The ten percent happier podcast dan harris the hello, everybody I have, and I'm sure you have heard them, third boundaries, a million times to me at least that always did like something people yet on about on daytime talk, shows no disrespect to data and talk shows. I love going on, though, shows, but anyway I had no idea what the word actually meant or whether was a serious concept at all. My guest today has broken the idea of boundaries down into three levels and six types natura two. While it is a social worker and the new york times, bestselling author of set boundaries find peace which she,

up with a work book on boundaries and in this interview, she's gonna talk is through how we can summon the courage to set and maintain boundaries, even when it's hard and how to respect other people's boundaries, even when they are not clear about what they might be it fast. aiming stuff. I found it very useful just to say before we dive in here that today's episode kicks off two weeks of a series that we call deep cuts where we dip into our vast archive to provide use. Him much needed sanity during the holiday season please enjoy. Ten percent happier is brought to you in part by amazon, prime, for whatever you're into amazon prime offers a range of services like prime video, amazon, prime, music and prime fast free shipping. I've been you

in rhyme video to watch some of my favorite rock n roll documentaries and, of course, I use prime for shopping for all kinds of things. I've got a pretty narrowly sneaker habits of private comes in anti, then this is just one example of many ways that prime can make life a little richer from shopping too. Screaming to saving it's on. Prime visit amazon dot com, slash prime get more out of whatever you are into. A few weeks ago, several families that we know got together. We all stayed in an air bnb on the side of a mountain, a beautiful fall weekend and it was really magical. I love a hotel now and again, but when you with a bunch of families, we really want to spend time with, I think it's great to all, be under the same roof to not have everybody retreating to their own personal lairs. At the end of the day, it really was a great bonding experience and I ll when we do that by the way, that's not the only way to use air

indeed, as you know, the holiday in his here, which means travelling to the family and friends and hear something you may not have since before, while you're out of town, maybe your place could be an araby and we think about it. You can be said not an air being be, and not even know it. It's a smart, simple way to make some extra money, especially over the holidays, when a lot of us are away from our home. Already whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little bit more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think, find out how much at air, bnp, dot com, slash, host. Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre, from best sellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, mysteries and thrillers motivation, wellness business more as an

honourable member, you can choose. One title a month to keep from the entire catalogue, including the latest best sellers and new releases audible, also includes thousands of broadcast from popular favourites to exclusive new series there makes it easy to listen anytime anywhere, while travelling working out walking doing chores you decide. My wife is a huge audio book consumer. She just lenin, Doyle's untamed. She told me this after she found out that I had interviewed blended doyle for this go. She might have been a little annoyed that I didn't include or not interview won't make that mistake again. We ve also my wife and I have been listening to Keith richards autobiography

life on long drives. Since it'll belong book awesome book new members can try audible, free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or texts. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dot com, slash ten percent nature to op. Thanks for coming up. Thank you for having me it's a pleasure. I would love to start if you're up for it with a little of your biography, because, as I understand it, there's something of a story behind why you got it did in the subject of boundaries. Are you comfortable tell him that story? Yes, I grew up in new trade and when I was in underground and notice that I was having sound challenges with people, pushing back against boundaries, so I would set a boundary and

would have so much guilt there. I would renege on my boundary pretty much when I started grad school. They suggested if you're going to be a therapist, you should go to therapy, and so I went to this a b- and I was talking to that they are a piss and she mentioned boundaries, and I was like what is and she's, like that's the struggle you're having and we talked about how to deal with the discomfort. Third around setting boundaries. She really normalized allowed of the things that I wanted and I need it and how those things were healthy. For me. I didn't know that, because people were in a really upset like oh my gosh, you're being so mean. What do you mean? You don't want. Allow me any money- and I my oh, my gosh, I'm a terrible person I don't even have it, but I should give so

have a europe really a fire that what you are doing is healthy for you. It made it more comfortable for me to set boundaries with others. So up as I began my work as They are a piss I notice so many people struggling with the same issues in their relationships and how those things were causing them. Anxiety depression, frustration, duration, burn and so many other issues. Let's define boundaries. What are they? Boundaries are needs and expectations that make you feel safe and comfortable in your I've been in your relationships, they can be verbal requires. They can be behaviour. Oh, but most importantly, is something that helps you to feel comfortable and safe, and with that that means that everyone,

these boundaries are going to be different. Some of us love, hugging people and others. You know it's like hey. I prefer to you, know shake your hand, I don't really like to have people, so everyone's boundaries could be a little bit different and that's why it's really important that we wander about other folks boundaries and that we respect them. Looking at your materials and you'll correct me, if I'm wrong here, I see you, you do a lot of very useful categorization in this here of boundaries, and I see that you ve got three levels of boundaries and six types of boundaries. Can you describe these various levels and types

