As you know, we're in the middle of a big series on work here on the pod cast, which was a good time to point out that, even if you love your job, you will experience stress. However, stress does not necessarily have to be a bad thing can actually be something you harness to your own advantage to help you navigate stress this fall. We ve taken one of our most popular courses from the ten percent happier a course called stress better, and we turn it into a meditation challenge. You will learn from a renowned stress researcher, at columbia, university, professor majuba, economic and the amazing meditation teacher, seven selassie but teach you how to use stress to your advantage, it's a seven day, stress better challenge and kicks on Monday September eleventh, and you can join over on the ten percent happier app right now. Every day, you'll get a short video, followed by a free, guided meditation to help you establish or reestablish your meditation habit to join the stress, better challenge, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get

apps or by visiting ten percent dot com. That's all one word spelled out if you already have the option to open it up and follow the instructions to join if you're, not Already a ten percent happier subscriber you can join us by starting a free trial that will give you access to the challenge, along with everything else, on the app How's, your nerves, level, now low better little better yeah? Is there anything else we could do to address it? You want to sit for a couple minutes sure yeah that'd be nice. Love that you want to. me too, just kidding getting could good. I would that would make me really aren't. That would make go, oh god now, then we would boating After what happened. I lets it for

in minutes and maybe that'll. I want to make the nervousness bad. Actually, sometimes the nerves are actually can really. In my experience really like help your performance, it's like your body getting ready to grow, but maybe just to I dunno. Ground s a little bit chair. I dont know how will know when we're done. Do you Tell me when we're done, yeah I'll, do it really abruptly and aggressively scream. Thing from ABC this. Is the ten percent happier podcast dan Harris. Hello in buddhism and in meditation circles generally

desire or wanting is often considered to be a no no. But is this thinking sometimes taken too or simply misunderstood. Can we he turned are moments of desire for food for sacks etc. Can we turn these moments in two areas in which we could apply or meditation practice in a really interesting and fruitful way. Today, weren't explore this notion. with car a lie: she's a meditation teacher, psychotherapist and artists she's. Also coach on the ten percent happier app side. Note here shout out to all the coaches on the app the fact that we have these incredibly qualified individual standing by to take questions from subscribers is yet another reason to subscribe,

enough plugging back to cara. I first encountered her when I was on a meditation retreat last year and she was one of the teachers and she gave a doormat talk one night that was incredibly funny and also certain shockingly honest and, as you are about to hear, she brings that same spirit to this conversation. So here we go with Carl. I am thinking back to that first time I ever encountered you in person when I was on a meditation retreat at the insight, meditation society and a it, was a three month retreat. But I was only there for nine or ten days and you were giving one of your first ever dormitories. I just happened to be in the audience and I'll did and I'm not easily impressed. I loved it because you,

we're doing what I have spent the last decade trying to do, which is to talk about the dharmu with unaffected enthusiasm, but with a sense of humour- and you are just open about how you are nervous- you were taking. You are like fanning yourself with your whether because you're sweating so much, even though we're in the room with like seven. Incredibly, they had to be really nice people. They wrote a three month retreat, but you are really open about your nerves and then you talked a lot about how you got in meditation, and it was just a great talk, yad or have a question What are your memories of that evening? Thanks yeah, I was super nervous and I think that was Why don't you know when you give a diamond talk on the three month retreat and it was the towards the end of the three month retreat when all these people have been sitting fur I'd or no nine weeks, ten weeks or something like that and

When you have sat that line, you notice every thing you know and you that you're the mind just cancel nice even more in a way, and yet they were really really nice. I was really nervous and I didn't want to make that not part of it, because I want my dermatitis to be just as much a part of the practice as anything else and so that doesn't mean pretending to not be nervous or pretending to be feeling something that I'm not feeling. Plus the talk was ever humility, so I could it can set up there in four ten, like I had my together when I so did not. That would not be very humble, but that's just like a holistic body meant of the practice? As I understand it, or at least in some important aspects of the practices you're getting up to teach You don't feel like a teacher. I needed some sort of impostor syndrome.

stuff going on there, and yet it is a wise and also clever way to own what europe killing, while also being of use to the audience. Tat was my feeling when I walked away from it. Thanks stan yeah give a really bad asked arm attack, so either. One of the things you did in that talk at I loved was talked a little bit about your background and speaking of bad ass. your history of you know long distance running with in your bare feet and serve. It seemed like you just had a long history of pushing yourself, yeah yeah, it's kind of like one of my things. Let's just one of my personality trades does that I tend to, Dive headlong into things and really take them to the extremes, so I think it talk? I mentioned the line distance running I'd like to

the country. One time I wrote my bike from Boston to the cat skills in february with all my stuff there. I think it is just this way that I was trying to defend myself against the world to like beef myself up, so that I wouldn't have to feel vulnerable, and I realize that that was what I was doing until not really So I started meditating and then started to see the ways that it was so painful to feel like I had to do that, all the time to feel safe. Where do you think was coming from. Was there about your personal background that lead you to this, to go to extremes, to protect any sense of vulnerability well, I mean, I think I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is my mother, which I probably talked about, and maybe even in that dormitory, but in some talk. I take my mom and she's she's also about us and

She was born in extra poverty and worked her way to move to this country and become an ecstasies doctor and she's just a huge inspiration for me and I think she's really powerful and witnessing her and having herbie the person who raised me. I think I was tapped into that part of myself. That's really powerful and wanted to be really engaged with life in a way that wasn't fearful the story about your mom growing up in malaysia. I believe I think that was told in another dharma talk, because I know this because after I heard that dharma talk, I got in touch You said like send me everything that you ve ever done, because I want to listen to it and there was another door talking what you talked about some swindlers who took all of your mom's families.

