This is the ten percent happier pack cast your host your boy dan hertz, hello. My fellow suffering beings welcome to the show mindfulness- and I have mentioned this before, but my fulness is one of those words that I feel here is being ground down into meaninglessness through wrote, repetition. What is it really. And how do you know if you're actually being michael today, we ve gotta meet potatoes, mindfulness episode for your part of our ongoing experiment with dropping three episodes in a single week side note we did ask you for feedback on that in the response was overwhelmingly positive, so be careful. What you wish for my guest today has been on the show before she's

which is also a regular on the ten percent happier meditation app. Her name is Diana Winston she's, the director of mindfulness education. At u c, l a's, mindful awareness, research, center, she's written several books, including the little book of. Being and the book that we will be talking about today, which is called fully present, the science, art and practice of my fulness. She co author, that was Susan's molly and its now celebrating its tenth anniversary diana herself has been practicing. My less meditation since nineteen eighty nine, including a year as a buddhist none over in burma. In this conversation we talk about how diana defines mindfulness how we know whether we are in a state of bona fide mindfulness, the difference between mindfulness as a state and my fulness as a trade, whether you have to meditate in

or to achieve mindfulness as a trait, what current scientific research says about the benefits of meditation, the link between intuition authenticity and happiness, her definition of happiness, how meditation can help us relate to our bodies differently? How to stop spirals of self self judgment? How creating a top ten list can help you deal with difficult thoughts and how to start practice. My voice without getting overwhelmed by the whole thing annoyingly. You actually have to practice meditation to get all of the benefits and insights that we talk about on the show. That is why we created the ten percent happier apt to help you make meditation. A sticky habit

and according to the people who use our app, it actually works. One happy user writes, I'm learning trying new strategies to manage stress. I've become more aware of my thoughts, habits and emotional responses. I'm growing! I like myself more. It's worth a try to help you give it a try, we're offering subscriptions at a forty percent discount until september. Third, of course, nothing is permanent, so get this deal before it ends by going to ten percent dot com, slash forty, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out calm, slash four zero for forty percent off your subscription when you ve gotta health, in going on. You just want to make that thing less of a thing, so you can feel like yourself again, but we two way days for a doctor's employment or shift your whole day around to get into the dockers office that health thing

can become even more of a thing and the longer you wait, the worse it gets so instead, maybe try amazon clinic of virtual health care service that helps you quickly and discreetly get treatment for common health conditions such as scientists, infections, uti, eyes, me and more from your phone or desktop just open amazon clinic and choose a condition to get connected with it, online doctor or nurse practitioner will give you a personalized treatment plan with any necessary prescription. Amazon clinic is virtual healthcare that fits into your life, so you can get back to being you head to clinic dot amazon, dot com, slash happier to get started. Maybe you stayed in an air b and be before and thought yourself. This actually seem pretty global, maybe my place could be an air, be envy the could be

simpler, starting with a spare room or your old place. When you're a way, you could be sitting on an air b and be gold mine and not even knowing I stay in air, in these areas. So, while I really enjoy it is actually a terrific alternative. So hotels, especially I got beach vacations when my family will have to be able to have a house more space for ourselves. So big fan and it really is something that many of us could take advantage of as an economic opportunity. For example, if there's a big music festival or tournament come into your city, that's a perfect opportunity to get out of here

and avoid the traffic you can air being be your home and make a little extra money, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little bit more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think, find out much more air being be dot com, slash host Diana once an unwelcome back to the show, thanks happy to be here. I think it's about time we do kind of potatoes, mindfulness episode. We haven't done one in a minute and as you, and I both know, mindfulness has become over the last ten fifteen years. A very commonly used word almost like a buzz word. Often people don't in my opinion. Really know what they're talking about when they use the word. So let me just start with a really simple question, which is what is mindfulness glad you asked my definition though, and I liked he says: mindfulness is paying attention to our present moment. Experiences.

with openness, curiosity and a willingness to be without experience such really simple right. Not being lost in the past, not being lost in the future, about wing willing to be right here and now, with a certain quality of attention. You use Words are ready when you talk about the quality of attention, but can you to say a more about what the quad in our mind, should be in order for us to truly qualify for the status of being life. Yes, it is quality of openness and open to the experience. curious, not in the sense of oh. What's going on, I have to think about that sort of creates a lot of mental activity in rumination, but more just like really being with the direct experience I said so willingness to be with an asset, as so in a sometimes a language around my fulness, like non judgment all and I dont love,

as part of the definition, because I think we're judging all the time and then people think that if there judging than their not being mind fall, but we often make judgements right, so I changed that definition to more. Like can I be with what's here with this open, curious attention, so many people say it out loud or to themselves. I can't do this or their constantly asking themselves. I would put myself in this bucket. Am I doing it right? Am I doing it right, I'm my mindful right now, my meditating correctly et cetera, et cetera. So how do I know what he's is sort of yardstick I can use when a meditating we're going through my life. Whether I am in a state of bona fide mindfulness, yeah, You'Re- probably not doing right now. Is it such a good question right because it's very subjective and scientists, They can't there's not like a part of the brain that lights up when we're mindful right, so they can't say like this is the mindful

as part of the brain and therefore you are a hundred percent being mindful right now, it's all based on like correlate parts of the brain and also then, this objective report, so typically for people being mine, all doing it right. I tend to not dwell on like oh, when I meditating. Can I stay with my brass. Can I keep my attention on my breath for five seconds ten seconds twenty seconds? It starts a kind of tyres up and Not what I am interested in really is like how mindfulness affects our lives. So do You feel like you're relationships. I gotta do feel more connected are less reactive. These are signs of having done it right, but I think you're off asking the question, like exact moment. How do you know is that what you're asking us yeah, I think, once you do it again

right that sort of like it's an experience like even right now, as your listening, all of us are listening, we can just take a moment to feel our feet on the ground does. He feel your feet on the ground, maybe there's a heavy. The pressure, warmth and you're just noticing the direct experience in your curious here, oh Ben you're. With that experience and that's mindfulness, it's pretty basic. We can make it more complicated, but it's really this direct expense.

