How To Handle A Narcissist (Including, Maybe...Yourself) | Keith Campbell | Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris Transcripts

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Narcissism and the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. We also talk about the difference between grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism. What to do if you're married to a narcissist, how to identify your own narcissism and what he calls this cpr method for narcissism control. So there's a lot here plus despite the heaviness of his chosen research area. Keith is a pretty funny guy. So here we go Keith Campbell, alright Keith nice to meet you thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me down, lesher, I'm a little trepidation, it's going to this cause. I feel like you're, going to diagnose me as a narcissist and within the first thirty seconds here, but will say: oh I don't diagnose anyone, I'm a researcher. I leave that to the practitioners. That's good, okay, cool! I can breathe. Let me just first get a sense of who you are. Why did you become interested in narcissism

Well, it's been a long time. I most social personality psychologist day study, then graduates, whoa, and there is a big interest in self enhancement- turns out that most people think they're better than they are. So. If I go to a class and say you don't at ten point scale, how attractive are you? The average person will sam about a six or seven You know if I say: oh, how humble are you the average person gotten better, six or seven on humility, yeah, I'm pretty humble, I'm not the most tumble, but I'm pretty humble and most people you're a little better driver than average. So our ego inflates just what it does is an interesting question But when I started looking out at backing grad school, I realize some people do this more than others, so some people are actually pretty nice. Some people are truly humble and some people are sort of arrogant and full of themselves and end narcissism is a tool that trade of narcissism is a way to look at this, its away to understand ye go a little better than without using its debts.

Early. Why I got into it I mean for your interest, a sort of interested in non attachment and the non self mobutu's perspective, and I couldn't figure out how to eddie that at all and narcissism it kind of gives the other way. So, instead of studying, you know, lack of ego, let's just go the other way in steady ego and sort of figure out how ego works and that sort of some of the reasons I got into it. I guess I have suspected you to give me some horror story about being. You know raised by a horrible snark, assist stepfather or something like that, look. I struggle with Vigo just like everyone, but this isn't a for researchers me search kind of situation. I just found it really interesting. So what is narcissism because the word gets thrown around a lot by, me. But I am keenly aware that I do not actually know what I'm talking about. This is most word likes. It people throw around a lot, and usually they mean somebody is kind of a jerk and maybe

little, what full of themselves and that's not bad for a definition. But when we talk about in research, it's more complicated and really there sort of three phoenicians the primary one and in the one most puber time about when they talk about narcissism, is a personality trade. That means there's people who were high on the trade and lower the trade. Most people are somewhere in the middle and it's a personality trade that is a combination of maybe a lack of empathy, maybe a sense of entitlement or some callousness to people but at the same time some drive and ambition, and maybe charisma and charm and extroversion. So you get these interesting people who are both a little bit callous a little bit selfish, but they're are also extroverted and outgoing and a gigantic, and they end up being your boss at work. They end up being if the person you date because you met them and they seem so confident and charming, so you end up marrying them or getting relationships with them. You watch people like this who rise into celebrity status, because this is a good temperament for being

library. Iron man in those marvel movies is a good grandiose, narcissist and theirs is form of narcissism, which we about in the literature, but you don't see it as much in the world except in clinical said into which is vulnerable narcissism, and this has that sense of entitlement and selfishness just like grandiose narcissism, the same sort of core of self centered, nestor self importance, but you're also vulnerable and It'll be easily threatened yourself, esteems unstable your little and secure, so these vulnerable, narcissist, more insecure, narcissus, end up becoming so depressed and anxious, because they think people should appreciate how wonderful they are. People should acknowledge the genius but they're, not very outgoing they're, not very confidence to the end of depressed and then have been therapy for depression, because no one understands how great the are. So those you get these two faces of narcissism. These

one is more stable and depressed, and once more grandiose and like a boy, charismatic and charming one run The world one is going to therapy and when these things become extreme, when you get narcissism, that's extreme and inflexible, so your kind of it I know it for somebody like you, yet you go on t v and are confident and charismatic and it's great and then you go home and you do the same thing to your kids and you I did I wanna play in here like. Let me tell you about my day get. Then it becomes a disorder. It starts to mess up your life because your narcissism is so extreme and it's so inflexible that it can become a disorder which we call narcissistic. Personality disorder and p d. So that's another way. People use narcissism in the clinical ter, but that Very rare disorder, sir time one or two percent, and maybe people live and p d. When we I about it. In the research world is a little more complicated than the normal sort of use of the term complicate a fascinating, so it sounds like