Me when she was a kid. He asked she when she was really young, I'm guessing shoes. By for something like that,. My grandfather, who is at retirement age, which was young there. I think he was in his fifties and he had to retired ass. He had this government job and they gave him a pension and he chose to take the whole pension and at once, instead of taking it month by month, and then these swindlers came and convince them that they were gonna, invest it for him and all the kids new, that something was wrong, that these men were to no good and they were like yelling at them, and king them from underneath the porch with like bamboo shoots, and it didn't matter because in grandfather give all the money, and then they were totally destitute from

why not I mean they are already were poor, but then they were really dirt poor and there were fourteen kids to raise. So it was a big big deal, and so my mom grew up in really extreme conditions, but that's a kind of vulnerability that you might imagine growing a thick skin to cover all put a link to that. First, our talk that I heard it wasn't the first hour. Turkey ever gave me among the first and a link to that in the show notes, so people can hear for themselves but and the dharma talk. You talked about how and why you you personally began your meditation practice. Can you just give us the short version here yeah somebody gave me a book when I was a merrily twenties. It was called seven minute meditation or something eight minute meditation. Some small number of minutes meditation

I started inhabiting for seven or eight minutes a day and started to have just from that short amount of time as your doves and really profound experiences in just a few weeks of that, And then, for two years I was reading in sing on my own, And then, eventually, I had this really really profound. Experience where I just felt totally open and fearless there was just something flooded into me that I felt really fearless and really connected to everybody in large amount of social anxiety that I had was just Chad just disappeared, and I was writing this high for a couple days of just feeling. I don't know enlightened to a certain degree, and then there was this enormous crash has just like well everything success, but it

I even worse, because that thing that I thought that I had was gone, and so I started. I did a google search for meditation retreats and I happened to be living about an hour away from? I am ass at the time in so meditation society, and so that was the first name. It came up and I sat one retreat there and then that same year I sat two more retreats and then I sat the three month retreat cause. That's what I do. I just do it all, and since then I just have set a ton of my retreats. I love longer treats and you're about to.

who do eight year. Yeah, hey love, treated so much that I'm gonna do a year well I'll see if I so love them after the levy is a daunting to you to do a year. I mean a you made it through three months, which is daunting really daunting to me personally. But the notion of a year is terrifying for me. So how is it for you, that's terrifying! Ok, I find that a comforting and so the good news is totally terrifying. I mean loneliness, I mean that's it I've been exploring a lot right now because it so up for me that I'm aware AL lonely, I'm going to be, and so every time they experience when now my mind. Just goes right to this is it's gotta be like for a whole year and its super scary. It super scary to think about what to really confront this idea. This, like really deep belief that I think that a lot of us have

That we can't handle being alone and we're afraid we're gonna die alone, so Why spend so much time alone, if that's what's gonna happen so yeah, it's super scary, so wide put yourself through this well, because I think what straw and than the fear is just this extreme amount of curiosity, like what's gonna happen. the same year. I mean it can't be just that. I'm gonna wallow in a pet of despair. For a year. I've had enough experiences on meditation, retreats and know how, in credit lee profound and how how transformative and how there's nothing else like meditation, retreat that I've seen so far that can help me access that level of deep ease, happiness, clarity, interest, extreme joy.

there's nothing else like that, and so to do that for a year. I can imagine what will come of that of course, there will be loneliness, but I think it's worth the tradeoff for all these other things in terms of allowing is just to make clear to people you're not going to retreat centre with lots of other meditated, because those places are basically closed I don't know of any that's open. Maybe there are some, but I am not aware of it. You're going to its Amanda was, it is clear that students god he adds its independent treat centre in Pegasus brings colorado, which is about our forty five minutes away from where I live now I was originally gonna. Do the retreat at? I am ass at the forest refuge in, limitation study which, as you know, it's communal living people of indoor arms? you eat. I e mails, meals together and that's closed now. It aspires

started in june, but now I am postponing it till october and this other retreats entered. They have six or seven private cabins, so I'll have a cabin to myself and they have a system set up. Were I dont have to see anyone. They'll drop my food off in a bare box. In the woods once a week ago to the bare box pick it and I literally will not have to see a single human being for the whole year. If I don't want to. Yes, so you're, either gonna come out in life or like with the unabomber manifesto either way. It will be really and now you have a husband. So how does he feel about this? he's amazing his seeing and it's really sad- he is an excellent amount of sad and supportive he's just

