If you meditate (or do yoga, for that matter), you may have been taught by a Westerner, but you owe a gigantic debt of gratitude to the giants and geniuses in Asia who developed these practices. This fact can be overlooked or downplayed -- intentionally or otherwise -- by Western practitioners, including, sometimes, me. However, in the midst of a spike of anti-Asian violence, now seems like a very good time to learn more about where these practices came from, and why many Asian-American Buddhists sometimes feel erased. Not only is this the right thing to do, but it can also add depth and perspective and freshness to your practice. In this episode, we have two fascinating guests who will talk about what it’s been like for them to be Asian American Buddhists in the midst of this spate of hate crimes, and walk us through the long and ugly history of anti-Buddhist violence in America. We also talk about: how all meditators (not just people in vulnerable communities) can learn resiliency through meditation; the connection between karma and reparations; and whether it’s possible, or advisable, to generate goodwill towards people who hate you. We also have a frank conversation about how some of my own messaging about Buddhism in America has missed the mark.
My guests are: Chenxing Han, who is the author of Be the Refuge: Raising the Voices of Asian American Buddhists. She holds a BA from Stanford and an MA in Buddhist Studies from the Graduate Theological Union. And, Duncan Ryūken Williams, who is the author of American Sutra: A Story of Faith and Freedom in the Second World War. He has a B.A. in Religious Studies from Reed and a Ph.D. in Religion from Harvard. He is currently a professor at the University of Southern California. He’s also a Zen priest. Both Duncan and Chenxing are helping to organize a national ceremony -- which will take place the day after we post this interview -- on the 49-day anniversary of the Atlanta spa shootings that took the lives of several Asians and Asian-Americans. (For more on that ceremony, click here: https://www.maywegather.org/)
One thing to say before we dive in: we are dedicating this whole week to the spike in hate crimes against members of the AAPI community. On Wednesday, we’ll talk to Mushim Ikeda, a Buddhist teacher, about how all of us can use meditation to deal with anger, uncertainty, and self-loathing.
And two more items of business: first, are you interested in teaching mindfulness to teens? Looking to carve your own path and share this practice in a way that feels real, authentic, and relevant in today’s world? Our friends at iBme are accepting applications for their Mindfulness Teacher Training program - catered towards working with teens and young adults. The last round of applications are due May 15th and scholarships are available. For more information and to apply, check out: https://ibme.com/mindfulness-teacher-training/
And second, we want to deeply thank and recognize mental health professionals for your support. For a year's FREE access to the app and hundreds of meditations and resources visit: https://www.tenpercent.com/mentalhealth
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/chenxing-han-duncan-ryuken-williams-343
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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conditions, apply. For maybe sake. This is the ten percent happier pot cast iron dan Harris if you meditate or if you do yoga for that better, you may have been taught by a westerner, but you owe a gigantic debt of gratitude to the giants and genius is over
in asia who developed these practices in the first place, this fact can be overlooked or downplayed intention,
we or otherwise by some western practitioners, including sometimes by me,
However, in the midst of a spike of anti asian violence, now seems like a really good time to learn more about where these practices came from, and why many
asian american buddhists sometimes feel erased. Not only is this the right thing to do, but it can also add depth and perspective and freshness to your practice. So in this episode we ve got to fascinatingest
Who will talk about what has been like for them to be asian american buddhists? In the midst of this state of hate crimes?
and walk us through the long and ugly history of anti buddhist violence in america. We also talk about how all meditated, not just people and vulnerable communities, can learn resiliency through the practice of metal
asian the connection between karma and reparations and whether it
possible or even advisable to generate goodwill towards people who hate you. Oh, we also have a frank conversation about how some of my own message
about buddhism and america may have missed the mark. My guests are chancing han with the author of b, the refuge raising the voices of asian american buddhists shield.
Ba from Stanford university at an m. A in buddhist studies from the graduate theological union and my other guests is duncan
Do you can Williams? Who is the author of american sutra story of faith and freedom?
second world war. He has a ba and religious studies from red and a phd in religion from harvard he's. Currently, a professor at the university of southern california is also as an priest, both chow.
seeing and duncan, are helping to organise a national ceremony which will take place the day after we post this interview on the forty
day anniversary of the atlanta spot shootings that took the lives of several asians
an asian americans and we're gonna puts more information on that event in the show notes, one thing:
say before we die, then we are dedicating this entire week to the spike in hate crimes against members of the eight a p I community on Wednesday, we're in a talk to machine Ikeda, a buddhist teacher about how all of us can use meditation to deal with anger on sir
de and self loathing. Ok, here we go now we ve cleansing and duncan ok cleansing harm and
duncan deal can williams. Thank you both for common on. Thank you get to meet with you in here. It's an honor
closing. Let me start with you to stay
the blazing the obvious. This has been a dumpster fire of the last year or so, and I think it might be helpful for our listeners to get a sense from both
view, but, starting with you changing about how this time has been for you, as we've seen, this uptick in hate crimes
yeah. Well, I came back from Bangkok, actually a mark twain,
honey, so my partner and I were based in southeast asia for much of the last presidency. We came back from
in cancun march, twenty twenty four, what we thought would be a month on visit? Obviously we have.
left the bay area, since
and what I remember was when I flew in one of my friends in Bangkok, texted saying, and I really hope you stay safe, both from the virus and the racism
and it was that was my welcome back to america, and so it's been alight a lot to take in the news, in particular that kind of feeling of just an endless stream of reports on verbal violence. Physical assaults on asian american put us in a sense of that.
The leading as well when we read accounts of things that really had come further
but his community in particular, when you know when we charge at an epoch, tea was assaulted and killed
going on a morning lack in san francisco and when our but his temple is in seven com
Finally, I have been vandalized and I reckon they have so much privilege that I have been able to Stacy.
