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And this offer is no exception, so get it before it ends. By going to ten percent outcome, slash December, that's ten per One word all spelled out dot com, slash december I'll, put a link in the shown up. Ok, let's get to today's episode speaking of relationships. How much would your relationships improve? If you could up your own emotional intelligence game? that phrase emotional intelligence entered the lexicon. Twenty five years ago, when my friend Daniel Gomin wrote a book by same name and so on this episode to mark the twenty fifth anniversary edition of EM general intelligence. We're having danny on the show by way of background, he's a harvard train sex just who, along with other contemplative luminary such as Joseph Goldstein, share in salzburg and John,

but Xin went to asia and discovered meditation back in the nineteen sixties and then made it a huge part of their lives and their careers. In this conversation, we're gonna talk about the four components of emotional intelligence how to develop them and why these skills matter so much in the middle of a pandemic. We also discuss empathy and relationship management in the age of zoom. The more shhh mellow test and impulse control a phenomenon he Does a magala hijacks I so many jewish kids in the sixtys and seventys got turned on to buddhism. Here we go with Danny anti government. My friend danny Goldman, good- to see you wonder. We see you, then you wrote this obscure called emotional intelligence. Twenty five years ago I paid because it became a massive best seller and let me ask your really basic question: what is emotional intelligence? Well, you know what

wrote emotional intelligence. I q was like the big thing and it was really speaking to people's overemphasized on purely cognitive abilities, so Marshall intelligence means being I about your emotions, and you know the way I look at it. There's four parts to that is being aware. Self awareness is a very big part of it. Knowing what feeling why you're feeling at howard impacts? You then energy, your emotions, using that self awareness to Get over a year, upsets and encourage a positive emotions, motivations and so on. and then empathy tuning into other people and what their feeling and to do I have to pick up a lot of nonverbal cues people, don't tell you and words, they tell you and other ways, facial expression and so on. Put it got all gather to me,

in your relationships well to be effective with other people that might be the most visible part of emotional intelligence. But, interestingly self awareness, the least visible part turns out to be foundational, when you talk about self awareness within the EU context, is it the same thing as mine, this? Why would say mindfulness is an application of self awareness mindfully in mindfulness practice. You want your mind very carefully? You dont, let yourself get sucked in to this thought or that thought you don't judge it you see if your knowledge, it you gotta, go, that's definitely self aware But you don't have to be a mine from his practitioner to be self aware any it can do at any time. What do you expect right now. What are you thinking about? What are you feeling answers to that are all self awareness it seems like it might be. Much

here to do if you ve got on my phone this practice I would say that a from this practice is the equivalent of getting cardiovascular fit, you know the more you work out, the more you ride, your bike, the more you do that trend. all the more to do whatever it is, the easier it gets. You become more able to exercise. Is for a long time and the same thing with action eyes. In your mind, which is what mindful Yes, it's a metal worker and the word Is you make a deal with yourself that you gonna watch your thoughts in your feelings and not judge them determine that come and go, and when you get distracted you get caught up in a thought, and you noticed your caught up. You bring it back to that. Mindful stance that bring it back, I think, is the equivalent of the you know lifting awaiting a gem. Every time you lift that weight, that muscle gets those stronger and I think.

every time you bring your mind back than brain circuits for being able to observe, what's going on, get a little stronger, socio concentration- and you know I just finished a book as my friend and I think you know I'm to Richard davidson- the neuroscientist- it wisconsin work, look at all the most recent best studies of meditation and we found that beginners become more calm and their more able to focus in interesting glean from a brain point of view, both of them things, use the signal circuitry. So self awareness is a fund. mental ability of the brain that book called altered, traits great book, and there we had danny and richie on the show. After the book came out, it will post a link to that. You spent the past twenty five years. you travel around the world talking to all sorts of different people about emotional intelligence. Since the book came out.

And I want to go through all four of the aspects. What do you recommend to peep well other than meditation in order to track. What's going on in their own minds, who you can ask yourself, simple questions? What am I thinking about? What am I feeling? Why am I feeling that it doesn't take a formal mindful? practiced. Do that just anyway, you can tune in to going on inside. You, in your mind, is a way of becoming self aware, so I would say that it is probably a spectrum there's more discipline, systematic self awareness, which is what you're calling mindfulness and there is a kind of rough and ready self awareness. Were you just pay I'll take a moment and then yourself and respect that may be the other end of the spectrum. When you came out- for twenty five years ago. Meditation wasn't call yet

