Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier app it's available for free until august twenty If you haven't tried walking meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here. is what one user had to say, I'm quoting here, I'm in my sixty year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising walking the dog the long. I use it the more I learn the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life. Changing that's awesome to hear although the ten percent happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free these, days. Every new potential higher can feel like a high stakes wager for your small business. You wanna be one hundred percent certain that you have access to the best qualified candidates available. That's why you have to do, doubt linked and jobs linked in jobs, helps find the right people for your team faster and for free post, your job for free at length

and dot com, slash acquire that's linked and dot com, slash acquire deposed your job for free terms and conditions apply from abc this is the ten percent happier podcast Dan harris I hello, has everybody doing. Maybe it's just me but I've really never considered friendship to be an urgent psychological and physiological issue that view which I held more subconsciously them justly is completely wrong, headed of course,. if I've learned one thing hosting, they show over the past. Four years is that the quality of your relationships determines the queen, any of your life. I pick that expression up from the great psychotherapist astaire parallel to give credit words do in any and making and keeping friends is truly an urgent issue and sadly, in many ways,

It is harder now than ever. Of course, the pandemic has made keeping in touch with people at least face to face, in meaningful ways very hard immobile. Or that, though loneliness and disconnection was on the rise. Our society really is not constructed for social connection. In fact, Recent data suggests were in something of a friendship. Crisis with many of us reporting that we have fewer close friends than ever What can you do about all this? I have, three pieces of good news. First, my guest, is a world renowned expert on human relationships. He has a tunnel fascinating research findings and practical tips for upping your friendship game. Second, now We were kicking off a brand new series of episodes here on the podcast, focusing on one of the foundations of all successful human. Really ships kindness, this news, There is a collaboration with the very funny show: ted lasso, which errs on apple tv plus, in fact, were calling it. The ted lasso series

save. You haven't seen that Joe annually. No plans to see that show its fine you'll get tonnes out of the series. just so you know it's. The show is all about in american football coach who takes a job cuts. Soccer in england, alarm ensues what saved him really is that he's a very, very nice guy, and there is a common misconception nice guys always finish last or that kind. as is somehow softer fluffy, but we're we bring on some top scientists from berkeley and from Stanford who dare to talk how the research suggests that compassionate or actually happier healthier and more successful and we're gonna have a bonus met station from the one and only Sharon Salzberg, and we're going to introduce you to a phenomenal dharma teacher who will be making a t, p h, podcast debut. So I'm looking forward to that hope. You hope for that- and my final piece of news is that the week after Do the ted lasso serious here in the pot cast we're gonna launch. little ted lasso challenge over on the general a happier app every day.

The challenge will get a little video featuring yours truly, along with the some short clips from the ted lasso show explaining how you can use kindness to of your relationship to their family or friends yourself and then After the video you'll get a powerful and bespoke guided meditation. There will help you practice what you just learned this challenge the lasso challenge will be short and sweet just five days, so you can commit to it completed and reap the benefits in shock, order. We we really do think we ve cooked up something pretty special here. We hope you'll be part of it. You can download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps and and get excited the ted lasso challenge to launch on september. Seventh. Ok, let's let circle back now to the first piece of good news: today's guest, He is one of the world's leading experts on relationships. As I said, his name is robin dunbar he's in a meredith's professor, evolutionary psychology at oxford university. He's the author of numerous books on the development of our species he's perhaps best known for

relating something called dunbar's number, which is a measurement of the nuts of relationships are brain, is capable of maintaining at any time that she quite important will explain it better than I have In this conversation, you can hear professor dunbar talk about the science, but human relationships? How to make and keep friends there size and downsize of maintaining relationships and social media interestingly way is much less anti social media. Then you might guess we'll talk about I ability of friendships across gender lines and, what's it says you can do to compensate if you feel you are currently lacking in close friendships. Here. looking to touch on another of his very interesting. Areas of expertise, gossip which he argues has gotten the bad rap so without further ado. Here we go now with robin dunbar, as a robin dunbar, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. pleasure to be here

been looking forward to this. If this so much here to talk about to start with a question. I'm sure you ve gotten a million times, but I it's a good way to level set, audience here? What is dunbar's number essential it's the limits on the number of relationships, meaningful relationships that you can have at any one time. So that includes friends that includes family to be extended family for me It might even included your captain, your dog, in your favour horse, and maybe your favorite soap opera character on tv. If you feel you have a meaningful relationship with them, you talk to them. You feel that they communicate back with you usually because most of the people a number of a hundred and fifty, which is the core number for dumbass number, are actually real people, of course, and now their people you see, on a fairly regular basis, don't know if you're being somewhat, maybe semi facetious with the tv show thing, but there people who feel they have, and

give ongoing conversation with and relationship with god or Jesus. Oh absolutely is absolutely and that's it like a perfectly reasonable thing to have got. Oh Jesus, all the virgin mary of her, a catholic, perhaps or indeed I really am quite serious that some people really do feel that they have relationships with sea people on onto these shows, and so on. My grandmother always said good night to the newscaster when he said good night to her and called him by name but sure sure she felt that she was very much in her. Circle. I maybe not the closest friends you have had, but you know he sat erin she saw him every day. Every night on tv news, the anchor and she said good night to him. He was part of her social circles on behalf of news castors everywhere, given that I am one at least for now, but I appreciate that my salutations right back at your grandmother. How do you

