This is the ten percent happier pack cast down harris, hey guys. Many of you will have heard me say this before, but this is, I think, one of those things that genuinely bears frequent repeating the process Making and or breaking habits can be diabolically heart, and this is not your fault. If you struggle with behavior change, you are not somehow uniquely dysfunctional. The fact is, pollution simply did not wire us for the easy adoption of healthy habits natural. selection, as I often say, was really focused on

your dna into the next generation, not necessarily on making you. We don't content and happy as a consequence, were very good. Looking for food mates and threats in the environment and not so good at remember it, flaws, and these rude brute facts about the human animal, I think, are a big part of why so many people who want to meditate do not actually meditate any nearly nine and a half years. Since my first book, ten percent happier came out, I have seen incredible shifts in terms of the practice of meditation. It's no longer socially unacceptable to admit they do it. For example, now I'm not saying definitely not saying that my book is the reason for this. I really think the science is the reason for this, but I will say that either his attitude toward meditation have shifted. I think there are still so many obstacles, including finding the time remembering to do it and just the sheer difficulty of keeping it up so that was a long wind up, but it brings me to my guests today who have come up with a one minute: meditation practices,

I'm pretty sure anybody or almost anybody can do you can think of it as micro dosing meditation. I first heard about these guys from my friend and teepee h fan favorite, seven, a selassie who wrote me an email that said the following: this was after she read the book. There was written by the two guests today, here's your quote. I was kind of blown away by it I think their work is gonna revolutionise my mindfulness, so my guests are jake eagle, whose psychotherapist psychotherapist my fulness instructor and doktor Michael Amsterdam, physician with specialty in pain, management,

is also a certified yoga. Meditation teacher, together out with a reasonably new book, called the power of awe overcome, burn out an anxiety, ease, chronic pain, fine clarity and purpose in less than one minute a day I wrote my wife bianca, who has long struggled to boot, up a meditation practice into being my co interviewer. For this episode, in which we discussed the following, how Jacon Michael stumbled upon this method? That's a story that involves pancakes why bianca has trouble with meditation and white Jake actually says he is a terrible meditate her. Why people who have trouble sitting daily for extended periods of time might find that micro dosing is easier. How to do there ah method an acronym, a w e the similarities and differences between ah and traditional mindfulness meditation, practical tips for trying out in your daily life the early epic evidence about the effectiveness of the method and, finally, you'll hear

whether bianca and I were convinced. I should say this episode is part of a little summer series were running called mundane glory, it's all about learning, not too old, look the little things in your daily life that can be powerful and evidence based levers for increasing your happiness. If you missed the previous episodes on the power of art or beauty, broadly defined, go check them out. Don't miss out on the engine. Everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth. If you haven't tried walking meditation before I highly recommend you check it out here is one user had to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog. The longer I

the more the more I learn, isn't nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life. Changing. That's awesome here, download the ten percent happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free. They show a sponsored by better help. Sometimes in life were faced with tough choices in the path for it is not all clear what did yogi barrow say when you come to a fork in the road. Take it not very useful, although I guess kind, funny, but yeah. We don't always know what the right way to go is, and I find myself and many forks in the road or places where it does more than fork, and it can be really helpful to have expert advice to make better decisions. Whether we are dealing with this around your career, your relationships or anything else, therapy helps you stay connected to what you actually want, while you do your life, so you can move forward with some confidence and maybe even some excitement trusting yourself to make Decisions that align with your values is like

else and life the more you practice it the easier it gets. I spent quite a bit of time going over big decisions with my therapist ten. found them to be massively massively helpful if you're thinking about starting therapy give better help a trial, it's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Let there it'd, be your map with better help visit, better health dot com. Slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help! H e l, p e dot com, slash happier. Maybe you've stayed in an air bnb before and thought to yourself. This actually seems pretty. global. Maybe my place could be an air, be envy the could be, simpler, starting with a spare room or your old place when you're a way you could be sitting on an air b and be gold mine and not even knowing I stay and air. in these areas.

So while I really enjoy it is actually a terrific alternative, so hotels, especially I got beach vacations when my family will have to be able to have a house more space for ourselves, so big fan and it really is something that many of us could take advantage of as an economic opportunity. For example, if there's a big music festival or tournament come into your city, that's a perfect opportunity to get out of here and avoid the traffic you can air being be your home and make a little extra money, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something a little bit more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think, find out much more air being be dot com, slash, host, doktor, Michael hamster and jake eagle. Welcome to the show Thank you. We ve been excited looking forward to this. Thank you down

ro the beer and doktor bianca harris welcome. Do thank you. Watch out guys. Doktor Harris is a beast. She will fuck you up question if you're, not careful, we ve heard that before, I hope everyone should appreciate the sarcasm. Yeah, I'm never sarcastic, you know their baby. So let me just start with you guess this before get sucked into the rabbit hole of our relationship. Can you tell us about your relationship, Michael Jake? How do you know each other? How did this partnership come to be So this is Michael. I am pay me management specialist out in california, and I met Jake about six. ten years ago after I went through a painful before us, a friend of mine, referred me to check to do some cochin, and I was told about these incredible retreats that jacon his wife Hannah it through their organization called live conscious and they were truly life. Changing experiences and

did individual work with Jake fer a number of years and then over time, our relationship transitioned into, being colleagues were both mindfulness teachers and started. Our working relationship around the region sean are about four years ago, when we start having conversations about how to discover a new way of teaching mindfulness too are a clients and patience. We both have taught to hundreds of patients and clients for me as a pay mansion specialists have led mindful programmes for a number of years, and also let a buddhist saga, and we have some really great connection around wanting to find micro dosing practices to help people develop a more sustained. By from this practice, Where would you like to share out that jake? Well, what happened really wasn't quite is intentional. From my point of view, research- doubled onto this I was teaching a programme online called thrilled to be alive and Michael's curious,

