Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth, if you haven't tried, meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here is One user had to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog. The longer I the more I learn, nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process. Is life? Changing? That's awesome here, down

the ten percent happier app today, wherever you get your apps and get started for free for twenty five years, stamps dot com has made mailing and shipping easy. All you need is a computer and printer imagined, mailing and shipping right from your desk any time no traffic, no waiting, no hassle, plus stamps dot com gives you discounts up to eighty four percent sign up for stamps. Dot com today use code program for a four week, trial, plus postage and a digital scale that stamps down. calm code programme from ABC this is the ten percent. Have your pack ass dan Harris. Hey, hey, we're tackling some thorny dharuma questions on the show today, this stuff that can trip a lot of us up for them.

how do you love somebody without being attached, or how do you love yourself when health is allegedly an illusion. We're gonna get into these questions and much much more with my guest today was a repeat customer kevin griffin,. we have given on a few months ago. I enjoy that conversation so much as apparently did you the audience, because the numbers were great. We all did so much that we decided to bring Kevin back, last time, as you may remember, we talked to Kevin a lot about the nature of craving and addiction. Kevin is both a long time buddhist practitioner and also a twelve step participant this time, he's back with a semi skeptical, take on loving kindness that venerable, if somewhat misunderstood, this concept in practice, our conversation really centres around a book. He rode cobble living kindness buddhist teachings for a troubled world and this conversation we talk about. loving kindness, verses, living kindness, the dame

years of modern, loving, kindness practice. He argues that if it stays on the cushion its focused on a feeling and feelings are in permanent the idea, you don't have to feel love all the time but can still seek to handle situations with, and this is the very much not molest louis buddhist way of saying it non ill will and we talk about a buddhist text called the matter shooter. I do want to note that the interview does include references to addiction and other forms of suffering we'll get to cabin in a moment. First, though, this item of business, is actually very exciting. I think if you ve been listening to the show for while you ve probably heard me talk about our companion annotation app, which is also called ten percent, happier the opposite place. You can go to practise what we talk,

out here on the pod cast and you can do so with meditations that are led by some of our most popular pot cast guests. It serve like science class him college, the pod cast as the lecture and the app is the lab so whether you're interested in treating yourself with a little bit more compassion having our guy mutations without hurting relationships or pausing in taking a breath instead of snapping at people in your orbit. You can learn about this well here and then practice it over there in the app, but just like that college lab section, motivating yourself to actually put in the practice. Time is hard. I don't want to sugarcoat that it can be really hard. Those few milliseconds between closing the podcast, app and firing of meditation. App are rife with possibilities for distraction You know a new email, breaking news, alert the temptation to dooms scroll on twitter, whatever

that's why we are now trying something new. This show the ten percent happier package is now available inside our companion app so that you can go seamlessly from listening to practicing learning to doing when you subscribe to the appeal also be able to seamlessly transition to meditation right after listening to the park ass, not to mention you'll, receive access to our courses, sleep, meditations and podcast episodes ad free. This is available now on io s. Only android, I promise is coming very very soon so to get started, download the temperature happier. app in the apple app store and then tap on the podcast tab at the bottom of the screen Ok, you're go now with Kevin griffin, kevin welcome back to the show there today and thanks for having me back, I'm amazed. Assumed you know I'd be on the blacklist. After my last I always to surround the worst servers me that that might be a subject for discussion. We have you got it

another time So we're tired by loving in a and- and I know we're gonna get into your view of what some Us may cannot get wrong about this before we get it what we may get wrong about it for the other, initiated. How would you describe loving, kindness or matter m e t t a practice. What is it this matter practice as opposed to just matter itself we're both well. I mean to say that even a really important distinction for me, so there's a traditional matter practice. We call it traditional. The buddha did not teach it, but it comes from. about five hundred. I do the vicinity magua so get the path of purification, which was a

a commentary on the teachings of the buddha, and in that we find this practice, which really was made most famous by sharon salzburg, who I know you know how and It's a very intentional way of trying to develop. loving feelings and uses phrases. Where you repeat phrases Weekly, may I be happy, may be peaceful. May I be safe, may you be happy, may you be peaceful may be safe and there are many other variations on the phrases but along lines so they're just now, saying that they are not sort of exactly prayers and they're, not demands, but their serve requests. The systematic part besides the phrases is that we go through. Categories of people, starting with the self not necessarily often starting with the self. Some people prefer to start with

something easier like your cat. You know, which is not a person, I guess, but can be helpful, easy want of feel love towards. So we can start with the easy once and then- with our dear ones and then work with what we call neutral people, which is just sort of like everybody that you don't know essentially and then into difficult people and an orphanage justly. You pick one day call person, and so after you ve gone through those categories, repeating these phrases and kind of feeling the breath in your body feeling. faith in your heart centre in the middle of the chest, sheer trying to kind of connect with this feeling than one, go through those categories than you do, a practice they our radiating. To sort of radiating, loving kindness out to all beings ultimately end, and I like to do that and server almost

