This is the ten percent happier podcast hanging distracts unity, is one of the top complaints of mediterranean pretty much every human being and I've right now in an era that has been dubbed the info blitzkrieg Yesterday has spent years studying the impact of meditation on people who work in high stress professions, she's collaborated with the military first responders and elite athletes she's written a whole book about how to, in her words, a focus without all the struggle. Take back your attention from the pole of distraction and function at your feet. Doktor ami, she jaws professor of psychology at the university of miami, the director of contemplative neuro,

I am for the mindfulness research and practice initiative and author of the book peak mine, find your foot its own. Your attention invest twelve minutes a day. In this conversation we talk about what she means by peak mind she gives us the neuroscience of attention one a one. We talk about the benefits of contemplative practices for high stress groups, in what exactly is about meditation? That's helping these people. We talk about multitasking, verses tasks king simulation mode versus mindful mode, and she found It gives an answer to the question. I have gotten a million times, which is something to be effective. What is the least of meditation. You can do and still derive. All of the advertised benefits her who does carry a few scientific caveats, but its fascinating. Nonetheless, one quick note here. Episode is part of a two week series we're doing called deep cuts where we dip into the vast th archive to find some of our best and most popular epps it's to give you a measure of sanity during the holidays, but first it's

for a regular segment around here that we call bs be or blatant self promotion with the new year. Just around the corner, we ve got a couple amazing things: cooking on nepal gas stand over on the app are podcast series is gonna feature some sport is people. We know a talking they are non negotiable. The must have practices and principles that help them stay sane where to talk to the comedian and act. Your bill, Haider, creatively, channeling anxiety, the renowned psychotherapist astaire, parallel about one simple thing: you can do right now to increase your happiness. And on and on. This he'll series non negotiable kicks off on January? Third, meanwhile, over the ten percent happier app. We are skip The new year new EU energy, in favour of something work on the imperfect meditation, shout a kind of mindful mute button on shame. You will discover how embracing imperfection can help you improve your relations with meditation. The free challenge kicks off on January. Eighth, you can join in the act.

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already whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little bit more fun, your home might be worth more than you think, find out how much at air being dot com, slash, host. The he job welcome back the sharp great dear good to have you here, let me start with a very obvious question. What do you mean by peak mind? Yes, so, peak mind. It's not what you might think of his like a successor poster of in a woman on mountain top, all goals achieved it's about having full access to all of your capacities. Your foot well awareness as well as this ability to stave off distractions and use your minds resources to achieve what you want to achieve in life. Ok, so it's the ability,

have access to all your minds, resources- and you still in the book go to great lengths- helpfully, I believe, to point out that distract and there's nothing malfunctioning in you. If you are distraction s right- and I say: let me be specific, really attention. Resources is the key phrase. So distractions occur, let's even backup. It's not having distractions spontaneous thought, mental content, internal chatter- it will her extra distractions will occur. Sometimes those can actually be problematic and sometimes there not and in some it's a mind has been in being to maneuver through the lance, of what it means to be a human being, so that you, use these precious brain resources, in particular the brains, attention system too have success in the way you feel and will you perform and who you want to be so of europe,

mind. It doesn't mean that you're not having containing his thoughts or that your child screaming for your attention or a cat is me out, sighed the door whatever it just means that you can incorporate these quota unquote distractions in a healthy supple way that's part of it, but it's even going one step beyond that. It may mean that you are fatigued or irritable or distracted but you have an awareness of this particular state and can negotiate What is best to do next, based on that awareness, and I think that actually really important something I tried to give multiple examples of it's not that Everything's gonna, be rosy rainbows. Now, unicorn sunshine: it's that when you cultivate the mind in this way, and really it's I'm talking about a whole suite of contemporary practices having to do with my fullest meditation

you get to befriend your mind and in particular your attack. since system. In a way that gives you useful information about what you might do. With your mind and that moment in the next. So just disabused us of this notion that it's about being positive or it's about being caught and put at the top of your game because sometimes knowing I am completely ray damn right now, maybe shouldn't press sat down that email it's so useful, more useful Probably just pretending that everything is great. I believe you scientists call that medical mission, meadow awareness side, but love tat. I love that is built, fine down to see how the sophists occasion level, not just obviously a view as you continue to grow in this whole enterprise, but just the law, all of the conversation in this past has been really I've, just been kind of an observer and a fan to see how much more nuanced conversations been getting, and so I'm gonna take

opportunity they just at least voice. My distinctions between medical condition and meadow awareness? And yes, what I am talking about right now, when I just described is what I would call met awareness and the way that I describe or define meadow awareness is having an awareness of the current com hence in processes at play, in your mind, particular moment very different than cognition, close cousin, but actually quite different, because medical in some sense is thought or views you might have of your comment and processing the time window for medical condition is a bit longer psych like ten. make decisions in an exhaustive manner tend to be a maximizing organ? I usually don't remember names. Those would be really useful met. A cognitive feature, that you might know about yourself. A meadow awareness is right. Now I have no idea what this guy's name is very different versus

tend to be this way. I hope that that distinction is helpful. At least, let me see if I have granted by repeating it back to europe, medical ignition would be thinking out how you tend to think and awareness would be the ability to drop out of the thinking process, as is happening right now and to know it not judge mentally, yes the way to put it getting the raw data of what is transpiring in your phenomenology moment by moment. Do you urgent peak mind is an abiding create or a temporary state In some sense, were interested in the moment by moment? State and any kind of mental training. The notion would be if we cultivate these capacities. If we cultivate, the presence of mind non. Judgmental awareness focus woman, wanted receptivity when we want at moment by moment

the chances of us being able to call up that way making the mind more frequently and more sort of on demand will increase, so are it is in moving from morse. Date related presence to turning into a trade but in some sense, when we use the term trade is almost like we're saying we check the box got it done enlightened move on. And I dont feel that that's the way it is. I think that, just like physical. frankly, the body just because might have been an olympic level runner at some point doesn't mean you'll, always maintain that peak physique. You have to keep at it brain is no different, so in some sense we want to come. Hopefully, this is an active effort, full process that we must practice in order to benefit from. You mentioned that there's a suite of contemplative practices that we cannot employ to get a peak mind, and these are practice

say you ve been studying in your lab. Can you run through some of these sure sure Maybe it would even be helpful if I started out by describing attention and the brain systems of attention to connect the dots between why we chose these practices in something we call my from space detention training so using up ford, you owe me there either. I think so. You used the phrase we were texting last night and you used the phrase of the neuro science of attention, one o one. So I shall we found that to be fascinating. So if you want to start there and I'll meet you, I think that, for most of us who don't happen, Research lab that studies, the brains, attention systems when we hear that I'm attention, something very specific, comes to mind, and usually it has to do with this notion of focused our concentration, but when we think about attention as researchers from this field of cognitive neuroscience.