Was this a way to talk about self awareness that would be more acceptable in the halls of major corporations, etc, etc? well. Actually I wasn't thinking about meditation per se when I rode emotional intelligence. I was looking at about a decade of search on the brain and emotion, which was like was a very new thing back then, and I was looking for framework that would allow me to encapsulate all that and the idea of emotional intelligence which, by the way, not my idea, that was the title of an obscure article by peter salivate, then, was a junior professor at yale. Now, the president of your home and a graduate student at his check mayor, whose now it universe, new hampshire. They use that word that phrase emotion challenge I thought wow. That is great phrase- and I used it for my book. So when I talked about self awareness in the book. self awareness

been around for a long long long time, because it could the greek philosophers they're talking about self awareness a lot and did not talking about meditation predicted happens, the framework of self foreigners allows for meditation to be a kind of application, but that was not really in my mind when I wrote emotional intelligence and the fact that its come in to education world in the business world and people's lives to such a great extent, and I think, to some extent because of your efforts is wonderful, but wasn't really my point, In writing the book marshalling intelligence, even though you were at that time already a long term dedicated meditation practitioner, Yes, I wasn't my private life, but the trope that I used. If you were in writing, most intelligence was

we from the work I was doing then at the new york times as a science journalist, the book was a way to report a lot of science in a palatable format and at the back, then none of that science had anything to do with meditation these days. That's a really hot topic, which is why Richard davidson, I did look alter trades, but in nineteen ninety five was in on the map. So, what's the second I'd love to go through the four aspects of emotional, in other words the second, so the first one is self awareness, and the second is using that inside what I'm feeling now wine field, to manage your emotions, a particularly disturbing, are upsetting. You talked a lot in there. Section about the amygdala, the brain's radar for threat and how it can easily take over the thinking, brain the rational, brain or prefrontal text in what I called in a migdol hijack where all of us,

out of nowhere, you just feeling really frightened, really angrier. That's the hijack and it happens very suddenly, and it's very strong and you don't expect it, but it makes you do something for say something that you regret later. That's the hallmark, the regret of the hijack. It means that what you do is not in your own interested interested. The other person and self management comes down to handling the negative, the disruptive feelings and then, also encouraging the positive ones- and I think meditation by the way is helpful there, though at the time I didn't really talk but by positive ones, I mean pursuing your goals. It turns out, if you have the long term goal in mind and you

sure how you're gonna feel when you achieve that goal, circuitry in the left side of the prefrontal cortex, just behind the forehead lights up and make you feel good and that keeps you going despite setbacks, or I just having a positive outlook and feeling you know things to work out so well. Today was tomorrow's a new day, so. Those are the kinds of positive emotions that self management applies to four. understand or reasons you didn't want to be one the meditation flag around two prominently. So what do you really? and for dealing with an amid hijack well, the antidote to the migdol hijackers, which called cognitive control, basically there

nation. This comes from my think, viktor frankl, in his wonderful book, man search for meaning- and I have to mention that they discovered some has a franco- was in concentration camps for about four years had surprised and he was a psychiatrist and he proposed therapy based on finding your purpose or meaning in life and, frankly, in his book says. Let maturity essentially is widening the gap between your first impulse and what you actually do or say, and in that gap you can decide. Well, you know my first impulse may be was big lie jack, I'm not going to do that and then do something more effective that real self management at the core of self management, and you can enhance kind of control any number of ways when you don't have that ice cream for dessert that you could ordered you're exhibiting cognitive control. When you tell you,

kid well, do your homework first and then you can play a video game. You're teaching your child cognitive, There is a set me street segment with a cookie monster. Where he's trying to join the cookie connoisseur club. in order to do that, he has to learn to sniff the cookie look to see. If there's an imperfection, then taken newborn well, that's very hard for cookie who was impulse embody but that's teaching toddlers, cognitive control. He manages to do it. Finally, so there's lots of ways to enhance cognitive control, counting to ten classed as a cognitive control trick, taking a deep breath taken in deep as cognitive control. So there's many many ways to do it, and I will grant you that meditation, particularly mindfulness enhances cognitive control. We know that, but there's amazing study was done in new zealand that looked at kids

ages, foreign aid and assess the card of control. The big assessment is the marshmallow test. You know, then wonder for those who, don't you might my shirt fellow, is was done at stanford university in the school a little four year old is brought into broom, sat down at a little table and big you seem smell, is put on the table in the poor. Kid is told you could have just now if you want, but it Wait till I run an errand and come back, don't need it till then you can have to, and then experimental leaves poor. Kid is just sweating out the seven or eight nsf and about a third of them goblet on the spot and about a third weight, the endless time and get to their track down. Fourteen years later and the two groups are compared and it turns out that the kids who gobbled yo can delay gratification pursuit of the goals. That's what this is a test of don't get along as well with their friends in the kitchen waited had a huge advantage on the college entrance exam score, which was a surprise, but

They ve learned better and in new zealand they tested kids. on cognitive control, their many different tasks. That was one of them, then track them down in the thirties and they found how they did as a kid unkind of control predicted their financial success in their health stronger than I q in childhood and strong. Isn't the wealth of the family to grow up? And just it's a great levelers independent ability and it turned out the kids who, by age, eight got good at it, but weren't so good at four had the same advantages and we know it can be taught. So I become a big advocate in teaching these skills of emotional intelligence to kids in school. It's called social, emotional learning. actually programmes become worldwide. But that was another point I made. The books of the second part is.