What I was doing so he joined that as a participant and during that programme it. Out the people were really reluctant to meditate. I ask everybody to meditate ten minutes today and about half the people said they couldn't do that they didn't have. Time is too much of a burden, so I asked people to do micro, meditations, and then Michael came up with the idea of calling it micro dosing mindfulness, and when I kinda programmes. I always do pre and post analysis of the participants where they are from a psychological point of view, from my mom for this and a well being point of view and when I noticed at the end of that course, was that the people who did the micro dosing we're? Getting results that were equal are better to the people who were the ten minutes of meditation day above Michael, I were really shocked. You just kind of couldn't stan why they were getting such good results. So michael flu

to hawaii spent a week with me and my wife Hannah and the three of us really try to understand what was going on and that's when we realised what we were doing as we were helping people access the positive emotion of awe because, as we listen to what people said and we read what they ro. They were very much describing the emotion of are so. We realized we come up with a way to help people access are- and I am sure will talk more about that. But we really stumbled upon this. It was not something that we had thought about until we saw the result. I wanna talk a lot about what you found and awe and all that stuff. But let's stay on this level of the difficulty, many people have booting up a meditation habit. This is actually part of why wanted bianca hear you you're married to like a meditation, evangelical and you've struggled with booting up a habit. Part of that is because I was so obnoxious about it

the but like? Can you just describe why this has been hard for you? I would love to blame it on you and your suddenly. Partly to blame. I think for me, it just has roots in probably the way I grew up in that I really wasn't exposed to consistency in patterns and habit and self care just because of a fairly chaotic background, which I talked about before and Oh, both not having had models for its, although my dad later in life, started to run marathons. Perhaps they would have been more in that camp early on between that and having some sort of rebellion against my husband, I think has been a little bit hard for me to put self care first and unless the active, did he feels good in the moment? As I'm sure this is for most people, when you go to the gym, you don't always want to go or enjoy when you're there, but afterwards relic. Of course that was amazing, or at least that was worth it, but I have that same kind of hidden, hedonistic,

alive like I want to feel good right away. Otherwise I probably won't do it. I mean that's the problem with meditation. You knew if you go exercise, it may feel awful in the moment, but it does feel good afterwards, it's a little bit like the guy. You know the joke about the guys banging his head up against the wall, and somebody says why you're doing then- and he says, because it feels so good when I stop- and that is true with exercise and neuro chemically we get endorphins but with meditation, especially at the start. There is no feedback like that. It just sucks and then you stop, and it doesn't necessarily feel great because you stopped it takes. I my experienced in my informal surveying of people like takes a month of consistent practice before you start to get some intrinsic motivation to do it, because it's not only somewhat enjoyable to do but you're starting to see the benefits in the real world. Jacob Michael does anything we're saying here: land with you. It leaves me big, I'm a terrible meditated, I've never liked it. My wife is serious meditate her. She was a student

for many years and is very natural to her. The longer I meditate the more Irritable I become I think that's what the buddha had in mind. once had me go to a seven day. The session, and at the end of it I just wanted to kill some I just couldn't stand, it were allowed to talk the entire week. My mind was going crazy. I felt like I was a complete failure. and I dont know that I've recover jet yet me As somebody who is committed meditate, dad, I'm literally about to leave on a ten days out meditation retreat soon? I wonder partly whether that might have been just wrong. form for you. Maybe there is a meditation format. That's looser, for example, I've gotten into looser style retreats where there's a little bit more talking. There's no schedule and the rebellion quotient has gone down like immeasurably,

here. I think that maybe like bianca, I do not like that kind of regimented routine. I feel very restricted and my rebelliousness comes up when I'm told what I have to who and how long I have to do it, so I have meditated I've never got to the point where I enjoyed it. That's changed as a result of this practice in that somehow practising our on method, has made me more comfortable doing ten minute meditations, and I can't tell you exactly why, but much more relaxed. Now I mean on some level I kind of computes for me, because we know from the science of behavior change. First of all that behaviour changes diabolically, difficult and second that for most people the most successful strategy is to start small, and so that's what you ve done with these micro dosing or intravenous mindfulness techniques that your pioneering ear and apparently that's led for you to more cover with a ten minute meditation

that to me that all kind of makes sense it do you think I'm thinking about this correctly. I do I and I think, a kind of taps into the ten percent model right. I basically did something very small: it made a little bit of difference and it opened a door away from me. What about you michael. Are we talking about something that sort of lands for you in terms of this issue that so many people struggle with putting up a meditation abbot I've the suspicion that many people listen to the show? Are you know they enjoy the chauffeur on some level, but saunders this ambient background static of guilt? They feel because you're not doing a lot of the things that we recommend you do so I ate sounds to me like this is really a big part of your motivation. Yeah Finally, as somebody is taught mindfulness to people with chronic pain for many years, I've seen exam We are all talking about here. Is that people really struggle with developing a sustained mindfulness practice and when we

about it from a very formal regimented method, where asking people to sit for an extended period of time every day they really seemed a struggle and then there's all we can buddhism know the second arrow, but there's an effect where people then in themselves up because I feel like they failed out it and then it am even more of a self defeating process and they really struggle and that's what I really love about this practice we had in our studies, approximately three hundred primary care patients and two hundred There's a nurses and the other study many people who had struggled themselves with mindfulness in the past. Were able to really develop a comfortable self support of mine from this practice, which one of the benefits of practices that there is a reward immediately when we have a moment of olive when we get to taste that deep sense of peace, relaxation of presence

and focus on something that we value appreciate and fine amazing. We feel good instantaneously and anecdotally, no people that have struggled with minute action because maybe their neuro divergent, where the a d h d or other, really busy racing minds. There are able to do this because we're just asking people to focus their attention for ten to fifteen seconds again, I I want to go deep into the actual practice, but just staying on a higher level for a second, he said two things in there. Michael did yoga. That made me. Think of you. One is the second arrow that, like I suspect, you beat yourself up for not doing the meditation and the other is neuro divergence. You've had some issues with I dunno. If you have a diagnosis with a d h d, but you've had some

whose, with attention that I think makes this even harder for you definitely and I dont know which one is more powerful. My life probably equal, or at least depending on the day as far as their narrow divergence goes. You know I had it to morrow long time ago, and there are some differences I have and how I read and how I learn that may or may not fall into the category of adhd, but is treated very much the same. But I. With a lot of people who have it and who are diagnosed late. You ve already set up a system of self regulation for all the things that don't do well or well enough, and so that is true, certainly about academics and about achievement related tasks which could include things that are healthy. good for you and you know I happen to live with the sort of Michael phelps of meditation at home. It's very maybe not in europe than sounds a house- that true but yeah, I having anxiety that, if I'm not

