It's the 10% Happier Podcast, I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody, how are we doing? Remember a few months ago when Jada Pinkett Smith put out a memoir and basically dominated the news cycle for a few weeks? Everybody was talking about her marriage, that infamous slap at the Oscars, Scientology, et cetera. So my team and I actually we took a look at the book and decided that the most interesting... Was none of the above. I interviewed her right in the middle of all the sound and fury. Asked her about the stuff that nobody else was asking her about. We've sat on the interview for a minute just to let all of the other noise die down, but we are bringing it to you now.

As you may remember is called worthy and it largely concerns itself with her extraordinarily intense effort to Who understand herself and the world. She is one of the most dedicated, and I never know the right term for. But let's go with spiritual seeker which I don't love but it's apt anyway. Jada is one of the most dedicated spiritual seekers I have come across in a minute definitely among celebrities. She has She's studied with Buddhist masters, she's done ayahuasca, therapy, meditation, you name it. So today we're gonna talk about dropping your habitual storylines and tapping into something larger. With grace, surrendering, peaceful striving, why some people like martyrdom, what it was like. Like for her to hit rock bottom, the process of removing her armor, and why the concept of worthiness is-- so important to her. Just to say this is part of a little summer experiment we're running here on the show where we're doing a series of celebrity interviews, we're calling it Boldface.

In July, we're doing Abby Wambach, RuPaul, and Jada. Jada Pinkett Smith, coming up. - This offers a wide selection of organic everyday favorites infused with functional mushrooms and adaptogens. Coffee, coffee pods, instant coffee, cocoa's, protein powder, elixirs, drink powder. There's blends, creamers, and capsules, all intended to provide a simple way to elevate your everyday routine. Their most popular product, Think Coffee, combines organic. Arabica coffee with lion's mane and chaga functional mushrooms which have been used around the world For centuries for their health benefits. This combination of carefully created ingredients gives you increased mental focus, energy, and long-term positive mood without the jitters.

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This podcast is brought to you by Huggies Little Movers. Our son is nine, so we've been out of the diapers game for a while, but I do remember when we were regular customers of Huggies. Huggies know babies come in all shapes and sizes and baby tushies do too. Huggies has more curves and outstanding active fit. That this product is curved to fit all of your baby's curves with 12-hour protection against leaks. Into the best-fitting diaper Huggies Little Movers. Jada Pinkett Smith welcome to the Thank you. Thank you for having me. As you know, we are asking a bunch of smart people. What their non-negotiables are, like what are the practices or precepts that you have to do every day or maybe most days. Hey you, what are yours? Well, first and foremost, you know, I wake up about 5 a.m.

In the morning and I meditate. Sometimes it's a sitting meditation, sometimes it's a walking meditation. Then I will do some kind of physical... Bye. Activity, whether it's Qigong or yoga, and then I am going to read some scripture of some kind. And then another non-negotiable for me as well is like, these days I am really... Trying to live my life through my relationship with the great supreme. It's probably one of the most important relationships in my life today. In regards to my relationships and my work, just everything has to come through. My understanding and my connection with the great supreme before anything else what do you mean when you say great supreme I would say

Thank God, you know, I usually--or universal source. Power that's higher than myself. - Do you have a specific conception of God, like through a Christian lens, or is it more diffuse than that? You know, I grew up, my grandmother, you know, while everybody else was going to church, I grew up through an organization called the Ethical Society where I learned about so many different religions. My grandmother was an atheist. But she wanted me to be able to choose whether I wanted to believe in God or not and what God I wanted. And so I do have a specific vision of God, but I usually keep it to myself because, you know, when people talk about religion and politics, things can get real sticky. So you...