It's actually means something more than that. That's a part of it, but that's not the entirety of it. So when I say, brain science of attention when a one, when I really mean let's get like a fuller sense of what the systems and substance arms are too. Then I understand what it means to actually even train attention, so when I I warned you say that attention itself. Why do we have it? That's a that's a question I asked self, just very early on what what a weird thing that we have, a brain that pays attention and it comes out of just a really big problem that the brain had through the course of evolution, which was at some point the organism, got too that the sophistication level where it function in a manner where it needed access to more information from the environment, but could not possibly process everything it would potentially encounter,

and so attention was the solution devised, sub simple interfacing with the real world, and overcoming these computational limits of the brain, and so then you like ok, it's gonna sub sample reality will in what ways is it going to sub sample it? And- and this gets into how we might even start understanding the subsidy, some attention one way would be by certain contents, like the left side of this particular this, as probably, were I'm gonna, find my food or the right side it is where I tend to have predator. lurking, and I should be careful so just the nature of what you should select terms of space or a particular type of feature, etc, the way we could select or sub sample reality, especially we get more more sophisticated brains serve in time. So what's important right now, verses, something that I am I think about in the future or memory I have in the past a third way we might think about how we get a slice of

reality. Not the entire thing is based on and something that school relevant for what I want to do right now. What matters so just ass, the broad fit framing of how we can think about what attention might be doing it then, would you just let's get into some of the metaphor- is that I think are helpful to to think about it back to sir, the lay broad conceptualisation of attention is focused on that, absolutely something it does, and typically, I think about this as the metaphor like to use this like a flashlight. So whatever it is that that flashlights, pointing if in a dark and rumour but darkened walkway, alley path. Nature somewhere, wherever that fleshless pointing you're gonna, preferential access to information can be crisp and clear and useful everything. is gonna to sort of out of your conscious experience, car blacked out and This is called the brains, oriented system and just like a flashlight, we can direct that resource wherever we want it can be toward the extra invite. went, but we can also direct this resource internally.

Right now? I say you know: what's the sensor experience you have of your feet right now, We before I said that you weren't thinking about what was going on on the bottom of your feet, but As soon as I said that you could direct that flashlight to internal bodily, sensations get the information. Now it's crisper and clearer and more available to which is a really really cool thing we can use it only four sensory experience, but thoughts, concepts, emotions everything. So the cool thing about focus, the flashlight is this narrowing and really free, fine, grained, privileged processing of of certain kinds of information, different to be able to directed wilfully. It also gets grabbed and if you think about every time you hear the din of your phone or because your name, your flashlight, went to that sound. Essentially, so is capable of both being directed and being pulled, but you'll have privileged access. That would be we may put in the category of like. Ok, we got a sub sample parts. going on around me and some defined way. Now,

How you gonna capture, what's happening right now, privilege in time? That's what we call the alerting system The metaphor like to use for that one is like a floodlight, essentially broad and receptive, and what it cares about is what's going on right at this moment that you very nicely with this notion of men, awareness that we were just talking about it's like reception. low signal to noise ratio. If you want to geek out about the terms where nothing is privileged over anything else, the only thing that's really privileges. What's going on right now, so I'm not thinking about the past for the future, I'm here so. I think that the floodlight to serve a nice way to think about it, just in terms of broad and receptive and illuminating whatever's occurring, and then the I've been on. The answer is please anytime, hey doing this, but I just guy actually really dont like jumping in but to make sure I understand that so the flashlight, if we are going to think about a meditative term, yes flash lied in,

Station might be I'm really going to home in on the feeling of my breath at the my belly right now exactly whereas the floodlight would be open awareness, I'm just gonna. Let my senses rip and note whatever is coming up. In my mind, as it happens, without any prejudice, you got it exactly So these are my mapping onto already you're doing exactly what you'd out? Will you don't initially asked me what a practices them? relate to its ages, essentially described two different practices. I just totally still, you think it's oh, no, Great. That means that we're we're in sync you're getting where I'm going in your actually understanding. Why, from the brain signs point of you, especially in attention research. It was so thrilling to come across this whole field. Human endeavour called meditation practice, mapped and so beautifully too, what we were studying. You know in our lab in my lab, so let us stop

but the third system cause it actually gonna yokes together. The two others that we ve been talking about the third system really is regarding our goals and how we want to behave in any moment, and this is something called central executive system are just executive functions and Term executive is the same one. we think of when we think of an executive, other company, the exact its job is not to do every single task that the organization must do is to ensure that there is no line, broadly speaking, between all the endeavours and the goals. moment by moment to make sure everybody's on track- and I, like you, The kind of metaphor of a juggler here and really is just like all the balls gotta be in the air, make sure none of those brawls drop but not in charge of doing each individual task, so in some and if you think about the executive control system and the true types of practices, you're just described really concentrated practice like a focused breath, awareness practice we are holding in with like exquisite precision on the target of where you want the flashlights

fine. The goal is stay on that target be aware moment to moment that you're flashlight is directed their so we are engaging both- were engaging the the flashlight to do the job that the juggler says. The executive control system says do and then we're doing an open monitoring practice. The goal is quite different: it's dope specifically advantage I'm information over other information allow whatever arises to be noted and then in its own time let it pass away without holding onto it, manipulating it elaborating on it, etc. So to me what was neat about understanding the nature of the variety of practices that mindfulness meditation offers that were in some sense able to engage all three of these systems and act, They train all three of these systems by repeated reps, if you will, in terms of the exercise and so the main practices you're teaching to your study.

jerk rights to the main practices are a focused attention practice and I just to make it easy cause, this concept is, we know nothing. His metaphors, I want to be helpful. So it's like find your flashlight and that is really about breath awareness both to focusing on breath related sensations, but also to actually engage that floodlight or the alerting system, meta awareness to note moment by moment. Where is my flashlight, because only then can you actually redirected back. So, even if think of a simple breath. Awareness practice, let's just break it down, so the goal you have, broadly speaking The period of time going to practice is focused on breath edit sensations be a specific ass you can and when the mine wanders returned back redirected, so you get that flashlight. Your door acting at you, ve, got a target object still engaged in this broader meadow awareness, so they are checking what's going on moment by moment and then you ve got deed, these executive, all that comes in and says you're off task it back and you just redirect back

and that's essentially would mean our dear friend general pilot who we were spoken was voting at last, have a spike ass. He was a loan of a guess with me. He calls it the push up. the mental push up, and I like that, because its through simple steps, focus notice, redirect and if we do this it just during our michaelmas practice, but in our lives as as we're trying to accomplish whatever goal. It is, it's quite helpful so the reason that we offer in in my book, as well as in the kind of training programmes that we study in my lab, focused attention, practices An open monitoring practices is to get the full companion of of working out all three of these systems. and then we also bring in loving kindness practice, which we call connection. Around out that you ve got. These tools now apply them to be connected to another aspect of your humanity. I asked this question as a dedicated practitioner of loving

