The ten percent happier podcast dan harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings? How we doing today we're we can talk about the science of changing your relationship to food, the science effectively of eating or more specifically over eating eating when we're not hungry. I know this is a. From for me even after years of working on it. I want to be clear from the outset here that this in an episode about how to lose weight. After many years of obsessive trying to wrench my body into a certain shape. I have learned through many of the interviews right here on the show, in fact that this is a toxic enterprise trying to get your body to look a certain way. anyway? It's unlikely to work in an abiding fashion anyway, my work for a little while

So, instead, today, as I mentioned, we are to talk about the signs of changing your relationship to food, how to eat mindfully. Actually we're gonna, do a two part series on the subject this week as part of a currying series that we call get fit sanely. Today's guessed at my old friend, doktor judson brewer his best selling author an internationally renowned addiction, psychiatrist and neuroscientist he's a professor in the school of public health and also at the medical school at brown university. He's the author of the forthcoming book, the hunger habit. Why we eat when we're not hungry and how to stop. And in this conversation we talk about habits, verses, addictions, the scientific evidence to support, judge approach, the difference between hid, donec, hunger and homeostatic hunger. The pleasure plateau, the difference in satisfaction and contentment judd's take on intuitive eating, which has been hugely influential for me, whether we can still iep gummy worms, mindfully.

and the buddhas advice on eating, but first little bs p. Blatant self promotion want to mention two things. First, over on the ten percent your app. We have our new year's meditation challenge, but it's called the imperfect meditation challenge, its design for people who beat themselves up about whether they're doing it right. It's hosted by my friend, the great meditation teacher, Matthew, hepburn, it's free it last for fourteen days and you can sign up and join over on the app right now quickly also want to mention that we're doing to more live meditation parties at the omega institute in upstate new york will put a link in the show. No ones in may ones in october. Come join us it'll. Be me seven ice, lassie and Jeff. Warn the last one was a blast again lincoln. The show no sign up get closer the best you audible lets you enjoy all of your audio entertainment in one app you'll, always find the best of what you love or something new to discover.

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check out. These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat cure or prevent any disease. Doktor judson brewer. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me great having you back so you you have spent a long time studying among us things addiction. You ve worked with people with we had addictions, people are addicted to cigarettes. How did you get onto food? I was doing a study with Ok, and we got some pretty good results and we might have talked about that before we had like five times a quit rates of gold standard treatment when, when we did this controlled, controlled trial of mindfulness training compared to cognitive therapy, And we were just starting to play in the digital therapeutic space, so are piloting out how to do something in the detail: therapeutic space where smoking?

and so we were pilot testing, some of our work with the caribbean acquit up and getting feedback from you, his hers and they started reporting that they were changing their eating habits, and I at first I blew it off because, these local person. The quit smoking gains on average about fifteen pounds because they tend to substitute eating for smoking. Sorrow is thinking, just like by other clinic patients are probably in substituting food for smoking and they said no. No, no, no, no were actually changing. Are eating habits like we're, not snacking. much at my eyes popped out of my head and, I said, tell me more or and they said you know these techniques- that your teaching us to work with cravings for cigarettes are actually helping with our cravings for food. So as an addiction psychiatrist, I wasn't planning to morphine to looking at eating habits, but the universe was come. pulling me in that direction, so I couldn't ignore that

and so we that centres down the road of exploring how to help people with habitual eating. You make it to this end, the subtitle cheer new book, but let me just ask her to us question. Why do we eat when we're not hungry? Where would you like me to start evolution and probably right, yeah, that's a good place to start so abolition didn't set us up to eat when we're not hungry. It set us up to remember where food is who we could go find it again, and it also set us up to eat caloric lee laden foods so that we get back in the calories in times famine in modern day. Those mechanisms are still at play. Yet we have refrigerators and

delivery services and we also have engineered food like objects that are designed to get us to eat as much as possible, so very different environment now, but same evolutionary mechanisms. Food like objects. There wasn't me with called the readers or cheetos food oat cuisine, I believe, as defence architecture offer, ah contraire mon well played or be an issue. I am here I gotta get what you're saying and you talk about this in the book. The idea that there are the more sort of noxious corners. The food industry they're coming up with foods, it just basically impossible to resist because they figured out how to you know engineer it? Yes, yes, so, for example cheetahs

they dissolve in your mouth, so they, your brain, doesn't register that you ate something that city or eat something else. Ragged, that's designed and these foods become hard the resist when we're tired, I I've, heard I've it argued and maybe by you- and maybe I'm remembering this incorrectly- that when your stress or tired food, the especially like shady food or food, like objects, tastes better yeah there's this saying that actually learned in the diction treatment right. which is in a hungry, angry lonely, tired and that's when people are less likely to be able to resist temptation like cravings, and the same is true, especially in our food when you're hungry you gonna, do be moving towards food, but also it highlights the importance of emotions and is an interesting and high

commissioner, a mechanism because we learn those behaviors. Those aren't ingrained. This wife called stress eating for exam. If we learn to eat when we're stressed, that becomes a habit and a kind of a go too, when we are tired, when we're stressed were lonely all these things, all these emotional eating habits they get set up, not out of physiological hunger but out of emotion, there's a whole new category, that's been described, as called had donna hunger, which means that eating out of hedonism like this go out an emotional eating got it so you're you're using the word habit. That seems key here and I guess one question: why I'd like to hear you describe why you're using that word and, and maybe the difference between a habit and an addiction, I'm sure if you think of a habit, most habits that we have are helpful for

bible, so imagine when you wake up in the morning, if you had to learn how to walk. You know how to put on your clothes, how to make coffee right, we'd be exhausted before breakfast. so habits are set up as a very helpful mechanisms. I think of it. A second forget or you set a habit. You forget about the details and then you just do it What a habit is automatic behavior, you can do it without having to think so along the spectrum of habits at the far end of the spectrum is addiction, and that simple definition that I and in residency, was continued use, despite adverse consequences. So we can have it a habit and often people think of smoking as a habit in their addiction. They'll say: oh, this is my habit

but the continued use, despite adverse consequences, is where it gets into the realm of addiction. Some exams yeah does make sense, and so why is the word have so important. Why are using in the context of food and How do I know whether my habit of occasionally overeating something has tiptoe in to addiction, even though there are occasionally adverse consequences? Sooner mean yes. So here using habit deliberately because it helps to differentiate what were evolution early, healthy and helpful mechanisms for hang calories into to help us survive and those mechanisms that a kind of gotten co opted in modern day. That having us consume calories when we don't actually need them and so leading can range from just mindlessly snacking when were reading a book or watching television or watching a movie