Do it well really really? Well, I mean I just don't: do it at all and I am very quick to throw in the towel, which doesn't help me feel better, but it does make me feel like. I can't fail if I'm not going to try, even though that's the opposite of the definition great so there's three things going on there, there's beating yourself up for not doing it, there's neurodiversity and there's perfectionism yes, absolutely yeah and also some rigidity and how one thinks about these practices and I've learned about meditation from you and you went through a phase that was extremely rigid and why I have learned over the last two years. I would say in particular of just being more interested in Ben to learning about ten, certainly exploring buddhism I'll bet with your friends and larger group I realized. It comes in many different forms and that in fact, there are little exercises that I do on the regular that kind of fallen to these categories. You know, including something

we'll talk about regarding just and appreciate for a moment and really causing it taking it in. That is something that I have done. Intermittently over the years but would like. I think I could do that more regularly and derive benefit from it. But it's helpful to know that there are other ways and maybe already kind of doing them defiling. Ok. So let's talk about this process. This technique, this micro, dosing of mindfulness that you guys have come up with. As I understand it, uses but upon this through a moment involving pancake batter the actually I was out in hawaii- is jake shared with his wife Hannah. We spent a week exploring what this micro practice would be and how to build a model. For this why, as you all know, is filled with a lot of extraordinary odds, the guy incredibly peter. Mountains and oceans and the food is spectacular, prozac

in this very ordinary moment when I was making breakfast fur taken Hannah I had put Some pancake batter and just stood there I use it when I make pancakes. I'm multitasking do in other things in the kitchen, but I just have this really profound moment of are watching these pancakes go from a liquid to a solid, and you in a matter of a minute, and I felt that expired we have when we have a moment of our body experiences. You know the tingles ensure These are the hare rises up on our arms and you feel alive and very present and the mind stand still, and I was just making a pancake and so from that we had conversations about what was going on and we created this three step method. We call the armeth and actually using the word, awe into a three step process to help people develop a sustained practice of covering moments of on the ordinary, so that you know, I to go out too.

And can end or listen to and incredible block concert lived too spirits a moment of all, but that we can experience these profound mama the guy in the ordinary moments of our lives and our home, send our places of work while we're in line at the grocery store. We can access. I everywhere we go so walkers through. How do we do this practice we took the word- ah turned it into an acronym, so the a stands for attention and the idea is that we're going to ask people to place our attention on something they value appreciate we're fine to be amazing in some way it does not have to be an object. It can be an object it so could be a memory it could be where you're hugging your partner. There are different ways of accessing. Ah, it just big

ends with something you value appreciate or find amazing. You place your tension there, and then you wait. That's what the w stands for, and you wait just very brief amount of time. But what happens when you wait? Is you go from a hundred per cent of attention to two hundred and ten you just amplify the amount of attention your placing on whatever it is that you're focused on and the eu stands for exhale, and you an acceleration that's a little bit longer than an normal exhalation and when that happens, physiologically you're, activating the vaguest nerve and we'll talk about that? But what ever since patients are in. Your body will be amplified, there's this expansion and because we started by asking you the focus on something you value the sensations in your body or naturally positive once it's like some english on the ball when you're playing pool, we start with a little bit of english, saying, let's go in the direction of something that we value.

and so then, when you experiences sensations they're going to be delightful, and they may be mild or they may be significant. It depends on what the worse of the eye, is but the practices that simple it takes anywhere from. I would say ten to twenty seconds its typically one or two breath cycles, and we asked people to do it multiple times a day. That's one of the beauty of this as it is so quickly, when we did the study. We had people, do it three times a day, but we also saw something called a dose response, which is the more they did it the more benefit they derived. We just drill down on the basic blocking and tackling of the practice. So a w e, I start with a which remind me, was attention attention, you go place your attention on telling you value. Yes, ok! So I'm looking at our one of our cats, Ozzy mandate stretching out in the sun spot beautiful, so placing my attention on him unfurling his belly, so they have chosen what I'm gonna attend to that

wade, meaning I just continue to gaze at the scene and then, after a few seconds, I exhale this does not require a lengthy inhale to proceeded is just an exhale based on a natural and right. That's right! It's funny that you pick the cat, because that's actually what I do, except it involves putting my ear on the belly of one of our cats who's a very he has very loud purr, and it's both the sound and the sort of tactile nature of both his fur and feeling the vibration of the pir on my cheek. That creates this moment of peace. and I really really appreciate- and I do that- a lot actually yeah so you're. Bringing in different senses right, you're, bringing in the kinesthetic the auditory and the visual where Dan was starting with just the visual I thought was gonna use you not the cat.

I knew you cannot please answer solid. It MA am already got that I wasn't gonna use him. I so just to get onto terra firma for me here personally, in the a part we ve talked about using the senses could be visual. That's where I stayed. Bianca talked about feeling the cat, the fur and all Hearing the internal workings. These are all sort of below the level of discursive thought, but is there a skilful edition of thought here, like a might involve ah to consider how many functions of this cats body are happening in the moment. It's a network of networks playing out inside this little packaging and that can provoke too, but in meditation we often vilified thinking. So I'm curious what you think

of this question right, we give you much more latitude so, where you're describing we would call. Sexual are? It's where you have an idea that just sort of blows your mind. You can't quite fathom it And so that's another way to access estate of- are absolutely valid and we encourage people to do it. Some people have a Hence it to access on that way. Other people access it through their senses, we call it sensorial law and then there's a third category which is called interconnected, so sensorial would perhaps be gazing at the grand canyon or just to swing of a tree in your backyard conceptual. I would be thinking about how small we are compared to the apparently infinite universe and interconnected, ah, would be wow. I love it when my wife mixed fond of me in public. Yes, exactly

