Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth. if you haven't tried walking meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out. Here is One use your head to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog the long I use it the more I learn the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life. Changing that's awesome to hear although the ten percent happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free, from abc. This is, ten percent happier. Podcast dan Harris again you may have heard about stoicism in common parlance. as having a stiff upper lip sucking up, grinning and bearing its suppressing your emotions, etc.

We have also heard of stoicism the capital S. The can greco roman philosophy that has become the director set of life hacks among millennial self optimized. My guest today is here to argue convincingly my opinion. That stoicism is way deeper than any of that. She will argue in fact that Their wisdom is kind of the opposite of all of the above. Wait a truly no your patterns of thought and emotion. The stoics she says where a sort of early cognitive behavioral therapists, They even developed a whole set of meditations designed to help people handle worst case scenarios. Shave down, egos and develop a sense of connection to the universe, all of which she is now going to teach how to do she by the way, is nancy sherman she's, a professor of philosophy, a georgetown university, an expert in ethic,

the history of moral philosophy, moral psychology, military ethics and emotions, her most recent book is called stoic wisdom, ancient lesson. For modern resilience. In this conversation, we covered the basics of stoicism. How and why capital s stoicism is often misinterpreted. These days, a meditation practice called pre meditation of evils, which is far more practical, that it may sound and another practice designed to make you feel quote at home in the world. One brief had there is a very quick reference in this conversation to suicide before we diving with nancy one item of business, if you ve been lost to the show for, while you ve probably heard me talk about our companion meditation up, which is also called ten percent, happier the opposite place. You can go to practise what we talk about here on the past and you can do so with meditation.

that are led by some of our most popular podcast, guests is sort of like science class in college. The podcast is the lecture and the app is the lab. so whether you're interested in treating yourself with a little bit more compassion, having hard conversations without hurting relationships or pausing and taking a breath instead of snapping at your child, you can learn about the skills here and then practice them over there in the app. But just like that college lab section, motivating yourself to actually put in the practice time is hard. Those few milliseconds between closing the podcast app and firing up the meditation app are rife the possibilities for distraction, a new email, breaking news alert the temptation to doom scrolling what whatever they can all derail you pretty quickly? that's why they show the ten percent happier. Podcast is now people inside our companion app so that you can toggle seamlessly between listening and it's thing, learning and doing so now, when you subscribe to the ep, you'll be able to

transition very easily to meditation right after listening to the pot. Guess not imagine you'll receive access to our many courses which contain a whole lot of video or sleep meditations, and the podcast episodes are ad free and good news, as promised. The ad free podcast is available now, both on Iowa S and android, so to get started download the ten percent happier app after you get your apps and then tap on the podcast tab at the bottom of your screen. Ok, here we go now with nancy sherman nancy sherman. Welcome to the show thanks so much dan pleasure to be here. My memory is not the best or is my wife sometimes describes me, I'm an unreliable, his but to my memory we have not done one show on stoicism. Certainly we have now dedicated an entire episode to a which is probably a big mistake, but were making afford. Now I hope,

that I will say that I know next to nothing about stoicism. So let me ask incredibly embarrassingly basic question, which is what is stoicism? That's a good question to start with, so stoicism is in ancient greco roman philosophy, So we all know, socrates, plato, Aristotle or the classical philosophers. The stoics came after certain. They follow after shut and they are both greek and roman, how zation spread out and so stoicism came a philosophy for how to deal with our vulnerability. The fact that there are accidents that there's bad stuff that happens, we're talking about a one the guy seneca. Who is these spin doctor and speech? or for nero I'm if you say the wrong things you get asked commit soon, early on and you ve career, but what it was also time.

I have enslavement as well as times of imperial lunch, so people are trying to deal with having a lot too much and gear egos explode. And also having very little and had a u temper, itself. How do you find calm? So some of it is about finding calm in a world of uncertainty which really appeals to us. Now I, as the ancient philosopher classical philosopher, have to remind people it's about virtue, it's about being good and being good in a world where we're connected globally there, the first cosmopolitans they really believed in that word cosmopolitan citizen of the cosmos or of the universe, that's where it came from. So what appeals to many is this idea of finding common a storm?

of being the master of your ship, the captain of your ship, but sometimes people think of it only as an internal story and not about how you are in the world with each other, how you become resilient through social supports, so that's the peace, I'm always trying to emphasise what will get into that in a big way, but I'm just trying to computer how what you just described, vulnerability and virtue squares with the common usage of stoa more stoic as sucking it up

for showing no emotion in the face of adversity. So, however, that came to be maybe through the british victorian staffer. I worked with the military for so many years. Second up and truck on is their mantra. That is an element of stoicism. The idea of having really strong will and be tough, no matter what, but the stoics were. Also, his amazing emotion theorists, they knew more about the emotions and most people now today reserve our early cognitive behavioral there, in a way, and so they were figuring out all the ways that we feel and all the ways that sometimes our emotions run away from us. They are too strong. So they are about tampering your emotions, but they're. Not

like getting rid of them or sucking it up at all costs. The portrait we often get is a kind of self reliance. Go it alone grit. You know tough it out, no matter what that is, and yet they're about connecting one of the most moving passages, I know is from marcus aurelius, so he's the emperor he's on the battlefield he seeing limbs strewn around. You know when I talked to soldiers, I think of this alot, their body parts and he's saying, if you ve ever seen an arm or a leg, separated from the trunk of the body, that's what we make of ourselves and we cut ourselves off from each other. so there's this social glue and you can't be tough without being attached somehow, but you have to figure out a certain kind of balance so that if