I must meditation, but how does it go down for you when you're teaching loving kindness, which you ve rebranded into connection? But I would imagine still when you know when the rubber it's the road. It is that the details of the practice can can peep. little gooey for some audiences. So how does it go down when you're teaching this practice to fire fighters, football players and members of the? U s military? Surprisingly. Well, I was actually very concerned when we start introducing this, because, as it does, everything to be put back. In fact, some of the trainers will say. I don't think this is gonna go well at all, but the reason that I think does go well is because it does touch into something that we all experience the need, What I would say we all experience the need for this, which is that sense of of care and extending concern and interest.

In ourselves, which I dont think most people, this service sectors there really hard nosed are doing as often as they they know they probably would benefit from doing and each other right. There's no question the kind of care and concern that a service member or firefighter has for his or her team members is so robust. The care that they have for the mission is wrong, the care for the civilians that they dont want. They want ensure are protected and beer that their treaty. well and in a manner in line with their mission, is also strong. So there's so many aspects of this that actually meet the kind of ethical and professional. set of many of these individuals, so I think it does resonate and, what's always in thing to me as we have a four we programme and I lay out something very similar and in my book, which is the result of no success stories of holding down in a way that makes the most sense. But then, after the four

weeks if we ve got more time with these groups will say pick whatever you want this practice on your own, just pick something in practice. It twelve to fifteen. Five or so days a week and often loving kindness, is chosen, which also kind of surprises me but then you know again, based on all the things I just said to you. I think it actually makes a lot of sense that that would come into play it's interesting. It does make sense if you're on a football team, you care about your teenage if you're a fire fighter, you care about the people whose lives you're, protecting saying for the military, but these are male dominated fields and, in my experience, being a male we are socialized to emphasise are carrying capacity. You know it's yes and no, if somebody said do you wanna take care your family? Are you a love father and a spouse, you would say absolutely- and those are really important to me- you would deny that he would say. Yeah

as a leader in a wood, do care for the employees that work under you are with you and your organization, absolutely so What may feel like it robs up against some kind of norms of a cow sinister, kind of orientation in some sense, if it goes to the heart of a different kind of sort of, may be potentially stereotypically male sensibility. is I'm here and are you can lean on me and that aspect, I think, also resonates with a lot of people when it comes to this particular practice, but interesting for me because, as I mentioned, I'm inattention researcher, so it was an obvious choice. It was basically from parliament was just talking to a lot of teachers, including share in salzburg. Our mutual friend and teacher. and even John covered zinn regarding com. How do you around out what you offer people in a way that would allow to experience sort of the full suite of different aspects that contemplative practice offers in a way that is

sessile to most and that's why the switch from the top loving kindness to connection really get to the heart of the matter in the way that were describing it and and asking them to participate in practice. Much more, my conversation with doktor me. She jaw read after this. Give giving is always a challenge, no matter how well you know somebody, but this year you might consider giving a few special people something I'm pretty sure that day. I love cashmere sweaters from quince quince, great time the central that never go out a style, including swayed bomber jackets, organic cotton, sweater

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that looks like and what you ve learned from iterating on this here in the first thing, for me was when we started this work, which was bad Can the early two thousands? What's known literature right now we're not going. people on a month long retreat, we're not sending them on a ten day. Retreat, even we're gonna have to figure out a way to integrate. Practices. training within their day to day lives and them swell establish program at that point, was mindfulness bay, stress, reduction right this twenty four plus our programme, developed by John Cabot's in which requires about to two and a half hours a week for eight weeks, forty five minutes of home practice and as a beautiful swedish practices all along the lines of really these things. We were talking about of different aspects of training, attention, etc. So that great place to start, there was already literature that suggested these things are beneficial twenty four hours forty five minutes a day. It's like a non starter for mostly organizations. I wanted to work with. It was like yeah. Sorry, no thanks and

and not in a subtle way like yeah. No, were we to give you an hour. If you really want to come talk to us, but we don't they any time for this? I knew kind of the strong distance between what literature suggested would be probably likely to have an impact, and then the second part it was once they were likely to give me, and so the way that I wrote this first set of grants was really to take sort of a stepwise approach. Okay, let's start with a twenty four hour program, but let's kind of see how low we can go. She would go down sixteen hours. Can we go to eight hours for hours and what about the number of ex can go from eight weeks to four weeks to weeks we tried out all those different combinations and in saying that in a couple sentences sounds like that's good, that it all that that's basically eight years of my life right, just trying it out with very cohorts various military cohorts trying to get people to do these studies in the middle of their pre deployment, training non. Trivial, because we wanted to interact with innovation, When the demands were high, when the

answers of their attention getting degraded and depleted were high and in approach, for a period before that, it actually matter, attention becomes life or death when you're combat environments. So there are many challenges to wanting to do this, but it gave us a very clear answers which also made me very gratified. Like we went on this question, we got clear answers on what was too short or didn't work so essentially four hours of training with a trainer or delivery something over two weeks, even if it was longer than four hours, not helpful, not sick. as for reliably producing beneficial changes, tractable changes and objective metrics of attend, as well as things like mood and stress levels, so we know what we were shooting too low, and that was so with a helpful to figure that, because now, when somebody said come in an hour. Long program like happy to do but it's gonna be just talking about it, not really providing training, as we know going to short he's, not gonna really produce any kind of tractable enduring benefits what we were trying to figure out. It's ok, probable,

the best place to land. This thing is gonna be about four weeks. Eight hours of instruction two hours a week per week and then the amount of time, that people should practise daily? Was another big puzzle cause, we started out giving them. We like a forty five minutes, maybe too much about thirty minutes. So we ask people initially to do thirty minutes, but we said, look the richer study. Please be honest, tell us what you actually did so privately separate from the eyes of the trainer. They would write down and his days, you know and little cards what they actually practice daily. Now we just have an app that would allow us to track with some precision how much they're practicing nobody was doing. Thirty minutes like no was doing thirty minutes and then what we ended up having to do is say: ok, thou this participants, let's figure out for what level of practice approximately per day do we start seeing beneficial effects and it ended up to those that were practicing twelve minutes or more a day were showing beneficial effects. The there were practicing less were actually not.

