This is the ten percent happier podcast cast andean harris hello, my fellow suffering beings, work, the show when the idea for this particular episode was pitched to me. I'll be honest, I was not enthusiastic. One of our producers, shoutout Lauren smith, I wanted me to interview the authors of a book called your brain on march, and I immediately assume that these people were gonna. Try to get me to go, the museums more often- and I don't want to go to fucking museums- I know I know- I know that disliking museums makes me a philistine or whatever, but it's my truth. What can I say, however, one of the things I ve been really trying to work out in recent years is being less dismissive. So I endeavour,

to keep an open mind as lauren made her case in one of our recent pitch meetings. We have these pitch meetings where the all staff gets together and discuss his ideas for the show, and am glad that I kept an open mind because the book is actually making a fuss. In aiding argument. The first thing to know is that the authors define art very, very broadly, the they use. The word is basically interchangeable with beauty, so it can encompass not only a death march through a huge museum, but also music dance books plays movies, tv, food architecture, gardening humming in the shower and being in nature. The second they do know is that the benefits are quite compelling art or beauty whenever word you wanna use here can help us get, learning regulating our emotions and exercising empathy. It can help,

disease and relief stress here. Some other research findings, just twenty minutes of art a day is as beneficial as exercise in my fulness working on in our project. For forty five minutes can reduce the stress hormone, cortisol and participating in one hour. Experience per month can extend, life by ten years, and the third thing to know that you don't have to be an artist per se to benefit you can be either a maker or of the holder to use the terminology of my guests. Speaking at my guess, they are ivy ross who, as the vice president of design for hardware products at google and an artist herself with work and over ten international museums and susan mag salmon, the founder and director of the international arts and mine lab centre for applied neuro aesthetics at the petersen brain science institute of the johns Hopkins university school of medicine, where she's also a faculty member in the department of normality, final

to say here is that not only did I listen to my producer lauren and agree to bring susan, and we on the show, but I also ended up liking this interview so much that we are today launching a whole series about how tuning into these, seemingly small things in your life can have outsize benefits. This is another thing aside from dismissive this that I am personally working on even for so many years of meditation. I really can I hate admitting this. I really can't find myself rushing through the day frantically ticking items off of light to do list, so this is something I am quite interested in we're calling this series mundane glory. Little phrase that I like, of course I like olympics. I came up anyway, we're gonna be following up this episode with interviews about micro. Dosing, ah, and how to arrange your personal and professional spaces to boost your happiness and productivity hope you enjoy. It hit me up on twitter or threads.

War, instagram or wherever or via the ten percent happier website ten percent dot com to. Let us know what you think. Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth. If you haven't tried, meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here is one user had to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog. The longer I the more I learn, nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process. Is life changing. That's awesome here down the ten percent happier after day, wherever you get your apps and get started for free. This oh, a sponsored by better help. Sometimes in life were faced. A tough choices in the path forward is not always clear, what did you do

era say when you come to a fork in the road. Take it not very useful, although I guess kind Why are we don't always know what the right way to go is, and I find myself in a fork in the road or places in the road where it does more than fork, and it can be really helpful to have expert advice to make better decisions. Whether you're dealing with this around your career, your relationships or anything else. There be helped. You stay connected to what you actually want, while you do your life, so you can move forward some confidence and maybe even some excitement trusting yourself to make decisions that align with your values. is like anything else in life, the more you practice it the easier it gets. I spent what about a time going over big decisions with my therapist, and I found them to be massively massively helpful if you're thinking about starting therapy give better help a trial, It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Let there

it'd be your map with better help visit, better health dot com. Slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, h e l, p e dot com, slash happier. Maybe you stayed in an air b and be before and thought yourself. This actually seem pretty global? Maybe my place could be an air be envy the could be simpler, starting with a spare room or your old place when you're a way you could be sitting on an air b and be gold mine and not even knowing I stay air being bees, So while I really enjoy it, is actually a terrific alternative to hotels, especially when I got beach vacations, when my family will have to be able to have a house more space cook for ourselves. So big fan and it really is something that many of us could take advantage

as an economic opportunity. For example, if there's a big music festival or tournament come into your city, that's a perfect opportunity to get out of town and of traffic, you can air being be your home and make a little extra money, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little bit more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think, find out much more air being be dot com, slash host ivy ross and susan meg salmon. Welcome to the show- thank you great to be here. Thank you for having us pleasure that was ivey who spoke first and Susan, who spoke second just for those of you who want to track who's. Speaking when I have to say just had to get this off my chest at the start here, I was quite sceptical when my colleague Lauren who's, the producer of this episode hitched this as a subject for us, I am not well, I heard the terms art

And the brain- and I love the brain, but I've not particularly interested in art at least narrowly defined, I'm not art secrecy. I dont go to museums, which I'm embarrassed to admit so I was a little as I said, sceptical, but then in reading the eleven page document that laurent put together for me to prep for this interview, I am completely flip. lopping here, and I really you know when I give talks. I often talk about the pantheon of no brain when it comes to human flourishing, and I include things like sleep, an exercise in meditation and therapy and medication if you need it and access to nature and perhaps most importantly relationships, but I'm now thinking I should probably be including

art as you define it. Broadly. On this list, so having said way too much at the beginning, this ostensible interview: what do you think of of all of the foregoing, ivy I'll start with you? Well, first of all, I love we love converts because I'm sure there's many people that feel the same way, but then, after reading the book have a different perspective and just like The reason we exercise and sleep is because science has drilled into our heads and has proven that that's good for us and the great thing about the project Susan I worked on, is now that science can get into your heads. Were able to prove the same thing art and when we say art we talk about the arts, so it's visual is singing it dancing seeing its there.