At home to work from home, but still they kind of psychological effects of hearing this kind of news day in and day out is really have
and since I have launched my book in may january and speaking with a lot of different communities
putting a lot of asian americans. I notice that that kind of fear the grief, the anger just all of these different pocket emotions that are really being stood up and, of course, people who are also very directly affected friends who have been affected by this kind of violence so
so I have to say their fight for myself. I can feel that in my body, and I can feel that in the way,
that. I can always listen to the news
day in and day out, because it can be quite dramatic for people duncan about, for you sure I think,
in terms of the last year. The kind of pandemic year have one of the things that I went through on a personal basis was that I became a u s. Citizen last june, after through
three years of being in the united states on different legal statuses and visas and so forth. I kind of gave up my japanese nationality and took the plunge into
becoming a. U s. Citizen and I happened on june thirteenth last year in the
ro, courthouse in downtown los angeles and is therefore a day when black lies and protests.
Were our happening right around city hall and did
it made me think about this time, what it means to be an american. I went in my buddhist robes to do the same.
And for me, as a kind of important way of like affirming religious freedom and the constitution, as we
but that also I did in my robes
as a way of kind of saying I going defend this constitution, and these p protesters outside are also trying to do the same thing in terms of equality
and the law of religious freedom, all those aspirations that don't make us american. So I think it's in that context. I often think about lay come, what's been happening to a group of people
Jesse meant mentioned. You know, he's an american people, I think, for a long time, buddhist people for a long time have been facing these acts of exclusion and animals and violence, and so
it. I think I just cause on us whether, where new setting,
andorra, have been citizens
a long time
what it means when a certain faith group is kind of told you you don't belong you not like you're on american war, if you're, so nothing disease told.
now that you're either on what now welcome or second class it on a kind of almost like
citizen asian american. We talk about like perpetual foreigner like people, always you can be here for five six generations and put his temples have been around since the nineteenth century and still being told you all go back home. You cause of current european of that kind of language. I think
is that the type of thing that's been a little bit distressing and really raises the question of who will
in america and and and and who are we as citizens, and what do we need to do to find our place here? This country, to be told, go back home when you are home, has to be
I can only guess at the death of a sense of dislocation and alienation they will engender whom I saw in it, and it's been something that
isn't just now do so, I think, in terms of last year. Yes, there was an uptake and, as such
bob kind of blame did on the politics of our time, but I think those was
longer memories of what.
the asian, american and asian american buddhists experiences is that these are cyclical things that do have ways of
rises up periods where the animals and the exclusion and the violence gets intensified in certain moments. But I think that
message of you don't belong when it's done, multi generationally.
I think asian american communities and buddhists have had taken inherit that call
ama. You know what I mean like there's a kind of like a hurt that then gets into generationally transmitted over time, and these are the type of thing said if we are to truly heal as a nation, we have to start addressing a lot of this stuff, not just in this kind of like political moment, but in this longer question of what is america and where
do people like asia, american buddhists, fit into it, and I would maybe at that. I think the pain that Duncan
talking about, I think, really got surfaced in profound national.
No really international way after the atlantic area shootings. So I think there is both this moment
this kind of reckoning evasion, americans feeling just the grief over that shooting in those eight lives. Last
six of whom, where women of asian heritage and one of whom we know
a korean buddhist and soldiers
it is a reminder I think for so many of us. We remember the moments in our lives where we ve thought excluded, where we felt in pain and fear of eraser or worse,
In so doing, one of the things said the cheating and I are both working on. Creating is a buddhist memorial service on the forty nice day of that incident in it in other atlanta shootings in many buddhist traditions. As you know, for the forty nine days at a time when we believe that
the deceased peoples can a transition to a different role and ass. She was saying somehow the atlanta shooting, despite thousands of other cases, of incidents.
range from rubble, harassment, ted, violent beatings to even that have occurred somehow that I think in the same,
that George floyd mobilized, the african american community, as well as a nation. I think atlanta has mobilized
american community, as well as a nation to kind of takes stock of where we are, and so it's on that basis that we are trying to create this forty nice day, memorial,
service as a kind of national day of remembering this history of people have come before us. Our ancestors
asian or american buddhists and others in color
member. Not only those who died in Atlanta bed
there's just so many other set there
feel we need to honour. Remember you ve both written books, and I want to talk about both of those books, but I think it might might make sense duncan dish.
To dig in a little bit on on your work first, because it provides a historical context. You have used a phrase several times in your utterances, thus far in this. At that point, brief interview and the phrase a long time has come up a bunch of times in conversation from your side, and I think it's worth that putting some meat on the bone there for folks who take to help us understand. What does this look? Like
the discrimination against asian americans and, in particular buddhist americans sure you doin. It is a way in which I I've been noticing how it's done
constellation of where race and religion meet. That often is used as these kind of measures of exclusion and so
By long time I mean like when the first chinese immigrants came to the united states
it's just like any other and in seeking opportunity in all places like Montana, in the in the nineteenth century. I think one in ten people were chinese, as they would help me, not mining and eventually building the railroad. Like does the different industries where the chinese were there.
everywhere that that first group of in all large group of asian irreverence came to united states. They bill Bhutto, doubtless temples in many different regions, and those are our first kind of american buddhist. You know establishing
cambodia summon those temples came under attack vandalism, they were massacres of chinese and why only that
like so many things going on in eventually, of course,
eighteen eighty one chinese exclusion act the first federal law. That said up until that point,
America welcomed anybody. You didn't need to get visas, or you know they didn't have a department of
security or immigration and customs. They just
Nobody in this system
first law. There said one group of people or not
Welcome in america, the chinese exclusion I and so
I recall from way back then this language of it was a kind of slow word of the time, the heathen chinese
it's like a racially on a similar mobile group, but religiously can uncivilized and unacceptable
two american belonging the heathens and that kind of land
it's where religion and race for conflated as a move, waiter and exclude people to me is also what drove.