So twelve was like an interesting number for us and we kind of pursued that for a while of only asking people to practise twelve minutes a day how long were traction that way? People were acts engaging, then we're trying to get it every day they have to do it now they weren't you every day. It's about. Five days is like a four to five days is a good number of days to ask for it. But now in the reasonable range of people were willing to do it and they were not to burden by it and we could fitted in the sky. Will that made sense to us, so the some long way to say it took a lot of effort we really were trying to figure out what would be feasible accessible with these kind of people I'm so that we were just randomly choosing at we actually pursued it without scientific approach knows beautiful was the matter It all is fascinating and you know I get asked all the time the least amount of meditation I can do and derive of the advertised benefits and I've never really had an answer, but it sounds like you. Ve arrived on an answer which is twelve minutes. Forty five days a week, that's

to be about right and let me be very clear on that for high stress groups and looking in specific where things like attention mood and stress so you're in the middle of a kidney transplant in your like how much mindful was gonna help me so that my immune system responds moment most robustly. I have no idea. This is what Research can tell us, based on the kinds of groups that we worked with the other thing I think so important exuded. Said I get us there. Well, what if I do less than twelve minutes, and what, if I do more than twelve minutes my answers I do whatever you can do, but around twelve as when we start seeing these really tractable effects and yours, they're kind of even better news. If you do more, you benefit more that we ve in across study after study, whether its special forces or students or longer practitioners, if you practice more just like physical activity, you benefit more, and I think,

but that's also kind of cool thing, and I know that use of some point you're describing practice at least hours a day a couple times a day, maybe even out of your still on that routine. You know, there's different kind of an impact that a larger window of I'm during the day can have on you and someone. I find myself like usual, when I'm running training programmes, I'll try to countries a dirty with our participants, do what they do like if thereon we were there doing a lot of focused attention I'll, do that and then We can some kind of like thinking of this, a little bit of a treat which most was I, what like I'm going to double up today, I'm going to I'm gonna, do thirty minutes or I'm gonna do twenty four minutes or whatever it is, and I like it. So that always seems to hold true that the there's a different experience and a different level of benefit with more engagement. In my experience, the meditation becoming a tree

thing takes a war. I mean that I haven't done any studies here. This is all anecdotal and observational, but when I hear people talking about enjoy meditation that usually tell tale me that therein the much my or more mature phase. Let me put it this way. It may not feeling treat when you're doing it, but I feel like that, quality of my mind, is in a better place and not happier by the way what present more pliable? More all these things we talked about its peak mine, it's like it and feeling sad. I can face the sadness if there's frustration, I can hold it actually watched the decisions that I'm gonna choose to make. I just feel more, I mean I guess, the word come on I'm a better friend myself and in the way that I died myself to maneuver through my life. That's the treat part is now like I'm just blessed outer simulates out, at least with a kind of practices? I'm doing it's, not what I'm attempting to achieve ya been,

yes all that my own personal experience too, that the percentage of sits that are pleasant even if their unpleasant on some level, but I just pleasant, none, the less. You know, because I can be with the unpleasant in a way that I'm not going handled with it, that has, weigh up for me over time. I won Somebody in this was completely not scientifically was just. I would have a conversation but you can have sketched out with his finger in the air a curve of what it's like to be a meditate her in the top of the beginning years. You know, you're really going uphill uphill appeal than you reach a certain I made and then it goes downhill after that. I think, probably it's more true to say that it goes up and down and up and down, but gradually vectors toward a higher place. But for me I do feel that there are times where my meditation practice has a kind of

item of its own. It doesn't feel like I'm having a forced myself into the chair once I'm here. I'm kind of pleased to be here and definitely then I'm saint just to go back to the beginner and what the mind can feel like? I offer a course at the university of miami for undergrad and their learning the pact this along with the science and it so trusting because with it maybe around we three or four, Are there saying things like my mind is a max am wondering so much. Is it because of the time we are in the semester? Is it you know? Just that There's more things going on right now and then I asked them. What do you think it is and then the best moment is when they have their own aha insight, like oh I'm just noticing it more, and I this as love that that doesn't get old for me at all, and I think that it's just this interesting paradoxical aspect

of getting to know your own mind in this way that, in some sense, that kind of real pain or discomfort of contending with a mind that feels like you know, as you put it like this slippery fisher, whatever you you had a nice metaphor for that, that's actually a win, and it may not feel that way. What that freshness of mind of like you read about it, we can even see it in our graphs that, yes, look positive mood is actually going upper actually there's a little bit of it. You should function was low, but a more negativity, but then it goes down again. If you really track people at a granular level, but actually understand that from your own phenomenal logical experience is something else. Why were you No drawn few high stress groups Well, it's gotten my entry point into practising in the first pillar and even how it entered my lab, I would say growing up

yeah, I'm an indian woman, so my earliest memories are walking into my parents. Bedroom like in the morning kind of bleary eyed and see my death bed made my dad's sitting on it like freshly shower with a prayer beads meditating like I grew up with that and with my mom ere, she meditates every single day using the mara, these feeds and ours- that's great good for you, but not doing that not interested and and there those like a little bit of through cultural. I would say Anger I had toward the entire enterprise learning that there was such a sec. This orientation towards who gets to have access to some of these practices and hinduism an adolescent, I've learned that really some these practices only the boys get access to it. I was like no way sorry see, I'm not doing that not interested also, it was something I never thought in my life? I would be interested in or practice and then

learning about it. In fact, by one of my dear colleagues at that point, early two thousand richard davidson and haven't, I contend with somebody respect is studying this thinks it's actually relevant to the kinds of things that I'm interested in, and I was personally struggling at that moment with a lot of my own high stress and high demand, as a young, mom, etc, that I opened up to this possibility and realized that there's a lot of value in it and there's a lot of things that are beneficial to me in ways that my highly sky, To my mind that had really baloney, As you know at the point. Where was him saying? The meditation annette neuroscience lecture was like astrology to astrophysicists? Like your your, why are you saying this? It was just so ridiculous, but then coming around that really made me have a lot of interest in approaching people that might also that same kind of skeptical orientation, but I know their lives are very demanding the stress that the experience is real and