and and I'll add to that, that the more you meditate, especially if you go on retreat, you see how fast the mind is, moving and so type a modern perfectionists might be striving for some permanent state of mindfulness, but everything's moving really fast. So, even if you feel like you, ve got a few seconds of just feeling your feet, there's actually a bunch of stuff happening within that maybe thoughts that are really fast, that you didn't quite catch or other sensations, moving through a subtle aversion or zaire arising in relationship to whatever you're feeling? You know that the buddha said something like there. I dunno I'm going to mangle this, but something like a trillion mind moments every second. So there's a lot going on sorry to the buddha at all buddhist scholars. Sure, if fo message it up. But you get what data point too. So I guess what I'm trying to say is this a very basic

It also is a fleeting thing and it's a muscle that you can build over time. So is often said that the proximate cause for a moment of mindfulness is another One of my firmness, in other words, the more you spend in a state of mind where you can just feel the raw dad of sensations for your feet. The more you'll be able to do that going forward, ok, I just had a lot of words tumble out of my mouth, but dear resonate with any those. Where do they go wrong? You didn't go around There is a lot happening at any moment and I think when people look at what is happening in the brain, where they constantly filtering out thousands of data, some information, maybe that sort of what the buddha was getting out. But there is this capacity to focus our attention on something that is happening and even though there may, be, like you said, other little subtle, thoughts or distractions. In some way we can still attend to the present moment. We can still keep our attention there and

exactly what you said, the more we do it, the better we get at it in the beginning. It's like this idea, this concept. Ok, I have to be in the present moment, but once you start to do it over and over, becomes part of us. We begin to embody it, and then it gets easier and easier in your Newly reissued book. You talk a little bit about mindfulness as a trade and my from as a state. Can you untangle those two concepts? Yeah, it's interesting it. So it's like mindfulness can be a state that anybody can access right, which is like, if I say to all of you right now- and I was too I did this before- be mindful here's how to and then you can access the state of mind for us the tree of mindfulness, is the state over time can turn into a tree and it becomes kind of more like part of us and- are these research studies where they look at whether people have trade, mindfulness or state mindfulness, and the people who self defined

as having more mindfulness like it's a tree. They tend to you better and different mindfulness tests, because mindfulness is more like a part of them. I guess that's how he would think about it in a simple way. So how do we get there Do I have to meditate in order to have mindfulness as a trade wow everything takes practice so yeah I know that mindfulness is both cultivated through meditation and its quality. The attention we can have at any moment. So I know you That's just kind of reviewing this very listeners right that we can cultivate my fulness through the meditative practice, and then we can also have it throughout the day and either one of those is gonna work to build it as a trade right. So the rapid. She's in a daily practice. Overtime, building, more and more of the state of mindfulness will lead, to a longer term trade and the same with, if you are mindful in, the course of your day whether its brushing your teeth her before

you, yell at your child or whatever you do mindfulness is going to continue to images, you said earlier: you do it a little bit and it leads to more and more you mentioned before: yellow your child in a kind of leads me to a very basic question that I thought to ask him problem. Should have asked earlier, which is why why would I want to do this? What's the benefit so many different benefits to mindfulness and the science has looked at things like how it impacts stress, related conditions, physical health conditions, conditions like high blood pressure is impacted, stress, related conditions, things like boosting the immune, MR helping with the healing response building it. and Shan there's a lot of nice research looking at the impact of mindfulness on how our ability to attend can improve. So people with adhd can benefit. Mindfulness is helpful for working with difficulty most

emotional regulation so that some are related to what I said earlier so, where less reactive and more responsive to live. Even the science looks at ways that our brains change over time, as we do the pact so those are kind of like how I would answer it from a more scientific perspective from a more personal, active and having worked with thousands of students fur decades, I watch people's lives, improve mean it's incredible. How many people have said to me while, since I started meditating happened. I feel better, I'm kinder. Unless reactive, I have more sense well being more happiness, and these are all like the amazing amazing results of doing this practice over time. So if we need to practice, how do we get started because I think everybody knows either consciously or subconsciously that habit formation, ain't easy

in your book. You talk about four ingredients for a successful habit formation recipe. They are simple steps, supportive, environment motivation and repetition. I'm wondering if you could walk us through these four ingredients. Yes, so this simple, meaning. If are developing a habit. We don't want to pick something complex. Right. We don't want to like try to have this very you know high ideal that we're going to reach and it's gonna take a lot of these different steps to get there. So you want to keep it simple. just to jump on simplicity, avenues comport with everything that I, think I know about behavior change, which is starting small and growing from their. So, yes, that makes a lot of sense The second ingredient was having a supportive environment, yeah It's important rights, some of us. We don't have a lot of choice. About our environment and where he lives, we have lots of

sir, you know we're in a situation where that some feel so supportive, but finding a way to create some support, even within an environment that is not supported so light. Is there a space can always be your meditation space like maybe even just a chair in a corner of a room, maybe with a photograph, offer something that helps you got into the habit so having a way that we are supporting now. Ideally, a supportive space might also include things are going on retreats, which I know you talk about wait extensively or having friends community joining a meditation group, doing things online or in person. So those are all supportive environments and ways of supporting it. Next is motivation. Motivation and you gotta do it every this is. I think people are always like. I might have been I wanna be mindful, and then they just sort of dont practice. You ve got to prioritize mindfulness, and this is something that is actually it's not easy