It's either making or beholding art. So it's very inclusive. It's the things that allow us to self express so I'll, let susan chime in on some of her thinking here, but I am thrilled and I definitely think you should add it to the repertoire Oh yes, I totally agree. I think that you should add art and aesthetic experiences to your repertoire and you already have one of them, which is nature we think of nature as one of the ultimate highest form of art. It's really We come from being in nature there. So many great stuff, is about how just fifteen minutes of nature and lowers cortisol helps you reach homeostasis, really helps you clean.

your brain and have much more cut of clarity and incite, but I ve sort of began to talk about this. In a we see. Art is a definition of looking at creative self expression, and we do that in so many ways, and I think when we limit it to sort of the strict kind of dogma of painting dancing in a pro, coming arts we limit ourselves, so things simple as humming in the shower gardening, which someone recently said, as is the slowest start, form the thinking about these very free day things that we do, that really ways of being and using the arts. One other thought is that you know indigenous cultures and their still five thousand indigenous cultures around the world. I didn't have a word for art has it how they live and it's what they do every day. in the everyday moments that make up our lives, the rituals, the traditions of the ways we use food clothing debts

dorothy telling drawing- and I think in some ways we can take a page from where we were to really think about where we're going beyond the great thing is you don't have to be good at any of these arts because many people have done some of these are works when they were kids and then stop doing it, because I it wasn't gonna be their profession. They don't think they were good at it. But the great thing here is that you don't even have to be good. There are so many questions. I want to talk about the evidence that you reference at the top that this is good for you, but you, ve caught, have taken me and a few other directions that I'd want to pursue first, let's down a definitional tip for a minute here, what is in and what is out of the art or arts bucket. From your point of view, in a word in an error that has been described as the golden age of television, for example, although with all day streaming woes, we

the exiting that era, but is watching succession, is that qualify as beholding of art. I'm writing a book bits of non fiction book and I pretty much hate every minute of it, but is my day filled with art by your definition, so interest Only the research on this has been increased what we are learning as that being in alive situation like music life performances theatre has a slightly later benefit from a neurobiological perspective. But things like television streaming video. I'm has a very strong impact and would certainly qualify as some kind I have an art form that can be beneficial as a ball holder. You know there's certainly lots of of really good examples where you're listening to the radio or you're using digital tools, Is that really bring those different types of art forms? In writing? A book writing a nonfiction book is certainly a creative act and

It may not be pleasurable all the time, but it's definitely a makers act beyond any doubt. We learn that even riding down a secret and then burning the piece of paper low, is the continent of load like it does even have to be writing that then you share with anyone, but a lot of these arts is the act of doing versus the sharing yeah. I was thinking about this, difference between makers and beholders and in a world where makers and beholders all the time just by nature, that's what we do like right now we're an improvisational conversation with you. You don't know what we're gonna say We don't know what you're going to say. I don't know what I was gonna say: ivy doesn't know what I'm gonna say, and so I think we all or listeners. We are bringing in this information as of a holder and as of a holder, there's a couple of things that I think are different than being a maker too that stand. for me. One is that we have

ability as beholders to be perspective. Taking so I can explore without risk different types of emotional ranges or different ideas or different thoughts from a storyteller whose Any information in whatever art form their choosing. I also have the ability to really emphasise and to understand something through my own lance as a maker. No one can tell you what to make it such an act of freedom. And of self expression of individuality, and that something that gives you both in introspection also an opportunity to share yourself with the world in exactly the way you want to, as I've said, good or bad isn't part of the conversation, it's not the paradigm. It's really. What is it that you're trying to express and what's the best form for you that allows you to do that you

with were quite keen to start this interview- and I guess I didn't do what you were hoping I would do, but I'm gonna put it up pretty. I hear to start this interview, or at least get to this early with the notion that art again broadly understood part of our evolutionary dna. What do you mean by that? So we have an opportunity to meet with your will the evolutionary biologist who spend a lot of time. Thinking about this, when we were researching the book and no, he talked about fact that we share an interesting phenomenon, called you social with termites anson bees, and that basically means that we are highly social. We need each other to survive to flourish as a species and why it doesn't always seem that way that proclivity to be together and to work together meant that

from the very beginning of humanity. We had to find ways to express ourselves to creatively express ourselves and so dancing singing of storage owing circling around the fire creating spaces where people lived that felt safe. So you know using space where it behind you were curbed spaces that helps you to got onto a horizon, for example, and so we no, that the evolutionary biology is quite compelling but then there is also the physiology to give you an example: you're born a hundred billion neurons and those nor and are really there for you to connect to create these neural pathways that become how you think,

how you feel how you move on, how you collaborate communicate all the things that we humans do, how we connect different physiological systems all happen, because those neural pathways are connected with multiple systems simultaneously, and it turns out that the arts and aesthetic experiences that we bring in through our senses offered most salient types of material for creating very strong neural pathways. So the songs of your youth. Think about the way that even music might affect you today. We know that there is these cascades of neural pathways that are created through strong aesthetic expense. this like nature, but also through all of these different art farms, and if you understand that at a very basic, our biological level, that lays the groundwork for how this work can be employed in physical health, mental health learning

flourishing community building, all the things that we do to be our most human and most powerful selves and as susan mentioned, we did this during tribal, is, and then I think, what's happened is we started optimizing for productivity since the industrial revolution and we pushed the arts aside thinking their productivity would make us happy. And it's clear as a society where not happy. For the most part, your mental health is at a high vs physical health. You know, there's a quote that we have in the book from jill, Bolte, taylor and says we think we're thinking beings that feel but were actually feeling beings and think and when you think about that, it turns everything. Sit down there inside out, in that our sensory systems are what makes us human and that we are first and foremost feel

in beings that in evolution have recently been able to think, but we think that we're thinking beings, we kind of really cherish the cognitive mind. We're taking this position that it is critical that we understand how the arts and aesthetic experience ignite our sensory systems which are core to being a human and a happy human and foundational. I think really foundational for these areas. Our lives like physical health and disease states like mental health in all the various in ways that that manifest from stress to serious mental illness, from really being a better learner and in a learning is thing that I think we talk a lot about, but we really usually relic learning to education systems, which are the same thing just as a signal to the listener here, ivy and susan have mentioned a lot of things that I'm sure have pick your curiosity