I think from the very beginning of our relationship, then such a huge supporter of me and everything I do, and he doesn't meditate he's not a practitioner, but he does understand without having to have that experience for himself. He caught totally understands in some ways. I think that he understands what I do better than a lot of people who are buddhists or who consider themselves to be buddhist meditators, it's gonna be really hard were really as each other, especially after having spent time together during the quarantine, but there's nothing else. I'd rather be doing, and we have such a strong relationship that course we'll come back together and it'll, be ok, no matter how I've changed and I think that something he's afraid of cause, I'm gonna be a different person when I finish this retreat no way that I won't be a different person. But I do my

ass, to assure him that the ways that each you're only going to be helpful for our relationship can increase the amount of care and love. That's in it. I believe that for sure every the having done small amounts of meditation- it's not like yeah you're, differ, person, but your training, the mind and some would say the heart and you're doing these ancient techniques to reduce things like hatred and aversion and greed and right, and so you don't, I don't think you come out of the year. Long retreat, there's been a serious malfunction. If you come out of the three month retreat a raging jerk yeah, but we do all have our areas of ignorance, and I mean there are ways that you could be so developed and in some ways

but really not developed and other ways. So maybe that's why? things that's a little bit edgy or dangerous about doing a retreat totally by myself, because I'm not have much by way of guidance. They sent fur My own, I have so many years of meditation practice and so many days of meditation retreat under my belt that I'm hoping at this point. I have enough of me. on inner intuitive sense of the practice. To guide me in help may see those places of ignorance. The lack of support is an interesting question because I mentioned the word malfunction its way. Things can go wrong, but the path so in visions really tough.

Portions of the meditation experience that would not be considered malfunction that that's actually part of the deal sometimes referred to as the dark night yeah do gun to get even more nerdy and so to do all of that without supporting yeah. That's I can see why that would be an issue I feel like I'm in the duke and is right now. Actually I just told you this before we started recording that a couple I thought I'd like disease and my body just feels like a constipated plato factory. All the time and it so unpleasant practicing with this is wrong, really helping me see that I can go through a lot and I can get through anything that I want to get through, and it's not that I'll have zero support, big I can call

my teachers. If I want to make a call, meant her. If I wanted to idleness, I haven't really decided what that's gonna look like, and I probably won't until I get there. And a big thing for me right now is that I feel really interested and explore this practice in a way that guided from within me and not. Doing city meditation and walking meditation in all the ways that you're supposed to do that. I'd like to feel free to have practice, extend beyond those things, and you know if you see someone I am ass people when they eat a meal. You see everyone eating, so slow super slow and if some is eating really fast, unlike scarfs their food, you had a notice, you like well that persons not being mindful

but I dont know if they're not being my full and it's like. Sometimes I feel like scarf in my food, but I dont want to do it, because I know that everyone can see me and if I go to this retreat, where there isn't this expectation to work any, and of way to make practice, look any kind of way. Then that means that I can really practice in a way that feels. Right. For me, you know I want to be able to burp and fart and To really louder and ugly crime, and then I'm gonna write a book about it afterwards and be called my of loud mouth, so yeah me there is the performance aspect of being on a meditation retreat. Yeah there's like I have an on stage and off stage when you're in your room by yourself, you actually start moving faster in the room a mass or whatever, but as soon you walk on stage where all the other yogi can see

baby. You go back and slow motion and you eat slowly, etc, etc. Yeah yeah italy and I was on a meditation or tree and are now a year and a half or something like that at the first refuge for three months and real we started noticing and really disliking the fact that I was feeling obligated to button myself up like that. It just felt really suppressing like it felt I think, I'm I'm extra attuned, deter, feeling suppressed, from my position as a woman of color, I was just so hyper aware that I would sit in this room and have my eyes closed, and I could hear people come in and I would always know if it was a man or a woman well or what I perceived to be a man or a woman. Once I opened my eyes based on how they were kind of klomp, around, like the men would kind of klomp in, unlike flicked the light on and and make a lot of noise.

women would sort of tiptoe and if they turned a line on they be like. And then turn it off once they saw me. sitting in their I'm not trying to condemn me behavior with that I'm I wanted that I was jealous of that. I want to be able to do that and I dont necessarily think that it should be the case had a place like the forest refuge should make a lot of permission for people to be like weird and loud and distracting cause. I liked that place and I liked having the quiet of that environment, but I also need to have a space where I can fully express myself, because I think the practice. Really it's not about pretending to be calm until we are it's about fully feeling and using every aspect of our human experience towards freedom and there's nothing. That's left out of that. There's no difficult

motion or powerful urge. That's left out of the path and think that there's a way in which it gets framed as if yet we gotta escape the suffer We gotta get out of it. We gotta transcend these afflicted emotions, but really I'm just trying to, splore the concept which I really like that it's all intuitive and it's all part of it, everything that's in practice. is included, in our human experience. Everything in our bodies, everything that we feel leads us towards them creation. In some way, can you unpack that further everything in our bodies, everything our experience- leads us towards liberation in some way? Well, one thing about it at length, using wanting as an example, because wanting often gets a battery

in in buddhism. It's it's called greed. We call greed and which it has some negative connotations that some and its also there He said if we didn't want anything the hand it's hard to imagine what human life would be like without wanting things his every time? We do anything because we to do it? You know I move in my chair because it makes me feel more comfortable and I want to feel more comfortable and I practice meditation because I want to be free, and is really anything wrong with that, and so take The idea that everything is useful for practice to its end, it would mean, in theory, that everything,