two over eating when we just habitually finish our plate. New and clean played club that type of thing, but all of this all into the same general category of behaviour in terms, if we're doing that just automatically were not really paying attention when we argued you make in the book they fund, compelling is that we experience anxiety as something that's negative, that's happening to us. We feel bad for ourselves when we realise that were anxious, whereas we experience over eating is something bad, that's happening to us, but something bad that we're doing a sin that we are committing does, and this was I dont know where that differentiation happened. But this is something that a lot of people not their head. When I say that this is actually a conversation, I think I was having with my editor when there was first putting the book together and that distinction

im out so clearly you've done all my work with anxiety. People come to my clinic, as you know, helped me with anxiety and with eating it's like they feel like they have to do it themselves. It's like it's their fault. Yet the two actually share a pretty common mechanism which is habit upright and your people who ever heard you on the show before probably won't realize I give you come here and you ve written a great book about the fact that you view anxiety as a habit to us or a mental habit. Yes a thirty second recap on that was is actually still probably the biggest discovery I had in my clinical practice and also might neuroscience research was

This little known assertion put forward in the eighteen eighties that anxiety could be driven like a habit and the long and short of it is in a anxiety triggers the mental behaviour of worrying and that mental behaviour feels rewarding enough to our brain makes us feel like we're in control, or at least that we're doing something that it feeds back and says: hey next, I'm your anxious! You should worry the problem there is that worrying. Does it actually? It just makes us more anxious. So that's the anxiety habit, loop in a nutshell, and we can actually see how eating is very much related to anxiety as well It was actually somebody in our it right now that head said, hey, I'm missing. That anxiety is triggering me to stress, He knows you can see these habit loops around feeling of anxiety it might lead some

worry. It might lead somebody else to go into the kitchen and distract themselves by eating some food. I've been there we're gonna talk in detail about your. method in twenty one day, challenge for dealing with mindless eating over eating. But let me out some more questions at a kind of higher level. You argue that diets and measuring counting calories better, etc. Don't work based on What was, I think this will be a new argument for some people are really, a lot of people. You know a lot of people this time of year. New year's are going on diets and they do it because they believe it works the diet. history is huge and are we talk a lot on the show. I talk a lot about how diets don't works of many of our listeners, probably familiar with the argument We may have numerous risen around new year's and they may be a believing that actually can and should go on diet s. Okay, so

It's me, I would say in need, not look any farther than the scientific literature to see what the problem is with dieting in further. by that doesn't want or the scientific literature most. I understand that I like to do that. You probably like to do that. Not everybody dies there's this term called yo yo dieting. And so there is a lot that's been written about in terms of what with it the diet de jure is if it's well power based its more likely than not to fail, and so anybody that's tried dieting before knows what I am talking about, because there are now looking for the next one and the diet industries great at saying, hey, you know either it's the there is in calories out that formulas correct. It is correct, but they're saying you know: unity develop more willpower sign up for another year of our programme. To that's wine argument,

good for marketing, and the second argument is: oh you did that diet. What that guy doesn't work are diet does just stick with our diet, then you'll win, and so both of those are based on people following a set of rules and following rules is not our brains are actually great at doing that. Our brains are good at following an internal rules set, but not somebody else's book, or you know, as on t v, you know six weeks to a hollywood body or whatever willpower is more myth and muscle. Yet we like to think that we have willpower and that we can apply that to affecting our eating habits. So when we fail, we feel bad that it's our fault. It's not programmes for the worthy overall toxic culture. Sending us messages about pushing

to achieve essentially aesthetic goals that have nothing to do. With underlying health. You can be super healthy without six pack ebbs, I'm glad you're bringing forward because, yes, that's toxic as well I think we're moving in the direction of seeing that just because but he doesn't look. The way. That's dead models do doesn't mean that their unhealthy, and so the terms are starting to evolve. For example, were starting to use terms like clinical city as compared to obesity to differentiate those, which is, I think, a really nice step forward. But yeah would it with care losses, and you know nothing tastes as good as skinny feels right. You know that's a high bar for anybody to meet and I think, basically impossible in the long run, so you're you're setting yourself up for the yo yo, absolutely absolutely I've talked a lot on the show about intuitive eating, but I don't know that I've ever talked about it with you eve,

earlier than two innovating. I am, and I dont yet we ve talked about it. You know that operate It is in the show notes. I've talked about in a million times on the show, but I had this sort of regulatory podcast interview with evelyn tripoli, one of the odd mothers of intuitive eating right here on the show in a really had a huge impact on me and because I was heading into that interview. One of these guys who how did his calories and avoided certain foods as quota? Unquote sinful, and we know it is making so miserable, also sending not so healthy messages to my young son, and anybody around me that we should can and should be torturing ourselves to meet these kind of random aesthetic standards so I meet her in that she's like now how you should die, don't work a b and c listening to what some for profit.

But he is trying to sell you about what you should. I want you to listen to your body and and eat what you want when you want it with two caveats: one that you or actually tuning into how your body feels and two that you're using which he calls like gentle nutrition. So yeah, you don't want to throw all the rules and nutrition out the window, but you want to not use it as a cudgel against yourself. So that's the basics of. I e to it of eating. As I understand it, what's your view on? Oh, yes, I am a big fan. I think they wrote their book cheese. Twenty five twenty seven years ago long time ago, and it made a big splashing. It still is impacting in people view throughout the ages. I think it's a real, the nice accessible, digestible ha book

I how to really pay attention to our bodies, and I like how she highlights the. How did you put it and not bludgeon yourself, a nutrition? Our bodies are actually extremely wise when we pay attention to them and they know when were eating healthy food and we were not eating out. Even our bodies don't need a label scanner to determine what is healthy If we can really pay attention and really dial in it gets easier and easier and easier, and our bodies gonna tell us thing, and so even there I think intuitive eating can play a big role in nutrition like how do you feel after you eat a beggar doritos verses eat, something how We all know this. Absolutely we all know it, but we are- and you argue this in your book- we ve been right goon, then damn manipulated and confused in the fog by these.