everybody somewhere on the spectrum. Yes, and then you got one or two percent: that's the indian p d territory, but in a spectre, is interesting because as I was listening to you, talk about grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. I was thinking while there are times in my life that I can interpret. back to from now where I would fit both of those description absolutely and they can go together. They don't correlate too much. So what that means is people are grandiose can also be vulnerable. People are vulnerable, can be grandiose. Often you see it as a condition of this right word, but a state of affairs where people will vacillate between grandiosity and vulnerability. I do this sesar and we'll be on this podcast, maybe a legend, and then I'm like I'm the most. We personally like a fat? Am I hate myself then, like I'm gonna be rich? My guide, everyone hates me. You kind of vast lay between deflation and inflation and that something you see with both forms

narcissism. I vulnerability a little more gives its associate with iraq, racism anxiety, which is why I do it more, but yet both of those poles are pretty active. So I once heard a critic of modern psychotherapy describing it as providing understanding without relief so that far you ve given me some understanding. But is there any thing to be done about this? Is it useful or in any way a relief to be able to understand where I may fit on the narcissism spectrum at an given moment or where anybody in my orbit or anybody, I'm watching on t v may fit on the spectrum. Yet this is a great phrase and that reminds me of freud. Send you the goal is to turn neurotic suffering into everyday unhappiness. You know the goal be, and it doesn't sound like that greater goal. You know just to be sad

like I'm a researcher. I like I like to understand things, even if it doesn't do any good, but I really do think it matters. So if I'm deal with my own narcissism and I able to break down what's going on with me, I can maybe fix it better. So if my narcissism involves a sense of entitlement, if that's what really gets man to trouble, I can work on grass attitude and to god, I'm so entitled all the time. Why don't? I have a little bit of gratitude for my life. Maybe that'd make me a little bit happier person. If my problem is I'm really insecure and I'm not

willing to be carpet. Maybe I gotta be more confident in sort of treat the vulnerability that way. If I take too many risks, because I'm too grandiose or I'm you know, I'm taking financial risks all the time because of my confidence and overconfidence. Perhaps when I need to do say, god that risk taking is a little problem, maybe I need to hire somebody to double check my risk taking diet and so by understanding that how narcissism works in the pieces, I think it allows you to address it in a little more sophisticated way than just saying. Yeah, you're kind of full of yourself don't be fully yourself, so I think there's some good to it, but you know I'm in the business and I'm not I dunno. If I can convince anyone else, will you did write a whole book about, Was that before this new book, the new signs of narcissism, he did write a whole book about? You know how to handle it. If you're married to a narcissist, I wrote a book when you love a man who loves himself when I started doing this work keep that book away from my wife.

That's why I wrote it, because I kept going out with people and that's what every woman would say guys didn't care as like yeah, my wife's, pretty hot. I guess she's narcissistic, I don't care, but the women would talk about it all the time, and so I wrote a book really for women, but you know it's a little bit outdated, but that's the reason yeah. So what are the tools that we can use? You know if again, we don't have to go unless we ve got a true and pity on our hands. It might be useful to them. About where our partner is on the spectrum any given moment and what are the tools we can use to sort of provide ourselves and them with some relief yeah. I think that useful to think of it. I dont think going about and analyzed in your partners per sniffily. All the type is really but you're in it. long time, maybe just make it work, but I think what you're saying is you're in a mirror

with somebody you're got a relationship with somebody that it's not a clinical disorder, but narcissism is a problem. So my wife's married to me- and maybe I go look- I've got to put the kids second, because my career is first, and I do over and over and over and it starts causing problems. Maybe I have issues with conflict, so my wife says: hey kid. You know You could be a little nicer and I'm like why you tell me what to do. I'm doing all this work, you're lorries blaming me, maybe you can be nicer. So maybe the narcissism played into conflict in my relationship is I'm not willing to come to soften up and take criticism, and so I think, you're standing in those kind of rough spots in the relationship and where the ego is getting in there and messing it up, can be really important and being able to just talk about. It is just ego and standing and breaking down. It is useful to. I can imagine, if you're dating somebody who's or married to somebody who's, pretty advanced on the spectrum of narcissism that bringing this up would be tough.