crap happens. You still have some equilibrium and some inner resources, as well as an ability to know where to turn to turn to others and have cultivated those friendships and detachments, including family, and all unity we live in. So did you write? It is in the common story, which is typically tough it out at all costs and john asked for help. That is really in this reading of stoicism I think it's a really dangerous one. If that's the messages out there, however, there are potentially a few Reading says the way stoic is used in the common parlance. If you'll I haven't, get up in the dictionary, but little ass little. as a small, ass, yeah yeah, which is showing no emotion in the face of adversity or something to that effect. I think, and then there's

Let's see I've run the numbers on this, but my just by observing a there seems to be a pretty robust embrace of capitalist stoicism in particular, Serve self optimizing. Young men- and I haven't looked at this closely and I think you have are you seeing that some people are wrong? We leaning him to suck it up, ethos of it and not looking enough at virtue vulnerability, absolutely Leaning in is a good phrase. You have air leading into your man of of manliness and there's all often massage indian there Tough, it out at all costs. It's almost. The stoic military culture gets writ large over a general culture

or some of it's silicon valley has something to do with it, you're. In tough circumstances, he got to get the angel investment next week. The numbers have to run clearly you're jack, dorsey and stuff is happening. You know that you don't like whether it's through twitter or square and you need to find quiet and calm, and so you sort of do it on your own or you take ice baths. That's one of his things. Are you Fuck, you walk outside. Without coats So the idea is, you can handle no matter what adversity. Comes your way that really is and the so the stoic story is that you can't do it on your own and the always gotta think of a cooperative endeavour, so Europe virtue gets sideline fur inner strength at all costs and also a kind of connectivity get sidelined.

for there is no challenge that isn't one that you can handle the idea of kind of mental discipline that matches s letter, discipline. Now the stoics have a lot of that is a lot of talk about being in the german there's, no adversity that you can't handle, but they are so many other strands that gets sidelined by the idea of handling any circumstance? That comes your way. I have to just add. You know, they're coming out of a tradition of tragedy, the great tragedy. You know, horrible things happen, you lose your kids have to sacrifice a kid in order to set sail for the trojan war agamemnon, so that greeks and romans no tragedy big time, and so they can be forgetting at their just trying.

To figure out, how do I deal with it and how do we deal with it while still being in a community? So, like anything, people pick up stuff that they wanna hear and you write, the man a sphere is sometimes called, can get pretty ugly and toxic man a sphere. I wanna be clear that. When I talk about self optimizing, young man, I didn't mean to denigrate them then. The young parted pretty much describes me, I'm so interesting. One of the reasons why we wanted to have you want is that you really emphasise the parts of stoicism that seem to have been shunted aside or given short shrift when put through the filter of western individualism, where we sort of like

Do it on your own? Don't show any emotions, I guess it's not just western individualism, its problematic masculinity in combination with western individualism yeah. I think that's probably right. There's the can do aspect. And there's a kind of self reliance theme that goes through the uptake of stoicism. but what's really serve fastenings ancient? This came in to being around the time of the judeo christian birth in a certain way, and so some of it sounds very familiar to us. We're all showed Oh god, they would say children of Zeus, but You know we're all in the cosmos. We share humanity we share humanity in virtue of having common reason mean. This is also enlightenment, philosophy right. It's our founding fathers of american constitution. jefferson, washington, all read this stuff. It was night time reading, so they ve got this big

a picture in mind in it isn't too self reliance. They ve got a picture of. How do you bill The world of shared humanity, and so that doesn't get picked up, means if optimizing is a good way of putting it in the idea of what's the best flourishing. Life for me greeks and romans never talked about. For me. They talked about for us, they were always thinking of you rick the small city state in hours, athens as soon as athens started, getting big. and the romans came along with an empire- is a bigger world. It's almost the whole world, so they ve got to figure out how to connect everyone, and they have to figure out how to connect everyone through shared disco.

Teresa shared emotions and also a sense that were all vulnerable, We gotta use each other as supports for helping us I get through it. So the idea of kind me So your potential not quite sure, that's a very ancient idea, I'm going ask another, maybe embarrassingly basically, We talk a lot in the show by buddhism. I understand this to a certain extent what buddhism is and how you do it You ve just described a little bit. What stoicism is I'm curious? How do you do so? Why do you operate analyze this wisdom in your life? It's a great question, no need to be embarrassed. Pardon Your appeal is that they have practices and some of the products since our meditations and the meditations are like eastern met,

stations of quieting, all the babble in your mind, but rather discursive like talking talking through its own, fried no surprises a kind of western psychotherapist any in the mind but the ancients almost so some of it is that, at the end of the day, you keep a note book in the quiet of the night of seneca, when my wife's asleep, he says- and I think about things really. We got me angry or afraid her got the better of me when someone is really silly. I can yell a member of his household, for dropping a crystal goblet. or he wasn't seated at the day s where he thought he should be at the head table where all the important people were. He was put on the back of the room, or another one is it, He should have been led into a house. The dormant it led him into the house is an important person.

