Don't miss out on the ngos everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth. If you haven't tried walking meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here is one use your head to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog the long I use it the more I learn the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life. Changing that's awesome to hear, Although the ten percent, happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free, from ABC this is the ten percent happier podcast I'm dan Harris again today show we're talking about secrets,

we commonly misunderstand about secrets and why there is such a high price, both physically and psychologically, to having secrets did you know that there are three eight categories of secrets and statistically, according to my guest today, you probably have about thirteen of them right now, Michael sloppy and as these sandford see bernstein and co associate professor of leadership and ethics at columbia, business school. He studies the psychology of secrets and how keeping secrets affects our social life and our work life, particularly as it pertains to trust and motivation he has studied the consequence of keeping secrets, including how they change our behaviour, judgment and actions, and in this conversation we talk about the hardest part of having secrets and the toll secrets take how other people can help us handle our secrets in a healthier way.

The difference between shame and guilt and the benefit of knowing that difference, the implications of his research for managing teams and the impact of societal systems and structures on our tendency to keep secrets just say quickly? There are some brief references to abuse and other dramatic events that people keep secret. So, just a heads up on that, if you're a long time listener you ve heard me talk many many times about our companion, meditation app. You might even be a little sick of it. So you might ask. Why does harris keep talking about this? If I want to meditate, can I just go on youtube and search for guided meditation for free or sit in silence on my own or use another app first, all. Yes, all that you can do all those things there are met different ways to learn how to meditate and if you ve already found one or more ways that work for you. That's great! You go with it. However, I do think there's something special if I do say so, myself about the relief

the ship between what we do here on the pod cast interviewing world renowned experts getting there take on issues that impact our minds on a day to day basis and the app where we share practices specifically chosen to help. You will apply the lessons learned here. The bike asked there's a kind of deliberate symbiosis. In our conversation a few weeks ago, the meditation teacher seventy Selassie hit on something key about this relation, Let me just play you a quick quote from her, I'm a big proponent of what I would call integrating study in practice. So combined with our practice are what we call insights. That's why this tradition is called inside. It is these, aha moments and so great at articulating man bringing people onto kind of disgust that like what is it that we are learning and then how to he could have reincorporate that back into the practice. I will be honest. It makes me feel

a bit uncomfortable hearing said praise my interview, skills. She may or may not be right about that, but what I Do you think she articulates brilliantly? Is why we're so? How about the aforementioned symbiosis between work we do here in the past in the work that we do over on the app practice and study work best encounter because your he several parts of the mind at once. That's how I learned from my teachers hearing aging, my prefrontal cortex reading books or article two having conversations many, those articles and books were recommended sent directly to me by said, but then also doing the practices that help me sort of integrate the wisdom into deeper parts. Of my mind in my body, and that's really the experience.

Striving to bring you hear a ten percent happier, the wisdom of experts explained in a reliable way, alongside practices that help you apply, which you learned. So I encourage you to give it a try by downloading the ten percent happier app for free wherever you get your apps so end of pitch. But thanks for listening, Michael sloppy and thanks for coming on thanks for having me, let me ass the most obvious question in the world. Why secrets? How did you get so interested in that? Not in a direct way in a rather indirect way, and I think that's proved to help us learn a lot more about secrecy then was the original plan. I was originally and gradual, interested in studying metaphor and the ways in which people use it to better understand abstract concepts. One such example of many was people had this curious way of describing secrets as if they carry physical weight, as if you carry a secret around with you as if it can be a burden,

salmon way you down and so a long time ago now the question was you know? Why do people use this language? Does it reflect something more than just figurative speech and you people actually feel, as if a secret can burden them, and so we ran some studies where we asked people to think about a secret. They were keeping and it did look like when people are thinking about a secret that they were keeping. They acted in the same. As folks who were caring physical burden. Well, sir, they judge details as steeper as if it will require more effort to walk up them. They judge distant thus far there as if we require more effort to traverse distances. If the secret was sort of holding you back or copper in your resources? What was funny about those studies we re seeing a burden from a secret even in him, went when the participant wasn't not hiding it and that sort of change the course of where this research has gone. The past