Yeah, it's very challenging and I think one of the mistakes people make potentially is globalizing at invoke aside. So I'm gonna say it's me because anyone else feel bad, but imagine I'm the narcissist in this relationship and my wife comes home and says you are so narcissistic stopping so fully. itself. What would I'm going to do is get angry and defensive cause. I'm going to say you call me narcissus, that's mean, and you said I'm full of myself or how am I going to be less full of myself? What I'm going to be filled with that is useless, but if you said Keith you're a great husband. I really appreciate how hard you work. In how serious you are, but I think what would be great and would make even more admired is to spend more time with your family. You know, that's something really great. Husbands. Do- and you know I'd really appreciate that and another kids would appreciate that, and I think it'd make you a stronger person, a better person. I bet it would even feedback and make

better work. I go. You know, maybe my wife's right. I could be even better, I mean pretty good, but it could be better, and maybe that would make me better at work as I could talk about my great family it when I do podcast or I could talk about it when I'm trying to get clients, this would be great and that's going to be a little better. It's going to be a little more effective because I won't get as defensive. Though, manipulative, but it's a way of getting at the issues of narcissism without hitting the person directly kind of come into it at the side. It's interesting to have you're dealing with a narcissist. The one way potentially to reduce the narcissism is to use a narcissistic appeal. toward altruism yeah, I mean it's manipulation. I apologise, but we have different terms for it. Sometimes I've used the term communal activation, trying to bring up more communal, feel Junior partner, trying to open up compassion, trying to open up warmth so

I look at narcissism, I see it as having these two sides. One is about dom and answer leadership or drive or ambition. And those are things in our society we kind of like you know we don't mind. people being leaders, we encourage people to be leaders and this. Their side is being selfish and self centred and entitled and expecting more from people and that's the side, a narcissism that we seem is more socially toxic. I can deal with people think they're great, if they're nice to me, but if somebody thinks there not great as a jerk to me, I don't like em. So when you do with narcissism. I think it's especially in relationships. It's really useful to focus on that more interpersonal peace to try to bring about compassion, try to being about some more affection perspective, taking and all those sort of interpersonal skills from your partner. Speaking as somebody who's again been on that pretty far end of the spectrum at times

I live in, maybe even literally right now. One appeal that worked for me is that if you are paying attention, when you're just filled with self regard, be it grandiose vulnerable, it doesn't feel good thinking about yourself being self centered. hurts it feels much better to be other focused I've just seen over and over through my meditation practice and through my life in the world and through relationships with other human beings, that has provided away. That also works through the pleasure centres of my brain, but that doesn't feel manipulative part of the challenges the science is weak

It's so long, trying to figure out what narcissism is and how it works that the sort of treatment things are if we get another decade of figure. All these things out, but this idea of self consciousness or self awareness being unpleasant is really interesting because there is research on web to self awareness can be unpleasant use in their thinking about yourself, it's boring and if you love yourself and think your awesome, I think it can be rewarding the oldest definitions of This is more self love in a physical way. I mean it was being back to this real amid this is eighteen, ninety kind of stuff, so I think that self consciousness could be a turn off. Eventually, if you may be, I am dubbs I'm just they give it threw down. This would be an interesting manipulation of people come in just reflect on yourself. Think about yourself. How do you feel now think about somebody else now think about doing something for somebody else thing about helping somebody else. How do you feel most of the work? People feel better interpersonal,

and they do at home. I dunno if it affect narcissus more than anyone else, but I bet it would make a difference and in fact one of our grad students chelsea to sleep. Just. Did this amazing study looking at you asking people are narcissistic what they thought and what I used to think and what people thought in the literature that people are narcissistic were really kind of unaware of these interpersonal consequences of their life. But when we did these studies, it turns out that people are narcissistic are aware of it. This a yam kind of antagonistic unwell, bit of a jerk that causes problems. I wish I was a little less this, way. So we do seem to see more self awareness. Then I thought existed five years ago, because the old model narcissism, where people are just kind of oblivious but when it seems to be at least in the normal range, as the people

weick yeah, my my narcissism, it. It helps me at times, but it caused me problems. I wish I could have some better relationships. Yeah I mean I, I suspect, a lot of people who you know have pronounced narcissistic tendencies or are in those sort of wrong side of the spectrum here or that may be thinking. How do I keep the good parts of narcissism, the ambition but jettisoned the more painful to myself and others. Aspects The ass in that challenge of being driven without being a jerk are being a leader without being untied older, sometimes in the leadership world. If you're going to kind of the business side of Ethel talk about it is servant lead. ship or level five leader, shut the idea that you can be a driven leader without being an egomaniac, and this is very possible, and people are like this. You look at the dalai lama, I mean he's an increase of one of the greatest political leaders. We ve ever had he's non egomaniac.

