This is the ten percent happier pack cast down harris hello again. What are the central themes in my life and in my work has been the balance between happiness and ambition. Can you boost your com quotient without losing your professional edge? Today we ve got a guest to challenges. A lot of money deep conditioning around this subject. I have for better or worse often defined myself by my work. One of the first question I asked people when I meet them is what do you do I even ass kids. Sometimes what are you gonna do when you grow up? My yesterday argues that it is psychologically dangerous to define yourself your work. Now he is not anti ambition is just that. He thinks that, for many of us, things are out of work,

particular he's worried that we often get too focused on the dream job simona styles off. Is the author of a new book called the good enough job here? a writer designer and workplace expert from San Francisco. He is a form design lead at the global innovation, firm idea and a graduate of Stanford and university of pennsylvania. We talk about his argument for diversifying our sources of what makes a meaningful life. How passion for your job should not be a stand in for pay or security and how to balance the pursuit of meaningful work without letting it take over your whole life. I should say this is episode. One of a big four part series were launching today calls sanely ambitious without labour day would be a good time to kick this thing off over the next two weeks. We got episodes about how to integrate mindfulness into work and how to handle big emotions at the office and how to

redefine success and more, I think, you're going to like it hit me up on twitter or via the ten percent happier website or the app with your feedback. I want to hear it unrelated little plug here. I want to, put in a mention four alive event of doing outside of denver at the mile high church on november? Third, if you can't be there in person, you can watch the live stream. There's a link for tickets in the show nuts As you know, we're in the middle of a big series on work here on the pod cast, which was a good time to point out that, even if you love your job, you will experience stress. However, stress does not necessarily have to be a bad thing can actually be something you harness to your own advantage to help you navigate stress this fall. We ve taken one of our most popular courses from the ten percent happier

a course called stress better and we turn it into a meditation challenge. You will learn from a renowned stress researcher, at columbia, university, professor majuba economic and from the amazing meditation teacher. Seventy selassie, but teach you how to use stress to your advantage. It's a seven day, stress, better challenge and a kick ass on Monday september, eleventh than you can join over on the ten percent happier app right now. Everyday you'll get a short video, followed by a free, guided meditation to help you establish or reestablish your meditation have it to join the stress, better challenge, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting ten percent dot com. That's all one word spelled out if you already have the option to open it up and follow the instructions to join. If you're, not already a ten percent happier subscriber, you can join us by starting a free trial that will give you access to the challenge, along with everything else on the app

The show is sponsored by better help. Sometimes in life were faced a tough choices in the path for it is not always clear what did yogi barrow say when you come a fork in the road. Take it not very useful, although I guess kind, why are we don't always know what the right way to go is, and I find myself in a fork in the road or places in there where it does more than fork, and it can be really helpful to have expert advice to make better decisions. Whether we are dealing with this, around your career, your relationships or anything else. There be helped. You stay connected to what you actually want. While you do your life, so you can move forward with some confidence and maybe even some excitement. Trusting yourself to make decisions that align with your values is like else and life. The more you practice it the easier it gets. I spent quite a bit of time going over big decisions with my therapist ten

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At the time only add sleep, number stores or sleep number dot. Com see store for details. Some one monet dollars off. Welcome to the show thanks there. It's a pleasure to be here, it's a pleasure to have you here. So let me ask you a very basic question: can you just lay out His thesis of your book, you I'd, be happy to answer the title. The title is the good enough job and it's an allusion to the theory that was devised by this british. pediatrician named donald, been caught in the mid twentieth century. and so when I was observing how there was this growing idolize nation of parenting, these british parents wanted to be the perfect parent and shield, their kids from experiencing any sort of negative emotion or harm, and then, when the kid never really thought, frustrated or sad or angry, the parent took it. Extremely personally,

I thought it was a reflection of their own and shortcomings, and so when I thought that approach that valued sufficiency as opposed perfection would be better off for both the child and the pair learn to south sudan. Take care of them. Problems and and wouldn't lose themselves and their children's emotion, so obvious I'm making a draft parallel to the working world and the ways in which were jobs have become idolized, particularly in the past for decades or so, and borrowing from winnicott, arguing that an approach that values sufficiency a good enough job may actually benefit workers exchequer a crying tyler job, not something that's always in our control and thinking, a job as good enough away to support the life that you want to live as a whole.

To the central access around which the rest of your life orbits might be a formula for more of a film and happiness in the long run. Your honesty fancy tat is, I completely agree with when it got on the good, an apparent thing, having tried it for a couple of years and at love it, but constantly screwing, up, on the good enough job, given my conditioning, as you know, what homo economic, yes or whatever hard charging ambitious raised by our charging, ambitious people, surrounded by them part of me years that and thanks. I is perfectly reasonable. A part of me ears like oh well, you just given good idea, even just looking at the title, you might think it's just like slacker manifesto. You know of a good enough job, an excuse to sit on our catches. But in actuality you know the thing that I like about the framework is that it's subjective, so you get to choose what good enough means to you. Perhaps,

it's a job at a certain wage. Perhaps the job, that's innocent in industry. A job that allows you to have a certain type of impact. It's a job that gets off at a certain hours so that you could pick up your kids from school at three o clock, but the other side of big enough job is the foyer to dream job idea that there is this wine perfect job out there, that, if you have he found out. You can continue their search. Your whole life, and I think that argument that are making is about the value of diversifying our sources of ideas. Meaning am it has an investor benefits from them. define their sources of stocks in their portfolios to benefit from diversifying the store, there's, a meaning and identity and our life and

thinking about a job as just one part of but not the entirety of who we are builds a much more stable foundation. Even if you are ambitious or you want to do world changing work, and I believe you draw the analogy to romance. I mean many of us raised the idea of finding a soul, mate Tom cruise saying you complete me with string music swelling beneath you know the dream partner or the dream spouse, but. There are probably many people we could do the work of making a great life with, and you want to have more people in life than just gestures, has to rely on so you're, not putting all the pressure on your identity as being part of that couple, and that diversification applies. who work, yeah and asked her. Proud has done some really awesome work on this topic and she basically says that will often looking into a single person to do

the current job of an entire village things, to go through in the united states these days you know what the decline of other sources of identity and meeting and people's lives things like. Can religion I never had, and community groups somebody kids are turning to the place where they spend the majority of their time the workplace to fulfil all of these needs of belonging and community an identity and purpose and I argue that this is not necessarily a burden, our jobs. I designed to bear it so I had not heard that argument that organise religion, argument, visa viii work until I started preparing for this discussion with you. It's really interesting because