in the years that a secret can burden you, even when you don't have to hide it. In a specific moment, I see okay, so I was confused, so he can't be secret don't have to hide it, but will you mean is literally wasn't relevant to the current situation, yet our secrets can effect and far more manner. In ways and even during the moment, especially during the moments when we are not hiding them when you're hiding a cigarette dear. Just make sure you don't say it: that's not so bad It's all the other moments where the cedar can come back and sort of return to your thoughts, What's going on here, why do secrets way us down? So much is an interesting question because You can imagine an alternate universe where secrecy is not hard rain view. I mentioned something you just don't on your mind that you don't want people to know about it. Just don't tell it to them. It's not so easy, though, and so understanding why we don't know. That world, I think you can

see a number of ways that things change, what you have if you have a secret and something really important to you and you're, not talking to other people about it You're alone, with that secret, we're not gonna, find the best path forward. If you're just thinking about it and your own you're not gonna, find healthy ways of thinking about it. Those come from conversations with other people and sue, turns out to be less about the moment of hiding and more about what it means to be living with a secret alone with a secret. So this gets us into made a little bit gooey, but none the less really true and relevant. Important areas around kind of very few ways to talk about this without lapsing into cliche. But of being true to yourself, being I mean litter being true to herself being vote, or a ball being been. Am I

hunting in the right direction. Here absolutely I'm people feel inauthentic for having a secret from the people around them and it turns out it doesn't matter when you hide it? It's the more you find yourself thinking about that cigarette, the more you feel inauthentic for having it. So what do you recommend? Because I can think of secrets I own life? I mean I've divulged, a lot of secrets and I can tell you it feels, but you know I thought when I wrote a book about having a drug problem and having panic attack. As a result, that that I was gonna be dead, but it turned out to be just the opposite. It was completely invigorating in it felt like I am so much less to hire felt freer in my public movements and private movements, but I wasn't really hunting him privately, but in public you know, as a news anchor, I just felt much more at ease because I was really being myself and yet

There are things in my life that I don't want to divulge publicly or privately, because I feel like it would create too much pain yeah. So that's where things get complicated right. Other people for are part of this, and so as azure trying to decide whether to reveal something you're, not you might have a concern. While I revealed this to my partner, this could hurt their feelings or academic our relationship or destroy our relationship. You know one, that's the consequences of revealing your secret. It makes a lot of sense. You would consider other things before that and so what do you do? actually a really easy way out of this kind of conundrum, which has just talk to someone else you, don't have to reveal the secret to the person you're hiding it from, but you know if you choose carefully and if you choose the right person, you ve had so much help while it still remains a secret. How do you put this to work in your own life? I try

I have to have secrets, and when I do, I try to be sure to talk about it with at least some one. I tried not to have a secret that only I know if you don't reveal it the person in question, though, aren't you still keeping a secret from that person, and can it not play a sort of insidious role in your relationship ray, and so these are the hard ones You maybe your relationship could withstand the revelation, or maybe your partner would say. I recognized wasn't easy for you to tell me, and I am glad that you felt like you- could trust me that we could handle this together. If you think that's a possible, if forward, then maybe it isn't the kind of thing that you're better off talking about you know difficult conversations are never easy, but they don't necessarily get easier by a sort of putting them off. They probably in fact get harder and so

if you are struggling with you know, when's the right time to reveal it. How do I reveal it again? Someone else can really help you sort of come up with a game plan for what's the right way forward. Other people such fantastic greece, citizen it so easy to forget that when you're used to not talking about something I'll, give you an example. This is not super loaded, but it seems apropos the one of the things I do in my job is talk to younger employees, about their jobs and one of the young staffers that I was talking to recently was telling me about the fact that he had a new job and he felt very insecure about the fact that there were things that he was being asked to do that

didn't, actually know how to do it. Wasn't that he's not smart, he very smart. It was that he gloomily admin train on these technical programmes to edit videotape, and I said the first thing is: do trust your boss? Yes, gotta, go. Tell them a sap, and he did it and you got trained any feel so much more confident. The spill over effects were drama Eric, beyond just the acute issues related to his job responsibilities, he found himself feeling more comfortable speaking up in it coral meetings, etc, etc. It really lifted await that example serve really nicely illustrates that some secrets to have it time line where a dinner, maybe sooner, is better. He got the infirm and he needed sooner, and that would be really helpful, and certainly if your situation is that you're trying to decide