billion dollar industries, multi billion dollar industries- are there trying to get us to follow their rules instead of list? Jerome bodies- and you know just to amplify your point. I just came back, from a four day boys. Yup with my son. He came with me on a business trip and you know when I'm traveling with my son, we tend to eat a lot of you know. You know you're old boys, like french fries and hamburgers and candy in that kind of stuff, and I put my premature: let him eat what he wants and I it is easy to too much junk. He will want something healthy and the same for me, now, if I go on a trip with him, we need a bunch of crap. I start craving healthier food because it makes me feel, but yeah and said, sounds like you, both you and your son of calibrated europe, it is to really be able to see. How could it be house briefly read out. They fear that something that I can do. Yes, yes, I think kids have this naturally debate until society sets in on. Yes, Yes, they are fighting an uphill battle in one sense

in another sense. Its relatively simple, especially begin set some of these habits at an early age of paying attention to our parties when we eat our bodies will they'll tell us what to do. intuitive eating tipp. Where are you and in terms of the programme that you recommending to people which again we are going to get into in detail? We are on weight loss because, as I stand it in intuitive eating world there not trying to get people to lose weight, they're trying to actually to do something much more radical witches. revolutionise your relationship to your body and to food, and once you do that, you'll just arrive at your. What nature wants your body to be? Yes, so, with regard to weight loss, some people have what I'll call clinical obesity where they have health effects that are directly

aid to their weight, for example somebody that right about in my book. I was four hundred pounds when he first came to see me and he had a lot of health related effects due to his clinical obesity. So he had hypertension, he had a fatty liver. Sickly. His livers like patty, because he was gorging himself on fast food. He also obstructive sleep apnea and he had held anxiety, which was ironically, he was going to fast food to try to soothe or numb himself with Oh so there I would say it can be healthy for someone to lose some weight in some circumstances and the interesting part is he tried everything to lose weight and suicide? Don't try to lose weight, just pay attention as you eat and hugh, He was a hundred pounds for anything. Maintain, those gains is continuing to keep that gradual way laws, but he said

The easiest way losses ever had any feels much healthier. So for some people again, like your saying their body is gonna. Tell them to do, and not necessarily because their thing, I need to lose twenty pounds without a lot of folks report that just by paying attend in and what will you can get into some these details, but is there attention and stop eating when their full? They naturally lose ten to fifteen pounds, because they're just put in more colors and actually need I'll make sense to me. I think the where I get a little concerned- and maybe I shouldn't be- is if you dangling weight loss out there are you playing into what's called diet culture, but sounds to me that you're saying now, though, I'm only put weight loss out there. If you knew it in order to like get healthier like genuinely healthier. Yes,

Your habit is not a weight loss book. It's to help people change their relationship to eating two more questions before we get into the three points If your actual plan, you mentioned somebody who was four hundred pounds, but is your book for people who are clinically obese to use your term or for people with serious eating disorders. It certainly can be helpful for people with clinical obesity. It can be helpful. I've worked a lot with people with binge eating disorder, but this book is not for people with anorexia nervous, horrible, indian nervosa. This book is not for them and actually give some resources in the book. If somebody in start treating the introduction where I clearly say this is not for somebody with anorexia, her some resource, got it and final question is: what's the evidence to support your approach over others? Have you, on clinical studies on what you're about to teach folks? Yes, so I wouldn't feel comfortable writing a book,

unless I actually done their research myself in this, isn't just like reading other people's research that to be able to write about my experience cynically, but also, more importantly, my experience with my lab doing these studies. So that's for this book comes some of the evolutionary stuff. Obviously I didn't nodded Leonard biologists, so I draw little boat that history from that, but that's just the preface so to speak of the book this is really based on our clinical study. with our eat right now, programme what it, whether those studies show off. For example, there is a study.

Led by actually mason at you csf, where she found a forty percent reduction in craving related eating in people that used to eat right now up, and we actually published a study a couple of days recently where we can look at the reward value and how it shifts in somebody's experience pretty quickly, and we can talk more specifically about that. That's that's the second step of the end of the programme that's all very helpful. So you talked about the steps of the programme was dive into the programme. You structure it in your new book as a twenty one day. Challenge with three parts in the first is mapping your habit loops. That's the first part. What does that mean mapping your habit loops? Yes, so

What I've seen of the last twenty years or so in my clinic as if my patients can't identify what their habit leaps are. They can't work with them, so we start with simply having them map out the three components of their eating habit. So, for example, if it stress eating it tends to be stressed, is the trigger that's first element which leads to eating right. That's the second one, and then the result of that is that they distract themselves. They none themselves there. Some type of a word from a neuroscience perspective and not behaviour reward relationship forms this. What's called positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement this case because it's making something unpleasant go away so that feeds back so that the next time somebody stress their brain brings a balance as hey. Why don't you go and eat something at work for your last so there can be stress: eating habits lives. There can be just mindless

ding habit lips. This happens a lot when somebody's reading a book watching television. This can even be that over eating or somebody just finishes all the food on their plate because they ve learned to do that as a kid. So that really the first step is pretty straightforward: identifying the behaviour and then mapping backwards forwards like what was the trigger and what's the result of the rope, blurred and I'll, even say that they can make it easier than mapping out all three of those elements. The triggers are actually the least important part of the equation, because they're just what sets the behaviour ocean, but from my reward based learning standpoints, if you avoid triggers, you can avoid them for a little bit, but they do actually change the law. Where value in changed the behavior, you just kind of put it off for a little while, so it doesn't dismantle the loop at it's core. Oh, so that's interesting, I would just, thinking about my own, where I mindlessly eat.

In its went on board, and at the end of a meal and their stuff on the table bore even on my. But I know I'm not, however, just eating in that supercharged. If I'm tired or stressed so that's the trigger The behaviour is, I eat when I'm not hungry, and the reward is some sort of temporary distraction. Leave from the emotion that I dont want to feel exactly yeah nice mapping What I'm missing there is that the reward is a piece of shit, because I at a temporary relief, but I actually feel like garbage like in the not too distant future. So why can't? I just add the fourth part of the loop and cut the whole thing short of the good news, as you can, but often we are lulled into these rethink of these is the brief relief reward

pathways where it's like. The immediate relief just feels good enough and then we're going to rationalize it afterwards, where it's at oh it wasn't that bad or maybe I'll change next time or all these things that don't compete especially when we're tired or brain says. Oh, this is the path of least resistance. Just do it just eat it And, as you were saying a moment ago, avoiding the trigger. So if you know avoiding the long languorous end of meal, where I'm you know it around talking to my friends or talking to my family and maybe I'm starting to get a little bored or restless, and that cues me to overeat Avoiding that trigger is not the answer. There's something else. That is the answer. Absolutely right. So so we can say well, if I buy the trigger it's not going to trigger the behaviour that is true but avoidance itself. Takes a lot of work and its fragile at best, because we can avoid those things forever.

lay like am I going do air eddie as soon as I'm full get over the table? Floss my teeth brush of them and we know the clearer about them, over for me, you guys can sit here and talk. I'm gonna like check my found exactly yes, You can see the downsides due to the avoidance piece, our common up, Jed talks about why changing behaviour may not require you to dig into your past in some deep therapeutic way. Something here the hunger test, why you should focus on contentment instead of satisfaction and another judge, termed the pleasure plateau, it's great to begin the year by clearing out your closet, getting rid of those.