thing that we want some help points deliberation even if it's something like that is an obvious at first, if we look deeply at the source of what they want. Is really about its about really want to be happy and really wanted to be free and there's a wholesomeness in there, and so, if we listen to you. We too the wanting and we may go on a space for it and we give ourselves permission to feel the wanting than the wanting takes us to freedom. define what you mean by freedom. That's a great question. First I'll say what it's I don't think it is. I don't think that freedom is escaping. Human life were escaping difficulty. I think freedom is fully allowing ourselves to be exactly, As we are

fully allowing every bit of are human experience. Every emotion, every difficult every part of our personality, letting that have space, letting that be honoured, respecting all of it, and that's that comes with the release of the belief that we have to escape something that we can't handle human experience. It's when we don't feel limited anymore, we don't feel limited in what were capable of. We don't feel women And who we are. So I know I'm not gonna play in the nba is that does that mean I've got two million limits. I think everybody has a purpose we are unlimited when we are in our purpose, so

being unlimited to me doesn't mean you can do whatever you want whenever you want. It means your fully in your purpose. Does not answer your question. What is fully in your purpose mean Well, I don't know this is probably different for different people. I could tell you what my purpose feels like, which is something that I only really. It's actually just been a process getting to know that more and more over the course of spending more time with myself. But I think that my purpose, at least right now in my life is to meditate alive and tax for my own heart and mind not even to be a teacher, not even to be imitation teacher but just to practice meditation and that might be very different from some it also purpose. You know, maybe your purpose raina actually be curious. What's your purpose, right now, in Syria,

may this normally. I this question would leave me utterly flux, but I've been asked this question recently and I think the answer came up with which really sounds write to me, as I think but it I'm about to articulate it is to use story telling gap people be as happy as possible, while also having the highest quality relationships with people around me. Can I add a suggestion to your purpose. Please. My purpose could always be edited my sense of at least of what you're doing right now is. You are bridging the gap between this kind of like It s too may be only met fer, a few privileged people, this world of buddhist meditation, that's appear your bridging the gap between that the matters for bringing that to the mast. In a way, that's

later bull, unapproachable, and that can really be heard, and you're doing so much of that that I can't help but feel like that must be part of your purpose right now. absolutely I mean that's just another way of saying the first part of ok yeah. When I said you storytelling to make people is to help people get happier the mechanism is really basically rip off the buddha and everybody is teaching Who and then add the f word a lot and taxpayers stories, but Why I love that it was so taken by you. The first time I saw that dormitories, that's what I saw you doing. I said. Ok, there's somebody who you didn't I going to be in the audience. I don't think, even though you, already working for ten percent at that time. So I knew who you were because you're one of our coaches, but we had met, but you were yeah. What seemed to me like really doing exactly what I've been trying to do for so long

seems like we share a purpose in some ways: yeah. I love ripping off the buddha and saying the f word a lot and doing a lot of other Its first boundary is okay, so back to boundary, pushing We were talking about desire near wanting and how it get a bad rap very explicitly in buddhism all the time, and so If you were telling me before, we started recording that you really want to explore wanting in this retreat. Can you say more about that well I mean be a part of it. Is I and to just be able to like do what feels good like. If I want to up a tree with my face or around in the grass or I don't know just do weird things that feel good, like a child at odds with children. Do I want to be able to do that, and I also want to explore sexual

quality- I'm not a clear exactly on what I mean by that, but it is a practice of mine to engage with that and there is a huge amount of power, in our sexuality. That, I think, is like this enormous field. the experience that goes unexplored because try additionally in an meditation, retreat, no sexual activity whatsoever and ok, I think that's really valuable and a lot ways, because then we can export that energy acting on it, which has a ton of value, and I've got no that could see me that's like the ultimate want, the ultimate wanting for many people, and it's like the whole body is expressing wanting with sexual energy and I'm not saying that I'm gonna be touching my who, what time, but I'm also not saying that I'm not and so

I for you is this- is make me a bad buddhists if masturbating on retreat, you said masturbating yes, we ve already. There was some question: we did I'd, advise my having set it in that mean you can't say: oh no! No! I was just excited that you said that first I guess I'm a question for you is: does this make you a bad buddhist and some yeah? I think so I mean I feel pretty divergent, although maybe it really at the end. of buddhism. The answer to that might be no, but it must be kept in mind that buddhism has been passed down. by a lot of men for many generations and the view of sex reality really is, I think, male oriented view of it feels like we have to escape it or transcended somehow, rather than what might be called.

a more feminine approach to it, where we really feel when we win in our human experience- and we include dad and part of- I mean that's what the buddha tied the buddha did- teach that we honoured this body. This body has everything we need to wake up, that something that he said, and so I I might be considered. A bad buddhists buys people in modern times and I'm ok with that. I don't even necessarily go around claiming to be a buddhist. point in my practice because of how divergent I feel right now and I was teaching and secular circles. I love teaching a ten percent because I feel like I actually can say more of what I want to talk about in those set when I hear you talk about sexuality and the in making that part of your practice. I start thinking, ok,

you and I both come out of terawatt buddhism. The old school buddhism but one of the later schools tibetan buddhism, rhodri an artwork tantric where they have these tantric practices if I'm coming out of that school, I'm assuming this conversation in saying wait a minute. This is what we when talking about all long to use these energies yeah, that's totally at such a good point and it seems appropriate that I'm doing my retreat at it tibetan centre. Actually. For that reason, I've heard this about tibetan buddhism, about the tundra, sex practices and other things, but I don't know that much about it. I've been so steeped in a world of terror via for so long that, that's like what I think of when I think of buddhism, but it's definitely not the only definition or understanding of