do I do with this thing that might get worse. As you wait longer, you know it sort of that's one clue that maybe so, talking to somebody about their sooner. To get this another perspective, if you're not talking about this thing, that's in your life with other people, you're just stuck with your one perspective on your own, and it won't be challenged in a way that you want it to be challenged yet some ways the net results of research- and I want to dive into the war of the nitty gritty. Other bit seems like a huge task. The way is talk to other people. Social connection is important. Yes, on the one hand, it feels lobbyists that, on the other hand, people don't do it? you find that men are tougher nuts to crack here than women

in thinking about gender differences. One thing that we have looked dab is related to this question. You're asking is there some sort of different rate of secrecy and it doesn't look like there's different rates of secrecy across men purses women, but they do seem to confide secrets and others differently in this. Is this point and that before. If you have a secret that you're not telling person a you, can talk to person b about it, it's still secret from person name, so you can confide a secret in the second person, while still maintaining secrecy from the general person, and it seems that women can find their secrets more often and then do men. Men are more likely to have it. entirely to themselves- and I think, what's happening problem We bear is to get help to talk about a secret. That's our request for help in some manner. Maybe not split

Sadly, they require sort of opening yourself up and and making yourself vulnerable and seeking others support, and some of those things are tied up with gender stereotypes. It's like why men won't stop to ask for directions yeah. I first stumbled upon your work because I read a reference to it. In a book by Sharon Salzberg the great meditation teacher, she wrote a book she's written many books. The book in question here is called real love and I can't remember the exact context, but she was talking about a study you did with gay men in this study. Will we were trying to sort of get at the sense of you know the meaning behind these actions really matter as an what makes it a secret hard is not sort of the technical aspects of holding it back in conversation, but what it means to be holding it back, and so, in this study we recruited sample of game

and they were in one of two conditions in both conditions. There, talking to an interview or who is asking some questions, and they were told that this is a study on an impression for me and where to show your video recordings, other people and there it is mixed. Judgments about you and work to ask you to try to hide some part of yourself from them. When we record this, video in one group of participants was told to do what ever they did not reveal their sexual orientation. The other group of told to not reveal their extra version in. We got a little lucky here, because we are hoping that our participants with identifies extroverted in almost all data all, but one and what's nice, some of the non verbal features of sexual patient and men. An extra version are similar early, stereotypically, so expressiveness sort of car and both of those, and so we thought asking them to conceal or to start to hold back the rest of us

They might do something similar and their non verbal behavior, but the meaning is totally different and sure enough for the folks, you were concealing their sexual orientation and follow up supposedly that he was over and someone was just walking by the rumours that hey. Can you help me move Some of those stocks at journals over there and the folks who just conceal their sex orientation were less inclined to help as if they felt burdened or fatigued by having through the exercise of concealing their sexual orientation. So interesting, do you have a sense of the physiological mechanism is their suit. The short answer is that we already know. Concealing secrets is stressful. At least anecdotally. People lost it's kind of stressful to hide something back in the moment, if not operator uncomfortable, but you found in our own research. It's even stressful suggest simply think about a secret and we ve seen even with their second physiology, to be sort of the markers of feeling.

sort of aroused, in stressed by just simply having to think about your secret. We established in the course of this conversation that one of the big answers here, if not the big answers you talk to other human beings, However, I suspect you're not advising us literally just spout our secrets all the time to anybody who cares to listen. That's correct! The personages matters quite a bit and so we ve done research on what people are looking for in a confidant. So I can tell you what people find very helpful usually will align with what you'll find have on people are, I go to confide in people that they see as compassionate in our empathic, taken, carrying and kind and in warm people also like to confide in people who are assertive someone who might push you to do something after you tell them what the problem is? Someone who just gives you the push that you might need. Those are things that people like in a confidant there's some things that people find

