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And we should view it as the ability to rethink and unlearn my guest, whose name is Adam grants as there is evidence that in a fast moving world what he calls the critical art of rethinking can position you for excellence at work and wisdom life not for nothing in a world where many of us are stuck in our own in for me, silos the ability to rethink and open our minds to other people's opinions? Maybe one way we can dig ourselves out of our current social and culture and political divisions? Some of you may know Adam grant he's bound to show before is an organizational psychologist at ted speaker, a professor at wharton and the author of for new york times best selling books, including one has had a big influence on me called give and take, which is all about how generosity can contribute to professional six

ass. I am happy to report that Adam has done. It again is written a compelling and timely book. This new one just out is called think again and in this conversation we talk about how to actually go about the job of building the skill of rethinking how the people who speak the most confidently are often the least competent and what he calls the surprising upsides of impostor syndrome. Hero Adam grant. Adam hello. Thanks for coming, hey dad, it's such a treat to be back, although I have to tell you I have not started meditating, that's fine, have no plans to break your for that fact. When I plan to say off, the top of this is Adam grant has done it again. You ve read many books, but the book for me, that's been most impact will has given take and, as I dive into this new book. I realise that this is lending in a lot of important ways for me. So, just as an odd,

of one Adam grand, has done it again. So congratulations well. Thank you. I hope I don't make you re thinking. Finally, I just kind of recession that would be poetic, but I doubt it's gonna happen. So speaking of rethinking, can I just get you to state the basic thesis of this book. This book, for me, is about rethinking what intelligence means in a rapidly changing world. I think in a stable worlds, which most of us for a long time thought lived in, intelligence was basically the ability to think and learn. But now we live in a crazily turbulent world and, I think, increasingly being smart. Having good judgment even arriving at wisdom requires us to be equally good at rethinking and unloading and a lot of people

soon, that those two things are the same: that if I'm good at thinking and learning, I'm also going to be good at rethinking and unwary. But, as you know, sometimes the better. You are thinking that a worse you become rethinking because You can find so many compelling reasons to support your beliefs and essentially outsmart your own ability to question yourself and I think that's a very dangerous skill set, and so for me this. This book is about luck in many ways: twenty twenty was a year where we were all forced to rethink so many things we took for granted, whether its where we were or her, whether we can get access to food and toilet paper or what our staff, says on racism, and my hope is that it when he twenty one and beyond. We all get to be a little more proactive about. Rethinking before were forced and saying you know that there might be some assumptions or opinions that I've held for a long time,

that no longer fit in the world that I love it. I said this to you before we start rolling rolling. I think this is ever evergreen importance this argument and is particularly important right now. This is the word you use in the book. It's about mental flexibility, and I I struggle with it. and yet I have just found it to be incredibly important because there is like and I'm gonna get a little meditative with you, but will see. If you agree with me on this, I feel the more self I become, and I'm not super self aware, but I'm somewhat self, where the more grows. The more I can see a sort of subtle pain, that's associated with dogmatism. Does that land for you yeah that that such an interesting, wait a frame it because I think for most people. What stallion is the pain of changing your mind right and just how much it hurts to admit that you were wrong to recognise is that some of the major choices that you made in your life- maybe

some of the most important decisions you made were poorly thought out and if you could go I can do it over again. You might actually have different views or make different choices and that discomfort for so many people it creates a ton of cognitive dissonance right and if it's easier to be a consistent than it is to be flexible. But I think you're you're exactly right that in the long run it hurts a lot more to stick to convictions that turn out to be false, or at least ineffective. For us. There is a great psychologist, George Kelly, who had what I think is an endlessly interesting definition of hostility. He said that hostile he is the emotional ray Can you have when you find out that one of your beliefs is wrong and you always suspect was wrong, but you don't want to admit it. here: figure you're describing the the discount realizing wait a minute. My hostility is

Being from realising that I probably shouldn't think something that I think yes. I've just experienced this over and over again, I cannot be for anybody else's experience, but my own I've experienced both kinds of pain. Immediate, both things are true. At the same time, it is painful to acknowledge you. Ve been wrong, is also painful to walk around pretending, You believe something went somewhere in your psyche. You know that maybe it's not true I'll, say something. That's been helpful to me to reduce this a little bit, and this is actually comes back to your work in given take you dedicate a good chunk of the book to something called powerless communication. I believe which is talking in a way that signals to people that you're not dug in you're, not. Absolutely sure what you, what that, what you believe is you knows carved in stone.

a version of that that I have also been taught by some communications coaches, who I work with Dan clurman and moody turn Lisker shout out to Dana would deter. They have something they call provisional language, Dana, but dita are buddhists, so they're very much aware of the idea of impermanence, relentless nature of change, and so it only makes sense, given that non nego the law of the universe to speak in a provisional way, because that is aligned with what is true, which is that we really know what's gonna happen, and so I have found that it is kind of like a self compassionate to adopt as a communication style in ay said the area where I intend to get the most dogmatic and stuck in my ways it when I'm due working with small groups on creative collaboration like around this podcast or a book,

I am writing or a piece that I'm doing for a b c news or a course we're doing for the ten percent happier app- and I have a way of talking, like I'm an acre man. I've been in agreement, says twenty to everything that comes out of my mouth. It seems like, I really believe it I'm reading it off the teleprompter. I have a deep voice, so blah blah blah and the more I sort of pound the table on something the more rule everybody else in the room becomes them less psychologically safe. They feel to speak up, and the more miserable I become, because I know on some level I don't really know, I think part of its interesting about what said, is most of us have spent a lot of careers getting rewarded for expressing certainty for. exuding confidence for being authoritative and declarative, and I think that that style of communication is not helpful either forgetting other people to be open or fur he's been just questioning ourselves, because