Why are we at the top of their game in a way that is not only helpful for themselves but to those that they wanted to interact with an benefits that's part of the reason. I was just very curious about helping other people that in some ways have an interest like mine to optimize in some way. That is helpful. You talked about this a little bit, but can you summarize or expand upon the previously delivered summary of what the benefits you observed are for high stress groups who engage in these contemplative practice. Yes, Now we ve talked about these various systems of attention and there are objective tasks that we can offer that track things like focus and a broadening and in a kind of a cousin to attention the working memory system, which is this ability to maintain manipulate information for very short intervals, really like this sort of scratched space of the mind We deliberate thoughts and hold them temporarily and what we learn

the first thing that we learned, which was alarming, was that tasks which europe's for many years I ve been around for at least let safe over fifty years in the field of. attention research robustly stable tasks, but now If, even over the course of the task itself, we just insert things like a negative image or buttoning sound or put them on some kind of stress attention starts falling apart, even in the context of just a laboratory, metrics, so aright attend stable and very powerful, but you can perturb pretty easily by things like stress threats, negative mood, and so then I became title we're talking about a moment ago of working with high stress populations. Their lives are filled with these. all of our lives are, but for certain windows we're skin people within certain professions to perform at their best when the circumstances any objective observer would say. Yet these are very

threatening negative circumstances. Think of a fire fighter during hurricane season or trying to help in the middle of a tornado or say like that or service sarah. So now it was like in the lab. We can get the attention to start falling apart when we just induce relatively Not you was images news images of negative stuff so now tat them over high stress venerable, like they ve got, perform well in football players of a priest and training can of readiness. waiting for soldiers were their simulating combat situations. So we given this that of tasks at the beginning of some interval than forty five weeks later. Back and give it again What they're doing during that period of time is demanding over me, some protracted periods of demand. Everybody was tanking in there. so these same things of attention and working memory, reliably degraded over four weeks and now get on a plane, you're being deployed, so to me that was very troubling and that's the one

reasons. We actually started. Having that interest to offer training during high stress intervals of we could, before but usually during a swimming, we'll get access to them so here's what we were finding were finding that if we give these kind of programmes to people whether practicing like we describing about fifteen minutes a day and this for weak interval after participate The group based training with a get introduced to the practices we can protect against that decline. So the whoops. You know kind of standard controlled the design with recruit a bunch of people. Half of them would get the training that would be wait listed to get it later, or they get some other kind of training, and only was that we're getting the mindful of training actually were not declining in their attention. They were staying stable and those that were practicing more than others more than this to have met Those were actually in some cases increasing, their attention. Even over this high stress interval,

and we saw again this dose response effect, so those that practice very little benefited little. Those that practice more benefited more so in general that the sort of a broad beneficial, acts that we see is is a protection or enhancement of attention. If these folks and high stress groups are doing, these can temple practices and you're, seeing a benefit to their attention. Attentional resources, attentional capacity. What is the mechanism? What is it about meditation? That is helping them great question and fundamentally is it based, like attention researcher somebody interest in the brain mechanisms of attention. That's what we ve been trying to do. Out right. So I gave you the sort of theoretical understanding of this if what's happening during a focused attention. Practice, for example, is your cultivating a better ability to keep that fly. light focused. We should be able to see sensitive,

in tasks that require task focus laser, like focus so these stimuli, not these other ones. If what we're doing during a mindfulness practice vote, detention practices noticing our mind wandering when we have people do tasks that promote mind, wandering and we give them opportunities to report on half in their mind, wandering they should be mind, wandering less and that's what we find and if it's the case that what doing during a focused attention practice, or even a more open monitoring practice and, frankly, even a loving kindness practice is building the goal in mind at what we're granular level so that your image, maintain moment by moment. You should see improvements in things like working memory. Worse, all about that goal or the entire, upholding information- active, we see that as well. So all these, policies that we have regarding what we think practice is doing to these sub systems of attention. We have tasks at tat.

Into those and those are the ones that are showing beneficial effects so broad, Speaking, that's what it is now. We can also look at the brain directly right having people come in, come inside, mri scanner look the brain while their practising a mindless exercise and then, sir, do a proposed across multi. We training to see what kind of brain changes functional. just there- are story seems to be consistent. We see a dialing down of a brain network which I know you ve talked about the default networks ass you with some of its responsibilities are what we might call mind, wandering that's dialed down were all, and then the fluidity and what we call dynamic, functional connectivity b, in networks that have to do with focusing and coal. The goal in mind is much better, so the brain itself was performance as well as self report suggest that these specific improvements in finding the flashlight in holding it

broader receptive understanding when the mine wonders and redirecting at bath we're seeing positive evidence in support of those mechanisms just procedure. You brought up the term flashlight again. I think now is just a frigate time to point out that you recorded of meditation for the ten percent happier app called find your flash ass right, so people can actually check out how to do it and how we describe it. Ll ask if you other questions about attention. What about multitasking, verse, the newer. Why not asking here, which I learned a lot on attacking yeah? So this is the other. Entering into this landscape of you, no sir, this members sports people, business leaders like this very go I'm kind of culture I was learning a lot about the norms and multitasking you'd see over and over again a sort of kind of like a badge of honor. Like I multitask all the time. I think many of us many people I know would say that they do this

the first thing to say, is no you're. Not doing that. If you, if you think your multitasking, because you're doing multiple attack, finally demanding task simultaneously you're wrong. You aren't notice. We didn't say flashlights of attention. We said flashlight, singular focus is singular. So what your ass? we doing when you think you're multitasking is task, switching so you're toggling back and forth, when these two high demand tasks. Now, if the task is not hide, a man like you know how to walk in your walking no problem Only in this high demand situations that you're gonna toggle back and forth, and this becomes with the way that I like describe it because a lot of people are like yeah. Ok, fine, I'm I'm task switching, but even that's not what's the big deal so I test which will think about what's happening at the level of the brain. and as we as we were talking about a little while ago, attention its job. Is to biased information processing in favour of the privileged information, so whatever it is, the task that you're doing the gold,

You have the focus that your on it recalibrate entirety of the way the brain operates, like to use this kind of visual for people it lets. Think of the brain is like a studio apartment. So now we ve got his agenda. I'm going to make I'm going to do some meal prep, I'm going to make a bunch of meals, I'm gonna use my whole apartment. Essentially, my tiny apartment is like that kitchen and I'm going to have like my vegetables here, I'm going to do all my meal, prep you're scared of the stuff around and then you're like is bedtime. I gotta, I gotta get ready that put everything away, make it in an actual bedroom? Second fall asleep right thinking. Those. two tasks getting ready for bed this is actually making food in some sense That's what you're doing when your task? Switching, you recall right, the entirety of the brain, the studio apartment for one task. Then he had to rearrange the furniture clean up, put everything away and now you're gonna, get ready for bed

is exhausting to go back and forth, and that's essentially that recalibration process that toddling we'll do the work that is required to get you able to reconfigure. The brain freeze task and it will deplete this broader resource of attention in the process. So nah multitasking in your task, switching between two tasks and a man better way to approach. The whole thing is as best as you can try to not put yourself in a task switching context, if you can and you a lot of leaders would that I talked about this will save like hair like I can be responsive, it calls me- or you know I am asked to do something in the middle of something else. I gotta be responsive and I completely stand that you know that in some sense that a very real aspect of what leading any enterprise winter weather is even your own family could mean like you, gotta be responsive, then