helped form in a continent which is mere politeness, so someone who's is more concerned with sort of social norms and rules. People don't find be very valuable in confidence and then also folks highly social and extroverted internal bubbly happy go lucky, people tend to us not too late to confide in those folks, whether maybe they think also to blab talk about their secret or assertive. Have too many connections with people that you now in it does turn out that the more you have overlapping networks, if your secret is about someone in that network you're, asking a lot to sort of could fight a secret to that person could now they have to keep the sea? on your behalf, and so what this all adds up to is you should look for someone who will be helpful, but also someone you can trust your secret with someone who can keep them ass set. The interesting thing is you don't need a very positive response to feel better? In fact,

in a lukewarm response from confiding a secret we find is seen as helpful. That makes people feel better. That's all it takes good. I care that it you knew, they told me it was fine, you know, maybe they weren't the most helpful, but it still feels good to have these conversations and so someone to you will have that helpful conversation for you and will be discreet, will be very helpful, Have you looked at in your research? What, if any benefits there are for the confidant yes said there are both benefits and cost serve. The cost is email treatise it as if it were your own. If someone combines a secret in you and it's Like your best friend like now, you have to hide, secret from them and now the secrets gotta be on your mind and we find even having another per secret on your mind can feel burdensome. But there is a good two people understand that confiding seeker

as an actor intimacy in an expression of trust in your making yourself vulnerable signals, a lot of trust for that person. I guess another cost would be. I know somebody who is perceived to be it is genuinely compassionate as a consequence, a lot of their time is spent talking to people about their feelings, and that can you know just prevent this person from doing their own work. Does that add up to? You that sounds. You write to me it's interesting to think about who those individuals arm theirs. The term emotional labour. That is more in the context of certain fashions, require a lot of emotional labour, but you can imagine someone because they're so compassion in carrying in such a warm resource that they sort of take on more burden of other people's secrets. I could totally see that that they have sort of the extra emotional labour to work through, because their such an attractive, confidant.

And yet I found my own life that, while I do has worry about the cost. To my time worry so much, but haven't carry somebody else, a secret good. I guess maybe nobody's ever told me something so burdensome that I just have aids wade me down, but The feeling of being useful of being trusted the intimacy that created to me just a mile and a half on here that being confided in the benefit seemed a vastly outweigh the costs I think so too, and you you know who will work as a content on and who won't like. You'll choose the right person at it and it doesn't take much. The response has to be very negative for you to feel it has backfired. Take us through on a stroll through your research. What the I must have been how its morphed overtime. The original insight was that it seems to be that there's something burdensome about c

its other than the moment when you're hiding him, and so what is the nature of that burden, and when does it affect us? We see that first of all people report having their mind wandering return to thoughts of their secrets much more frequently than they actually have to conceal their secrets, and so even though the whole point of a secret to conceal it whenever required. That actually turns out to be a relatively infrequent experience, for While no one's asking about your secret cnet, no one's asking. If we ever cheat on your partner, no one's asking. If you ve ever cheat on your taxes These are the sort of normal questions to ask people and. Their only relevant to some of your conversations and so the actual task of keeping a secret, even though that seems to be the sort of stressful part, one where it can hurt you them it just doesn't happen very often, but of all the time in the world. To think about your seat on your own. If you're choosing to be alone with the secret dear guaranteeing

you're gonna have to think about it. Once in a while a few choosing not to talk about this thing, other people there's only one- then you you're leaving sort of left over to our through this. Your own mind the bad news is you're not going to get a job if you choose to do it alone, most certainly it will be less effective in less healthy. Then if sort of brought someone else into the conversation when You find your mind returning the thoughts of your secret. We see a sort of ways in which that is more helpful, ways in which that can be more harmful. For example, the more folks are really focused on the past one thing about their secrets: those are deftly more people at risk for these harms of secrecy. You can't change the past and so

that sort of pr separating on that past is probably not going to get you anywhere very useful when folks are more thinking about the present and the future thinking about secrets seems to be more productive and less counterproductive, because we also tend to feel bad about these things that we're keeping secret. This is why we're keeping them secret in the first place, were concerned that people will judge us negatively or worse, are more harshly, because we have. feel bad about our secrets that there's these two emotions that are quite frequently part of the story. Shaman guilt, folks, times uses words interchangeably, but psychologists have this important distinction that they make where people who feel shame they think of themselves, like I'm a bad person, whereas when you feel guilty, you think I've done something wrong. behavior is bad? so my haters bad, his guilt, I'm a bad person the shame and the problem with feeling like a bad person