Yes, so the levels are poorest rigid and healthy. Poorest boundaries are the one where, basically, we have no boundaries were allowing everything to sort of flow through. Sometimes we have an issue with that. Typically, people with poorest boundaries report being frustrated, burn out and overwhelmed because they are never saying now they are never speaking up for themselves. They are always saying yes to whatever anyone else wants. That is where the people pleases lie with rigid boundaries. there's this sense of like counter dependency I can do it on my own or adam. need any ones help. I can figure it out and that's unhealthy because it really keeps people from being

community with you when you're side. Now I don't mean anything, these rules apply to everything rise or if we say I never loan anyone money ever not even not even a friend who can pay you back, not even if you go out to dinner or someone forgot, your wife because there are people who have very strict rules that shouldn't be apply to Everyone in everything and those are the folks with rigid boundaries, and then we have healthy boundaries. We are able to say. Yes, and now we need to wear. imho to consider the person and their abilities in our boundaries, because sometimes we don't need certain boundaries with people. You can have a boundary of please call before you start by, but you may not need that with everyone. So you don't need to tell everyone. Hey here is my room. You may need to scientists

some folks and not others? Boundaries are really important because it lets you know what work you can do and within those levels we have different areas where we need boundaries in their areas are intellectual war. That is what we are talking about. How were able to speak about certain things? It's important that were able to have france's and thought. Sometimes, when we express that, I don't really like that tv show people can get really upset, they think is the end. be. Are there is something wrong with you for not lagging these things, so we have to allow people to be a little dear friend with sexual boundaries, there are certain parameters, there should not be cross. There are some things that are just illegal rye and then other things where people may find it

ray area of. Why wasn't, I wasn't being an appropriate, but the person thought it was inappropriate on their physical, bound free. So again, there are laws around physical boundaries, especially with children, domestic violence. We have to be comfortable physically with people. That was a big thing in the pandemic with six feet right. It's like you know, there is a Certain level of space that I'm requiring right now in ireland, number at the beginning of the pandemic. There was so much conversation around. What do you say when someone is to close and lying to you, What do you say when someone is not pulling out their mass? Those are all physical boundary issue

emotional boundaries is another area, and this is where we are able to talk about what we feel so often in society. I hear people salvation feel that way or that wasn't a big deal. I dont know rather upset about that and what our motions we are entitled to feel. However, we feel because those feelings are based on. Our experience is the near. It is that we have are up bringing as so many things so is really not appropriate to tee also line how they should feel, because we don't know why they are feeling that way, but is something less commonly dad. oh don't be upset, especially with key. As I see it, all the time was not that bad that doesn't really hurt in his eye. It probably really hurts like you, don't have their lake. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you, but I cannot recall how it was to be a five year overheat. Mind me, I can only recall

how it feels now and as an adult, how I choose to continue on with my day, but with a chow. We don't know, but we tell people how to he'll in conversation. So off there there is it's like saying nature. All don't don't feel that way. Don't do this material. Boundaries ultra possessions. Those are the things that I don't want to say we you feel some ownership over, but sometimes our possessions cars money. How we deal with those things is really important to how we allow other people to treat those things, because there are times when you may have a car, and you love your car- you wash it every week and saying this where you will park at the end of the parking lot, because you don't want anybody to open a corridor and hit a car, so our possessions sometimes are really important. So how people are treated bell.

things we may have to verbal eyes. When you take my car, please be cautious about this thing. I don't want you to borrow my car, these sort of things. I know as a person who is now in another city. I do have people come visit and so being really concern around two open alone. My car Do you know? Do I want folks to uber that is a boundary and so just bay? conscious of what you do and don't want to do with your things- is very very important time boundaries. are the one that I think we have the most issues with for ourselves and for others we have this expectation of people being available. I think

EL fowls increasing social media increases. There have certainly have people say: hey, I sent you a text message, but yet I am calling because you can respond about tax or I send you a message I answer grab and now I'm melling, because you didn't respond right away too my message- and so we can have boundaries as to when we respond, weaken, have boundaries as to why things we agree to do with other people. How many things we allow to be on our calendar time is such an important boundary, because it is one thing that to some extent we have allowed of control over and we give that power

a away and that causes us to feel burn out overwhelmed and frustrated because we are now lie. I am doing all these things, I'm going to allow these parties and in all of these spaces that I want to be in and if we look at the boundaries needed in that area, we can very clearly say I can do only do one seventy per week here I need to start working at five p m, because I noticed that I don't have that time with my family after, if I'm still plugged into work with it that time boundary weak and really change the way we think and feel a bow free time, our work, life harmony and our relationships with people. It is a huge space where we can be intentional totally random question. Can I get away with this? Yes, I dunno if this is of boundary violation, but you mentioned that you grew up in detroit

now live in the south, and am I hearing a southern accent? I hear that and I can't tale. I can't even tell if that transition has occurred and move to charlotte in two thousand and nine so is possible. I will say, though, that my fans, ie is originally from the south end. They move to the tree in the fifties, and every year we see all wet in alabama to see family and that sort of thing, so I certainly grew up with grandparents using words like yonder and gayle, all sorts of things, so sure if is there or if I have just acclimated so much, and I don't even notice it well It's the accent. I like it a lot my opinion, but

curious, yeah, I'm gonna start throwing sweetie and everything. I think I can now be set so much you ve, provided me with questions for days, though I appreciate that in your description of setting boundaries and the different types of batteries, from intellectual to material, etc, etc, As I heard you, you were talking about setting boundaries with other people as you move through the world. This is kind of just a a way of thinking about how to move through the world and interacting with other human beings. What about sending boundaries for yourself? For me, for example, one of my big internal struggles is around productivity, and how hard do I work? can do I let my work seep into saturday and sunday, et cetera, et cetera, I'm curious about the internal aspect of this process boundaries.