He works out at I make you spend hours and hours at the hague did forced himself to train himself, not to be an egomaniac, but he isn't. We have people who do that and we respect people like that. Allow but is that? How do you peel away the ego from the drive? How can be fearless without bein mean how can be fearless I envy I I just there's a line from one of the clancy brothers Liam Clancy. I I got this in my head from an old bob Dylan interview where he says no fear, no envy no meanness, but I thought that was an interesting formula for creative success. How you can do things without being mean to people it's a challenge. No, I think buddhism has a lot to say on this it'll on how to be ambitious and the della is a good example

meditates every morning for three hours at least I believe here there are ways to train the mind so that you can be ambitious in that you have lofty goals by your. Your motivation is not self aggrandize meant, but as a benefit of other beings and that you're not attached to the outcome. so that your more resilient, both of these things actually boost resilience because of your motivation is less self regard and more, you know benefiting other people than you know. It's easier dust yourself off and not take things personally and then, if you're not attach the results, you recognize ok in particular in the dalai lama's position. He can have the view of like I can set a lofty goal and hope to achieve it over many lifetimes. Yes, you ever mary, bodhisattvas, vow right or voting has already said. Forget ledge, yes, cut him

be a really interesting manipulation in narcissism work, because it is very selfless it's very giving and it it also takes where the element of time, because you have lifetime to do it, so you don't have to nail this week. You know I m to save the world, they don't have a deadline, so I can be a little less pressured at looked about the dalai lama, but other spiritual leaders who can credibly narcissistic and they start called send they take advantage of people. You know spiritual materialism is a term they used for this, in some of the buddhist literature, hindu literature. So it's a dispose practices, I think, can be really get for relieving that stuff, but the results. It's also a vector for narcissism, much more of my conversation with teeth campbell right after this you I've heard about master class for years, but I ever actually checked it out, which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. The good news is the folks over at master class.

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both depression and anxiety. I'll only speak to how it manifests for me, but there's a lot of narcissism and my depression and anxiety. What are my fretfully projecting forward into the future about? If not myself, yeah and that's the there's? This and this guy is like Dostoyevsky. You know I'm the the worst man in the world and I made it I'll ever make caused all this suffering. I mean you have to be an egomaniac to think you're that bad, if in my depressive thoughts for me to be as bad a person as I imagined when I'm depressed I'd have to be pretty arrogant, because I really couldn't be that horribly, you know I'm just kind of a normal dude. I can't be that much of a loser. So there is that ego and depression, and you get an inflation of self people who get depressed, get really self focused because you're in it's suffering it's hard for you to reach out and help somebody else. You know cause you're dealing with your own anxiety, your own fear, your own suffering and so reaching

can be really hard. So I just get to where I started thinking about the acid test now I dont know why. Member, the acid test in the sixties can casey and tz and those guys, I saw wavy gravy that clown, who is at the acid tests. I saw him, do a talk and he said when you are in the acid tests and you thought you were the lowest. You could be the most scared and depressed and you could reach out and transcend yourself to help. Somebody else out. That's when you pass the acid test, The thing with narcissism is ego is a big topic ego, can do a lot of things and sometimes ego can just be distracting like monkey mind, and sometimes it can be really self focused and fear based, and you know, hiding in a room and sometimes it can be this more narcissistic. Look at me. I'm me know awesome and so ego can take all these different forms. I meant to ask this early on: are we seeing societal shifts toward nursing? isabel and if so, what striving it. Jean twinning and I wrote a book. I thank you,

oh, eight or nine right before the crash called the narcissism epidemic and we spent a lot of time looking at narcissism looking at young people and it looked like narcissism- and this is college student data, because this is Well, we have data on it. Look like narcissism is trend it up, at least until the great recession, where this the average narcissism score in the country and up and up and up and then in the recession. It looks like it sort of stabilized restarted, going back down, and now I think I mean obviously there's tons of narcissism the. U s just turn on the tv it's not hard to find, but it seems like we're getting here. waves, a depression now or just destabilization from the krona virus. But the data are administrative. Look the data right as they come out and it looks like this is kind of making people more depressed. I dont think the narcissism is going up with this. I'm not sure, though