So, as his ego was offended, he got this you might say and he's trying to temper hers expectations of it in the morning. He keeps some of this stuff in mind, so that's one thing: meditations at the end of the day and other languages really, I think important. I ran through this with my mother certain way, skull, pre rehearsal of evils. It's a horrible phrase, the prima Hersel bad. Yet you dwell in the future. You anticipate things that could happen, Could unmoor you my mother hatred to talk about death. Here. She was ninety seven and under seeing home again. She'd smile. When I came in she read about three novels a week, but death wasn't on her plate. So I said, molly did we sign up the immortality plan, when we put you in it We put you there or we

because if we do, this can be really expensive of. It's got a bit rise out of her and it became our secret way of talking about the future and a future. She clearly drafted so rehearsing sing. Your mortality is a big theme in stoicism and you know that's like the ultimate for many people. How do you deal with leaving this world in your family? So I think it became and our case a kind of shared das. We would how this old joke. Did we sign up for him or tell anyone is aware stepping into her dread in future, and we made it less toxic. That's a very so aktuell, three rehearse the future and especially future outcomes. You dont want to happen comparison but fear setting you they have. You set your fears a little bit by anticipating them.

Another thing they have is heads your bets. It's called mental reservation when you start thinking of thing You wanna, have you always have to be adapted and resilience through being agile. So when you start to think about your plans like in a well my book, be a great success. Maybe it won't. You always serve have this, maybe it wants I now have this clause that you stick in, things work out, but they may not answer There are always trying to get you to think in advance about how to be flexible, and I think that really is for my life is so important in I've. Grandkids. I have grandkids. I can't control their lives at this point. They're terribly successful. You know by all metrics, but they don't always do what I want them to do, and I got a kind of always

sort of say. Well, maybe it won't be exactly like that very stoic Doesn't sound, stoa gravely never hey, I'm like half it out take on any challenge, get on the mat with the hardest opponent. Now it's just like you against yourself, trying to you're out what are some of the demons you have to face and are they as bad as they might be other us out of the batteries meditation practice because I think there's going to be of interest to this audience, many of whom are meditated, for you cannot touch on three different practices there, but I'd love to go back. dive a little bit more deeply into each one of them said. The first was what described seneca one of the pre eminence stoic, ass, a at the end of the day after his wife had gone to sleep. Running through all of the ego bruises he suffered during the day. He just walk us. how we might practice this in our own lives. Sure his list looks

just like things we might be up against. At the end of the day, Were you slighted by someone who you fought? Owe you a bit more respect? It could have all sorts of tongues in my classroom. it could be graduate students at all. You know I wanna have spare me more than I think they are or it could be. My kids, who I think, said something that was hurt for and the bruised me a bit and united, could start writing a letter to them or an email or a text, but have to hold myself back, and I stood a thing. So what was in it? For me, why was I son vest? in this, the stoics are very big on sticky attachments you're my phrase, but it's a quiz

agnes swear. It's gotta work out the way I want it to work out, and I want to think about it that way, and that way alone and I'm invested in this particular outcome, or this particular way. I want to see things go in the background of this meditation practices at the things out there. They use a word that doesnt read well for us indifference, but it really

It means they don't really change the balance of your happiness. You gotta learn how to approach and avoid without all of that acquisitive this that we have or outright fear so yeah be cautious. Wearily cautious and yeah invest in things, so they matter but John invest in it, so that its the be all and end all that's very healthy. I mean that's healthy, no matter what psychotherapy you believe- and I think- and so they ask you to run through your day a little bit like that in my case is timid. family members who I am the most invested in my immediate circle, and was there a remark there're friend whose we have had an off the cuff remark that just robbed me the wrong way. Why let go a little bit.

so we would say in an eastern meditation, let go quiet your mind of that. May don't have that language has never this greek and roman philosophy, they're all about discoorsin chatter and reason. So they ask you to think about it I'd, say more on an older school western psychotherapy way. You have put words to it and think about, why it's a narcissistic bruce and some of them are so mundane, like you weren't the guest of honor at the banquet, but you know you were put in the rear of the banquet hall. I find it extremely useful and you know, if you're a diary writer at the end of the day, do meditation through writing in a diary. As many of us do, it's meant to carry over to the morning. Not keep you awake, that's hard,

could easily keep you awake if you, nor on it and get anguished over it, but the ideas in it. release you a little bit from a poor way of thinking about it or from the mis evaluations. They think we really falsely valley wait, a lot of stuff. You know we have the wrong estimates of things. We overestimate our reputation. We overestimate our ability to earn money to be rich? We overestimate that you want to live forever and make a huge impact on the world may go on the user, just the opposite of a kind of moral static, lifestyle and therein that world they are so in that world therein, the height of almost decadent roam at times you know they're into power, politics, fame and fortune, and so is all the more appealing to them to figure out how to deal with is demons in a certain way,

so interesting and I think it's different from eastern meditation because its shoddy and talkative, but on the other hand it gets it some of the real I'd say about values and many case money. Great, but just to accumulate it without helping the world become a better place. I wouldn't go for that military strength. Real courage is great, but just to be daring and just be able be parachute her and jump out of things or be a seal. You know, and just so that you can endure under any conditions, no matter how tough they are not great, unless it's aimed at something other than your own strength, a cause that you really think is worth it. So that's what they're asking you to think about. I like this a lot- and you have said a couple of times that it's not meditation and in the eastern sense, I think that's true to a large extent and slash, but I would say