Is ninety percent internal, and I have learned that daily in working with Why? Because there are so many things that people talk about, that they have the power to control, but it is much easier I think that it is some outside source right, psych, its everybody else. It's not me, I'm not the reason that I'm over book I'm over. Both because everyone keeps asking me, as I go, you're overbook because you're not saying no to everyone asking you- you are working after hours or on vacation,

As you are deciding to work now, there are some careers where we had busy seasons. I think about my account were attorneys. There are things where we have busy seasons, and some of us are always in our busy season were always there. So is really important to to develop boundaries with yourself and a wonderful way to do. That is to be conscious of your values. if your value is to spend time with your family now, maybe that's not levy is not quantity time. Maybe it's not like all weekend. I just want to be with my family- maybe that is taking to ours too,

where, but can we structure that does it have to be like? Oh, I just need to go. Do this thing, or can it be from ten to twelve on saturdays? I will work so everyone know, so no one else is even violating the boundary. Do you have to do it every week or are there certain weeks where you need to do it and others where you do not you give to create those boundaries that flow into your life in a way that makes sense for you and so is really hard when we see things that say this is how you should

Why you should never work on vacation? You should never work after hours in general. I think that could not be a good message because now, especially in the pandemic, and so many folks are working from home with working from home, there are things that happen throughout the day that you may need to take a break for it. So if you could plug back in in the evening, perhaps that makes a little sense for you and your family. So thinking about your life and really structuring the boundaries around that being conscious of your values, looking at the value and then thinking about what boundaries can I have to For my value spending more time with france are having more happy time.

How do I adjust my boundaries for that, because so often we are operating without even thinking about the things that are actually important to us. Let me give you an example, then you can tell me if you're up for it, whether you think this is properly executed in my life for many years more years care to admit. I worked seven days a week, so I'm always busy season. Recently. I left one of my jobs, which was anchoring a broadcast that aired on the weekends. So now I have my weekends and this past weekend. I knew I had a ton of work to do, but I also know from having hosted this podcast for so long and spoken to so many people who are experts in both time management and happiness that it's important not to work all the time. The brain can't keep it up that long and it's important to work on the relationships in your life, because that will make you happy and, of course you bring that happiness and energy back into your work. Shoah, I said to my wife look saturday: I am full

be available? I am not going to even look at my email, I'm the the whole day. It's whatever you want sunday. I need to work until three and then I know we have a family activity from three through the evening and she was like great and it seems to have worked. Does that seem like internal and external boundary setting around time that was function. in your eyes as an expert. Absolutely an: u verbal, I said you're wife. It sounds like she really appreciated that and what we a bow. Tiny is time expands or contracts to fit what you can do within that span right. So, if you give yourself, I need to write Seven pages is six hours. You probably will write seven pages in six hours. As you know that you only have so much time, so I think is very effective to say, I can only work to this time, because your one day at my and for the way it creates life is okay. We

to get it done. We have these things. We don't have time to live on my shop right now. We really need to focus on work, so that's a very healthy thing and it sounds like it works for you in your family yeah. That's what I was saying about no work on weekends. I think that there is a portion of people who actually enjoy were they find their work very valid. Bull is not something that the they desiring this huge vacation away from and a lot of what we see as people who rely. I hate my job. How do I get out of it? right. There is somebody like actually like this software is really important to me like. I really want to be good at. saying and might require me to do some evenings and weekends, that is fine as long as you're making space for family social and all these other things are really thinking about how you want to structure.

Your schedule is a beautiful boundary. Let me go back to the the bravery issue when you listed all the levels of boundaries setting from again emotional material, intellectual, etc, I can imagine a lot of people hearing this saying yeah idea. I need to do this. I've got a boss is asking me to do too much. I've got friends and family who were asking me for money or asking me for time in ways that I'm not comfortable, I'm feeling overwhelmed, etc. This magical person on conjuring, which I think is probably most people my feel I dont- have the wherewithal to do this. I'm just terrified of my boss or I don't want to anger my family, how do we get started in what may seem like an overwhelming project? What, if you remember at the beginning of this program, this is what I talked about that that fear of the unknown.

How people react dead, what they might say and telling the big bad wolf there. You don't want to do this thing, it is scary. What gives me comfort is the majority of the time. People actually respect your boundaries. There are some outliers. Of course there are people who, like, oh my god, I just said I can do this thing for them and they exploded that happens. But when I really think about life and setting boundaries. There have been more people who have said: ok, no problem what works better for you or any of those things than there have been people who have chosen to inter relationship or have an explosion We really have to work towards not being psychics and predicting the future of what could be

cause bosses have boundaries, they may not have boundaries with you, but there is probably somebody else on the teams one else in your life that has boundaries with this person and the boss is respecting the same thing for parents. I get that a lot with parents. I can't tell my mom that I'm not coming home for the holiday, your mother respects boundaries. She's been on this earth a long time. She's worked. She has friends, she has other family members. Some of those folks have boundaries with her. and the things that are not happening in your life or sometimes, as a result of not having that boundary is not because of the person, because the person can respect boundaries. They have relationships with other people. It's just that you haven't implemented any Now I will say: will you setting boundaries with someone for, the first time it

be interesting to them that you are choosing a boundary in this situation because you have done it before. It might be interesting said them that you can no longer help in a certain way allow them time to adjust, because it is an issue for their just like his new for you to say to them. I can't I can't do this thing or I need help with. It is new to them It isn't due to you so there's probably this conference on both sides- you're, not the only person, has let why I can't believe. I said that they are also saying, while I can't believe they said that so now that both of you are probably in the same space and that. being brave. Is it is really challenging, and I think we can work out I up in some relationships and issues like this person won't. Even here we have this idea that they can't even hear it. They won't risk did. They were retaliate and wages.