You have a view of what God is, but you don't try to voice that on other people. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think everybody, you know. My personal understanding of the great supreme is that it comes in many forms and has many faces. And so, you know, I leave it to when I'm speaking about the Great Supreme for people to envision what that means for them, because what it means for me is like, you know, whatever. I just leave it to whatever form and whatever face appeals to the person that's... Listening or that I'm talking to. - You said before that having a relationship with God or the great supreme is... For you in terms of managing your ego. How does that work? - Yeah, I think that... For me, just recognizing that sometimes that level of self-centeredness can make us believe that we're all that exists, right?

I think for me, staying in contact with my understanding of the great supreme helps me to use my energies to be in service to something far greater than myself. Bye. And so trying to always think about the greater good, you know, versus what is... Self-serving. It's tricky, you know, because that's quite a practice. It's really a practice. To even have the level of discernment to recognize the difference. Between something that's serving you and something that's serving something greater than yourself. - Hmm. - Yeah. Worthy about daily practice that you try to do. You call it surrender practice. Um. That seems relevant to what we're discussing now. Is that? Yeah, absolutely. Can you describe it? it.

So surrender practice. So often when... You know, my ego will grab me into thinking that I need to act on something or I need to push to make something happen or what have you. It's... Releasing and letting go in the moment, right? 'Cause any time that I feel like I have to do something in the sense of like making something happen, That usually is an indication that I need to let go. You know, if I'm looking for a specific outcome Which I'm so used to, right? I'm just learning how to let go, take a-- and just let it be and just give it over. And that's something that I have to do often throughout the day. Because I'm so used to thinking of a specific outcome.

For things and putting all of my energy towards making that outcome happen. And I'm just learning now as I get older that, A, I'm not that intelligent to always know what the best— outcome should be and that the great supreme has it all. I can just relax and let go. You know, that there is an energy far more intelligent than myself. That has things under control. And so, yeah, when that little controller within me-- We want to put our effort towards, you know, life. We have to live life and we do things and make things happen, but not allowing my little... Controller and that little ego within go, No, but it has to be this way and it has to turn out like this, you know? It's kind of like, No, we're here. We're in the flow. It's all good. I don't know if

This will rhyme with what you're saying, but I come out of the Buddhist tradition and I know you know plenty about Buddhism, but in Buddhism we talk a lot about non-attachment to results so that we can. Try really hard on something, you know, a book project, a video project, a business, a parenting endeavor, whatever it is, we can try really hard. But we exist in a universe that is chaotic and mysterious. Yes. And we are not in full control. And so if we can balance the effort. With the wisdom of knowing we can't control everything, that seems like a route to peaceful struggle. Absolutely. Peaceful striving. Peaceful striving is where it's at. And I'm even getting to a place where I'm just like trying to be in tune to So. What am I being used for? Which is a whole, you know, another layer that I've been kind of diving into. The role that I've been given to play in this cosmic dance, right? And being--

Open to the idea that I might not always know my role, right? And so the ego telling me, No, no, no, Jada, this is what your role is. It's like, Ah! Let's wait and see, you know? And so I've been really digging on that lately as far as like allowing myself to listen, to see. What the role is. And you know what? Sometimes the roles we have to play are not always pleasant. Been digging on that as well. - So there's a process, and it sounds like you have many processes for dropping. Your storyline, tapping into something larger, either it's the great supreme or even, maybe even it's-- just your body and whatever signals your body happens to be sending you. And then you can make a smarter decision that's less self-centered based on that break, that pause. Absolutely.

And just kind of seeing where-- how is everything flowing? You know, getting into that more Taoist perspective as well. Your book has gotten a lot of attention for personal stuff, you know, having to do with your family, but as I look at the material from the book, Strikes me, which is you may be the most dedicated spiritual seeker. I don't love that term, but whatever you want to call it like that. Across in a long time that you've tried ayahuasca many many times you've met with Thich Nhat Hanh you've met with other spiritual leaders you've studied in many different religious traditions you've done therapy, medication. What is driving all of that? Because the level of effort and ambition there strikes me as unusual. Just really in search for happiness in its truest form, right?

