleagues, they there really into fitness and their super exerted on the kinds of educational opportunities they give their kids, and you know that the carbon machinery of advantage that gets turning and get it is across all of these domain. So celebrated the difference in health between top one percent and me the the class is enormous and is bigger than the between the middle class and and the poor and ass if to speak now and it sir united in its enormous different matter, would be analogous to cure it to get there. Middle class up to where the one percent are with us the house would be an outward analogous.

Change to cure in cancer across the board room is just is enormous. Difference in health outcomes So it's out yeah, I'm in this. A certain point we need ask ourselves just how much inequality, You know that again in every respect, women in terms of material resources in terms of education in terms of justice disk every time I helped here comes of it here. Inequality. We're going to tolerate in society and when what the remedy is wanted becomes intolerable and people were you gonna reflexively, against redistribution? Need, recognize that we note that there is no guarantee we're not going to wake up in a world where there's enough eighty percent unemployment in this country, and Jeff basis. Is our first trillion her

right, miss I like and that that just makes no moral sense on some level. Even if you are the trillion air, because what sort of world we want to live in and they do you actually just wanna compound ring by razor wire, and you know what you want armed guards in yours in in the Serbian with you as you. Well, you see all around the city is yes, centrally become Pablo Escobar exactly, but here's that question. I see, I dont believe taking some of this is money in breaking at offer. Redistributing and is the answer to redistribution of information are, or it say, as someone who comes from that world I realize I didn't grow in the inner city, but I grew up on welfare and food stamps, and I grew up a monk those people and its

Howdy, it's it's: it's like the schools, the is in great but thing that causes more harm than the school system is the culture of knowing or not discussing are discussing even what what achievement is or what what education is or what are or were you you get a job. You fight keeper workshops and then you die in unknown we didn't have we ve been no one ever discussed we, discuss survival all the time we never discussed thriving, almost the same way with the die, if you're sure, to talk about Missis, Gibson FED with care what we are we just want to get FED were in such a survival moved that we never really gotten to achievement mode, and and somehow. That information which is free needs to be in imported, in in shared, and that to me seems like that would go a long way.

I think you need to ask yourself what the The end game is in Real success, misery take take something like me: the breakthrough, the brain as we will ultimately make an artificial intelligence. We if we play our cards right, if we just keep making profits ass, and we don't derail ourselves with a global. Nuclear war. Or are you not democrat that did not back into some kind of road warrior hell escape where we can't figure out how to improve our computers anymore. We just keep making progress will eventually build machines that are vastly more intelligent than we are right and again. This is not assuming Moors law. It's not assuming any specific. Greater progress will eventually happened because there's nothing magical about having to compete Made of meat you we can, we can build intelligence into our machines, and we can keep getting better at it. When ultimately, it'll be

Chaz me now. The best player in the world is a computer and it will please be a computer and the computers will get better and that will be true of basically use your top ear, modes of human cognition will all of those down ultimately in the car the cost of doing that will be to be able to make a kind of intellect progress, progress in technology and science. It will functionally be just point, wealth out of the the ether rain. Would it be point out of the ground and then the question is what to do with this wealth right now that you should all of this wealth of crew, to the the team at Google. That has made this fundamental breakthrough. So you have. You people who who are based trillion airs and then we have vast second Actors of society were not even yet another sign and truck drivers now that are that are unemployable because we have self driving trucks. It's it's.

You know it's software engineers who are unemployable, because computers are better engineers right that that's a possible in game for us end there's some scenario and under which this would be nothing but good. It would completely if it completely couple, spare eighty from human drudgery right. Nobody in a world where we're just just Pauline wealth out of the air No one should have to work. For any reason other than that they're they're doing something they love to do I'm a bit. They could just be this complete breakthrough. In two, a new ethics of creativity and and It s just a new sense of prosperity were literally all boats arising with this tide, this this technological type. And the only thing that would prevent that is our

political inability to figure out how to share this wealth. Rights are now obviously we're not there. Yet there's no guarantee will get there that we seem impressively. The screwing things up in the meantime, but we're if that's the possible path forward. We at some point we need to. You think, are the ethics and power ex of redistribution, and this idea this calvinist idea that that only purchase a person has on your kind. Our right to exist, is find some profitable work. They can do that. Others will and four like us. Only that's your place in the world. If you figure out something you can do that other people want to pay you for or it's gonna fall through the cracks and you're gonna fall so low. That would normally be ever see you again, I think proper as, ultimately, you, social political progress is us recognising that

Untenable for a variety of reasons, emigrate, Keaton. Given how much luck is involved in succeeding? You know in in any way at all, in our society, again, you didn't take your genes, you didn't pick your parents, you you didn't you. You didn't answer your own intelligence, You know it. You didn't take even more superficial things like you and I can make money by having conversations like this house, is that May I say that this is a job for the two of us. You know it, but for fact, that podcasting is a thing right Bobo, but for the fact that that this technology made it possible to do this we'd have to find something else to do and there's no guarantee that, like Egypt, you change a few things in society which again here you you and I are responsible for all of a sudden. This whole career ass, goes away or becomes a vastly, less lucrative and we have.