We see so many fascinating consequences of the decline of organised religion, people turning to everything from so cycle to their local meditation parlor as a replacement. But yes, This work has to fall into that and it becomes even more central to our lives is that can be unhealthy there, there's this colleague of mine at the atlantic, Eric thomson who claim this term work as them, which I think is so apt, and I remember the first time during this term that felt resonant to me. Another esther, proud quote, is that to me we must bring the best of ourselves to work and bring the leftovers home. Maybe this you know one of the main causes of workers and as if giving all of our best time and Energy too, our job is weakened. Neglect these other identities that exist within us another, their neighbour,

The parent and the friend and the traveller, an artist but under another couple of risks that are really shown in the past few years in the pandemic. One of words- that your job may not always be there. he treat your job as their primary source, said, identity and meaning, and you lose your job what's left. This is lesson that so many have had to have to learn in the pandemic data for lower there lay offs, and then the third is just about expectations, uniting often about happiness, has been sorted out friends between our expectations and our reality, and when we have these sky high expectations of looking to our jobs to do very transcend answer south, actually asian and creates a lot of, from underneath that for disappointment, yes, and I would say that provide and I've had to careers intertwined one meal being it closed, trotting journalists and the other being a closet self help

both of them have provided a lot of really for meaning an transcendence and, of course, a lot of betcha too. To agree and I definitely have gone a lot from different jobs. I've had in my life, anything wrong with a job a source of meaning or a source, identity. I think it's just becomes risky Are problematic when it is the sole source of identity, uniting arsenal they lifestyle revere people whose identities in their jobs neatly align their social. To pursue an astronaut anchorman, for example, there's. This anecdote talk about in the back from a moment, my senior year of of college- studying, poetry and economics- and he can only see the sort of tension between art and commerce in my life- and I had the opportunity to interview my favorite writer and the entire world, his name is a name,

merge ganny is their current poet, laureate of the state of origin, and I remember I asked him, is how do you feel about the mantra? Do what you love and never a day in your life and here I expecting him to give me this pep talk about following my passion in pursuing poetry in the money, will follow and He said something that I ll never forget. He said you know Simone some people do what they love for work and others do what they have to for work. So they can do what they love. I know not working. And neither is more noble, and I think the last august then you know I've been lucky enough to align alot about interests with livelihoods and majority if americans majority people do not actually work to solve actualize, they were to survive, and so he was professional, lawlor professional no less. Tell me that

Maybe it's ok to have a job and do ass. You love when you're, not working. Guy thousand percent. Agree with that there are the issues of for lack of a less annoying word privilege or luck, wanna talk about your background, but I can speak with authority about my own and it's massively lucky. So of course, I had more opportunities to use work to get a job that would self actualize. I haven't had to work to justice. dr so just wanna, plus one on that, and then I know, people who may also have been raised with a lot of privilege and just haven't, found a passion, and I can among some of them that they feel guilty about that. That's not a moral failing yeah! I mean in the united states. You may think it s in the way we idolize work and the way that we treat seniors celebrity is in plaster. always do what you love on. The walls of our occur again in here are self worth than our productivity

you're so tightly bound. That not finding a job where you can do what you love is often perceived de there implicitly or explicitly as some sort of character fly or some sort of moral shortcomings when in actuality, that's just not the reality for the majority of workers to go back to us. Things. You said earlier that I wanted to look back to you in votes as therefore who's a friend and has been on the show many times. I love her and she says something that definitely resonates. with me, which is an you repeated at, which is that you too many of us for an hour all for the best parts of ourselves for work and everybody else gets the leftovers. But I'm just wondering. Is it really zero sum? Is there no way to be awesome all the time I don't think so, and I the research boxes up. It shows that people greater, but researchers, car self complexity, ten, to be, for example, more resilient in the face of adversity. Yeah make sense if you

I rising and falling solely based on your profession accomplishments and your boss is something disparaging. Are you a bad day at the office can very easily spill over and all the other facets of your life? others. The Joseph also shows that people with more varied hobbes and interests outside of work tend to be more creative, more innovative, better problem, solvers unfailing actually feed each other he needs at. This Some game here, prioritizing are your prioritizing lies Then, when we have a more diversified, portable of meaning? There said of the business is to be made about the way in which it fuels are backlash the same way that having jobs that are good enough. Allow us to be better parents and neighbours and siblings and citizens- and I think tat, natural inclination, especially right now in our world, is to either

lionize or villain eyes work. They say that works acts and we do it. our entire world ascended around it or to say that in our work the only way that you can make a difference in the world than if you haven't found a dream. Job keep searching I think what I'm trying to advocate for as a middle path, her away a tree, our job, it is a way to support our vision of a life well lived as opposed to the other way around. So what you concluded with was the idea that your thesis is nuanced and it's really up to us to make the decision, but we shouldn't be burdened by the notion, inculcated in all of us, as you often point out, through this cultural tick, we have of asking little kids. they want to be when they grow up, which I note to self. I guess I'm gonna try to stop doing