Do so that motivation that prioritization the recognition of how important it is. One of the things that I do that helps me connect with my motivation is when I meditate I'll stop for a for a moment at the beginning and paws and contemplate like what is my motivation. Why do I practice? Because it helps me handle life better? We can, if I actually consciously review it, helps in that helps. Build motivation, yeah. I I like to say self I'm doing this, because it will make me happier which will benefit everybody around me, which will make me even happier and then up you go, and I do find that very useful. Finally, repetition yeah. Well, you can't just once remains the bank it so funny. I mean there's so much about my okay, ok, just be mindful just be mindful and people I try. I tried it. I tried mindfulness, there was grey ennoble habits happen through repetition, oh

and over, and that's where we see the change. That's what the brain science shows that sweat our own personal experiences, that as we do something over time we're gonna, say the results and soap that one sort of pretty intuitively off yes, but not easy to do Along those lines that question I get all the time and I'm sure you get it all the time too is when, should I meditate and for how long and the answer in my mind, is whatever is going to work in your life. I think there's some idea that yours to get up in the morning and meditate, but for everybody that doesn't work for some but they're not morning. People are there too busy. I know if I dont get up by a certain time, I'm just not in it right away. I'm not gonna meditate personally right away, because I have to get my daughter after school and in a million things happen in the morning, so morning may not be the right time. It's whatever will work for some people its before you go to bed for some people when you that home from work or school

some people's during the day. You know a lot of people will, if you have access to this, and not everybody does. But if you can close the door, you can listen to fantastic. ten percent happier- and you can do it in the middle of your day. You know: there's lots of options, but it's the one that you're going to do. That is the most important time to practice, amen or, as they say in buddhist circles, saw do wells You say in the book: mindfulness is like a nice bath. What do you by that its interest say you write a buck then it goes out into the world and then your thoughts and things change, and I'm not sure I would maybe say that today. But the intention was a kid a time for yourself this. I do agree with it. So much of our days spent in taking care everybody else and responsibilities and doing and performing and so forth and mindfulness is like when we go into a bath and it's just for ourselves

it's warm and comforting and is all but the only reason I might not say it so much these days is not everybody feels like it so warm bath and when they practice mindfulness, sometimes there's a lot difficult emotions that arise in. Oh, it's not always like superman, having a calming when you practice mindfulness and that's ok, that can be part of it? Yes, we sometimes it's a coldbath end, these two things to say about that. One is somehow you will think I sat down. I was all over the place, her difficult things came up, and so it must not be doing it right wrong. You are doing it right and there is so much benefit to the cold bath Because that junk is in their hands, do either you see it either you see it or you

see it and it owes you in the subconscious way, and so he those bad meditation sessions court. On quote, I think I can have a lot of both absolutely absolutely it's fine to meditate badly go for it, and yet I do think you know you've got people on the one end of the spectrum are like hockey. I can't do this thing and then sometimes I'll hear people on the other end of the spectrum and they're like yeah. You can't do it wrong, there's, no bad meditation. Actually, if sit down and are just affirmatively deciding to plan lunch I think that is not medicine. So I want to draw some boundaries here. I think that's accurate hey it's the trying its than making the effort that distinguishes it right and left hey you're sitting there in you're like a cat meditating- and I am now going to plan a robbery or something I would not put that in as a meditation but trying destroying like trying to combat

into the present moment. No matter how restless your mind gets, no matter how many times you think about everything under the sun, except maybe the present moment, if you're still making an effort to me that counts, yeah, yeah, absolutely so If what you are focusing on in the present moment is your breath. For example, you can be with a breath for nanosecond and then you're off for thirty minutes planning you're, amazon or whatever it is, then you wake up notice. What's happened, go back, the breath as long as you're doing that those are the bicep curls, free brain and just now, oh that as humiliating as it is to wake up after thirty minutes of veto, ex oh Jesus on this season, finale of white lotus? Is he s, humility, as that is it still. It right as long as you're making that effort exactly and that with an excellent show, arts of speaking

lotus, were watching people lounging on the beach with these various can be bikinis and looking fantastic, which of course, can create all sorts of. unpleasant comparisons in our own minds? One of the things you talk in the book. Is that meditation can help us relate to our bodies differently, This is not going to be an unfamiliar topic for women because I think just because of the way our culture is set up, Women are highly sensitized to their body. We met, I don't know if we identify with the discussion of obsessing over our bodies, and yet we're doing in the form of like bio, hacking and posting pictures of our ebbs and subscribing to these baroque diet that we go on and on about. You know when we're trying to just order lunch. So I do think this is a unisex all gender issue. So having said that, how can

illness, help yeah, it's so interesting. I you know I've been thinking a lot about it and I I know you had the course with Christy harrison and I love all the intuitive eating stuff and also am a big fan of we garden in Michael hobbs, with the maintenance phase or interfere into them at all. Michael hobbs, also hosts a show called if books could kill, which I've been enjoying he's. Really great so as, as have been in a learning, a lot about body issues and anti fat buyers. I've been thinking extra about what is the role that mindfulness has to play in the healing of this, because there is both our own internal personal body.