come up with their number one hundred and fifty two, we're originate was predicted off the back of an equation. relating the size of social groups and monkeys nights, the primates, that's the zoological family to which we belong, and their brain sizes, so species that lived in Big social goods had big brains in the outer curiosity, I just plugged hugh brains into the same equation, to see what kind of figure it gave and it gave a figure of a man two hundred and fifty in dumb that just sent me going looking And to see whether this could possibly be true cause, I actually thought it was far too small. After all, we live in. You know huge cities with tens of millions of people, and I thought that one hundred and fifty sounds awfully small for that. But then it transpired eventually, when we started looking at the size of personal social networks, the people like

we have meaningful relationships said this is about what that number is at somewhere between one hundred and and two hundred that we can sign out many more people on facebook than that, but they tend to fall into the category of acquaintances and, of course, we have acquaintances in real life, too We work with a lot of these people. We go out and we'd have a beer with him, maybe after workable gauges and maybe them overland or the water cooler or something, but we probably wouldn't invite them home say it turns out that term. Quite a good definition for this number is the number of people who would feel an obligation to you and closeness that they would turn up for you, It's your wedding oil funeral say that sea The numbers number is really obama. Its first strike wedding, stroke, funeral group size, and indeed, if you look at thebes, come very nice website that provide

data on american weddings. That is exactly the average is of. Things in america, and it has been very consistent for the last decade while I can't save for the last year. Maybe, but as part of that, it has been a very very consistent number seems to be positive. The number of people that kind of means something to you and you'd feel a sense of obligation to them, and you know that if you asked them to do you a favor, they would kind of say. Yes, they might kind of be a big grudging, but they do it out of obligation

If so, you are initially surprised. You said at the number one hundred and fifty cause you thought. Maybe that was a little small, but the numbers get really small when you're talking about truly close intimate relations yeah. So it turns out that this number one hundred and fifty is really just one of a series of numbers. If you like a series of circles of friendship. So if you imagine yourself as a stone being thrown into the lake, you would have this set of ripples that run out from the stone and, as the ripples go out, was so they get bigger, but if you like, the amplitude, the height of the wave, guess gradually smaller and smaller until it dies away. So you social world, bears summer relationship to this really, in the sense that yours

surrounded by a series of layers of friendship and the animals last very small. They typically about five people on average, but tat, really intense relationship there. What I call the shoulders to cry friendships that these are the people that you know when you well falls apart. They will drop everything to come and pick you up again that out beyond that to get rid of large progressively larger and larger less, but the emotional quality of those relationships in the frequency of that you see the people in these. As fools away till you get two hundred and fifty and then on the hundred fifty we know there are at least three more less one at five hundred, which would good. All your acquaintances, and these last count, cumulatively by the way, are the five hundred We also include your hundred and fifty inside, but an additional three hundred and fifty people who you sort of counters

quaintest, as you know them. Well again, as I say you work with. Probably a lot of them might include they kind of birthday. You by your you used to buy your a coffee from on the way to work. I do tat pass the time a day and a brief chat with them. Beyond that there's another layer of people whose faces you can put names to and then finally, what seems to be the outermost lair takes us out about five thousand people. Is the number of faces you can recognize as having seen them before they complete strangers, or have you seen that photograph before now, so that kind of lay just inside that of photographs, you could put name tool include all sorts of people. you don't really have a meaningful relationship with it. I so for all of us, for better or for worse Donald trump sets in there, because I ve seen him so often on television. Probably the queen having them would sit in their because, most of us sailor very familiar, but in our view, bumped into them in the street and wandered over and clapped them

the children said hi that come and have a bear with me. They'd, probably look a bit surprised eyes than and maybe some gentlemen, with a very large bowl: gender is left. Armpit would hustle you away rather quickly. Let's just go the close friends and I want to stress again using friendship in the broadest sir, most copy, just wait here that that it it can include your romantic partner, clear day as your mom you're child whatever. But forty six, or five, or would it whatever? The number is daddy. not a lot, and, as I understand it, your argument is. This is a zero sum thing that somebody, he's gonna, get knocked out you add a new, truly close friend. I wonder I say when we use the word, friend. Here we use it in the facebook sense than anybody. You feel you have relational of course that is going to include your mom and is gonna clue bureaucratic partner

Grady and as well as your more conventional friends. But these numbers say to be quite robust. These lesson to be quite robust and partly because they seem to reflect the brains ability to handle relationships of a particular relational closeness, but there are also a consequence or how much time we invest in the relationship so nor to keep a friendship in particular, going working. If you like, we have to keep engaging with the person somehow or other. Usually, of course it's in a face to face way. We see them once or twice a week whatever it is. We go out with them, hang out with them. If you don't do that, for some reason that's, because you ve moved away or because you ve met. Somebody else is more interesting than the emotional quotas that friendship is gained. She just decay ever so slowly but surely, and eventually, if you don't see them

for a couple of years, or so they will drift down through the letters from being friend, probably not your best friend ever, but certainly a good friend will kind of end up as an acquaintance. Eventually somebody once knew, but you haven't seen rage is so that we know what they're doing these days and that kind of movement, goes on all the time. It's particularly dramatic, I think, late high school early college age group were never meeting. Also new people say we reckon is about a service and the turnover in that position of friends in their social networks every year and is true of kind of us older folk. If I could use the word politely in this context, Well, friendships change over time too, and in fact, even our family relationships. We kind of see less as somebody because we're seeing more of somebody else when we feel more engaged with with with a new person and and and they fit better with all our sexual interests, if you like, and it's