I'm making notes of their men. Do I will follow these threads throughout this conversation, including there actions of learning and their repeated mentions of the scientific evidence which will dive into coming up, but you staying with the threat of the conversationalist thread as its flowing in my own mind, one things that I heard there was use social reality. That's eu who sociology meaning good sociology and it seems to tie back to something in my pantheon of no bread years, and I usually end the list with this, and you know the list expands and contracts depending on world talking too, but I usually say that the most important lever. According the data I seen for a human being to pull me when it comes to their own happiness, is the quality of their relationships and it seems like arts fit very firmly into that, or are very strongly related to that wired right, to our dna. That's a great point. I love

Well, your idea of the pantheon of no brainers people say to us when they've read the book or when we've talked about some of the content in the book that it really sort of makes what they have felt visible, and so it's singer and I think that the sort of ties into that. That is what makes a lot of sense that the arts would be incredibly important for this idea socializing and relationship and connectivity. I want to tell you a story that may be will illustrate this a little bit. I'm a twin and when I was twelve years old, my sister had a very serious accident. She almost lost her leg and she was so traumatized that she couldn't talk about what happened and if you know anything about twins, you know that we finish each other sentences. My stomach hurts she's getting her appendix out right, you're, very, very close, when this trauma happened to her. I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was and she could

share where she was so startled to draw up and she started creating these illustrations and ways of bringing out what was really stop deep inside of her, and I was unable to see what she was feeling through her artwork and she was able to get back in touch with herself and so no at a very intimate level, something as simple as a child's drawling really allowed me and my sister to be able to have a connection that was so important for our lifeblood in it we are born in relationship and when you camping relationship with someone like that, it's really hard. I think that's true, all of us, though you know we want to understand the other. We want to share what were feeling an art, whether its visual arts, singing dancing innocent necessary as something that were also wired for so you see it in my king bans, are you see it in gospel? Quires are choruses where-

we synchronize with each other. You know it makes me think of the birds, the the starlings that move emergence with each other humans also have that capacity in that desire to be in relationship to move with each other, and so the arts are sort of a natural. evolutionary way that that happens and, as I already said, I think some Now we have less that on the sidelines we ve optimized out of it. We thought it a luxury that we come back to it. If we had time but is actually are essence and it's part of what makes us most hole and most healthy, and I agree with the relationship with the end of the day- is all there is to each other to ourselves. to the natural world is one hundred percent. Susan's says even when there are no words for things. The arts allow you to make the connection with the other ambled yourself,

The way I mean the arts, or a great way of marrying, backed yourself, how you're feeling, when you don't even know- and you Susan, talked about the trauma of her sister and the damage to her leg, but we have micro, traumas, every day like little micro trauma is one on top of the other that we just suppress and at a certain point that gets too much and the arts, if we can do a little bit each day, is way of timely leasing, those traumas, so it never gets to a place where it has to explode or create depression. It does get me thinking, though, about some of the more solitary artistic beholding experiences like watching tv or maybe playing video games. Although some video games do have a community aspect to them, and my son, whose aim plays a lot of roadblocks and there's a lot of chatting in that, but but nonetheless he's on his own. I wonder: is that less powerful, then being in a chorus

or anything else. That would be truly the community versions of art. We talk about something called the aesthetic mindset that sort of frames, this idea of an aesthetic diet or sort of aesthetic literacy. If, if you will- and I'm going to briefly, say what those four things are and then kind of come into what you're, sharing with the your sons, activities or other kinds of more solitary activities of the first thing in an aesthetic mindset. Is this idea of curiosity bringing yours Often too, are beginners mind where your open to new experiences and I need know, what's on the other side of the hill and being really really interested and wondering about things. So that's it. That's a mindset. The second is playful exploration being able to do things without unintended outcome, but without judgment or criticism. The third is this

if sensorial stimulation and being really aware of your senses around you all of them and then the last is in in and out of being a maker and a holder? So when europe video games, and you are in strong narrative with a very visual, you you're being immersed into that experience. That's a certain kind of a static mindset and a steady growth that can give you introspection. It can also give you distraction it can give you a sense, it's agency, but I think the most important thing to remember is the diet of those things. So, if you're only doing that, you're only really expanding your capacity in one way where of yours some video games are doing some reading you're doing some, maybe it's working each or maybe you're doing some kind of Nicole motor experience. I dancing you're kind of

creating different types of arts based habits that become your life, and so I its everything in moderation. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say is that you want to make sure that you are experiencing lots of different things, because the ways that you're bringing in the world are changing those neural pathways in creating new neural pathways in pruning neural pathways that are already there. So it's really using those aesthetic mindsets too to think about how you move throughout your day and an ultimately right for life. Maybe Susan. What you're saying is it's a kind of cross meaning like when we exercise, we do lots of kinds of exercise. When I meditated, I do lots of kinds of meditation, archer really import. But if knitting is the only thing you ever doing, you're not going the theatre, your near, never at an old joining a chorus or whatever than you are kind. limiting yourself here, there's a range of emotional experiences

and physiologically experiences that really make up the human diaspora, and so you want to make sure that you are experiencing all of those things and of sudden dear of enhancing recently, I don't know if you saw that play for while at the same time bench passive, wrote the lyrics for both of those there are hugely different experiences, and so the range of human emotions. Are so huge you want offer those two yourself to be able to experience those, and you want to try it new experiences. Cosette Susan says with neuro plasticity your car, really making new snaps connections and prudent. out the old, so you want to keep him we need new experiences so that your brain will prune out the old making room for new connections,

coming up susan mag, salmon and ivy ross talk about the importance of infusing play in not being judgmental when you're, making art how art can be a form of meditation mindfulness and how artistic experiences can extend. Your life help treat disease and relieve stress the. Add blocking is on the rise and audiences are getting harder to reach so to cut through both brands, throw privacy out the window and ramp up online tracking, but rave offers a new approach, one we're privacy, and It's come together, rave users choose when and where they see brave adds the result. Industry leading add, engaged with brave. You can drive traffic sales and product awareness without violating

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My doctor or nurse practitioner who will give you a personalized treatment plant with any necessary prescription. Amazon clinic is virtual healthcare that fits into your life. So you can get back to being. You head to clinic dot, amazon, dot com, slash happier to get started. I ve. Let me stay with you for a second, because you said something that I think is extremely in Rising to me at least, that we post the industrial revolution culturally, there's this major emphasis on productivity optimization. I feel that has only celebrated of late- and I feel it in my own mind- really prominently this desire to maximize optimize every moment. Am I doing something that checks some sort,

box and I'm wondering, is there a way to co, walked this wiring because it's there and it's a very powerful habit pattern in many of our minds. Is it possible to co op that in service of getting people to either behold or make more often. In other words, if I can think to myself, oh yeah every day, I do my exercise but try to get enough sleeve, do x, amount of meditation. I need my again broadly defined arts time. Could we co opt that mental trend to a positive outcome here? That's absolutely what we have to do, because your point we did so outcome driven because of productivity were literally digging those neural pathways deeper and deeper and deeper, they are true the harder they are to get rid of, and so you have to actively make the decision that says I'm going to do. This is really good for me, twenty minutes a day

taking a lump of clay, no expectations, because, by the way the opposite of play, people think is work. It's not it's depression because your brain needs to do things. But there's no preconceived expectation, and so that's what a lot of these arts do without judgment, I'm going to take a paintbrush and just start slapping paint on it. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't well, it looks like, but to dig ourselves out of where we ve gotten to as a society and dug those neural pathways. All about checking the list optimist. nation productivity? Everything has a reason for doing. We must start playing and we must stop playing with different art forms. You're, absolutely right and that's why were excited and wanted to write this book for the masses to explain that and to absolutely put it on the lists of the things that you do

sharon's salzburg who is big in meditation moving, we interviewed her. We interviewed by a hundred people for the book, and she says the art is the best form of meditation and when you think about it, it is getting yourself in that state of mind kind of down the rather hole of out of your cognitive mind and just focusing on something else entirely. How is that water color dripping on the page. You know: how is that lump of clay? What form am I making? So it's a great form of meditation, actually art, so you, you might want. A few short of time, combined those two on your checklist or and interestingly, its counter to the irony is that when who are in these other states of my and when you are in slow states when you are

in a lower in your court. As all when you're doodling in that distracted state, it turns out that you actually are ultimately more creative, You are more relaxed, you are more innovative, and so it turns out that when you have these experiences, the are alive on. It is significantly greater and there's been some really wonderful studies to look at that, and if that's not enough, what we see in some of the epidemiology studies. Is that one or more art experiences a month can extend your life by ten years. So If you really need a reason, I think that that does it just shout out a couple of former guests who have talked about this stuff. A lot Alex sir John came pang, who wrote a book called rest that had a huge impression on me

will put a link to it to his interview in the show, notes and also catherine price, whose good friend of mine and wrote a book about play. It also gave a great ted talk about play, will put links to her episodes and also to her tat taught in the shown us. The people want to go deeper, but back to productivity, I can imagine you know I've. I've sometimes joke that. Have this mystical, billowy to channel the thoughts of my listeners, which is only partially bullshit but I can imagine some listeners thinking. Ok, I get it. You know you ve, given me tidbits of the area but it's very compelling, and also I I can interpret back into my life and see how I've been running on these to do instead of actually enjoying the? What limited time I have on the planet and through art, etc, etc, but it does kind feel. Like another thing I might do, who is now like shit, find time to get. This means gardening done. I think it's about perspective. In no way are we asking people to do more, but it's to be more

intentional with the things that they are doing, and I ll just give you a couple simple examples: you up in the morning, you make coffee writer, you make tee whatever you're making relieve it smell informs about seventy five percent of your emotions. so what are you bringing in when you're getting it up in the morning? What are those sensorial experiences? The light that the temperature is it the smell you get in the shower? U turn on this really warm The four million nerve endings in your skin, totally light up. Your biggest nerve is engaged if your. meaning or singing in the shower, engages your parasympathetic nervous system and so you're gonna take a shower have come one way or another right. But how do you really intentionally bring that into your life to really change the way you feel so those are just too really simple. Example:

love that a lot of us already garden a lot of us already taking walks, but we're doing them in transactional ways. And I think what ivy and I are saying is that these are transformative opportunities that you can begin to start They use we made it mentioned doodling for a moment. We know that you know sitting and doodling in a business meeting, actually makes you more attentive. You pay attention better. You actually can retain him nation and recall information better just by the active doodling? So there are certain things that I think we ve believed her true about the things that we think we want to do that are just not true. Just the point about doodling can't resist doug, you know Proponents of Zoom we're on zoom right now is: it is a great technology, but I sometimes get beat up for not wanting to be on video calls, but I listened so much better if I can be outside and nature, not in the past,

the kind of technology. Where were you looking at me and I can do to or whatever it is. I take it in so much better right right doing right now, look because like listening to you and I'm thinking, yeah. That's interesting and I like work in my way we all been so penalized for that and I think aimed in some way to that- oh we're not doing it right, and that makes it really I too want to enter into it, and I think this lack of judgment on ourselves and really just opening up the space Somebody tell us recently that they were doing ivy. You have to our date night yeah. We never expected this. Quite frankly, we wrote this book as we had information that we was important to share, but we're getting emails and linked in with stories about. Oh, my guys, after reading your book. We now do.

date night. That's art focused once a week and they're sending us pictures of what they do today. If they're in someone yesterday actually talked about, but one hundred days of art, he pre set himself up for a challenge an hour a day. One hundred days of doing this, and so it's been fantastic to see people taking it on as a challenge and having fun with it and by calling it art date. Night they're experimenting with different things: let's go to the theater, let's go by watercolor paints and just start water colouring together. I mean he's been really fun to hear these stories, people pickin stuff up that they did Fifty years ago I have had a woman that sent me love bead. She started beating and shoes. I can I, the bead when I was younger and I loved the motor activity and settled my mind, and so she started me

again and people are doing all kinds of things, so I think the way we enter it is we start from where we are and we're not prescribing. You have to do these particular things, but so too Often times you can go back to when you were a kid and reconnect to some of those aesthetic arts experiences that really touched you and that can often be a kind of a place, begin. If you think why don't where to start out on what to do, and that can be really helpful. Yes, picking up on that, I have a kid, as you know, because he showed up on the zoom call up before we started rolling and he and I play the drums together and I played the drums when I was a kid, and so now he has. This drums set his room that I play all the time I my play more than he does frankly and in that one of the few things in my life that I do with no agenda There is no productivity aspect to it. It's just because I enjoy it, that's fantastic and you

Was a drummer too? I can't believe I had a rogers set of drums. I played in all boys band and I actually started to realize that the drumming would get my heart. in resinous, with the beat and so was almost my form of meditation. But now I play african drums, and so I think that's a perfect example of an artist I'm just going in there and banging on those drums every so often would be incredible, and there has been some studies about the difference and maybe susan you could talk about that in. Playing music in an improper way verses. Reading music, I mean both are great for you, but now that we can get inside the brain, you can see different parts of the brain light up. The drumming conversation is really interesting, so there's a researcher in charles limb, whose, the university of California, san francisco and he studies, creativity, and so he has done some really interesting work with joy

as musicians putting them in an ever more I machine and first they play a peace such rehearsed, and then they play a peace that improved. And what he's found is that in the prefrontal cortex there's a part of the brain that shuts down when improving and as part of the brain that lights up when you are controlled, for perfection for getting it right and I think what is showing us really beautifully. Is that You know there are times when we need to go from interest a mastery and were very conscious of that, and there are other times where that just gets and also that you really move into what would be considered a flow state. His so now done that same study with lots of different kinds of improv vs technical abilities, he's done it with poetry and slam he's done it with character church, where people draw these like very fast sort of improv characters. Vs portraiture and it's the same part of the brain that can

gently is showing those kinds of variations, but even farming as a great example you guys drum and you can move into a flow state and you feel better. You feel good feeling in here Many in sync, we see drumming informing circles in communities where it's really building a sense of that synchronous city and that connecting us trimmings. so being used for parkinson's patients, where parkinson's patients have a problem with gate or motor movement cognition. They also tend to have problems with sleep and sometimes with mood drumming, and other kinds of musical instruments as well as stands for parkinson's patients turns out to be incredibly helpful in minimizing symptoms and in looking at things like dosing doses, the more they do at the longer they do it. They have better outcomes, and so you know we're seeing how using this physiological neurobiological. True

surround how something simple is drumming, can have such vibrations in so many different ways just go back to something you said earlier. You invoked sharon in salzburg, whose frequent flyer on the show she'd been on here many many times you very coasts, the mine, and we talk a lot about meditation on the show, so people will be familiar with her and, at the very least, familiar with meditation so I would love to have. You should have to hang a lantern on or amplify the point you are making about the fact that there are three our day, many aspects of the arts that show up in you are using the term in a sort of his actual way we're taking walks we're making coffee, but if we can use the power of I promise that we all have whether we meditate or not to tune in to the senses the sensation of walking, while you're walking that being in nature, even if you're in, de there are trees. There is the law that can be produced by the architecture around you,

the feeling of the air and your skin. So many ways to tune in to the arts, broadly d and that we may be missing? Am I am I on the right track with all of this? No you're, absolutely right. It's like a sense of radical presence. You know if you can tune into these things and just notice notice the colors notice the smell notice. What is around you that in itself will be fantastic view and is amazing way of getting the art or aesthetics dosage. to share with you on that note. In two thousand and eight in Susan. I did at the milan design, fair, an exhibition long with Google support where we show the public for the first time. They experience this idea of neuro statics, which explain in terms of how these sensorial things, some of which is touched on, is affecting our body

all the time in our mind might not be aware of it. So what we did is we collaborate with suits you ready in an architect, and we created three rooms? It was the same living room, dining room set up, but each one had a different set of colors textures artwork sent lighting. Every aesthetic aspect was different when people can to the experience, we gave them a band that they were in their hand that Susan It's a mine, lab and google worked out an algorithm that would taken the physiology of the person's body and work toward determining in which room is your body, not your mind, more at ease or less stressed, and we asked people to spend. It was called the space for being just be in each room for five minutes. It was only ten people at a time. No talking, no photos just be touched, the texture of the cow.

you could even touch the art notice, the music taken the scent after the three rooms, people gave their band to a band tendered, not a bar tender who took the data off of the ban. And, of course, we deleted it right after we shared it, and we ask the person which room did you like the best and they said number two room number three, and then we showed them through the algorithm and the data. The fact that their body like a different room, potentially Let me give Susan, I thought. Okay, this is gonna, be a problem if, at least over fifty percent of the people didn't have that disconnect. But luckily, I think was fifty eight percent, the difference between what their cognitive mind light and what their body actually felt, the most comfortable or at ease in and people would go wow

No, how could that be? Why? Why is it, and we had to explain- and there was a great exercise to tell people are body- is feeling all the time sensing taking an information, but we are so in our continent fines and not embodied often that we're not getting that information. From how our body is feeling. So I know some of the journalists were like. Oh is Google going to make a band? The people were to tell them how they are as I had not. I don't want to in a world where you have to do that. This was just an exercise to bring awareness that our body is feeling all the time, and it's time we start making that connection, which is what you are saying earlier dan about being aware- and we have the aid see over what we surround ourself with and how we tune into it and the benefits that could have by being aware certainly from an end of one perspective. I can tell you that my perceived ability to listen

to my body or, if you put it in the type of language it I don't particularly feel drawn to be might say, listen to your heart that has improved the meditation. That's, I think super interesting Researchers are starting to see this idea of embodied cognition of feeling that sense. Those sensory systems is really another true sense, an enemy they have as many as fifty senses, not five. We only are conscious of about five percent of what is really happening to us on insurance Osberg, I'm a big fan of hers too, and I just finished real life. I don't know if you ve had a chance to read that yet its fabulous, it's really fabulous book and in she talks a lot of this idea the unconscious and how things like men dollars. For me, it's college I that, when I put hisses scraps together on a piece of paper, I can then come back to those symbols and metaphor.

And understand what I'm feeling and that's another great example of something as simple as a man, dollar or collage angle. Coloring even stick figures help you really tap into yours. Turkey in a way that you can't sometimes do without that kind of is representation that also, at the same time, lowers anxiety levels in almost a meal. It way and- and I think so, many people are experiencing so much stress it anxiety, something as simple trawling can do that. Coming up. Susan and ivy talk about how the arts affect the way we learned the emerging

What of neuro arts and neuro aesthetics? How food fits into the arts category simple ways to integrate the arts into your daily life technologies, relationship to the arts and the importance of architecture and your physical space as a form of art. The. Audible lets you into a all your audio entertainment in one arab you'll, always find the best of what you love for something new to discover: you'll discovered thousands of podcast from popular favourites to exclusive new series guided wellness pro I'm theatrical performances, comedy and exclusive audible, originals for top celebrities, renowned experts and exciting voices in audio, as

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Conversation can you say more about like what art does to our brains and in the rest of our bodies, so We do know that art and aesthetic experiences alter complex physiological networks of interconnected systems, so when I say that what I mean is neuronal systems. We ve talked a little bit about that, but also psychological systems are its effect. Our immune and endocrine system, circulatory systems, respiratory systems and also, interestingly, higher in systems like cognition, reward and motor systems, and we know oh, that at a very sort of duration level, the neurobiology of different arts for different reasons, emotional learning, you probably talk before Show about executive function, but also increasing synapses and even increasing brain mass. So there's a great study several, but one study that comes to mind is a study that was done with use,

and children, and these are children who just reading music and playing music. So it's not necessarily proficient or have mastery, but this work that was done with an ever more. I study a five year. Longitudinal study university, something california, and what they have found is that brain structure actually changes and synaptic connection increase it. So the studies are pretty definitive in showing that the arts, in this case it's music- but it's also been seen in other art forms- are literally changing how fast the brain is working, how synapses are really increasing connections but also how the shape and size so the brain is changing in the speaks to learning we're talking about learning earlier. You want to have experiences where

you're having those kinds of substantive changes, I'll just take off a few other bullet points that I found interesting. Some of these may have already been mentioned. Just twenty minutes of our today is as beneficial at exercise in my fulness working on in our project. For forty five minutes can reduce the stress hormone, cortisol to extend your life by ten years, as mentioned earlier, participate in one art experienced per month. So it's it's quite compelling stuff. and you know I sometimes explain this field as the elephant in the room where, depending upon where you touch it, so your touching it for parkinson's, there's, a certain art form and research you're, looking at alzheimer's and singing there's a lot work is being done with both e g half an hour. I looking at autobiographical music and what's happening in them and where the brain is has actually distributed. This highly salient autobiographical experience outside of the hippocampus into the auditory cortex into the olympics,

and to other parts of the brain. Where someone who has lost their hippocampus, the ability to use that memory holder can still pull up. A song can still become very present so depending upon what you're looking at. once you understand this core neurobiological foundation of how the arts are wired through neuro plasticity. Start to look at any number of outcomes. Feathers physic, health, mental health learning etc, and I think that's where it really becomes interesting and there's a whole new field, emerging called neuro arts, which is using this neuro, aesthetic, research and expanding it. An age has been funding, something called them sound health network, which is funding research in right now

zack and sound, and really developing very strong protocols and research tools and I'll come measures so we're seeing at the united states, but in other countries There's a lot more prescribing of the arts for many many different purposes where public health is actually paying for doctors to rent a prescription for people to go to a museum to be able work with cognition or stroke recovery or prescribing dance and so were seeing the show up. Literally all over the world, one of the most fascinating studies that in writing this book we came and was a woman and susan tell me more about her at mit, who is using sound and lie which are art forms specifically, forty hurts of sound with a combination of light too help in dementia and alzheimer's in terms of actually the combination of that sound and light sequence will

literally clean, the brain or activate something cleans. The brain of some of its plaque, and they're having amazing results, we're just food fit in all of this. I never do they spoke quite rudely. he eating some oatmeal and berries. While we're doing this conversation, because my day has gotten out of my control of it, where it is food fit into the arts, if at all our totally totally- and I had this debate with our colleague about whether food was an art form and issues like it's. Just not an art form its just it's something that you have I have for survival, and I said exactly exactly: food is an art form that you need for survival. Me taste start our taste buds turnover every thirty two sixty days right and is also taste, is one of the last senses that billy us towards the end of our lives, which is also really fascinating. Sugar, in particular, the sweet taste of life, is one of the last things that we have towards the end of our life. We know that when people

Together, they tend to be more agreeable. They tend to be able to collaborate better. I am so. This idea of breaking bread there's been some really wonderful studies. Looking at that, also that the different ways that food reinforces culture, so one of the things ivy and I talk about is in food falls in this category- is art, creates culture, culture creates community and community, creates humanity, and food is so important, for developing rituals and traditions and because regionally and culturally food is so you need to We are for our identity, it's really fundamental for how we about that in all the things we do throughout the day. In the book in the community chapter we talked about corn.

And the many many ways that corn is used in the hopi tribe, whether that's for birth, for death rituals, for substance for sacred ceremonies and corn became an is such an important life sustaining symbol, but also by sustaining food. So yeah totally, and I think it's really important jack cooking itself is absolutely an art form, I think of it. Sometimes making a soup dislike, making a painting right. You you decide you ve agency, over what you put in it? So both the act of cooking and the active as susan said eating together is an art form. What, if I'm just mindful as I eat, my strawberry, that's fantastic as well I have a, I have a little video of a grandson whose one year old and daughter made a video of him tasting a strawberry for the first time, and that video is,

extraordinary he's like the poster child for neuro aesthetics, because you watch his face every muscle in his face change, as he just starts to taste the strawberry than he pulls it out kind looks like what is this thing, squishes in it. You know so it's touch, taste smells it, and so sometimes, if I'm bored in corporate meeting at work. I have this video. I watch of him eating a strawberry under my desk and I immediately get fully present, but video sound amazing. We touched on this a little bit, but let's is really hit it again before we run out of time for people who are compelled- and I suspect that's most- if not all- of us waters and simple ways to integrate all that you ve learned into our lives daily basis. Well, I have to say right now: I'm salivating over your strawberry. I think it's really about appreciating.

things that are in your life right now, starting with where you are and in bringing these acts of art in two your everyday life and that's thinking about things as simple as the centuries things that around you. So I mentioned how you home in the shower, how you might sing in your car, My husband, I dance every friday night almost without fail, and we laugh it's just so much fun. Making meals together, thinking about the way different herbs or ingredients smell how they come together in a scent is one of those believe ugly, a motive, sensory systems, so it pulls back memories. so miserably, and so really thinking about that, we know mom's with postponing depression, our singing and humming and feeling better people doodling. We talked about dueling colouring colliding, although things that you can

everyday, getting out a nature, even just looking up in the sky and just appreciating cloud watching, there's a great term, I love called paranoia, which is the way that you make images out of things that are really there so seeing faces in the election. soccer images in clouds all of those ways that you can really tapping. To the world around you really easy to do, and you're you're moving your day anyway. So how do you make it feel more alive and enriched and anything this summit very simple ways to do that. So and then I want to say and or be intentional about carving out that twenty minutes or thirty minutes a day to experiment with either pick up. Some art form that used to do as a killer is not held and stopped because you were told you were not good at it. Sir Henry

and said he would go into nursery schools whose an artist everyone's hand would go up by the time he got a third or fourth grade no one's hand would go up, and so because someone judged what we were doing, and so we just put it aside so pick up something the eu to do or do some of our readers are doing, create an art date night. The intentional thou carving out, as you meant in the earlier dan, just like we do exercise, etc and say I'm gonna have some fun with this no expectations and by a colouring book, listen to music, get some clay, try to pay and you could move through these different art forms and as long as you have no judgment it becomes play, it becomes total play and fund. He reminded me ivy that we talk about this in the book, but reading poetry, lights up, some of the same parts of the brain is listening to music

It also stimulates the brains, primary reward, circuitry clay, yarn soil. All these things where your hands are stimuli eating your skin and nerve endings. They ignite an entire internal sensory receptors that are part of the semantics sensory system and they actually help you become more attentive, unfocused and so the benefits of these kinds of activities have very strong physiological and psychological outcome response, and so I think, is sort of feeling your way through. That is also really interesting, and I want to say I'm not here to talk about technology, but I do want to say, as your text energy, move more into our lives. I think some of the things we are talking about are so important for us to amplify those sent three systems that we humans have, and this ability to creatively express,

Gonna become more and more important as the world changes, and that brings me back to what can europe talking about with one of your no brainer switches relationship, how we build strong, creative, innovative, spontaneous relationships with each other. I think, is such an important part of this work as well: you said you were here to talk about technology ivy, but I that is kind of where I now want to end this, which is your argument that were on the verge of a shift where these benefits of the arts of narrow that x become more widely available, and I would imagine technologies, part of that. What is in some ways in the sense that dissemination and scaling texts, budget provides that way beyond anything we ve ever known also

and the interventions, some of these medical interventions and mental health interventions and even learning interventions are using virtual reality and other kinds of bio, metrics and biomarkers. For the actual intervention themselves and that's pretty great, and then the diagnostic side in the research side technologies actually allowing us to get inside our heads, but also the biomarkers that we can use to help understand with some of these aesthetic, its experiences are doing and how we can think about things like dosing dosage and so technology and service to humanity is really what we are talking about. think. There's many ways at that's: allowing us to expand this work with technology. Could technology is a tool I may as a tool for us to work with, and it has

done some amazing things, even in terms of us being able to. If you want to try to water color, you could on the internet, finds a class you could take on water color everything from that to, as susan said, actually helping in mental and physical interventions, and maybe you have a year or so good. At this you know these are immersive exp area says that are being developed, highly sensorial, immersive experiences that are incorporating arts and aesthetics and technology or popping up all over the world, and you you ve, probably saw the Van gogh work where you walked into a van gogh painting, but that's accelerating- and I think that's also helping to amplify some of our sincere, experiences and I ve met when I talk about some of that, I think is no accident that this new art form of immersive art is happening where you do walk into,

painting, instead of looking at it or we've, had some experiences lately, where you'll come into a space, and you see sound and adhere color for fifteen minutes and eyes open experience and you walk out of there and you are radically present because by being in these sensorial experiences that we ve never had before are forced to get out of our call to mind and I think we're searching as a species for these, is to have those experiences so People are doing that through psychedelics, but there are plenty of other ways through these experiences that we're talking about these immersive art experiences, where you can light up similar places in the brain and walk out with a different, fresh perspective on life. So I think we have a chapter at the end of the book called

he ordered the future, and we talk a little bit about this. I think we're gonna see more of these physical. gimme a our view, are but physical. Real world experiences and a lot of visas. aims are now very much showing these immersive exhibits before. Let you go just want to get to the two questions I habitual ask one is: is there something I should have asked but didn't? Well, I was going to raise that we have a chapter in the book about flourishing, and I think it's worth spending a moment on that we ve talked about mental health. We talked about physical health, we ve talked about learning, but I think that at the core of what I ve I are sharing, is that We want more than to cope, rightly want more than to survive as a species we want to flourish, and I think that there are attributes to flourish like curiosity and wonder: building the muscle for ah and fur enriched environments, creativity, novelty and

cries and ritual coming at a covered. I think we all sort of felt like we were sure, am ably all still feel this way that we weren't really sure what the future was going to hold. But I think we all can agree that we want to flourish. Not gestures, Five and a lot of work comes back to that. say the one thing that we didn't mention I would love to mention, is architecture and designing space is an art form and one of the places where again we kind of gun a little awry, designing our spaces for efficiency. Verses designing them, because you know you change the space and you change the way you think, and you change the way you feel, and I think we have to get back to the place. In ancient times, architects used to be doctors and philosophy,

is because they had to understand how the decisions that were being made, how tall as the ceiling do. I have light or windows how that's going to affect the people there inside. So it's just say something I want the bring up, because we, as eel wilson, pointed out to us Ninety nine point, eight percent of the time we ve been on the planet as humans. We have been in nature. Its only like point wondered two percent of our time here that we ve lived in the built environment and we need to get more conscious about the spaces that we are creating, both for the individual and for our communities in terms of its schools? Public housing from or of a neuro aesthetic perspective that means trend fighting research with practice practitioners so that we endorse and how to bring that together and that field

translational research, where you're bringing highly interdisciplinary teams together to work together is happening with space, so thinking about green space, nature but I'll, so: physical built environments and all those different locations- and that's where the action is is bringing all of these fields together to solve. Intractable problems could be this issue of. You know how you can organize your space so that your mental health is improved. It's a big and rich one and just to say we're going to pair this episode with an interview with Ingrid fidel Lee, who wrote a book about just this so more to come on this particular aspect before I let you both go. Can you please wesley plug your book. In anything else you ve put out into the world. They want people to know about, sir well. The book is called your brain on art, how the arts transform us and we have a website w w w dot your brain on art, thou com, which we

post and share stories, and we have a place where we'd love to hear your stories. We also are on instagram is your brain on art book on instagram we are really interested in making this dialogue is. Susan said this is a new field, the sign his neuro aesthetics, the field is neuro arts and the field is taking off kind of action in terms of both gathering research, funding, working all around the world to build community. I would just add that no, we think that we are standing on the verge of a cultural shift where the arts are delivering potent accessible and proven health and wellbeing solution, to billions of people, and I ve mentioned neuro art. I would say if people are interested in the field You can go to neuro arts blueprint, dot, org

and they can learn a lot more about this blueprint. That is really a five year plan to create the tentpoles to really lift this field up, and it's very exciting. It's a really exciting time to be an artist and arts practitioner or researcher interested in this work and people with lived experience who are all coming together to make this happen or just a human that wants to be more human. More happy human well said great to spend time with you. Both. Thank you for your work and thanks for coming on Thank you for having us. Thank you thanks again to susan mac salmon, and I be Ross thanks to you for listening. Ten percent happier is produced by Lauren smith. By the way, Lauren Smith is the one who pitched this episode shout out again to Lauren our compatriots also include Gabrielle sacrament jesting davy in terror, Anderson, DJ cashmeres, our c producer moorish Schneiderman is our senior editor and kimi Rachael is our executive producer scoring and mixing by

Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio and we get our theme music from nick thorburn of the great ban. Islands will see you on Wednesday. Four part, two of our mundane glory series we're going to talk to ingrid fatality, Lee. the designer and offer. We got a whole book about the hidden influence of our surroundings, our happiness, a prime members. You can listen to temper and happier early and ad free on amazon, music downloading amazon music app today or you can listen early and ad free with one repurpose in apple podcasts. Before you go. Do us a solid Tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering. Dot com. Slash servant, academy is a new scripted podcast, the fellows aver richards, a brilliant scholarships student.

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