Motion or management. Soft eyes, not beyond the marshmallow test for a gesture of court, because the marginal tat haunts me, I'm a reasonably good database written a book. You both of us have written a book rise reasonably good. So much military added, its horrible leap of faith, often takes years to read a book and you're, hoping that it doesn't suck uncontrollably the process will but their open the product. You're really delaying all sorts of gratification. I have described it as being like on the cusp of a sneeze for four years: it's just hot greater. I couldn't do that complaining the whole time as you ve just seen, but I can do it, but if you put a marginal front of me, I'm going need it and

same thing with an oreo or whatever. I have no cognitive control around the actual marshmallow, so I have sometimes trouble computing. These two things so think about domain specificity. Eating is a different skill, set an indifferent temptation set than writing a book. You happen to be good, or at least willing to endure writing a book. I wouldn't put It is not enough, said, domains, specificity that helps So since our europe, I think a move on now to the third sphere, so the third is empathy, which is self awareness, turned outward turning into someone else and you're picking up what their feet link, particularly in your doing it without them telling you what they feel is people don't ever tell you in words are very rarely maybe your wife does, but very few people will tell you in weren't they

Are you in tone of voice and facial expression in non verbal, say, picking up not propose, and there are three kinds of empathy one is kind of you know how that person thinks about things. You get their perspective, you know the words they used to cut up that part a reality. The mental models it's called technically and this makes you very good communicator. You can imagine you know people who write books, for example. need to have this kind of empathy, because you need to know what words to you so people will a want to read and be understand can kind is emotional empathy in these based in different parts of the brain, by the way this is based on newly discovered circuitry. The social brain

which is largely the forebrain and these circuits form a brain brain link, is kind of silent back channel. For any time your face to face in front of some, This is sensing what the other person feels, and you pick it up, because you know because your bodies, picking up for you, you since their feelings immediately, and that is the basis of a poor feeling close. the somewhat the nourishing interactions we have in life are based on this. But neither of those kinds of empathy necessarily make you a caring person, so that people who are Machiavelli and manipulators or social, has can use this info nation to get people to do what they want, you can use For example, in an election message, you can use it and market you can use. It not necessarily in the best interests of the other person

What you want is the third kind of empathy which is technically called empathic concern. It means you care, but the person you have their well being or best interests in mind as the basis of this kind of empathy basis of compassion of wanting to help out the other person, so their different kinds of empathy. But that's that part of emotional intelligence in my world in your world too? We talk about the practices that one can use to boost once compassion or empathic concern the bottom of the horizontal, loving kindness and Karuna practices, mehta corridor practices. Were you envision people and silently send them phrases may be happy, may be free of sovereign. What are their recommended? since for building this muscle of empathic concern, I call that whole set of exercises the circle of

bearing, were you might invasion someone your grateful to your own life and wish them. Well, you hope that they be safer, happier healthy, that they have a life, is fulfilled and then bring same wishes to yourself and then the people, you love and people. You happen to know and then to everyone everywhere. That's basically the format the your talking about, and it didn't be within a spiritual framework leaving a religious framework. I think I can just human carrying the dalai lama as they talked a lot about how every major religion share, the value of loving others and of compassion, certainly theirs, exercises in christianity the do this and he often complains in fact, that food is by and large, don't do as much actual work. That's compassionate compared to say, christians who are going to review how on very poor parts of the world

set up a school or health clinic and so on, but at any rate he says it's not enough just to wish well the other people he wants to see. People actually do something but that's compassion, action and by the way it turns out that the exercises you're describing research shows do make people more likely to help out more likely to for example, give up a chair to someone on crutches and when there is no other option to keep to a charity and so on theirs research. It marks plugins tooth. It suggests, that this very kind of meditation that you're talking about our mind, training in a nine spiritual framework, enhances the brain circuitry that make someone more likely to help out. So I think that any way you can do it is for the good- and I happen to value compassion personally- is an ethic?

to act on the world. You spent a lot of time with the dalai lama and written a book about him just to name check another book that you rode. It's called a force for good. So if people are interested in your work with the dalai lama, that's worth checking out curious when you wrote emotional intelligence. What did you recommend people due to boost these capacities, given how important they are sudan, emotional challenges, not how to book. I didn't recommend. I said here's what it is and why it matters interesting, and I leave it to the reader to find out now, since then, I've got were involved in how you do it one of the things I do recommend, for example, this circle of carrying, but it might be, for example, in a business setting if you're, someone's sidney noticed are having a hard time and by the way, in the stay of covert lots of people are you might reach out to that person? one on one and just have a conversation about the person. How are you doing.