home with feeling ashamed, as there is no magic pill that turn someone from a bad person do a good person. If you feel like you're a bad person, it's really hard to understand how you can change that into folks will feel helpless. powerless to change if they feel ashamed, but we ve found it. So we can change that easily. If we just ask you to thinking about how this reflects on who you are, it doesn't have to be that way. Think about how this lex on your actions your behavior me be wrong, and if that's the way, you're thinking about it, that's good cause. You don't have to act that way. Next time, you can do something differently. Next time It's really helpful to understand to sort of evaluate behavior negatively rather than yourself and when we sort of help people understand that distinction and wreck As you know, it was my action that was wrong. They feel better said the good news about this distinction is. We can just simply pointed out to all participants.

and when we asked them to recognise that they need not think about this as reflecting poorly and who they are as a person when we get them to instead. Think about this, reflects partly on you know something I did once that makes people feel more capable of coping with the secret. They recognise that can do something different going into the future, and so, when we sort of pusher has been away from shaman toward guilt, much more healthier outlook followers they feel more confident in they feel like they know a passport, but more of my conversation with Michael so can read after this academy is a new scripted, podcast fellows aver richards, a brilliant scholarships. Attending bishop grey economy, the countries most exclusive boarding, school academy, takes you into the world of a cut throat, private school, where power, money and sex collide in a game of life and death binge alternative. The academy, early and ad free on wondering plus welcome to the bishop gray academy, the cup

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over on the wondering app or on apple podcast, welcome back two heads up as we had in the second half of this conversation. First heads up this conversation was recorded during a time. Covert rates were very high in the united states so that some helpful context for our conversation about the intersection of secrecy and covered and also towards the end of the interview you're going to hear one of our producers dj cashmere chime in so you'll, hear dj, asking a great question of our guest. I like to get producers into the game once in a while. So here we go once again with Michael slept in I've. Curiously, study, design designed mean you talked about the study of the gay men earlier, but how Do you study secrets in the lab, the inn lab part is something that I have a lot of thoughts on by in the lab. You mean

the in a lab space, where we sort of created a secret from nowhere? You know the sort of classic full experimental control like There is one person in the room and you're trying to hide that you know from another person kind of like the study I was describing earlier. I don't think that kind of study has very much to offer in terms of helping us really understand our secrets in the reason is that the lab cities are just to artificial. Not only are they to artificial there only to tell you about the psychology of a secret born five minutes ago. You just can't get the real kind of weighty secret that we ve been thinking of into the lab you just can't if you good, it would pose ethical problems, but you can't anyway, you can create a secret that someone's had for ten years in the laboratory. Just this is impossible.

Well and so the way I do my research is say you know what we're going to sacrifice experimental control and instead just learn about people's real secrets. We're going to ask people about the full secrets, they're, keeping and worker to learn how those secrets affect them. Today, and how they hurt, and we ve come up with this list of common categories of secrets. That we use in our research and its a list of these thirty eight common experiences that people keep secret and the average person from that list has thirteen that those thirty eight categories of sea threats. Ninety seven percent of people have at least one of those categories of secrets right now, and so we ask not just about one of your secrets but per each secret. You have from this list We look at these variables of interest and so were looking at the psychology of sort of all your secrets, both your big ones and our little ones rather than sort of

dig them in the lab and looking at the effects about, can you what through some of the categories internationalist all thirty eight, but yeah is there be exactly what you expect a lot of secrets around sexual behaviour, infant, the mental health, a lot of discontent? Content with their social life. Are your professional life? Are your physical appearance down their loves secrets related to work, whether that sort of poor performance, martinique, cheating and some can pass it? He things like that. Would impostor syn I'm fit in here. That's an interesting one. So there's this grey area that sort of complicates things where for its account as a secret. At least in my book, you have to specifically intend for that information. To remain unknown is that there might be things that I don't know about you. The reason they don't know about those things is just they haven't yet come up in conversation in,