sent change upwards in downwards is just going on all the time you see. The people at the very very centre remained fairly stable for very long periods, but It is a dynamic social world that we live in How are you defining Close friends, what what are the metric set are important, though we use a simple rating metric, which is simple. at a one to ten scale. How emotionally close, do you feel to this person where ten is effectively, I love them daily and one is I'm gonna neutralised, there's no negative component wages, kind of news, up to. I love them daily and if you ask people to write, every the that they know on this scale. Then, see these last pop out quite nicely, and tat scale then turns out to correlate very nicely with the time devoted to that person so the people you are emotionally places to you,

see most often. So that means three then use kind of just the frequency with which people contact each other. Be that phone be that posting a named posting on social media. Be that a text any kind of fun contact. You can pick up the same layers, the same frequencies of contact with telephone people with same frequencies as we see them, and this we tax them at the same frequencies as we see them, we posted among social. With more or less the same frequencies as we see them extremely robust defects out one implication of that courses that social media in general and digital media in general, say, including in a cell phones and the like substitute quite well, it seems for face to face contact they're, not quite as effective or quite as good. We don't feel so satisfied by a virtual meeting.

We do with a face to face meeting that term as a default is it, you might say, the digital world kind of does its job pretty well. On the whole, it's interesting, because that most people come on the shore pretty anti, not die, but you know a wary of technology. It sounds like you're a little bit more open. I guess I'm going we need, for I mean I too think it does do a good job in the sense that it does allow us to keep contact with friends who are not easy to see and a face to face situate because they moved away. Perhaps- and that's good- that's gotta healthy, but I do think it s. A downside Quite clearly, I am one of those is kind of it, based on ready, because people kind of make this mistake of nightingale. A very good friend moves away, one of your shoulders, the crown friends, relationship is so important to use you they try and keep it going through telephone calls and social media and so on. When you have to ask whether they

not be better. Finding a new shoulder to cry on just round the corner. Is it worth whom when they well falls apart, they can walk around the block knox. A door and say give us a hug, and what are we We have a coffee somewhere and talk through the issues I have as it were, and you can help me. You know that physical access, as it were, face to face like those laid incentive, we have a home from them and all these other things that we do it with close friendships, various important and- and you can't do that on the digital world to europe. Clay saying something similar What I believe crosby, stills and nash, said about you know if you can't be with the one. You love, love the one you're with that puts new generation.

What would use the word old before I felt like I was you know I I felt uncomfortable being lumped in there. I mean I just got my a rp card the other day so go to join, join the club yeah. So I just go back to this five number. What it may be for the six, but whatever for close friend. If I have all I personally have a wife and a young son. That means I've only got three to four slots open, whereas my brother who has a way and six children does that mean that one of the kids, it's not gonna, make it made the cut our and an does that mean like I'm, I can't get into my brother's inner circle. Well, I couldn't possibly covered. The answer is having these numbers are kind of. You know every dataset we look at we see the same numbers, but they all kind of variable they do depend a lot on in

jos, social skills and and social cognitive abilities as well, but you mean we have to make judgments about, a place. We feel we ought to people and where we put them in there for how much time we invest in them Average number is always about five, but it does very between four and six or maybe even them Why didn't that brats? But typically will consider that in the caucasus due to close family members and to close friends and then one from I decide to make up fifth, but if you meet somebody really improve, hardly knew so meeting a prospective romantic partner who attract your attention is the classic case, then actually the amount of time you invest in that person results in somebody being squeezed out. In fact, it turns out When you fall in love with somebody, the attention and effort, mental effort you give to them is so great that you actually cause to other people to be friends

reviewing this out because they not thrown very far in they just shift over into the next leprosy where the fifteen layer of of what you might think of his best friends is supposed to intimate friends, so they're still there, but they just don't getting quite as much attend from you through the merit of family relationships, and here you, your rescued as it were in terms of being in your brother's social network, Family relationships seem to be much more robust, these kind of decay effects than friendship, sawdust Something about the kindness light as web of interconnections that families create, as it were, by the very fact that their an extended family that helps the whole people and in place so family relationships. They tend to be cheaper to maintain in that region. say: you can kind of leave them be and not invest too much in them on a day to day

bases, knowing that, when you can get together, you can pick up that relationship where you left off the last time. Without having been dented too much that really doesn't have with friendships. If you leave a friendship, be for a long time time you got a lot of renegotiating to do when you eventually meet up again. If that's a year, Two down down the line. Theirs in which, too some years. This discussion of friendship could sound light, not supervised well, but you know like not urgent, wherever you make the point and I'd love to you say more about this- that this actually is an urgent issue in that the quality of your friendships really will dictate the quality of your mental and physical health? Oh, yes, I think more the most surprising findings that has popped out of them:

black over the last decade decade and a half, probably not much more than that really in the medical literature has been the extent to which the best predictable, of your psychological health and welfare, your physical health and welfare. Even how long you're going to live in the future is just an quality. A number of close friendship you have a net is way more important than all the things you friendly neighbourhood doctor. You We worry about on your behalf. Will the things like when it? How much do you eat? How much I hold you drink? However ways all you. How much exercise do you take? What medicines are you on? What's the air quality in the place where you live, like all these kind of things certainly have