say, be aware of the costs of tasks. Switching you're gonna be slow. When you switch tasks, it's gonna. Take you some time If you're in the middle of writing a report so my company room starts telling you stuff, maybe let them know it'll. Take me a second to order. To you and really hear your words and understand them? Give me that time, so that there's gonna be a time costs and also you much more likely to make errors when you to do all this, switching back and forth. So no the landscape of what you're allowing yourself. Do you hear me more are prone to get a slow down in exhaust yourself so, but it should be aware that that's the case and make their best plans to try to help themselves under the circumstances. What are you personally due to help yourself at protect yourself against the siren of multitasking. Yet I mean I try. I mean in the same way like if I've, no, my have to pick up my kids I'm not gonna turn off my phone, but I've turn off

modifications and all my social media that's been helpful. So, at least now, when I have my put on court downtime, I'm not doing a bunch of tasks like checking everything in every comment and then, when I'm working, I will really. I mean it's like you In some sense, it is tied to a practice orientation in the same way that I want to focus on the breath and when my my wonders return it the paper. working on. Is my focus and enter like a dance where you're like look? This is the focus, but if I know there's a paper out there that I need to go online and sir For to get the current reference does a man I do that, but I'm going to be aware, I have a goal right now, which is just to get this paper and come back. Don't start shopping, for you know a new per sunglasses, in the middle of that, so just try to keep that protected container s as you can, and rome within that is you need to? In some sense people talk about self care. This is health care like you caring for. Self azure working in the most fundamental way and its

a badge of honor to do something else like multitasking forced herself to be slow and make errors and be exhausted. All the time didn't help anyone. May I ask you about something I do you read about in the book which is formation bias? What is compromise, biased and what have you found in this realm? So, confirmation biases. Essentially this tendency of mine, a kind of built in brain by us, your default tendency, if you will that whatever you hold too, the case, whatever you hold to be true or the story you ve got regarding a particular situation. For example, you're going to highlight two yourself, the aspects consistent with that story, and that tends to happen very often, and it can be quite consequence, shall, when its tied to what you think is a current. A complex situation like, for example, potential a scenario of military combat, which is one of the examples I provide in the book.

Well, I know you're reference, this name earlier, general while pie it. How he was in a situation where he was thinking about bombing and encampment. afghanistan that they believed was probably taliban, turned out a wasn't and he and his team were able to get over the confirmation, biased they saved, or they didn't kill a lot of people. right. That's what I mean by its can have very real life or death consequences when it, No did and actually not followed him that the problem with all kinds of biases is that their default is they're not reality, though, not actually even picking up on reality. So what this broad for us in this was a story that he had conveyed quite a while ago, related to a lot of what we were trying to do with our money. Was training programme is actually give soul yours as well as many other kind of first responders. This

understanding that there are gonna, be these default tendencies of your mind, and but what do you actually want to be to be successful with europe I met with your job, and every one of them would say I want to know is actually happening. Of course I dont want to be in my deluded view, or whatever somebody else's determined, is the case. I want to know the reality, and so that kind of brings up really interesting discussions of how do you, make a mind that is more capable of getting the raw data and experience so that the stock, ray is not clouding our ability to see? What is that's where it goes back. And then we talked about a while ago, this notion of meadow awareness and The challenges to meadow awareness are that we not implementing it, because we are too fused with the story we ve got so that just like you know, session. What happens when we have a story- and this happened with the scenario just described all the entire

They were getting was being fed into the story that they already had the people that they were approaching were combatants their people. they should be fighting the taliban in that case said the captain. Putting all the data that way and what actually saved them was one soldier who had the scout mindset, whose actually observing what is- and he said then he got to the kind of front too It actually make visual contacts and there are many weapons. There are no. because here, which is a very odd thing, so was he what he was doing, is picking up the data that was a mismatch between the story that they had and then the ray did. He saw Susan, the brake himself out of the story, It gave him more raw data. Then he realized. Oh, my gosh. This is just a bedouin tribe and in fact that's what gen pi described. Leaders like having this very angry woman come out when they tackled the people in front of the these buildings of saying in it. What are you doing to my family members here? We're just trying to make our way through these past years, so it was, sequential that they broke out of their story. The danger,

was that if they didn't have somebody that saw the raw data was occurring, they might not have, and so the way in which you might introduce practices that promote Seeing what is or dropping the story are very much those are tied to open monitoring or whatever, the term we might use decentering. which is essentially practicing. De fusing yourself from the story that you have taken a bird, I view if you will so an open, martyring practice rate often talk about her of either being a ten or the observer of experience to let us and three content, mental content come and go, but if we so in the story. It's like if we're looking at a movie for watching a movie, and we are in the movie instead of noticing. Oh it's a screen, and I'm watching this and it's one of many things that could be on the screen. We won't know the limitations of that fused reality and so do centering can act

really really help break out of that fog much more. My conversation with doktor me: she jar, ran after this This episode brought you buy maui neue, venison, a mission based food company, bringing the healthiest red meat directly to your door. This meat that you can feel good about mowing. You venison is a unique operation. That brings you. One hundred percent wild harvested protein could also restore balance to the islands, voluntary eco ecosystem maui. Newly venison has the highest protein per calorie up to fifty three percent more than grass fed beef thanks to wild grazing on volcanic rich soils, as I have mentioned on the show, I recently added a little bit of meat back into my diet, and this is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for high quality and ethically sourced meat.