So when we teach the programme bring encourage people to have a twenty one day practice initially to going the temporary stay of experiencing this new moment of this very exciting The exhilarating to having has now become a tray, about who we are becomes part of our wiring as a person, so that were there in the world and these moments of awe began to happen spontaneously. So we think of this as really training wheels. Helping people learn to We can see in the world in a new way to find these profound moments of on the ordinary and then with time they will just spontaneously rise and bubble up? quite often starting with all the senses as a great way for people to kind of began. The practice we find that sort of the easier for a lot of people as we can just use our vision or what were hearing or feeling gateway into these moments of awe and then expand

and two more levels, including you know, of interconnection, other beans, as well as the concepts that are filled with he's been all around us coming up, Michael after and jake eagle talk about the differences and similarities between ah and traditional mindfulness met. Patient and some practical tips for trying on your daily life. Given how hard have it formation can beat when you ve gotta help thing going on. You just want to make that thing less of a thing, so you can feel like yourself again, but we, have to weigh days for a doctor's employment or shift your whole day around to get into the dockers office that health thing can become even more of a thing and the longer you wait, the worse it gets so instead maybe try amazon clinic of virtual health care service that helps you quickly and discreetly get treatment for common health conditions such as scientists, infections, uti eyes

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At the time only add sleep, number stores or sleep number dot com see store for details as an old school. I may not know. I haven't been meditating that long, but I'll take some poetic license for the sake of the question as an old school sort of buddhist meditator, I'm wondering like how much mindfulness is in this really because one of the The many benefits of mindfulness is a kind of meta cognition. You learn by sitting and trying to focus on one thing: usually that's your breath and then you get distracted a million times, and you start again and again and again and in the process of seeing how wild the mind is. You learn not to be so owned by all of your neurotic impulses and ancient story lines. Listen as I often joke, you're planning a homicide

if you're planning a glorious, expletive filled speech, you're going to deliver to your boss over and over and over you get carried away by the wildness and inanity and insanity of the ego? And hopefully, what that develops, for you is the ability, when you're off the cushion and you notice a bolt of rage rising up through your solar plexus into your or cranium that you can see. Oh that's that I'm getting angry right now, but I don't need to inhabit this impulse. I don't actually need to become angry. I can allow it to arise and pass away, and so I'm just curious, I'm not quite sure I'm hearing that benefit in what you're describing I I don't think He accomplished the same thing that you're describing dan. I think that is distinct from The traditional mindfulness practices will

we're doing is different. We're doing a few things were creating a pattern interruption. So if you feel that bolt of anger coming up, but you have a micro dosing practice. Where are you have access to our many times in that moment. You know you have the ability to access are so you can interrupt negative thought. You can interrupt negative emotions. You can give yourself a break its like a respite from being on autopilot and when I say is that less a tiger is really chasing you true fight flight. You can insert a moment of awe at any. Even if you having an argument with your spouse, you can insert a moment of ought actually what's better is to access a moment of all before you have

It might be a tense conversation, but I don't think it creates the same kind of metacognition that you are describing, which is very typically associated with most mindfulness practices. Yeah. I would imagine the other skill. It does not train his concentration focus the ability to stay on an object for longer and longer periods of time without getting distracted again. This is a classic meditation in the buddhist school benefit, our skills that you can develop over time and again, this is not to denigrate the awe technique at all. It's just it's interesting to see that different this is obvious and some level, but the different practices bear different fruit right, and this is also different in that it is so readily available. The benefits are different, and so are the applications. In other words, I can do this in twenty seconds,

and I can shift my physiology. I can shift my mood very very quickly and that's not true of most of the traditional mindfulness practices. One of the things I appreciate this practice is that it so portable and on the guy You know like you down, I've been doing a very low term a mind from this practice for almost thirty years and a lot of ten day retreats as well, and what I love about this I don't have to have the conditions of european and acquired space on a retreat or my home to practice. deeper dive. I feel like I can really get a significant dose of mindfulness in just ten to fifteen seconds and repeatedly throughout the day and take this wherever I go, I can be at the airport, which, for many people are very stressful place and I can find and a lot of are lacking

if the people in the line at the cis, a check point or in all the architecture of airports, and some of them are just so incredibly beautiful and on spiering and all if the technology of being on a plane like all all around there's. This ought to be held, and I love that this practice is so portable and doesn't require being on the mat so to speak, and I've known you Michael since love. Thank you said sixteen years we ve each other and during that time I remember when you are a serious not a tighter. My observation of you then, compared to after you started using the method, is you are much more serious? I dont think you accessed joy war humor as much as you do since starting this practice is to me, you seem much lighter yeah. Would it we were that there was a lot of seriousness in traditional practice and I was part of a two teacher training programme, its spare rock and a lot of focus on suffrage in traditional

actors and the others value. There is a lot of value in a traditional, deep, diver practice, But what I love about the matter This is a mindfulness, is that this is a practice that is so easily accessible for everyone. For example, I used in my patient care room when I start a visit with a patient, we And about ten to fifteen seconds, haven't a moment of altogether weathers like another piece of art on the wall or looking out the window we share our moments and it's a beautiful way to become very present to connect with other people because eyes, contagion. when we share our or with other people we inspire then you know when I heard earlier the aka sharing about the cat in I could reflect back about my dog and all that I have been in her presence. And so I love how even conversations of art can inspire offer each of us? How would you define it seems

intuitive. But I'm wondering what your definition of all would be because I thought about it a lot in reflecting on difficult times, especially in training in medicine, and you know when you share all these horrible stories a man might be like. While that sounds terrible, were you miserable and I would think no, but I wasn't. I had some of the happiest times as well, but then happy didn't really quite cut it, and I realize what was was my off for medicine and the human body, and all these wonderful man? maria using incredible nuggets that really carried me through all of it especially during times or I could have easily bailed yeah thanks a lot since then I love with what you're sharing so in vienna, medicine, and I do a lot of in challenging times with patience those deep intimate times when

You are connecting with someone over as a typical diagnosis or a prognosis that can all be wonderful sources of are even in the challenging times, see us about how we define and and our book the definition we use an emotional experience in which we sense being in the presence of something that transcends our normal perception of the world. So what tat means for me practically? is that when I open my eyes to see things that I'm value in his shade in our finding amazing. I started world in a new way, where I experience a lot of vastness and connection and then also changes the way that I perceive things and react to things. It really shifts my normal perception of the world, so we think of you know

his extraordinary moments of awe, let's say, were at the edge of the grand canyon or may were witnessing. Do you know the birth of a child or attending to the death of a patient at the hospital? These are these profound moments where we can experience a sense of that vastness of that action and in those moments that also gives us a taste of like a shift of reality. It gives us a sense like a deeper connection, the sense of presence, that's market from our usual automatic pilot of being in the world. Do you want to add anything to that chick want go back to something that damned mentioned. he's talking about traditional mindfulness in one of the things I observed both in you might, oh, and also when I was part of a buddhist community for a few years, there's just the paradox of the serious matter taters taking themselves and their practices seriously. And always tended amusing, because it seemed a contradictory with the teachings.