What's the the hebrew origin of abracadabra, I learned recently I create, as I speak, and I think there is such a danger right in the more I get reinforce Telling people that I have the answers, the more likely. I am to actually believe it and I think that's how we get trapped in cycles of overconfidence. I think that's why we often have so much difficulty rethinking what we believe and I think there are different versions. This for different people, which you know which go a little bit into the mental models that I breakdown in the book, whether you tend to think more, like a preacher, a prosecutor, a politician or a scientists, and I've been noticing, even since writing Look how often I slip into the wrong mental mode, which is ironic because I thought I had figured something important his readiness nope, like almost everything inside, it is much easier to describe to other people and explain clearly than it is to practice every day. Well. But I think you just

landed on the answer there? It's a practice and you will get better over time. So, even if you ve literally written a book on this you're, not gonna, be good at it forever every day I think true, and it makes me wonder if, if Dan, if you'd written this book, would your goal have been to be a ten percent, wronger yeah, or maybe seventy five percent wronger. But I would just here too, that incrementally too. Where are the areas for you? Were you tend to end up in the wrong mental mode and then let's bring down the various modes or you can do whatever or do you want yeah atlas, let's start with the modes. Has, I think, there's there's one in particular. That gets me in trouble a lot. My colleague fill tat lack, read this brilliant paper almost twenty years ago about how to much of psychology assumed that we were rational economists just making efficient affair. did productive decisions and we feel set is no. That dramatically underestimates the social forces that influence our judgments and our choices every day,

and he said so much of our time is spent in the mode of being a preacher, a prosecutor, a politician. So when we're in preacher mode, we believe we ve already found the truth, and our job is to proselytize and and sell everyone else on that truth. Prosecutor mode is similar except It's not about me being right, it's about you being wrong and I've got to win the case and bunk all of your arguments and then, in politician mode What we're trying to do is we ve got an audience of constituents in where campaigning for their approval and what I found. Really fascinating about. This is that preaching in prosecuting stand in the way of rethinking very clear that if I really believe I'm right and you're wrong, that's not going to change my mind and your problem. Gonna dig your heels in and wherever conversation we have an politician mode. We get a little bit more flexible, but I think we we update our thinking for the wrong reasons at the wrong times, because only change when it's gonna, please our tribe or when it

going to win over our audience as opposed to actually prioritizing the truth over the tribe. Part of what I want to do. Is I want to get people to think a little bit more or scientifically right in saying look. My opinions are not always valid beliefs. They are just their hunches, they might be hypotheses. I could test them by running experiments in my life and I might find out that some my cherished beliefs are, are actually wrong or incomplete, and cool learning opportunities. They just discovered something. I should be able to take as much joy in full, out that my beliefs are wrong, as astronomers did when they discovered pluto was not a planet which really annoyed me, and then I was met. I know that I got annoyed by that scientific discovery and then about data as your question that the modem tricked me the most is going into prosecutor mode. It bothers me at my core when people pedal false information.

If the cartoon that has just struck a chord with me as long as I can remember it, the protagonist is sitting at a computer and it's clearly late at night and there's a voice that says honey. Why are you still up and the answer is someone is wrong on the internet, and, that's me I I have to have to correct that. That's part of I became a social scientists is ideal, our people to believe incorrect things, but when I get it into that mode of trying to convince people they're wrong. It just alienates them. Where do you slip up? Do you find yourself occasion preaching or prosecuting or politicking more than you intend. I would imagine that europe much lower risk for politicking, then because you really don't care. If anyone likes you, ouch no have no idea. I mean that as a compliment is one of the OECD admire about you that use

to be immune to flattery, ends, praise and sycophants that you are coming standing for what you believe, regardless of what anybody else thinks I wish. I was more like that we do not really know I'm so delighted? I am here today you because I've got all three of those, as your list mafias I got it got a guy yeah I mean I think, I'm getting better. Not falling into those modes, because I see how painful they are, but I dont like sick of sea because but it may, I think, there's a whole we're. thing of you know, somehow suspecting I'm irredeemably awful in that. You know, there's that's a whole actually writing a little bit about that very issue. But yes, all me the one they all seem like things I do the one that seems like the thing I do, the most that is so unattractive to me about me is the process. Peter thing, a pretty in particular in like intimate relationships,

like our you, with my wife, for arguing with a friend or family, amber where somehow the whole goal become just you know, proving yet prison wrong? And how like not helpful, is that, and it just feels awful if you'd like you know poison running through your veins, so true. Well, I I want to have two levels of conversation here. The the first one is to to talk about why that's ineffective and what the alternatives might be, but the the just to say this is a great moment for me to rethink something which, as we know each other for a few years- and I assume, because you know you ve- you describe your tendency to be disagreeable and hard on people, and I made a leap from that and assumed you must be a man in two social disapproval, which is clearly not the case. So I was wrong. I need to update this belief. I'm an acronym who gets ratings in the pike. S toes too can see their growth of the un and read the comments and so yeah I try not to get yanked around by it.

one of the most revealing moments for me in recent memory was a father's day, not this past one but pandemic, my son was, for, at the time, had come in them, office at abc news and my wife. Into a new office, my wife is helping me set it up, cause she's better function way than I am, and then they were home and alexander insisted on setting up his room at home to look like my office and then Bianca took it. The of him marching around the apartment. Saying I'm important an important there I've had. My first response was: that's really funny, and my second was I feel, seen and there, hurts like this. Kid sees right through me and yeah. Well you're. You know that you don't make the professional stations I've made if you don't care what other people think of you. If you don't

have that in you, and so I think, part of the work of growing older and better is too like not be somebody fitted by that jug, that's fascinating it. It's a moment, a solid air, for me because our our middle daughter I want to say last year, did a zoom performance for her classmates, where she put on a ball AP and came in and said about him grant and then gave a faux ted talk yeah. It was really good and it was funny because if you felt like Maybe that was a caricature of your political whims or your your tendency to maybe politic more than you'd, like when I saw there was her emulating me in temporary preacher mode, and I thought what interesting about this, is I almost never think like a preacher, but there are certain situations where I talk like one, especially