No, the japanese american experience, the general community on the eve of pearl harbor was the largest buddhist community and the united states at that time, and seventy percent of the second generation. U s born citizens, but even higher percentage of the immigrant generation
ah roughly one hundred twenty thousand living on the west coast hunted twenty five thousand.
The hawaiian islands, the hundred twenty five thousand other west coast. They were put into these concentration camps with no due process, despite two thirds of them be
U S, citizens and again, religion and race, ghak inflated and buddhism was seen as this kind of enemy, religion, buddhist priest,
play. Some special fbi, registries and rounded up. Even before the smoke a cleared at per harbour, they were on a kind of like a threat to national security,
temples had been under surveillance in the years prior to the outbreak of war. In so, as you say, he wasn't just war hysteria or sudden kind of
emergency situation. There was a long history of this kind of animals, and this kind of idea that these people are dangerous, don't belong, might subvert something. And what is that? Something
I have always said it's it's this other idea of america, which is
an idea of america singularity like there's only one religion and one race that belongs in a man
kind of like a white and christian
singularity or supremacy vision of what is america, and so I think you know just going back to these histories from the nineteenth century. Early part of the twentieth century gives us some sense of like what people had to put up with in our community for decades and decades. Prior to this moment,
and so I think what I take from it is also like these are people now in the united states for six in all even seven generations, and that they have tried to stick a clean
in the idea of like we belong, and we are just as
is anybody else and to me that's all
Four thing when the media
on government did society?
well sometimes tells you that you don't blow tat was all very well said and I think credibly use fallen and yeah there's a way in which, if you not following this story, because you don't have to because, for example, maybe you look like me and therefore have the
Would you not to have to follow the story so closely? It can seem like this is all coming out of the blue of the corona virus head and a bunch of
morons, are blaming it on anybody who happens to be asian, but do this. This goes back generations and generations, and so that's just incredibly useful to hear that perspective. I want to get into you, so you have the historical perspective duncan, but also you're a zen priest and I'm curious. How you
I have been able to absorb the horror of the last fourteen months. Through the land,
of your training. Of your own mind. Disagree. Question you know in are met
he's in practice. It's very easy for a mind to wander, for
a body to not be so upright lean left, lean right, fall, asleep can slump over and what is our pride,
This is to become a bright again when we notice that
and in our founders in a hard, because amazon put his priest, we
to the body. Dar mother, before the founder of art, aren't a tradition of thy channels and buddhism.
And there's in Japan
a phrase that is attributed to him. None I gotta be yoke.
When times you fall down eight times you get back up, and so that's been our central can a practice of meditation ray
when you find your body is fallen off slumped over you kind of you
make a straight again when your mind is wandered, you kind of get back upright with your mind again, and this can be kind of thought of as a much broader practice that in our life.
things will happen on an individual basis, a collective basis, a community basis, a national basis where we're knocked off track. You know and we fall down, but what is our practice its to get back up again and become a bright again and so to me, like that's the power of
our meditative traditions is that we have the ability and
flexibility and and resilience built into our practice.
That when we have hate come our way, we can respond with something other than hate with loving kindness. Won't we have these things that kind of really knock us off
track, we had the resilience to get back up, and sometimes we can do it alone. This is, I think, one of the other main things about being in
then, put this kind of community is said. The buddha taught that sancho matters right,
the community matters and that out
millie, we experience things, as you know, particular eyes, persons perhaps, but that we do it in community and in fact our ability to sometimes get back up on. We fallen down
is dependent on the power of our sancho coming together, sometimes late zones where the people there
lend a helping hand, and sometimes we have the recipients of somebody who had lenses
big head, but either way we help each other get back up and that to me the kind of perspective that I think are then buddhist, but also preventing, brought
Buddhist tradition has to offer us in terms of perspective as well as practices. Yet peer pressure has negative connotations, but in fact the lot of ev.
Contemplative history and that now modern sides to show that people you spend your time with have a profound impact on your psychology and behaviour, and I could be really helpful. I do want to swing back to something you said, though, which is so yes, the sort of basic meditation practice of trying to focus on one thing you get carried away, start again, fell asleep, wake up, start again
about lunch, wake up from that start again that can overtime, train you in resiliency and the capacity to bounce back. Although you described bouncing back in the face of hate, violence and hate speech,
And responding with loving kindness, which
for the uninitiated. It is a buddhist term of art, which essentially means like goodwill or friendliness. Is that too much to ask for most people to be able to respond to somebody burning down? Your play?
of worship were shouting go home to you on the street or lighting you on fire. Shooting you in your place of work. Is it too much to ask to respond with goodwill? Does
The great question you're the buddha Todd, there's a famous city about when somebody shy
in the chest with an arrow. You know there's a famous story of that person like inquiring about who shot it with the nature of the person who
Not at all these things and not taking the arrow out and the buddhas play was just take the arrow out and so
me. Buddhism is a very practical religion, and so we fare
deal with taking the arrow out our
the is about alleviating suffering. You not, I mean
the bottom line. We have many different opinions, but alleviating suffering is are saying that we have in common. We try not to do things that are going to add to it. So first alleviate it
you're not, but in the end we do not want to get shot by more arrows.
Had we do need to get a look at the causes
conditions that we do need to figure out ways to get out and the buddha Todd?
when you are faced with hey, you need to respond with love, because that is
Surely the true or a deeper real healing
happens when you do it that way, but is it harder? Definitely, you know, there's end buddhist joke or at least them sam buddhist joke. We have these monk cubs every damn. Don't just
Do something sit there. It is the opposite of, don't just sit, there do something and insult. Sometimes.