stone. Now we just don't. And so allow people to be upset because It may or may not happen, and hopefully it doesn't. Hopefully they respect the boundary and the relationship is preserved. In even stronger, because right now The relationship is being damaged by not having the boundary your burnt out with work. Your burnt out with you know, a certain friendship, because you don't have the boundaries and place much more by conversation with network to walk right after this. The holiday is not only allow us to spend time with family, but there are also a reminder of how important our responsibility is to protect our family, and that includes planning to secure their future life insurance is an easy way to give your family peace of mind. It provides a safety net. So something were to happen to you.

Your family's him cover expenses while getting back on their feet. Things like mortgage payments or college costs. I have life insurance for this there Recent pay, something terrible were to happen. I would not want to put my family financial distress on top of their emotional distress policy. Genius knows how valuable your time is. Their technology makes it easy to compare life insurance quotes from america's top insurers. In just a few clicks to find your lowest price with policy genius, you can find life insurance, sees that start at just two hundred and ninety two dollars a year for a million dollars of coverage, some options offer same day. Approval and avoid unnecessary medical examined. Your family deserves peace of mind. A life insurance policy through policy genius can give it to them had to policy genius dot com to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save that's policy genius, dot, com.

Give giving is always a challenge, no matter how? Well you know somebody, but this year you might consider giving a few special people, something I'm pretty sure that they will love cashmere sweaters from quince it's great timeless essentials that never go out of style, including swayed bomber, jackets, organic cotton, sweater, and mongolian cashmere crewneck sweaters from fifty nine dollars by partnering direct without factories, quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings onto us, which means all quince items are priced. Fifty to eighty percent, less than similar brands and quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. I have a great sweatshirt from quince. I did get a cashmere sweater, but it was too big for me, so I gave it to my friend jason who's a little bit bigger. He sent me a picture of him wearing it. He looks great in it I'm a little jealous. I think I have to go. Get one

I myself make gift giving better this year with quince, go to quince dot com, slash happier for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns on your order. That's q! U, I n c e dot com, slash happier to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns, quince dot com, slash happier, quick reminder. If you're looking for any last minute holiday gifts, you can give the gift of ten percent happier go to ten percent dot com, slash gift to get a subscription to the ten percent happier app for anybody in your world. There is a certain amount of skill involved here and how you communicate the boundary, and you can go about it in a way that in boosts the odds of alienating the other person. If your messages infused with rage and frustration and judgment

the easiest way to set a boundary is to think about what your problem is and what the solution is. and the boundary is telling the person the solution. So if you one too many projects at work. and you're act to be on another patch, and the solution is. I can not be on another project. That is your boundary right there. I cannot take on any more projects right now, We are constantly looking for the perfect words. That is the question I get them. also about boundaries. How do I say to someone there? I don't want to watch their dark. Those are the words right there. I don't want to watch her dark, we're looking for something better.

Is not as offensive or something that people will feel really good about. They won't be mad at us, but not watching someone's dog when they really want you to wash their dog. It could go either way. We cannot predict how they all feel we can be very kind and gentle and let them know that were not able to meet that request. I love the way that bob raw speaks in this very lie. Gentle way. You know, perhaps it would be helpful to just take a breath. Take your voice down salmon say right now: I'm not able to do that. You know just alike. jerry, your inner life com and say to someone that doesn't work for me, not in a whisper, but definitely in a voice it? doesn't even seem like. Oh my gosh. I get a lot from people.

so calm and I'm like really on the inside. Our fire I am on fire about when I say it is like you were so common Y yeah, because what I'm doing is. I can't believe that you will think this Ok, this is not ok behaviour, so it's could screen that. I could screen that, but I'm thinking about the other person's reaction to it, I really want them to hear it into able to receive it and not from a space of anger. I can be angry and last speak in a way.

That shows. This is how man, I am a you right now, as I I'm very upset about this and that its practice for sure it thinks it does take practice. But we can certainly just take a b and say you know the thing that we need or state that require so often when we are at. point where we're aggressive with setting the boundary will. We are yelling demeaning, screaming upset at people where we actually set the boundary. The boundary has been violated, in so many ways and now we're at the end of our road with this person or with this situation and where we setting the boundary it comes out like rage, because

We are tired and so is really important to to set the boundary before you get to the point of yelling the boundary to really think about like in this moment. What do I want or need? Not this person has at been asking me things for two years. Two years is a very long time to be frustrated. Two years is a very long time to be irritated by someone requesting something one mouth, the boundary might come out a little better at one month to you, as you might yet the boundary at the purser yemen and there's no small amount of self interest at play here, because, ultimately, what you want is for people to hear and absorb your message. We know from the brain science that, if people's a mig dilah the fear centre of their brain, if that part of the brain is activated the more rational part of it,

nine prefrontal cortex goes off line, so in other words, if your bring in the energy of heat and judgment, an accusation to the boundary setting new are less likely to have the other person's brain response. And the way you want it to so channeling your inner bob ross makes sense. Hearing I note a barbarous, the famous television painting instructor. I recently watch the documentary on him and I did not know that his hair is not naturally like that he put his hair. Yes, yes, I too, I sent back you battery and they said the bow his town being very intentional and how he was speaking in that way, because he knew that that was a voice their predominantly men washing his show could understand, because he'd watched other people with similar classes.