What does that person want from life or from the career from this job? That's caring conversation and it's an act of compassion, so I would say: there's a spectrum of compassion which goes from paying attention, serious attention really being present to the other person human to human. To doing something you're, describing that actually makes you more likely to be compassionate generally, the dye lama. When I wrote the book force for good about his, for the world, and he talks about a muscular compassion. He says many regimes in the world are corrupt and we found this out with the panama papers you another hundred and forty or something People in government rolls over using that role to enrich themselves and should the money in secret bank accounts. So it's a huge problem worlds,

I'd me said: we need accountability and transparency; he sees that is a form of compassion. He puts all of that under compassion, you doing things too slow or halt. What's happening with the climate, you see status Compassion is compassion, can take many many forms and he's pretty hard nosed about what they might be, so I think it starts with been kind and paying attention to the people were with and it can go into. Were you know social action, political action, there's a spectrum there to agreed, since you re, Is the spectre of covered in the era of Zoom any other thoughts for how he can boast. our emotional atonement time when, worse

in many of us just seeing our colleagues through screens, as opposed to right there in person. I think it starts with self awareness and self management and then goes to help. The reason is this: if you yourself were flooded with fears or anger, your view of the other person will be distorted, so the his job to be kind to be calm and clear, so that you can actually tune into the person. I gave a talk by zoom to group of positions in chicago who are on the front lines of covert Physicians today are finding that their income is being reduced because people Giving up having surgery lead is voluntary, rather than essential. There coming to the doktor because they don't want to risk themselves. So, on the one hand, physicians general They are having their income greatly harmed at this

in time there being asked mister lives by treating patients with cove head where they could get the virus themselves or bring it home to their family. So there's a lot, if anxiety among physicians, who are treating patients today, who are not treating patients because medicine, you know it's a little bit shattered as a business model. So, anyway, at one of the things I told them comes not from the meditation world, but from the world of yoga. It's a breath exercise is very simple. You take a deep breath into your belly. It expands you hold for as long as is comfortable. You exhale slowly and you take another deeper than you, your you do it of sixty nine times he began and the research shows that it shifts you're physiological state from being I in the fight or flight mode, to being very relaxed. So that's right on the spot thing you can do and then, if you want to get better at it

in the long term, you could do the kind of metal exercise we ve talked about that you're, calling mindful for sure, but that's it in a right on the spot thing you can do now, once you're, more calm and a little more clear. You can turn into the other person and by zoom its little hard. For one thing I think about this You can't have eye contact and assume you are either at least on miser, either. Look at the camera or I look at the person's picture, but I can't do both at the same time, because, the fiscal setup, so loss of eye contact huge in terms of act. returning it. You want to watch the person, but then the person feels a little disconnected from you, but you want to watch the personal care because if you were with that person, you would pick up their nonverbal instantly without having

make an effort and zoom you have to make a little bit of an effort. If you can pick up facial expressions, fleeting facial expressions, you can, You a pretty good job of sensing, the person's emotional state, and then you have a better sense of how to interact with them. What it is that person needs from you right, it's your king. You mentioned breathing action as is that this seems like a huge gap. In my knowledge, in the types of buddhist meditation at I've done, you can use the breath as your object. In meditation you're not supposed to breed in any special way, maybe take a few deep breaths at the beginning, but it seems like the I was just doing it on my own, just doing the deep belly breathing area worth grounded and I felt like I were relaxed in that moment. Bizarre or to say by breathing exercise. You know it's an ancient tradition in india and it's been.