The best thing to do is just too said quietly and become still an
other times we respond in proactive way,
other times we bring our buddhist practice and
feelings and our morality and our virtues to bear on our actions, because culture,
really, I feel like we know that. True,
healing and true repair of wounds and suffering can only come from that, plaice and sole. Maybe that's not the first step you take. Maybe it's a ten separate
I think we need to take it at some point changing, and I want to talk about your writing soon, but before we do that I'll a I know, you too are a buddhist practitioner and I'm just curious. How has your practice or has your practice at all, been useful to you?
you and in this difficult period, yeah I'm only if it is to you no influence, they many different traditions, and I think that the spiritual friendships have experienced and cultivated had been really blessed with over the years and put us of many different backgrounds is what I've been really leaning into during this
I am and certainly chanting at home, and sometimes some quiet meditation, but I think, like many people, I really miss being able to be in physical spaces, surrounded by other people, and it's been a joy actually and a solace to just be with a lot of buddhists of different backgrounds, not just asian american but all different, but as backgrounds there's a relief in knowing sometimes that when we're hurting together, we can come together and
we can join our voices together or of train our minds in a sort of shared intention to both see the kinds of hurt that were going through and then find ways to
said all right said: o after we ve been stirred up and then from back. Please have kind of innovative about some,
Wait, I'm poseidon buddhism, some vague at the kinds of stirring that shock. Sometimes that happens to us, but then there is this possibility. We know embarrassing for posada a kind of com, a kind of settled this, and I think
that not as a complacent praise where we get to hang out forever and decided on permanent. So that will pass to that from that, please, when we're joy,
and in the power of community. Where do we go from there and that perhaps even more than any individual practice than I do that reminder that in
isolating times. I'm not alone. There are people who care and that were actually protected by many forces and by the good will actually of many people. That's given me a lot of hope. There are a lot of strands to what you just said, but one that sticks out to me in particular. Is that being settled and quiet does not equal passivity, resignation
et cetera. Absolutely not, I think, sometimes that's just what we need to do in only talk about alleviating suffering, remembering ourselves as well is very important, and sometimes when we get so right up,
so burning in the fires of anger or grief? Just taking a
men and noticing, while
silly herds- and this hurts me and I'd like to know not be in this state any more. How do I shift from the state for me?
I'm not always strong enough to shift myself out of that state and that's on any to reach out for help and reach out to my business community. Speaking of the buddhist community, you ve written a book about the
asian american buddhist community. What would you say is the sort of top line finding or or main thesis of the book? Happy. That's a tough question. I would see
asian american tourists are an identity card or a category is still very much in the making, but that its an incredibly diverse group,
People not a monolith and
there's a lot we can learn if we listen to their voices. I believe one of your point,
that there is a and your correctly
hope, if I'm wrong here, but that that there is a stereo type, that the the serious
Buddhists in the west are the white people who went over day asia.
and learn how to meditate and came back and taught other mostly white people how to do it
and at the asian american buddhist, sir, you know sort of traditional.
ceremony all
religious buddhist, but are doing the practice
the way. The way some of the convert buddhists are doing it and your book, I think it may way seeks to to disprove
that stereotype do. I don't have that right or mine. The neighbourhood, the neighborhood of accuracy, there yeah I'd, see one of the impetuses for this book. Is this kind of two buddhism state
to me that we can see in both their popular literature
and academic literature this idea that there are just two kinds of buddhism, anymore,
our wine of white cupboards one of asian immigrants and
the white. Comrade wine is usually associated with seated
the teacher and rationalism being more scientific, the asian immigrant wine is associated with chanting,
I devotion, and sometimes these description starts fighting into their just kind of superstitious immigrants and they're kind of practicing a watered down buddhism and who is painful to read these kinds of descriptions where at supposedly neutral sociological description was turning into disparagement of entire racial groups of people.
so part of my book is addressing some of the limits of this dichotomy. First of all, the other racial groups that are excluded, but also this reminder that
out of our urban areas, can be limiting. They might be of some use, but often they can have harmful effects when people think they're just
the two options I mean: where do I as an asian american convert buddhist fit into this schema? I'm not quite sure, and so I don't know if I'm disproving this theory so much as china, too
shed light onto while, if we're gonna lump all asian immigrants or asian buddhists or asian american buddhists, I mean those three things are already very distinct, but we have a tendency to lump together and unfortunately, so seldom do we hear these voices in the mainstream media. I just wanted to know what does it look like when we send
or asian american, put as voices it's a different lens on american buddhism, one that I think hasn't been lifted very much for people who like be the the introduction to buddhism, was through these converts these white people
What have you learned through your own personal experience of just living your life and then to running this book? That would be useful for us to hear that might serve,
complicate our views and give
A more nuanced and perhaps more accurate view of how things have gone down.
a first I'd say you know, I'm very much with you. A lot of my introduction to put him in america was also through predominantly white comrades pieces, and I think that for me was actually just really opening to realise. Oh, ok
but his sin- america, we may be a minority- may be only about one percent of the population, but two thirds of us our asian heritage. I mean just that took a moment and then
reminder that the history of asian american buddhism, as Duncan was talking about, goes very deep, so I've been in spaces where it kind of felt like theirs
this origin story of american buddhism that began in the nineteen sixty six. Seventy with white converts, there's ways in which we inherit the two petitions narrative or to citizens- men, if you well and so, to remember that, no actually in the nineteenth century, we had buddhists in this country, so the joe-
since you community, who are predominantly japanese american, but also very much diversifying community. When I go to those faces, I can experience a completely different kind of buddhism. So I thing for me: those do things and then also just the reminder of how incredibly vast buddhism is not just globally
even if we just look in america right, I'm thinking of los angeles as one of the most diverse good.