What buddhism is more is my conversation with car lie right after this, you have I've heard about master class for years, but I've never. Actually, checked it out, which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. The good news is the folks at master class are now during this show, and they gave me a subscription and as I look at this as I realise that this is a great place to feel a lot less stupid. The lineup on this is incredible. The people there recruited to teach you just gotta blows my mind. They ve got Aaron sorkin in writing, Gordon ramsay, I'm cooking. Also Thomas keller, they ve got anna win, tore on creativity Jon kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation, which is probably interesting and attractive. people who listened to the show? No, I'm chomsky on independent thinking, staff, curry basketball. I could go on. I can't believe I've been sleeping on this happened as I look,

Many of these videos there so well produced so informative and really really type so that you're not wasting a minute you're just get these learning and a very attractive and interesting and entertaining way with master class. You can learn from the best to become. Your best anytime anywhere and at your own pace, annual membership started ten dollars a month and you get unlimited access to every instructor. Thousands of online lessons exclusive content, insights and much more get unlimited access to every class and right now, as a ten percent happier listener, you can get fifteen percent off when you got a master class dotcom flash ten percent, that's master class dot com, slash ten percent for fifteen percent off an annual membership master dot com, slash ten percent.

They promised my group go to the laugh from prime videos, the lord of the rings rings of power and am narrating especial episode of whose amazing life it's a podcast for kids. That lets you experience. Life the eyes of someone who changed the world and you'll have to guess who it is: here's a hint he has been, say. Musical talent is, music, has travelled all around the world and his story is tat. You do that to me his story in english or and this by your play. Listening to music, like on amazon or wherever you get your pop, for those of us we're not gonna do a year long retreat. Cancer therefore prob not going to be in? It situation where he no sexual activity is forbidden, but none of us is gonna. Go on a retreat anytime soon, frankly, What about in daily life? How can we use and explore the wanting

desire and greed in a way they in from your experience from where you sit, could be useful in service of waking up yeah la part of my reason for things interested in this right now is because of the quarantine and how weird we get with the stuff we want when we're in this situation when we're isolated, I mean I just. for me. I noticed a lot of just corky it's coming in and going to the rachel and, watching alive, netflix and cleaning, and they are all these expressions of wanting rate. Any time we want anything, even if it's like a cop cake or something theirs? thing going on there, that that kind of

more surface level wanting is connected to and I, as a exploded. I would find that yeah would go to the fridge when I felt lonely I felt like I was. Feeling, some shame or fear that I just wasn't wanting to feel and it felt nice to change what I was feeling or just felt so, life just felt so out of my control and it felt really good to be able to have the sense of have control over my experience. If I know that if I eat this cupcake, I am going to have a pleasant moment. That's so nice! You know, and if I pause before I win, and got whenever I got and just fell what's going on for me right now, is there, something I'm not wanting to feel. There would always be allowed a lot of stuff that I was wanting to feel my body

just was uncomfortable to be worth and over the course of time. I could really start just to get more and more glimpses of that and ask myself and challenge limiting belief that I can't handle that and to feel those field and the more I was with those feelings more? I could see ya it's not only okay to feel these feelings. These feelings, actually leading me towards self compassion towards self love towards letting go of that belief that I'm not good enough for not able to handle it when I'm feeling and joy through these little many pauses and feeling, a body whether its before I'm engaged the thing that I want, or during or after it doesn't matter. When is the

wanting something that leads you towards self compassion is of love, even if you have the cupcake or do need to stop and look and not have the cupcake and that's when you get there time, any time in the middle of the cup gig at the end of the cupcake at the end of fifty cupcakes, you can always have that because in Those scenarios you're touching just some feelings that are going on- that our deep some maybe afterwards, maybe during its greed, you know, like I want, is so bad in the wanting kind of points to we're really just wanting a hug. You know, and we can tackle compassion for that, were giving ourselves a different kind of hug with a cup but were really just wanting a hug and we can really care at that moment and then maybe

afterwards, there shame and on saying that: that's what happens for everyone but there might be shame after eating fifty cupcakes. Ass, a really uncomfortable feeling to be worth. we can be with even ass feeling. We can open to ok, wild thats, a really hard feeling and there's this belief here. If we, if we look into it, we can see there's this belief here that I failed somehow the I'm out of control not. Ok, I'm not gonna be ok. I don't know how to take care. My I'm alone, and I'm the only one who's in charge of being k in this life and I'm screwing it up, and if we see that we be with those feelings and they're not consuming us. They're, not capturing us We're not believing them for seeing them are forcing how pain

they are and when we can see that there is the compassion we can really care about how hard that is, the self compassion I love your describing is not magical aura or particularly hokey. It's just making room for him being okay with whatever You happen to be feeling at any given time and wanting is a way to guide you too, that the air and for the longest time I had the belief that compassion. and was something that you had to call layer on to your experience like apply it like I'm gonna put my and my heart and that's compassion and I'm gonna feel better. but compassion is really just the result. Of meeting difficulty with open heartedness when we actually just meet our difficulty and don't judge it, then