If you look at the word that the early buddhists used for meditation, it was, I believe, an and people can send me note on twitter from tele wrong about this, but I believe the word that were used was bob enough and that word translates flee into cultivation, and so what we're doing? Imitation meditation cultivating mental skills, and what I am hearing here is that at the the day either journaling or he just lying in your bed and were sitting on a meditation. fishing in running through the parts of the day where you got your ego, Who is you got attached that this has the benefit of surfacing thee? Would you call sticky attachments the psychic crampons on the rock face of life where we're just holding onto things in appropriately and in a way that just didn't blocks our ability to be maximally effective, that this can have this

harry effect over time of getting us to let go of stuff. That doesn't matter. I think. Incredibly, so I thought a lot more about. How do I distance myself put space between all the things that I know matter in my life, but having healthy children, a healthy grandchildren, a good marriage, a philosophy department that I love and really respect working in colleagues, and what would happen if some of that kind of fell apart a bit through illness or things not necessarily in my

control? How would I just a little bit side? It is. Am I over investing and stuff? I can't control. You know a lot of the narcissistic injuries come from outside, not all, but many of them come from over estimating the way that those things matter. I like length of life, not matter as much as the quality of the every day. You know that my kids do the things I want them to do, in this order and putting these goals that really doesn't matter as much as that, their good people and flourishing right. You know that sort of thing, so I think the greeks and romans are all about thinking of life as a whole, they're not about every single individual action. It's about a flourishing life for us together as a whole. That's a really important thing to do. That's like the bird's eye, perspective

on the whole thing and I think, coming away without those acquisitive attachments and all, but the grandparents stuck on the rock face. It's a great praise is a way of looking a little bit more broadly, What matters is also, though value checks. Am I right revaluing the right things that is critical. Am I investing in the right things? Am I going gesture more z after the dollar sign, or am I going fur? That's a good person. I like this community because we do good things and that's why I'm part of this community. I thought about it's a lot lately, because I think it whose very stoic in my world in a lot of them are military guys but they're, not always stoic for their right.

and they do all the social outreach, but they always think that what matters is their courage at all costs strength I will never break. I will be bullet proof and I can do what ever is asked of me and that's the measure will that's not the measure, and so if they are hard on themselves because they think they have to be bulletproof. That's another place where you would check yourself in june When do, I think, I'm invincible you'd be surprised how many people think they're invincible or a popular term these days anti fragile who's, the anti fragile who's invulnerable on ice. You know, but I like to think of ourselves is never breaking, especially in public and the stoics. When dispute, They would dispute the idea that you're invincible.

they're, trying to help you deal with vonder ability, but they're not trying to make you in vulnerable. We all want to deal with in vulnerability. I dont know who doesn't you show up at your doctors, appointment and all of a sudden the bludward comes in and doesn't look so good and you know that's crushing you get the news. What's the next step, how am I gonna do justice to this, or I thought I had a classroom that felt safe for everyone, but maybe it doesn't know teaching and soon when you get everyone in their bedrooms, closets open other people with four poster beds and fluffy things all around you. You see all the difference. You gotta make it comfortable for everyone and that's a challenge. It's being reflective. Now I will say the downside of being overly reflective as it could keep you awake at night. So you can't,

up on yourself and so that's a fine line we have to between wanting to be good and being good to yourself. So do it. I think about that. A lot because very easy to getting a bit neurotic about challenges to become a better person? How do you personally walk that line in light of fur europe study of stoicism I think I try to make such a little bit with the eastern idea of quieting. My head the two in the morning. I don't talk to myself or if I catch myself talking to myself, I try to stop being so litigious through montresor the lake, and I often think in a journaling way that I definitely try to think what values matter the most to me and which ones are super hobo risen

stuff that I really can let go of. I think, as you get older, it's a little easier. You know you're not on the path of my career. I gotta go this way and if I don't make these next steps in whatever latter your on blink, that's that I dont think I have that same push. So I think, if you do, you have to keep asking yourself which values you go in for and which ones you sort of think a little bit more horrible word indifferent. As we already say, indifference like apathetic. But what they mean is fake europe Had a select health just select bad habits or disease, but don't get so hooked on health,

that if you get some bad news, it's the end. You're done in you can't let go. I think about is the right kind of almost certainly behaviour modification approach and be wearily cautious in avoiding, but don't talk cling cling so that you can't let go you remind me of how the buddhists use words like this passion? non attachment disenchantment in a positive way. Yes, I think there's a lot of similarity you know and in a future book I actually want to join up with a colleague and think about this. I practiced buddhist meditation for a long time and have read a lot of citrus and also secondary sources and there's a lot there. They do have this sense of selflessness, it's just not greek and roman or stoic

so the stoics think of you. Europe disappear. Your reason is: what's gonna, be your guide in life, their western philosophers in that regard, the tradition of thinking about how to make the world a better place through your reason, in conjunction with others, a kind of commonwealth of reason. Cosmopolitanism really is about all of us together in cooperative, rational endeavors, don't think of that as particularly buddhist. I may be mistaken on that my thick and the idea of kind of disappearing a bit in meditation so that you become less important in the flow of things as a student of greek philosophy, there's always the best part of your psyche.