and what I notice in our method. The arm method is there's an opposite tendency. Were I can't take myself to seriously. I am just so aware of the vastness of everything around me and I feel less signal. again but not in a negative way, I just don't take myself is seriously, and I find some great relief in that as someone who, by the way, tends to be very serious. While I take what you're saying very well, I mean I had bianca referenced before I went through a period of time that I I can still slide back into it, of taking myself and the practice way too seriously and being super super committed, and I kind of think about this as an intermediate problem. In other words, if you go on a ski slope, you get the beginners the intermediate and then the experts black diamonds. My experience interviewing hundreds of men

patient eaters on this show and interacting with them in real life. The common denominator- and I have said this before publicly so I'm apologizing now for me- repetitive, but the common denominator among the greats is that they do not take themselves seriously and this whole self seriousness, I think happens in the middle or even at the end of the beginning, when you're going to go hard at this thing and you just don't have a sense of humor about it. Yet anyway, that's just a long way of saying. I completely agree with what you're saying and I've been on the wrong side of this joke. Personally, I fear that we, this discussion has been great. I I fear I've committed a little malpractice in terms of being the interviewer here, because I'd like to say more about the practicalities of this practice. You have some examples in your book, including some some practices that have names like home as a museum sliding into slumber.

Where are you connecting with strangers? I'd love to sort of walk through some practical examples here, so that people really can take this out into the world after having heard this, I don't know what malpractice you committed, but I've really enjoyed the interview so far, so I haven't done enough, though today because I'm being south korea, I think so so in the book we teach people the basic method, which is really quite simple and then at the the last section of the book, Actually, my wife wrote these practices. Some of them are just moments of art that are just serve instantaneous experiences law that only last ten seconds, but she also took people on a journey where She said you can have extended moments of are so, for example, taking a shower can become

extended moment of awe, as you really pay attention to the feeling of the water on your body and maybe different parts of your body and maybe they're temperature changes, and she has this beautiful capacity to be very. Where of her senses and for Hannah. This is very natural for me. I needed a process to do that, because I'm in my head all the time and The method gave me a sequence. Something to pay attention to. That would allow me to get more in touch with my senses and that's what the practices in the last part of the book are helping people do. Can we walk through them? Let sir, with home a museum. The idea there is to walk through your home and look for objects that may evoke inexperience. If I could be a photograph, it could be a gift, something somebody gave you

it could be a piece of furniture and you remember, inexperience. You had of play with your dog. While you run that piece of furniture ii can be all sorts of things, he was had his birthday recent and I gave her a chess sat and the pieces are made in greece and they are of a particular period, a particular style of art that shit, buzz, love, and so sitting in our home. And when I look at it, it evokes memories of when we got married, which is increase, which is where we learned to play chess, and all of that is contained in this object. That sitting on the table, and I can walk past it three times and not notice it. Where I can stop for fifteen seconds, really pay attention

wait for a moment have that longer than normal exhalation and have a sense of just how it is insist, release of energy and my spine. I feel my neck release when I do that, and it's that simple, so I'm walking through the house I see bianca stepfather is an incredible artist. Shut up Varner pfeiffer, and we have a lot of his work around the house. I might stop pay attention to the beauty of earners work weight, as is great creativity, seeps in exhale. It's a twenty second pause in the middle of my day, but it's doing for me all of the things that you're you're describing right. It's resetting your nervous system, its altering your physiology, most likely at shifting your state of consciousness. You are probably walking through the house with some intention to get somewhere to do something, but you take twenty seconds to be

remarkably present and there's not a lot of thinking involved in this when you actually enter into, the positive emotion of are there's a sense of time was this: words, go away in one of the mistakes that people often make is a they try to hard and be. They then try to put their experience into words and when you do that, you're reducing the experience you're, making it smaller just to allow yourself to have this experience, that's very kinesthetic and emptying or a quieting of the mind, and just let that be what it was, don't try to dissect it do. Try too hard when you do this at home bianca. I was just thinking about the fact that and no it doesn't come from trying and I've been doing this a lot with our son recently, who is growing up way too fast

and I just find myself looking how the contour of his face is changing, and you know his smell. Everything is changing and I've been very cognisant recently of just see yet and taking an actual moment to kind of literally read it in and just acknowledge it I'm morning a little bit and the same time, but I suppose that's therapeutic, but yeah he's taken over the cats. For me- well. This is a really great. How old is your son? He is eight and a half since a great example, because I think you mention morning a little bit right. and this is one of the really unique things about is that you can experience. Ah, while morning you can experience are while being anxious. You can experience all welcome. unhappy and that's a very unusual thing. Most emotions are singular in nature and you go from one to the next, but I can be a compliment

that you experience while having other emotions, and it's almost like her in a way. I think it's a better emotion that, on top of the other emotions and changes in the nature of them, I love that so much and it speaks to m m having some headaches and neurological issues, and the thing that keeps me from imploding is wondering what process is going on beneath an I have offered us. It really just crystallizes for me now how it really can coexist in its distinct from happiness. You dont need necessarily to be happy, but you can also be unhappy for lack of a better term and in are exactly pre, amazing jack Jake, and I came about this practice. My daughter was in her last year of high school at home and I'm a single parent and pretty raised on my own and so