Something like creating things that he thought they were. Oh wow, it's a little aggressive or they're yelling. I wonder if mine would be more successful if I just spoke in this whisper- and I said you know you just you just stabbed like so, and it was very successful people alive? Oh my gosh, the paintings, the voice, it works. So just thinking about how we present the boundary is very important, but that also comes the timing of what we're doing it when we are at the point of like I am so angry it does seem to come out a bit aggressive. So My goal is always to help people set the boundary before it gives to the point of exhaustion. other strategy just to add here, know you're the expert, I'm not expert, but it just occurred to me that when trying to set boundaries which

as we have established, is tricky one thing that might help aside from channeling the inner bob ross is something it I've learned from the communications coaches with whom I have worked for the past couple of years. I invokes these names a lot in my pike, s interviews, because these coaches have had a lot of a powerful impact on me that Her name's arm would deter mister vandam carmen and something they recommend is that when you are trying to send a message to somebody to lead with what they call your positive intention, in other words, to frame it not in the negative so as to not activate the amygdala of your interlocutor. So, for example, with the dog thing you gave an example of like I do want to watch your dog. It might make sense to say I care about this relationship. I love you, but I can't do it this weekend and I'm really sorry about that. My moslem intention is implicit or explicit to keep a relationship with you, but I can't watch your snatcher this weekend because whatever I'm gonna be aware,

or I just don't want it anyway- does any that land for you, the idea of stating your positive intention for the relationship and then pursuing the boundary setting Absolutely I think that is effective strategy to let people now I love you. I care about this relationship in this thing won't work for me. Some people certainly need bad, particularly family, a romantic relationships. Those are places where we want to with love, and let people know that I love you and I cannot do this thing or, and this is not working for me absolutely. Maybe a little more interesting and work settings or that sort of thing you don't want to tell a colleague I love you and am I can't help you with this project were perhaps there is something

else. We could say enjoy working with you, but right now my calendar is for there are so many other things I have going alone. Sometimes, though, I have noticed that when people really want something from you, they have this seem ergo level of persistence and we can give them a story. we can't let them know how much we care about a relationship or care about the situation and not in that light matter, and so knowing your people in setting foundries- is really helpful because there are some people who would really appreciate you sign. I love you and I cannot do that and there are other people who will seal say if you

love me? Why can't you so knowing your person is so important? I was talking to someone recently who was unable to commit to a work opportunity and they told the person all of these things they handle Emily sound, really reasonable is like I have these ten thinks I'm so I cannot do this right now. I would love to work with you in the future or something like that and the person they said that he was very upset. It was like. Why can't you do it for me, it's like put me on as the eleven thing if they wouldn t that that bound erie and the person setting the boundary rules. Really like did I say something wrong, and I said no some people just can't receive the boundary is not about how you say it, because you you did it in a very compassionate way by letting them know. You know why

We say no, but they weren't able to receive that now. I don't know if there's a them a better way to say something that a person is just unwilling to receive. So if there are relationships are situations where or person has a problem receiving boundaries, I think keeping it sure in simple is best, because what you don't want it, to do, is, try to now start a conversation around. Why you don't really need the boundary or how they can make whatever they won't work for your life. You really does need them to honour the boundary so with those people with those, I think the comedian Charlie murphy once described with James as aid, virtual line, stepper windows, habitual lines, travellers with with steve articles

I imagine you have to be prepared to set the boundary over and over again I mean yeah, if you think about like that's what laura was doing if he ever so it's like I'm not going to discuss with you. I think I some point Lauren. She didn t see machine dated his altered ego steffani. So there is this idea, sometimes with boundaries that if we can t, you to ask people at some point. They will say yes, and so when setting the boundary the language we use is really important. If you don't ever want to watch your friends door, how do you like that person know that this is something that you're just not open to as a thing in your friendship with them. How do you say

it's so it's. I love you, but I am not a dog person and it doesn't fit into my life. I don't want to ruin our relationship because I'm not giving your dog the attention it needs. Perhaps there is, you know some service. You know some other person who really loves dogs, but it is not me. I love But I do not like dogs, so how do you say to some wanted? There is some finality to this boundary because you don't want people to continue to repeat something when it's like. This is a like. Never for me is not like right now. I don't want to do this. This is a never. So being you know, certainly can. separate in your language and signs of someone that this is not something that could be an option in the future just really signs that someone like we are at the end of the road. This is it. This is my

I answer in is not something that we can have any wiggle room on and, as you said, there are a lot of people who won't take that, even if you present the boundary with as having no wiggle room, you might have to be prepare to just set the boundary over and over again, your mom's just going to keep pushing you to come home for christmas. Your friends are going to keep shoving that dog on you. Your boss is going to keep asking you to add one more thing to your project lists and you just if I'm channeling you correctly You just have to be willing to restate the boundary over and over. Is there no other strategy? The strategy is sang sap many times we dont say sat we just let people Ten you to ask us one example that I use my book is someone didn't. Particularly enjoy their coworkers personality, but the person will always ask them to launch as though they now.