If, if I know I'm going to annoy my audience by being too much of a prosecutor, I end up sort of then taking the other side and say ok this alternative that I'm really excited about it. If I can get you excited about that, maybe you will let go of your wrong belief. Ends It's just not the person I wanna be, and it's all, I think, not as productive as it feels in the moment. How do you effectively communicate if you're, not in any of those, both at some point. We have to pick a thesis and make your case for it. Yeah. I think, there's a time and a place to be preaching and prosecuted and probably politicking too. I think, though, that but we're all grappling with into twenty one and frankly, probably have been for a while- is the fact that are hardest conversations. Whether their disagreements at work or at home are with people who holds

opinions that are different from ours and who are really invested in their point of view, and if that's the case right, have you ever skeptical or resistant audience. Who cares a lot about the issue we are discussing they don't wanna be preached out, they definitely don't wanna be prosecuted and the only real way to politic with them is to let them. That you belong to their tribe pregnant. You share their, but Otherwise you're, not one of us, and so I think the alternative approach that I've gotten reasonably excited about is actually approach. The conversation, moral besides, scientists would, which is to say you know Dan, I'm about to have a disagreement with you on something. I don't. Let's say we discover we we disagree. on climate change. What I would do is instead of trying to pick heart your beliefs and hammer you with evidence when I've learned to do from from all this research that psychologists have done over the past decade. is to just get really curious and fascinated by this unusual creature fancies there were

The same world that I live in so differently from me and just ask you a bunch of questions a better understand your worldview and in the process of doing that. I'll look for common ground and say look we we actually want to find areas of agreement as opposed to starting with the disagreements, so that we can both see each other as reason human beings and then I want to do. Is I want to make it clear that, even if we don't land on the same page, I actually respect you for caring about this issue. That, I think, is it, and there's a bunch of research showing that people actually become more nuanced. Unless polarize, when there's a just a basic affirmation of I I may not agree with your view, but I respect the fact that you have a view on this issue and from there would it had probably want to do, is I'd want to try to understand. Will what arguments you find more or less persuasive so that we can at least have the discussion on terms that you find a bee palatable as opposed to bring up a bit the issues that you already have pre arranged

arguments or defence mechanisms against have you been familiarised at all with the work of the group they used to be called, Their angels are now called braver angels. I've of them, I'm not familiar enough with. It said no, where you're going next, so tell me more: they bring it's an blues together and have these conversations that I've I've witness they seem to be. Quite successful in their approach was designed by a marriage, counselor and of the rules is never try to change somebody's mind and to try to fact, land on, what's called accurate disagreement and the route is through curiosity. I love this idea. This feels like a missing section: again. Where were you a year or two years ago? When I was writing this, you have let me down again, then Harrison's wit when it. What I think is intriguing about that approach is the idea of accurate disagreement. It tastes

lot of the the emotion and the heat out of an argument. Right, because the moment I hear disagreement, my impulse is an agreeable purse say run screaming in the other direction, it's gonna be conflict. I'm not going like it. I don't want anything to do with it, but accurate disagreement as to things number one. It refocuses me I'm a higher value, which is truth and number two. It makes me realize that the agreement is not always a bad thing, it's funny because

and in my world of organizational psychology, one of the biggest revelations about conflict has been that there is an important distinction between task in relationship conflict where relationship conflict is what we normally cringe right. It's personal emotional hate, your guts. The world would be better if you didn't exist, and that obviously turns out to be counterproductive for all the parties involved, typically, but there's another kind of conflict qatar conflict which is much more intellectual. It's about ideas not about emotions, doesn't necessarily come with the judgment. We wanted debate something because we both care about getting to the right answer, and I like the idea of accurate disagreement, because it's a way of inviting people are to have a healthy task conflict without letting it spill inter relationship conflict, which is what happened so often. Here, what are other ideas about how to decent big you wait

ass conflict and relations, your comfort, I think one of the most useful steps is actually just to frame. The conversation really clearly ends a mistake that their philosophers have pointed out. Pretty consistently is that people try to argue to win or to make the other person loose. Rather, your preaching or prosecuting, What we should be doing instead is arguing to learn, and so I may come in to a conversation with. If I want to have a good task, conflict is to say, hey dad did I know from past discussions. We might have a different point of view on this issue and I I would love to better understand where you're coming from and so could you walk me through how you arrived at disbelief, and you know why we stand where you do and that takes you out of a defensive mode. It also actually lets me. Learn something correct which might be useful for our future conversations or if I'm going to talk to other people who happen to share the view that you do and there is also evidence showing that framing a disagreement as the debate helps. But I know I'm guilty have taken this too far and I might say hidden,

Could we have a debate about meditation and three Where's later I've gone into intense prosecutor mode and not even notice that you're not enjoying the debate, and you haven't been for the as two hours and forty seven minutes. So I think that that has to be applied with a little bit of caution. Have you heard of a communication technique or skilled called reflective? Listening, a half? Yes I'll? Let you define it if you want to, and my question is, though, what would that help with what you're describing in terms of talking to people without falling into the mental modes that seemed to have pernicious impacts? I think what you're Dan is that reflective listening might be a helpful strategy for turkey across differences is that is that, after listening bath, reflective listening actually in some ways yet reflect listening as I've been taught by the aforementioned dan and would deter is when somebody

says something to you, you kind of repeat the bones back in as concise form as planned. the ball in your own language, which sends the message to them that you ve heard them and understood your interlocutor and for me as a circuit, breaker and my reflexive move to debate, but sometimes I'm debating with insufficient standing and some times. My desire, the debate is alienating, even if I properly understood it so reflective list, can deactivate the amygdala for both sides. It's a mess using how often people will talk about this is the same listening and how rarely they practice that right? It's I think it's one of the biggest knowing doing gaps that probably exists in our daily lives one of the things that I I revised my thinking on values writing think again is I used to think that refer