effect on your health and well being, but they all pale almost into insignificance by comparison with simply the number and quality of close friendship. So it we've just published a paper on urge as a prospective studies, though, it's kind of looking at how likely you are to develop the symptoms of depression in the future and the best predictor of not develop depression is it. Where is a major issue, and this is for older people is simply either having around forty five good friends for engaging in round about three voluntary activities is saved. You can. Companies does it by voluntary activities. I mean doing things I can perhaps helping to run the scout so helping out at your local church or some legal hobby or interest group, all your local club sports club, whatever it may be, held up

kind of social things where you beat people you in your kind of embedded into a social environment, with people can't do both you gotta five friends and engage in three voluntary activities that actually makes it worse off, because what you are doing is spreading yourself to send me, but you can have let's say be friends and and two activities or four friends and one activity or three activities and two friends who can trade off between the two and what that kind of speaks to me about really is the fact that it's being engaged with people seeing people on a regular basis is, is being immersed in a kind of social world cocooned in and in in this little social world, and that's what kind of lifts you up makes you just feel better, psychologically and, and that has these knock on consequences for your physical health, which are quite dramatic and in a really affect even things like the risk of heart

texan cancers and itself as an evolutionary psychologist. What you're take on why this is so important. How will this is a very long, but going at that? and came back to a sort of origin as it were. As a member of the primate, the monkey and eight fat as political family, the big evolutionary development that monkeys and apes If you like invented, is as a way of coping with the difficulty of successfully surviving in and reproducing and in the world, was the formation of bondage relationships in bondage social groups? Are they club together to essentially, I guess watch, each other's back as the main thing that's causing them. Problems is predation risk status is running around on the forest floor, the savanna floor, whatever it may be, apprentices tend to go further in individual

her on the prey animals that are on their own rights, so primate solution. Do that, as with any other mammals and birds, in fact, is to form a social groups as a protection. Everybody clubs together to reduce the risk of being caught unawares pressure, but the problem is by living in in close proximity, it's very stressful as we know, have you living on top of people It can be very nibbling at times say it is like his lakes and at their solution to that is the form. These very corresponded friendships which john keep everybody else off your back far enough that they don't destabilize. The group takes a very fine balancing act. Paintings is one reason why this whole family has such big brains compared with all the other mammals and birds and you know we just follow suit. You, as members of the family, is that this is also says it is well, except that we live in bigger groups.

Have a bigger brain that allows us to handle more relationships. That's the only real difference. The way we ponder friendships. The way we bond our social groups is very, very similar to the way monkeys, nape state, I believe, also written from the physiological standpoint, about the importance of endorphins yeah, the endorphins them in the brain which is kind of. little chemicals that a major part of the brains, pain management system, in fact infected. The name. Endorphin is a contraction of endogenous morphine because chemically there very closely related to morphine bought because the bodies adapted to them. We don't get addicted to them than that.

Just slightly chemically different to that we don't get addicted to them and they d very remarkable like them. A deeply involved is neuro, transmitters and many things they do, but they one of the things that seems to be very important as they underpin social bonding, so they create a sense of warmth and relaxation, and so the comfortable nurse and trust in one deadness. When we do things with somebody else that releases endorphins day a monkey snakes, social grooming. We have a highly specialised neuro system that run some. it is at the base of every Hafela, go in your body straight up into the brain and an triggers endorphin release. Whenever the hair of you,

the body mechanically moved, which is what happens during grooming, so grooming, social grooming, the leafing through the for to remove bits and pieces of vegetation? What have you that monkeys and apes do is the kind of quarter their creation of these bonded friendships, if you like, and that movement through the for of the hand as they pop the fire at and stroke, it is what Is this mechanical receptors at the base of the helpful? If you'll know, these only respond to light slow stroking at exactly about one and a half inches per second, if you stroke faster than that or slower than that, it doesn't set the receptors off and that speed turns out

the speed of social grooming- and we see it in humans, you can see the brain firing off. We put somebody in a brain scholar. We can see the brain firing or the brains endorphin receptors, firing up when we're stroked, very gently on the torso, for example, in these, although we obviously have very about hair anymore. Nonetheless, the receptors are still there all over the skin and as the their mechanically moved as you strike the skin so far ass, it happened and we. discovered how to exploit that system. More generally set weaken kind of virtually grew with more be because one of the problems with a touch based system as it is just as intimacy in a huge, and I don't want to get around caressing in and striking everybody in it. It's an entity, but even though you want to bond with them, says something you do with your intimates. But in order to sort of extend this mechanism out create bonded relationships with the wider community. What we've,

covered as he can trigger the same mechanism by a whole series of other behaviors, which now form a core part of our social tool. Kit, if you like these, include laughter They include singing dancing, many of the rituals of religion, feasting together, so easily essentially drinking alcohol in particular, and telling emotional sub stories all of these trigger the endorphin system. Extremely well and allow us to color, if you like, groom virtually with large numbers of other people and therefore bond bigger here. It is- and I know of all these thing really is probably the best they call it the icebreaker effect, because you can literally turn complete strangers into people who think they ve known each other, life by just an hour's community singing round the campfire analysing is what we're doing church or be nobody. Other religious services, verse cutter religions much

my conversation with robin dunbar ready after this. In the first part of the twentieth century, the hilton family had a lock on the hotel industry by offering upscale service at a modest price. The company was expanding fast in buying up iconic properties across the country, like the plaza and the waldorf historiae, but their unchallenged rise wooden last. An ambitious mormon named J w merrier decides to pivot, from restaurants, to hospitality and he's after hilton business, developing modern hotels across the world, but both milton and mary out, families will have to contend with their share of drama in finding a successor, while also fighting to stay solvent in a high stakes: business hi, I'm david brown, the host of one. We show business wars we go deep into some of the biggest