geographical way: imagining where I live, my neighborhood in my city and then outward in our around the planet you can do the whole universe. If you're no ambitious, so it's very systematic and fairly simple in terms of how it's done and on what I think, one of the things that very appealing about it is that it gives us something very special effect to do in our cause a lot of times when you're, just trying to follow your breath or just prior to be mindful it's hard to? What am I doing like the breathless seems so ephemeral in order to take your china drifting around, but so the matter form really helps the mind think to stay focused, which is again one of its values, one of its peripheral values. So that's the practice, but you made a distinction between the practice and the quality of mind yeah,

so my book living kindness kind of it goes through. This is what was the buddha really talking about and are we getting it right away What ways are we getting it? I don't even like to say wrong, but are we missing something, and so just the you, the word loving kindness, are the compound. Loving kindness serve awkward to start with and. confusing, because if it love. Why do you have to add kindness to it and then, of course, realize well because in our language and our culture, I can meet a lot of different things that aren't about kindness. You know they can be about sex that can be about desire that can be about you know food or you latest netflix, So we had kindness stick to clarify that the sole of K,

but that still sort of doesnt explain too much to me. So I go back to the suitors their early buddhist teachings and to try to see what the buddhist talking about- and this is where for me, it becomes interesting because so much of what the buddha talked about when he was talking about love China's was not loving china. His was non while he would call non ill will and say it have a typical like that. We've run into these phrases in this in the suitors that are sort of what What do you mean by that? What why is even saying that? Why doesn't he just say, love and that then opens up a whole kind of area to think about? First of all that the heart of the buddhist teaching is about letting go. So what if he said,

You should love people, it's sort of creating the potential for craving and for attachment. So instead of that says, just don't hate. People is an interesting distinction, because I find it difficult to get that motivated necessarily to love everybody. I can't I can have compassion and kind of a broad sense of caring for the world world, but again this word love sort of suggest that I'm supposed to feel something candid juicy and warm and affectionate. that comes and goes so, if I'm support feeling, love? Well, for one thing we know about feelings is that they are in permanent, so I'm putting myself into this sort of losing proposition already by saying I met a cultivate

loving kindness, raw beings and I'm gonna feel love for all beings at means that a lot of the time, I'm gonna, feel that I'm failing then I'm going to be coming up short knock and to be able to feel that all the time. So then, what do I do to feel about myself. Then I'm doing the opposite of freedoms. I'm supposed do right. So if I put that aside necessarily us my goal and just say I can practice non ill will owe them about letting go right and that it's more natural to me in my practice, because it's kind of what I'm taught from the beginning of my meditation practice is to let go it's. There is something kind of like, oh in one, not so much about letting go, and then somebody comes in says, oh now, we want you to add this thing cultivate this thing I mean it's a beautiful practice and it can have you can a beautiful experiences with it, but we can't hold on,

those experiences? So I think it's really viable to do the loving kindness practice, but then to take it. beyond that and do use, it really is an insight practice. That is the what you see through doing the loving kindness practice is what you want to carry with you that isn't so much impermanent in our insights thanks we can sort of aroused and a moment just like our? How do I want to thank you this. How do I want to handle the situation? Ah, I want to handle it. Would kindness gonna handle it with none, It will then, so I don't have to naturally feel love towards someone, but I can act then more skilfully, which is why

I came up with this term living kindness. I think it might be worth saying more, but the distinction that exists in your mind between living, kindness and loving times yeah. So the first distinction is the distinction between doing a meditation practice and then the rest, your life, which I can we know it can be great to meditate, and hopefully it's not always, but you know you can have these wonderful moments, but the real challenge for most of us is what do we do with that at the end of the room, treat or at the end of the sitting. When I put the spiritual book down and in a walk into the kitchen face a pile of dishes, you know how do I take this practice into my life? That is realistic. You know, because I guess for me it's not realistic,

to just walk around. I know I love everybody. Everything is peace and joy. You know it's now. I've had those moments, they come and go again, and so it's, how can I apply this? And so so then there are. These simple ideas may be simple. I dunno, sometimes very challenging, but but the idea that the buddhist putting forth it there's a beautiful one in one of the suitors, where the boy Is asking one of his monks how he practices? the kind of in a harmonious way with these other monks that he's living with that kind of on it. When a retreat, like the three of them out of the forest. then and noticing the phrases. How do you bland, like milk and water and the monk on a router says, I think, to myself. Why not put aside what I wished to do?