Listening was sort of that it was the key scale. Having an open minded, thoughtful conversation, and now I think it's a key skill. I think that in part, because I did a deep dive and this idea of motor shall interviewing that comes out of counselling psychology. Have you come across this before now? Originally these two psychologists, bill miller and several neck, were they were working with clients. Were trying to overcome addiction, and so it added Have someone come in? Who had a series of do you from I'll abuse or was trying to quit smoking and basically its interest, is that the whole fielded up until the early eighties seem to be oriented around some degree of preaching about the better she's available or prosecuting people for having made a horrible choices, and it is they noticed it didn't work. For other reasons we ve talked about, and so with a start doing instead was they said. Well, what? If we all reckon

is that you can rarely motivate someone else to change and you're much better off. Helping them find their own motivation to change and the only way you can do because you have no idea what other people's motivations are and the more, think you know about other people's motivations, the greater the risk that you're wrong. What if you actually adopt this stance of humility and curiosity, where you come in saying you know, I don't have a clue. What's gonna motivate dandy change and I am curious to find up, and so A typical motivational interviewing conversation would start with a series of questions about what is this possible path at your considering right, so you might be considering stopping drinking You don't tell me what your thoughts are around. You know why you might continue or why you might not right, and I dont I have an agenda here. My goal is to help you achieve whatever your goals are, and in order to do that, I've got to figure out what your goals are, and then what will happen is in a lot of these studies. You'll. Give too response is what is called sustained talk. Where do you come up with me,

and why you might say the course, the others change shock Where are you might have some idea? is about your desire to change or a plan had maybe two to scale back your drinking, and what I think is interesting, then, is you have choices about the reflective listening that you do. If you spend too much time in reflective. Listening around the sustained talk, you basically reinforced people's convictions and let them stick with the drinking problem or you know that smoking addiction, whereas if you can be solved about acknowledging the sustained talk, but also in a really summarizing what you ve heard around the change talk and asking follow up questions to say: will you know why haven't you followed through that plan so far, and what are your concerns about doing that? To really help people think it through then, in over a thousand controlled trials, people are more

likely to change when you tell your reflective listening in the direction that actually helped them embrace a change that they themselves care about? And we have to be really careful about this a lot of people here this and say: okay, so I'm just gonna ask leading questions eminent manipulate you into doing the thing that I want that doesn't work young immediately. The other person raise their antenna. You actually have to want to help them and that Understanding with their goals are interviewing them about what mode motivate them to make changes that would achieve their goals, not your goals that makes a ton of sense, May I will say, as I've been taught reflective listening by Jan and with due to their kind of two aspects of it. There's they're kind of basic reflected, listen where he just reflecting what people have just said to them, also electing their positive intention, which is in some ways like not just reflecting what they've said to signal that you've understood it, but also advocating for them. in some way reaching into what they have said.

I think that out and presenting it scientifically as okay. This is kind what I've heard at my right and then they'll correct you and then you can reflect a correction. Always love it. When people with very different training and experiences essentially landed the same ideas and this is exactly what in motivational interviewing is often called an affirmation, So when you think about the scales David motivational, interviewer uses, they're asking open, ended questions engaging in reflective lessening make sure that you get a mix of sustaining chain shocked because a lot of people are ended in the end. You want to surface that ambivalence and make them realize that they don't have. You know a black and white view of what their future there's gonna look like or what their beliefs are. Gonna look like, and then this affirmation The idea of saying you know it dad. I believe it. If you want do you have the will and the scale to change its waste to tell you how to do that or whether you should do that. But I am confident that if that something

decide to do. You can and will follow through on it. and we get back to something. You said a few paragraphs ago used humility in this strikes me as going right to the core of your book. The new book, and in fact, why meagre from my wife to read this book is my wife has struggled years, how thou withstanding? What seem to me to be like unimpeachable, inherent qualities of intelligence and compassion, and unimpeachable achievements in her life as a physician, she has struggled with imposture syndrome, and you in this book talk about the upside of the humility that can come with imposture syndrome. Can you talk that yeah. This is one of the more fine rethinking moments for me in writing. Think again, we had adopted soon at Morton. Betsy metamorphic has now professor at mit, and she said: look you know empire.

Sir syndrome is, if you think about it, is as a syndrome its debilitating, because you have this chronic and that your unworthy and that people and find out that you don't deserve all of your success or any of your accomplishments, and it's not hard to figure out how that would hold people back. from setting in pursuing ambitious goals were beseemeth noticed. There was The actual syndrome is pretty rare right people who are chronically just unwilling to believe anything positive about themselves, pretty tiny fraction of the pot of population what's much more common is having impostor lots and having these moments where we say well maybe don't belong on air right now, maybe I shouldn't be hosting a podcast Why why in the world? Would anyone read a book that I wrote? Who the hell am I to have anything to say to everyone else? I can't even get my own life in order and those impostor thoughts are I'm their common and she got curious about what in to have a more or less often, and so she steady medical students

who are working on their their andy's. She studied investment professionals and she quickly found that the more often you had impostor thoughts it didn't do any harm to your task performance. and had actually made you more compassionate to the people that you are dealing with, so doctors in training for it Well, were every bit as good at making diagnoses when they question themselves but they were more likely to reach out to a patient and say damn you have any other symptoms or are it concerns I haven't heard yet because they were. Sure they had already solved the problem or fix the issue that was initially brought up. and then in there in the investment case, it was actually some evidence that, if you're an investment professional- and you have regular impostor thoughts that you actually made smarter decisions, because you are more likely to questioners And you didn't lock in on your intuition, you actually their data to say you know it instead of trusting my gut. Maybe I should test god and find out if the patterns I recognized in the past are not

actually relevant to the current investment decision that I'm making, and so I think, there's a sense in which, having those fleeting thoughts of maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I don't belong here that that can become a source of humility. It can lead us a question. What we now recognise, what we don't and then have the curiosity to discover new information, and that, ultimately, is how we learn ass. If I had, choice between being a little bit overconfident or a little bit under confident. I want to live on the impostors side, because I'm constantly aware of how much is out there to discover- and that means Instead of thinking I'm an expert, I'm gonna be lifelong learning. The trick is you don't want the impostor thoughts to become concretize? Did syndrome. That's dogging you all that I'm making you unhappy, even if it does maybe boost your performance and this is why there is an important distinction between doubting yourself and doubting. Ideas or your beliefs, and so I think that the sweet spot for impostors