Image issues. And then the way is a manifest since both implicit bias in an explicit anti fat by us- and we did a research study a few years ago, where we created a for weak protocol of mindfulness and self compassion for body image and what the question was was: if pupils body image improve witted impact there implicit bias- and so what happened was it was kind of cool, because I had to take mindfulness and create four hours worth of mindfulness and soft compassion jam packed into this one course for people and so people went through it, and then we looked at these issues and what we found was. It did improves their body image. So there was some statistical training. This was a small pilot study. I think only like about three people went through it, so it did improve their body image, but it had no effect on their implicit bias or their attitudes and views towards other p.

well now, when I thought about it, I was like yeah, I'm not surprised, because just because I'm starting to feel better doesn't naturally mean that I'm going to be kinder towards other people in relation to body image. I think there's like a huge amount of education, that's needed and understanding. So my next question you know and I'm talking with reason, just for janet tommy alma at usc, allay where I work. So I think a lot about like what is it take when I see, for instance, some hatred towards my body arise, and so I'm in my mid fifty Then suddenly, my boy, you changed, you know in it and it was likely what just happened right and I can see these voices come up in here. I've been meditating for thirty years and I notice like self judging voices, oh body, didn't look like that before her. Whenever it is right, so I've had to be like theory

very hard core about my mindfulness practice around noticing the voices and analysis? I guess going back to your question. It's like mindfulness can help us to see the voices were may arise to now get caught in them, not take them so personally and then applying self come. Passion in the moment. Those are like the three pieces that I personally have had to work on and one that I actually just very interested in how mindfulness world can bring some healing to these larger picture issue. So anyway, you can't me on a thing, that's interesting to me. I love it, keep going, no don't edit yourself, so it's mine for the self compassion and what that can be used for in any given moment if were suffering around how we look here I mean what I said it's a minute ago was not taking it so personally, but that sort of embedded into the mindfulness, but it's identifying the voice noticing that it's a voice, that's coming and going and not taking it so personally and then self compassion, but

I will add another piece while I'm at, which is what I sometimes call enlisting the wisdom, mind and listen. The wisdom, minders psych, when you have level of awareness? It allows that part of you that has some wisdom to can so when you're lost in like judging yourself. Oh my god, I hate my body it. So why is this? Why is it that there is not a capacity for wisdom, but when there's this moment of mindfulness psych, oh wow, there's judging going on there I'm really judging myself, and then the wisdom mind. As you know, we could call a positive self talk or whatever, but this part of us can come and say like hey has, I am is ok, you know our body are always changing or whatever might be wise to help us com.

And re regulate and come to a place of more ease and then combining that with the compassion, peace, the like oh, I know this is painful. Not only do you feel spot like millions and millions of people feel this way in this moment or whatever it is that about compassion for you or hey sweetheart. You know, sometimes I put my hand on my chest and they d say like: oh, you know you'll get through this. These are ways that we can apply on this on the spot and obviously we're talking about body image, but it could be with any difficult thought or emotion. Yeah. Maybe I struggle with sweetheart that word doesn't work for me so much, but be the worse for you, I heartily recommend it, and what I get very excited about here is this notion and I guess I would and youtube correct me if I'm wrong here. I was kind of lump all of this under self compassion, but this notion that you can rewire your inner dialogue, because

so often I'm just being such a dick to myself, and if I can consciously in a kind of muscular way, do it you're, describing as in the wisdom mind to talk to myself the way I would talk to friend or my son. In a moment like that, I found that to be phenomenally helpful yeah absolutely absolutely- and it is all part of self I mean- depends how you define it. It's this mindfulness tool, self compassion tools, they're all kind of one, but like kristin nafs work and chris germer, who brought us mindful self compassion mean they defined the three components of that as mindfulness compassion directed towards yourself or kindness towards yourself and a recognition of our shared humanity right. Those are the three pieces of their program and I I often take that and I sort of play with it a little bit, because I also thing

I mean, the mindfulness can be really fell down its mindfulness just to have a kind of self regulation, a baseline, but also the exactly talking about- and I like that use the word muscular like we gotta work at it, because those voices are deep there in tat. They don't shut up great and we have to be on it. Very persistent very rigorous, like oh there's that voice and not believing that voice that voice. That says, I'm not good enough or there's something wrong, with me or I'm not worthy boom. Fifty by oh there's that voice interesting, many. Many years ago, a friend of mine was on a retreat and she was having all of this self hatred. Voices come up and it was going on endlessly and she was doing walking meditation outside and there was this little chipmunk down by her and she kind of lean down to touch the chipmunk and the chip monk ran away, and this voice in her head said I'm so awful. Even the chipmunks hate me and