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lie down ratio and Matthew hepburn. One of the things you say in this portion of the book is an interest in this. Is that mapping your habit loops while it may seem sort of surface level on minos, from one angle is quite sufficient, don't need to go on earth your child the traumas or all the other stuff that might be driving this? Yes, so those tend to trigger habit lips, but they have happened in the past, Asked so to change any behavior, you have to actually work with the habit itself and if you look at the equations, Let's say are good explanatory models for behaviour. Behavior change weathers amateur breaking a habit. They don't have trauma or childhood history or anything like that in the equation. It's really depend

dine in it, we ve got some reward value set for the behaviour right. Remember that certain forget and then our brain. It's only gonna change behaviour based on what happens. Which is paying attention in. This is really the second step of the book. Now I want him so this isn't to say that we should ignore- or not honour or not do therapy, or whatever is helpful for people you like. If somebody wants to work with trauma history or things like that, that can be very helpful from a therapeutic standpoint, but from a habit. Change standpoint is really focusing on the habit itself in a what's happening in the present, because that's how we reinforce habits. and that's also how we can on reinforced those habits. We ask that makes a lot of sense. You do maybe you're, not arguing against them

but you're just saying that as it pertains to breaking this habit, it might not be absolutely and utterly in irretrievably. Relevant, yes, well said: so september to his interrupting your habit, loops with awareness. So in short. This goes back to what we talked about earlier were well powers, more myth and muscle. So if we want to interrupt a habit. We want to change a habit. It actually requires one thing which is awareness right and then something- I know you talk a lot about on this show so awareness, Think of it is bringing this curious awareness to its happening. So why is that so important for changing habit? Well, if you look at equations, and these actually go back to the nineteen seventy's. They explain behaviour from animal models, mice, other animals to humans in a we as humans as well. The formulas are actually pretty soon

it's basically carnal word values based on the previous reward value plus an error term and that errors can be differentiated into generally one of two things at once called the positive or negative prediction error and what that means is all its use, a concrete example and their will explain it. So, let's say that's a new bakery opens up in my neighborhood. So if I go there- and I have a certain reward value of chocolate cake in my mind- for how much I like chocolate cake like there's, a certain chocolate cake- is really good. Bye. Go there eat their chocolate cake inside the best chocolate cake that I've ever had. I get was called a positive dictionary, meaning it's better than predicted. I get a dopamine spritz in my brain and I learn hey. This is a good bakery, come back here and eat more cake, so it makes sense yes. So the other scenario is that if I eat the cake- and I'm like man, I've had better- I get what's called

negative prediction error and that negative prediction error says hey this cake is not as good as you know, your standard, so don't bother. Dont come back and eat more cake right, so more dopamine spreading more learning both of those require awareness. If I go into the bakery- and I get a one call and I'm you know it's a really important call- and I get my cake and I'm I'm talking on the phone and I'm really paying attention to the conversation. I look down and the cakes gone. I have to do it again. you have my wife said: hey. How is the cake? I don't know, I didn't pay attention, it wasn't, so but then it took me away from my conversation. It wasn't so bad that it took me away from my conversation. So that error term is critically dependent upon awareness, so we have to pay attention. That's what's going to change behavior

so that's where it simple, not necessarily easy, but its that's the critical behavior change, method or technique or tool. If you want to think of it as a tool, awareness is a tool. and the nice thing is, we all have awareness, it's just a matter of training it, bottom line here is where the rubber hits the in your plan to get us to turn the volume down on overeating where the rubber hits the road is paying attention before. During and after we eat. Yes, yes, and this is where he meditation habit, while not absolutely must can be quite helpful because in mindfulness meditation we are tuning up our ability to pay attention and be extremely helpful way, especially if somebody as a regular practice where they have to their awareness of their body

extremely helpful. So, for example, when I first started working as a psychiatrist, I was working with doing a group with a bunch of and with been eating disorder- and it took several weeks of these weekly group, michael visits for me to even realise that they had no I'd idea. What the difference was between hedonic and homeostatic hunger. Basically, they said. Oh, I have a craving. I have a craving aid and that they couldn't tell the difference of whether this was their body. Saying hey, I need calories or if Is there a motion? Saying hey, I need soothing, so that's an example of people who just hadn't had the opportunity to speak calibrating their awareness and paying attention to their bodies, so that was one of the places that we started was hey, let's tune in, let's start paying attention, while a meditation register helpful, you're, not saying you can't do my

and if you're, not a daily active meditated. Absolutely, and in fact, we ve seen in our clinical study that these inform all practices. These informal awareness practices are really the key element here and they can be inspirational for people where were they start to see results by paying attention as they eat compared to shaming themselves for not meditating, just like they're not exercising and not yet. Is it not that so I really sir, wherever somebody's at ends in everybody, if their eating? Let's start there, you don't need to take extra time. It's just. starting to bring some curiosity in as somebody eats and said, can start to pay attention like you're saying before the oh Why am I reaching for food? So I think it is the why? What and how like why? My reaching for food am I I, or am I emotionally charged, you know or habit? What am I reaching for it

reaching for comfort food, because I need some comforting or am I reaching for something healthy and then how my eating am I paying attention they eat, or am I just gobbling it down or remaining at mindlessly, while I'm doing something else gets to amplify your point about not needing to be some heavy duty meditate or in order to do your plan which really It involves a lot of free range on the go, informal, meditation practice or just paying attention bract. You have to use the word meditations, but to amplify that point, I've had periods of time where I've been practicing inspired by you, words have two hours a day of meditation and I've been so busy in so stress that I would still be of reading, because I wasn't bringing my mindfulness into these key moments. He, and so I think, you can almost start with bringing mindfulness in awareness are paying attention into. Informal moments during your life and in reverse engineer that into a meditation practice. The absolutely- and I think that, just

Nobody does glosses over that. I think that bears repeating right. So we can start with these informal practices. We can see how the informal practices help us their rewarding unto themselves and that can fly A positive feed forward live where our brains is I was helpful what else might be held Oh, maybe I'll actually try meditating okay, so talking about some of these informal practices. You have an exercise, I don't want to talk you above. It's called the hunger tests. Can you walk us through it yeah, so we formed they did. This is actually based on my the group that I was working with these folks. It had been eating disorder. We just love. To see whether the typical symptoms come up when somebody is hungry. What are the typical?