dream is to say: ok, you. I believe that I can you're this out. I believe that I have the the capabilities to solve the problem that I'm tackling, but I'm not sure my current vision or strategy or tools are exactly right and I think about that as confident humility and I've. Yeah, you see it a lot with entrepreneurs. Actually I remember asking sara Blakely a few years ago How in the world's did you decide you're gonna be able to start spanks when you didn't have a business again, you have not worked and fashion or retail. You didn't know think about patents, and she said I had no idea how to do any of those things, but I was called and in my ability to learn and figure it out, and I think that's the right kind of confidence we shouldn't be confident cod We in our knowledge we should be confident and our ability to learn what the dunning krueger effect the in Kruger effect is one of the most delightful ideas in psychology. When you're complaining about the ignorant person, you know, and one

distressing ideas and psychology when you're the one who's the victim, so the classic. Saying, is that the people who are the main confident in their knowledge and skills in any one area, are the most likely to be overconfident in that area. So, if you have a super bowl party- and you got a bunch of football- and gathered the one who's screaming the loudest about how the I called the wrong play, isn't wonders mostly, could it be overconfident about? Is football knowledge and part of that I think, is because A lot of people will say you noticed an ego problem, but it a knowledge and information problem that is David, dunning often puts it. If you lack the knowledge and skills to produce excellence, and also lack the knowledge and skills to judge excellence, and yeah dad. I had a ida funny experience in high school and I always

given the dunning krueger effect comes up, which is, I had a friend who accuse me of not having a sense of humour, and I was sad. because I love comedy and I love making people laugh and I love to laugh. And finally, I asked after she mentioned a few times wider, think I don't have a sense of humour and she said well you don't laugh at all my jokes now I'll leave it to you to judge who lack the sense of humour, which I think is as about discernment right, not just blanket laughter at anything but It is a fine example of something that we see all the time right, which is, I think it other people see this research and they say well, you know it's really dangerous to be a complete novice and that's not

but the data. If you literally know nothing about an area you dont tend to be overconfident, it's not the beginner right is the person who who has just felt like they became an intermediate who then experiences a rush of coffee, that exceeds their competence, and so that's when they start to believe they know things that they doubt, and I think the big question for me is what the antidote to this, and I want to ask you actually damn you have with. I can only imagine how many guess you ve interviewed over the course of your career, who are just confident ignoramus, is how do you correct for that There are not many people have been on this show who would fit that description because of the nature of the show. However, out in the world in my many many decades of travelling around the now that I'm old interviewing people, I have seen this a tonne

and there's not much. You can do as a journalist other than not put too much of the main your story, the war I have is that very often these people have a lot of power, and that, just you know, speaks to me to the relevance of this book. because increasingly, we all have the power of having supercomputers in our pockets and we think we know more than we without seeing through the fat. that we have curated, echo chambers they're, just reinforcing our prejudices. often and we're not challenging our core bullies die that all the time- and I just keep noticing as yes, I talk to people who are truly experts in their field tat. They never boast about how much knowledge they have. I hope that what they marvel at is how little they understand and

what's more, they want to learn, and so for me the first sign of someone being an expert. Is them saying I actually don't know or I don't understand and I think there's some brilliant research. That's helped us figure out how to lead people there gently on defensive way, which is the next time you run across someone who is just making claims to know things that they clearly doubt instead of arguing with them just ask them to explain what they now to an x. or to really unpack how it works and a cognitive psychologist first demonstrated this with cattle and electronic objects, so they ask you a question like a cadet lets them with a hobby of yours. I play the drums you play the drums. So how confident are you in your ability? You explain A drum produces the best sound that we all love. I have zero percent capacity to explain at you, while you ve clearly read that no, that's actually I mean

That's that's that's an encouraging sign of your intellectual humility and your willingness to think again. But, interestingly, if you were to ask a lot of drummers, a lot of them would say pretty cool. but at least I know more about that than a non drummer. Would I dont know more about it than a sound engineer? Would who doesn't know the drums at all? Definitely not, but if compared to the average person who doesn't play the drums sam if you play them, you know more than somebody who has no experience everything. I could see how one would arrive at that conclusion. Yes, yeah, so that on average is what a lot of people will do, and you can see this not just with the drums. But you know if you ask people as a piano make music or how are we in connecting over over some kind of way the signal right now. How is the sound being transmitted to your ears? Peoples are beyond reasonable. General about that. And then you just go the extra step and you say well, could

walk me through the mechanisms when you hit the drumstick on the surface. What's going on inside the drum there, when you press the piano key like where's, that music coming from and why do the different keys make different sounds? and people when they try to view this. They just satellite complete morons, which you clearly we're not willing to do, which I applaud, but even before they say it out loud ass, they start to think it through they re eyes how many gaps there are in their knowledge and the there's a term, in psychology, it's called the illusion of explanatory depth that Poor people really walk through an explanation of something it's easy for them to assume they know more than they do when they have to connect the dots they can see all the horse, and at that point they become more humble, they become more curious, they become more nuanced in their thinking. They become more open to learning and, I think was powerful about this is this is not just true with complex technologies right, it's also true with political policies, so. There's research showing that if you ask people why they believe what they believe value,

a bunch of reasons to reinforce their pre existing conventions. If you ask them instead. Well, how would you implement that policy? How would that work in practice? What are all the effects it might have? They start to see the same gaps and actually start a moderate. What might before have been extreme beliefs, so I think how questions are met simply underrated. Much more. My conversation with Adam grant right after this you I've heard about master class for years, but I've never actually check out, which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. The good news is the folks over at master class. are now sponsoring this show, and they gave me a subscription and as I look at this as I realise that this is a great place to feel a lot less stupid. The lineup on this is incredible. The people there fruit to teach it just kind of blows. My mind they ve got Aaron sorkin on screen gordon ramsay, I'm cooking. Also, Thomas Keller, they ve got anna lindh on creativity

jon kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation, which is probably interesting and attractive to people? We've listened to the show Noam chomsky on independent thinking, steph curry, on basketball. I could go on. I can't believe I've been sleeping on this app and, as I look at many of these videos, they're show well produced so informative and really really tight, so that you're, not wait, in a minute you're, just getting these warnings and a very attractive and interesting and entertaining way with master class. You can learn from the best to become, your best anytime anywhere and at your own pace, annual membership start at ten dollars a month and you get unlimited access to ever structure, thousands of online lessons, exclusive content, insights and much more get unlimited access