I've been under the arm chair analysed impression that narcissism must be going up because a social media, yes in it it looked to me like it was until maybe twenty twelve or something like that, and. I'm talking beyond the data right now down, but I'm just going to talk. So this is If you do an arm chair stuff, because our data, you know in the last year or two target, the science is always fuzzy. It always takes a few years for stuff to clean out. It looks like what happen on such a media is when it started. It was a vector for narcissism in part. What we know right now, or people who were narcissistic use social media more their mark accomplished at their more followers, friends or whatever social media narcissism go together pretty well, but then there's the question the social media, make people narcissistic an original

I thought it would. I thought it made sense, but when we started looking at the data, it didn't really seem to seem like people were narcissistic. Social media would help them maintain their narcissism. But what seem to be going on with other kids? young people old people, whatever me too, as such Media became very stressful for them, so if it became an instagram I'd do a perfect selfie, I'm doing selfies all the time it's hard. If I don't love myself, if I'm alone and secure myself, he doesn't look good. So I feel stressed when I send myself is that I get stressed when I get my feedback, and so what you saw happen was all the kids at on instagram. Then a lot of the young kids got sort of fake instagram accounts, so people can see them and then they got snapchat accounts so that it wasn't as permanent. So there is less pressure autumn and now the sort of a tick tock word silly. I sometimes think about it. This way our kids are more exposed than nineteen thirty's movie stars. So

My daughter's party, more celebrity exposure than a movie star would in the thirties or forties just have the picture taken more. They're out there more and so they get a lot of celebrity problems. Narcissism may be a problem, but there's also depression. Self esteem body image of body does morphia, so you have this big move for it like. If you go into a plastic surgeons office, there's a reasonable chance, you could say: here's a perfect selfie. I want to look like this Why don't you do it would be a sign in their wanna, make yourself you'd better get this procedure, so people are getting plastic surgery, they take better selfies. So it's, I think, there's a cost to a lot of this. People are suffering from now on when social media first came off, the costs was an apparent and now people are see more of the cost is a guess. I just don't have the data you

were modest earlier. When I asked you you know: what can we do to deal with narcissism, in our own mind and in the minds of people around us, but in in your new book you do have a a section about an acronym called CPR, which you do bill as set of tools. We can use These circumstances. I'd love to hear more about that. We are we're talking about narcissism. Again, I don't like just attacking people's ego, because you you don't know what you're going to get CPR is a way of, you get about narcissism, especially poise, like what do I do with my kids? You know what I do with others. It's a way of thinking about it. That's not directly eager attack and it's easier member so see compassion compassion, interpersonal. Station chefs or lover faction, and whatever you carrying concern at all those those interpersonal warmth. Dad is a buffer against narcissism, the more

love you have in your life, the less narcissistic you're gonna, be the more compassionate. You are, the less narcissistic you're gonna, be so building his compassion and it's really important way to to sort of stop from becoming an unhinged narcissist, because you care about people. The second one is when people don't think about very much I think it's important, especially when you're in a performance fields, creative fields, sports, any these any the fields, its passion. So when people do things out of passion, that of love, or whether doing so I mean surfing or yoga meditation or doing podcasting or being a professor when their passion about their subjects. They can be energized and they can draw people and carries magically, but they're, not ego involved, because they just love what they're doing it's not about them. So in this they college literature. We have this term called flow or flow states that people get into sometimes in sports it