Give to something else and again that any the only tools we would use the pivot are things we ve inherited in large measure, based on just good luck. Likely the inequality in work. You know that the key to get ahead injury at age for and spend the rest of his life. Dealing with that right someone who loses their parents before the age of and right and dealing with those consequences- and this is it's just a massive lottery and, and so progress as a civilization and I'm not even sure, speaking in the EU, for the U S now, who was a global civilization progress? has to look more and more like a disposition to cancel the most major disparities in luck in so far as we can write, so it doesn't make a lot of Santa you, and I can have a conversation like this. And then go about our day if people starving to death in westward

I haven't you ever their people starving to death and westward was figure out how to solve that problem. Right. That said it and then we'll nine miles worm setting out the so, but truth is that the ethical significance of distance is is a bit of an illusion rights on its like westward. Yes, it starving and westward would be so galling that you and I would feel a moral imperative to act, but their pay starving to death in Yemen, say right now, we are well we're short our highly. We should feel the same impulse to solve that problem. What sort of talk and of hot folks you argue with who argue about equality? Women's rights should feel way about all the countries that are being wildly oppressive to women as well, but happening nonsense of urgency yeah, so it's a programme. Moral progress on some level is a matter of feet, feeling. Freer and freer in are in our

attention to two fields to feel morally implicate address just without respected, distance and without respect national boundaries and and to build more and more technical, Creek technical solutions so that it becomes effortless to benefit the people who most need benefiting any given moment- and I mean That'S- that's the promise obey they really mature technological global civilization and when it whenever the government apparatus is that rides on top of that, you know, it's amazing, I'm just, they take one example: why come you heard the if you listen to the New York Times by cast the daily. But you know that couple weeks ago, they profile this. This couple, who, run run restaurant in Louisiana and obviously businesses his head torpedoed by the the pandemic, and it was very

Very, am. When you look at the suffering of this couple, who you have everything happened, going great great as it has occurred under the circumstances and then all of a sudden they just biased your bad luck. There, happened to be in a business that was just synonymous with failure under the conditions of a pandemic of any of you, no matter how successful yours, restaurant sure you know one's going to restaurants, you're in freefall right, and so we know it this park ass, your very arresting- and I just realized- I could I could make a material difference in these people's lives by sending them some money. Now that you know they're not allowed a norms around doing that just sending strangers money, but you know I felt the impulse to do it and I realized I could reach out to the to the producer The daily part garrison, and they point of me to go. Find me page today vetted and fell out

What we agreed to do that now. I think we should take the friction a the moral friction out of doing things like that. More and more and we'll all feel better in our abundance, because, again it's absurd. It is pure luck that happened to be in a business amendment up. You know my main gig at the moment, and I also write books but my main gig. My pie cast and Mary, asian app. Bowls of Those things are thriving in condition of of salute economic calamity for most people based Your luck is alive, If not to say that I am, I don't work hard. I do I'm I'm a better, basically a workaholic, but the I could I'm in an industry. The fact that I'm not running a restaurant is pure luck and

until you you just you can't, you have to dash that'd, be morally significant to people with there's a Britain. We have a burden to spread. The lock around, I would say, I agree in and we'll talk again and I have many thoughts about law well, well, debate them slightly biter. I completely, I completely agree and now I was thinking about damn got stuck in a doctor. Drew about down cut Barnhardt, her I'm turning the german theologian knives talking about Frederick Porn God skip and my mind, but anyway I had it. Doctor gruesome may quote about death Friedrich. God, Burn said what I love about. Hover bond rivers are afraid of Bonn offer the Christian Barcelona gear singled out as they get it out. He was. He was her

two or three weeks. Our hang, three weeks before Hitler killed himself in. That's, that's bad luck! That's bad timing, in other wars, ending and one last things are going to do is hang you are right. I do think about that stuff. I knew I'd like to continue this conversation SAM. I appreciate you being generous with your time and I hope in come back, and we can do do an hour? On the subject of luck? You while greater meet you or resume yeah, gray, making sense with SAM Harris's the stand them Station app is called waking up I'll. Let you go SAM I'll, take care of her low business here and will le pick this up again. Sooner than later, I hope you grow. Take her out of nice meeting, you first me, John working from home, while here a lot of us are working from home these days,

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Ah ride. Nashville zany come up June, twelfth in June thirteenth stand up. There live long, overdue and alive part gas, but were due to shows Friday to show centre, will figure that out of tickets available there up on June, twelve and thirteen I'm. Your motion also poured animal well priority, that at Amazon that term and bookmark us and click due priority that audio book is well from an out June. Sixteen and I M going. Are you two page see all the stand up? You want until next time, o eight cow, the roan coming back again knows everything about Mexico in sugar. So next time, uproar for same Harris, Gina Grandma, Brian Saint Mahala,

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