I just want to acknowledge that I get your point and I hope I'm regurgitating it with some semblance of accuracy and also just wanted to say that you know this idea of having More stuff going on outside of work can actually help your work. It appeals to me as a dyed in the wool optimized- and it's been made to me by previous guests like Alex suited kim who wrote a book called rest, and he talked about rest and work are two sides of the same wine and by rest he doesn't mean just napping, he means also active, rests. Hobbes could be for woodworking or hiking or exercise whatever, but that will make you better at your job. Given my conditioning and personality, that to be very compelling argument. Yeah. I totally agree. I think one of the things that we don't think about enough as the ways in which jobs don't just take our best hours, but often our best energy to them like the researcher you just mentioned. If we want

to derive meaning and other aspects of our life in my town, simplistic. But we have to do a thing. Other than work and doing things requires time and energy in a no offense their networks, but if we just work and come home and try to turn off our brains and turn on the tv. We're not gonna, necessarily cultivated more. Never suddenly, portfolio, you're, not gonna, find meaning friend things in your life. Like your relationship, say, you're hobbes your local community These things are sort of plants, they require time and In order to grow and when we are incomes to about investing in them in the same way that we might invest in careers, where are much more likely to be fulfilled, note to the listener. We are going to talk about what practical steps you can take to broaden your identity in this way, but let's just stay at a higher level for a few more minutes,

just out of curiosity, should we and have you stopped asking kids what they want to be when they grow up yeah? I mean I'm a phase in my life, where I'm not surrounded by too many youngsters right now, but I think they're sort of a daughter confront as the cocktail party line of so do, and I think in many ways so indicative overwork centric culture that we asked people to define themselves based on your job title. Since I have a little hot weather. Then using recently wishes instead of asking people? What do you do? Try and answer to that? Our words into that canonical piece of small talk and ask people? What do you like to do anything just that set our chef can help people to find themselves on their own terms of ireland. Define themselves based on how they spend their time, where if I'm meaning in their life and not just the sort of classes question ok, I'm gonna size you out, based on here you're industry, needs

I don't know. Maybe their tacit assumption is that I'm looking around to see if there is anyone else, it might be more work of my time to speak when I'm guilty of all that, and I do often find it's interesting and telling what people have chosen to do for work. Yeah and its airlines pint of ideas- and I don't understand- the wrong we're talking about our careers are, I don't think we need to know concerns, but I do think that very certain circles it can be, I should add that an undue burden on respondents to have two- a sexier cool mission, driven job for that exact reason just to be perceived, as worthy in the eyes of the people around them. So a tweak would be just What are you up to? What are you into these days? What are you interested it? Have you spend your time exactly- and I think I spoke with a lot of people for the book who had some sort of inciting incident

Life like lay off or like having a kid or like having a healthcare. There really put things in perspective for them, that made answering the question: what do you do guys, fair and nervous? and you re sandefur an existential loop. I think better of silver lining of some of these big. if a man swear, you are forced to prioritize something other than work. They allow you to define yourself, I'm your own terms, something in specifically about this. This one woman, less you I interviewed through the dark blue where's your temper of type a ambitious stryver. She he went to an ivy league college and she about swam and was on the water polo team, and then graduated ended, teach for america, another sort of career path identity and jobs are often conflated always through working life and she was working,

sixty seven, the hour weeks that she inflamed her nervous system. She became me no compromise with a chronic illness and she, and found me no swimming six hours a day to her mom spoon, feeding her chicken soup and her bad, and she had once he had arrived so much identity and self worth from our productivity and her productivity no longer in her control. And she told me something that has re stuck with me. What is that she learned a lot from lizard of chronically ill community the value of defining ourselves based on our evergreen characteristics, so rather than think of herself, as a teacher or ass a do. Unhappily as an overachiever. She started to define herself time being generous with her time or being a loyal friend. These trade, that no market or boss or company could take away from her and

I know it feels like the type of wisdom that can be allowed into all of us. You know not just people who are struggling with health scares in their life, but for ways Can we just conceive of our own identity, of where the traits tat inherent to us that aren't messages the contingent on achievement or some sort of external validation agenda at finding myself bring with it? Intellectually, but feeling like there's no way. I could do that that you just cuts against the grain of feed of fifty two years of breathing on planet earth, yeah. I heard me, I wonder a few hours at lake to take a step out of the news after having worked for twenty years, having defined yourself largely by are you dead? How did it

go to no longer be able to do that for a short period of time. I had two careers simultaneously and they were intertwined, you know, being a news anchor and then being what I jokingly referred to as a quasi self help guru meditation of angeles whatever so walking away from a b c first, all was it had some upsides, because I was sleeping more and less harried and busy, so that was nice, but yeah dad some identity stuff of like ram some, not an anchorman any more. I was actually having dinner the other night with somebody who used to be a pretty prominent anchorman and it's interesting to talk to him about it too. It it it's a strange feeling to lose that part of my identity. But for me I had all other peace? So it wasn't that big of a leap. I think a lot of people that I interviewed for the back had something like having a kid as being a bigger than that help them

reach, a their identity beyond something that was sorely tried to their professional achievement or just some sort it over them. We can try on different identities for size, because I loved her to play pick up past by I, whenever the benefits is playing basque, each is that coming day that can frankly careless about what I do for work. You know they don't care about how many words in that way, a hundred bucks, I've sawed they care about whether I am a good passer. I box out when I rebound or show up on time can be re, refreshing tat and these other containers of our life, where people have different value systems. I think certainly the offer so the workplace can provide one great one you success is often easily quantify I bought or measured it just one sort of priority system about what matters there's a lot of benefits both to our health.

inter community when rainbows also find other means to spend time it. and other identities that weaken exhibit and those different spaces, yeah here too things in there that I bet resonate with me. Despite my conditioning. One is yes for sure. Getting involved in different types of communities see I've done. To your work or my friend group, or playing in a ban with people, and these are all just examples from my own life, but there obviously people listening will have their own. Daddy is good. It does kind of de centre work in ways that feel good. Whether I was her am aware of it or not directly and the second thing is we talk about parenting, not everybody listen to this apparent, but it was something about this anecdote relating about the woman saying this really powerful thing, but just didn't resonate. me personally about how her new identity. Somebody was generous with her time or a good friend. Maybe I am I'm. Neither of those things