say it like. I like to eat much here or I prefer to have lunch by myself. It was like all not today. No not this time. No, I can't go like all of these things, but there was no like hey This is my preference here. If you have a parent who aside, do you want to come home for christmas? Do you want to come home, for praise was no just like last year were not coming home. You know those sorts of things you can say to someone. Please stop asking me because I feel like this is like a no in the few, sure as well. I feel like this is a universal now I feel like this will be a no in twenty twenty three and a no one. Twenty thirty as well, don't say that. But you can just say: please stop asking we try to find is really complicated language,

two to say: stop, and really the were is just stop. Please stop asking is what we do with kids. You know you do get to a point where you say: stop asking that something that certainly with my five, he rode in sleigh. Did you hear Yes, I know it's stop sat because this is a no now it will be a no in the car it will be always like sap, we have to get to a stopping point. Yeah. I was about. I have no problem, bringing the hammer down my six year old, but the app just keep going back to the example you conjured of somebody in the office asking you out to lunch over and over, it seems so uncomfortable to say to that person. I just this is in no for today, and I would like you to apply this- no through twenty thirty and beyond

like that, and then you have to keep working without person. That just seems so uncomfortable. Is it uncomfortable to say through a lunch with someone there. You don't enjoy, address ass, uncomfortable to their said. It sounds like choose your discover. Do you want to have pretend lunches what this person for the duration of you being at this company, or do you want to say, hey, I'm not really interested in going to large? I do think that it is uncomfortable, but I also believe that we don't have to like everyone in everyone will not like us.

And so there are people in life whose company we will not enjoy. There are people in life who will now enjoy our company, and so when that is the case, we don't have to say to people. I don't like your personality, but we can set. You know an hour for lunch. You only get you know most jobs, you get an hour for lunch. Some people go work out. Some people listen to a podcast, but it's really not a lot of tie so again time boundaries. Is this how you want to spend your one hour and how do you let this person know in a very kind and gentle way? It's not. I don't ever want to go to lunch with you, but it could be.

I prefer to have my lunches alone, because this is the time where our restore myself, but thank you so much for the invite just letting them know in a very gentle way that this is something that does not work for you, because we do. We want to tell people, you should go to lunch with people, even if you don't want to you should do this, even if you don't want to. You should go and visit your parents, even if you don't want to that, is where the fear of his in me says now, because then I get people in my office. Talking about, well depression because you're going home for christmas, and they don't want to be there or anxiety about interacting with a certain coworker, because they don't really like the person, so it creates so many bigger issues because we're really trying to avoid

setting a really hard boundary. That is a really hard, uncomfortable boundary, but the consequences of that are really being much. My conversation with network to operate after this. You know what I love of bread? I am gluten plus baby. I love bread. If you are looking for delicious read the benefits check out hero, bread, zero to one grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, but high in fiber, and contains fewer calories and more protein per serving than the conventional version of the same baked. Goods hero, bread products are delicious and flavorful offering the soft fluffy experience. You love when enjoying a blt savory breakfast burrito, mouth watering, cheeseburger good folks from hero,

at my family package, full of bread I immediately cracked into one of the loaves toasting up a slice of the sea bread. There were some olive oil on it. He was straight up delicious. Thank you. Hero I'll, be snacking on this stuff for awhile hero. Bread is offering ten percent off your first order to our listeners, go to hero, dot, c, o and use code happier at checkout. That's h, a p p. I e r at h, e r, o dot c, o. The holidays are coming up and maybe you're planning some travel with your family or your friends into great time to check out via tore to consider booking some experience to share together and makes a memories fight or has over three hundred thousand workable experiences and something for everyone. Everything from simple tours for extreme adventurous plus via torres travel, expense

it's his have millions of real traveller reviews. So you can have the information you need to book the best activities for your trip. I went to damage with the little man recently we scroll through a bunch of possible activities on via tore would get some other trips coming up in the future and its great too get a sense of what we want to do and then it even book some experiences through via tore. I've also look at some of the amazing experiences via tore off. Right here, where we live in the new york area, plenty of cool stuff to do without taking a big trip. It's a great service.

load the via tore up now in use code by it or ten for ten percent off your first looking in the ep, one at over three hundred thousand travel experiences, you will remember, do more with white or let's talk about it from the flip side, what your advice on respecting other people's boundaries and maybe even intuitively their boundaries can sometimes people won't have the wherewithal to tell us respecting boundaries that also some practice because we do live in a society where we think we can be persistent or we think someone will change their mind. We think that, because of our relationship with them that they should have a boundary

You know they shouldn't have these boundary of not coming home for christmas, because this is my child. How dare they say that? But everyone is entitled to their preferences to to be a little different from someone else how do we just say? That's a dear friend I honour that you don't have to be just like me. It is a life practice I hear someone say a boundary and say: okay, thank you for telling me that we don't have to like other people's boundaries. We don't have to agree with the boundary. We don't have to have a deep understanding of it, but what we can do is honor it. We can just allow a person to have a battery, because that will, I believe, make the relationship deeper. When we do things with people that we actually enjoy. Will we have conversations where we actually feel comfortable? We help them in ways that are truly authentic. I remember maybe this was in the nineties