What about it like being in the zone when you're so engaged in what you're doing and you're performing at such a high level that you literally lose consciousness of yourself use or lose awareness of yourself you're so immersed in what you're doing? And so I think that if you focus your life on passion, your go: isn't going to be a strong, it's gonna be buffered, because you just love what you're doing and the third thing is there are, and cpr is responsibility taken. One of the biggest challenges with narcissism has taken responsibility for failure or taking responsibility for mistakes are bad outcomes. People who were narcissistic are very good at taking credit for success there, not so good at taken credit for failure, and so I think it's a real practice just to say yeah, I'm responsible for this screw up, even if you're not responsible, even if your employees responsible for the screw up, it's better to say damn responsible for that screw up. So if you practice

it's this over time. What you find is, first of all, you'll get better because you take responsibility for mistakes, you don't make them as much. Secondly, people don't hate you for taking responsibility for failure. They kind of respect you and your yankees not perfect, but he's not. Irc lazy takes responsibility. I don't have to so that responsibility. Peace, I think, is a pretty good buffer for narcissism. Would you just cpr, as primarily a set of tools that one can use to shave down one's own narcissism or is there an aspect to it that you can use with a difficult boss or spouse, etc? But I came up with the idea, because so many parents going, I dont, want make kid to be narcissistic and thought I try to come up with. Acronym really do you know how to deal with kids, but I use it for myself just like run that through my head, sometimes with a boss, it's much harder because with yourself, your kid you're, some control when you're dealing with a bow

a lot of it is. How do we protect yourself? How do you make sure that my boss can take advantage of me and then it becomes a balance of protection, but also some manipulation so you know if I'm an arrogant boss, I figure well, the guy. Seven ego woman. When I have seven ego, how do I help her eager needs be met in a way that benefits my career and and costume my job right back to the manipulation there I'm sorry, I don't relation in the budget of a mean if you dont have as much power. Manipulation is the judges who move right, but if you're you have power agency when it your own personality and hopefully, especially when their younger, you, your own children, and so what I hear you talking about. Cpr pertains to children, I've got a five year old. I very much do not want him to be a narcissist. Even though

he has my genes, so I would be encouraging under your schema for him to have. Things in his life that develop skills like compassion, passion and responsibility, yeah apps, literally in the other thing I think is really go with. Kids is natural consequences, meaning the classic examples. You burn hand on the stone don't grab stoves anymore, but a lot of nature does that say you're out in a broad, climbing or surfing or doing thing out in nature and you get hurt and you blame anyone by yourself. You know acting on a river and you get knocked and a water. You can't blame anyone. You just have to accept responsibility for what happened, so I think those natural consequences over and over it just help to establish itself its interpersonal on away. Allows you to know what you're good at. Will you not good at if you meet people who do pyrrhus, sports and big waves servers fighters or when it to pray, usually pretty chill people

you ve gotta be down so many times their ego is and what it was when they were fifteen libias about passion, because I have a lot of things that I'm passionate about but used the phrase you can get so passionate about it, but you can get into a flow stay where your ego is involved, but you know I'm really passionate about my writing books and doing podcast. And yet, like do I check my amazon wreck, We regularly. Yes, do I check what? How am I despise? Gases is ranking in the store store all the time. That's prominent prominent ego involvement. Well, it's ego involvement, but it depends you frame framing your task. So if your task, as you say, look I just love to write, I dont care whence it leaves my desk. I don't care, I just love to put words on paper and then he said Adam Jackie myself,

if all the time I'd say dan, maybe there's something going on. But if she said, I'm really passionate about being a successful writer. What how do you score points as a successful writer? You get sales rank, so you get. You know, comments or whatever so you're, basically looking at the points on the board, so looking at the points of the board is going to you feedback for good or bad, and if your numbers are bad, you know you you're getting bad data from it and you go I better readjust or or maybe you just blame your publicist and go off the handle fire? Your sorry, it's joke. My publicist Beth is the nicest person in the world and I would stay Beth but you could see that right, you ve numbers or down you go off the handle, your fire. Everyone and you go. Ok, Dan's awesome are key, saw some, but everyone around Keith as an idiot. Let's get a new team around keys, O keefe can be awesome again. But if you look at it

Numbers gone now. I gotta work on this or you know it's really working over here, but it's not working over here. I'm going to change my direction a little bit, that's feedback for performance. So it's not really ego. It's more performance based well, when it gets me thinking- and maybe this is totally off base- is that is it possible there's a kind of healthy or useful narcissism in that? Yes, I do. Look at the metrics and, yes, I do feel there's at least some ego involvement there, but I am using it as a way I hoped to get better at my job so that I serve people better. I mean I'm trying to be honest here. Is that my only motivation, I'll say what least one outcome that I do serve people better and Maybe I'm button lipstick on a pig here, but as that may be useful ego. What, yes, I think is, useful ego, I mean what any have you go? You gotta get out of bed in the morning you now and if you're gonna be successful,