compassion is, there is a natural and intrinsic aspect of the heart and because wanting can be so difficult, It is a great way to get you there is that what you're saying well that part of what I'm saying. But another thing that's more exciting about it is that wanting can be really fine, an exciting and if it wasn't, the case that wanting was just and something we should get rid of which just in a shame, then we could use the energy and the excitement and the joy that can come with wanting and direct that energy towards. What we really want, therefore, with wanting in a mindful way thin deep beneath the surface. The wanting

is what it's really wanting is a deep kind of ease its wanting a deep kind of self compassion, wanting to be present and fully allowing ourselves to be who we are? And so, if we re that wave of energy that it brings cause wanting is, does vibrant energizing thing and we don t that out, but we ride that wave than it will lead us towards something really really deeply satisfying that we really want that. We want more than the cupcake. I have a teacher naming urim pinochet on this podcast couple weeks ago and. He was making a, I think, a similar point of some understanding you, and if I understood him, that if you look the root of any desire, any desire no matter how socially unacceptable is love because you were tried aids,

organism trying to protect itself. Yeah yeah looks like on par with meagre and pressure. You finally did it. they didn't. I'm done an opportunity that the buddha taught that there's something called much on the witches. wholesome desire, no desire for liberation desire for freedom I refer kindness and desire for love and all desires are connected to that kind of desire. Didn't I ask you a question? Yes, of course I, like talking re now about those these. Weird corky habits that people have during the quarantine. Though you pick up, I don't love, you have these cause you're so busy, but since we're all kind of secluded more than normal. We tend to get into these weird habits. Do have we had habits like that, weird habits that don't

predate the quarantine, otherwise where'd habits that are really kind of cropping up. No, they certainly predate the quarantine, but they may become magnified in quarantine I have a lot of weird habits. I'm just trying to think of any of them has gotten magnified certainly gone through a lot of like mindless eating which is something I've been working on for a long time but the not particularly new or interesting or corky, because I think it's a lot of its corky. It's a universal cork. So they're, the ones you described having you know the cup cakes and the netflix check check both not so much cleaning much to the chagrin of people who live with me, but I dont know if there's anything corky.

Ok, that's been mac whirr! I may, I think, you're eating eating as a huge one for a lot of people. Yes- and I dont think it gets talked about enough, especially on meditation- are true like, I said people is syria eating super slow during this pandemic. I've really come to appreciate voracious eating like an elbow deep and a casserole, but so it is that I think there is such a painful part of my life, the inner dialogue around food. So I'm trees by this notion of kind of harnessing this war cutting energy to direct me towards something that's healing yeah, Yeah and.

So there's a lot of shame. We ever really complicated relationship with stuff. That's really pleasant, because there's so much shame that as I said, it's like, we can barely even fully enjoy it, because we are constantly feeling a shame. The whole time, and we feel that we have to eat really fast so that we don't feel the shame and. Part of my exploration was voracious eating like letting myself want and have and wrap my whole body around that food is like it for the blame and does that shame and it, intentionally challenge. The shame and the whining is more free to express itself and then oddly enough. We end up having more agency with the wanting, because

didn't really have control, because we were being controlled by the force of the wanting and the shame that were battling itself out within us But when there's more space, when we allow ourselves to just be wanting it, then there's more space, and then we can choose, whether we actually want that we can listen to there's just more space here, what we really are wanting, so it does, led to perpetual elbow, deepen casserole it you said, but giving you permission to do it. If we truly want it means that you are better able to sort of. This ambiguity between signal and noise, As we swim through this sea quoted in wanting all the time, Yes, there is added value it again and I think a metaphor is like you,

in a room and the doors locked and you're stuck and then All of a yours, you can open the door and walk out whenever you want, but now that a free to leave, you don't necessarily have to cause. You have a choice now and it's like once we staff that shame. That's like opening the door like. Ok, I can let myself want this. and I can leave whenever I want it's okay and that's kind of how I feel about of how we approached human existence. Sometimes it's like. I just want to escape this really difficult experience. I just don't want it to be so hard and so a lot of times. We approach meditation practice as if it's the whole goal is to get

out of human existence to get it over with to not be feeling so crappy all the time, and I just want to field it ass. You know I just want to feel good. So simple, but if the door is open, if we see that I am making a choice He a choice to be a human and making a choice to live in this life. If we decide that it's a choice that we have, walk out any time. Then human life becomes way more fun. It becomes way more interesting. It becomes way more okay to be with the difficulty cause. That was my choice to be with the difficulty. Can I go now if casserole first, I am yeah and it's not just casserole- can be any object of desire for any of us wherever cigarettes

beer wine gambling sex netflix, whatever I think a lot of us fear I know. I fear that if I, Where did the shame and just in her with the desire that I'm gonna they'll just be no end to the consumption well, wouldn't necessarily recommended exploration to people who are first start I wouldn't say no dont do it, but this isn't I would normally teach to someone who is just starting meditation practice because to be a certain level of steady of mind and a certain love of ability to pay attention and be present, and without that could just be received as this huge amount of permission to go for

ever you want whenever you want, which is really destructive and it's taken me a long time to come to this place that I met now, where I'm really wanted to explore this and feel safe, exploring and aunts been micro doses. It's been a little bit of time of opening an being an opening one of the things that I did as a part of this declaration was, I noticed over a lot time spending with my body and knows that I was always sacking in my belly. I think this is probably something that a lot of people do so appropriate to have a big belly and its culture, its offensive or its just like unpleasant for other people to see that it looks like you're taking up a lot of space, which is rude well If I let myself take up space, what if I open that up, and just my body be the body