There was this movement of parenting, not telling your key at seattle. To think of these alternate things like. Would you rather do this or it'll just not using the word? No- and I thought that was really interesting to not use the word. No, because we need a lot of practice with here again. We really do we need in if we can start practicing at two three years. All perhaps will be better at it by the tower thirty forty fifty sixty of allowing people to say now, because people will say now and we have to deal with the discomfort around. We cannot make everyone say yes or be willing to do everything for us. We have to allow people

have options, what about the scale of kind of making the empathic leap into the minds of the people around you in a way that allows you to make educated guesses about what their boundaries are, because a lot of people don't you know, I haven't worked with you or haven't listen to this pakistan haven't worked up the skill set in the gumption required to set boundaries. Do you find yourself doing that? You know just making educated guesses about what the boundaries my peal of the people in your world, yeah I think, based on someone's behavior, sometimes the the tone in which they say yes or no is a good indicator of how they feel about it. I notice a hesitant yes and I tend to release people when I hear the hesitancy when I hear the

yeah, I do. Is I well. I don't want you to feel like you need to do this with me or for me, because I'm asking there is something else that we can do here is another need that I may have that you may say yes to so really being conscious of how people are saying things to ask your body language when they're saying things when we noticed that their energy, as we know which friends or family members enjoy certain things in which things they dont really enjoy. So we now have to include people in everything we do have to ask for help in, everything, because, hopefully we have a community of people, and so there are some people who will want to do this thing and there are some people who world and that's ok. We have to build our community when we notice that oh gosh here is no one who wants to do blind with

I have to accept the no of everyone else, but I need to also find someone who wants to try this thing with me. It doesn't mean that you have to figure out who your circle. You now need to make a part of this experience, because, even if they say yes Will they enjoy it? Will they like it in the way that you do probably not because it's not their thing, so really noticing the way people say yes or no workfare sighing asking them questions, I noticed that you say no in this situation. Is that in no way universally? Why forever? Or is that no this time? sometimes we are afraid of the answer, but just having an idea, can actually give you the ability to choose differently in the future. Is it important to bear in mind the intersection

boundaries and diversity in other words, might be easier. Meta set a boundary in a workplace given that the motto workplace was created by white men for the benefit of white men it might be easier for me to set a boundary then for a woman or women of color or somebody who's differently enabled? So I wonder if you have thoughts about how these two issues can intersect, while as a black woman, I definitely think that there is this stigma when black women, boundaries in it's angry black woman, oh my god. She so angry. She said now. It's like this year. Did she pushed something over what what happened wishes now. She just said now: ok, what people can say now, so it is the stigma around black women sang it. For women to be assertive. There are all the bar see. She's fine

see she's, sassy it'll, all of these sort of things, and what I see that, as is while they set about it's a diva. I bet you hear that a lot with our female entertainers there she is a diva. I try to look into that like what are they calling her a diva for? Oh, she wanted ice, cold water and don't hear the diva behavior here like we all have a preference for water The temperature is that the sheep, the row about aware someone, because it was room temperature like what is actually happening and will run with itself, and we really have to think about how are we feeding into the cereal type is

our way of disempowering a population of people from saying now. Are we really trying to silence them by creating labels by creating terms that don't support them being assertive? Sometimes we are and we have to strike those sort of words from our vocabulary in a childcare situation. Once someone called my daughter sassy, as say: oh, no, no, no, no! No! No! We don't use that were. We cannot refer to her s sassy, because She was stating a preference now does she roll her eyes in decent arrow? No, that's not what happened. She stayed, it appears France is so now. If we give her these sassy label, which is in a negative competition,

to have an abound very this is it am I being anything or am. I require emerges requesting something emma stating a boundary so being really conscious of these labels and how we use them is really important for empowering marginalized groups to have boundaries that we have to be conscious of how we are playing into them, not having boundaries. What I heard you say very well in amerika, the commencing fashion was how the larger society should you requests for boundaries from marginalize communities, but, given that the largest society is so infused with prejudices and biased sees what would your vice b to people who are in marginalized groups who nonetheless need to state their preferences and get their needs met? So one thing a there is really challenging, particularly in corporate environments

is educating people as to why you're not being aggressive like actually I'm not being aggressive like this is how I talk and I think, within some cultures it is cultural to speak, a certain way right with this one cultures. is normal to speak at an elevated term. It is normal to maybe not look. People and eyes, depending on the culture and because we live in a space with some. The others. We have two not personalize. Every single enter action, especially a work environments. Every one is not like me and my friends who kicked, but I think I am coming to work. People are going to be different, they're going to eat things. That may be I've never heard of they're gonna, where their hair and different way they're gonna, have different activities on the weak here. This is actually a learning experience. This is an opportunity for me to learn about

other people. This is not an opportunity for me to push my culture on them. and to say this is how I act, and this is how you need to act, is really to understand and get to know. If you're in a working space was someone get to know the person, so you at least know like ok. This is a time where she's actually being aggressive, but if you're applying you know

something that is it even pertaining to this person. Based on your interactions with them. You won't know you're just going in with this bias of up bank. They said it in this way, or they did this thing. There is something that they are doing to me when perhaps this is how they speak, they are a people is life. Oh yeah, you now she's always loud it's so when they are loud with you, there not doing anything special. They are not being aggressive his eye. They speak in a loud voice. You guys are really getting to know. People before attaching any sort of label to their behaviour is really important. Lesson I want to ask about is