There was a really intense time for me of a lot of morning, so I understand what that's like as you watch your child go through their maturation and become eventually young adults and independent individuals out there in the world, and so that our method was really powerful that last year, because, as galicia to when we have these moments of, are we experienced time expanding em? research on not our research by other people's research on issues that are frames per second of what we observe goes at a faster clapping of the amount of data being taken, and so our perception of time expands from. We have moments of awe and it was such a powerful way. From a really safer and enjoy that last year, with her at home together and have a good at different events of hers. I would just be an awe the whole time and now I just feel like some of these experiences water, pull a game of hers that would their very fast pace games. But I would experience again, though, at last for

the minutes more like an hour and a half to two hours, because when you're in ah, you experienced I'm dilating and I got to really enjoy that last year with a much deeper sense of presents an awareness and heart centred ness ripe. When we are and we its approach was collar. Pro social motion so cultivates within us, a sense of connection of love of kindness, compassion, eyes, really justice. master emotion that has so many positive benefits that filter out threat is another aspect that Michael because if I'm having a hard time, I will access are, and it doesn't make the difficult time feel like it. Well, longer, I simply lose track of time, and so I think of it mostly for

me as a timeless ness and so you're talking about inexperience, where it felt like time stretched out what I often experiences time just drops away. I lose track of time completely are there other practices that we should talk about a run through for the listener? Am I listed a bunch earlier? We don't have to hit all of them, but just to give you a chance to put as much practical meat on the bus here as possible. Will the one thing I would say is that it helps to have defined periods where you do the practice so for me. I wake up in the morning. Take your things brush my teeth flush. My face, but I always then go outside and have a moment of, are, as it were, to start my day, I always have a moment of all in the middle of the day. Usually when I take a lunch break and I, he's do a moment of awe before I go to bed at night? I got side with the stars if their visible- and I have a moment of art,

those are kind of the bare minimum in terms of at least three times a day. We encourage people it's more than that, but I think setting up some specific times when your practice is very helpful. Are there other things, Michael, that you think are helpful for people in terms of developing a practice gee. I completely agree with you Jake and what your sharing I will just encourage people to find some habit. They already do on a daily basis and then to match that with em one of our so for me either, my day with making a cup of coffee, many of us beginner days with a cup of tea or juice, or something, and so I find moments of on the process of making if the weather is open in the bag and smelling the beans and taken a deep in her, the roma or watching

Water boil and a kettle I enjoy using a french press. I can see the granules floating in the water and then pushing down, and I can have a moment of Allah that so what things were already doing, we can really pair them with moments of awe. Perhaps you take your on a daily walk or taking your kids to school. and giving them a hug when you say goodbye. That could be a moment of are one of my favorite extended practices in our book that we talk about is about giving with the intention of are attached to it and in our lifetimes will give many thousands of hogs to people to people and most of the time we do in just doing it automatically without being fully press. And aware of what's happened in an a hug when its mass, whether an experience of awe is what we all? We know an orgasm it such a heightened experience of the union. Can a an emotionally when you really gets her feel that you seen us of being fully present and bring in your full cell to hug,

little less messy than last year, that I'll pay for that and the aka. Let me turn to you because they shared some pretty good ideas for getting this habit into your life. But I'd be curious. Candidly, honestly, right before we sat down, you were saying I kind of do this anyway, but you said it's wrong bring to do it. That's the hard part. So how motivated you fail to do this now and don't worry about her in their feelings? Goes there and zoom in they can't hurt you anyway, and and do you think you could up your cadence of this practice that you already kind of formerly do it, I'm definitely motivated, and I also wouldn't say that I'm formalised technique as their describing, I think, that's extremely helpful. The way you do it and I tend to do it when I need to break some cycle of something unfair,

and whether the feeling or a thought- and so I motivated dan's, looking at me in assuming that maybe the thoughts about him and maybe they sometimes are, but I think at scheduling them regularly through the day, as opposed to just waiting for a moment of need makes a lot of sense enough that it totally. I mean I just think about this- a lot because habit formation is so hard. Isn't that's true? If you're talking about meditation or sleep hygiene, he nor exercise or intuitive eating, whatever all the stuff we talk about in the show, I have some guilt because you just piling more things and peoples to do less self compassion whatever it is. It is hard to change your patterns in routines, and one of the hardest part is what you are calculated earlier. How.

To remember to do this in one of my little sticks that I'm old I always go off on here- is that one of the first translations of the word that we now called mindfulness sati is the original word and poly. One of the first translations is remembering or recollecting, and that is just so hard to do because we're programmed for you rushing in taking things of art to do list and worrying and ruminating and all the other stuff, and so we can have millions of guests on the show, as we do talk about life, changing potentially life changing practices just like how do you remember to do it? I think for me the fact it feels good, I mean plain and simple and that I really I am awed by ah, like I find it fast. eating and really aspiration outages find it everywhere because it does exist. I talk about you, issues with exercise regimens. Will there too varied

exercises. Right that I love- and I don't hesitate to do them when I'm healthy enough to do them in that so cycle employees and I do not like exercising otherwise so- now you find something that you love, even if that doesn't mean you energy to do it every day, but I wouldn't miss classified been signed up for one, so I think me tried, sending an alarm three times a day and see how it changes. You're. Looking at me, It's just a laughing because I'm thinking about how our exercise tastes like the blue. Yes, possible. Yes, a letter like, but we were, we should move onto croquet and long been very lucky that I mean the best exercise you can do, is the one that you like and that rustling sound. So you know I'm just messing with anyway, so I feel like this is that for me, as I'm listening to both of you, I was just making some doubts.

Create this all three hours model, and what I was thinking is that, because this has is such a brief practice, it takes ten seconds. We encounter no resistance and with many things where we're trying to form a good habit, there's this natural resistance either it takes time or effort and what we're doing essentially takes no time and barely takes any effort. The second are, is what the was talking about, which is there's an immediate reward. I do it, I feel better and then the Third one is remembering, and this Michael mentioned earlier after you do this for some period of time, there's a myth that you can form a new habit and twenty one days. I personally believe that, but this use it as a working metaphor at some point in time after you do this three times a day for a week or two or three or four at some point? Ah moments,

I spontaneously, and so I dont need to remember and so Michael originally came up with this idea that he could practice moments of all, while at a red light he was going to make the most of his time. If he's at a red light, he is going to practice. while metabox and then and then not. Why go he told me that now, when he said a red light, it just happens. It's not like yesterday oh yes, I want to have a moment of law. It's just become what he would call a trace it just how he responds to being at a red light, and so I think that we have gone fairly far in overcoming some of the obstacles that are required to develop a habit. How long it takes to do that. I dont know I think it varies for people

coming up Michael and jake talk about what the science says about the benefits of their off method and whether or not bianca, and I were convinced to give the method a try ourselves Well, let's you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one arab will always find the best of what you love for something new to discover. You will discover thousands of hot from popular favourites to exclusive new series, guided wellness pro I'm theatrical performances, comedy and exclusive audible, originals for top celebrities, renowned experts and exciting new voices in audio As an honourable member, you can choose one title amounts to keep from the entire catalogue, including the latest best sellers and rhythm. Sits. I've just decided to start listening to Stephen kings dark too.