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Will free for thirty days, audible, dot, com, slash ten percent. Another very interesting. Now get you shared. We a text that I think it might be worth exploring these are your words simulating mode verses, mindful mode what do you have in mind there when you, when you're talking here and I'm curious, to hear your thoughts to so what we just talked about with the confirmation bias is in some sense connected to what we might call simulation mode, so it ends up. You were talking about the default mode network, the default mode. Is this now work of brain regions in the middle and of our of our brain. That happens to be my active when we are going internal when reflecting on self related thought actually reflecting on memories that have occurred. Planning thinking about the past That is a very complex set of things. It's happening the thing that kind of yokes it all to you

there is that we are not only time traveling we are in I'm cases mind travelling. and all of this means it's not tied to the data. That's occurring moment to moment it is a simulated reality. The brain is playing out stuff from that are internally held to plan for the future or reflect on the past or perspective taken put myself in you note in your shoes of like what is damn thinking right now so, I am travelling in mind. Travelling are really simulations of the mind and the where I started learning about this brain network is to follow network has in many ways oftentimes the month whistling sure it's almost like it's the evil network, we're trapped bash down right. Thank you Turned down the volume one that terrible default mode does your mind wandering what my wondering is. Not a problem spontaneous thought is not a problem. Simulating is not a problem unless it's interfering with what you're trying to do in the case of what we were just talking about essentially

the data that that these soldiers were being fed on the mountain top was feeding into a simulation and so was colouring their view of the reality that was in front of them. That's when it can become problematic We rely on our simulation capabilities its makes us uniquely human there's nothing intrinsically problematic about it, but when I started to realize is like my goodness, like everything that we talk about with hard to simulations their immersive nature, their transport of nature. There thyssen nature and often their self. lady nature is what we are attempting to come The vote against, in some ways with mindfulness practices, and that's why I was curious about your own thoughts regarding this kind of internal orchestra or movie that can play and how it relates to What you ve experienced in your journey with mindfulness as well. Well, I love what you just said that we may,

mind, wandering or simulation the enemy in meditation it's not about, washing. All of that, because that's just a possible, especially for beginners. You know. Maybe people who are really good at concentration practices can squash for periods of time really the goal. All is not to and mind wandering it's to create a different relationship to it and that, I think is, is so important for people to understand, especially beginning meditators, who are tempted to tell themselves a story after they see how distractible they are, that they are uniquely enable edited? That's the worst, when I hear that it's, like a my mind, is so busy with the first of all, I know you're human, that's a nature of your mind. It was built for that kind of distract ability, but just a kind of flesh out when ology. If you don't mind seeking out with me a bit Essentially what we're talking about what I just described, assimilation mode is this

spontaneous thought that arises in the mind- and yes that is, that is absolutely a default of the brain. It happens. Constant there's all kinds of reasons. We think it might be happening, some that are actually tide. to normal healthy functions and memory. Generation processes is needed, We need that simulation to be happened, his. We can't take our exports this in turn them into memories. If we don't cut of replay what has occurred, over and over again so oftentimes Yeah. You ll notice in practice, sir, just in your life that like, if you just like say this happened to me the other day where I was looking for a rug or something, and I just rug after rug after rug and then like trying to go to bed at night, all just seeing his rugs in my head and like what heck is going on but then I have a little heart fulness cycle. Of course she just spent the last, whatever thirty minutes browsing through rugs. That's them! till content that your brain is still sort of sifting through and the replay

Friend is what allows certain drugs to be remembered and may in fact, my choices of which one I'll choose to buy very normal thing that the brain does I forget about purchasing rugs, but the experience you have it'll it'll help. So what we call mine wondering is in some sense, just spontaneous thought that is very natural that occurs Term mine wonder mind wandering is actually the technical descriptions having off task during an ongoing task, so is already qualify as in the car. text of something else is going on pulling you away, so it's not just that things are happening in your mind, when you're trying to get stuff done, that it is literally hijacking attention away. That is when it becomes problematic and it, and it really does become problematic. The simulation itself is not necessarily a problem and in fact this It is very important, and actually, I think, my fullest practices help me with this as well

simulating on purpose, letting your mind go were ever the heck, it will is so valuable. I mean not just kind of reflecting on it for my own practice experience, but we know that part the moon is lifted. We know that visioning has helped the problems in some sense, deliberating action planning. All these things are helped by allowing your mind to freely flow wherever it will, and I think one of our party, the reason we're having a crisis and attention right now actually is because we not allowing those moments to occur. We can't be just standing, align, standing, align, let letting our minds wander. Wig, full in our hands or just sitting the couch and kind of one staring out. Your window, which don't do that, and so these micro moments that we used to have actually have built into our daily life. The white space, if you will,

he's gone its being consumed by our attention now needing to work. It's actually focused on a task, and that task is the content being made available to through your technology. right. So, instead of standing online at the grocery store waiting for an elevator or just taken a walk with no device, we're scrolling, or dooms grow scrolling or you know just catch, I have an email optimizing every single moment, but dad has a tax on the mind is what you're saying yeah, I would even say we're not optimizing we're expending. All of our capacity. My doing this and it's it's a cultural it's a good many reasons that drive us doing this, but is not innocuous and it actually is playing into why. I think we feel overwhelmed so often we don't allow this precious brain ceased to rest and rest in some sense means theirs.

No controlled processing. It is, I mean I really do think about it. Like my little puppy dog like taking them to for a walk in the you know on a leash is one thing and that's what we do most days, but some days just take him to the dog Let him run around, but we don't do that for our minds. We just let it off speech and we don't think that has any value. It's like that's a waste of time, but it's not it's actually really generative and beneficial. So just changing that cultural understanding, I think, is very important and this is different for meditation. While the reason I'm saying is tied to meditation is because what my meditation practice allowed me to do is check in with my attention more often and get the insight that,

wow, I'm always using it. You know I'm always task focused, even if I'm having challenges with it, need to when wander away and come back, and what, if I just didn't, have a goal like what would that even feel like to just not have a goal now early on when I would play around with that? What would happen is ruminative, loops would come up, worry would come up, catastrophizing would come up and I would be stuck what I consider to be the free flow of my conscience, experience wasn't now is getting stuck in certain mental landscapes that were driving my mood down and what my meditation practice allow me to do is when I I would check in with being stuck when I thought it was just letting the mind wander, and I could kind of unhook myself so that I could say. Oh you know, look at that that that thoughts come up a lot or I'm just stuck in this space. How about just letting go a little bit?

like it almost let me reset, as I was mind, wandering because I have the tools of of being able to an open monitoring orientation and then I could actually get back to having the mind flow where it will without feeling so bound by certain neighbourhoods of the mind where I was spending a lot of time and drive myself kind of crazy register and clear here. There are periods of time where your dedicated to the task of meditation, but then there are periods of your life where you're saying I'm not gonna dedicate myself to a task at all I'm gonna, take a walk or when a lie on the germinal the grass or whatever it is, and let my mind wander and what your meditation practice did was allow you did not get so stuck in mood depressing cul de sac or even problem solving in a way that wasn't necessary in the moment like right now doing it figure out exactly how many get from l a

to where I need to get like. Is that really to think? I need to do now, just like certain things just pop up, and you can ask yourself necessary right now, not in that sense of control and not even, I wouldn't call controls that wasn't control anything, but it's like I could look at it without feeling compelled. I could make choices more freely, because I could look at things very directly. As I was away, what was arising, even as I was letting it flow, and sometimes yes. This was the right time to make my evening travel plans and other times it was like. No just don't worry about that right now. It's gotta go wherever it's gonna go, you know just sort of like let it be, and in so funny because I actually I was writing that to you about simulation mode and- and we got into this conversation just now about sort of letting spontaneous thought happen. But act has been bringing up for me, the notion of enlightenment and I'll take. It is not something I in other practicing meditation for quite some time now, but enlightenment has never been sort of a goal,

for me and at all, in fact, that sort of whole framing it's just not been on my mind, but what I loved about kind of what I was noticing in my own attempts set. You know playing around with the site, allowing for this kind of mental whitespace is feeling that freedom to choose. Where my mind went next and I often hear of people talking about liberation as sort of this state of what potentially enlightenment is etc. And so I was curious about your thoughts of what you think that might mean, if you think it adds value and how it might relate. To this moment to moment freedom we can actually experience as a verifiable e unenlightened person, I can't speak from a position of expertise here, but you know that