in a feelings in symptoms are come up and somebody's stressed, for example, are emotionally charged and what comes up when somebody's board cause there's a lot of board eating out. There was so people can it we think of it as a check box, for example, somebody can feel restless when their physiologically hungry or when their stressed out right and so there overlap between some of these feeling, so we have people just gonna, go through a checklist and hard to notice, like oh well, what's happening in my ex and which is in itself already had a son awareness exercise, so to speak, ray we're getting people to pay attention and then we have them think back to or women's last I'm you ate right was it six hours ago versus six minutes ago, and because that can I'll differentiates. If the restlessness is there

you ate six hours ago. That might mean something different than if the restlessness is there and you hate six minutes ago right so it might. The six minutes might be hey that might be more of a strasser an emotional response as compared to the six hours which might behaviors in your stomach needs filling so having people just do that checklist helps them start to calibrate. Oh this comes up due to emotions out. This comes up due to actual physiological hunger and just like these women in my group, it helps people to start soon, recalibrate kind of get to know their body again, so they can. Start to see out this what physiological hunger feels like? Oh, this is what a craving to eat feels like to avoid thanks so that they can give start by being more informed about what's happening in their experience, as it did them, stating the blazing with obvious here. But this is the crucial.

I to breaking the habit likes you you have a craving, and then you investigate and That move of investigating is what can stop you from eating when you're, not hungry, which breaks the whole loop. Yes- and I wouldn't say it is a crucial. I would say it is a very helpful element, and so what our research found was that the crucial element is changing, that reward value, which also takes awareness. Think of this, the test as a calibration? So it helps us care, a break that awareness, so we can pay more attention and then the craving tool is that critical, reward valued changing experience. So we have to calibrate. Ok I am I hungry, am I not hungry, but we also have to pay attention to see how rewarding is this behaviour for me right. This goes back to the positive negative prediction error, so for example, if we're over eating first, we have to pay them

a body to see when we're full and when that becomes over eating, and then we have see how rewarding or unreal wording that over eating feels this is actually a critical difference between thing. Like satisfaction and contentment I this may, I'll make splitting hairs, but it's actually really important, so somebody can eat a large holiday meal, though all I was satisfying, but how contents did they feel ready, is actually a subtle difference between those two and the contentment is really the marker that we're looking at, because somebody can be pretty discontent specially they pay attention to their stomach, which is saying: hey you ate too much. This doesn't feel so good right, and so we found that country It was a better differentiate. Her then satisfaction was we had to do a bunch of testing to to actually find that out and see that that was the case

So we can actually use contentment as a meter and have people pay attention as they eat right. What type of food? they eating. How much are they eating and how content they feel afterwards. What that dies is if they feel discontent, and after they over it, for example- and this is one of the studies that we published a couple of years ago, if they really pay attention, as they overeat that reward value in their brain, shifts below zero in few as ten to fifteen times of them doing that ten to fifteen right, which makes sense because, from an evolutionary standpoint, our brains

It can't be chased by the saber tooth tiger twenty times to realize that that's dangerous right. We have to adapt pretty quickly to our changing environment, so our bodies are actually set up to change pretty quickly when they get accurate information, but we have to give them accurate information in that comes from paying attention from being aware as we eat that all makes complete sense. I think we're I'm a little confused as if If done the hunger test correctly, won't that stop me from overeating and therefore won't be. There won't be anything to pay attention to anything negative to pay attention to not necessarily so the hunger task just helps us tell when we're hungry versus when we're eating out of a you know, a craving for an emotion it doesn't necessarily help us dial into how rewarding or unrewarded that eating behaviour is got it. Yes,

his yes vote, so it'll it'll. Let me know okay. Is it actually time to eat right now, but they won't tell me when to stop yes yeah exactly, and so I talk about this concept of, pleasure plateau in the book and I've seen this a lot clinically and it's very simple concept that a of my folks have found helpful. Where will have people pay attention as they eads and ask themselves with each bite. Is this more rewarding are less rewarding than the last by two and our brain is set up, especially are hungry. To say: ok, please bar plays more plays and if we eat, if we don't need to quickly because it takes about fifteen minutes first stomach to register fullness. So we don't need to We can start to see that that's going to taper off at first, I can say more, please more! Please then I can say yeah, maybe one more bite. Okay, maybe ok! Ok, I'm done! We hit that pleasure plateau where our brain is saying. You've had enough.

If we don't pay attention. We go right off the cliff of over indulgence, which is the clean played cupboards in it. Actual over eaters, all the stuff or were not paying intention, but if we pay attention carefully, We can actually stop when were fall, and that is more rewarding than over and done. So we ve gotten to winds there. One is we haven't eaten more than we need, and also it feels better. Our bodies during a saying hey, that was a good thing notice on none of it. Requires, like. Oh, I shouldn't ovary. I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't do that right, I'm nice! I should do the diet tells me to do. I shouldn t this specific food, because you know I saw some bad say I should needed, whatever its more about listening to your body and letting our innate natural reward system, kick it absolutely and I think pragmatically, that's what the intuitive eating

is all about, and it's nice twenty five years later, do the scientific studies to show what their pointing out you know where we can, but this in clear, specific neuro scientific terms, so I think it might be worth saying a little bit more about you. You use this term mindful eating and you have given us some tools: the hunger test, the pleasure plateau, but is there more to say in terms of the practicality of mindful eating? Yes, I think there are. I think that's a really good question, because often there are alot misconceptions around mindful eating. You know you ve got it slowly. For example, my phone space dress, reduction, there's this famous in a raise and exercise getting people to pay attention, sometimes, for the first time you know they spent twenty minutes, eating a single race- and you know that type of thing. So I think there are a lot of

conceptions out there about what my eating is, and so I would say why can be helpful- is to really get back to the basic principles of what's the core of my fleeting witches really being curiously aware as somebody eads, and so, if we don't have thought minutes to sit down and pay attention to each bite of a meal weakened start by paying attention wherever we can, which could start with like how hungry am I right it and paying attention there or and my eating, because I'm hungry or my stressed for things like that, and then when we do have even a few, it's or even a few moments to pay attention as we eat weaken just really, see. If we can remove the distractions and just pay full attention as we, so we can really taste whatever going into our mouth, whether it's in a food or drink or whatever that helps with two things: one. It help