to the west, largely through yoga. I'm talking strip, mall yoga here you go to the studio, and if you do a more serious indian, spiritual tradition, probably give you several ways to control your breath You can control it by did breathing more deeply or more shall only or inhaling exiled, more slowly than many variations, but it turns out that way. Buddhism was prompted to bed in the nice to eleven century. They brought the breathing tactics along with it, and so in the tibetan tradition. They still use breathing methods, but in these southern buddhist turbine tie and so on, traditions, at least initially the classical method. Just have you watch your breath and not try to intervene in it in any way. That's because you working with

your kitchen in your mind, but in other parts of fun, indian traditions they use breath. Well, I used to drain methodically. Actually in parts, so there's actually been less research on the science of managing your breath controlling your breath, then their heads, been unmindfulness, but it does show pretty clearly the physiological shift. I talk but as one of the major benefits as promised. What's the fourth aspect dave emotional intelligence- well, that's putting together yourself, awareness and yourself management in your empathy tuning into people. putting that altogether too, have a powerful relationship with someone, a good interaction response, but the most visible part of emotion, intelligence and oats, It would be wise. Someone would come away from acting with you by saying I

he's got a lot of emotional intelligence or he needs more hopeful intelligence. Depending on how at wind, but how, It went is largely the outcome of You know how you able to put together here. Turning into the other person and how your handling yourself, and so relationship management and show for a good our relationship being a good parents, being a good teacher, good colleague, good leader, goodbye ass. It matters all over the place and its head. How people pre much evaluate other people in this dimension. How things went when we interacted? They think it's probably the It's an invaluable part, all four parts matter, but relationship management is pretty much help.

You and me, and the rest of us are going to be judged in this domain by other people. I simply I agree with this, but I've had so many researchers who said The you know, human flourishing human well being and its opposite. I've had some people I'm on the show and say that the data, show over and over again that relationships are one of, if not the most important components of a happy life. Yeah, the reverse of that is loneliness is lethal. That is it ups. The is alive weird that you couldn't get a major disease and you can be depressed, anxious going to die sooner than people who are not lonely, people who have strong good relationships, and particularly, I think, Dan and in this day and age of covert, when people are afraid to have close face to face relationships, it's him

word and to try to maintain even assume contact, her phone call with a friend her with your family, To make sure your relationships is still strong and resilient, and resilience is by the way. A critical part of self management resilience means how quickly you recover from upset from anxiety from fear from anger and get back to that kind of calm, baseline and if your physiology is calm, your mind, will be more clear, so resilience help you handle relationships better. Because you can get over. Whatever is preoccupied you in tune into the person you're with, are their studies around what modalities work best to boost and resilience. Oddly enough for mediterranean mindfulness seem to help a lot. I mean it makes sense

because you know you you're over and over and over again, your confronted with your own inner cacophony and you ve gotta, be able to Let it go and go back to your breath. It means so here that he is resilience right there, its direct training and letting go of that thing, that is setting you weren't, you preoccupy new and being able to get back to something, else and by the way, I jacket at work or when you're writing a blogger when, during any task you care about being the people, love is actor. Emotions are strongest distractions, and so, if we can get over it more quickly, it means we can get back to what matters to us. That person in front of us are the thing we have to do today. So yeah, it's a critical scheme. And it opens the door to a strong, positive interaction with someone house, which is the basic diet for good relations.

I know you're of the view that emotional intelligence is more important now than ever. Why? I think emotional intelligence is a more useful skilled and it has been in the past because of cove and because of the hall, a faltering account me because of the ways in which we no longer can interact, naturally with each other and it's an antidote to each of those parts. First of all, it helps us directly with our own, in our emotional turmoil and how we can handle lad and how we can get over it or let it go or be resilient? And then it helps us the empty, more empathic, which I think we have to be today because of the constraints for under in relating each other we need to get along. The people in our part, in our family or whatever friends are

you know seeing us regularly and then we need to stay connected to people we no longer can see but really care about, and that takes empathy and the relationship skills, give thoughts on emotional intelligence as it pertains to venomous, partisan divide in the country and in other debates, set on. Watching around whether its even worth having empathy for people you disagree with because they pose such a mortal existential. threat. I have a really good relationship between one who voted for the guy. I didn't vote for and the last election and he voted for that guy because he cares about his guns and he fears that the guy I voted for is going to take away peoples. and he lives in the country and he hunts, and I can understand why he wants to protect his guns, though I actually dont, think the guy,

four is going to do anything to take away his guns, but I can see why be afraid of it, but on every thing we talk about. We really agree on a lot of things and turns out that in bridging divides friendships matter, then let them, if you can be the friend If someone who is on another part of the divide, this all kinds device, you know racial divides, ethnic divides, religious divides. If you grew up with someone Who was a childhood friend of yours, and that person is.

ITALY is on the other side of the divide. You dont harbour the stereotypes and negative feelings. Keep that gap big growing. So I think the friendship across divides her in the motion intelligence framework that fourth part having strong relationships, or at least maintaining your relationship, one on one is a way to heal that divide. To some extent, you may never change the person's belief system, You may never change their ideology, they won't change yours, but you will still be friends of a sort and friendships have to do with. You know, they're, based on all kinds of ways of relating only one of which has to do with part.