It is, and not somebody else's idea of what a body is, The postal look like this is me. This is my body and I belong here. I deserved it. here. I deserve to take up space just because I was born it's this, my birthright, and it's not like. Harming anyone for me to take up space, and that was something actually that open me up to my wanting, because a lot of wanting I mean everything that we experienced. felt in the body and without me opening up that part of me. I couldn't really get in touch with the wanting that deep intuitive kind of wanting, and it was a difficult and painful process as to open myself up in that way, it was really vulnerable, and sometimes people asked me if I was pregnant, which you know what's wrong with being pregnant, but

That was a way that really help me and tangle myself, from the belief that I have to be a certain way, and to listen to my own inner guidance here, because that's where all Power is us we're all your your intuition is. As for all, the wanting comes from as in the belly, so what'd that look like for you, like unbutton, your top button on the regular, no dislike for actually my belly and the cup, because I just like have a belly that can kind of stick out. I think probably everyone does, but most people don't let it stick out, and I just like relaxed What a hang out- and you know you see little kids at the beach and tat? None of them are second their value they and that, unlike road, tangible things, I walk around. That's what we all look like. Yes,

I am one of another painful things in my inner dialogue around didot like wise, my belly, bigger I would like to be, I could use a little permit and to let it hang out yeah, and I mean it was so freeing when I did that, because I just got a really escape from this constant need to be this way, I need to be a certain way and in Well, who am I? Who am I really because I have to tap into all of who I am if I'm trying to constantly fit myself into a mold. Let me just go back to the desire practice that you ve been talking about here, and you said that you, this is unnecessary, something that you would recommend for total beginners, but can we think of a way that we can give people a practice that would be accessible at whatever stage of practice,

yeah. Definitely one thing that I do teach a lot is so if you're beginner meditate her and your noticing a strong any feeling really but what's his desires as the example? If your feelings us really strong polar desire, put your attend. on something that feels kind of grounding like your feed or your buyer, urge your breath or something, and then just let that wanting course through you and what a imagination run wild with it like you could imagine yourself just like. having all of the junk food in the world and putting your whole body into it, but you're still sitting there in your letting that energy course through you and your opening up to and you're making a lot of space or giving it a wide.

asked to plan and run around in an dear staying with some perspective, because you're using this place like feeder, whatever anchor using technology your mind, tethered to them the moment so that you don't just run off into fantasy land, about all the things that you want. Because then that's not super helpful. Do you just kind of spin out and it turns into the wanting actually takes over us? But if you can stay present, open to the wanting in that way, then really reveal a lot to us about what we do for you on, and it can also get that energy moving which has been kind of clogged in us, and we can three vizier cause. We ve been respecting the. Why

in the wanting has needed. Some airtime is needed, our respect, it's needed to be honored and we're doing that for it yeah. I was just doing it while you were describing. I was kind of just using that paragraph. You just uttered as a kind of quick guide, meditation, and I was sitting here feeling my body sitting in this chair and then imagining eating the one of those and he bars they were around when I was little like a that one hundred thousand dollar bars or something like that. One hundred grand yeah so like that. That's still a thing- and I was just and just pouting those wall being in touch with my boy, and so am I you said a lot about respecting it, giving it a wide pasture. any. And what does that mean so like do I get up and not eat denny, candy bars or you're, so yeah? That's it give my is so it's important to not put pressure on yourself to do anything

Take your thing after that meditation the goal of meditation isn't to control your behavior afterwards. The goal is: To be in that moment, with the wanting, in its even helpful, to give yourself permission to go and eat the candy bars afterwards, because then it's not about that is not about the shame, the sad about control its just about being with wanting would it be safe to say that sort of getting to know? I think you probably already said this, but I'm just gonna recapitulate get to know the wanting by giving it the wide pasture by giving it the respect by giving it the compassion, which is co arising with giving it of the space. then, when wanting comes up as it does all three our life You can not be so owned by it. Yeah yeah exactly I mean

for me what I've done this meditation with things I want, it becomes clear that not every time this happens, but sometimes it becomes clear that actually not why had an- and I don't want it anymore, because I could see that wanting was actually Something else is actually I just don't want feel lonely, that's what's going on, and then I can also see the eating a candy bar is actually just gonna. Make me suffer even more because now. I'm gonna feel like guilty for aid, candy, canada and still lonely cause. It's not gonna. Do it. For me yeah? Don't you get loneliness and shame awesome, co, morbidity so marisa are one of the new producers and on this package is producing this ship, the mighty mirth men sent me no before the show said this great are going talk about desire, but let's also talk is there some of us are more prone to aversion, then desire. So what