be happy to discuss them. If they were to now would be different or maybe it's a people. Don't know about you and you wouldn't normally just tell anyone, but you would tell someone that you ve got close to and that sort of privacy for it to count as a secret. You have to really specifically not want other people too now, and so, for example, if you felt like you, have this impostors in german, really important to you that people not know that if you really feel like you are holding back from them, then that'd definitely a secret. So if you had posture syndrome, and you don't want anybody at work to know, but you did talk about it to your partner or shrink than it wouldn't be a secret. Oh, no, There would still be a secret at work and way. You down as a consequence. Yes, but then the good news is, if you're talking about it with other people. They're gonna give you some useful advice and there could be a secret that you ve told

everyone at work, but not your romantic partner, ray I'm. So a lot of people can still no a secret, but as long as it still unknown by some one else sent you your because her keeping it that way then install secret. But As you said earlier, you can relieve some of the burden by talking to somebody, even if you don't tell the aggrieved party exam so. In that case, I would describe as confiding in a third party while maintaining secrecy from the original person, but I think the hard fact here is there may be times where are we really have decided that for our own safety or for the mental health, somebody else we're gonna keep a secret from the victim or whatever from the relevant party? When gonna talk about it with others? Nonetheless, we're gonna be paying a cost, even if we talk about it with others to to reduce the costs. Right and again back to your data, so it sounds like the bulk of the data is from direct interviews with actual human beings. Yes and we can gauge those over the internet,

so we don't do it in person, because I think people are much more comfortable and to these things and sort of the anonymous internet space, and so people? a little bit more comfortable in that environment via its mostly with americans, and so there is this need for future research to understand. You know what lies is this culture is. Are you know what doesn't? This goes back to the question of serve being true to yourself or authenticity, as the kid say, keeping it right Oh, do you think we can tell when somebody's secretive, or to put it another way using other people can tell when we're holding things back. So this is a really interesting question that I have recently been thinking about myself and so there's a few different ways to think about this. If we're thinking about the studies in the lab, those studies where we bring to people into a room?

your some. You know clever reason. Have one person conceal something from the other person when we're talking about those kinds of studies? What's interesting is that you can't you can't tell people can't, whose concealing whose holding something back and who sort of being honest, if that's the comparison, and so in some ways people can't tell In some ways it would have to be this way because we're not- and reader is right- I can't know- exists What you're thinking unless you tellin me now, if you in a romantic relationship, and you ve been with someone for awhile and you kind of no when something's bugging them, then it's alive but different when you recognise, when you can see, someone seems to not be fully opening up. I think you can tell them that doesn't mean they're necessarily keeping a secret, but you can see those things are related, so I get

there would be no secrets. There'll be no point in even attempting to keep secret if we were mine readers and yet you have established that their psychological physiological costs too having secrets and that it can interrupt the sort of authenticity. So I'm just wondering there must be some sort of social costs to being secretive in that people might not trust us or that there we animal listings. We can pick up when somebody's, not. All the way, honest, that's a great question. You are right that if you're these this keeping a secret and that's an isolated one thing, I intend to keep this thing secret from these people and then there's being secretive and, of course, being secretive means are more likely to have more secrets. But when folks are secretive here, that is something that people can recognize, that

Someone is pretty closed off. That is noted if someone sort of doesn't reveal a allotted information about their private life are just their thoughts and feelings. They'll seem both more closed off and folks who are prone to secrecy in this way There are also very reluctant ever ask for help. They sort of feel like their problems, are too great to bring up with other people so being secretive, especially harmful because it means you often don't get the support you need. You started not opening up with people to the extent that others do. One thing it's likes me as potentially I'm not all secrets, let's be honest, have to do with our own perceived misbehavior, you might keep secret that you were victimized. There are lots of things you could keep secret, but one potential fix only from a buddhist perspective. Here

wood to some secrets would be to lead as ethical a life as possible. I mean it's often referred to as the bliss of blamelessness, no proof action is not on offer here. I don't think, although I guess him at buddhist buddhists? Who enlightenment would disagree with me, but but nonetheless I don't they from us enlightened worldlings. If we're gonna be perfect per se, but wooden one thing that would under cut the need for this. Rather, as you ve done, trade is sort of noxious tool b to live as ethically as possible. Yes, that would certainly help with the secrets that touch on sort of wrongs and harms and immoral behaviour is the sort of course the other cigarettes secrets around sexual orientation, that you no secrets around preferences secrets around mental health and belief in ideology. The still those secrets, of course,