And having reached a level of material success, 'cause we're told all the time that material success does it, right? And just knowing that there is more. And when it comes to spiritual seeking, I mean, it's endless. And I'm always looking for different doors, you know? Because I feel like the-- One thing that I've learned in not being afraid to being open to studying different practices Each one has given me such a beautiful gift and a different understanding of the great supreme, right? My personal opinion is that the great supreme is so vast and so big that

I'm learning different aspects of it through different traditions, or have through different traditions, and I've gotten really beautiful gifts and different sacred gifts. Approaches to honoring the Great Supreme. And so even though I've-- Out of everything that I have studied and learned, I do have a very specific idea. Idea of the great supreme for myself, but I've gotten so much beautiful understanding. Through meeting so many different masters from different traditions that have really helped change my life. That to me is really ecstatic. It is the thing that gives me the most joy in life is when--

I'm given some different spiritual gift of some sort that enhances and nourishes my life. And then I can share it with my friends and my family if I'm called to do so or if they're interested. That to me is life. - There's so much of what you just said, but I'm just gonna pick up on one thing first, which is. What you said right at the beginning of that answer. You, by many objective... Of modern measurements have everything, everything. Clout, fame, money. And yet something profound is and has been missing and that is what is propelling you on this path. - Yes. Absolutely. And I think understanding that I'm great. To be as privileged as I am. But even in that privilege, I was spiritually deprived.

I did not have the spiritual foundation that I needed to... Give meaning to any of it. And that's just for me. I can't say that that would be the same for everyone else. But for me-- Me personally, I really learned that having all of those material things, That cloud, having that success, wasn't nourishing the void within my heart. It didn't heal my broken heart. And I think that we are all existing. Extensually brokenhearted in a certain manner, because life can just be heartbreaking. It was a beautiful thing that Thich Nhat Hanh would often talk about. He talked about suffering. Suffering with grace and understanding the sacredness within suffering.

And knowing that that is a part of the human experience. It's part of the human condition. You can't really know that until we are willing to learn the spirit. Nature of ourselves and of the world. And I could not understand how I could have so many things and still be so brokenhearted. I felt like something was inherently wrong with me. And I just... Didn't understand. And it wasn't until I really continued. My search and was really deepening my commitment that I... Understood that you're not unique, Jada. And that's part of the ego on the other side, thinking, Oh, lo is me. I'm the only one who suffers like this. Nobody else is suffering, you know, all of that, right? Which is just another aspect of the ego.

I mean, let me tell you, and my ego leans more towards martyrdom. And that was something that I had to learn and discover. I'd never, I was like, that's ego. I thought that was like, you know, the pain of it all. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not a unique position, you know. And so once I got with that, I was. To even look at some of the dramas in my life very differently, very differently. There's a blessing in itself. - You said a bunch of things that have given me 75 things to follow up on, but just... Let me say, just out of respect, I think a lot of people in your position might have--

To milk as many worldly pleasures out of the situation as possible until they ran out of road like I'm thinking about this famous quote from John D Rockefeller an ancient like rich dude who was asked how much is enough and he said just a little bit more. Yeah. And, you know, like... I think a lot of people in your position would just be like, all right, I'm gonna paper over this existential angst with. More achievement, more money, a new tequila line, you know, some branded high heels, whatever it is, drugs. Any kind of thrill shopping whatever but you actually said no I'm going to try to learn more and what you learned actually brought you into Really in a raw way the brokenheartedness that you're referencing. Leaning into the grief, which is not something most people are willing to do. And it sounds like that is what you are doing.

- Yeah, let me tell you, and I get it. Let me just say that, that... I so understand why people run. You know, Lord knows I did for a long time. Time until I hit a rock bottom. I hit such a dark place, you know? I talk about it in the book where I'm looking for cliffs to drive over. You know, because I got to a place that I wanted to end my life, but I didn't. Want my kids to think that I ever committed suicide because it was so... Painful and I could not see a way out. Because here I am with everything a person could ever have and still miserable and I was confused because I was turning... 40, so I think it was 2012 or 2011, and nobody was talking about mental health.