In politics, much more my conversation with any garment come up right after this you I've heard about master glass for years, but I've never actually check bout which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. But good news is the folks at master class, are now during this show and they gave me a subscription and as I look at this as I realise that this is a great place to feel a lot less stupid. The lineup on this is incredible. The people there recruited to teach it just kind of blows. My mind: they've got Aaron sorkin on in writing gordon ramsay on cooking, also thomas Keller. They ve got anna win, tore on creativity, jon, kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation, which is probably interesting and attractive people who listened to the show. No, I'm chomsky on independent thinking, staff, curry basketball. I could go on. I can't believe I've been sleeping on this happened. As I look

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It's been twenty five years now, since you wrote the book, how is immense intelligent showing up in the world as a discipline and now surprised by the reach of this idea. Denisov author you'll appreciate this. What I before the book came out, I was, what are you getting ready to set out another book proposal because I didn't think it would be a success and I was shocked at the uptake. It became a best seller around the world in many different languages, and it penetrated two sectors, particularly education. I mention this idea of social emotional learning, which covers the four basic self awareness of management, empty social scale before basics of social intelligence and ads thing that emerges from that, which is good decision making and by good decision making

for a teenager. It might be. How can I say no to drugs at my friends, want me to try and keep my friends. That's the kind of decision were talking about and that move its social emma s, ear has called has become worldwide, although it's quite idiosyncratic and sporadic. You know many decisions, at least in the: u s: decisions are made at the city, love honour, the grassroots level, her employer. Its course, so it might be in one town, one city, but not in another or one school private school and not another and then in the school systems around the world and their more than a hundred different programmes in his ear see a lot of emotional intelligence was arguing from a child development point of view, helping kids get a right in the first place, because their brain that sir three. Four emotional management for emotional everything is growing, as is our social circuit

doesnt become anatomically mature till your bid twenty. So I felt that was a powerful argument to help kids learned be more self aware, better itself, and has been to really tuna and other people to learn how to collaborate, how to get along. You know and help them build in schools has taken off and the other is business. I was surprised I had one small chapter called managing with heart and emotionally diligence in it all of a sudden. I was surprised to get lotta requests to speak in business settings. I had expected to draw but has taken fair I'm just doing an article for harvard business review, one Building an emotion, intelligent organisation, because the data is very strong that if you have the most intelligent leaders, if you have more intelligent teams, it helps by business metrics hard metrics of crime. The profit and many many major corporations in one way or another have degraded this into which got their hr human resources,

how they hire They manage performance, but they looked for and what they call hybrid chose future leaders and in training and development of leader if they may hire people because their good it. You know software writing, but they assume that they can learn to be better at emotional intelligence, which is gonna, help them persuade people on their sovereignty to pay attention to this idea. Had her gonna help them get along and collaborate as a team member or become a good leader. So it's taken off, I would say in worldwide to my shark, and particularly in business and in education and thinking of that, at harvard business review, article you're working on right now and the question that came to my height from some people in the audience might be thinking, not running the organization, I mean. How do I get my bosses to be more emotionally intelligent? Ah, that's a question and frequently

and one thing I cautioned peoples do not confront your boss and said you need more emotional intelligence because each of us after all, however, may find allies in the organization. Maybe peers of your boss. You can talk to your boss about, you know, maybe you could use a little help in how you give perform its feedback tat. Something people often do in a way that damaging instead of a mostly in towns, curious about your meditation practice. These days, practicing for quite a while you ve studied in india, your closer the dalai lama, who do you consider your teacher these days and what is the main emphasis of your teacher? Well, I a great from a kind of advanced form of mindful is called the pastor insight meditation Two were kind of tibetan cousin of that which is called so chin and

subway actually was done along with third Joseph Goldstein sure in salzburg, sam hairs of whom you may know. Who are still major teacher the insight, tradition, the mindfulness tradition, but we're interested in how the tibetan practitioners were doing a kind of what seemed to be a more subtler subtle form of this practice, and I've kind of stuck with that my main teachers along the way, some of them and passed on one? talk of her again ricochet, whose meditation master, was trained into bad, another can sure same and then another third ADI web issue who stayed in tibet. All of them were trained in the kind of old culture of, before the chinese communist took over and then their students, particularly the sons of, took her again

Look innumerable shea men, europe issue and suddenly ricochet actually between my writing, a book on meditation How so I've stayed in that tradition and that's my practice to this- does not being your and has been on the show a couple times: There's a certain america in the tibetan buddhist world not talking about practice in too great of detail. But how would you describe the difference between zog chin which ways. For those who look, it up is deasey. Oh gee Cfcs good. Well, then, thank you, you're how'd you to try the difference between sojourn in four pass on our inside. I would simply say that this is certainly a level of continuum. The big with inside practice. The your merit is really thought occurred of honour, its simply thee

Warning about a pride, an ego and tat can about your own practices, though your own practice was a big deal, that is seen in that tradition is a danger. Do you find yourself just as committed to your practice these days, as you were back then we'll Ashley, what got me really committed. Those fighting the book on meditation research with richard davidson, because saw there was a kind of dose response relationship as they say in medicine, the more you do, the greater the benefits and he flew. Do his lab one by one. Fourteen yogi is all do sanction practice, and he found that their brain, its function, didn't really interesting, positive ways. There were rather different from ordinary brains in that me motivated, so now I try to keep as much of my morning free to practice as I can in that varies from day to day.