Of course, in around, like I said video, you may be the victim of a crime that you don't want to admit and some sort of abuse in your childhood. Many people keep that secret for lots of reasons that are understandable. You talk about beliefs. What are your thoughts on secrets as it pertains to the current political Environment we've collected some data on that back in two thousand and sixteen, if in all remember a world before trump was elected president. At that time. Like other folks, we thought hysterically I was going to win that election and we were really interested in something that was happening at the time, because there is this sort of secret invitation. Only facebook group that went up that two thousand sixteen election or in advance of that he doesn't sixteen election. That was for people who supported Clinton but for whatever reason felt like they couldn't voice that support publicly the people around them? And here was a group where you could feel safe, voicing our political support,

So we designed a study in the lead up to the teeth of sixteen election. Imagining that the prototypical person, was keeping their vote. Are political preference or beliefs secret were wanting to be essentially people who are secretly supporting Hillary Clinton? We thought we might see a lot of, for example, women in red states who didn't want to admit to their husband that they were going to vote for Clinton. We were very surprised when that was not the prototypical secret voter. We saw a sheet of Unexpectedly, very large proportion of trump voters and our data it is all the more remarkable because this was a context where people Lena little liberal from the population we are drawing from, and so, despite drawing from a slave. Liberal population, when we specifically said: ok, we're interested and people who are secretly supporting, candidate, but telling people their voting for someone else, those people- overwhelmingly trump supporting and what was interesting. was that they were especially concerned for their reputations and

this is why they are keeping their two thousand sixteen vote for trump secret. It says a lot about why, potentially, why pulling up exist until this day Yang unit. That I think this is part of that story. I think that stories complicated and super nuance, but at least when we put up an ad saying- hey, where it really interested in folks who voted for one person but didn't tell people about that are even told people, they voted for someone else that add just pulled in a bunch of trump voters, and we were super The price that we can't even get that many people to report this kind of preferences in This sort of liberal leaning population, and so who are these people keeping secrets from their spouse in their family, their friends, people that are very close to, and I think that one lesson from that research is these are people you can talk to these conversations. People should be having but they're, not How do you think about secrecy in the context of a global pandemic

I've been thinking about that as well. I think, what's interesting about this time. Right now. It is if you're engaged in some social activity. Even if you started following all the rules, even if its distanced in your rang a mask, if there's like a photo that goes up, maybe you don't on a photo on face, because it is afraid of sending the wrong message, and so I think people feel like they can. reveal potentially these everyday behaviors and there's some potential. concern about doing on thing and sort of publicizing that so we're being he grid of now about breaking the court court rules yeah, I think so I think you know I think people are taking I have little vacations where they can and sort of trying to be hush hush about it, and I guess you would argue, there's a psychological cost to that yeah I mean there's all kinds of costs and that this actually

just here at home. You know by the students got in trouble for travelling men breaking the rules that they agreed on the universal. Rules and sat there sort of real ramifications of started getting caught. You met this gets back to the ethical peace. Now, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions? We carry about secrets and secrecy. I think the biggest misconception is that the way in which a secret hurts you is the stress- of hiding it in conversation and the reason why it's not helpful to have that idea. Besides, that, it's wrong is you're, not understanding where the real harm is If you don't know how your secret hurt you, it's can be really hard to find a way forward or to reduce. those harms, if you dont, really understand where they're coming from secrets, create these restrained blind spots, because Not talking about them. We don't understand them as well as, kurt and we don't even understand how their hurting us and so is really helpful.

understand no, actually, where your secret is hurting you it's not about hiding it. It's it's about being alone with it, because when you we stand by. It suggests a very different path forward. I think you said: have you see? it, is less and act in a state of being. We over and over, because I've had many many social scientists On this show- and it just seems like the one of- if not the keys to human flourishing is social connection in anything, you do that inhibits. That is likely to have significant backdraft. Yet the only way to connect with other people in this world is by sharing experiences with them. that is what their connections are made out of, and so the whole back from that you're sort of looking back from the primary way of connecting work. Significantly more secretive before you drove into this world of research, I think so. I think