is enjoy what were eating. If it's in a food that we enjoy, It can also help. I start to differentiate these chemical crave agenda materials in a like the doritos the cheetah from things that are healthy, to give a concrete example of that to be addicted to eating gummy worms. So when I see paying attention when I gummy worms I started noticing I still get this cringe fail again when I remember it like this sickly sweet, the troll m type product. The mouth feel is weird their country to swedes and they kind of make me odds to eat the next one. Well, I'm chewing on the one that in my mouth, so I didn't notice that forever. This wasn't until I think, grand cooler residency that I started really paying attention to coming and us these aren't actually that good now we can have

me. Worms or gummy bears are gummy anything in the house. I look at it and I just remember the last: I'm not the higgs, in contrast, I pay attention you're my favorite foods is blueberries and by you, but they have this perfect sweetness and I dont crave the next one: I've just enjoying what meaning, especially like a really plump crispy juicy blueberry from sure you know what I'm talking and I dont over indulge I'm not looking for the next one in a very content after eating those blueberries and needless to say, my body thanks me for the blueberries over the gummy worms, as I was saying to him, I'm thinking and of loses too much of a non sequitur there's a red pill aspect to all of this, We are being manipulated by the larger culture trying to tell us that we should look a certain way by these food coming Is that engineer food that makes us want more, even while we're

chewing the thing that's in our mouth and what you're suggesting here, and I think you know standing on the shoulders of the intuitive eating? Folks before you is to like, take your power back. Yes, absolutely. We as individuals a tremendous amount of power, and it really stems from simply learning how to pay attention. And be curious, and the nice thing is those curiosity muscles build themselves as we see how powerful they are. You know it doesn't like I've gotta go and work out. My curiosity muscles is like oh, that was helpful. Maybe I'll do that again and again and again, so for people who want to try my violating the next meal. We what we gotta do a hundred as we're heading into the meal and then try to simply pay attention to the best of our ability, while were eating too

soon into the society. Cues. Are we for or not then see what it feels like. The end of the meal, whether we ve eaten the right amount or not enough or too much, and let the brain start. Learning yes, and I think there are some very simple training wheels that we can add to that, for example, putting our fork or spoon down between bites so that were really paying attention and the other thing is just to say the obvious that were putting all the distractions away. So many of us have our phone out a book out are sitting in front of the television when we eat. So this is really about sharing a meal with ourselves, he I for one of the first Big changes I made when I got into intuitive eating is not eating with my phone. Not eating and further tv just actually taken a break to eat, and this outcome

brings me to the next question, because in the intuitive eating world you don't have to eat monk like alone, although we know it that's great. It certainly counts to eat, on distracted with other people, but other people can be distracting. So how do we mindfully eat? in social situations, whether its family, dinner or a party. Yes, a really good, and that is a challenge I'm not gonna say oh here's an easy solution to that. I did that can be very challenging. There are a couple of things that can be helpful here for people to play with. And this is really about choose your own adventure- see what works for you. So, for example, If somebody is getting into a big conversation, they can notice that and put their fork down. have the conversation and then in the end. For a while, in the conversation take a moment to take a few bites mindfully there thing we can do is invites other people that were having a meal with two payment.

and as we it and it's not like hey now, I'm gonna do this. My fleeting exercises, like wow that food looks really good. Let's exe, Are you know a coming to take a bite? What is this really tastes like you know, and so we could even do this in a shared environment as- shared exploration, because so many people are paying attention as they eat. It's often welcomed like oh. I didn't notice that before o, while there some there's some lenin notes Or whatever, with my broccoli ear or whatever I'm eating, and so we can be cream it is when we know what the core principle is, which is to pay attention as we eat and not habitually be. You know, shovel food into our mouth, when we're in conversation and there, I think there are lots of ways that people can play with that and be very creative with how they implement for me the biggest challenge all these years. In too you know, I mean first learned mindful eating when I went on my first meditation retreat in two thousand and ten and united meditating forbid it

and I ve been in mean, engage in intuitive eating for a couple of years. For me, the biggest problem, there is remembering to do it and not just rushing through everything, because I am rushing so much does that familiar to you, is sending you struggle with his well, you see in your patients. Yes and yes, and yes the remembering, and so one thing but we can do to help this, and I do this. A lot with folks in our irena programme is even if we ve gone through a meal or a snack, or something like that where we ve done it mindlessly, we can go back and look at the results. If we I call any emotional or embodied feel to what the result was. It still counts for learning, and what I mean by that is that I think this is like this retrospective second step.

Where we can. We can look in the river mirror, as were driving pass, are in a car crash of it, in eating episode, and we can say what did I get from that? we can feel into it. You know it's like oh wow, just I felt guilty it felt I had the gut bomb or whatever. If we can still feel into the emotion we can still learn from it. because our brain I'll say oh yeah, that wasn't so great was it so we can get that retrospectively and it's still counts think of this as building our disenchantment database right. So as we pay attention to something and get those names prediction errors we become less excited we become did enchanted with dad eating and there actually goes all the way back to put psychology ecology in the risk. You may be familiar with the king personality. He came to the buddha for advice about overeating. Did you know that? No, I didn't know

actually, a knowledge of you may know him he's been on the issue of great. So a knowledge this. This western monk resident amazing scholar right, a couple of commentaries heightened the buddhist view secondly, on over eating and basically plus a naughty. Was that sounds like for you? If you can interpret the suit is correctly are accurately that he was probably had some clinical obesity going on and the buddhist said basically pay attention as you eat. If something like you know, people who are constantly mindful know their measure with the food they ve gotten or something like that? and what are you saying is like if you pay attention when you eat your knocking over it. That's the pleasure platter that we ve been talking about and he goes on to say all of the health benefits that come from that. So the buddhist psychology was describing this

back in the day you know centuries before paper was even invented, but it's the same principle right. It's about that reinforcement learning and becoming disenchanted, and all that disenchantment needs is awareness. I sometimes think bout. You know when you get a new iphone and I apologise to anybody who doesn't use. I funds, and maybe I'm not your item. I never play with an android. Maybe this technology is on an android too, but when you get it I found in Europe has to learn your face and you have hold it all over. You have to move the phone around in its learning the contours of your face, and you can see that its learning and learning and learning and learning and learning and being a. Finally, it's like a guy got your yes, and so now, at any time, you hold your face up in front of his phone. It's gonna unlock, I feel like that happen. with the brain all the time you are just teaching and teaching and teaching and at some point bang it gets it and you get disenchanted. You don't want to do that stupid thing any more! Yes, yes,