I believe there was some conclusion that retreat time is quite important for there's a hint of that the research it seems that daily practice thirty minutes a day an hour a day, whatever it may be. Ten minutes a day is good for maintaining the progress you've made. But if you really, if you want to advance people, seem to do that more quickly on retreat by retreat, I mean going off somewhere, We have no distractions and then devoting all all day for series of days to just practicing there is this whole I'm using this word tongue in cheek cabal, of people in your age bracket, jewish who and to india and elsewhere in asia, learn meditation in the sixties and seventies and came back and really, if tat were quite an impact. So you ricky davidson joseph daul, seizure in salzburg, jack corn field,

MARC Epstein, Sylvia Burstein, Tara brock was a little bit younger SAM Harris is also younger, but all these folks who Jon kabat Zinn wish definition of leftover then there is the sort of jus Bu overall he's actually a hindu, but the recently passed rom. Does this whole group of really brainy george give most of the new york airy with some from stand who ended up overseas? Studying this practice, and bring it home and then having just a massive impact through either through science or journalism, more teaching. Writing about meditation? What are you ready is going on there. Why so many people from similar background. Why did all of you get interested in practice so intensely. So I thank you it zoom out and look at culture and society at large lands and think about what

did so many people from that same background, become marxists, a century centric. Why did somebody people with that background, become my site. Landless. Why have people from a largely marginalized minority, been freer to adopt the next new thing. Then people who, were, I would say, solidly in the mainstream of that society. That's the way I think about it. so there is a certain risk when left harvard to go. india and the risk It's none of my professors saved one or two father made any sense at all, and in fact richard David said he and I were in the harvard graduate programmes in time he was told by his professors, point blank that this interest

be career. Ending. You may have heard that from him, and that was the cyclist time. So why were we able to take a risk I do now that the risk is the same for everyone. You have mentioned some of those people. Sharon, for example, was an undergrad and she went in here where I met her Joseph had been in the peace and he stayed on to study this so jack, and actually I don't know Why would the time that he became a monk for several years and I think it has to do with the freedom that being on the margin brings in a society. That's my take. I'm only half jewish, but my dad was just a really good worrier. Do you think the jewish cultural and ran toward anxiety, is playing into this as a factor that might be, elated, I know I got into meditation myself as an undergrad because of anxiety

lord my anxiety, I dont but that was everyone's motivation. I think it has to do with something that may be related, tangs idea, which is risk taking taking a risk, It can be anxiety, inducing I would say, getting involved in a new idea for a new way of seeing things or a new practice. least new to your culture, is taking a major risk. This may be a risk in your career in your personal life, but it's not something you do easily when I was asked about this. The other day I didn't have the wherewithal to say what you did about me, Jaws communities, but I ventured anxiety, peace as a part of the explanation- and I also say something about the fact You think about the jewish community in the united states is pre, secular, and so there may have been a sort of spiritual thirst

I would say this: I would say that those people from that community who take those risks are from a secular aspect of it. And the second reservation and judaism started in europe with the drive to assimilate and become part of the mainstream, culture and then that came to america? I just want. Also whether the secular nature of american judaism- could have created a sort of thirst for meaning a thirst for spirituality among these young jewish people who got so intrigued by buddhism. Here, I think that's a good answer to. I would go I'd. Go with that. Also, when I would The temple is a kid I was kind of like going to a protestant church. There was no particular juice there. There was a great cultural identity, but not a great spiritual feeling, and it was much stronger. Clearly when I went to india in an indian com,

sure, and you know, the meditation practices were an application of that that could be brought back to the west, interestingly, not for it's spirituality, although there's that too, but it's gone to scale because it has practical benefits and the you know. American culture is quite pragmatic culture. Oh it's going to help me ease. My anxiety is going to help me. Stay focused is going to help me tune into other people, have better relationships, in other words the kind of emotional intelligence, level of benefits is the great cell point I think, from meditation or mindfulness its scale in the culture. People who want to go into depth go to a place. We can do a retreat spirit rock inside me. Patients society, but if you wanna get at it. Europe in you, know, hr and your corporation. You go this to our class and that can accommodate alot of people but you're not gonna, go very deep,