and you're going to say. I'm going to put stuff out there that I want people to pay attention to you, gotta have some of an ego. To start with, I mean to make it work. The problem, is you just don't want it taken you over so if you have an ego- and you can use your ego, but it's not taken you over its, not destroying your relationships. I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I mean it's a tool, think about. It goes a tool in two a box, but you can pull it out here to a box in use it, but then- I can put it away and go home to your wife and kid or whatever you can go to the park and look at the birds and feel joy not have to be living in your head all the time so that tool in the toolbar Ass metaphor is one I've used and it makes sense to me. Also, I mean

no one's perfect, not the dalai lama, my god that guy meditates he was reincarnated what thirteen times and need meditate four hours a day I mean I'd, get out of bed. Have a cup of coffee get yelled at by my kids and my dog bark at me. I'm just glad to be awake. You know but we are pointing out to me at least seems really deep that again eighty it I thinks thinking about it. The spectrum is really useful and we're gonna be at various points on the spectrum, given our conditioning and given the current conditions in our lives, but I hear you're doing this kind of decriminalizing the ego here we need to have ego. We need to, as you said, get up in the morning, but our pants on. Make appointments and it's not wrong to want to be successful, but you might wanna have ways to be able to

turn the volume up or down on the ego or to put it back in the tool kit and pull out a different tool. Whatever pick your metaphor, I think motivation is a key part here. What is your motivation for your success, etc, etc? It seems like we're getting into really you complex, but deep, a useful terrain here. I agree, I'm not anti, oh by any means- I just think it can be overwhelming. I like competition. I think competition is a great way to learn about yourself. It's a great way to can a loser ego because you get your, but can't it's a great way to gain confidence in what you it's a very egotistical thing, but if its balance, fair competition, it's great! That's what we have sportsmanship spent ship thou say he thought you know yoga sabotage compared. After the competition we learn. How to have you go and then put it away and we we learn how to deal with it reasonably well, being selfless all the time I mean if you

woke up and started giving away all your stuff- I mean your family's going to starve. It's not perfect. I mean we're human, we're, not we're, not gods. I very much look at this as a balance and trying to make things better or worse, rather than getting rid of ego. Somehow I mean you can do it for moments and intense experiences, but doesn't last long. I have a few more questions. This is just as fascinating the book is called the new science of narcissism. That's the new book. What do you mean by new science? What's new here? Well, the research theory. I narcissism has been a mass for a long time, then terms been around for about a hundred years and a real messy, because it just historically story? You had you know yet psychoanalysts. Looking at people inside while these people are really arrogant but deep downside to hate themselves. So you know, Donald trump is

neath woody allen and woody Allen underneath must be donald trump and it gets are confusing, and we have these very strange models and different people kind, different things, narcissism. The definitions were really messed up and in the last ten years or so, there's been a wide agreement of sort of how we can structure, narcissus, you talk about his personality, trade, isn't a disorder and really when a man is the personality psychologist this social psychologist, that industrial organizational business, psychologists and the psychiatrist in clinical people got together and sort of agreed on what we're talking about in the field was able to move forward very quickly in about ten years,

So that's really what I mean. One of the reason I write the book is, I just wanted to get this stuff out there, so that if somebody wants to come along in five years and pick it up, they can just start where I am and not have to start from scratch. The epilogue your book is, while the title of the chapter is epilogue, but the subtitle is facing the future with hope what is hope for here I everybody just trying to be helpful. Now I used to be so cynical by just wasn't working for me now, I'm hopeful and a lot of things. I think you know if you ask me five years ago, since there is not really payment for mpg people had changed too much and it seems like people can change. It seems like people flee

sybil and their personalities more than we thought before it seems like we can understand personality. So we can see that some things are strengths and weaknesses me kind of balances out. So I think there's hope that I challenge clinically. Is it there's no real good research on narcissistic personality disorder? Is this not a priority of the government to fund research on this? So we don't really have I am I wish I could say you know what we ve got: five therapies, they ve been tested in these these clinical trials, easy call this guy. We can fix your nurses and we just don't have that because there's no research, when they there's some, but there's no big money, push for their just, not a federal interested narcissism. So many jokes to me: There is really is, and I hate to say a bit I mean that's literally. The case is not a federal interest in narcissism has very interesting sense. I could get fired for plain,