In the way that people talk about it today. And it was still really taboo. And I had tried all different kinds of therapy. And it didn't get me to the happy that I was looking for. And so... Reaching a rock bottom like that. And today I'm grateful for that rock bottom. Because it was an extreme circumstance that needed to happen in order to get me on to the past. That I'm on now. And you know, I wish we didn't have to have rock bottoms like that. Sometimes when we're dealing with the strong energies that pull us in this world and the way that they do, Energies that'll make us believe, man, go ahead and get that shoe line, man. Try that cocaine, man.

Hit another bottle of that, you know, alcohol. It'll make us think that looking-- that instant gratification for the moment, you know, to just get us through whatever we're going through in that moment, and we'll just keep in these cycles, you know, but I'm-- Grateful for rock bottoms, for those of us who can survive them. You mentioned it. - A couple of paragraphs ago, and you said that he said something about the sacredness of- For suffering? - Suffering. - Yeah, so what about suffering is sacred to you? - So getting in contact with compassion. When we allow ourselves to sit in our broken hearts. And we can be with the intense feelings of grief. of grief.

And despair and disappointment. It teaches us so much about ourselves. As well as about others, when we learn about our own suffering. And we're willing to be with it in a certain manner, it helps us to understand how-- people around us are suffering as well. And... We can realize that we're not alone. And we can realize that we can actually help. Ourselves and others through the suffering. And that's what makes it sacred. And if we're willing to surrender, brings us closer to love. Brings us closer to feeling more connected to ourselves, which then offers more authentic--

connection to others. And that's what this is about, being here. In this place. We're all here just simply trying to help each other, walk each other home to Our hearts, our souls, you know, for those of us who choose to want to have deeper connections with. Our understanding of the great supreme. - Yeah, I mean that really jives with the way I've experienced it, which is if you can. Do this deeply counterintuitive thing of feeling your pain. As opposed to running from it. - Yeah. - It will do two things for you at least. One is it will put you in touch with the truth. Like the way things are. - Yeah. - You know, for everybody, we are all, talk about non-negotiables, we're all gonna get sick and die. And everybody we know is going to get sick and die. So suffering is, you know, part of the package. So feeling.

As opposed to running with it, put you in touch with the truth, and then it inexorably, in my experience, leads you to seeing, oh yeah, I'm not-- As you said before, I, Jada, I, Dan, I'm not unique. This is happening for everybody. Can I be useful in the face of that situation? And by the way, the being useful makes me feel better. Yeah. - Yeah, and it makes me feel like I'm in service. - Coming up, Jada Pinkett Smith talks about de-armoring, boundaries, and worthiness. Picture. After this, it's 20 minutes between your kid getting off the bus and when you get home. A fire starts. When they decide to make a snack. Do your kids know who to call? Do they know how to say, Alexa, call for help? That's all they need to do to be connected to a dedicated emergency response agent faster than industry standards.

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Before we get back to the show, just a reminder about the Healthy Habits course over on the 10% Happier app taught by Kelly McGonigal and Alexis Santos to access it. Just download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps. Said before you referenced walking each other home which is a I believe a quote from Ram Dass. Who's the... Probably. I love Rob. For people who don't know him, he's a, you know, he's a great, he's actually a white guy from the Boston area who, whose name was Richard Alpert, and um, got... Little trouble at Harvard for giving his students acid or something like that yeah and then went on off to India and became Ram Dass and actually became quite influential and incredible. And in your book you talk about another quote from Ram Dass that I'd love to get you to talk about now.