That's why I didn't land but being a dad that definitely that definitely lance for me. think like one of their things in writing. A book like this is the time be prescriptive with one size fits all solutions Obviously I can tell you from my dusk, here in san francisco, what other identities are employed, hear what of your non works alpha worth investing in. I think that the choice that we all have to make an ode to think about what are the other values that we have and where are ways in which we are today. hitting our time and energy in our attention to those values, and I think you know become

and I'd say it's a great, forcing function to have to introspect and ask some of those questions. Yes, I get your point is not to be prescriptive, but to say we should do the thinking, because it will make us happier right now, probably and if things go haywire at work which can happen to anybody, it'll be nice to have done that. So let me ask you the long delay The question that I keep meaning to get to, which is- why is this so important to you- watch, what's happened in your life that you've come, but you have to have a lot of ash around a subject to write a book about it. What happened with you yeah. You know about the increasing that you read the book that you need to read and in many ways my entire life has been trying to answer this question of what role work should have in my life, Indeed, I think it's worth underlining that even the question. What do you?

want to do, has a certain level of privilege associated with it. You know it's a question that people with options can afford to entertain, and thankfully I grew up with some options in coming out of college. I was looking payment, early for a job that could be the greatest reflection of myself for my personality and my interests since I played goldilocks with careers? Aid worked in tat very few, I worked in advertising and I worked in journalism and as it is, using the porter and that's when really came to a head. There is, this moment in my career aware, I was about twenty. Twenty nine is running. Fair I was in new york and I recruiter reached out to me about a job a design agency based in San francisco, my hometown and you're going

and if I go the agony of deciding between two attractive job offers sinner. Woe is me. maybe maybe some of our friends- have been at a similar sort of career crossroads here, didn't feel like? I was seeing between two jobs as much as it felt like. I was choosing between two versions of me, and really send me fair and essential look. He knows I was pretty insufferable at the time he now going through my own access existential crisis, but who I was and ask him out of questions about now. How did my And my identity become so entwined and I knew I was the only one tat I was sort of vacant- first colonel that led to this multi year, research project of questioning. Now, how did we- come to be so central to american and particular americans, identities and sources of meaning feel ass names bay

there are miller. He might think that concealing who you are and what you do is nothing new, but I do think it for the past, forty or fifty years have been a few trends that have really exacerbated this. This movement towards works interested me. there are political factors, for example, in the way in which we tie care to employment in this country where we tie. If you're an going your ability to stay in this country to your employment status there, economic factors, fair people the lower end of income spectrum withstand stagnant wages, People have had to work more disturbed by the same loaf of bread, whereas. On the other, side of the spectrum have been able to consolidate more wealth with the more hours they work. you're the one that I really focus on his this kind of cultural factor, this this subjective value that we place on work, in this country and how they declined

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in your days in your weeks where working is not an option, I think particularly for knowledge workers. Why are we have? offices in our pockets were always one swipe away from being back on the clock. Workers become extremely leaky in our all sort of like shock, sleeping with one eye on and on emails on our work tasks today to the topic arrested and think that serves I work life say well when, where women are always on and not carving out space tat to be checked in addition, serve our ability may be present in the other sources of our life. Well, I there, you know, one of the benefits of say going in iran are going to a younger class, is that you can multitask law you're doing No, you there to be present in there. I sort of structural protection, against working. Why you're doing some of these activities and the second step is

using how to fill your time I was speaking about, here, our identities and this is a meaning in our lives, grow in proportion with how much it Jim began to them. So you know you. Can say that you care about being a good friend by your identity as a friend will grow in proportion with how much time. Actually spending investing in relationships same with the causes that you care about, or your local community. The ability to learn a few sounds, and a guitar or alone a foreign language, now these things that make us into well rounded People are deserving of our time and our attention and interest to our glass. Having there the matter connection Sometimes I must begin to this, the psychologist for them and she said you nice realities, Abe, ambitious professionalism,

advised them to invest in their non workshops. May say: ok, I'm going sign up for an iron man, I'm going to read fifty two bucks this year I think that it has to be described gesture and actually think it's better to start small tat I've got a hobby, not tat master orator demonetized it, but because it helps you connect with the inherent joy, of doing so? I think one of the best antidote stare to workers or works interestedly is play, the different activities in their lives, we do just for the sake of doing them, whether it's dead saying journeying by air or crafting still happening at the present moment. There is a third of mindfulness to it and were able to intervention. temporary, not because it's a means to another and that as an end in and of itself, so there I hear too interlocking pieces of advice. One is.

to create as much space as you can in your life, where you cannot work because you're in a yoga class, you know in a soulcycle class running at another million activities where you can't be multitasking. Do, though, and the other is- and this is related, it seems- and please correct me if I'm wrong- to engage in activities where there's nothing to be gained from them and you can expand your identity because you are playing a different role that time you are a volunteer. You are a friend, you are a dad. You are the drummer in a band, so my something that up correctly, yeah, I'm here and push back in a letter that against the idea that there is nothing to be gained from them. Maybe just not not anything, monitoring that guy

just to remind you that we exist on this earth to do other things beyond produce economic value? Yes! Well, that's! Actually, I feel like that kind of a relief, because I exercise- and I meditate certainly for the former and more than I would like to admit for the latter. There is the expectation of some sort of outcome you know like with exercise of gradually released the goal like looking a certain way or working on releasing that, but I definitely have the goal of improved my cardio vascular, fitness and being healthy for as long as possible for my young sign in my wife, and also jude being less depressed or anxious, because I've discharge them energy, similar goals with meditation, so they're, not economic goals, but it seems like it would comply with your idea that there is something to be gained. It's just not monetary. One hundred percent- I think you know what they do- is they help connect us with what intrinsically motivates us.