Cities in the world, if not the most diverse, but a city in the world where Duncan, is based for this may. Fourth gathering having in los angeles and just the dozens of different people that we ve been reaching out to end at inviting to participate in the ceremony. For me, it's humbling- and I like to think of us always being kind of part of
but his family, the big, may be global, but his family, but even american, but his family and like any family, we may share common roots. But women
always get along. There may be parts of the family that are estranged from each other, and yet I think, there's a certain commitment of recognising like who we do have these common roots. How can we get to know each other a bit more, so
For me, I think just remembering that the if one enters through predominantly white comrades,
this- is, I think, there's a lot of great beauty and meaning there and to remember. Member at this is
one of eighty four thousand dynamic it. As we like to say, this is one perspective, I'm actually what's a much broader, but his landscape, a much bigger
but his family, and that there can be a lot of joy and forming connections of spiritual friendships. You know outside of the fungus were familiar with. We can only benefit from learning from buddhists and from people who are different than us in practice differently.
And we do. I fear that I have been on the wrong side of history, and this is a little complicated
because, on the one hand, I do think that the white people who, in the late sixties seventy
went over to asia, learn these practices and came back and and really helped spread. The word here, the west did a rub, an incredibly important and valuable thing in, and it fits into the history of buddhism as it spread throughout the world did adapted to local cultures as it move from india to too bad to china and japan to sri lanka, to vietnam to all so. Ie eight has adapted, and I think what the folks like Joseph Goldstein, insurance, salzburg and jack warfield did was just an incredibly important. By the same token, people like me, who have big mouth and a big megaphone. You know to consistently tell the story, as I have done, that these are the pioneers who brought buddhism to the west is just not true. It's not oil as decided at the whole truth. There were buddhists in this country way
for those guys we're even born and saw I'd like to hear what you think of what I just said and also what you think about how I could do better yeah. I appreciate that acknowledgement, I think, even for myself, I noticed being in predominantly why comets pieces, and sometimes it was just little things like talking about culture is kind of baggage, and so then it was then they might
is the moment of o. Is my family, my culture, my language may foods is this? Our baggage then was the slough ought to be a good business.
I'm totally honest, I think at a certain point. I started thinking that to be a good buddhist would be to be a white meditate her and
It took writing this book and meeting a lot more other, a young adult asian american buddhists from different backgrounds and having us grapple together about this intersection of our race and our spirituality. That helped me see a bigger picture, so I always appreciate when people in white convert communities
because you know who are the most visible point american, but his em right. Who are the people who publish most
and put them in america. They don't look like me.
and so cultivating a healthy level of humility, I think, is very much appreciated and in a broader sense, if we do want to be a writer but his family, if we do want to alleviate suffering to get there, that requires understanding and we each have a kind of
narrow perspective, recognising that and then trying to connect with others who can help us brought in that perspective, I think is really important. If I
be really honest with you, then so I was listening to some. I fear podcast, and I listened just a little bit your first one and twenty two.
Teen with his holiness the dalai lama and there's a moment where you talk about me, see at the very beginning, like I'm firmly not in the camp of like smells and bells. I think that's how you put it, and he just had this moment where both it's kind of cute cause it rhymes.
There is this moment of our thinking, oh dear,
think I am in that camp in baby duncan is too in this old ritual. We're doing is, and it's a little thing
but sometimes those little words when people say that's merely ethnic had this smells embarrassed, but too many people for many of us, that's the core of our practice. So I did have this moment of hurt. I did that have asthma,
if wondering why be really welcome on this show? Can I really share you know my four self, like this kind of full expression of buddhism, and then I listen to your episode with loretta ross
I can't which is just wonderful, a more recent episode, and that was somehow pairing those two together and it was quite beautiful. So this reminder that yes, sometimes we say things and we don't even recognize the impact that it has on other people that our intention often is not to offend or hurt or ostracize, but sometimes it happens, and if we can actually begin to share and speak up about those moments how it lands for other people, then this is the way forward for us.
Yeah. I appreciate your honesty. You're. Definitely welcome on the show duncan. Do you want to weigh in on any of that? Oh, I think I just put this
things so nicely you nervous. I'm down have so much experience in the type of communities Jesse's talking about I serve a predominantly
in our japanese american historically in it's been around for three hundred year with celebrating, are sent airy this year, but
It's ok, it's a different kind of you know saga, but I do think shitting me
it's something that's very, very valuable earlier about like somewhere, like los angeles, where all these different groups- you know it's never happened in buddhist history that so many different groups are rubbing up against each other and that is
something beautiful about and distinctive, too. I think american buddhism and saw in all in my tradition, we have to find ourselves discussing centres,
it used to serve. You know in a historically japanese american immigrant temple and then he also founded this group that was supposed to be wider, called san Francisco says same thing with zen center,
ass, angeles o originally miser me Rossi, the founder of that used to serve our my temple, the one in the
o koyo, primarily immigrant temple, so you know american, but is also built by these type of people to immigrants. Like me, who came
in Japan and to spread the dogma, and many things have happened since, and one of the things that does secured soros either that son of civic shoe the founder of sources as honour and former habit of so called temple the immigrant tap on Japan. Doubts have Cisco, he said
some guys. Like the metaphor he gave was like, when you are trying to cleaner potato, you can clean.
one at a time, take the buds off in the dirt. You know, or you can put a bunch of potatoes in a bucket and then you kind of like make them rub up against each other,
and they will become clear that way and he said that saga
so saga is the practice of rubbing up against each other and in america,
We have the opportunity to rub up against many different lineages and many of the wisdom, traditions perspectives, many of the practices of compassion
but all of our lineages bring to america and women.