and this also goes back to the biggest psychology there's a lot written about exploring gratification. To its end, the buddha wasn't about willpower he was about awareness and he was showing the power of awareness with all sorts of behaviors. You know it was something like It wasn't until I explored gratification to its end that knowledge and vision arose a k, a got enlightened and oh he's talking about Ike, seeing very very clearly how on rewarding these unhealthy behaviors are and so obvious- we're talking about eating. But this also extends to things like new judgment or self judgment in Maybe we can talk about that a little bit, because this is really really critical, and I see this a time in our, programme and also in my clinic where people judges themselves. You know that think rob who I read about my book. I think he told me

for years and years. He would not have any mirrors in his apartment because he just couldn't it was loath to look at himself I'd say just didn't, have any mirrors, so there is a huge amount of self meant and there's a huge amount of societal judgment which we touched on earlier around. You know how we should look and that self judgment can actually, wine on healthy eating habits raid, so self judgment is and pleasant, so sometimes that can lead to eating I've had number of patients with been eating disorder who have get of emotions and then the way they see themselves as by binging on things, one in particular. Who would eat entire? large pieces in one sitting- and she was doing this like twenty out of thirty days a month- ends she actually being on top of a binge, because she would then have self loathing on top of her negative emotion

and the only way she knew how to cope was by eating. So, ironically, she would eat more so there is a huge amount of self judgment suicidally and we can apply the same principles to that where we compare what's it like when I judge myself. So what's it like when I'm kind to myself I know you ve been exploring in himself compassion, kindness alight. How does it sit with you? I find that I sometimes talk about shame as a kind of psychic constipation. So if you get stuck in of loathing and shame nothing gets learn it blocks the facial recognition Wolves and kindness doesn't mean you know letting yourself off the hook, its arab, a

and take me away type of bubble bath situation, it's more like talking to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend, you would tell a good friend the truth. Hopefully, when you can be honest with yourself, without getting into hatred and self loathing and castigation et cetera, et cetera, so yeah all that lands for me. yeah. I liked the second constipation and I like how you're differentiating I think of it as self indulgence is different than self care. Yes, we can meet our needs and that's critical, because often we need something like we're, lonely or angry or frustrated, or something and we're feeding our wants. By eating, for example, or judging ourselves cause it's something we can do verses meeting our needs, which is hey. I need some emotional support right now in a foods not gonna, provide that it's only going to provide a temporary distraction

so meeting our needs is really critical and it helps us step out of these old habits of feeding our wants coming up document talks about does something he calls the bigger better offer unforced freedom of choice and whether we can still gummy workers with the weather getting called her. Our skin need some extra t I'll see a surely if it tends to lean on the dry side, but we all know not all moisturising or made equal. You need a targeted heavy hitter to address your most pressing skin care concerns. Thankfully, drunk elephant has got your back. Their new bore a barrier repair cream is an ultra rich buttery face cream made, especially four chronically dry, skin or skin that just can't retain moister on its own with bore a barrier repair cream. You won't

to spend your day slobbering on moisturize, her to keep your skin hydrated its formulated with a six butter limpid complex boosts natural, Sarah might and highly chronic acid production and delivers clinically proven twenty four hour moisture. that restores and strengthens your skin barrier. Improve moisture. The redness and increase your skins elasticity bore a barrier repair cream. Does it all discover, bore a barrier repair cream at drunk, elephant dot com or online or in store at sephora. At this point, I'm wondering a little bit whether I have committed any journalistic malpractice here, because I feel like we ve stepped into the third part of the challenge that your laying out in the book the twenty one day challenge really announcing that we stepped into it? So the first part is met your habit loops. Getting a sense of what do you do You do the second

was interrupting your habit, loops with awareness paying attention so that you either don't do habitual thing or when you do. Wait. You realize that it cannot sucks. So then you don't do it going forward and then third, which we haven't listen named, but we are kind of talking about some of it, which is identifying what you call a bigger better offer. China we've covered some of this, but may be just be a little bit more explicit if you're up for it. Yeah I'd be happy to so here. This actually builds right on the step to so, if we think of relief based learning being in a really this, Progress on mechanism in our brains, it can help us become disenchanted with old habits like we ve talked about in a overeating, doesn't feel very good and that same mechanism can help protocol

behaviors that are more rewarding forward. So we can compare over eating too what it's like to stop when were fall and stopping when our fall. Is that bigger, better offer because it feels better, and so our brain is gonna naturally gravitate twice things that are more rewarding. The more rewarding thing could simply be stepping out of an old loop, such as over eating or snacking when we're not hungry or stress, eating or eating bunch of fast food is compared to healthy food. So any of these can be bigger, better offers. For me, a bigger, better offers, various compared to gummy worms right said. There's an example of this third step. Where I compare what's it like feed, gummy worms verses. What's it like t blueberries and not cognitive leona, be super clear here. This isn't me, king, oh yeah course, gummy worms have all these in a food colourings that are should be banned, did you ask? Is they ve been banned in europe forever? I got to us whether in those things I know

that those aren't how they ve army, but then knowing isn't good enough in our thinking, Brain is not nearly as strong as our feeling body. So what I'm talking about here is for going into my last experience when I had gummy worms feel into my last experience when a blueberries and letting my brain beat the decider to me. It's no brain. Right, blueberries, tastes better there, the bigger better offer it's easy for me to pick up worries over gummy worms. In fact you know, like I said I can't Remember the last time I've had a gummy worm cause I'm just not interested in this part of the book. The third part of the book. You talk about unforced freedom of choice. What does that mean? yes, so that came from one of our studies where, after about ten years of looking at these interchange patterns, we started doing focus groups of people in our program and we were trying to get

their own words in their own language, what they were noticing for this third step and what they described to us. This is, after a bunch of qualitative research. They were just, I been these elements, so one is this freedom of choice rate, so I can choose and they were using the words choice. This is from them and I can choose blueberries ever gummy worms that comes from this unforced freedom of choice. is emerging from embodied awareness. Right said the body says: hey choose this choose blueberries over gummy worms because their more rewarding. So I love that language, because it's not mine, it's theirs and their describing beautifully exactly what this third step is all about. It's about paying attention noticing what the result of a behavior is, and then that leads to this. freedom of choice as compared to this food jail. The people often put themselves in you because of food based rules. You know,