that too too much but me and now all, but I am now put it. Let me put it in terms that this is actually a little spook year, but this is kind of what happens is. Are national institute of Hell thinks about mental disorders as being things that are first found and so was and then found a neuron and then things you can find in rat models or road at models, and then things you find in the brain. So it's a very materialistic view of this. I see, and so things like narcissism. They don't really clearly fit into a rat model or a mouse model. They just don't know what to do with. It This is a problem of ego and we don't really have good models with animals who done it. Good medicines for it in our whole system is designed to make every mental problem a pill and so not a lot of funding for things that don't fall along those lines. How do you clinically- and I know, you're, not a clinician, but how does one politically

the linear between somebody who is, you know pretty far to the stream on the narcissism spectrum, and somebody is full on an pd narcissistic personality disorder. The distinction is impairment, so we'd say is there nikolay, significant impairment in your life, from your narcissism to be a disordered, has to be met in you up, and so what they have to do is localize a couple area as where this disorder is making your life harder. So it could be interpersonal problems. That's a big went for narcissism, so yeah you ve got this narcissism and its wrecking your marriage or your work. That's the problem could be cognitive distortion, oh, you know you're making terrible decisions, because your confidence is way too high. So it's distorting decision making. It could be emotional disruption, so your narcissism makes you have these aggressive outbursts whenever you feel threatened, and we need to work on that

click as you lost your job, and you can't you know you ran up on stage when some kind of war and install the award for a moment that stare boy you now yet Whatever it is, you kind of have to have this impairment to be a disorder if you're, just the most arrogant person on the earth, but you're a nice person you're not getting a disorder. I mean the dalai lama comes in, says: yeah, I'm I'm reincarnated lama and there it's kind of how I roll god? King he's not going to be diagnosed as his npd because he is not impairing, so it said impairment piece that makes it a clinical disorder and not just a trait yeah. I guess impairment though there's some,

I still see in that phrase in that there is so much alarmed at the city and they did. The truth is if you walked into a psychiatrist, and so my life's mess stop, because my wife's ism tie in our societies guys burger diagnoses, narcissistic right cause. You walked in their right. This had been a great chat, having written numerous books on the subject. Are there areas where I should have steered the conversation, but failed to are the things you want to get off your chest. I have given you a chance now, This really interesting. The thing with ego is that it affects every single avenue of life, so you could say kid: what about narcissism in sport? What about narcissism in geeks, where

with narcissism in the military, would have been awesome in religion. I mean you can go anywhere with it. It's the nature of the ego, it goes and everything so now. This is fun. So final, final question: here we do on some episodes. We do this thing called the plug zone, where we we force are often modest guests to shamelessly plug so just plug your new book, your old books, where you are in the inter webs, etc, etc. Oh thank you I have a new book coming out to september twenty eighth called the new science of narcissism, valuable, familiar local bookstores internet. We put up a site called narcissism lab that has some narcissism tests on there. That should be working. If you're curious, and I d be gamble- dot com, a pleasure to me, you and chat with your key. Thank you so much likewise. Thank you, big thanks to Keith. Before we go heads up on thursday of cover, first from seventy nine eastern p m,

Joseph goldstein Sharon, Salzberg and seven asa last thing I will be doing a live event to live stream event. It's a benefit to support two great meditation centers, the new york insight meditation center, that's obviously in york and cambridge insight meditation center in cambridge mass more information and to register you can go to and why I am see dot, org and search under events to make it easy, for. You will also put a link in the show nuts and finally big thanks to the folks who worked so hard to make the show a reality. Samuel is our senior producer moorish nitrogen is our producers are sound, designers are met bulletin and on your sheikh of ultra audio maria, were tell us our production coordinator weed. I have a lot of wisdom from r t p h, colleagues such as a gen point, Ben Rubin, nate, Toby and Liz Levin and, as always thanks to rank ass? Are unjust, coherent, maybe see news we'll see

wednesday, for an episode about joy- is that even a relevant emotion these days, an episode about joy with the great meditation teacher james barons, Wednesday a prime members, you can listen to ten percent happier early. And ad free on amazon, music downloading, amazon music tat today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a solid and it's all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com, slash servant, they promised I go to the left from prime videos. The lord of the rings rings of power. marrying a special episode of whose amazing life it's a podcast for kids that lets you experience life the eyes of someone who changed the world and you'll have to guess who it is: here's a hint he has.

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