Kind of run up against each other. I feel like something special happens and that I think one of the things that there,
his chest, he was saying we don't have to be silo doubt that are weak. We can rub up against each other and learn from each other. Let me see if I can get some advice from you guys back to this question of
How I can do a better job and, on the one hand, well for first of all that the term smells and bells. I think I picked that up in a in a catholic context because they brings the bells and there's the lighting of candles and things like that, and it certainly wasn't mantis
judgment, but it is meant in my perhaps unskilful way.
This kind of meant as an invitation to a
or a group of people in the culture who might be reluctant about meditation, because they think it's going to pull them into a religion either one that, contrary to their pre, existing religion or their an atheist or an agnostic and don't want to be part of a religion and I've been working sometimes skilfully. Sometimes not.
To position. The practice is something that can be secular and simple and scientifically validated. Of course, I also try to throw the needle, because I consider myself a buddhist so
Oh, it's a little the tricky and I haven't always done a good job, but my my goal is to position the practice of meditation so that more people do the thing, because more people than would be happy more people would be saner and less likely to be jerks and
hopefully that scales to some sort of meaningful impact, and yet I don't wanna disparage people or to erase entire cultures who
We wouldn't have this practice, were it not, for I was actually taught telling my son today the six dead, the buddha had a son, and he said
Oh yeah was act was that guy american, like no hey, you lived,
six hundred years ago, there was no america and he was in a country,
india, nepal and and
Oh, I don't want to erase all that history at the same time. So anyway, that's a lot of me talking, but I'd be curious to see. If you guys have thoughts on
a better way for me to position it in a better way for folks who practice meditation to think about these practices within a historical context. I guess one of the things I would say to that is that meditation, at least from a buddhist angle, I think, happens in context. So, as you mentioned history, but does other con
acts such as ethics, such as ritual in a way meditation in it's root, is a kind of ritual. Ah, if it, if we put it in a certain kind of frame, you keep on coming back to the breath. It's repetitious, there's a certain form
warm and it's a kind of ritual, and we have larger rituals within which, for example, ethics play a role so that it could be about concentration. It could be about insight, but is also could be about loving kindness, like metta meditation and so to me like if it becomes completely without context. That's when you know, let's say a military group could save for our snipers and sharp shoot like we need to have them, stick stabilize their breath practice so that you know they can kill people more efficiently, or I think there are ways in which he gets divorced from
the kind of ethical context in which the tradition has placed it, and so I would just want to of always remind us that meditation- it's not just about you,
you know what that guy, like you, we say in my tourism like to stay
the buddha way society. The self the next line is to study the self is to forget. The self in the last line is to forget the self is to be actualized by the ten thousand things it has to do with this idea that
yes, it's about self study, understanding yourself deeper that see inside that's fine! You do that through concentration, you do that through insight, etc, but then the ultimate purpose of that
as you are saying, to make you happy, and how do you do that you can't become happy if you dont wreck?
eyes were interlinked and that's what being actualized by two thousand things means that we are living in community. That's the ethics,
So I would, I would kind of put it in that kind of framework that that we live in song in community. That's why that word is not just the buddhists us not just the dark, but we have come
de and how we relate to each other appropriately. Ethics
For a reason, the buddha put that there is a third wing of what we do for a reason and so I'd. That's when I feel like it just becomes like this kind of inner journey, slash in all
to become more efficient and effective in x Y Z, maybe that's a good medicine to start with, but
The buddha had other more deeper medicines to
we might as well become explosive that do
this would be my take on it now. I think that's great advice I mean: can you have said
a broad audience. I think there are both people who will be welcomed in by a kind of more secularized form of mine for this, but I think there are also people who
sit in going deeper and learning more and learning more of these different perspectives. So for me I think it so important to talk about meditation talk about
It's him in these kind of more culturally engaged ways in these more intersection, always because I think, actually that's meeting people where there at in this day and time people are thinking so much about issues of race, but also how that hinder sex with class with gender.
with sexuality. You know lineage, language and so on, and so forthright, I think, maybe a decade ago or two decades ago it seemed to me there was much more reluctance to even bring these issues up and put a circle, especially especially.
You know, maybe predominantly by konrad species, because sometimes the languages- oh, that's not really, but as there were all wine as other as less I manto like this,
my coups. Why are we talking about here? So I think that
to find common ground, but something that's
grounded in our actual particularity, so that for asia
americans, for example, were entering these spaces, and some of us do not group has put us. We don't feel like. We have to discard our heritage in order to be part of this, or we can
some acknowledgement at the very least of the roots of buddhism, and
the roots of modern mindfulness, very much shaped by prayers in asia. So there is this way in which were very complexly, interlinked and making spaces to have these more nuanced conversations, I think, can actually be very merry healing for people and can strengthen their practice. There was a book that I read sunups
love and I think you just made an allusion to It'S- about the sort of routes of modern mindfulness about the burmese teachers who too,
many of the previously mentioned americans who came back in and started teaching other americans. So yes, learning this history is it just adds up to speak, for myself is really enriched. My understanding of the practice I started at the kind of very sharp edge of these self interest
sphere where the like your. I just want to be less of a jerk to myself and others, and I want to be less stressed, and so I am. I wanted the scientists,
we validated kind of meditation I didn't want to have anything to do with a religion and that I got. I saw the benefits of that. I started to meet some of the teachers and read more about them, and so
the day had trained in asia. New, oh, who were their teachers and more
I learned about the roots of it and then all the way back to the buddha
hindu, ism that preceded him, it just made the whole thing come alive. So it's a long way of saying, I appreciate everything you got to say thank you.