Indeed, this I should need dash right. There is no freedom of choice, sir. This is somebody else telling you what to do the freedom of choice comes from this wisdom and the wisdom comes from The awareness that helps calibrate our system over time in yours, How can one ever eat a few gum worms and without it being you know, like mindfully, too few gummy worms and enjoy the men to you know, call it a day. Absolutely yes! by immediate responses, will why would I get yours, but that's just me so they're, my maybe people that art disenchanted with gummy worms as I am so what highlighting here is this again is not about food rules right. You should need, gummy worms. This is about going need, gummy, worms and this also very in line with intuitive eating he gummy worms see what happens, yeah go for it, and people might notice

Oh, I just want a couple of chips and that's: ok, I'm thinking of one of my clinic patients who used to eat in entire bag- and this was in a snack size back, but tire bag of dictatorships every night, and she did this the bonding exercise, it wasn't she did this debate. with her daughter, so she and her daughter would watch television show together ends. She would just this entire bag mindlessly, so I said guy need them just pay attention, as you do so. Can you guess how many potato chips she stopped doubts as she started paying attention to dinging, yet there was do I collar might do potatoes if later because after about so when you really pay attention as probably enough for a week ago. I don't know about you joy, potato chips, but they're pretty salty, there's no getting around that, and so after a couple of potato chips

put him down in that's exactly what my patient it. I guess I just keep Coming back to like, I still am all these years. he'll do pay attention like I forget to do this, and you know I mean I don't do it that often, but you know from travel my son and tired in this latter junk food around I just mindfully eat a bunch, I still do this so like I'd I'd fine. I'm not reach some point where the disenchantment has clicked in so doing not that I don't fuck up anymore yeah, that's normal it's, and so, if something is not terribly unrolled Starting right, it's gonna be a slower role in terms having that disenchantment build, and it may be that nothing wrong with indulging every now and then it also helps remind us what it feels like when we in a when we don't so you mentioned, you know, you start craving healthy food. Again, that's your body,

system, saying hey, not back on track, because that's like a force thing, but it's like hey. You know this path over here. You like that you're gonna walk on that a little bit more, and I can do speak from my own experience, but over time, as that path becomes more well worn. My body prefers it more and more and more and more, and so there are fewer time, when I find myself in reaching for the whatever early in this conversation. We talk about trauma. I want to come back to it, because we talk about the fact that you don't need go on earth all of your childhood traumas in order to understand the basics of a habit loop and yet you do come back to trauma the book, because as you know, and as many listeners no part of trauma is a dissociation from your body which is adaptive in the moment. So if you're a kid in something have an adverse event you can

dissociate because it unites the minds way of protecting you, but that means you're really even more cut off from your body than most of us, are in this culture and so these techniques of awareness day you recommending can be quite difficult for people who experience trauma. Absolutely I'm glad you bring that up. So if somebody's had from history that- backing them in modern day in a sometimes people had dramatic histories and they can move on from them. moved on in their lives other times it seems b Wang somebody down and so certainly Having some trauma informed therapy or other types of trainings can be very, very helpful in big. Release that and I've seen they give somebody in our unwinding anxiety programme who is in his sixties and heat, add some pretty severe childhood trauma and the way we kind of talk through it ends he came to this conclusion that he needed to honour his child.

itself and the only way that his child itself could protect him in those moments when he was a kid was to worry right cause. That's the only thing he control over, and so It was kind of like a pair of shoes that he'd been wearing forever and they no longer fit, and he was realising that the worrying was actually wishing him down. It was hurting him now in his sixties, so he needed to honour his childhood itself in terms of like this the best that I could do in those terrible circumstances, and I can move from that I can get a new pair of shoes, and so I think it's really important to be able to honour ourselves in doing the best that we can and then so check to see to those shoes. Stop fit or are they actually hurting me final question for me is that I'm just wondering are that you know you and I are well paid white boots and there, our people and our culture and our society on this planet who do not pay

have the same access to food that we do because they don't have enough food or there in a what sometimes referred to as a food desert where they're just there is an access to that many types of food too, do if I'm listening and I'm and I fall into this category, is your plan doable for me, I'm glad you bring them because these social determinants of health are critical and so putting it bluntly, some people have more access to healthy food than other people. Full stop so here I think I'd love to see more, and I know a lot of people are advocating for this, but it's not happening as quickly as I would like to see so policy level changes where in a we're moving away from things like the corn subsidy that make I freaked discord, syrup very cheap and therefore fast, food very cheap. So if somebody is a single mother working three jobs taken care of three kids. She

get calories in our kids, and so there can be these- these very convenient ways that are inexpensive to feed our kids so darting there in I'd love to see that start with. Thing healthier than we have right now and a lot of that comes back to in a policy and and government regulations. So I think those are critical pieces. You know this. This book How going to solve everybody's problems? I think it can help us start see where we do have power as individuals, and hopefully it can also help us differentiate where or beyond us, and then we can advocate for that very needed change. Let me ask you one final question: How can you please just shamelessly plug your new book, your old books, europe's anything they won't be able to know about? be happy to sell I'll start by saying. There's this guy

an harrison. We did a odd and eating episode arrived and programme His ten percent happier than uppsala start there a lot of fun with that we recorded couple of years ago, and then my new book is of the hunger habits. Are you can get it anywhere? Books are sold? Please support europe in a book bookstores other book. The dimension is unwieldy, anxiety and then the owl. So they mentioned are eat right now and also unwinding anxiety. You can find information for all of those things on the doktor chide webs I daresay you d dot com and you can also find judd's immensely popular TED talk so go to the website sign up for all of it. Jed. Congratulations on this new book. Great work is all and great stock, you thank you really enjoyed the conversation thanks again to doktor judd. Always great talk to my guy

stay tuned for part, two of our series coming up on Wednesday with the writer virginia soul, smith. She s very provocative and, in my opinion, quite useful things to say. by the way. If you like to hear more from judd, we put links to his previous appearances on the show in which he has discussed anxiety, habits and addictions and even answered some listener. Questions put those links in the shone out We we've also put a link to the episode that I mentioned with evelyn tripoli that completely changed my own approach to food. In real time. You can actually Europe play a ten percent happened. Produced by Gabriel's ackerman, justine, davy, learn smith and terror. Anderson DJ cashmeres, our senior producer versus night, it is our senior editor kevin, o connell, as our director of audio and post production and kill me regular, is our

active producer, Alisha Mackey leads our marketing and tony magyar is our director of pod casts. Finally, nick thorburn of islands wrote our think, give like ten percent happier, I hope you do. You can listen early and ad free right now, by joining one replace, wondering app or on apple pie casts prime members Listen ad free on amazon music before you go, tell us about yourself by filling a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant.