It's the ten percent happier your podcast on your host dan Harris hello, my fellow suffering beings, have we done as somebody who can ten toward selfishness. I have long wrestled with how to balance my desire for self gratification. With my feeling that, if I'm a good person, I ought to have compassion for other people. In other words, how do I balance my own self interest with the other people's interests? So we're gonna talk about that today and we're actually going to talk about much more with two great dharmu teachers, jack cornfield, as a legendary old school buddhist, heavyweight and young people low. A k, diego per Is a relative newcomer with a massive following on instagram where to talk to these guys

about how and why to maintain a daily meditation practice, the importance of community, the limits of our thinking minds how to handle conflict and how to love without being attached, which is a perennial question before we dive in a little bit more about these two guests, jack kornfield trained as a buddhist monk in asia, thailand, india and burma. Specifically, he holds a phd in clinical psychology and is a founding teacher of the insight, meditation society in massachusetts and spirit rock meditation center in California. He's also the author of sixteen books, which have sold more than two million copies dig up, whereas is a number one new york times best selling author was widely known on instagram, through his pen, name, young pueblo online, he has an audience of over three million people. His books are inward clarity and connection lighter and the new one the way forward.

heads up a little bit of a up optimal audio quality on jack side. Here, stick with it, though, this was a great conversation. Ten percent happier brought to you in part by amazon, prime, for whatever you're into amazon prime offers a range of services like prime video, amazon, prime, music and prime fast free shipping. I've been you in rhyme video to watch some of my favorite rock n roll documentaries and, of course, I use prime for shopping for all kinds of things. I've got a pretty gnarly, sneaker habits of private comes in, and then this is just one example of many ways that prime can make life a little richer from shopping, too remains a saving. It's on prime visit amazon, dotcom, slash, prime get more out of whatever you or into audible offers an incredible selection of audio books.

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And former guest scott galloway, the watch with Chris ryan and anti green long. The political gab fest slate new members can try audible free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dotcom, slash, ten percent. The issue is sponsored by better help. Women Harris family are pretty traditional when it comes to the giving of gifts. Ro boy, like toys, serve wigan toys. if you have my wife jewelry, although I'm sure she'd be happy without it, but I like to do it anyway. However, your family does gifts during the holidays, you get to define how you give to yourself

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directed and delivered to your door. Treatment costs thousands less than braces, plus they offer payment. Except eligible insurance and you can pay with your age. I say or ef I say with bite. You'll be smiling big at all. The holiday parties this year get eighty percent off your impression get when you use code wondering at bite dot com, that's be why t dot com be confident, be you with bite. jack kornfield and diego Perez aka yung pueblo. Welcome to the show Thank you for having us I'd, be curious, just to start with a low background on how you two even we each other bits. It seems like a fascinating may do so. bird dharmu romance a romance. I like I've got to know primarily through a collaboration that we started a couple of years ago called,

wisdom ventures, which is a venture capital fund with a few other fantastic people where we decide technology is happening. Can we get people to invest in technology that fosters mindfulness and compassion and well being so we ve gotten a number of very cool people in silicon valley, interested and investing. in great things and the egg or I've been part of that dancing When I was in the monastery, I would never have thought that I'd be doing venture capital as well, but it turns out that, in fact, some of this things that were finding investing in a really great for people. So that's part of connection that, of course, I register book so have listened to him so that I got to know you diego here. I think I'm it's been a wonderful ride with was adventures. We ve been doing it for two years and we gave ourselves it call wanted to prove that compassion is good business

and down? It may sound a little weird and a little different but arm, but we're trying it and we want to see if we can apply. Hey I'm right, livelihood to dislike investing world and hopefully inspire companies who are building their products to just do it in a more complete. In that way, so that whatever, putting out into the world. It's not increasing loneliness is not increasing depression, but it's actually been people serving them in some manner and self. I mean I've been pretty inspired by what we found out there and have a little more hope for the future than I did before this project. Will you use the term right livelihood? Some listeners might not know that buddhist term of art. Can you explain what it is yeah. I just part of the evil: noble pass arm, ass, being able to sort of eggs. In the world and make a living for yourself in your family in a way that is as harmless as possible. In a way that helps keep the mind steady and am, while you can. You now be

a household, are simultaneously make alive and also practice and take steps forward on the path of liberation, Jackie brown, but I more to add, yeah well, it just says that are lies. Really and become a place of evolution and we spend so much time. work involved a livelihood, and can we doing it away? That's both conscious that develops a set of wine from those who presents and care for one another and then actually leads us to an inner well being in an inner senses of freedom thereof. area livelihoods? What's the attention we bring, and also what's the intention to get a little bit choir and reflect and say what's my best intention. How can I use this in the best way to benefit myself and others and

been fun? Working with this group, too, is we're all like a bunch of meditated. We all come from different traditions, different backgrounds and everybody has a good amount of meditation experience, but where, like their quota quo, like public figures, but the rest of them have like the investing experience. You know the corporate experience and the things that are needed to create a strong fund. I'm curious for the two of you doing jack. You talked about attention and in engine. How did the two of you who are engaged in many worldly activities? You write books and hoped for them to be best sellers you make instagram posts and hope for lots likes. You invest in companies and hope for profit. How do you engage in these worldly activities without letting your intention get out of act like personal remuneration, fame, etc, etc

Saying that's bad. I, like both those things, but how do you hold that in some sort of dynamic tension with trying to help people? It's a beautiful question because the point of view meditation practices and to withdraw from the world or come on monastic all! Oh, that's a beautiful choice. Some people make, but it's the possibility actually to live take the activities of our life. And bring them alive through loving kindness and passion and care for yourself and others. People sometimes think that, ok, if I'm supposed to serve have to take care of everybody else, but the circle of compassion is the complete when it also includes yourself so part of act to survive, livelihood or spiritual path is not only. How do you care for your family community, but How do you do it in a way that also nourishes you're hard for supports you and those actually can come together in a beneficial way. I think that

Reality is to africa. This exact suitor by the buddha talks to buy now in one of his arm addresses two householders. How When you make money, I'll giving us percentage as Donna as guests, the song, are helping people and then other percentages for maintain your household another percentages for maintaining the future of your household. I think for me personally, as like, I come from an extremely poor background, so I have possibilities in? I have to dig it to my wife asked him. Should it take care of my mother and father and help their family members who are struggling back and ecuador so The reality is that I now in every pursued that I take that I have to do it fairly rights of the people that I'm working. Well, also gaining in some way and that gaining in a way that night like excessive or I'm not like just therefore drew in power and money, but I'm there to act, a good way and then receive in a good way, and then, with what I receive, I try to hold that has

nationally as possible and and gave I understand fully what you're talking about one with a couple of points there to amplify jack. When you said, the circle of compassion is incomplete, without compassion towards yourself and that can fit into right livelihood because it so cato make money for yourself, then we are gregarious. Animals is one psychologists has said, and we like to be he viewed through the eyes of others, and it's ok to like a little positive attention and diego? I understand from what you said that you know part of how you keep this in in check is by being generous, and that goes all the way back to the buddha and yet the mind desire greed mara, to put it

buddhist terms is a sneaky son of a bitch. So I'm just what like for me. I notice how the aid is, how easy it is for me to get caught up in my own ego, as I do all the various things I do. I actually I mention this in a recent. I I got a tattoo recently right here for my boy they f tb, o a b for the benefit of all beings to be able remember everything I'm doing should be not just you know with my heads up my ass anyway, so just curious, you know we are on same people need to go so far as to get a tattoo, but will we else. You recommend to try to keep the self gratification in its right place. Our every decades ago, when I first became friends with his teacher wronged ass died a few years ago, and one his great gifts, was that he was very self revealing missy. king and everyone go on like that took so he said would come into a wall here is very well.

Robes and beads in certain that that time, bob around us, the girl figure he sent in the first thing I would do would be to count the house see how many people book to admiring the thing. It mattered, as he described, did is that he was amused. He added interviewer about it, because ideas and to get rid of desire. Okay, I should never have desire good luck. You know I should never give your attained but to see that that's who you are that's a part of the psyche. There were built as human beings and say, oh area. There is a thank you. Thank you for trying to make me problem. Other take care of me. I appreciate that I'm actually good now just doing what I care about and this capacity that we have to step back willa. My full, loving attention liberates us. Not by getting rid of things, by remembering that we can rest in rio What matters to us. I was thinking

you like on a really sort of practical level, need item the ten everyday I even if your meditate, a few minutes or an hour. I think that's how I personally keep my feet on the ground If I'm every day reconnecting with the truth of impermanence, that's putting in the body than that house me whenever chunks of or developing, and helps just burn them away. And it's still have a lot more to be no understands devoured to let go of as an individual but being able to sit in practice and for you yourself to have confidence in a practice for those who taught you to have confidence in the way that you're practicing, then that keeps you safe. the morality that you take now killing not stealing and that in combination with your practice, it helps you just continue that slow pace locked her tone elaboration, and I feel it

the people that I work with any one of my audience. I'm ok, if I ever saw meditating, do not read what I write. It is not good anymore. He now sites like holding myself publicly accountable. You used the word practice and listeners just so you know, but for we are recording. We drew up a little many agenda of things I wanted to talk about in one of them was how to keep it up. Howdah have a practice of my fulness and compassion and actual be implemented with some regularity dig only just started On that front, you made a reference to meditating every day. A lot of people will say shit. I can't do that. What do you say to those people? I say you have to think about What got me to practice every day was then I saw a little bit of the benefits when I would go to retreats days are three days These are one day courses and I would see. Ok, I'm gaining ban from this so let me double down on this investment- feels that the biggest investor

I make my life is the time that are put on the cushion and turns from. It are absurd there, such bigger parents are not only are you mar p for more aware more conscious of the way that you acting your relationships but you're capacity expanse. So if you're, a person who likes being productive in the world than your productivity is gonna just grow, and develop, and your capacity of what you are able to do, what you're able to see your creativity expand such a me. It's like not only is making my relationship between me and myself better, but between me My wife me and my parents, and all my work and on top, I'm getting wisdom into how this universe functions and what causes me suffering. oh, I can't really give all that be now. I need to put time on the cushion so that I can do Developing. So I think about what you gain from it. And down that house me sit down everyday cause, I don't I don't want to meditate every day, but I do it.

as I know it helps the best version of me come forward. Em all add to that. There's a passage I read in scientific american, so I more or less leave that attacker, where Albert einstein said if you can drive safely while kissing a girl, you are simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. Ride at one of the things that is true as us as human beings. We can split our attention in the modern world, it's really divide and you've got your phone and you've got. You know, you're connected and all of these things in one of my teachers in the forest on a story said. Modern world looks like it's lost in thought: its lost its concern with one another with body with are so one of the first benefits of a meditation fact is. Is you come more in touch with your own body and feelings and what matters to you find a way to quiet them and a bed and open the hard, and so it's me

it's like a grim duty. Oh I have to meditate. I go to the gym. I diet. I work out. I got therapy, you know now, the next day I've got a meditate like it's going to make you some soup or whatever it's actually not a duty. It's meant to be an actor. Care, and we live in a culture. That's forgotten how we can take care of ourselves in one part of that care, even though at first it feels unfamiliar, is just to be clear. For a little god. Then there are things up we know intuitions and understandings had come for how to navigate our life or what really matters at all come on. We slow down at takes him I'm too really listen more deeply and admiral full loving attention or loving awareness is well allows us to do it. I think the through line in both of those answers was that its beneficial it can feel good and tune into that as a way to keep moving, that its debts

and get to create this cascades waterfall of benefits in your life, and that should be the onward, leading aspect of it am I refraining. There was some degree of accuracy yeah and at this in time. Of course, when you said quietly use it with all your stuff, So, if you are in the middle of being worried or your angrier, europe sat or those things. They also show themselves, but what's powerful about is it your able to learn how to be with him with kindness without credit judge yourself? four pushed him away, which is not mindfulness instead mindfulness It's a loving awareness, and then you are somewhat free from there you're not lost in it in some way, I remember my teacher argent char was leading a group of monks in the morning out with our arms all to get our food for the day and across the field there was a great big. Older, a big rock and he turned back and he said monks.

Is that bolder harry and, of course being you know, we educated- as I was- I said. Yes, it is, and he smiled and he said not have don't pick it up something in the end there that talk to about a kind of freedom that we have where we can see the way things are, but there's a great your freedom with us, full, loving awareness where, where then we can choose, do we find all of this and get lost down the rabbit hole or do we resting place it's much more spacious and gracious, as I just finish, meditating for a twenty day, and I'm wanting that kept coming up was like this field, a thought that we exist. And it's an infinite space like there are countless perceptions that you can make right. You can just keep looking at things from different perspectives,

considering them coming up with new ideas, and it's just this mass of space, but there's no freedom in it and to be able to sit on a cushion and cultivate your ability to observe to just feel to just be with what is that's a whole different capacity that is built into the mine. But it's not empower right. It doesn't have that muscle that it should be to be able to balance out there basic thought that we have in the mind and in its interesting, because really do that ability to observe that ability to feel that's. What can ultimately take you to greater and greater freedom, because a space of thought useful we've use it to build this world tat. We live in by this this very out of balance. Let me to see if I can get in there and understand a little bit what you just said. There do diego there are an infinite number of things. You could think about right, an infinite number of ways,

You could look at anything from the tree and your yard to climate change, and yet, if you're, just stuck in that band, of human awareness or consciousness. You will never actually have true perspective or freedom. It's the capacity to drop out of thinking to view things mindfully just the way you might. aware without interfering of an itch or of a body moving through space when you walk it's that ability to view things not judge mentally from as jack cornfield about like from behind the waterfall. That's where freedom lies. I think that's what yours totally had on the dot. I think you can do a lot of beautiful things, thinking and also thinking can go to an extreme where you can just build tons of stress tons of attack

man tons of anxiety through it. If you just only exists now space, but if you find like you know your ability to love your ability to feel compassion. A lot of things are felt. They happen in the present moment, whereas thinking as something that's like mostly pose you and future into the past and can oppose You are from what's happening right in front of you, so I think are if you really want to do a lot of healing alot of letting go, it has to be done through direct experience which autumn, means enhancing your ability to feel you have both said quite a bit now about the benefits of meditation. But I want to go back to the practicalities of building up a habit, because I was texting with a friend of mine, the other day she's a yoga teacher and she's very good at continuing to practice. Yoga do lots of other health thanks? But she was bemoaning to me the attacks that she would get a month of meditation under a belt and then fell

of the wagon and then another month then and fall off the wagon. She just can't really get the habit up and running in a sustainable fashion and is wondering whether all the things that both of you have said about the benefits of meditation and how, if you turn into them in the right way, they can help. You establish an abiding habit, I'm just wondering behalf whether that's gonna do the trick so jack. Let me just take it back to you. What else could we say to my friend Natasha, whose like many other people struggling to actually meditate, so it's a great question closer to really important things were talking about first, is that the mind and heart can be trained. We learn that in our education we learn reading and writing and mathematics. You know I had an ivy league education and nobody taught me about forgiveness or how to deal with by fear or anger or how to loving relationship. That was all not part of the again. I learned that when I start terminology and when I lived and trained in that

So we can learn that and it serves in every circumstance. The ones of building your life, business and the ones of work this week with. Buddy, who is in the last couple weeks of their lies in the fact that they learn to meditate, meant that they knew how to be with pain in their body or the fearful stories and be a loving witness of it not be so called it, so they could be a lot more peaceful, that's the first part. The second part is that we cannot do it alone. Then, in fact, part of the answer to your friend is we need community. That's why people gather together to meditate whether it's in a classroom retreat your online. Then in some way we really need to support one another and that's been built into certainly in the buddhist practice, but it's there everywhere in the christian. Whenever two or more gather in his name and the jewish minion and the sufi

so bad and all these things we support each other, especially when, as you say, it's hard to keep it going in society and one of the things I ve been involved in the last couple of years, also is an online community called cloud sounder dot seo clouds as a young j J, which is a sanskrit word that needs community and people meet in small groups of six people once a week and talk about their practice. What helping them la talk about their meditation. But this week my daughter, teenage daughter got really angry at me here this week I have two toddlers and I got overwhelmed years. I work with, or this week I wrote the new poems- and I realize I want do are and my meditation. Let me get quiet and do it. You know, and people share what fosters wellbeing or how they ve navigate what's difficult and because we

here about each other deep down the fact that you're gonna meet Once a week with somebody and talk about it means oak, I guess I really have to do in this area both inner shaming in their whatever but an inspiration, but we help each other I know what I said in front of a retreat, though be some days were certainly but really squarely and restless and the fact that there are other peoples, inquired the around them gives them a sense, and we can do this Now I can we do it, but we can open to us so well being that we support each other it. So I encourage people if your interested goaded cloud song, a dot ceo slash, open house, if you wanna, get a taste of these small groups, and I think that you know it's been funny. Two of his eye. I really like cannot agree jack more. I think that the times where I struggled with my own practices I feel like I've done, is in practice. I know

I need to go about it with my friends like I have to doug meditate with a bigger group of people and their I don't know like right I don't know the physics of meditation or what it what is actually technically happening, but when you're sitting by yourself, it's a wonderful thing, when you're sitting with two three. Four. Five, ten, a hundred and twenty people, it is wildly different and you can feel it and they can feel it too we have my wife, and I hear some ass. We will have dinners and invite you know a bunch of our meditatively over and that, together in our meditation room and there'll, be aid of a squeeze, this tunnel a room and are weak I know that room like while, like tat, was intense and that's just kind of housing for all of us, because we're doing it as a group- and I don't know why I'm gonna see no more. Why jack? I dunno Why it s like that, but there's something to it well were connected. You know if you put a violin on the table and

another, violin and play in this The violence on the table are gonna arrest. Today, a whole notion that were sent. Bread is one of them. others are well. We have to respect individuality. But the fact is where woven into with the rain forests. We breathe each other's breath and, as you get quiet, you feel that sets of connect an open in a way that is very different our senses separate self in isolation, and it's a blessing to feel it That reminds me of a close by judo. Crushed emerge there at a few years ago, and he can I like fun and everybody is like you, I think, you're different, but you're the same ip now we all feel sadness and then he just starts listing out all the emotions and I'm like. Oh yeah, that's right! It's like same mechanism happening for. All of us in this community tip. I mean I completely agree with you. I have this little number. I don't think I'm alone in this, but probably not in the majority. But if this little cork, where

I dont, like sitting in a meditation hall when I go on retreat, because I get self conscious and Get like performance, anxiety or ice or start swallowing a lot. I get like all this extra saliva in my mouth and I feel like I'm bugging everybody around me, so I I and sit alone, and yet the benefits I get from having friends who also meditate is immense. I I just got: an hour and a half zoom with a friend of mine who got off a month long retreat and just ok, I'm about it and seeing like all of the learning kind of only come out of his mouth as he's explaining to them, but kind of like come off of his person as he's explaining them to is obvious that he's kind of got some wisdom, in his molecules- and that is really that's. It's like the most positive kind of peer pressure. You could also just call it love that The support that were there for one another and in it when you did the notice, when you talk about your friend that there's this

and of war. That's what we share with one another. That's let's do this together. Let support each other much more from jack kornfield and diego Perez aka yung pueblo after this this holiday season, don't forget to give yourself a gift? How about treating yourself to wholesome delicious, convenient meals with butcher box, they take the guess, work out of finding high quality meat with humanely raised beef, pork, chicken, seafood and more delivered to your doorstep, but your box partners with folks who share their high standards and truly care about how animals are raised. Plus there be corp certified here. My old. We ordered tons of stuff from butcher box. We use it all the time incredibly high quality. As I said before, I don't need a lot.

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and manage your money. The easy way. By going to rocket money, dotcom, slash, happier, that's rocket money, dot, com, slash, happier, rocket money, dot, com, slash happier and don't forget. We got a ton of new meditations over on the ten percent happier app, including meditations, on chronic pain and sleep download. The ten percent have europe today, wherever you get your apps and started for free so that that kind of brings us to another thing. That was on our little agenda. We were talking about how, if you meditate you're, going to see lots of tough stuff, it's inevitable. It's actually means you're, doing it right and there's lots of great stuff and it's easy to overlook that, given that we have this evolution, airily wired negativity, bias subject? This was your suggestion on out you, the mike. Why did you want to talk about joy and well being and cause method?

nation can get confused with either a grim duty, as I said, or in some way as self improvement project that More about how I look and how I am at a real is more tuna into something that much deeper and more in aid? So there's a couple of things. I actually want to read a sort of make part of this. This is a an instruction from north to south, in six hundred years ago from them the saying live in joy and love, even abundant, who hate so listen irritation. Yes, there's hate in the world, but that The only thing that's happening: there isn't a just war and conflict. There's people making breakthrough for one another and moving aside, so you can go through the door, there's a billion acts of kindness, and so the suggestion is to enter the positive nature of human interaction, even though the others there. Let it lift you up and then let you bring it back to

there's just live in joy and health, even among those who are afflicted or in peace. Even among the trouble you can find it too anyway, and we nowhere when we have friends who have either a peaceful Are you know they're not really upset by everything in it? doesn't mean you don't care, you can actually or better or more, when you're not reacted to everything waited. They're they're gonna carrying a and then that the deeper part that happens, which we talk about a friend in new york who was dying of cancer and she writes my days or shore tomorrow angle and as I grow, we was in her last week's I experienced so much gratitude for my meditation not only the joy and ease of broad which to us, but, as you said there for the hard part, for every board arrest the sitting,

retain an egg, I sat through and every fearful, fantasy which you can imagine if cancer in your facing it in every yet. I didn't scratch was a training For kindness, a tree for the muscle forbearing witness for the trusting spirit for the gracious heart that carries me now, even as I faced My death, so that sort of an extreme situation, if you will- but tells you, as you said, yes, you said, and sometimes it's we on there's a lot of luck, and sometimes you face these other things, but you can Do it with a loving awareness. And then you realize it, I'm not that limited person who gets caught that I actually can rest in mindfulness compassion itself You tell the world, you get up there, they say, and then there are only two things. You said anne you sweep the guard It doesn't matter how big the garden, which you cried, the man and and connect with.

What really matters and then you go out in the garden. The world than you offer your guests. Your care out before he left me really I'm speechless and am grateful for that, because I think that something that we forget like a lot of these practices, when their initially tar in an attack in burma there time india time. Thailand, like the aspect of death, is a big part of them right, like in some traditions. They tell you straight up you're learning how to live so that you learn how to die. I hear stories. There's a little book called the hour dying. That was written by ever passionate, eternal clangor tradition, and it's a set of these tremendously beautiful story allow these people who were on the verge of passing away and what their death dislike and being able to hear of all of these stories of essentially of peace and of awareness of being able to accept the truth.

passing away right. Everything arises and ultimately passes away, and am I think, after reading there, but that was one of the things that really inspired me to start. meditating everyday, because yeah I'm impermanent, just like everything else, might as well learn to be aware in as much I can be throughout this life and as it ends to go back to the buddha quote from you, jack about living in joy, even though there may be haters or the unhealthy or the the uneasy around you just to be clear. As I understand it, the buddha is not sang live in denial, absolutely not love, to see things clearly and show up to sweep the garden. But you know I know, and if I go to a refugee camp they want me to come in angrier all the wrong things, people of dawn and depressed since over they don't need that.

They actually want somebody to come and say: there's possibility these even in difficult situations. What you can do here is how you can at least stay in your well being and that's an extreme circumstance, but in fact the idea is that, through our in practice, we can actually move sure the world not withdraw. from an all but care for it and as we care for it in some way We sustain our well being and was sustained the well being of others again in the buddhist tradition about as a bonus sought for us of being cruised committed to them affair of themselves and everybody else to eliminate suffer. So it's not withdrawing that's kind of a misconception that I condemn any is kind of withdrawal from the world or peaceful heart, but in fact somebody most glorious beings I've met, are both peaceful and joyful. and there are very much engaged in the world, but they do.

When will the spirit that up, let us everybody around them gave you a new book. Congratulations! Thank you. It's called the way forward. What do you mean by that the way forward, and I gave that book that title because it's that basically the combination of a trilogy, I started with inward. My first book I was a little book of short poetry, inshore prose, and then I wrote a second follow up costs, clarity, connection that was continuing person, transformation and more so about relationships, but I wrote the way forward: with the understanding that this world that we live in is constantly changing right, the conditions are changing and there's always trimming ups and downs, especially in a century that we live in, is just like. We have is huge problems ahead of us, so I wanted to create a book That was something even ground yourself fan, and I find that in my personal life, the most rely I will things that I have Arme intuitions

and my values great. So if I listen to my intuition and its leading me into place, where it's good for me and for others I'm going in the right direction, and if I maintain my values of trying to be good to myself, being kind to others remaining, service in my daily life and in the different on jobs I hold then hopefully I'll be helping people as I keep taking steps forward, and I think the way forward is just like, hopefully before a friend for people like something that they can lean on, because our work, there's not going to start changing it's not going to stop having ups and downs, so hopefully it can be a resource for reflection, and hopefully a little bit of peace has people if their days, diego, when you took my concepts like values and intuition, and it is easy for those two lapses to kind of empty bromides or cliches than people don't understands what one a very practical level woody mean by that. How do you figure out

your values our. How do you learn how to tune in to your intuition and why you ve done that out, as it actually help you here, your question, I think, as I started Taking my intuition became clear and clear, as I started the process of decommissioning the mind that, sort of sense of knowing that direction. Allergy that was coming from within, I always felt like it was come from the body from my stomach, and this may be different the people random, just explaining from myself it felt like a calm compass, right there wasn't a stress of the thoughts craving the reactive, none of the mine that, like give it to me now type energy, it wasn't quite that it was this like com like in more so look on the bigger things like armor them the times I really heard my intuition was like. Oh, you should start writing. You know you should start writing and I felt that and ignored it for like a year, but it would come up occasionally, but not with stress but just felt like with direction

the same thing when I felt like it was time to move from person to new york city was like how you nation, moved to new york city, moved to new york city and what I learned about intuition is that one is never going to ask you to do something that will herschel, but it will ask you to do things that will challenge you deeply. So I will ask you to step outside comfort zone, it will ask you to, reveal your weak points so that you can strengthen them, and I think it's generally, just something that will just push you to keep elevating to keep growing. then I think in terms of value like I really hold them. You know what ideas of sheep morality. Right, like the simple aspects of it, you know, like don't, kill dance, they all doubt lie things that arm that are sort of the foundation of being kind right, being kind to other beings being kind yourself and others end, and it feels so critical cause like at this in time that you're trying to be kind on the individual level on the collective level, theirs

so the reality that we ve been hitting out is like this world is rough and there at times where we have to take strong action, but we can do with a loving mind, we can do with a mind of not like. Oh, I hate this person. I hate this politician and we have to stop him No, I have love for this person and I completely disagree with what they're talking about and we're gonna do our best to curb their influence so that they don't hurt other people. I think this is a much wiser place to come from, I think for so much of history. A lot of our movement, a lot of our art had come from a place of reactive nests of tension of stress think this moment in time that were in where like meditation is- baloney around the world. There are so many more people meditating than ever before, probably in comparison to the time of the buddha where there, smell millions and millions people meditating? I think it's gonna create for a very different type of change maker cause. I found that meditation does now make people step out of the world that actually makes them much more active.

before, but their acting from a clearer mind, which I think creates the potential for skilful action. There is also along with way, The great question you asked you go about intuition: another waiter under stand or go out. It is the two and to your contention, and she has a really great power, and I know, for example, if it just happened, that I would get in conflict with my beloved. Wife. Truly just could happen, but anyway, therefore I learn how what you're a change me or what I'm upset about you know were to try to be defensive. Basically, if I take one or two brass sink it quiet and asked myself: what's my best intentions, and the men than I pause and asked. What's my best intention in that covers, a general or in the sit on struggling within the world almost any recently a good answerable

Well, I want this to work out or I want us to feel connected or more than and I love her. I want us to be able to be connected in love and all of a sudden, in that little more moderate dust intention the tone of my voice, changes from being defensive or aggressive to care, not just in that station. But if I'm in a meeting or refined dealing with something, in the world, and that is frustrating our difficulties. This the hard part, what's my best intention, it changes the whole current of it and better things come bout because and then, as diego saying then it can do that in a broader way and say what do I care about for the community around me? What's my best intention and then what can I offer, because we each have a particular gift, to offer. We need to change the whole world, but we each have a piece

you can reach out and men or support will be right back with jack and diego after this quick break. it's episode is brought to you by progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now: you're driving cleaning and even exercising, but what, if you could be saving money by switching to progressive drivers who save by switching save nearly seven hundred dollars on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts? Multitask right now quote today: a progressive dot com, progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates national average twelve month savings. Six hundred ninety eight dollars by new customer survey, to stay with progressive between June twenty twenty one and may twenty twenty two potential savings will vary discounts not available in all states of situations, but incredibly deep voice doesn't sell, b to b, when advertising on the wrong platform doesn't sell, be to be either that's. Why you're a b to be marketer, you should use linked and adds with linked and adds you'll be able

target over seventy million decision makers, all in one place, no deep voice required get started today, see why linked in is the place to be to be We'll even give you a one hundred dollar credit on your next campaign: go to linkedin dot com, slash results to claim your credit terms and conditions apply. Jackie talked about these highly hypothetical conflicts. You might have with your amazing wife, Trudy and I met her, and she is indeed amazing, but that does bring us to the topic of relationships and diego. I know you've written about relationships quite a bit. Let me just read something: you've written and and then ask you to hold forth on it after I finished reading it sure love you right is interrupted by the pain we carry it's easy to blame love itself for the her we feel, but all love does is open us up. The hurt itself comes from the heavy conditioning and ill fated patterns that stop us from showing up in a compassionate manner.

Yeah. I think I just to reiterate that first line love is interrupted by the pain we carry. I think a lot of what we need. as individuals across the world there's this mechanism of the mine that, whenever you are feeling something's Oh strongly. You know when you are reacting with a particular emotion. It leaves and imprint on the mind an appeal disposes, you tear seeing thing, in a certain way, in a way that you did in the past, reacting to the present, in a way that you used to and not really fully engaging with what's happening right in front of you. So when you take that idea, bring it interrelation, epps. You may have deep love for someone by if the heart remains unhealed, if a mine remains unaware that is gonna, be so easy for you're just drag passed back into the present, and I think that's what my wife and I found in the beginning of our relationship, because I love was definitely there, we loved each other, but we did

I know how to hold tat love right there zero emotional maturity between the two of us and we just didn't it. Ourselves? We were young and it wasn't until started meditating where we were both dealing with the past we carried from her childhood from teenage years from a time in college, from the way tat we We were not able to treat each other well. That has done pain as those unaware patterns started dickens shining and binding restarted, letting them go. They found that it was so much easier to with each other, so much easier to have conversations more peacefully and just sort of eggs. Missed him. You know move through the day with that bit of awareness the where we returning that lends in word so that I could see within myself, like Oh, these are the way my emotions are moving and even, though, for some reason. I'm feeling this tension inside and I want to make it my wasteful- has nothing to do with her

and sometimes surely you know I'll say something that I should apologise for. I shall say something, but we found that a lot of the time you like eighty percent are time. It's like we will just try to take these tense emotions and, make them into some type of argument that isn't really there that's like baseless and being aware of that has helped tremendously with just building harmony between the two of us. Let me just go back to the beginning of the quote: love is interrupted by the pain we carry. There's a classic rock song by a band called Nazareth. The song is called love hurts, and I think what you are saying is not the love that hurts this shit. That hurts is the shit we're erin around with us. That's interrupting the actual love right is the attachments yeah it's what we cling on tino the parts. The story, the imprint of feeling that we carry on the body, the things that we really felt that are dance they clog up the mind. They clog up our ability to

to be able to see someone as they are, as opposed to just drawing different value actions and judgments on top of them, like the space, between me and my wife was initially clogged with our perceptions of the past had to work on that and remove that in cleaning up so that I could actually see her with loving eyes. Really you sharing initiating this diego and that made me smile the loving eyes it just changes. My face, I wanna connected with the question. You been asking also all along down about our I. This is the end of it your work, but what about the collective work of society and there's this passage from I was when, where he writes I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hate and prejudice, so stubbornly is that they sense that once Haid has gone, there will be forced to deal with their own fear and pay, and we do this collectively, but just weather

intimate relationship, but we do there's a society when there are things that are too slow, married. It deal with. We tend to project and blame. We have the enemy dishwasher and it could be the immigrants or can be. The liberals are the conservatives or the people that are somehow different than us, and we pretend tat on them, because the truth is it. Human life is uncertain, as do I gotta say impermanent, my teacher call it the wisdom of uncertainty and in meditations you learn to set not by train make something you hold onto, but the sin in a war receptive place that can respond to what comes instead of to react and then you are not so called in those fears, but if we do feel that way Fraid, economically, were afraid of homelessness. Were afraid of blame were afraid that divisiveness

We get angry about, and it makes it all worse. But if we can taller, ok? This is uncertain but then tore you, life is, can irish box. with love? Can I be the source of centred on in the society and for the people around me. It should is the whole gave. You know it's funny because I'm listening to you and think about it back in and regard my relationship even collectively. It calls for better communication land to be able to communicate well, you have to know yourself to a certain degree, and there has to be this aspect of giving each other's space so that we can listen self, sleep in what I mean by listening selflessly is like I'm going to try to take in your perspective as best as possible. Without placing judgments on two issues. I want to see what is happening from your direction and then we can take turns, and- and I can tell you my perspective as my wife and I were realizing how silly the mind will be in trying to place blame on the other, even others

there is no real logical pathway to create the actual blame point. Let me she was just time. This story to a group of friends. Yeah today, where we were both working in separate rooms. Has I my laptop in the kitchen, and she was in the living room and he came in laughing because she is- she told me she was like. I just spent the last three hours trying to figure out- how this feeling I have inside of me is your fault in its now: and all I ended up doing with trying to go back in time. Further further back time, trying to figure out how this is your fault until I realize My mind is just playing with me and from there. You know, and we like, I would do the same thing that I would catch the same mechanism in the mind. So what we do now is that we are in constant contact. about where we are in our emotional spectrum? So if I wake up and unlike why she lay crap like this, is you now and if I feel down my emotions, your heavy, I know there's a bit

essential there for like the mind of the mara, whatever you want to call it to play, games with my mind and try to make havoc so if I name it and I'm like. Oh, I feel down this things passing. That is how I feel right now, I'm aware of it She is aware of it and then it makes it easier for us to sort of shit the day and give each other support and not fall into the trap as we used to and am being that have a contact on that. One on one level, I think, makes me wonder: is there a way for us to set society are so we can be like that on a more collective level, to figure out on how people can see

Are there truth than where they are in a way that everyone's perspective feels seen? I mean I think, communication skills are incredibly important and we've done quite a few episodes on that subject and we'll put some links to those older episodes, in particular, I'm thinking of an episode with the some people that I suspect, jack nos dan, clurman and moody to Lisker, who are buddhist inflected, communication coaches, who have had a incalculably positive impact on my marriage and I am the only person their training, so that has nothing to do with my wife's communication skills to be clear. So, yes, double click on communication skills being incredibly important, and I direct our listeners to those previous episode. But let me just give activist freighted word with thrown around a bunch today, which is love. I like asked this question two peoples and times so I put it to you jack. How do you

define, love. First of all, it's not something that is amenable to a simple description: it something that we know in ourselves and like gravity like gravity. Nobody, even the best is, as they can write an equation, but it's part of the mystery. Of the universe that things have tried to one another, baby love is just gravity in another, less physical form, but it's the deep connection that we have and I remember hearing archbishop due to talk about the way people communicate in africa and somebody will say. How are you are you well or not, and you is the answer it his culture. In the plural, say, we are well or we are not well and the weak. Literally said because it my mother's sack or my daughter's having a hard time or my uncle We are not well and so there's something about failing that we actually

not only in this together. We are together and it's that openness. Now it also connects with the their peace than I was saying them about. The way in the world how much we project the enemy or someone different. Third, the opposite. When there is so much fear and divisiveness, underneath all that, just because we care If you care you wouldn't get real thou or you wouldn't be afraid Persevere, you wouldn't be angry and so forth and under that hinder under that fear, and so forth is the fact that it matters to you that there is a place of care and this care cobwebs. You don't have to think about if your hand touches thought stone, you just pull away, will it's our hand? It's our bodies in its are it's our society in some way in africa.

all that he knew the things that roil us all to use. Diego's words, underneath we can feel instead of focusing on that focused on how much we actually do care we communicate that. Maybe that is what love is. That's beautiful. I've been thinking about this too, and it's funny that the mind seems too shelly, work from a place of self re, experiencing sort of self oriented, and am when you put the mind through a decommissioning process, and you start meditating and you build awareness, you build was Some you gain inside the true sovereign permanence of misery of no self. What ends up happening on a pretty. Why level is that the ego gets thinner. and automatically love, starts developing and, something about like this inverse relationship between ego and love, where the ego gets. Smaller

smaller and smaller, and the love in your mind, it's brighter and brighter and brighter, and that love comes with a quality of selflessness were but to look at others? Look at our own thing. You know. How can I help you without listen, wanting something in return, and now I'm not talking about going into extremes, re like the human mind, my sway from extreme to extremes on that not like. Oh you I'm a martyr and you're just like costly helping people in a you exhaust yourselves and burn out. Now, I'm not saying that I'm just saying that there's more space for love in the mind, as the ego decreases, and I think just like carries its lightness. This selflessness, like jack, said this care and it puts it all into action is now just a feeling, its literally an inner movement. that will help you act skilfully, income nationally in the world, and I think, when you know will wonder like what happens like would have the people who like make so much progress and have meditated for some

time and have reached high levels of development. the other not living from a place of ego, but the mines sits on compassion ran. It is thinking from a space of compassion, and I think I think that's beautiful one. That's tricky by talking about love within a buddhist content, next is that the poorest also talk about non attachment and how do you hold love which a lot of us think about as non negotiable e definition early, including some attachment I'm attached to my son of attached to my wife? How can I love them and yet be non attached like a good buddhist should be? I mean it's a great question. it's: u can experiment with it with your children. If you want them to be a certain way, I want them to behave this way. I want them to not do this and to do that and new attached to her. they should be or how they are, they feel it and they feel it as a pressure and at those

feel that greater than away way sort of sets you a little at odds with each other another way of being with that child, instead of how they're supposed to be is the love that says I want you to be the best you can be. I want you to blossom, because I love you, I want you grow in these ways, and so the law is really tuned into the well being of them. Person rather than how we think things should be and when you noticed that you start to see how the more attachment the more struggle and suffering without the attachment, there's still his profound care, but the care is there without the holding on your ideas and you're trying to manipulate- and I mean to in your marriage in your family children feel it. You know if you're trying to make it a certain way, rather than loving them as they are and saint years how I can support what do you need, or whatever it's a very, very different channels and then more deeply

hu. We are a giggle points to this when you, or who you are is awareness is consciousness, loving awareness when a baby come most of the time their held with love this is an amazing thing. Here's a whole other human being amended one dies and you have the privilege of being with them as they die there. Just you hold their hand and all that's left is field of love. I love you and so forth. However, in between we go through all these things, but underneath we actually are human beings with consciousness, and we now from the very beginning this. Can she's in love, and then we navigate as we do, the more attachment, the more fear and confusion upholding the more we suffer and the less the more. Instead, it becomes care the more gracious we become I couldn't agree: marthy jack. I think you to stay ahead on the died. His ass miss

like how do we hold the relationship? If there are no attachments railing, how do we hold it? How do we take care of it and if attachments are constraints and control? then the way that we hold our love for each other is commitments right and we're talking, especially between two adults at second, for starting a relationship when you hear honest and open and vocal about these, are the same that I would like in the relationship and a fighting come to them, I will voluntarily commit right. There's no co sure. There's no like you I have to do this or there's like an ultimatum, it's more so like. Yes, I can commit to x Y z. This feels good for me and it's coming You know I'm hearing you and I feel that within my capacity I can do this for you and I am, I think, coming from a place where These commitments are voluntary and you find out

sort of middle ground for the both of you. That really feels genuinely good. Then I think that such a beautiful place to exist within a relationship, because then everybody feels heard and safe as opposed to coerced another way. I've heard this disgust and its addresses a bit of a different issue than what you guys have been dwelling on, some people will I've heard them, say the buddhist teachers or to me well you're telling me I should be non attached, but it does that mean. I shouldn't love my wife for my child and one of the ways I've heard this described in both of you probably heard this nine times is it's like the difference between, if you're holding something in your hand with clenched fist or holding it with an open hand and its resting on your palm you're, still a connected to the thing in your hand, you're just not grasping absolutely You also can't receive with a close hand right, so I guess you're just gripping on and trying to hang on to everything. You yourself are missing so much.

if we really trying to love to give and to receive, you have to have an open hand, this has been a pleasure gentleman. Is there something I should have asked but didn't their places? You wanted to go that I didn't as I have a question for you is that if they sure I'm curious It did to your mind when you chose to step away from tv like to that effect your meditation, and how does that mean when you're, when you're meditating was their point of ego. Was it just looking for other things? grab onto or yellow like I'm curious about that, because I I remember one out and when you and I met thing in a twenty eighteen we did our our first podcast together, you seem different and a good way. Now that you are bad before your grave far, but am I got a second slightly different guy? Isn't it you think so. You you're wondering if, like between twenty eighteen and now, if these changes whatever it is, you

saving might be linked, first and foremost, to stepping away from tv news. yeah and also how the impact of your meditation, you know not being seen by so many people all the time why. I should think two things there I'll try to answer back. One is that in two thousand and eighteen the year you met me, I had a major event in my life, which was, I got a three. The review that I have probably mentioned on the show before definitely mentioned on the ship. For this the kicking off point for the next book, I'm writing, which were is where I did an anonymous survey of the people in my life, but my strengths and weaknesses. I remember any of this transport, I sure, as shit member the weaknesses, and there were many and that really had a huge impact on me and got me more into loving kindness, meditations passivity, which has had a huge at? I did a little bit of it, but it was a little. It was kind of like a contemplative side dish it, but for a law-

tie my over many years. I moved into doing it as my primary practice and now it's still central, but not the only thing I do- and I think that's had a huge impact and I think, stepping away from the news has been good for my life and for my meditation practice, because I'm, u no less exhausted less old in some need directions, but in terms of what's happening. In my mind, visa veto. Looking for affirmation and attention that still, oh there, that is definitely still there. That's the thing I really have to talk to me, that's partly Y got the tattoo. We talk about this later. You know washing my hands or from on an exercise bike or on Monday phone. I looked out and see this reminder: hey asshole, you know stop thinking about yourself. Only! That's! Never! That's not don't think let yourself ever, but let's get some rest,

active here and by the way, don't call yourself asshole, because that's too dismissive and mean- and so all of that will come up in my mind, because I'm looking at the tattoo yeah I dunno. If that fully answered your question, but that's what came to mind totally thank your yeah. Thank you for being on vulnerable and honest ethical happy for you, and you can always say dear ass. All you can have one more thing, alot of appreciation for the ten percent happier. The neighbour the podcast in your work and your book and so forth that you actually emphasised happiness, whatever percentage over how we make sure that the great poet jacket set up. We deny our happiness. We also lessen the import- and soon the availability to the people who are suffering in the world. You know people don't realize that It's ok to be happy and in fact it in full, This is u with care and the love and so forth, to take care of others.

There was a nearer view that my dear friend west scrutiny, oscar yo journalist for years who die this we had with irish, larger our greatest environmentalists and poets purely surprise in the decades ago, for her I was all tat katy Gary. Not that long ago seemed carries climate. It is getting worse. The environment is adding destroyed we're losing species. The oceans are rising, what you have to say to us after fifty. Sixty years is an environmentalist, they help us and gary look back and you said, don't feel guilty if you try to save it out of guilt or blame or anger. Those very forces that have put us in this predicament and start with his, if you want to save it, save it cause you're lucky, you know

because that's the power that, as mothers, pig cars off their children, it the only power we have that right is a match for those other destructive forces, and so in percent happier. she inviting us to have a different kind of power and if it were relating to the world from an inner sense of care and well being- and I just won't appreciate that well, thank you and I did it all by you know. Ripping people like you off. they were all we're. All thieves in that way will any at all from the boolooroo who took it from the previous buddhist in the chair cloud sounded out. Ceo, slash, open house and wisdom ventures. Four people were interested. Can they take a look at tat? The yes? Yes, I was that

we preempted. What I was just going to ask you, which is just to remind people of your latest projects and so for jack, will put in the show, notes, cloud saga and also wisdom ventures, which of course, diego's involved in and diego. Please just remind us of the name of your most recent book and anything else. Do you want us to go check up yet the the way forward, as my newest book, my fourth one and and I'm really having a lot of fun on subs stacked, so young pueblo, dod sub stack dot com? If you wanna read my new longer ratings that I'm sharing there and, of course, let's not forget your instagram, yes, instagram, still plugging away so fun to talk to both of you. Thank you very much great. Pleasures thank you, damn dangling dad I'll see you there is so much fine. Thank you both take care, everybody champ thanks again to jack and diego

always great to talk to those guys. If you want to hear more from them, we put links to some of their past appearances in the show notes, as well as a link to the episode mentioned from Dan clurman, the detail description. Thank you very much for listening by the way, really appreciate that we could not and would not do this without you thanks most of all, though, to the folks who worked so hard on the show, ten percent happier is produced by Gabrielle our common justine davy, Lauren Psmith in terror, Anderson DJ, cashmeres, our senior producer mercer, schneider men is our senior editor cabinet, mozart, director of audio and postproduction gimme, where is our executive? British alisha Mackey leads our marketing and tony magyars our director of pot guests next thorburn of the ban islands. Will our theme, if you like, temper and have you- and I hope you do- you can listen early and ad free right now, by joining wondering plus a wondering app or on apple pie, casts prime members

listen ad free on amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling a short survey at wondering: dot com slash, serve it, hey everybody, its dan. On ten percent happier I like to teach listeners how to do life better. Ah, I wanna try, oh hello, MR grinch. What would make you happy? Ah, let's see out of business sign at the north pole- are a nation wide ban on Carolyn. No I is noise noise. What would really make me happy is, if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right. I got a podcast too hi. It's me, the grand pooh bah humbug, the o g, great grub that great from Ordinary chairs. The grant holiday talk show is a pathetic attempt by the people of all bill to use my situation as a teachable development. So joy may the bridge lesson

I launched a campaign against christmas jeer, grilling celebrity guests like chestnut that an open fire Your family will love the show. As you know, I'm famously great, with kids follow Tis the grandfather data, on the one to react or wherever you get your pop