We find inherent pleasure, urge fulfilment and in doing as opposed to the journalist David, to combat the rising neighbour virtues. You know this external What markers of a valid fishing until one more quick anecdote, because I think it's illustrative of a basic that point, which is when I was twenty seven I reckon intact in deciding whether to go back to graduate school depressed a degree in journalism and- journalism. As you know, on law, claw medicine is not the issue, Were you necessarily need a graduate degree in order to do the work and sir. I notice go back and forth and islam programme most in my head I went for a walk with a mentor mine

and after hearing me sort of blab on about whether or not I should go, he asked me this question that sort of cut through all the noise, and he said if you could go back to school. But you couldn't tell anyone that you did it. Would you still do it? Can I love that question straight to the heart of an eye ravages denial actually want to invest in my craftsmen and learning girls. Don't want her to be a graduate student. I want to just be someone who had a graduate degree, but I think you can survive the trap. That all these different numbers in my life, do you want to detained or do you want to be someone that had meditated are thinking about different ways in which we can find active these that we want to do for a b at joy or pleasure in doing them as opposed, you then perception in order, then I'm like that you might get when you press the hague conference

later. What did you end up doing I'm going to school, and I'm glad that I did but If not for that question, I might have never in the time there. Consider my own value, Isn't there a motivation for doing so? I might have just done it as a balm for a restless leg or as as something to do as opposed to really connecting with okay. Do I want to do this because I value this in and of itself a related and I think, even more provocative question and one that you include in your book have read a little passage from your book. The activist Dana White recently posed a simple question on twitter. if capitalism wasn't a thing and you had all your needs met, what would you do with your life? that reminds me of a similar question that is often posed by the pod. Her joscelyn cake lie who, as a pike, s called hurry slowly and it's all about

kinds of issues and she's been on the show, which is who were you without the doing, and I find that they had challenging question let's say you yeah. I think what I love about that product, on twitter. Is that if you read through the responses, everything around forget it people, I wanna be amateur astronauts and people that want to, you know the irregular attendees at their core. In a garden begging. What's that often lose out in a work is not absent of people at risk soon I think there is an inherent drive tat. I want to contribute to some larger than yourself to wine to invest. Here too, I am in your energy. In croatia producing something, but it shows that without some of those pressures always be doing it can help us can act with the wire the doing beyond just away to her to make her back

and so you know, I think, for me- I feel incredibly lucky to have found a line of work and writing about there's something that you will probably do. I won't to do in Israel, you know to have aligned may way of making money with my personal interests that they think they're. The beauty of that question, as I had shows and what we found during the pandemic with which is that, just with a modicum of social support with their alas frayed social safety net people were able to make decisions to leave jobs that weren't gonna enough for them find more alignment in the work that they were doing. Misunderstanding and the large scale and setting out a sort of my take away. Is bad

when we are able to decouple basic human needs from our survival. We are able to think more expansively about the possibilities ahead of us in the end of that passage, just to give that passage. It's due after the Dana white question you wrote. Perhaps my favorite response was I'd, keep doing exactly what I'm doing with less worry frustration and trauma about money. It's then you go on to say it's notable that people's visions didn't exclude labor, and you touched on that in your response, but removing it as a prerequisite for survival expanded how they conceived of what's possible. Yes, so I think that's probably true, for me, I'd probably keep do what I do, but I probably do less of it and maybe at in a bunch of other things. What about when you knew this came up earlier that this idea of behaving? ashen or being passionate about work and how some people You will find that to be kind of threatening because it maybe they don't have a passion or maybe they can afford to pursue it

and we may recall a commencement speech. I was asked to go to my alma mater called college back in two thousand thousand five way before as ready to give a commencement speech Do you know anything about giving people advice, and I gave what I think in hindsight might be pretty shitty advice, which was follow your passion. You know that this is what I've done. It wasn't am superman about journalism. And now I have this amazing job and I travel all over the world, but right in in like completely rethinking that and what would be the better advice yeah, I think, in a two thousand and five, an interesting yeah. That's the same year that steve jobs gave that famous commencement address at Stanford where he said. The only way to do great work is to love. You do that. You haven't found what you love. You know don't set arctic searching. and in those very much sooner in the water, especially in their early arts. I sort of life coming out and entrepreneurship was very sexy in there was a lot of excitement. Understandably,

how about the ability to change the world through our work? I think, following your passion, works well for people who can whether the inherent risk in doing so But I say the research from the university of michigan professor in an check and she writes about the sort of double edged sword. I following a passion and how for people with europe, Tunisia is the advice to follow. Your passion, can actually exacerbating inequality, people who don't have the same springboard and safety nets at the two terms that she called when we tell everyone to follow them No, we don't make those passionate jobs. Just about everyone can leave people down damaging path. Setting this is turn and our industry in journalism where, for example, a lot of their entry level entered

captain rolls down there. A living wage and so that people who can afford tat, maybe get the rat subsidized live. I found a family member for awhile can benefit from following their passion, whereas some people be hung out to dry, there's another turn that the important to think about in this discussion, which is a vote, national. Ah, I recently read an airbag about this term for the times about how there are certain industries, particularly creative mission, driven prestigious industries that have this procedure righteousness to them journalism. Second example ever seen this in the high would strike in an alley. and among the right answer, nonprofit sector healthcare, Education, where the industry who has a sort of killer fact. because it is this, the

having about her work and the waiter affects your passion, but they can also cover up one of the exploitation or injustice that exists within these fields? My partner country, scotty journeying. She saw this very clearly during the pandemic were out of one sided. People's now say would say you know you are doing god's work. Thank you for doing that you do besides saying you just make do with what you have, that could unquote essential workers who were told how important their work is, but also not given Fishermen are replaced protections that were commensurate with the severity of the work that they were doing. in the famous lying others line people out the door that but happily take your job there's nothing wrong with passion or love for your work, as so as long as

Passion and lived on, became stand ends for fair pay, a workplace productions of job security I think another argument. I've heard against the advice that I gave to those poor graduates from Colby in two thousand and five, and I may not be recapitulated in this accurately, and perhaps you can steer me here, but I've heard this counter argument made by people at cal newport, who also has been on the show and writes a lot about the culture of work and it's relationship if the technology is that for many people they may not have just sort of innate passions so telling them to follow their passion is not actionable advice, so instead the the argument that people are cow makes and again I hope, I'm saying this correctly- is that the passion I come from the doing of the work pick something reasonably interesting and the effort will create the energy tax, he says you know, passion is often

resulted expertise and hard work, not the precursor to doing so, and I think Now I m in set aside in the same respect on the topic, is so good. They cannot ignore you, which is there a reference to a famous saved my life. I think that's great advice for young people is to build skills, to take him back in their yourself and invest in building some expertise and investing in your craft, and hopefully the passion of Allah coming up. Some only talked about how did you find you're good enough job. Why work cannot be your family and his taken some hot buttoned workplace issues such as remote work, unlimited vacation and other so called perks. Have you

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ten jobs linked in jobs, helps find the right people for your team faster and for free post. Your job for free at linked end up Slash acquire that's linkedin dotcom, slash acquire to post your job for free terms. Conditions apply. How can we start to think about what our definition is for good enough? What our definition is for success? My third question, because I think everyone has their own definition. I think there Circumstantial factors, for example, if you want to live in new york city,

You are going to have to earn a certain wage. You can't say that you're good enough job pays ten dollars an hour and that you want to live on the thirty ninth floor of a manhattan apartment building. So I think there's like some doctors that take into account the sort of ideal life that you want to lead. I think there are things that are based on trust here- you're material needs. No delusions here, we live in the material world in order to pay for your material existence, sir things tat. Your job must provide an then there, the things that are based on your values values can appear squishy word. Then

me there are many different ways to uncover why you uniquely care about their, are concerts and journaling, but I think my favours a narrative, a narrative thinking about what is a time. A time work life. Where are you felt like? You really ought to show up and the way that she wanted? Maybe it's not that chinese speculators moment had not necessarily when you got the promotion of new landed the jar by what is so. There are very specific time are. You were able to be that have a personal you wanted to be in a work environment and then break down near

about what are their component parts that led to it. Were you collaborating with others, always the type of environment? U r n was a protected fan. Distractions were you doing. Creative were grew, doing more operational work over the factors in your life outside of their. I don't really get to draw down into what matters to you, because I think right now, their inclination is just to use where the market values as a proxy fair went to care about the job that pays. The master has the most prestigious job title then I'll tell you for many of the people that were quote unquote, successful that I interviewed for the book. Many then spent their lives climbing up career ladders that they later found out that they didn't actually want to be on or are playing a game that they didn't actually hope to win. So I think that's the balance you know the hall, where the world values in one hand and when

new value on the other hand, and try and find work at their intersection, because I think those risks at either end of the spectrum. So we we want to pick up a representative moment or two from our work lives where we really felt like this is awesome and see if we can have a work life going forward. That includes as much of that as possible. while also thinking about the realities of the market. Now you know, I think it goes back to that idea of respect that some people do it. They love from an economic viewpoint, do what they have to do for work, and to what they love when they're, not working. So I advise you gonna start with their vision. Obey life well left nothing about what does success. Luckily, where are you living? What are you doing?

and and and think about how your job might be able to to support that vision? I think there's a lot of kind of prescriptive. One size fits all advice, especially in the in the career realm. There's distinctions between different types of workers, different types Priority is different types of treating work, as, moreover, means to an end and of itself and to get clear. Why you're here? these are at this moment. I know it Work has a natural season to know. Maybe they'll be seasons where more prioritizing your career and other citizens. Were you doing more paradise in your life outside of work, and hopefully they can both balance each other out, one of the things that people look for a job is coworkers day like, and you make up a case in the book that in a work cannot be your family. Can you,

I say more about that: yeah yeah, it's one of those axioms that we throw around allied- and you know we're like family here and and I don't blame employers for wanting to promote that type of ethos. You know people who feel connected to their coworkers tend to stay at jobs longer. They tend to be more engaged in their actual work, but I think it's really important to make a distinction between what a family is and what a workplace is yeah. First and foremost, I know that to you, but most of the families I know are pretty dysfunctional. I don't know if you'd want to aspire to create work it is in their image, then I think there are some fundamental differences and especially I recently found this out where the loyalty to accompany his bottom line, while it must always trump the loyalty to it's people to expectation and family, is that the love is as unconditional, where in a workplace setting

employment by definition, is conditional. There's this research that I cite in the book then we're in this. This researcher named NC, roth, fired and and Julia palomar, and they have this paper. That's called Friends without benefit switch settings. There is a great title and sooner showing them the dark sides of very collegial we like workplaces and what they found is that in workplaces, where these really take merely all binds information. intends to travel through social ties, as opposed to be transparently available for everyone to see it found. Decisions tend to be made based on trust of employees, as opposed to rigorous business analysis, then I think it's worth pointing out that, even if the workplace maxine

like family to SAM. There are probably others too, don't feel the same way, and so in the book advocate for were transactional approach to work which my son crass, especially because it the jobs and to be colleagues and passions and locations- but I think, Adam employers already treat were transactional. You know they hire employees who add value and fire employees who do not- and I think the more how did we can be about that? The better than so and and play thinking about. What is your end of the bargain? You know what is back and on a contract that you're entering two and a though you may find corresponds in relationships with your coworkers, ensuring that that's not your only source of community life In terms of what has become a massive problem for many people, overwork and burnout,

what do you recommend that we have already discussed? I think when it comes to burn out a lot of times, we put the onus on the individual, we say things like practise self this weekend, sat a boundary By introducing the owners are too far on employers and the managers and ambassadors who are equipped with the tools to actually enact the sort of structural protections, He people from going off the rails colleague, again Helen Petersen has escaped distinction between the difference between a boundary and guardrail than tat. You think the road the boundaries of the lines great one, lean fan and other, whereas there, the guy browser the metal barriers, the things that prevent you friend, training off a cliff.

Nothing companies? I really best position to enact some of those structural production. And so inspired by companies that have say norms about when they are on and off line. I've really clear culture. Is that prioritize people being but I take time off and protect their physical and mental health outside of the office. I think in a burn out is a reason a lot of passion, and I think it's a result of of caring and trying to do great work, not of disengagement, as it often gets positioned- and I think particularly for Workers who care about what they do or are passionate about the work that they are doing. It's important to to take breaks and to re, sat before it's too late to start take time to revalue your gas tank before you're running on empty. Naturally,

there's a good business case to be made for this is why you never seen seeing for they were weak, then said, are going on around the world. I think out of our standards around working our whole every summer, more industrial age where there was a more direct relationship between them, but ours he put in and the quality of work, and you got out that particularly, in the knowledge economy. When dad The ball is something like a strategy document for an organisation a headline for a marketing campaign a bit idea for an article or a book. There isn't always a direct relationship between the number of hours. again in the quality of work that we get out. I brains need space for ideas to bounce around to synthesize the different impacts that were getting an answer. I think the enlightened organizations who are.

Getting more long term are seeing how rest and time off a clock interval part of being sustainably productive in the long haul, when our remaining time I want to do a bit of a lightning round to get your taken hot button. Workplace issues already hit on one of them the four day work week. What's your view on remote work, I think it's a positive trend. I think underlying idea from work in my mind, well allow companies to the best employees, no matter where they live, imbue flee a sense of autonomy in trust, in and plays ability to get work done as opposed using some of these proxies like animal our- u spanned in an office chair as a proxy for the quality of work that your producing inciting in the future. We are going to see a lot of different arrangements, have how organizations are organised

some will be remembered. Some of them will be high, read some of them. Well, necessary were still require employers to come into the office that I feel like the debate between returned office and hybrid work as a bit. of a red herring, I think we're already in the age of remote and hybrid work, and there is the matter of how companies are going to be adaptable to moving forward What about the argument that we sometimes hear from people like me, back Malcolm Gladwell, made it on the show that your sing out on the opportunity fur in person collaboration, and especially for younger person, you're missing out the opportunity for mentorship I'm definitely amenable to die in. I worked for four years that this organisation idea that really pilot itself, fine in person, collaboration and that sort of water cooler magic of being able to rub shoulders with people, but I think there are different models

doing so even in a remote and hybrid first world. So, for example, went in and encourage spies companies that bringing their employees fire very intentional reasons. So, rather than coming to the end. allison sitting on zoom meetings all day, maybe Designing a quarterly retreat where people are coming together to build those in person relationships to build culture, to connect was covered ursa. You might have only seen in letter boxes on your computer screen, so I think there, there's a lot of fun occasion about, but the future might hold anything. Malcolm's pointers is well taken that we need to create systems for mental tat, we need to find ways for employees to connect with each other and now each other beyond. Just in this transactional nature, as you meeting when you sign on and sent off, but I dont think that a person is the only path to doing so. I think it's just a matter of company

he's being intentional about the ways in which they design these programmes to work well. For everyone, just to say, my balloon, podcast team is on the eve of our in person summit, which begins tomorrow morning. Well, it won't be the tomorrow morning for people listening to this, but its tomorrow morning, me. You, ok speaking of zoom, what do you think about zoom happy hours and guess fan of assume happy every saturday bring together two trends, which is the height of gathering peer, packers work and this digital tool. If occasion so much of work, and I think, unless the gathering has a purpose, first and some intention behind it. It's gonna waste a lot of different peoples times, I think there are different ways: either synchronously or and earnestly to build culture beyond having people assertive cost playing. What it's like to be in person,

their cocktails and their living room. What about unlimited vacation policies? yeah. I think this is one that definitely cuts both ways and there's been a lot of research that shows that many companies with unlimited pizza actually leads to employees taking less time off then the other way around I propose an alternative which is minimum vacation policies there. companies out data require their employees who take time off I think about the type of structure protection working. Well, you know an employee. A re, encouraging employees there to get out and invest in something other than the rockets. What about policies that make salary transparent within the company so everybody knows what everybody else is making having thus have a positive direction and transparency in general. I think this is often a good thing and in the workplace

especially when it comes to mitigating some of their racial and gender bias that we see with workers who are doing similar types of work, but getting paid vastly different salaries we'll see. I may think, since some of these laws have been passed, in new york and elsewhere and job descriptions are transparent. companies are short of finding their way around and saying. Ok, arrange for this role is seventy seven hundred thousand dollars- and I think we ve got it. knowing the pendulum on one way, and that will continue to be refined moving forward, but in generating paid. Transparency is a good thing best and worst office perks, This is where we are back on the being by chairs and the pink bountiful I'm having the best offers the best off his pack is. This is going to sound like a self help. Quasi self help grew, I guess biting the best office breakers is true. is the ability to instil a level of autonomy in their employees to get their work done. Well,

and how they see fit, and I think that they can those who are doing their swell of cutting systems where they have standards of excellence. They have expectations ran when working, return, then, but they really trust their employees to get that work done. in the way they see fit, I'm gonna succeed and have a competitive advantage moving forward. I think they're, the worst office perk here think there a lot of the ones. In my back yard. In silicon valley, like that you're on campus dinners, sir Ability to go to the gym were dear. Your dry, cleaner at work that are sort of purportedly perks, but the companies are really the true beneficiaries. I think, particularly with the people who may not have many things going on in their life outside of work. They can be dangerous. You know they can learn play stir senator whole lives around the office and keep them at the office laid by me,

I certainly have to be in that can come at the expense of our ability to asked in our community is to find community friends outside of work and to I more well rounded lads bringing your full self. work yay or then? This is often the hottest of the hot button issues? Don't think it should be a mandate that I think people small sounds should be accepted if day, if the individual chooses to prevent them, I've been to too many seem happy. I always with very personal icebreaker question that I crossing a line between my people should be. I to share in a professional setting and others time, betting, bringing your full self quote, unquote to work, works best for people who feel like they're, already part of the group of the majority and maybe People want to have a different persona and replace it they do outside the workplace.

There should be nothing wrong with that having aside hustle, I've only got anything inherently wrong with having aside hustler one thing that I have noticed. My research has left He will think about it as a hedge against economic prosperity are able to make some money, on the side, but when I'm am wary of? Is their inclination I turn all of your passions or interests in your hobbies into side. Hustles are different ways to make money. You know a few scroll through the dick talks in their instead embryos these days, it feels like everything wine is about some waiter, no money, ties and try, sir try to make passive income, and I think that can be dangerous, especially for young people. who are trying to build their careers if you are always thinking about your side hustlers in year, monetization schemes that can make it very hard to be off the clock just a few more weeks

but in dry, cleaning and jim at work. What about meditation at work? Mrs, maybe more in around the expertise that man, I think simulator in herself. I think it's nice when it's an option, and I think it's paternalistic when it's a mandate, so I think that offices that have meditation rooms are younger studios their support and play to want to do some mindfulness before work can be agreed. Option as long as it's not shut down and plays threats, nothing can certainly help. Ok have regular medication, papua attribute a lotta, maybe tat, if a person to be compassionate in the workplace to that personal practice. But it works for me and I don't think that in its turn necessarily be something that we are.

Bringing into mad spirituality into the workplace in a way that makes people do things and they don't feel comfortable doing themselves. Final questioning you ve, touched on this a little bit. But what would your advice beat of people like me who are in a leadership listening, I'm a boss, but I help set the culture for at least one team, and by the way I've been the recipient of a couple of three sixty reviews and see where I go wrong. What will you know what are some of the best practices? fur bosses yeah we're fine there, too meditation teachers that you worked with between the first and second, three sixty reviews inside baseball reference. There still talk, but I think the biggest Proboscis managers is to model that type of culture that you hope to create. Nothing. Companies can have them progressive line policies in the world, but if the bosses- sending email that

here and going a guy on vacation whenever fully signing off line, of course had symmetrical down to the rest of the eu organization so I think, whereby as a manager, in addition to being intentional trying to an accident, they structure, protections that protect employees, lives outside of the island make sure that you are passing where you preach and try to live and according to the type of organization that you want to be part of a lead Oh man, that's a challenging one, because for me that very specific thing, because I keep odd work hours and I like to integrate lots of relaxation into my day, and so sometimes I very often get a bunch of work done on saturday. That's because I don't work a full, often don't What many would consider a full work day on monday to friday? Sometimes I do, but not always, and so I've tried to be clear, with a team

if I'm sending you an email or a slack, a just cause, I'm getting all the shit done in answering all the questions came in during the week that I didn't get a chance to deal with, and I think I have communicated the head well, but maybe not so what say you in the face of all this embarrassing stuff, I'm admitting mad and they get embarrassing, I think it's very I wonder if he might be able to use some of these and later tours that slacken in gmail for example, have so that even if you're doing their work saturday can scheduled to be sent on Monday. I monday it having those former editor in chief of wired megan greenwell, who I have a whole chapter of the book dedicated to, and she told me about in the early days of being sort of at the top of them sad how she wanted to be always available and so are little green dot. Next, to her name on slack was almost always available for people to reach out to, and she thought this was like a method of being

ass a boy to employees, and she made it very clear, like you do that even if I'm always available or if I'm answering things on the weekends, it doesn't mean that you have to, but I think taking the perspective of the a junior and play on your team or someone who is just starting out mistake and he now that message from the big guy son saturday at four p m, even if their message explicitly is you know you don't have to respond to this later? I think it's higher ticket that, from the reality of wealth, my boss is working and I probably should be to send, I think about ways to balance it s, not so black and white, Maybe there are ways that you can get work done on your schedule, but you can send it in a way that may work best for your team schedules and spa that the point is very well taken, and I completely agree that if I was a junior employee- and I got it not from a boss on a saturday. I would want to react to it. Yes, I and it'll look into that technology

Anything that I should have asked but didn't mean mesh journalism must question question now I think you know you recover yeah the bases pretty well. I appreciate some of your skepticism because I think I had a lot of it myself. You know, I think I came into the book writing process with a little bit more of a hot. Take, saying you know: work is bad or whole world centres around it. We ve gotta work glass may think on the other side of fears and reporting. its tempered into something a little bit more mild, which is to say that we work more than we do just about anything else. How we spend those hours matter. So the question is: how do you balance the pursued, a meaningful work without running work, take over your life they ve got the questioner. I can answer for you. Were there won't be affixed answer. I think something will continue to wrestle with her

entirely of our careers in their lives, but I think a good step line is asking yourself in china the intentional about your answer. Yeah. I appreciate the complexity of your argument, the nuance of your argument and I'm not skeptical like it's. I like in any way, I think it's bullshit. It's more that I'm sort of sceptical about whether I can do some of these things given the culturally and familial biases that have been ingrained into my todo yeah. Maybe one last piece of advice is to try and find a way to spend some time in a place that has a different hierarchy of value. You know one of the reasons being inspired me right- this book is that my family is italian and they have them different priorities there and so spending time and a place. That cares that different things is a good way to

major area and expectations in your eyes were yeah. I was thinking about that because one of the questions that I had written down to and then didn't ask, although I'm asking you now was. I have people close to me who actually in the process of rethinking the role of work in their life right now and then and I are still embedded

larger social structure and I'm not just talking about the larger culture. I mean just like our little social world, our little community, where pretty much everybody else has the old values. And you know it's hard. I think one is naturally deeply influenced by the people in your world. I mean one route is to just change the people in your world, but it's not always easy to do now and I can relate first hand of the difficulty in the tumult can come from trying to dislodge some of these very deeply held beliefs. You know, especially in the us, which is a country that treats productivity and and self worth as as so closely bound, not easy but worth doing or thinking about you've. Given us a lot to think about

c mon I thank you. Things are having here thanks again to some monet. Thanks to you for listening, ten percent happier is produced by justine davy Gabrielle sacrament lawrence with entire anderson, DJ cashmeres, our senior producer mercer schneider meant, is our senior editor and Jimmy regulars, our executive producer. We get our going in mixing from Peter bonaventure over at ultraviolet audio and our theme, music was written by nick thorburn for the band islands coming up on Wednesday part two of our series: it's a gem from the archives, one of the most popular episodes we've ever had on the show, with Matthew hepburn, a dharma teacher who has a lot of experience at the office, he's going to talk about how to integrate mindfulness into your day and lots of other stuff, a prime members you can

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