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follow american scandal. Wherever you get your podcast, you can listen aunt on the amazon, music, or wondering app, I've. A million questions on to serve tendrils of my interests spread out a lot of different directions, but just to put a fine point on the urgency. If this issue can I just get you to make your pitch to anybody out. There might be thinking consciously subconsciously. Other friendship is not something I need to take seriously format a psychological and physical health, What would you say to anybody who continue to harbour some doubt this be fair at the outset and say: look ass, a more social another. Some of us are happy on our own. We fear friends, some of us. We no kind of like to become more more social butterfly like and liked to have lots of rights, basically that at every stage of its next reports, the differences is simply that it works.

further to have your friends and give each other more time said the relationships more robust extroverts, but I had have more friends but to spread their available social time more thinly and therefore they have less close relationships on average deal just eat. Good ways of solving the same problem, but it highlights the point that some of us prefer to have your friends, perhaps a little more essential. In that sense, other people are really like to have lots of see lots of people in and have lots of friends, even if their bit more so to do it out friends altogether. I think it is very difficult and most of those who don't have friend the zulu for a while while they may feel very happy about that, there will come a time in the end, I think when loneliness will hit you and it will have serious psychological and physical consequences when this is what kind of underpins

a pandemic of loneliness. The term relieved of the western world is has been suffering for some time now in respect of the elderly that the air, they often feel very isolated. They can't get out, of course, so easily in is not up to going clubbing or playing a round of golf or whatever it is just physically, so they don't get out. They don't have the opportunity to meet people anymore and they end up with smaller, smaller social networks. and become intensely lonely in depressed and fall prey even minor illnesses that the rest of us would be able to shrug off. So it's fine to be on your own for a bit and know sometimes that's a relief, as you might say, from the pressures of the social world, but then stand that whole for too long I'm glad you drew the line there between extra version and introversion, because I have a little the both but I'd, probably lean

for an extra burden. I might have forgotten to ask that question some god you brought it up. It did bring d For me, though, I how you compute the fact that there are these contain put it or meditate her to live. Caves, largely on their own and appear from the brain scans. To be serve at the apex of psychological health yeah. Well, what are the reasons of course, is that they are often in doing things which are high. Rachel eyes and which we use very often in religious services, have one religion or another to bring people into trans state. So, each day the saw some suggestions here that town go again to trance involves the release of a massive endorphins surge, which is why you get this feeling of relaxation and calmness and all and at peace with the word

in the world is wonderful and and saw that you get from from going into into transom in many people's experience You can bring that on traditional because, if you think of native american sweat houses and the kind of rituals associated with them, that's one way of doing it, but equally you can sit in quite contemplation, and this is the the yoga tradition. As it were, came out of india, you can go into trouble in a quieter, more controlled way that often involves control over breathing and- and this harks back a little bit too the role of seeing in brief on this sensitive camera. battery and and so on, that we get and the the icebreaker effect, because breathing is very hard to do or to control. To do it very slowly in a controlled way seems to trigger the endorphin system. That's why laughter also triggers endorphin system. It seems sake. You know if you keep dosing up if you'd like to put it this way,

on these endorphin producing effects. You can do it on your own and I dare to suggest that if you walk past the gymnasium anywhere in the nearest city to where you live, or indeed you watch a group of joggers running along you we see people who are getting erin endorphin fix, Largely on their own and coming away from it, feeling really nicely set up for the day that the they know they can approach the rest of the days work and activities in a more kind of peace. for then like way, if we might put it that way it does seem to be remarked, still had ass, a physical activity will do it. That's why dancing works in this way, for example, so you can do it made sense, though, is it requires probably a special sort of person who would want

to be able to do that for the rest of their life and not have a deep, any kind of deep social engagement people, because one of the things they do find is, if you do any of these activities in synchrony. As a group of people, it ramps up the endorphin effect dramatically absolutely dramatically something about doing something like singing or laughing all physical exercise, even ass, a jogging group, rather than only ran all lacings ramp up the endorphin? It I can give you a much bigger peace. If you like to put this and you come out of it, feeding, relaxed and com Deep stresses that the world drop away from your shoulders, he could can face the day at work or wherever in a much more contented frame of mind. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about how to make and keep friends, because I suspect there may be some

the listening over saying work. I will first of all many of us are still you constricted because the pandemic either, because there the lockdown than our area, or we have some nervousness about going out or are off these are not open, but even beyond that there were other people out there who just feel like who are you Maybe I move somewhere for work, and I dont know how to go meet people and not to have any family and friends around or you the digital era, it's hard to meet people. So what are you? the people whose who might be sold but dont, know what to do about it. I think this is the great lemme the modern world, actually because it if you go back a hundred years or so from the great a lesson that even in a people spend most life no within a relatively small community in and communities in some sense function, much more as communities by and large. we ve become so mobile, particularly since the cut