I try to have fewer secrets. They often say researches me search. I thank you for not asking me to rebuild a secret I've. Definitely not asking that DJ. Do you have anything? I mean I'm a personal question image. Instead, it go loved. Why? Just so I hear down on this concept- bad living? A more ethical life might reduce some cigarettes, and when I hear you, Michael on the notion that there is some that are kind of unrelated to that end, but I'm thinking two about what you are saying around Sexuality or what you are bringing up down around abuse like it feels like there are some pretty strong structural forces that are supporting secret but it's not just the people are making bad individual decisions that, like society, is teaching us to be ashamed, and I was just wondering if you could. I'm wondering if that's a correct, side and mike, if you can talk a little bit about

you know beyond individual choices we can be making like, is there anything else we should be talking about here when we talk about the damage of holding the stuff inside? So I think a really great example of this. Have you know that the cost of holding certain conversations back. You know it's very easy to see with, for example, the the me to phenomenon and that the meaning that that has no it's enabled people to forward in the way they felt they couldn't before? And so now we're having these conversations that we weren't having before and we should have so you know when people are keeping secrets when people feel like they can talk about something it sort of it uses some needed conversations that need to be had. They can really block meaningful change I regard as very perceptive a wise question. I think we tend to think of secrecy is something

it's to do with individual decision making, but in fact there are societal structures and strictures that incentivize us to actually not say things that would be healthy to say in particular, I'm thinking about sexual identity, but there are lots of areas where we need to think about this issue structurally. Does that land for you, yeah yeah, in thinking about how to make people feel comfortable talking about these things, one of the unique challenges of having something that's a secret and that you want to talk about with other people but for some reason, aren't if it's not the kind of thing that just in conversation. You have to bring it up and that can be hard that can be hard if it's not the kind of thing people talk about. That can also think about the system. Who is in a leadership position at a company and within teams that that company there's this concept of psychological safety, where, if everybody on the team

no matter where you find the hierarchy, feels comfortable speaking out saying things are, otherwise they might keep as a secret or hold is a secret. The team will function better, and so those of us in positions of. already need to really think about what incentives were providing consciously or subconsciously how to create those feelings of safety. It's, u reveal something and sort of make yourself vulnerable and doing so and feel safe. To do that I was giving a talk. Recently too, a business unit at a large fortune, five hundred company and the headed out business unit opened up by two thing about his own anxiety and imposture syndrome, and and mentioned that he admits in this several times and I just think that kind of modelling of just basic humanity and frailty really incentivize as other people to actually be themselves.

there is one of the easiest ways to make someone feel more comfortable opening up. Is you opening up to them? First, they feels very natural, assertive reciprocally exchange. Disclosures final question: from a: u dedicated your life understand it to the study of secrecy. What is the impact you hope it has on the world? The impact that I would hope for is were bringing these secrets into everyday conversation and helping people understand you're not alone in having secrets, in fact, quite I you know the average participant in my study has thirteen secrets from this list of thirty eight that we have and so secrecy is credibly common and the kinds of secrets we keep our pretty similar to some or all keeping the same kinds of cigarettes. We're not alone in that process, and so that's one thing, just understanding how common secrecy is in and that yours It's a shared and then helping

will understand. What's harmful about that experience. They may not be what you might have expected. It's not the moment, when you have to buy your tongue, it's when you have to just be alone with a secret without others help in helping people understand that the way forward is you don't have to reveal the secret to the person, but just getting some help from other people feel uncomfortable to talk about it and getting their guidance and advice and support. Yet it sounds like a more open world yeah you it's not that you have to reveal all your secrets tomorrow. It's ok to have some. It's just. We ve how we have more than we need to Michael. It's been a pleasure to talk you thanks for having me. thanks again to Michael. This shows me by samuel johns DJ cashmere can become a maria or tell and gent point with body.

Engineering by ultra violet audio and, as always, a hearty salute to my abc news. Colleagues, ryan kessler. Josh co hand was next time a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music, downloading amazon music cap today or you and listened earlier ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go to us Alan and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering doc slash servant,.