every class and right now, as a ten percent happier listener, you can get fifteen percent off when you got a master class dotcom flash ten percent? That's master class dot com, slash ten percent for fifteen percent, often annual membership master class dot com, slash ten percent. I want you to picture steve jobs, tinkering with a computer and his garage walt disney drawing cartoon for his high school newspaper. Every big mouth it starts with a big dream. But what happens when that dream turns out to be an even bigger family each week on wonder, is new podcast the big flop host me. brown is joined by different comedians to chronicle some of the biggest failures and blunders and pop culture. History data. So what are you thinking why, in the world did this get made from box office flops like cats, the movie to action park, new jerseys, infamous theme parks

had countless injuries. Many lawsuits can ride so wild. It became known as class action part or quickly. That short form Your platform with an even shorter life span, it's a story of a spectre. You are failure with lots of surprises along the way enjoy the big, on the one area or wherever you get your podcast, you can listen to the big flop early and ad free on one replaced, get started with your free trial and wondering dot com, slash, plus, I want to say a word in your defence on the issue of meditation, which has come up a bunch which is having one Do your evolution on the subject of meditation? I! You modeled on the first time you came on this show. Thinking again, The first time you and I met, I can went down ward and interview you and we did an interview that ended up on the show and also a good morning. America, people can go back and listen to it and I believe,

you came into that interview quite hostile to meditation and we talked about it and you shifted from hostility deserve, bull slightly, more open, mindedness and maybe realizing that you had misunderstood if one or two things, but it wasn't some big fight, we had we just talk about it and I could watch you in real time, be willing to re, examine your own convictions, which you had heretofore before that stated publicly, which is even harder to to evaluate what you ve kind of gone on the record with something didn't know you were writing a book about rethinking, but in a moment I was impressed with your ability to rethink and so when you make jokes about meditation, I want to be clear to everybody. That's not like yours, somehow, like dug in saying that some horrible thing to do. I think what I hear is yeah. I'm open to it. I just haven't gotten around to doing it and I may never do it so interesting about. First of all, thank you. I take that as a huge compliment, that you perceive me as willing to think again can. Actually, I definitely want to be someone who is

and that other, as I'd be a hypocrite readiness book a similar memory of that interaction ends. might have narrated it a little bit differently. So here's my version of it and you can tell me what agree and disagree. I don't feel like. I was ever hostile to the idea of meditation. I think whatever practices are effective for people and don't harm them or others and have agreed playing an increasingly impressive science behind them more power to area. I think when I was hostile to was being preached at, one too many times about devastating and essentially being prosecuted as a non meditated. Yes, and so in other than the more the more people. I had this reaction to me of what do you mean don't meditate the more I wanted to say. Well, wait a minute here. You know, there's a little bit of evidence of you know some risks and side effects for some people,

You know- and there are also other ways to get a lot of benefits that you want, and you know it just. It activated my prosecutor instincts and I think you give me too much credit. For the way. I responded in that conversation because I didn't have that reaction to you, I didn't, have a reaction to you because you did not preacher prosecuted. You had a curious, humble discussion about the science and you are much more open than a lot of the meditation experts and thought leaders that I've spoken with around saying I believe it works for every person in every situation, and I don't even think you have to do it, and then you gave me the best still best argument. I've ever heard for it I remember saying something like you know: if you're trying to reduce stress or you're trying to build mindfulness here reading fixed and are exercising knew also reasonable pass and those are my form of meditation I remember I see you stop me in my tracks, just with a simple question, which was, I think it was a question. I remember it is a question which is

can you read a novel, or can you do a work out in their twenty seconds before you get on stage I make no. No, I can't you ve gotten us, and you said I can. I can carry this with me everywhere and it is instantly available on demand, and I thought that was the most brilliant art for why meditation is unique and what differentiated a lot of other practices that I think are good for stress, management or mindfulness at I'm very, very open to the idea. Thanks to you, I do want to ask you some practical questions before I let you go here. You have is really helpful thing in the back of your book, the called actions for impact with certain ways that we can develop the habit of thinking again we ve gone through some of them like thinking like a scientist, but there are others that I'd like to get into and one of them you've referenced before. But I haven't, let you fully sort of explain head on, which is defining deputy in terms of values, not opinions

you're turning me a new human jukebox. Here you have a strong and I'm in a play it here year ago. So this is actually a fund challenge, so yeah. I think one of the mistakes that a lot of people make that prevents them from thinking again is they started, take their beliefs, as their identity right. So you see that whenever you hear somebody say well, I'm an occupy wall street her or I may never temper, and those are statements about things you believed to be true or false, her or good or bad And the moment you take on one of those identities is the moment you stop being willing to question the things that you think are true and false, and so, but I prefer, see. People do is to define themselves in terms that are values rather than their opinions. And so my version of this is to say, look

my values, my core principles are generosity, excellence, integrity and freedom. Those are the the four values that matter most to me. I am very open about the best ways to live those values and I might find the some of the practices that I thought were good for being a generous person or for achieving success or, for you know, being a person honor who lives by my commitments or for defending the freedom of other. People in and giving them autonomy. I might have been wrong about the best way to do that anymore. changed my mind. I love that another and I'm sorry to make you into a jukebox here, but I think these are we sang in this. One, in particular, is a song that I'd like to hear you say, because I think not enough of us to do it especially in the era of you know. We talked about you know, being able to curate your own little echo, chamber, we are prejudices and beliefs are reinforced and you're not challenged. You said one of the pieces of advice you you give here

terms of building the skill of thinking again is seek out information that goes against your views. Can you talk yeah. I think we're all familiar with confirmation bias right only looking for in from in the validates what you already believe and its cause- and desirability bias, which is Are you seeing the things that you want to be true and I think the people who who kind of trap us in that world are the are a support network, ironically right the the people who cheerlead for us and encourage us in our backs. They offered the people that are building the echo chambers are the filter bubbles around us that prevent us from seeing alternative perspectives what we all need is not just a support network but a challenge at work, which is the group of people that you trust to hold you accountable being open minded to? Let you know when you're your beliefs might not be correct, your most thoughtful critics and what are often do when you

forming a hypothesis about something that I think is true is I will reach out to somebody who I know holds a different point of view. Or who I know is more knowledgeable than I am in that area and asked him. Where do you see holes in my thinking. and that's a great way to to make sure that I'm not just drinking the kool aid that I have found to be delicious crack that I'm actually learning for somebody who has different tastes. What about fur? Those of us who aren't you know formulating hypotheses as for a living we're just sort of veto going about our lives are ways to seek out opposing it's a view on social media, the wayward tailoring our feeds etc in order that could make us better citizens happier humans, yeah, one of my first principles when it The social media is that I follow people who make me think hard, not people who make me feel good and so,