second world war, when cheap transport became available and and and this sort of decreasing globalization that allowed us to move for jobs, or you know just gonna retire by the he sighed and your old age, and all these kind of things that we do, but it One of the difficulties everybody has he has to move, is kind of trying to re embed themselves into a new social network and The problem is actually because, thanks to digital media, they spend a lot time trying to keep their old relationships going on at the end of a computer when, in fact, actually they should be getting out of the question is where you go to meet people for most people in either to measure choices. One is way work because we spend such a large part of your life in the workplace and, of course, you get to know people and perhaps be friends and so on. The other is probably church based type whatever temple dr communities, the get you go, they provide

sue without a ready made social environment for the rest, its hard work because you ve got again seductive joint clubs, unkind. Maybe you hang out in bars just to have the ability to meet people in that that makes it much harder, so echoes what kind of sunrise nervous of doing That's a good reason, and so you know you end up spending more time locked in your room and it's hard to know how so that we we've have made this artificially arm into them put below ourselves as it were, and it's coming back to haunt us a little bit like kind of breaking up our natural community. In the way we had so

I advise is simply the best thing you can do is joined a hobby cloud with churches are fine. If that's what you want to do, but in general, finding places to meet people in a comfortable kind of environment is the key and and those kind of environments, and mostly provided by things like hobby clubs in seeing groups, said a groups whatever hiking groups. Any of these things provide you with just an obligation to meet people, and I left really the best way to do it. The other advice I've heard is that if you're feeling isolated or lonely, volunteering is a great antidote. Yes, yes, nedda! Absolutely and that's kind of what I was.

they meaning by these kind of hobby, type and social group groupings, is it by no sort of volunteering is great month. It's because you then put into a group of people because to make friends requires time, get too requires one estimate from one study was that caused something in the order of two hundred hours of face to face interaction with somebody over a period of several months to turn a stranger into a reason really good friend, probably not your best friend ever, but certainly a close friend and that's a very, very heavy investment that you have to make the amount of time that's required means you have to being in a position to have a reason to see them. That, frequently and- and you know, having a hobby group or a club of some kind that meets regularly automatically gives you that excuse.

I keep turning up and you know you can't force people to be friends with you. It's something that develops slowly and naturally- and you just have to give it time and- and so it's it's providing yourself with the opportunity to be able to spend time with somebody else, because once you've built up a small group of friends that very quickly snow, rules because they will introduce you to other people they just getting their initial way. And if you like. That's that's always the difficult thing and adopt it can take a long time. I'm afraid if you move to a completely new area which are advice about maintaining and ships once you have them The bottom line on that is just keep seeing them, but you ve, got you gonna. Make excuses to keep saying but be very careful. Don't ever do it in its people. There's an optimum frequencies which issued should see friends to keep that relationship taking over and that frequencies varies.

Pacific to the letter that they sit in and therefore the quality of the relationship that you have with every few overdue in your treading on their toes with respected their relationships. This remember It's all very well, you wanting to be friends with somebody, but they already have other friends who they are committed to say, nor to be your friend. They have to be willing to sacrifice one of their existing friends in some way unless they happen to be in the same position as you and of not having any any. and the claiming, but most people obviously are embedded in existing social networks. So you have to kind of, I wouldn't say prize them out of it exactly, but you have to persuade them that you are more interesting as a friend and the other four. Hence they have and that's it and they will make you know they they have to sort of k. Oh well, yes, sir. Maybe I'd like to spend more time with you, so it's kind of the subtleties of getting this balance right where the complications of this

world really lie. What your research told you about the virus. Ability of friendships across gender lines, they work. Ok, but chum. Is not as easy as I think. Everybody would like to suppose that seems to go back to a very consistent finding the whiff we found, and indeed other people have found, but it kind of call it s a little bit left field. We hadn't really expected it. I didn't think That is that the two sexes seem to live in quite different. Social was, those essential dynamics of aid, if the way they manage relationships and the way they create, and maintain relationships native for women is very much up.

Engaging on a one on one to one basis, for a much more intimate in that sense and is often base from conversations or deed. Let's play the site. Conversation plays a much stronger role in the creation and maintenance of women's friendships than is the case of an men's friendships. Sent me will defuse the more casual little bit here today and gone tomorrow, and they tend to be activity based, so they're kind of more associated with clubs, if you'd like to think of it. In those terms, a bunch of guys that do stuff together, I might be hiking in my nigeria sitting around having a beer in the guard together on a regular basis that the conversation is much much less important from in that respect for men and then one of the consequences of this that you see was actually another concert. once all the whale feature of the way our social

was organized soap de says. The ology issue first discovered it, but a lot of people have been working on this since including ourselves that have discovered that the single most important feature of what makes good friends is thing down some awfully size, edgy, meaning the love of the same, in other words, similarity friends tend to resemble each other, all sorts of dimensions and many others, just cultural, your likes and dislikes The young are believed to have about the world and so but also on features like personality, so by large extroverts tend to customer together. Introvert tend to cast together supper. and gender is one of those so around seventy. Seventy five percent of women's social networks

say the hundred and fifty meaningful relationships consist of women and seventy seventy five percent of men. The social networks consist of men that that figure remains absolutely constant from the age of five to the age of eighty five. Doesn't it, two budget all and because, ironically, the other twenty five percent of the opposite sex friends and family in this relationship, tat help may to be off only whom you have no choice over you're, stuck with If you like the ones that you choose. There's this very strong tendency for the sexes to segregate, and we we really see this very strongly if you watch people in conversations that have reception or some sort of free flowing social event like that to a yard party something just watch what happens in and you'll see very quickly by and large, the men war suitable gather together in it in little groups of