We have to learn how to have an open heart in hell. - Yes, that's one of my favorites. It's learning how to allow the heart to be elastic. Fantastic. In really uncomfortable situations, right? So. Here's where I've done a lot of practice in regards to surrendering the ego because just like you said, it's so counterintuitive. So if you're being attacked or somebody is sharing something with you that is painful, you know, the first thing my ego wants to do is fight. I had to learn how to surrender that fight and tell myself that that fight... Hasn't serviced me, hasn't worked, and then just be willing to open my heart to love.

And allowing loving presence to be what is in the middle. Of this uncomfortable situation that's making me want to shut down, fight. Become callous and hard and protect myself. And man, it has been a beautiful practice, but wow. A beautiful practice, but... Wow. It's something else, you know? But I've learned that love is the greatest shield. It really is. And it is about being able to open your heart in hell, opening your heart when it's not the most... Ideal circumstances because check it it's easy to love when you know the circumstances are ideal and exactly what you want them to be it's like who are we when they're not so I think

I have two choices. I can help create more of the same. I can add more aggression. Hatred in the world, or I can be with the haters. And aggression of this world. With an open heart. And it's a hell of a practice. That I think is relevant and get to see what you think of it. Is that OK? Yeah. So for my well, I think we're probably roughly the same age. My for my 50th birthday of. Close friend of mine is a great meditation teacher her name is Sabinay Selassie and she gave me a painting that a friend of hers who she she's... Was an intuitive, I don't even know what that means, but the friend made this painting and she bought From the friend and gave it to me and it's hanging in my office and as I was hanging it up I saw in the back that it was called the title of the painting was My Open Heart Keeps Me Safe.

The way I'm wired, I see language like that and I think I'm the very skeptical, anti-sentimentalist guy. And so I don't like language like that. So I hear it. I'm like, oh, this is some New Age bullshit. I was like, well, how would being open in the face of the dumpster fires of the world? To agree with it, even if I don't love the verbiage. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'll stop talking and see if any of that lands Oh, that lands big time. And, you know, big time. Turned off by verbiage like that like I I'm the same way I'm just like you know

That usually, you know, all of those little quotes or what have you, like, you know, you gotta embrace your inner child. It's like, ah, don't-- To me, I've learned it's created the greatest safety. It's like it envelops and-- It dissolves and softens all of the--it makes the-- of the world, not non-existent as if it's not here. But non-existent in the fact that it's not necessarily real. And that's what it's about. Taught me and that most hate that's projected.

I've learned not to take it personally, and that people are just trying to figure out what to do with their own... And my own lack of self-love and-- How that made me behave. That's the only reason why I really... Understand this because I had to walk through the shadows of my own heart. I had to walk through the shadows of my own psyche to really Take a really deep look at myself. And when I was willing to do that, I could see how my behavior mirrored behavior.

In the world that I found hurtful towards me. I was like, Oh, I do that. Same thing. It's like, oh, I get it. Okay, got it. Projection, okay. And then I realized, oh, so none of that is real. None of that is real. And so the love just kind of, you can just be with it and you can sit with it in that way. It just dispels. The illusion of it. - Let me see if I can re-articulate this, just to put a fine point on it. This is mostly for just to make sure. I understand it because I'm actually writing about this so this is useful for me in my own work. So the way Jada and Dan see this is that intuitive painter. Or whatever her name is, is right because if you close your heart, whether we like that language or not, if you armor up against... Your own nonsense and the nonsense of the world, it's not gonna work in the long-

It's not a sustainable strategy because you are too small. We are too small and our mind is too complex. It's gonna get in. It's gonna find a way through the armor. The crazy but most effective move is to drop those ego walls. Get- Close with our own inner turmoil. allow that to have a different view of other people's inner turmoil so then we don't take their nonsense so personally. That's right. And can even empathize with them because we see how we could do the same thing if we Came out of that womb and experienced the same things. And so that's the closest we're gonna get to safety in a chaotic world. That's how having an open heart would keep us safe. Am I in the neighborhood of correct here? - Absolutely. And I think it's the greatest contribution that we can make in helping.