His reason whether it's it shows up in your emotions through kind of emotional intelligence and and smart emotions, or it shows up in being prudential or it shows up in being planned full or, as we were saying before, rehearsing some of these bad things. You don't want to happen, but thinking about them dwelling in the future, so you're always really engaged with your mind, there's a lot of mental effort that goes into being a stoic in some ways. I think of retreats and silent retreats as ways of really tat bring down some of the heavy mental lifting? I may be wrong about this. I don't know enough to say whether you're wrong a right, but I'm intrigue by this thing. You said it. you know in buddhism, selflessness, which is

extremely difficult concept to grok, it essentially actually essentially have the wrong word to use, because the. The argument is that we have no essence that, yes, on some level, Nancy Sherman exists, I can see you on my computer right now and our listeners can hear your voice on some very obvious level. You nancy exist, however, if you close your eyes and look If some core negative nancy miss you won't find it the analogy that sometimes gets made. Is you know you can look at a chair that chair exists? You can trust that you can sit in it, but if you took a high powered microscope, you'd see that there is no assets of chair there. It's all spinning subatomic particles, and so yes as I have and it was in philosophy- doesn't go there either intellectually or experiential early, because that's the key part of eastern practices. They really takes you to

its essence looseness the selflessness experiential, but what's the practical ram occasion for one of them. As far as I understand it, one of the practical ramifications of sea that you don't have a self in the way you thought you did it, then you're a better player in the broader community and that exists in a prominent way in racism and I'm wondering whether on some level, the stoic- a reasoning themselves toward- the same, or at least one of the key outcomes that the buddhists would have us experience ourselves toward. I think that's absolutely the case metaphysics aside of who we are and whether we exist because of our essence or the essences of there, because we exist. They are the first to really talk about a cosmic city, a global city, a way in which and here's a bit of an essence because of our reason

we all are players in the same world yeah. They have trouble, of course, with their social conventions, they believe in enslavement. They, you know they have more servants than downton abbey would have. You know it makes downton abbey look shabby, but they think that we all can contribute in some way and that the world works more smoothly, if we think of ourselves, as in they use sort of plato's term a republic by the way it includes women, women get educated on the stoic view because they have reason and have the potential for virtue just like men. They also think in terms of how

walls, which sounds a little bit like the buddhist story that you're part of a whole you're part of a breathing hall. They talk about breath numa our word fur pneumonia p. An eu is their word for breath and its sweat. Your psyche is filled with brass, and we all share that breath woods- and the little eastern, almost we share kind of cosmic breath and we share with god, so that they have an ideal, the universe has some to buy. Now. Imagine it as well, but that said we're all neighbours, marcus Aurelius uses a wonderful phrase were coworkers where, fellow workers. Even when were asleep where contributing to this larger hall, and that's a very what an idea of diminishing a bit the port in some yourself. Reducing

your ego, investment and thinking about what's shared across all spheres and they have practices for doing this. caught becoming at home in the world, and you take circles and you think of you at the center, but You at the centre have these concentric circles around you and you think about the farthest circle and you bring through vivid imagination, that outermost circle closer to your centre, and they say it takes zealous effort. So it's a real practice, a discipline, a habit, and you imagine someone in the farthest reaches whom may be brought closer to you in the way that you're kidding can would be your kinsmen, your family, and you have to practice that regularly. The connection is an

matic, it's not magical is actually requires quite a lot of practice and effort. So this idea of your nothing if you cut yourself off from the hole, marcus aurelius the stoic emperors thinking on the battlefield comes the way of making the connection more vivid for yourself through this practice of bringing outer circles closer to the centre, now there's a hand, for any philosophy, and that is you make the outer circles in your image it you know whatever is me, is in large for everyone we get very narcissistic about how we want to see the big picture alone. but their essentially saying make it matter, bring those outer circles, edward and their athletes of the psyche the best way. To put it, they really believe in discipline for your mental training,

It's not doing a lot of logical exercises, its rather doing these rehearsals. What are you anticipating that you think you're over attached to let it go a little bit better At the end of the day, I imagine the world of which you are a part that you're a global citizen. How would that work back the question is there big ego and the centre cynicism well, yeah since they never diminish your reasoning capacity. We need it get smart emotions them all these trainings. You also needed to monitor your bias. I think this is a totally ignored part of stoicism. Then this idea that your interpreters, The world that's one of the practices you always have to remember. You interpret the world, and so you know maybe the his fortune isn't despatches, you thought, but then they say

make sure you watch the impressions, and this could be also your biases watch, the biases and press the pause button. You know phrase and continent to continent so that you can think more slowly, rather than just fast, be more reflective and practice putting some space between impulsive impressions and your spin on them and art, re spins, whether it has to do with how you view people in the farthest reaches of the world, who have little connection to you versus how you deal with what you want and need, and what gets you really pissed off and what gets you angry put some space in between those impressions and you're estimate of them. Much more my conversation with Nancy sherman read after this. When we think of sport stories, we tend to think,

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right now, ad free on wondering plus academy is a new scripted podcast, the fellows aver richards, a brilliant scholarships, attending bishop grey economy, the countries most exclusive boarding school academy it's you into the world of a cut throat, private school, where power, money and sex collide in a game of life and death, binge alternative The academy early and ad free on wondering plus So there are a bunch of practices. I want to make sure that we get back to and get more grandma run a while back many many minutes ago you listed three practices, and I said at the time: let's go deep on each one We ve only got deep on one of them, so we'll cut backs remaining two of those in a minute, but you then went on to list to other practices, the circles practice, which I also want to talk with us and you reference this threat

that can help us shaved down our biases. Can you just say a little bit more about how exactly we would do that in a stoic fashion, so the stoics, had this idea that you have all the stuff coming in and they call them impressions, and many of those impressions are really fast. Impulsive is their word, may call them impulsive impressions and part of the attraction to stoicism. Is they put so much attention you're effort, your will you discipline, and so they think that, if you can it's a technical term on, Is it not a cent or say yes, just some of those impulsive impressions that I've been dissed that someone is inferior to me. That's all

One is the way they are because of their choices. You name your favorite bias or prejudice and reflected impression. They say monetary, your patterns of attention. It could be through nighttime meditation practices. It could just be in the sense of learn how not to assent to them immediately given to them immediately and reflect on them so that you can change them. Seneca is really interested in anger. That's the one that he's really really fastened on, and he has this whole conversation about the fact that we get angry really fast and it takes us into tail spins.

And that we do horrible things because of anchor, and he says you should not assent to the idea that you ve been immediately insulted, not assent to the idea that someone is speaking in a tone that you don't like you know and that, as a result, you should give them some lip or dismiss them is ignorant. Her is not in your camp or whatever, and so it's a kind of, a higher otter thinking that you lay on top of your low order. Arousal is is very much what condoms the talking about in many ways about fast thinking, verses, slow thinking and stocks?

modern dave, neuro scientists, but they do have this idea that you have different tracks, whether it's your brain or your emotions or your belief system. They think all emotions really are kind of cognitions. So they think that you can introduce a higher level layer of reflection on those impulsive things. Some impulsive reactions you would never want to get rid of who would want to get rid of being really frightened. If you see a bare right, you wanna either freeze or get out of there. Many of them are adaptive, many or maladaptive unbridled fear is probably maladaptive unbridled.

Fear of people that are not like you is probably highly maladaptive their meditated. In this sense, they want you to figure out how to practise monitoring year patterns of attention. That's very be well. You might say it's kind of cognitive, behavioral therapy of a certain kind re, because they think that your emotions are by and large cognitive and they manifest in behavior old ways of behavior. You do this, you do that and that you should watch it more carefully. Now some

turning green in a storm. Launching when someone change you some stuff, you can't control it's your its euro autonomic system talking and there are four that they know that, but other things you might be able to control like some of the exploitative. They say that come out of your mouth when you ve a shudder, and let me that's one of the examples seneca gears. If language that was impulsive, you should kind of curb it a little bit. So here's how I see it all those people that think stoicism is just about me and my way of minimizing the impact of the world on me so that I can be in more. troll- and I can just sort of the world is as it is- an aim the captain of my ship? No, the stoics are actually saying. We interpret the world and we interact with that world and its through our interpretations, and we,

control some of those interpretations and change the world. We don't is not just a philosophy of resignation and acceptance, which is often how its interpreted as the world sucks I'm here. I have to deal with this deprivation, I'm going to make the best of it. I am a p o w people. I'd interviewed, that's my fate, I'll accept it. I don't think so at all I think they believe in changing the world, not just accepting it and you changed the world through the lens that you, where they think, sometimes you better change the lens that you're wearing, because you maybe distorting the world you may have been evaluations. They would cop miss estimates of the world the world, not just this color in that color. They think you were lenses, as you see a lot

long answer to, I think a really important point that I don't think people think about when they think about stoicism. They typically think about resignation. As a word, I hear a lot except things as they are in just deal with it, as opposed to I create the worlds in some way through how I see things which brings me back to one of the other practices you mentioned, which is this idea of thinking about circles of people and bringing the folks who are on the outer part of your circle. Close to you. I have two questions about that. One is: can you just say exactly how we would practice that, because it does sound close to some of the compassion or loving kindness practices in buddhism? The second question is: how would the stoics square that, with their warm embrace of slavery, okay, so the stoics have this idea that we are

enacted in the universe- and I gotta figure out a way of making us connected, and so they, gets a psychological habit and I think the person who really sort of helped us understand. The best The stoic idea was an enlightened and philosopher Adam Smith. So scottish enlightenment, they were all reading the stoics, and he has this idea that you trade places in fancy is his phrase. Imagine in a vivid way. You imagine a vivid way what's hard to imagine or another phrases you bring them to your breast, you bring them into your breast, and so that does get the compassion idea going. First smith, it was.

empathy, but he used. The word. Sympathy is not our word, but it really is more empathy. You feel what their feeling ass a kind of a mindset and not just a sense of benevolence right, which compassion is its. You actually imagine, engage in almost have physiological way what those others are going. through now journalism, especially visual journalism- is using way that we do this because we see images, we see pictures we see suffering, but in the eighteenth century here and for the stoics the turn of the millennium they're asking you to do it in your mind. As a visualization, we were caught visualization and so it's a very graphic set of images now, The institution of slavery is a hard subject anytime. You

our historian or a philosopher that deals with historical p. it's always gotta figure out. What do you do with stuff? It's distasteful to you. you whitewash it or not. So here's to things seneca, sometimes, no he's. Writing them. First censure the millennium. He saw in euros court because he's best speechwriter. There is man of letters and he writes about enslavement and he says You should treat your slave with humanity because they, You have reason- and you could be in lived in amiens enslaved inside, but not free inside you have your demons or changes of fortune could easily put you in a role reversal. That's sad! Some of his enlightenment, almost

in claims, I think, are please to treat year and slaved kindly because in the roman system they could be in courts. They could claim that you were beating them if their fugitive, you might not get them back and say, you'd have to deal with your vineyards, your household you're, accounts all by yourself, I mean so prudential. They have a vested interest in treating slaves. Well in some of the remarks that sound more enlightened might just be self serving for an elite is class, so I can justify roman or greek practices of enslavement. On the other hand, I don't think we should not read them as a result of that, but I think we should understand the social settings. I think when some

times. The romans stoic seem a lot more. They don't believe in natural and slaves in the way that Aristotle always talked about. There are some people who, just by nature of inferior status, they don't believe that they believe it's kind of conventional, that it happens through capture or circumstance. But sometimes what seems is compassionate treatment is self serving. They don't want to lose all the advantages of having a household retinue. So I mean look, it's also the roman empire, conquest, territorial gain, spanned at all cost, there's a lot of barbarism and all that. So I think, whenever you're dealing with complicated texts from com

created periods. We can't castle it out to use the phrase simply because it doesn't gibe with our current views of what we know to be a better world and a better social structure. But we still can learn enormous amount about our own in this case kind of mental psychology, urging the psychology and mental mental habits and ethical habits through reading them. I'm really of the opinion that in a classroom you put it all out there and you grapple, and you John council certain parts, because you dont know how to deal with it. I think you you have to do it as historical records in train

put it in context. I want to go back to both of the practices that I failed to get us back to earlier and again, I'm talking about the three practices you listed early early on in this discussion, the the first we talked about, which is sort of thinking about the ego bruises that come up during the course of the day. The second was something about the premeditation of evil and I'd, love to hear more about that, as does sound like something I naturally do. My own life is, you know, think about worst case scenarios and made comforting to play out the worst case scenario see that even in that scenario like I can survive it ass, a great when putting it may go in for a bit of shock and all I think epictetus, especially when others stoics, and that is you imagine

a worst case scenario. So you imagine what would be the worst possible outcome and you try to live with it while anticipated, so that you're not caught off guard. A lot of this is so it's not totally unexpected. And some of it is a way of being prepared mentally something's. I think it's hard to prepare for, I think, for example, with a pandemic, we should have been better prepared than we were and if you're an infectious disease doc, you might have been better prepared and you got your social message out. We could have done better, but in our person alive you're trying to imagine, ok, what would be the worst that would happen and you'll live with it. For when you ask yourself, is it so bad or how do you respond to it? So it's a bit like

the phrase it cicero uses, he's not a stoic, but he's a fellow traveller, and we get a lot texts threw him dwell in the future. Now they don't think you have to dwell in the future when it's the case of good stuff happening dwell in the future when it stuff, they could really do so You said dwell in the future, and here is a horrible phrase. My students think I'm crazy. When I tell them this phrase is very stoic from epictetus and before him the pre socratic kiss your child goodbye in the morning as if it's the last time I do that. I had never heard this phrase, but, but it is on my mind- and I have to imagine I'm not alone on this is every time I send my kids school. It's on my mind that something horrible get happen, and so I just keep that in my own of that's healthy or not, but I do noticed myself doing it, but ass bad. Is it true? rehearsal of the bats that is or pre rehearsal of evil.

It's a wave anticipating and putting a bit of a cushion around you should that eventuality happen. Now, if you're, the kids and, as my students often are, they do think that I'm telling them that their parents had this morbid fear and that seeing the reactions in their face, they think oh my god, my parents are so if they were to say it would be so unfeeling. So you know it gets up taken a different way from different size of a relationship. I think, but I do think it is a wave cushioning a bit a dreaded possibility and living with it a little better so that you're not blindsided, we'll. Let me present ever just a second, because I do find myself using this homespun version of this

with professional outcomes? I think about my company what would happen if it was all to go pear shaped and what moves could? Nor would I make etc, etc, and I find it comforting to think through the worst case scenario. However, I jones- No that I can do that with something horrible happening to my son when I goodbye in the morning I try to be. I don't know if it's coming from a healthy place, it did this I fear, every time he leaves my orbit. I dont know that I can generate any sort of cushion against the worst thing that I can imagine having, which would be something bad happened and why they re a little bit like there's a cognitive in an emotional side to this. So some of it might just be a cognitive habit and these I think that you can let it sink into year. Emotional framework now something horrible happen. They also this other some trick, but another tool undertook it, and that is that we have this

community of support that we have to remember- and I think that is part of the mental apple- gratis, so they have this idea that you go through worse scenarios and almost live them, so they should work. Could they happened? Is a little bit like to think of how you train folks on the battlefield, you're always going through a virtual, reality set ups, so that the scenario could be one that you would face then, and how to deal with it they're, not unlike that survive, evade resist escape this kind of training for folks that could be paratroopers or the like. You gotta, be able to limit a little bit in order to know how to deal with real deprivation. So I think that's a reasonable tat, jumpy blindsided don't be naive. Think about united opel, a tiny little addendum to this idea of dwelling in the future, a pre rehearsing

the Bags- and that is their non consequential say, don't want you to dwell on consequences. They want you to dwell, on the doing on the striving on the live aim, as opposed to just the outcome- and you know that's a way of reorient in your head and your thoughts. So that outcome communication? Isn't all you're thinking about its more did I do my best. Did I strive the best way was I good, not just in the sense of professionally good, the ethically good as well, and that I think, is a rat important agenda, as I say to them case scenario practice I've.

clear early on that I don't have the best memory, so I think the third practice you talk about was- and this is at the beginning of the interview- was something having to do with mental reservation. How do we do that? It's a kind of fun hedging, bass. So years really simple example: seneca gives you you wanna go out for a boat right, but you say I will go out for a boat right unless it rains. see how this little were clause. You stick in two year. Thinking and again where you're, anticipating a bad outcome Thirdly, that it might not happen sooner imagining in or getting yourself used to the idea that you might not do it. It might not work out that way and when you set out with your intentions, your plans, your strategies, your life goals. You always stick this kind of

hedging, your bed in, so that you can be agile or adaptive you're not fixed on an hour come you're fixed on rather doing your best striving putting your best effort out there as opposed to Getting the desired outcome, I will have a picnic today unless it's inclement weather, typically dont. Think about that. You think about. I wanna have a picnic or you're dealing with kids. I want or yourself. I want this to work out. Well, I wanted to be a glorious day on planning a wedding to be outdoors right now we're in a pandemic. I don't want it to reign and you're, so focused on that and say stone that outcome, the if it ray you'll be really disappointed. Your face will just go you might burst into tears and your ruin it for everyone. So rather simple thing, but it's called me

so reservation and they have it kind of inner way, sticking if closet there or an unless was this will be my plan unless that another, I think of it. His agility, adapted nest, and when I think about being resilience Think we know is the real key to resilience to be able to switch your wife goals. Your life plans a little bit if things go well certain way be able to imagine a slightly different course of action. Would go to a family or you know, if there's an unforeseen events so it's a kind of agility mental agility is really what they're out for as a mental habit practice mental agility, sometimes buddhism, is advanced common sense, and I could see how you might apply that description to stone some as well levy and done like dogs or what I think might be a light note

noticed in reading my prep doc, when my colleagues Gabrielle but together a little document for me to prepare for this interview in one of the things that I noticed in the document that caught my attention was teasing. Apparently, the stoics thought a little bit about teasing in what way the stoics are often portrayed as heavy humorless and all about stiff upper lip british style kind of stoicism. But there also.

Being able to face outcomes? Well, even though they're not the ones you want, and some of that requires a lightness. So I certainly was thinking of that when I was trying to prep my mom for her last days at age. Ninety seven- and you know he was sort of made a joke of her of mortality, wasn't going to be forever and how are we going to get through it and that, I think, is an important part of a being stoic another way of the inner. You can think about this. Is I

Think of the stoics is also creating partners in life, so it's not quite teasing or lightness, but they're really about forming a cadre. If you like fellow partners- and you can't have fellow partners unless you sort of take yourself a little lightly- you're- not the center of attention- and you view them as really sort of on your wavelength a bit so when you think about stoics as creating partners that have zest and want to live. Well, that's part of it said it was a letter writer. He was writing to his friend. Leukemia, see me never sent the letter. Spit and he's a moral tudor. Some of it can be a little hastening betty also sort of its joking around a little bit. I noticed you delete your lunch today, Maybe you should have eaten your lunch today. I mean it. Creating a social bond. I'm waiting that letter to come. I didn't we.

Did you forget to write to me sort of a reminder that this is a very human philosophy. It's also a reminder that the story you know they have emotional skin in the game there not stripping us of the emotional stuff. They know that you build social capital on many levels in one of the levels is clearly by knowing that you were comes from reason and reason is how we get connected and there the stuff of emotions in having of light sense of life is kind of a part of it. I also just on that note. I think of seneca, you know, and he is dealing with nero- is trying to meditated how he's going to do the end of his life and the end of his life in a rubens portrait he's surrounded by. france. You know he's not alone, he's not smiling.

But he's surrounded by his friends and so friendship connection, sometimes with humor. You know the way to think about being stoic, not just stiff upper lip, pull your socks up. That kind of thing Nancy, thank you so much for stoicism, one o one, just as we close here, for people who want to learn more from you. Can you please plug your books and anything else that you put out into the world that people might want to access share some of the most recent buckets wisdom, ancient lessons for modern resilience, and that will give you. I think it really easy walk through

stoicism one on one there's an earlier book stoic warriors, but I think stoke wisdom is that I've got pieces that were in the new york times the washington post, but you can find much of that on my website. Nancy sherman dot com really appreciate your time Nancy. Thank you very much. Thank you! So much dan, it's been a pleasure. thanks to nancy great, to talk to her. They show is made by samuel Johns Gabriel's ackerman, dj cashmere, justine, davy, maria foretell and Jan point with audio engineering by ultraviolet audio, as always a hearty shout out to buy a b c news. Colleagues, ryan, kesler and Josh cohen listening season, a prime members, you can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music downloading amazon, music tat today or you

and listened earlier ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go to us solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering doc slash servant.