Much more of my conversation with cleansing han and duncan deal can Williams threat after this you, I've heard about master class for years, but I've never actually
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intersection of the notion of karma and buddhism and the very kind
Virtual end and currently hotly debated notion of reparations right. You know I came across this phrase: com of nations when I was doing research for my book america's outta. There was a buddhist priest who was
rested right on after pearl harbor, taken to one of these internment camps and he's riding the train kind of disillusion. He has been an immigrant buddhist priests from japan and picked up by the f b. I and he had had this dream of you know. A beautiful
american kind of future where religious freedom was a part of, and so he was disillusioned going to the center camp where he met this african american trained, porter and started talking to him and getting some kind of sense of, like all
we're not not only like there's a longer history in america of peoples who have been affected by this kind of targeting based on race or religion.
And when he returned back to
California coming out of one of these camps in texas after the war, and he had to choose knows a segregated train
to choose which is he going to go to the white section of the blacks he chose to go to the black section because of that conversation you had and that's when he reflected on like all different communities, including not only black communities, but white communities have had to inherit what they asked
sisters did write. That karma is not just individual
privatized thing of like action here.
reaction. Their action here consequence there, but that this stuff comes in seas rate that either get nurtured or not nurtured or
exacerbated or dealt with or not dealt with, and so we
inherent in any moment. I think all of this prior history and it affects all of us, not just block,
americans. Although I've been doing this work about black reparations and tried to support of this current bill in congress called hr. Forty in mobilizing the buddhist community, the japanese american commie things like that
two two shows some solidarity cause: japanese american, when they went to cap back in nineteen. Eighty eight ronald reagan signed a reparations bill for japanese american scale to civil liberties act and nineteen. Eighty eight, and so this is the only successful federal legislation that acknowledge
kind of racial based, hurt and then a letter, apology, apology and a kind of reparation that came with that, and so I think things from a buddhist perspective. If we do
deal with certain kind of hurts in our generation. It just gets passed on
it's in our minds. It's in our bodies and it's an hour.
bodies arm.
Asian american bodies are black bodies and is just gets passed on, and what is our responsibility in our generation to try to handle some of these things and to me, reparations is just a matter of like acknowledgement, truth telling and by human honour and dignity, and that something that I feel
like as a buddhist priest. You know I don't like to take political, partisan sides on anything. But to me, like that's, just a big issue.
About will who we are ass, americans and are we willing to stand up to all of this stuff? That's happened in the past and can face it directly and try to heal it in its most deepest way. To repay
Deeply? I think you'll like it does come out of the christian tradition. This word reparation. It's a catholic masses of preparation for Christ. It's trying to deal with this idea of in all those original sin and then Christ
repairs that great and there's this kind of linkage in american thinking, Martin luther king used to talk about, you know slavery as america's original sin that needs to be repaired right in that kind of original. Since a dozen quite work, I think,
for us buddhists, but this idea of racial karma they cast in a collectively transmitted through our generations. That makes sense as a bonus, and that makes sense as something that we might want to acknowledge and repair as a nation and sometimes is not just a piece of legislation or policy. You know
is really about just like friendships and communities and being able to repair things in a very deep way, because sometimes it all you can have civil rights acts and no laws can change but of people's hearts. No change that lingers and continues on. So I think that's the wonder of what buddhism can provide for our country,
So we can do that repair work in a very deep way. So if that invitation is always there to do it, and so my suggestion is why not, let's do our part in our generation duckett same with you for just a second? If I, if I can
you you just a really interested in the notion that original sin
doesn't really go down well with buddhists, because the concept at least in the later schools of buddhism is, is quite the opposite. It's not that were born sinners. We have what's the term is
the nature that we are essentially good and maybe there's muck encrusted all over the jewel, but there's still the jewel at the heart of the thing, and it's actually not a thing at all. In the end, and it's a you know, it's much it's much more of a process, but just getting back to the jewel part. The buddha nature part
and you you talk about changing hearts, there did it in the buddha is. I understand tat, except that I have an understanding of of buddhism,
idea is that we can, we can improve, we can get
better and as it pertains to things like bias and prejudice, what does buddhism say about whether we can
shave down the type of biases and prejudices that would lead to hate speech and hate crimes. Sometimes I say
if you had, it can have a quick formula for what is buddhism. I am say, wisdom times, compassion equals freedom in all
We have insight about way. Things really are that's our wisdom and we have. Are you not feeling that we are interlinked? That's that
person, and when we do those two things together, we weaken we can get the freedom, and so when we talk about this
shall biases or legacies of kind of systems of racism and so on and so forth.
One of the buddhas wonderful messages in the form of like it's possible transformation is possible
That's gonna, good news of buddhism right transformation is possible. These patterns and pains and so forth are are able when we have a pathway to kind of move through a move forward, that's imbued with wisdom and compassion, so I believe that we have in our tradition, some ways to
both acknowledge each other's buddha nature and can come to like how do we treat each other
we're fellow buddha sooner. How do that? That's our practice. How do we do that and then and then also at the same time, acknowledging our
broken us in germany because should obviously to be born to get all to get ill
and then and to die. This is something you, those matter how rich you are poor people go through pain because of all these things is just a part of facet of existence, but that we have in the buddhist tradition something that works at those two registered right at the register pain.
can be transformed, but also this register of, like we're not alone, and
We are already in a way there's nothing to transfer
for we are already complete. You know and
can fall back into our buddha. Nature does nothing we need to accomplish. So it's that kind of different registers,
sometimes we have to work at the level of you know: transformation and changing patterns
and noticing them even first than others.