She she just just feeling terrible and she went to see her teacher who, I believe, may have been Joseph at the time and Joseph said how's it going. She said terribly, I'm such a bad person, even the chipmunks hate me and Joseph said. Even the chipmunks hate me the skies blue and she saw in that moment that it was neutral. I was just a phrase. It was a thought and she didn't have to buy into that thought and believed that thought, and so every time she noticed self hatred voices come up. She would say: oh and such a jerk, even the chipmunks hate me, the sky is blue and then

we were just laugh, yes, you know, and she taught it to me and I started doing it and I started laughing and it just it. It's like these are the tools, the mindfulness tools that help us see our humanity and find a place of these. So I'm going to do a yes and to your story. I love the story about Joseph Goldstein and another. One of his recommendations when people are dealing with self judgment is to recommend that you count the number of self judgmental thoughts, because by the time you get to two fifty in an afternoon? You're just gonna see how ridiculous it is ridiculous by the way is a word. He uses a lot because it really cuts through this proclivity. We all have for identifying with the thoughts and our head thinking that their true, but actually, if you can get to the view of ridiculous now, which is not necessarily a word that the buddha used you you another route? This sense that oh yeah, this thinking is true when I meet take it seriously

That's the yes! The end is, you know, onwards, read the way Joseph another meditation teachers talk about. Mindfulness is seen just seeing the ridiculous now seeing the impersonality, seeing through this concretization that we tend to do around our thoughts where I think things get even more interesting, is with muscular rarity that I described before they. U echoed which is you can see your thoughts, your criticism of your body. If or any other difficult thought you might be having can see them. That's one step, but you can also respond wise inside your own head. You don't even need to go to a Joseph war to a friend, although that's great,

you. Can in list the wisdom mind in this muscular way to rebut absolutely, but you have to finance that. I think, because what can happen is we can start a judge ourselves for judging right, so ok, I'm a jerk and then that space cuss wait. Judging workers is helpful to actually say the word, judging right or self judgment, something so that's a tool we teach in the mind of this world Help us recognise the thought that we're having so we can say that were judging and then we may at that point wanted just be careful that we don't start like how do you say in judging out judging I'm such a jerk and judging myself. First thinking, I'm a jerk grow. It takes like, I said the little bit of financing here and then this space further. wisdom, mind to emerge. It needs to be like just don't: try to heart

This is what I'm saying like I'd better say something that's going to help me. You know we don't want to get caught in that. We just want to be like who charging you'll be? Okay, I'll, be okay, hey! It's not true. Is this true? Sometimes one of the things I love for people to do with the wisdom mine is to ask themselves questions like is this true? Is this really true? How do you know it's true, you know, and once we start to investigate we go out. Am I really the worst person in the world? I dunno probably not coming up Diana winston talks about how to stop self judgment spirals, which I sometimes like to call the toilet vortex and how creating a top ten list can help you deal with def thoughts. You can host the best backyard barbecue. You find a professional on angie to make your backyard the best around

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did the canopy early and add free, I'm wondering class to go back to the first point you are making is idea that we judge ourselves for judging you know one of the tools that life on this teachers, including yourself often use with their students, is the making of mental notes or labeling. So whatever is coming up in the mind, it's like the skilful use of thinking to help us not be so attached to wherever it happening in the mind, so you might wake up after fifteen minutes of rating yourself and just add a nice soft little mental note. In the mind of judging, but that mental note, which is meant to help you distance yourself can be delivered, and there can be a tone to that note that is suffused with aversion. Oh my god, I can't believe I'm doing this again,

me. I think that was a huge problem in my mindfulness practice until I started doing high dose loving kindness programmes, which is often taught in buddha circles as a complimentary practice, worrier envisioning a series of beings and systematically sending phrases like may be happy healthy, safe I live with these and I've said this a million times ally. I didn't have a positive reaction to the practice at first, but once I got over myself and started doing it once I heard people say things to me like: if you can't be cheesy, you can't be free. I started to do this stuff and I found that having da mayor inner, whether a help me get or more genuine version of my fulness, where I wasn't the machinations of my mind with gritted teeth. I was actually seeing them with some level of activity and that's the beauty of the past does and a lot of people do have had experience with mindfulness like there's a certain level of discovery.

Connected to the mindfulness that they don't even see. I have to do this right, Erlich be mindful, you know it it's kind of embedded in there and they don't notice it and then, when we add the loving kindness there's like a relief, I, like I love the collie, the balmy inner, whether that you decide the next god I'm working on his loving kindness, I figure there's like a thousand mindfulness books, but there is actually not that many of us here riding one too. I hope yours doesn't come up before mine probably will, though, cause mine is taking forever and I dunno I haven't even started yeah speaking of dealing with difficult thoughts and using mindfulness to help with those you have this concept. You talk about in the book, the top ten. What's that all about, so many think that the top ten We think about, like the top ten music, all heads of the weak or the month, we tend to have a top ten places. We go to like judgment, anxiety, depressive thoughts

of comparison like we all have a list of one state we can identify, and so it's interesting is to start identify them. to really begin to go. Oh well. What are they? What are the places that my mind gets caught and the reason that I say that is because the more we can understand ourselves, the better things are going to be in one. Like we can say like. Ok, there is my old friend judgment here Once again, I know you, I see do. I know you're part of my top ten and I don't have to tickets. So personally, something that you said earlier reminded me of many years I was on a meditation retreat and I kept having judgment if I slept too late, though I would wake up and I'd look at my alarm and if I made it to the early setting- and I was right on time- I would be fine, but if I said

I through my alarm this voice would come up in my head and go you jerk, you're, so lazy. I can't believe you're done, you know I'm just judging judging judging and this went on for days and days and days certain along like several month retreat and one morning I woke up. Tat my alarm and saw that I saw at first hand this voice in my head goes here, comes and then the next thing that happened was used are you slept there you're alarm boom and then I just started laughing, because I could see that's like pernicious habitual judgment that, is a rising. It was one of my top ten. You know it was like judging myself for being late, they re, and there were but I knew was coming and my relationship to its shifted and after that it stopped coming with any kind of ferocity like there much more ease and humor about it like up here. It is so that's one of the benefits. So really, knowing yourself and your mental habits, I told

the value of having a top ten, and you know doing a taxonomy of neuroses hidden being able to call them out and see the ridiculousness and yet a question. I've often asked teachers, and I often hear from folks I meet and you probably hear a million times as well aren't some of these thoughts, sometimes true hm. Yes, it's such a good question such an important question, so people often ask a variation on this question like, but if I don't notice what's wrong with me, how I ever change or get better you know, so there can be true to something, but it's the quality with which we were and are solved the problem that we need to look at and so a few sleep, through an alarm and you go slept through an alarm. I really need to do better tomorrow. That's one thing, but if you sleep to your allowing a guy you jerk you're so lazy. Why do it that's the problem? So it's really that call.

A version, these layers of fighting with ourselves and hating ourselves. For these things, that's the problem. So, of course we want to see places where we can improve. There may be some truth. in it, and I think it's important to acknowledge the truth and that we do, and I like change and act in kinder about her ways in the world. Let's talk about using my phone us to work with pain, physical pain, one of these dark one in the book as an ice cube exercise was that about yes, who, as some of you listeners may know this, but when mindfulness was first brought into more secular contacts out of the biggest contacts it was. John Cabot's ended a lot of work in bringing my fullest specifically to work with chronic pain, patience, and this was in the seventies, actually evolved a resource that out there the most robust researches around chronic pain, because it saw oldest research that surround that people have done, and there is great studies.

showing that mindfulness helps people with chronic pain and the reason why it so helpful is and will there's a couple of different things that happen. So when pain is happening, people tend to think a lot of things of perceval. It feels, overwhelming like it's, this giant thing that's happening, and I don't know what I'm gonna do. That's one thing that's happening for people. The second is we're making up stories about it, No I'm in pain. That's it's gonna! Last forever. What do I do? What happens if it never ends up this whole set of stories, so we teach people two things with pain, one is to notice that It is not monolithic great. It's not all one thing: it's burning and stabbing entangling it's moving its attenuating, its increasing its decreasing. We can start to see that and then the second thing is that we see the stories we have connected to right. We noticed story, worrying fear and so forth. So the ice cube exercises size that I think I might have stolen

adapted from Lamar's child childbirth, but it's an exercise that we do maps programmes. So it you see a way. We have a six week, mindfulness program called maps, mindful awareness practices and the third week is all about pain and you hold an ice cube and, as you hold the ice cube in your hand, and we really encourage people like this is not a macho thing like you have to hold it as long as possible, but it's really about noticing openness, curiosity and willingness to deal with what is so. You put the ice cuban hand and you notice the sensations others tingling they're, starting its growing up my arm its its increasing its decreasing. Oh, it's nothing! Actually, it's decreasing right, so we're having the experience of it and then we're also looking at stories: is there a part of her mind worrying that there's something wrong? Is there a purpose enjoying it? Is there you know? So we start to see all of the principles that I just talked about through this ice cube exercise

and this is whether we want to do with an ice cube or not. This is just so useful because pain is inevitable and. if we can bring mindfulness to it? We don't need to do as much suffering. That's the idea, and it does work. I mean the science is pretty good about the site. It does give people a tour think what this shows is that for people with chronic pain with mind on this practice hence can reduce, but, more importantly, the quality of life improves across the board like people's ability to tolerate their pain, even in the midst of difficult physical sensations, that's kind of interesting to see, even if you're still in pain, you are happier basically Riah mean it seems to be the same mechanism as well.

It difficult thoughts are difficult emotions. It's like he can see, what's happening without getting as caught up the train. Yeah there's space, there's distance, there's ease yeah, exactly in your book. You and your co author say that you, you too, sought to strike a balance between science or reason, and then art or intuition and saw I'm curious, but this word into wish it. What do you mean by that? I co author was big on intuition and she's. A kind of interesting case story because she was ass, genetics, researcher, very serious scientists for many years who had no interest in this issue smaller. in He thing one might consider WU wu or spiritual or anything like that, and then she had a cancer scare and she starts.

Trying different things like meditation and she changed her diet and she got very involved with artistic practices and and yoga and all these things. So that was one part of the healing process for her and she discovered that she had been like really wed to her scientific world view and once she began to meditate, do these other I think she began to open more to an intuitive place re and come more in contact with that. So for her, it's like a very important way of thinking about what mindfulness, how it can really enhance your life, and your experience For me when I think about intuition what I've noticed is as people practice, and this is but it's from working with thousands. Thousands of people over the years is that people began to have more access to their intuition. So let me just say what it is in my mind

to wish is like a deeper knowing and knowing that's, not like a cognitive. What your head tells you what you read in a book, but it's on the second embodied knowing coming from within us and from a deep place and we can access it because one we start to be able to distinguish the charter and the noise from what's real right. So they're, like the hundreds of things in her head saying this is, problem and what's wrong with me above all by and then there's this one part of me that says I know I'll get through this, and some part of us feels like that's right for me when I feel my intuition. It's like, I feel something in my body had sons, weird but like a cork in my belly like yes, and I think that its years- a practice that has helped me to access that- and I find that, like I said with the students

people feel more intuitive, more a tune to their bodies and mines in a way that they weren't before they start practicing in atlanta. For me to a mythic, the me of ten fifteen years ago would have been like what the hell are you talking about. You know meditation teachers often use the word. art which you know has always been a little bit annoying for me much more so back in the day than it is now, but it's a little off putting it's like why he was talking about your heart. It sounds very hull marcie, but over time I've come to realise its is basically what you're describing its intuition. It's why we have expressions like. I know something of my bones: or my gut and my viscera molecules it's a sob into

actual knowing that can be really profound and often hard to discern, if you're so caught in the swirling stories of the ego, and you have no distance from the said stories. Yeah I mean that's how I think of it as well. So is there a connection between intuition and happiness and if so, what is happiness? One of the things that I have noticed is there's a relationship between intuition and happiness in that intuition puts us in touch with ourselves and what does that ultimately lead to which is often to city, and I feel like I've intensity, is deeply connected to happiness, and that's one of the things that I find students report like I'm. I feel more real, more authentic, more connected, more able to connect to others, which is a part of what creates happiness. I mean there's so much research showing that not being an ice elation creates happiness is so I think, as we have more act,

two intuition we become more real, more authentic and also this is an interesting thing, and that's just like my conjecture, but with my phone us practice. We take things less personally, so we're like more able to it if one were wrong were more able to see our staff because its about me me me, and I think that that leads to again more often the city, more ability to connect and better connections, more joy and happiness. So once for not taking arrigo ego is seriously this. Never ending stream of discursive thought once we're not confused in things, that all of our thinking is who we are and definitively true. Then it's not big of a deal when somebody says hey, you know you are kind of an asshole last night and you can be like yeah gimmick and maybe it was and that lack of defensiveness.

He is a kind of real nets, are authenticity, because what is real and authentic is that you can't find some cord nugget of diana somewhere between your ears right and that makes us happier improves our relationships, which then turned makes us even happier. I know I am describing this road manner. I think you re think here and sadly I see that I see that in myself I say that in my students- and it's likely take ourselves much less seriously. I think, before practice for a lot of people there's this real, like reification, like niemi, am so important, so important, and now it's just like there are things that I do that I I you know I screw up, I'm imperfect and that's okay, and I don't judge myself for that. I just might have like a judgment for a moment. But then I ll go and then I laugh and going others that judgment arising just more love and acceptance more compassion for myself, and that leads to

two more willingness to be real. You like really shop and say what's happening and there's nothing to hide because there's not like a like. You said A nugget of me that I'm trying to protect I'm here, I'm here for you the does, and how does that relate to happiness and meda? I think I intuitively see it that's a happier state, but I guess what I'm really trying to get at is. How do we define happiness? I mean to me happiness event like the happiness of I got a new such and such a new car. Something right, like I dont, tend to think of happiness. Tat way, I think, of happiness more as like a deep acceptance of life and and others sand purpose send meaning and a sense of profound connected ness to both my of others, the greater world like those are the elements of happiness and affects a definition of happiness. But there are elements of what creates happiness.

So when I wanna be connected- and that's like us out, a lot of the research shows that people who have friendships are happier than people or isolated and lonely you know. So how do we create connection by being often and showing up in being a real soft with another person? So I think there's a lot of links. We could make coming up diana talks about the link between intuition authenticity and happiness and the ripple effects of practicing meditation. We think of sport stories. We tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory, but the new podcast sports explains the world. Brings you some of the wildest and most surprising sport stories. You ve never heard take that Major wrote, the Wikipedia page that got a young athlete signs to a million dollar deal or a tennis proof

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other people. I mean that really is my mind like one of the principal goals, if not the most important goal, and that makes us even beer and it makes the other people even happier. So there is this way in which this is both an individual and team pursuit absolutely and it also impacts the institutions that we are part of a neighbour and communities and the large our world, you know so it if we have some time transformation and then that impacts are family and our relationships and that ripples out apples out, and I have to think that what we're doing here, what you're doing with ten percent happier where the work of meditation teacher does is soft transformation in the spirit of world transformation in. I was a political activists for a long time in me in my youth and when I switched over from doing direct activism to doing the work of teaching mindfulness within the secular contacts at first, I felt

Oh, have I betrayed this value of trying to make the world a better place Then I realized that know. What I'm trying to do is like actually profoundly transform institutions and create cultural change, that we have more and more individuals who live from a place of authentic city and kindness and compassion and awareness and the more of us, there are the better this world is going to be, and so I think that the happiness is both personal happiness, relational happiness and and really global happiness. We can think of it that way, hard to find a more big picture sentiment on which to end the inner before I let you go, though you have this afterward to your recently reissued book, in which you talk about some new developments in the field of life on this in the science. What are the headlines from that? Yes,

so basically, the amount of research has increased about five times. There is better ease those more nedda analyses kind like reviewing all the studies, but the science is still kind of the same, their stalls what to do and more and more keeps arising in its bid. Fantastic to see what's happening in the scientific field and in the mindfulness fields? I think I talked about some of the concerns inside cower. We careful around issues of cultural appropriation and meditation becoming a billionaire our industry and the role of ethics in the way that my phone, this is being disseminated, but also some of them incredible things that are happening like the way at my fulness is being brought into so many different sectors of society in turn medical and mental health and in two the in higher, add, and I mean just business world like him.