To change the world, you know, so that we don't add more of that energy. Into the world that creates more of the same. Do you watch Lord of the Rings? watched the original movies, didn't love the Amazon reboot, but I did watch the original. - The original ones, right? - Yes. - So do you remember when those, I forget what you call them, but those creatures were coming out of the... The ground and all of that darkness was about to take over the world. And it was like millions of them. And it seemed like there was no way that you know, they could be conquered because it was so many of them. -BOWEN The Orcs. -SHANNON The Orcs! And then the wizard comes. And it's like, it might have been what? Six of them? Him ten of them at best and he comes with his you know crystal ball and he you know this light shines through and just

spells! All of that darkness! And so the subtle way that love works, I also... Talk about a lot of times when I refer to like how much shadow it takes for to be seen in a room full of light. So we're in a room full of light. How much shadow has to, you know, fill the room for it to even be noticed versus... When we're in a room of darkness, how much light needs to come into that room before it's recognized? A speck. So, I say all that to say that just because love itself might not always be so loud, it far more potent than how loud negative energy can be. Mm-hmm.

And I always refer to that. I either think about the Lord of the Rings moment, but the crystal fall, or I think about the idea of... Shadow having to pour into a room of light and how much it would take to be seen. And vice versa, the light that-- comes into the dark. - I really like that and I used to be a news anchor so I traveled around the world watching The Worst Thing. Mm. The worst. Things that humans do to other humans. And so I, you know, I want to believe in the power of love and I do deeply. Um, and by. Same token I mean there are a lot of orcs so I just kind of think I don't know who's who or what's going to win in the end but I do know that. It is possible for each of us to take care of our own shit, to do these processes that you're talking about here, get comfortable with our own ugliness, and therefore to--

Better in the world and that we will be increasing the quotient of sanity by doing that and that we will be happier in the process. And that I feel like is the best any one individual can do. - Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. That's all we're here to do. And we got to let the great supreme figure out the rest. I do want to get you to clarify one thing, because in case people are confused when we're talking about having an open heart, that does not-- Mean you're a doormat. In your book you talk a lot about boundaries so can you say something about that? Open heart does not mean, you know, unconditional tolerance. For a long time, I believed that... Being loving was allowing anybody to do whatever they wanted, you know what I mean? It's like, Oh, you just have to allow because, you know, that's part of loving. And it's like, No, no, no.

We also have to protect our peace. It's like I always think about those Buddha statues or those Kuan Yin statues that's simply a hand up. You know, it's just like, stop right there. As kind of like that boundary, creating-- That boundary or pulling out the velvet sword because we have to be our own. Warriors of light. Love isn't always just about, you know, moonbeams and... Freakin', you know, fairy dust. You know, sometimes love has to be extremely fierce. The goddess Kali in the Hindu tradition. You know, here she is with her tongue out, and she's got the machete, and she's got a... Garland of skulls around her neck, you know? She is the ultimate. Boundary-setter, but it's through love. And it takes a

Lot of personal development. For us to understand the difference between setting loving boundaries and setting boundaries from a place of resentment, revenge, hate. With ourselves through that process. And I didn't necessarily have that. So when I was starting my becoming aware of my love practice, I Bye.

That anytime I set a boundary was an act of unkindness. And it was, right? Because of where it was coming from. But setting boundaries is not an act of unkindness. Where I was coming from in setting the boundary was. So I really had to learn. How to set boundaries for myself from a different place. And that is a practice because listen, we're all taught how to set boundaries from anger. From all those other places. You know what I'm saying? And so it just... It takes time. But yeah, love, being in an open heart does not mean you are a doormat, not at all, but it definitely. Bumper sticker I once saw on the, uh, on the rear.