First series, based on my husband's recommendation, he's listened to all eight wish me luck. New members can try out a bowl free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try out a bowl free for thirty days, audible, dot, com, slashed, ten percent. The mighty fix makes it easy to discover new sustainable products each month the mighty fixed sends one full size product, so you can make changes like cutting down on plastic or stopping the use of so many paper towels, they send personalized fixes based on the changes you want to make. Shipping is always free and you can cancel At any time my family and I recently received a few samples of the products that mighty fix customers might risk

I need to get some reusable snack bags, which we already happened to use. It was great to get some more of those. There were some nice dishcloths which will be put to good use around here and we also got drier balls, which you can use, if the dryer, instead of chemical, dryer sheets and they're, also pretty good for playing catch with your eight year old son, as I found out, the body fixes thirteen dollars a month, but you can get your first month for five dollars at the mighty fix dot com, slash happier, that's the mighty fix dot com, slash happier! Well, so let's talk about the science, I'm very interested. Let me start with a bit of a skeptical question, a good nature. Please skeptical question the book is called the power of awe and then the subtitle is overcome, burn out an anxiety, ease, chronic pain, fine clarity and purpose in less than a minute per day, and I read that owes like really so walk me through these

I am alarmed Michael take the lead on this. I just want to say that we were both embarrassed by the title, I've had that experience with publishers so often ives. I've made the joke, and this is true that on my first book ten percent happier, they honestly tried to bargain me up to twenty or thirty percent happier. They also have sent us up the bianca remembers me going through the roof. Notwithstanding my meditation habit of a book title b, being now, that's what they want in my book to be called. So I get it publisher, reserve well intentioned but term. Sometimes misguided ass. He ass a jack, and I were definitely feeling a bit uncomfortable with it had all the way initially came out, but well, let's talk about the science

and share with you what we found at our studies and see what you may be think might be a good title though he maybe might wanna do for the next edition of the phone yeah. Well, the power of I have no problem with that. So I mean, I don't think you need, maybe a new subtitle, the subtitle exactly yeah, so we partnered up with decker keltner at the greater good, center and he's really thought of. As the grandaddy of our research, he wrote the first paper back in two thousand and three with the Jonathan hate that started explore the science of awe and setting it. As nick emotion prior to our research, most of the research- and I was looking at extraordinary- are so they had. Participants in these studies go into virtual reality. Experience experienced themselves as

can astronaut and having the overview effect to have a moment of odd and study and how that impact on their psychology or the sociology of the participants. So what about our researchers that we talk people this twenty one day, our method. We enrolled about three hundred primary care, patience and two hundred healthcare professionals at the height of the pandemic. We first connected with decker columnar in February two thousand and twenty right before the pandemic started and shared with him. Some of our initial data the pandemic said. We reached out occur again and said: hey we'd love to do a study, with your lab and teach this to patients, as well as health care practitioners who really struggling at the height of the pandemic so we launched for studying. Generously thousand twenty really at the head of the pandemic, and we we talk, I assume that twenty one day I met the programme with the proposed measures,

while the daily diaries that the study participants completed and looking at the big picture in terms of our data collection wicked depression, anxiety, loneliness burn out, so soybean and people's ability to cultivate a my father's practice, the moment of our data outcomes was. We saw a thirty six percent reduction in depression in the general plan, elation- and this held true as while for the healthcare professionals with a thirty five percent reduction in depression, symptoms which is equal to what we see and traditional therapies for depression according to behave, therapy or taking medications such as a certain area. you can have it shares our results in to match up to that with a pretty effective methodology, and we think of this, I don't seem like a medical intervention as a tool that we can teach our patience, something there

use. My clinical practice, you know enough teaching people. How do I use ought to help with chronic pain, as was anxiety and oppression. and then one difference. Michael is you know no side effects and, and it's free right exactly there's no patent on this and its freely available to everyone. Did you open. Your eyes is really ought to be had everywhere. Even if you live in a big city like new york, there's ought be had just looking outside I, the pavement we can be in awe of weeds grow through the cracks in the ground. It be an aha moment, it's like a lot more about some of the data and what we found looking at him We saw a twenty one percent reduction anxiety, pretty much across both groups we saw decrease and loneliness as well. We compared to our data to a different study that was done through a health system on the east coast and where they had taught doctors mindfulness practice of harmfulness six minutes a day. over four weeks, which was the same duration of our study.

And they saw a lot of seven percent improvement in those positions with their experience of loneliness and we saw fit in person reduction allowing with a similar study design, but Teaching the method instead, we saw decreases and burn out with, Healthcare professionals improvements the inability to manage stress, wellbeing, and also creases and other chronicle symptoms like chronic pain, headaches and product gastrointestinal distress as well. So that kind of pretty much sums up our outcome: data from our studies in reading some excerpts of your book. There is a lot of talk about some terms that I couldn't personally define like sight, o kinds and information and with some mention of safety, I found a compelling. Could you hold forth on all of the above yeah sure, when I think about cider clients, I'm actually really in awe of what they are and their history, so you know the earth

is four billion years old and we ve had single cellular organisms that started on this planet a little bit over a billion years ago that when these first organism came out of the planet, the way they would communicate with each other we're through side of kinds. So the sight of kind system is really is all this. Life on earth, and so the thought of kinds are basically in two different camps. There's the signs a tell us that we're safe, and these are the sort of kinds that will tell different sailor processes in our bodies to build health. New tissue to support our immune system, to build a muscle, mass another's, decided kinds that are or were called threats at two kinds: you're saying there is a problem, there is an infection, there's an injury and it sends out all the different communications to the different cells in our in system to get on guard and to go after and fight and infection,