This is an opinion biting, I think, formed one. I think the contribution by this group of people sometimes referred to as the jew boozing you're, a put you in this The contribution to the teaching of the practice of meditation the sign that is validated the worthiness of said practices, its incalculable the impact- and I personally am dreamily grateful to all of you for the impacts out on my life in the impact. I have seen it having on many other people's lives at that's where I was going with all this. I agree here welcome it just seemed to bury the right thing to do is just in terms of making the world a better place, theirs alone. More to do with way and it doesn't show him home meditation. You know I've. I quite concerned for MIKE and children about what's happening to the planet, and you ve got a kid

You know we're going to have to think about the life still live. I once having the planet and what can be done to turn things around release more adaptable. I think this enormous blind spot amongst us all on the actual environmental impacts on the eight global systems is sustainable. for the planet of everything we do every day in everything we buy and use. We I have no idea for operating plying? Did I think, in terms of the dialogue as much good compassion, wanting transparency and taking responsibility. They would be a great thing if we could now at the point one would think their buying something you know. In what ways does this damage the planet or helps the planet, Am I contributing to the problem to the solution I getting this thing by using this thing

And what about my habits? Are you know that's what I would love to see for the future of the planet. it's a little far afield from a most intelligence, but maybe it's an application not doesn't feel that garfield to me and I'm glad you brought it up the way I see it is the practices of him or or the development of emotional intelligence, and also the practices that we've discussed and secular, mindfulness and also buddhism. prepare the ground internally for one to act externally, I think they do. But the fifth point is not self awareness that self management, its empathy compassion? Yes, if you have that is ignored, star part of your since a mission. What is your life about? What have you contributing? Then? I think that the working to help the planet follows

without it. Then you know you're just living your life and having good time or as good a time as you can have, but not doing anything to help future generations or the planet's health I say this all the time on the show and I don't apologize to listeners. You may be tired of hearing me say this, because I think it's important a huge shift in my own birth. Practice was turning in a more some manner toward the development of empathic concern or compassion friendliness, etc, etc, and I've seen how its I mean I am far from it. The person. I have retained the capacity to be a schmuck in many many many ways, but I just seen It shows up, in my own mind in terms of my own willingness to turn toward other people suffering and try to do something about it again by no means a perfect person, but I think if I can do it, anybody can, as I had and I'm glad you said what you said, because I think it

actors in small steps. It's not a major up. You know you'd transformation, but rather how I'm actually paying more attention to here's. One, a homeless people who have become homeless say Said one of the biggest shocks to them is how they become invisible. People walk right, buys though they did not exist, just stopping and talking to someone her stopping give them something something to eat. Some money means that you ve noticing. That is a huge but small step and it I would say it's a metric for people who live in cities How's, your compassion, meter doing and there's lots and lots of analogues of it in all kinds of different realms. You are you giving money it charity or you in time are, you is what you're doing moving the needle in that direction in any way.

Danny authority, question. I should have asked but fail to ask. Yes, I want to talk about my podcast, so I'm excited. Did I'm going to join? You is applied castor. I am working with a team of people on a podcast called first person, plural, which is we it's about, the emotional intelligence and beyond gets into things like one of my first gas? richie davidson talkin bout will being loi Santos, who taught that one of course, at yale, unhappiness and dumb by just the talk yesterday with lama, rod, owen, very interesting, teacher, talkin, bout rage and love. I think a very positive, fruitful way and I'm enjoying it because you know writing

but it takes a long time and you may have an idea you want to share with people, but it's gonna be like two years or more before anybody sees it and one of the nice thing spot podcast is instant or near instant gratification. I'm fighting, I think, oh I'd like to featured this idea This person and this aspect of emotional intelligence, or something else that really peaks my interest, and I can do it pretty quickly by doing a podcast, so they just starting a kickstarter camp. and in her first season, will launch after that and then I think continue its called first person. Plural will put a link to the kickstarter campaign in units great great job. My friend, thank you for coming up big thanks to danny great, to talk to him at any time also be thanks to

but who worked so hard, but the show together, Samuel Johnson, our senior producer, moorish, snyder men and dj cashmere- are our producers. Jewels dodson is, are p r, sound designer is met, point of ultraviolet audio embryo tell is our production coordinator. We had a ton of wisdom and guidance and oversight from our tpa colleagues, including then reuben nate, Toby, gent, point endless, Levin and finally, big. Thank you to my ear he knew his comrades, ryan kessler and Josh co. Him we'll see on friday for a bonus a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon. Music. Downloading, amazon music tat today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad

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