The thing about enlightenment is as soon as you start talking about enlightenment you're, in an argument because they are all the different traditions disagree about what enlightenment actually is. The classical buddhist old school buddhist. Understanding of what enlightenment is: is the uprooting of greed, hatred and delusion the uprooting of all afflict of emotions? How does that classical definition track with what you are just I think, if you look at the nature of what minds tend to do and now I'm getting into a totally different terrain, but if you're willing to go here, it's kind of a fun conversation to have and when it takes back to the lab for a moment. So one of the things that we've been doing in the lab is very

I stood in this notion of mind wandering and one of my postdocs, as has been innovating. This line of work tony is an esco he's innovating. This line of work that has to do with brain micro states so now we're not just looking at people's responses of whether their mind wandering or not, but we're looking at brain dynamics at the level of let's say twenty distinct states that you can see through the voltage topography of the brain within one second, so you've got like profiles of the brain that looked distinct and, let's just say, twenty different ways within a second and then you see these patterns repeat over and over again, and we can look to see how those brain state show up when people are on task or off task, and you can actually look at the fluctuations between those states. And what we know about them is whatever this prior state was is likely to lead to what the next stages. So there's a temporal contingency in brain dinah

x and in a sort of that sort of the nature of this interconnected contingent reality that we're talking about, and so now a really connecting the dots. But if you think about what afflicted states are they have that call? quality of lingering and stickiness and in some sense it relates to what I'm saying about letting your mind wandering in deliberative sense, because your actively aware of that dickie quality, and you can do something to unstick yourself moment by moment. So my dear vision to not stay in a hell. Lou of my own making, whether its depression or orange, diety or I dunno fantasy. I can actually unhook myself and that shit, the prediction would be, and we haven't tested this out yet. But it's something that you know tony and I have certainly talked about. If that's really the case, this contingent, nature of brain states may actually categorically shift as a function of practice,

So that we are seeing that people are less contingent potentially when they dont need be contingent and maybe even more contingent when they choose to be in a particular state. So that's how it relates to me. I really did too. It's been quite a journey there, but that's how I connect the dots on what I was seeing is like the freedom aspect of the mind and how it relates to these views on what enlightenment is they have in their various freedom for sure and noticing that you're stuck you're caught and changing, channel and that changing of the channel doesn't mean you're, pushing it away per se. But you're you're seeing are caught up in a useless group of rumination. I don't need to be here any more. I can take my flashlight shine it elsewhere. You can, but I dont think that's what it's happening in that in the context of a meat. If I had to guess I don't think it's a changing the channel situation for really

practitioners. I think it's a dissolution of the state like really allowing it to percolate away without having to actively do anything about it. You don't the the changing. The channel is probably what I'm more I'm doing right now, because I'm saying I don't have to do that. I can do something else, so I am flipping the flashlight around very productive but different categorically than whatever brain processes are probably allowing for dissolving of whatever that. That was that regular state was well. I wonder whether it is possible, we're saying the same thing and I honestly don't know, but I have heard Joseph Goldstein, my meditation teacher talk about changing the chain. And- and I dont know exactly what he means by that. But I think its past while he may mean letting anger, depression planning arise and pass on its own instead of our rent

king, it could be both and he might mean with by changing the channel yeah. Look. I've just see that I'm on the eighteenth time of running through all the horrible ramifications of amiss flight and yeah, I'm gonna focus on something else and that's our wrenching of near flashlight. One direction. The other way in which the channel could be changed is just the mind that doesn't clang as much allows these things to come and go, and I've been playing around with that. Just in my own practice, whenever I do a body scan, it's not practice. We talked about during this conversation, but even with a body scan right where you're, essentially, I think of the body scan and the way that I I guide. That practice is like you're, taking the flashlight and now you're kind of scanning. The body in a systematic manner. First is the big toe. Then it may be the top part of the foot etc right. So when you're going from one body part to the next, what is preceding verses? What is prior,

the thing like that, like what should I be thinking about the next body part and that's, what's going to be the focus of my attention? Is it really like a flashlight or is it that I'm letting the thing fade away and now I'm moving forward? So I mean I think it's just you know I I happen to. I happen to really like this topic of attention and how it works, and and with learning about mindfulness, I've really started exploring through the phenomenology, and surprisingly, it often does relate to the questions that we can ask in the lab. But these are. These are really, I think, part of the spectrum of of what comes up when you think about advanced practitioners and what they're doing I certainly would say I'm no one knew that terrain, but at least we can start using vocabulary that may make sense to think about what phenomenal logically going on this is where doktor jaws research goes from the workers a world deep and I love it before I let you go

Can you just plug your book and any other resources that you ve put out into the world that people my one access if they want to learn more yeah? Absolutely so my book peak mind, I really have road. It is sir a gift to take everything we learn in a lab with others. High stress hiding populations and just make it available for everybody to benefit from what we learned and you can check out our research and more about the book at my website. A messy dot com it from my first name emma s h, I d come and if you want to check out a cool meditation practice tied to the book, ten percent happier up we'll have it on it, and we should thank you very much for should. Thank you a lot of fun thanks again to an easy job. Great to talk to her always ten percent happier is produced adjusting davy, Gabriel's, ackerman, Lauren smith and terror, Anderson DJ cashmeres, our senior producer were assessed, I remain as our senior editor kevin o connell as our director of audio and postproduction gimme. Regular, is our executive.

Is there a leash? Mackey leads our marketing and tony magyar. Is our director of pod casts? Finally, dick thorburn of islands brought our theme. If you want more on the topic of attention, go to the show notes where we added a link to a previous episode with johan hurry, who talked a lot about how to snaefell If you like, ten percent happier- and I hope you are you- can listen early and ad free right now, by joining wondering plus in a wondering, app or on apple pie, casts members can listen ad free on amazon music before you go, tell us about yourself by filling up a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant,

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