I'm interested in ok, do I respect the thoughtfulness and rigour and integrity of somebody's thought process, regardless of whether I think their conclusions are right or not, and that means the information that I've curated to come in front of me is not usually opinions that I agree with its opinions that really stretch my thinking. That of all my thinking. In last, I checked that's the whole point of learning credits not to affirm our beliefs. It's actually to update and involve our beliefs are their downsides. Here you know cause I've done this experiment for the last four or five years of kind of trying to self gaslight by really exposing myself to his many, opposing points of view as possible because I'm I'm writing about how we can work with our own biases. So I've tried to experiment and myself in this regard, and I wonder, is it possible that you could become so open minded, that's you lose sight of important.

And really any and non negotiable truth. Zena boot, for example, the mainstream media has been accused of a kind of both sides. ism, that normal lies some of the transgressions of the trump administration. Yet I think I think, there's a danger. I think there the easiest way to avoid the danger is to recognise that ray, It doesn't have to change our opinions. Open your mind without changing your might ads what I mean by that is to say, look how you should be receptive to different points of view, especially if you have a strong conviction on an issue right? That means your most vulnerable to confirmation and desirability by us, but you should also have standards. One of the questions like to ask other people when they're they're, getting really dogmatic is what evidence would change your mind and I want really clear about that. I'm not asking what would change your mind, I'm asking what evidence would change your mind, because I want to have a

the station in the realm of facts and data, not opinions. And I try to hold myself to the same standards, which is this is actually something I learned from jean Pierre begum? Who is a super forecaster in the book who predicted trump as the winner of the republican primary when Nate silver had em at six percent end, most forecasters thought he was a joke. This is back in november, twenty fifteen and one that jean pierre does as arguably the world's most accurate election forecaster. He be actually competes in tournaments to do this is when he form tentative opinion. He actually makes a list of the conditions under which he would changes might and that way he staying open but he's also saying: look, I'm not just gonna quit flop. When somebody makes a persuasive argument, I am actually gonna have criteria around I would consider to be rigorous logic or in a truly convincing data then I know that I am evolving as opposed to just a kind of changing

in what might be the wrong direction? There's so much in this book, and I fear we ve just skim the surface, which I guess your publicist will be happy to hear that, because we'll have to go, read the book now, which I recommend they do. But let me just ask you before we close here- is there something that I should have asked, but didn't did I commit any sort of malpractice? You're? Not that I know, but I have a question for you sure, which is in the spirit of the book. What do you think I should rethink? of of anything that I wrote any topic. I tackled any discussion we had today. I think one of my fears in writing. This book was that I was gonna, get locked in the particular idea about rethinking, and that would obviously be hypocritical- and I don't want readers to agree with every conclusion drawn right when I want them to do, is to do some rethinking based on the framework, the data, the ideas, and so I am sure there are things that I got wrong or that I missed what? What do you think is something that I should be rethinking two things to say. I think

if I had to guess the area we are likely to get the most push back, be around some things are wrong and I shouldn't rethink them. The end you even just doing that is going to create danger of missing the you know. The crimes at around building in front of us from whatever political point of view. You might have that's our I go personally. I just suspect. That's what you'll hear Ben I will say. I'm a terrible forecast, or so That may not be right. Selfishly. The thing that I would actually really like to see you rethink is willingness to try. Adaptation, and why say that selfish is because I We just want to hear what it's like for you after you've done a couple of months of it's straight. If that ever comes to pass, it may never come to pass, and I'm certainly not pressuring you to do that. I want to frame this as purely selfish, because I'm always super interested in what smart people are going to say after they've had a certain dosage of the practice. Could I react to both of those

church. So, on the meditation frank you had me add, I would love to see you try meditation I'm up for it left. Let me know which practice you recommend I am happy to try anything that you think is worth trying dan. You ve never steered me in the wrong direction in the past, and if this is the first time, then at least what and something about where I should rely on your judgment and whereas requested it. But then, then you said: try it for a couple months and stir it. Sorry, if you dont have a case. I have this heuristic that I dont add anything to my schedule. Unless there's something I can subtract, and so I would to find something to remove that. I do on a regular basis in order to fit this in some level, so either have to find something You have to persuade me that there is a must pro version of this experiment a day or a week where something to be learned either for me here, for you are both. Yes, you know

actually right, and I normally wouldn't say it that way to people I was trying to you know. Maybe gently encouraged to try this, because I realized that does sound daunting. Sorry frame it to say that there is like a one day, introduction course on the ten percent happier app, and it's only like five to ten minutes a day. So you could reduce your instagram earth or twitter time by five ten minutes, and you probably be happier just by dint of having done. At and do this instead and I'd be curious, here, your reaction, whether the lands in any way, I'm absolutely up for them I'm already starting to think through. Ok what what would motivate me to keep doing this and the reality is. think I would be motivated to try it and then to persist with it. If I saw some benefits, the people that I care about I don't feel personally like I need it and said that's been one of the barriers is, if I don't have to do it, it's nother task, but when I think about