is saying way in which mindfulness is showing up, and how do we ensure it's growth so that the teachers are well trained and that it grows in a way that keeps aware of the dive it concerns and really is done in an ethical way filled with lots of integrity. Well elements your couple follow questions are on the science. I know that your carter handled that, but that you can also talk about it. So let me ask you, I think sometimes- and you know we all- have different information. Silos in which we exist, but in mine there are all these studies they come All the time extolling the virtue of mindfulness nino, as it pertains to almost any aspect of the human condition, and then every once in a while there's a headline above like oh, the sum studied, you showed that mindfulness isn't all its cracked up to be in. Maybe all this is just hype. What's the de l b are on that science is, my phone is good for your, not yes, it is there's a lot of positive results at their funding with the science.

for this, and there is a long way to go so that thing is we don't want to help the research? This is wrong, really really important. It's not going to solve all our problems, it's not a panacea and there's so much to be, an larger sample size, better controls. Longitudinal study, I mean like there's just there's, just countless amount of work that needs to happen, and it's still really positive, like lots of good studies, but sometimes the ones that I think, are like so great because yahoo news picks it up or something you actually have to look closely like read. I guess that's what I would say to your listeners. Read the study, actually don't just buy the headlines read. Study? My favorite one was one that said: mindfulness reduces depression assistance. I haven't mindfulness refuges depressed in an belly fat and as like hm okay. So

It was like a tiny little study looking at the relate anyway whatever, but so just just it's a caution of caution when looking at it like like yea, it's wonderful, but also there's a lot more to be done. So my second follow up about this marvellous becoming a billion dollar industry. It's actually a multi billion dollar industry. I am adaptation. I don't owe mindfulness exactly that meditation there enough yeah right, because those are two related but distinct terms. You know I can think of two meditation apps, neither of them the one I'm with that, are, I believe, valued in multi billion. So this is a multi billion dollar industry and I have a dog This fight, I'm totally biased on this My opinion is that that's actually, okay, we live in a capitalist society and if you can use the capitalist system to get these practices out and scale them

way that helps even more people than that is generally good, although not without dangers in, and you need to be careful as you're doing it. What say you on that tip am I agree that there's countless people whose lives have been transformed, because at the voices at these big apps and all the other ways in which mindfulness has made an impact and come out into the mainstream. her, but I agree that also needs to be really really care fall and monitored. And you know I've been part of creating an accreditation board, so that teacher ears are certified. I mean like there's just a lot of things. We need to put in place to make sure that the rampant growth doesn't go towards harmful in some way right and then I also question: who is the money going to have this Billy

dollar business. I dont know a lot of like wealthy mindfulness teachers, so the question is: who is the one? That's making all the money you from this and I'm just curious about that question. So the more I know about business, which is to say not lot debt eat a company like com or head space or at a much smaller level. happier, there's a lot of revenue, and then you come up with the value of the company by you know, assigning some multiple of revenue. So if you're coming earning a million dollars a year. You might say: well, oh, it's worth five or ten for sale, so some of these companies are worth way more than that. You know in the billions so there's a lot of revenue, and that means that they're are technically worth a lot of money, but that revenue is going right back into running the business exactly. But it's not necessarily that there's some fat cat in a smoke right now is getting all the money. It's just telling you the machinery of the company yeah, but let me make a point to add to what I was going to say

is that one of the things that I've been doing for a decade is training mindfulness teachers and helping to create the field of what it means. make a living as mindfulness teacher and it's not easy in other, some of them who are in corporate settings who are making a living, but a lot people are doing it as labors of love or as just like, aside gag or something, and- I would also have to see some of that multi billion method is going to support the like generation. I have new wonderful mindfulness teachers who are out there and need to be supported. The agreed before I let you go, though, can you do your mind ever b of the name of this new old book and all the other books you written and anything else putting out into the world or doing that. You think we should know about showing a guy said that turkey is fully present the science, art and practice mindfulness co, written with sue smaller, which was published first,

ten years ago, and now we have a second edition- that's come out with a new afterward updating some of the science and just about them. I will miss, feel I've. Also in the little book of being practices and guidance from cover your natural awareness. I have, of course, are not caught glimpses of being. That's like me audio book and then wide awake, a buddhist guide for teens, which I wrote twenty years ago, I'm gonna have data because there's nothing about technique three and a half years ago, and now my daughter's a team, so I figure it's time and then so can find me, though my full awareness research centre. At you see, I lay in that's, you silly helped dot org flash mark where, at my website, Diana winston dot, org and I teach classes and retreats and programmes and all sorts of things and happy to be in touch.

Thank you very much for coming back on the show. Diana was great to see so fund to be here with you thanks again to Diana Winston. Thank you. Do you for listening? Couldn't really just wouldn't do it without you If you want do me, a solid go, give us a rating or review on whatever podcast player. You use that actually really helps. Also don't forget to check out the new stuff. I've been posting on instagram tik tok, you some feedback on that as well most of all, though, to everybody who worked so hard on this show, ten percent happier is produced by gabrielle sacrament, justine, davy, Lauren smith and terror. Anderson DJ cashmeres, our senior producer, moorish snyder men, is our senior editor and can be regular. Is our executive producer scoring and mixing by peter adventure of ultraviolet audio and nick thorburn from the awesome band islands wrote. Our theme will see you all on monday for a brand new episode. We're going to talk about the scandinavian concept of free lifts leave can't believe I can answer that correctly

tell you what it is coming up on. One April members you can listen to, ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music down though the amazon music app today or you can listen early and ad free with one re plus in apple podcasts before you go. Do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wonder: ea, dot, com, slash survey.