thoughts about working with, because there's plenty of going on in the world's that wouldn't quite reasonable. Give rise to a version right now, so give any thoughts about how to practice with that? Yes, actually, the first time I did, this practice was with anger and it was. I was about to meditate on a tree and I had just come from some like- And we gathering thing- and I was just ass- I was practicing as a therapist at the time and I was just feeling like Everybody needs me for something and I'm object, did to help ever buddy and nobody is taken care of me answers so angry about it. And so I sat- and I did the same thing that I just accept. with the wanting, but I did it with anger. Let the anger course through my body Let myself imagine all the things is I wanted to do- with anger like grow,

into the incredible hawk and just smash everything and pick up the buddhist you and throw it out. The window and watch it bounds down the hill and shit into a million pieces, and I could feel that you're just moving through and being so glad to be able to have that much space. It's because anger we're so quick to judge our anger that we don't even let ourselves how and then we end up being pent up about it. At an awkward or harmful ways or where passiveaggressive, and until that point, I hadn't really We opened to the anger in that way and it really helped me see that anger has so much to say about what deserve how we deserve to be treated about fairness about justice and its really clear at its

problems really easily and if we dismiss the whole thing that we will lose all that really important message. so that its trying to deliver to us. I seeing through line here, because you know it talking about wanting to be as weird as or as quirky as whatever as you as full, an expression of You as possible on this upcoming one year, retreat that connects to you just said about both aversion and desire, which is like. Invite in the full catastrophe right, because if you don't nearest Pressing it gave it the respect, see at all. Then you have a it's different relationship with what is there whether you like it or not totally, and even want to say that,

to continue with that through line the only practice doesn't the just be sitting and letting yourselves feel it while you're sitting still. I've also come to love outwardly expressing my anger, so five only done most of it in private, but just like swamping going on this. Like a rampage smashing pillars, into the bad, unlike screaming, into the bad and letting it course through. My whole body in a movement way and and using my voice and feeling. If I may, I feel like I can do that, because I've had a lot of meditation practice, and so I can still be really present with myself I get caught in my head about it and then the waterways actually being with the body being more in gauge with my bodily movement helps me drop out of my mind so much and helps me stop being just a story.

I shouldn't be mad or I should be mad or what they did this to me, or whether it's just no I'm angry and I'm playing that out really, prime. Away and that's what I want to be able to do on this retreat. I want to have the freedom to express my. practice in whatever way it needs to be expressed. I don't know if I'll end up. Into a rage allied when I'm on that, trade, but I want to be able to. I want to have the permission and the space to be able to do that and freedom freedom. Is there something I absolutely should have asked but failed to have asked nothing that I can think of right now Look. I just want to say out loud. I'm feeling right now cause it's a thing. I do I mean I think, after this I'm just gonna He really aware that I just talked a lot and I set a lot of things and I

always wanting to be here. Pretty clear that I don't feel like I'm an expert Anything or I know what I'm doing with any of this Like I'm not even saying, I recommend any of this to anyone, I'm just trying to figure out how to be happy. I'm just figure out how to live life in a way that feels good to me, and I don't know if that's right buddhist way or a meditative way or not, but- and I dont know if should recommend what I'm doing to other people I'm just. This is just what I'm doing and am laying out there, and I appreciate you be in said in it and after a city may for an hour and a half that have asked me about it. It's a pleasure for me and I take that in the spirit in which you intend to which is, I think, that's what Free to a loaded word, but that's very buddhist at me, there's a prick you now, eighty baked in to looking at the wheel

old through the lens of impermanence, and what do we know yeah so yeah I buy that yeah well, we'll see how goes- and at this point I have done is now that I've done. pod cast with you. It's like. I have to do a year. Long retreat knows again, but I also have to say that I can whenever I want and I'm not making a promise that I'm going to sit for a full year, we'll see what happens, I will not hold it against you. I don't think anybody will will. Thank you for doing. This is really fun thanks dan. This has been awesome thanks for inviting me, it feels like pleasure. A huge gift. They thanks to car, and I just want to say another word about the coaches. On the ten percent happier absence. As we mentioned car, it is one of the coaches. I just think it's worth repeating that how cool it is it if you're, subscriber. You can chat directly with a letter

breathing meditation coach, cora re housman who's been on the show before answering questions and There's chat with him about your meditation practice, sharing questions I mean these folks are really excited to answer your questions in order to find your coach- once you ve downloaded the app which you can do at ten percent dot com you can just Your profile within the app click ask a question and fire away. Again to car and has always want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make the show a reality. Samuel Johnson, our senior producer, marisa schneider, is our producer our sound designers are met boyton and on your sheikh of ultraviolet, audio maria were tell us our production or nature we at a task of input from tpa. Comrade such as gent buoyant, nay, Toby was levin ben reuben and, as always, big thanks to

My a apc colleagues Josh co hand and ryan kessler. We'll see you on friday with a bonus, prime members, you can listen to ten percent happier early. and ad free on amazon, music downloads. Amazon music tat today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad, tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com slash servant. I want you to pictures, jobs, tinkering with a computer and his garage walt disney drawing cartoons for his high school newspaper every big moment, starts with a big dream, but what happens That dream turns out to be an even bigger failure. Each I wonder, is new podcast the big flop host me

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