a few of the hyper anxious people in my life and I'm an anxious personal ready. So the people who are even more anxious than me. I think that if they tried it with me, it would become something. I would really stick to you, because I would feel egg ok weather This is really gonna, be life training for me or not. They need something They ve tried, allow other things and they're not working, and so let's give this is a real shot and if I'm in with them, maybe they'll follow through too I'm curious describe yourself as an anxious person. I would describe myself that way for sure. Still, even after all this, invitation, although I'm less anxious, do you describe others anxious and you have described some things you ve done to work with it, which I am for what it's worth strongly approve of, including exercise and reading fiction. given the data around the impact of meditation on anxiety, which has reasonably strong? Why would you need the for a motivation of doing it for other anxious people in your life instead of yourself setting the easy answers. The time commitment

if I haven't really given it a serious shot. It's because I just I feel like I have enough on my plate already, and it's the same way that I resisted for years, when my dennis so I've lost my teeth. I've never had a cavity, should I admit it I finally got gotta know that are now I'm a religious laws are, but just the idea it's gonna spend an extra minute each day, doing something it didn't seem directly productive, adjust it didn't it didn't do it for me, and so I think that's what's happened primarily I think the other. The other reason that I haven't gone for it is for the most part, I feel, like I'm, a very high functioning, anxious person that it's mostly just an internal sensation every once in a while. I feel like it, max. You know it's a kind of leaks into a talk that I gave or assemble. conversation. When I've gotten nervous ends, I could have been a lot more fluid and eloquent.

But I don't feel like its cause, real harm issues and of a nuisance and said I guess the nuisance factor hasn't for me yet outweighed the time investment it would take. That makes sense it does, but it should read because I waste at least I waste at least as much time beating myself up over the situations where I was a little bit anxious and I stumbled through an argument or an answer- and I shouldn't have- I could redirect at times we're trying something like meditation in and seeing, if its effective for me I'll, send you a resource that will be quick and easy and as long as you truly believe that I I will not quiz you or follow up about it unless you actually want me to follow up. No, I'm I'm open to it and part of my personal motivation for writing. Think again was I wanted it. It was it. It was an opportunity for me to plant a flag in the ground for people that I think are extremely though

for to push me to rethink more often, because I know that when I have you no feisty debates, I do get too much in prosecutor mode and I wanted to make it very clear that, I'm somebody is willing to change my mind in the hopes that there would be people who convinced me to do that. End, you're one of the people that I would look to you for that day, and so I am absolutely up for this. Let's do it. If you want to talk about it afterward. I would love to for my own learning and for whatever you're curious about figure out what comes out of it. So I'm I'm up for that. You're, the first person who's ever gotten me to say yes to this, since I think I was eleven or twelve doing karate with those little meditations at the beginning and then just going back to your at your first comment. If I understand point you're staying that some people push on the idea that their certain beliefs, that are our two sacred to rethink or that are too dangerous to question. I'm getting

sense for my peregrinations on twitter and constant consumption of pack casts There is a feeling of. Why are you asking me to understand the other side right now, they're so clearly wrong that what I need. to be doing is not spending time, understanding them, but fighting their actions, which has such deeply deleterious effect. Yeah. I think that's that's a fair critique and I would direct anybody with that view to chapter eight. Because my my eye opening moment on this was realising that hearing the other side is not. The solution is actually part of the problem, there's a psychologist, Peter common who has a difficult conversations lab where he said is that, if you just get it both to the other side's argument. It doesn't do any good, because is clearly wrong. You can find a lot of ways to decimated what he shows

you wanna complexity, that spectrum and say you know that it is not black and white. What you is a liberal conservative divide or a democrat republican divide is actually a complex spectrum of beliefs. That's malta issue and different people are different points alone that spectrum, and so you know at you, I don't think you're gonna make much headway with the people. Who are you know in the alt right or you know who are who are storming the capital right, I do think, though, that there are a lot of people there might be: seventy million of them who voted for donald trump and I would say a fair number of them. Don't agree with everything that he said. I don't agree with some of the things that he does and I don't we all need to go out and say: I'm gonna go and understands what I think, to do is we need to say well, what's the most effective approach, if the goal is to try to get people to be more,

open on something that they have already closed their minds on. Then, I'm going to do whatever it takes to events, my values- and I guess maybe a different way of I'm getting out. What I'm trying to say is. I think we we need to see the new out in the middle of the spectrum. We need Recognize that there are a lot of people who voted for a candidate that we may head, and this is true on both extremes, who are one dimensional human beings and We can recognise that there are some issues that we actually see eye to eye on. We're more likely to have a reasonable conversation ends. I think america would be a better place, if we had more reasonable conversations, I'm not saying with people who hate your existence or who think that you deserve to be punished, for merely having an opinion. I'm saying. people who have a view that different from yours and then too easy to demonized. I dont think we solve this problem by having less thoughtful conversation well said

thank you not only for common on the pike s, but for doing the work you do. As you know, I've made no secret that given take out a big impact on meat playing a role. Book. I'm working on right now and I spent the more I talk to you about this new book. The more I realize this one is gonna lander, probably in a similar way, so I really appreciate your work and really appreciate you come on. As always. That means a lot to me dad. I can't wait to read this book that you ve been working on ends. I appreciate all the ways in which you make people more mindful in the world, because I think so much of thinking again is about being less judgmental, in the way that we evaluate ourselves and other people and the choices we make ends you're sort of a portal to but being more open minded, which is what I am trying to accomplish. You big thanks to Adam, go check out his book called think again, and I really think- and I don't have to think twice about this- I think the book

It's gonna be a big hit, wanna thank as well everybody who worked so hard they show a reality to point five ex per week, Samuel Johnson is our team leader. This producer dj kashmir is our associate producer. Our sound designers, Matt boyton from ultraviolet audio maria, were tell is our production coordinator. Want to thank everybody from the t v h side who weigh in with such useful advice on the regular gent point, Nate Toby is Levin and ben reuben owen. housman, who is constantly pitching in with helpful advice, and finally, I would be remiss if I didn't and with a hearty salute to my abc news, comrades, ryan kessler, Josh tell him we'll be back on friday with a bonus meditation from Matthew hepburn, the title of which I love this, is I dont want to meditate c on friday for that,

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