I'm just gonna like we can just let go and relax be into our border nature, and when we do that are interlinked, compassionate natures, it's just nothing. We have to do too much about it, at least as a we somehow have some faith in along those lines. Chancing I've heard you describe your work as bodies
for practice. Can you describe what a body sapphires and then say more about how you view your work as being very bodhisattva work? Should I guess- and I that that to begin with this- and I think that, if as being
maybe the least their own enlightenment, fred indictment of others, but I think you know, even in simpler terms, is to someone who I think, once the work towards scared, the well being of others and themselves zenos see themselves as integral connected to our beings. Anything for me, you had a figure of the bodies that I was at midday inspiration for me when doing chaplains e training, training and spiritual care. So I hope the book can be a kind of just form of chaplains. He may be a form of search or care, because it was actually very healing for me to write this book and it was a way in which I think I myself could feel seen and heard just by being mirrored by others learning from others, and my hope is that the book in its own modest way can start sparking conversations. Sometimes these are uncomfortable conversations, but I also think those
gibraltar. Conversations are conversations, are sort of necessary to do that. Work of transforming the kinds of especially racial pain that we experience. What what did you learn in your work about the importance of this feeling of belonging
I think for a lot of asian american but ass. They could see I'm even gestation american
More generally, there can be a struggle just to find a sense of belonging, and we talk
about race in america, along their black and white binary, for example, think other regional groups feel excluded, aiming for all
recently mentioned even at the very beginning of our conversation today and also, and specifically in but his spaces, I think a lot of asia americans. I found a lot of benefit, certainly in mind frontispieces, but also sometimes moments of pan right, so a sense of not quite fully belonging and then also perhaps in majority asian
spaces speeches, his temples. They may not always understand the languages or understand off the chance and rituals, and so sometimes there's not this force in supplying in there either.
And for me through the process of writing. This book actually saw that, if were connected, sometimes by the sense of liking
really fully belonging.
Is the way in which actually, we learned if you're comfortable in a lot of different species are comfortable enough in a lot of different spaces that actually perhaps are not belonging can actually be a kind of unexpected gift. I think for me, it is in the sense that we can then be sort of bridge builders to different communities and also, I think, there's just a natural empathy. I think, for a lot of different communities, especially those who have bad margins.
eyes, and so for me, asian american put us: is this identity? Actually that connects me to a lot of identities that are not asian american and that are not witnessed, and so just except
worrying. The parameters of that intersection has been the rich fertile ground. For me,
I learned something you know new from every conversation, as this book continues on it sort of
wondering tour in unexpected places where their standards are bookstores. User colleges are high schools, and so that's been a real joy to maybe in a way find belonging in not belonging
We're heading toward the end of our time. Together I just like to see, if either of you has some sort of closing thoughts or areas that you want to explore that I failed to ask about. Let me start with you duncan sure. I actually want to see. If I can try to explore the question you pose
It says you buy what is what is belonging and I grew up as somebody who was my mama's.
japanese. My dad is from the uk and you know, being of cannon mix, raise a mix in all national george, like the idea of like do. I belong in a chip
or the you, like. You find yourself not quite belonging anywhere, often
and then for me
it is on. Was this kind of like
therefore middle path, where actually that in between space is where you find your liberation, so
I feel that in the british tradition we have a beautiful way of
belonging in either one kind of community, but also,
We call just use on my the freedom of the mind to be able to belong anywhere and that that kind of free.
and finding refuge in wherever you are, so that your practice is not to say confined to this temple grounds or it can be. You know me,
a workplace or anywhere can be your monastery
and anywhere can be the place where you can find that place of refuge and belonging, and so.
This? Is, I think, the wonderful teaching of the buddhist cell tradition about where we can truly feel at home? And this is why I think in god's book be the refuge? Is such a wonderful title? It's not just about you'd need to find it somewhere else. You can yourself embody what it means to be their refuge. So I would encourage people to go and check out Joseph's book and, of course they would. They might encourage people to be tanking, spec esquire, american se chair,
and yeah? I think for me be their refuge for those who read the book know that that's very title isn't added to a very dear friend who passed away in twenty. Seventeen of cancer, but for me it was this broadening imitation. What does it mean to be the refuge for ourselves for our loved ones, for all beings that looks different in different moments? Sometimes that looks like doing are seated meditation practices, but
it looks like you know: cooking a meal for someone enjoying it with them, are having a cup of tea,
yeah there and may be having a sort of difficult conversation, but deciding that I care enough about this friendship about this relationship. To have that conversation, so it sort of imitation is the challenge. It's a reminder that we, as human beings, have so much creativity to figure out what it looks like to build refuge together. While I really enjoyed this conversation, thank you.
For having it with me. Wonderful then we ve, I think we covered quite a lot of ground today. So thank you good. Thank you, chancing as well. Thank you. Thank you. So much stand. It's been a pleasure. They thanks to changing and Duncan really appreciate them come on at this.
at the moment, in our history before I let you go, I do want to share two items of business. First, do you want to teach mindfulness to teenagers if you're looking at carve your own path and share this practice in a way that feels real to you and relevant in today's?
topsy turvy world, our friends at I be knee, are accepting applications for their mindfulness teacher training programme, its catered towards working with teens and young adults. The last round of applications are due on. May fifteenth scholarships are available if you want some information to apply check out, I be need a calm. Slash teacher training will put a link
Of course, in the show notes, a second item is, as you may know, may is mental health awareness month over the past year, mental health professionals have not only had to cope with the effects
pandemic in their own lives, but also to help their clients navigate this very difficult world. We want to thank all the people doing this work and recognise the mental health professionals and offer up some support from
and so, if you fall into the category of mental health professional and you want a year's free access to our app where we ve got hundreds of meditations and other resources go to ten percent doc come slash. Mental health and again, thank you. Speaking of thanks. I want to thank the folks who worked so hard to me.
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Transcript generated on 2023-09-11.