What can you talk about the intersection of boundary setting and trauma in particular childhood trauma? What are your thoughts on that with childhood trauma such as neglect, sexual abuse, physical abuse, physical neglect, the boundaries are often non existent or blurred and within the population of Colleagues who have experienced any sort of childhood trauma. There is a lot of work to be done around you're standing their own boundaries, sometimes setting those boundaries with people there's a lot of in measurement co dependency. This responsibility for people who, in some situations, have abused you or neglected you a lot of guilt within that population, because there are things that happen that are out of your control, but you still feel like you could have done something or you're still

looking for acceptance from a situation where someone was abusive to you, the boundaries within that path, laser issues so unique, and I think that the word fear is certainly is deeper is not just about boundaries. There is a lot of work to be done around your mind I said talking about what is appropriate. What is inappropriate, because people may not know I'm off then in the work of Hell. the people who have a motion on the glass from childhood and one of the things of children who were raised to be many adults. They don't know what's age appropriate, they don't know what you should be doing at twelve years old because

twelve years old. They didn't have any boundaries, and so when they see a child, you know maybe at six plan with the barbie dolls like. Why did a player with a dow? I was doing that as I yeah, because you were doing these other things that were actually inappropriate and so teaching so on was age. Appropriate is a whole process. Sometimes I have my client skull to a store and just look at the toys and look at the age on the toys. Those ages are they are because that was appropriate. So at eight, this is where you were supposed to be an ash shocking to people like. Oh, my gosh, eight hours. I was watching like all of these things that happen because there were no boundaries. So now figuring out how to play, because you didn't have a situation where you play so the work of troy Burma is certainly a deeper level with learning about boundaries.

because there have been so many boundary violations that now we need to uncover what has happened? What was inappropriate and the boundaries that you can set going forward. Bottom line seems to me, and I'm taking this from you- is that diving into boundaries setting them with other people figuring out your own needs, so that you can appropriately set them figuring out how you're going to communicate your needs in a way that will maximize your odds of success. Make sure you back that up with actions that to similarly optimize your odds for success, the the bottom line to all of this? If I'm hearing you correctly is your relationships will get better. The more you set boundaries absolutely and evil. When people lose relationships are really concerned about, like maybe it headless at the boundary. It always wonder, was it

healthy relationship of setting a boundary ruined your relationship with someone you saying to them. This is my boundary. That was like the big thing that brought them. relationship dow. What was a relationship based on what was it a healthy situation for you, or maybe even the other person, because they had different expectations too so in general the relationships that are worth having the relationships that are for feeling the relationships with people who should be in your orbit. They are deeper more connected an authentic when we have healthy boundaries and place. Can I get you in closing to plug everything? Can you put your books? Can you plug your instagram feed any resources? Your put none the world, they want people to know about

Can I push you to share that stuff? Yes, so I have a book, it is set boundaries find peace. I have a workbook the set boundaries workbook. I am most present and active on instagram at you're too lab, and my website is natural to web, that calm bridge major natura two websites for canada, you're welcome Thanks again to network to web postscript, to talk to her when I hear more from the drug just go to the show notes page for a link to another episode, we did with her on how to handle the drama, thank you very much for listening, really appreciate. We wouldn't couldn't do this without you Most of all to everybody who worked so hard on the show ten percent happier is produced by gabrielle, ingesting davy, Lauren, psmith and terror. Anderson DJ cashmeres are senor producer?

schneider mean. Is our senior editor kevin o connell? Is our director of audio and postproduction and gimme regular? Is our executive produced Alisha Mackey leads our marketing and tony magyar is our director of pot casks and nick thorburn ban island road. Our thing, if you like ten percent happier If you do, you can listen early and ad free right now, by joining one replace, wondering app or on apple pie casts prime members

listen ad free on amazon music. Before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondering dot com, slash survey. Sometimes during christmas, something magical happens: hey cricket customers. The max dad's plan is included with the cricket. Sixty dollar unlimited plan at no additional cost, and this holiday season max is the one to watching your feeling festive crack cozy up to all the holiday classics like elf, eight, the christmas and the harry potter, eight film collection, just log in with your cricket, username and password to experience max out all your favorite devices phone plans, dreams of standard definition, programming, subject to change fees, terms of restrictions, apply, see cricket wireless dot com for details, hey everybody, it's dan. On ten percent happier I like to teach listeners how to do life better. I want to try oh hello, mister grinch. What would make you happier? Ah, let's see ad

out of business. Sign at the north pole are a nationwide ban on caroling and noise noise noise. What would really make me happy is, if I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right. I got a podcast too hi. It's me, the grand poobah bah humbug, the o g green grub that grinch from ordinary chairs, the grant holiday talk show is a pathetic attempt by the people of all bill to use my situation as a teachable development. So joy may the bridge lesson I launch a campaign against christmas. Jeer, grilling celebrity guests like chestnuts, on an open fire Your family will love the show, as you know, I'm famously great, with kids follow Tis the grandfather data on the one to react or wherever you get your podcast.