and and and the blue galatea little bits of women as party, because their interest differ and partly because the dynamic, so how they manage conversations is very different and united can just easier to create and maintain friendships. We, it's in a people who are more similar to you why people are the same same. Gender is not say that you can't have friends across the sexes, but it's much rarer than people probably think so. Women have this phenomenon called the best in forever as you and is a sort of almost a foreign concept to two guys. Definitely not in the I mean the guy can have a a best mate as it were that he does stuff with, but it it doesn't have the intensity of the relationship. The women's best friends forever have. If you look at who these

friends forever are eighty five percent of them earn of. The woman is only fifteen per cent of them. A man is one of the striking contrast. Is that they're that in the case of men, they either have a romantic partner or they have

the best friend as it were, who they do do stuff where they don't have both typically, whereas the women will invariably have both a best, a female best friend forever and aromatic pop. So I sometimes I have to confess I I wonder how on earth the social work to cleave the world of romance works at all when you ve got two groups of people who operate in a different way, if you like, the short answer is, of course, women and much much more flexible and adaptable necessary, it's kind of nor a hundred percent comfortable. From their point of view, I guess, but they are much better than opting to male stars in conversation. Order to fit in with a man than men seem to be able to do in reverse, so

in the world is kept going by the by the girls completely. I'm ready to believe that, let's talk about gossip, the term generally has a negative connotation, but you you have a bit of a different view. Can you hold forth on that yeah? In one sense, this is how I said it first became interested in this whole issue of of enhances the possible role of language in allowing us to gossip and by gossip, I kind of mean just hang out take over the yard fences really having a passing time with with a neighbour you're, having very deep, meaningful conversation necessarily, but in spending I want somebody I tend to to. It is really is gonna declaration of those that well be here hanging out with you. Down the road hanging out with Jim sites and an indication of my commitment to to use an individual. This is

Trusting because you always get oh well, listen gossip in a generally bad, we d like it and people a horrid and the things they say to each other's coastline, the true, but actually the original meaning of the term gossip going back to its anglo saxon routes. Is, God said so it's the peer group equivalent of a god. Parents. So it's what you did with the people who are unrelated to you, but in your peer group, your friends, in other words, and this sort of then got transmuted into gossip gossiping- is what you are doing with your your god sibs and in that sense it's a it's a very positive thing, because it's sort of the underpinnings of keeping relationships going as it were. But, of course nothing It's a free in life said anything that biology invents. If you like, and always ways end up being used for negative purposes as well, because we also compete with each other,

so using language and conversation to kind of try and persuade somebody to be your friend draws in somebody else's friend by kind of saying you know don't go out with with Jim, dreadfully you'll end up paying for everything night after night after night or whatever is I have almost an inevitable consequence. I think instead, sort of negative propaganda is a natural outcome of having anything, that's designed to provide positive propaganda, which is what it kind of in effect, was originally useful. So the bottom line here is that gossipy, it is to be understood really in terms of simply the stuff we do in terms of using language were hanging out with people, and, and sometimes we can use that maliciously or toward our particular advantage, but we're not fool, said the rest of the population they they know when people move

It's the time know when people are using gossip in a malicious land, and people are not happy with malicious gossipers, so using negative gossip as it were, people tend to get who use negative gossip a lot. A lot tend to get kind of austin eyes, because basically, you can't trust them and what really underpins friendships and relationships in general is trust. And if you lose trust in somebody, because you don't what they're going to say behind your back. Then you know your relationships are not going to work, so you will pull out so malicious gossip, as you know that it's a short term strategy. It doesn't work in the long run and, of course, it's very destructive for the community, because it kind of interferes with the natural flow of relationships round the community and tends to cause communities to

To fragment, I come out of the buddhist background and in buddhism, this concept of right speech or wise speech, and then there's the is also this great term summed up a lotta or something pull up on the best way to pronounce it. But anyway, you get to say it basically translates into useless speech, but it sounds like you're again broad understanding of gossip doesn't necessarily contradict the cut of buddhist. Can option of using speech wisely. It can be chit chat. as long as it's not model Jesus or slanderous, etc. There. Yes exactly that, and I think that that's perfectly sound observation that you make any sense.

I visited the idea of a completely useless chit chat isn't to be encouraged. Diver is probably quite I and I kind of think that language and conversation is most useful when you're establishing relationships. Once you get to know somebody well and of course, I suppose this is this comes in in long term. Partnerships is here, You don't need to talk a great deal, because you could have no exactly how the person is going to actual It's that I want to believe without necessarily having to discuss it at great length. So conversation is necessary and good for building relationships, but it becomes increasingly less necessary. I have this kind of always. This picture, in my mind, is way back in the seventies. Probably waited there was a lovely photograph of to our greek man sitting

some outside a tavern around some greek island somewhere, says that he is the table, just not saying a word, but occasionally taking a sip of coffee or perhaps a sip of their russo and I always say this is guys bonding we've known each other for life. They don't need to have to discuss the trivia of life. They don't need to have to discuss the great things of life they can just enjoy each other's company, and I guess that really is that. Second, but it's framework there, can before getting interested in friends and friendship. I take that be an indication of the fact that you didn't start your academic career to look at this subject. You gotta got there in a roundabout way. we're very roundabout about, has started out. Attempting to be a philosopher says I thought the any interesting thing