really interesting and resource not done by us, but by our colleagues that you see berkeley, and this is in a two thousand fifteen paper in the journal of emotion. They looked at the different positive emotions and their impact on our health, specifically on the secretion of these inflammatory cytokines. And the most significant, I guess started. The boss of the crew here is was called interleukin sex, which implicate and a lot of different chronic health conditions like heart disease than they had people experiencing different positive emotion and what was found in terms of the data collection and drawing serum levels of people's blood, looking at these different emotions with the inflammatory sided kinds was that I was the only positive emotion that statistically lowered people's levels of interleukin sex. These inflammatory signed a kind processes in the body is part of what you're saying here that we feel

safer one were regularly getting and that that can have an anti inflammatory impact. Well don't know in terms of our particular methodology. If the method directly lowers information, inflammatory satisfies cause that technique wasn't being studied and that two thousand and fifteen study, but because we are teaching people how to access moments of on the ordinary and to ask them to repeat we might produce them throughout the day and from evidence that we know that these moments of awe lower experts as a depression, anxiety which are neuroinflammatory conditions and more and more we're understanding with mental illness that they are neuroinflammatory conditions as well, as we saw a decrease in chronic pain levels that This may be one of the mechanisms that produce the results that we saw in our research studies in the study that was done in two thousand and fifteen the primary.

I that I took away, was we think of positive emotions as having a beneficial effect physiologically and psychologically. But what stood out was that all was unique in it's ability to decrease inflammation. Other positive emotions were not providing the same result, and this is very interesting because, as a therapist for years, when I'm working with people who are we're dealing with some kind of disease, whether it's psychological or physical. I'm thinking about how can I help this person relax? How can I induce happiness? How can I have them experience more joy, but I never thought how can I help this individual experience more? All that wasn't even in my consciousness and now, although I'm semi retired, when I do work, it's very much in the forefront of my mind and when I work with people I will induce estate of awe, which always shifts their perspective on whatever issue

problem there. Have it doesn't matter what the content is. Somebody will come to see me there about an issue I'll ask them to take a moment to experience. Ah, then, we'll go back and revisit the issue and their perspective has shifted and research is referred to as cognitive accommodation. What that means is that have a new way of understanding, something that I have thought about previously. But I now see it in a new light and some expanding my understanding or my perspective, and I find this to be really valuable tool in assisting people and not only individuals but also couples. I've done a lot of couples, counselling and couples who have a conflict. They'll have some tension I'll ask him to take a moment to experience

though, and it may not be related to one another but individually take a moment we're going to take thirty seconds, I'm going to teach you how to experience the awe now we're going to go back and talk about whatever the issue was, and both people are in a different state. The way I think of it is they're in a different state of consciousness. They have more resources available to them to powerful and not really spoken about in the world, psychology are not very much we're almost at a time here. Bianca do you have any closing thoughts or questions. I'm really excited by this method. You have and I'm gonna use it. Will you use it then? Absolutely yes yep. I am definitely intrigued. You've referred to it as the future of mindfulness this sort of microdosing. I might quibble a little bit with the term because I'm not sure how much technically speaking mindfulness is in here, but I definitely could see it as like for people who are struggling to boot up a meditation habit which might include

from this meditation. This is something you can do, instead or as a precursor it just a way to start training the mind, given the fact that the more formal practices can seem Dante said yes absolutely, and neither Michael where I came up with that. The idea that this is the future of mindfulness came from dagger, I dont think Michael or I would have been people making that claim and the reason the dagger made it is because he sees us in a world. That's just people going so fast, so overwhelmed so busy that they're not taking the time to have a mind from this practice and to the degree that this overlaps with mindfulness and I would say, to overlaps because it takes a little time

He was suggesting that this may be what allows people to practice while living in such a busy and demanding world, and I will agree with that- I mean I make it a practice, never to disagree with decker you, his name has come up a bunch just to say deck has been on the show a couple of times. I consider him a friend he's been very influential in my thinking on many things and we will put links to his prior appearances on the show, because they will be great pairings to talk like a so with this interview for sure, gentlemen, before I let you go any final thoughts, you want to put out there. We ve talked a lot today about a personal practice with awe, but really we think that this practice is something that goes well beyond. Personal and can be really thought of the practice. That can be a positive impact in the world and that if enough people are practising these moments of are that they really spell out that they have an effect of being contagious with those that around us.

If we think about the world around us and a lot of the challenges that face in right now, Can you be in awe of different cultures and have different people around the planet and them or want to kill them now, how can in all of the natural world and harm destroy it. How can we be in of life itself and that there's one miracles all around us on a daily basis. and you know not see that when we're in it changes the nature of every conversation from the person all to the good relations of a community to that larger of the nation in the world, and so well. We really see a bigger call to action with this practice as such as an individual practice, but one that we see can really positively transform the role if enough people were to practice and defined, ah and their ordinary moments of their lives, that could potentially be one of the key, not the solution, but

way to help to make the world a much safer and better place for everybody. Guy great mean that the personal is political in that way or that I sometimes joke. There's a geo political case to be made for you to get your shit together because for you can be a note of sanity and an unsafe and insane world often so. Thank you both for your work. Thank you very much for coming on the show and thank you bianca for me, and my wife and fact checking me and make fun of me in real time, appreciated. Pinky, I'm glad you joined us bianca. Thank you so much for having me nice nice to meet both of you, a nice job down, appreciate the way you connect. Thank you. I appreciate that very much thanks again to Michael Amsterdam and jake eagle. Of course, thank you to bianca for class and the whole joint up, thanks as well to you for listening, go, give us a rating and review. I know every pie cast host asks for that, but there's a reason, because it really helps us with the algorithm. So please do me a solid, and

finally, and most importantly, to everybody who worked so hard on the show. Ten percent happier is produced by rails, ackerman, justine, davy, Lauren smith and terry Anderson, DJ, cashmeres, senor, producer research, nitrogen is our senior editor and- Regular is our executive producer scoring in mixing by Peter bonaventure of four violet audio and we get our theme music from nick thorburn of the great envy rock band islands and its government coming out. I just noticed on itunes, so you can actually here at least one of the songs. Now, if you gotta check out islands, where were you get your music Was he right back here on Wednesday, four, a brand new episode, a prime members? You can listen to it. Percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music, downloading

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