Love and light and a little bit of go fuck yourself Yeah, there it is, you know, there it is with love Yeah, for sure. Before I let you go, tell me about the title, Worthy. The title, it was a word that I was using a lot in the book. In the book a lot, like trying to find my worth, my value to myself. Feels unlovable. And my editor was like, Okay, we might feel unlovable, but nobody wants to buy a book called 'Unlovable.'

Since I use the word worthy, that's what we're all in search of. You know, we're in search of our self-worth. For ourselves really. We think we want to feel worthy to others. We are. Oftentimes are using others as a reflection, you know, to help us feel a certain way about ourselves. I was like, wow, if we can all just get to that place of feeling worthy, you really care less about what's happening. Of self-worth and that feeling of feeling worthy. And so... You know, 'cause even though the book is about my journey, I'm hoping, and from what I'm discovering from people who are reading it and have read it,

It also reflects the journey of others. So it's our worthy journey. It's not just my worthy journey, but I feel like it's-- You know, it's just one kind of reflection or look at a journey towards self-worth that I think is pretty universal. I'll just pick up the phone. Not like the language of love generally, you know, loving other people, but generally you're not going to get a lot of criticism if you're talking about love. That means setting boundaries and it means having enough self-worth to send love, not from a needy place, but from a full cup. and I

I feel like this is something that isn't widely understood and yet you're explaining it quite well. - Well, thank you. I appreciate that. - Well, let me take a risk and say something, ask you a question. I don't know how this is gonna land, but. - Okay. - I have not followed the book publicity, your book publicity super closely, but to the extent that I followed it, it seems like it's focused on a lot of stuff that. Is in the book but isn't core to my understanding of the book. And so it's not my, I'm not your agent, I'm not your editor, I mean we just met and on video so we don't even really know each other but... Um... It seems to me that you're a person who has done an enormous amount of interpersonal. Intrapersonal spiritual investigation in your life. And that doesn't seem to be the thing that people are asking you about. Understanding this correctly. Do you agree with that diagnosis? I do agree with that and I think unfortunately

People feel as though that's the clickbait, right? And that is, I think. Unfortunately, people sometimes lean into some... The personal stuff, which like you said, is not the core of the book at all, you know? But-- I think they feel as though that's what would get the ratings and what gets the attention. My publicist who also happens to be a really good friend of mine about this the other day. I was just like, wow, you know, is there a Which way I think about it, it was going to be noisy in that way at some point, you know?

It was just unavoidable, unfortunately. But I do--one of the things I do love is that people who are reading the book see that the book is not that. For those who get beyond the headlines. - Well, maybe that's the positive spin here, which is that you made some noise. And so maybe the noise served a purpose. - Yeah, I mean, listen, once again, it goes back to how we started the conversation. I just had to surrender. The great supreme knows better than me. You know, it's like, because that surely wasn't what I was hoping for. But everything happens the way it's supposed to. That's what I do know. You know, everything's in divine order, even if it doesn't go.

Be the way that I had envisioned. I do know that it's all in divine order. Jada Pinkett Smith, a total pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for making time.

If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wonderie.com/survey. When you can drive them, find your dream car with L-certified by Lexus. With an unlimited mileage warranty for up to six years and a complimentary maintenance plan. Experience amazing, exclusively at your Lexus dealer.

To discover more. Call 800-USA-LEXIS or see your participating dealer for warranty, maintenance, and offer details. From Wondry, this is Black History For Real. I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Conscience Lee. And every week we're gonna be chronicling a lot of trials and triumphs from Black folks we ain't never heard about, even though we've been doing the damn thing since forever. Together we'll weave Black History's most overlooked figures back into the rightful place in American culture and all over the world. Because on this show, you're gonna hear a little less. In August, 1992, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. And a little bit more. Sam looks to his fellow students. They just as mad as he is. He can't stop thinking about the tragic war in Vietnam and the violent backlash to the civil rights movement. It's like the whole world falling apart and ain't nobody ready to make it right. The school board could do something to change it, but they'd have to listen first. Follow Black History For Real on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.