one could ever studies. I went to university to to study that, but they just happened. Variety of us you couldn't do that on its own side chose to do it in the end. In combination with psychology, which I took the least bad option of those available to me, but it turned out to be a kind of lucky break because it introduce me to the science is in the process and which I would never have done elsewhere- often think I'd gone any other university under just dump your philosophy, and I would now be a very bad second, then car salesman, some suspect it's. So this is my lucky first lucky break in life and by what psychology introduce me to do things actually cause one was those days you couldn't study psychology In course, I knew nothing about the subject really at all, but it introduce me to a kind of

the brain and the inner workings of the mind if you like and and and serious neuroscience and the light on the one hand, and an that whole gamut of various sub dissidents, psychology blue, so we were told animal behavior and a solid by nickel timber can actually the great nobel prize winner and his zoology lecturers and introduce meet our own behaviour, which would I would not have happened if I got anywhere else, probably to do even psychology. Took me off to study, monkeys in the world and then in him. If you live among monkeys, he started get interested in their social well because it so complex and save human and videos. Many many people will tell you this, who studied monkeys in the world and is very much like watching I say Babo indeed watching friends the teeth and use

Are you start getting interested in this very complex social world and, in the end, that sort of took me off to be interested in in in in how the human sexual world works and, at the end of the day, I've come to the realization. That actually is the human social world is the most complex thing in the universe? Is it's it's much more complicated than anything that astronomers to physicists, still really because it so unpredictable. The social world is so complicated, so dynamic innate thereon a simple rules, and- and this reflects the fact- I think that it takes us about five years to learn the social skills needed to handle this complex social world so as it as a generality, the length of time the developmental pairs of the period in which you

juvenile and sub adult in monkeys. Snakes correlates with the size and complexity of their social groups and and their brains, and the same is true of humans, that we have such a big social group and such a big brain that she takes the first twenty five years life to kind of put the software in, and you have to have the computer in order to all the calculations if you like, but which, on it's own, as with all computers, doesn't come pre programmed with because the world is so complex. You couldn't pre program all the social possibilities that you might ever meet. You have to have an an organism d, that's the whole point of having a big brain. You have to be able to

instead of treat each circumstance as you come across it or individually and and and work out from general principles. What's the best way to behave night, it really does take. It seems twenty five years to do that. We've shown that with a brain scanning studies, for example, that turn around the mid twenties, how you handle process and visual cues in particular, if emotions for example, says to interpret what the other person is feeling get switch from from the front end of your brain, where you think about things consciously down into the lower reaches where things are automated, you don't have to think so deeply about which made me rightly observed in the paper we published on? This is probably explains why teenagers struggle so much with their relationships, because their cranking out free dick temple, where,

It's been a once your adult because we never become completely skilled, says too much to to expect, but were sufficiently skilled, that we can kind of automatable a lot of a lot of the detail and and cope much better with the complexities and ups and downs of of the social will any contrast that, with with say, learning language skills and five year old child is pretty much at adult levels. In terms of the basics of language. You know they and as they can pretty much structure sentences perfectly grammatically. Well, you get the odd thing wrong. The of the odd was tenth wrong and things like that and show they acquire a much bigger vocabulary during the the rest of their childhood and teenage years, and they can learn how to structure much more complex sentences that tell much more complicated stories if, like

but the basic understanding of the principles of grammar and how to converse with people is in a pretty much doubt level, but the age of five and at the age of five, you still got another twenty years of learning how to cope with this impossibly complicated sexual world in which you have to live as an adult. professor dunbar before I let you go. Can you please plug your latest book and in the other books and places on the on the internet, where we can find you and learn more about you, oh well. My first book gets a lot of people still like actually is, you mean gossip and evolution of language, which is published Heavens twenty five years ago less than other whirled away. Tat was kind of fun to doing so widely available at other kind, later one on the science of love, which is published poverty about two thousand and fourteen. Something like that, but the one this just come out, which kind of puts all of this

of together and ticket or research over the last twenty five years, will you try to put altogether in one place in and show how it's all interconnected eyes. The book has just come out tat in in europe anyway, called friends, understanding the power of our most important relationships, its due to be published in the who s in january. I believe it is by little brown. But I'm sure you can buy digital versions of it in it in all good digital bookshops, close to you. In the meantime, professor, it's been a pleasure to get to know you a little been to hear, hear butcher. Your work if you come along. I thank you for having, beyond its being grateful. Thank you. and dunbar great conversation before we had out. Let me just mention again the ted lasso challenge it starts on tuesday cept. We're seventh over on the ten percent happier app just downloaded the act. That is where,

Are you get your apps in another way? Of course, get ready is check out season to obtain ted lasso. Just airing right now. They show made by samuel johns Gabrielle sacrament, DJ cashmere, justine, davy, Maria we're tell and jan point with audio engineering from ultraviolet audio special shut out to him come, I was no longer with us, but did a great job in her brief tenure here on the tv age podcast, and I should say she is the one who brought robin dunbar to our attention so big. Thank you. To Kim, and as always a shout to shadow terrain, Catherine just kill for maybe abc news will see well on Wednesday. With The economic was gonna talk about optimizing stress, she's, it incredible, professor from columbia university he's been on the show before, and I got a lot to say, especially about stress during pandemic and stress that might come up with you're talkin, about diversity issues, that's onwards The.

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