and do what these venerable once wished to do. That kind of a petty vices like living kindness, makes putting aside my own I'm in the moment than doing things for someone else and- and I actually came upon that suitor when my Daughter, was just like a toddler, and I thought. Ah, this is parroting. This is exactly what you do is apparent put aside. What I wished to do and do with this venerable one. This venerable to your old needs me to do, and that is very inspiring for me, because you know if you are serious meditate her You have kids, but I think you ve had this experience. They can kind of intrude. This might seem to be intruding on your practice and when you realise no by practice, is to take care of this venerable

one is to put aside what I wish to do that I am practising loving kindness when I do that. That's that's a gift to me. It's like, ok right, because we can turn our practice into this precious little thing of like it's, this meditation and winning, and I'm in these particular states. I'm feeling all this love? That's when I asked my practice, the rest of my life, not so much the way the buddha talks about love or loving kindness, and I guess we could parse those words might be worth doing that at some point. But the way he talks about meta at least seems at times inaccessible to me. You have a quote from buddha that you highlighted in your book where he said even if your limbs are being sought off by bandits, if I thought of ill will arises in the mind, you're not practising what I teach

one of my favorite licence just because it so I don't know, I guess I'm kind of perverse in some way it it seems so ridiculous and it certainly will undercut any spiritual pride. We might have any spiritual ego. If we think we have evolved to the point of being enlightened in some way, all we have to do is ask someone start sawing off our limbs and see how we handle it. So I talk to my monastic teachers, urgent possono personnel, who actually was kind enough to help me with this manuscript, and he takes more of an attitude. Since this is more symbolic that it's not literal,

Maybe I mean he should know more than I do, but it was interesting and I was teaching this suited to some college students at a catholic college, where I sometimes two of them teaching and and in the middle of offering it I realized. Oh, this is kind of the story of christ on the cross. I thought that's really interesting. What am I gonna do with that Just before that, I thought! Well, no one could do this, then I thought well, that's actually sort of an archetype of of western spirituality of the judeo christian tradition. of this person, being crucified and saying

forgive them lord. They know not what they ve done. I think he also has some complaints to god. After that I am not sure which comes first, the. Why have you forsaken me, but we do have this ideal here, so maybe it's not so unrealistic. There's another story of a chinese monk who was attacked by the red guard. I guess this was in the city these enter. It was like in his eighties or something something all his students ran away away. He stayed in the monastery in the red guards came and beat him nearly to death, and one students came back to the monastery that They found him in this and they were saying to him. It's ok, seems like your time to hang onto to your life and don't hold onto your life for us and he said I'm not holding onto my life,

I'm holding onto it for those red guards, because the clamour for them would be just two terrible. If I were to die and so he recovered and apparently lived quite a few more years, afterward. So another sort of model of this just unimaginable compassion and forgiveness I try to take the buddhist teachings as literally as possible and accept my own shortcomings in regard to them and say

whether the buddha met this or not. I know I can't do that. I can't be that person, but that's ok. I don't have to be that person. You know. That's I'm not perfect, I'm not enlightened. You know I have this vision and I think spiritual teachings are often about an idealized vision, enlightenment itself, as a kind of idealized vision. Idealized, really you know what is it? Is it real? You know, I think one of the things that keeps us motivated on our path is to have these visions of of some kind of perfection, and maybe the humility of when you're not achieving it is is something healthy. So we can look at enlightenment, witches, classically defined as the uprooting of greed, hatred and delusion, or we can look at loving kindness which,

the bar has been set by the buddha, not feeling any ill will someday song off your lambs. We can look at this as we might look at the speed with which go phelps swims, a lap as part of the extreme and of the human repertoire, with shouldn't discouraged from trying to swim. Fair enough, I think that's a good analogy. I also like to come back to something very simple, which is why I like this idea of non ill, will know that's a nice sort of ideal to live toward. Can I just now, There is one of the interesting pieces in there in the vicinity maugre that eta, about that, where the, where this form of meditation comes from in all when, when you get to the matter,

station of sending loving kindness to the difficult person at many people obviously have trouble with that and the So the market actually suggests the rather than trying to feel love for this difficult person, this enemy. They sometimes call it just try to make them into a neutral person like thou into. Does it again can alike like here is something I can do. I can just stop hating that person, I'm not gonna, wanna go and embrace them and a tart I made a wish for them to be really happy and have everything that they want, but I can I can maybe let go of hatred for them and just make them like a neutral person. So I know it's interesting. I dunno, if I'm talking

about how to both sides my mouth but but on the one hand, suggesting oh, it's greater these ideals and, on the other hand, saying let's have achievable tasks as practitioners as mediterranean us. This people on some kind of a I guess, spiritual journey. One of the other models that I, I really like the earlier one of the great scholars and translators of the tax I the next generation. He was a student, bigger body. He says that just following the five precepts of non harming two nuts but kill not to steal, not to lie not to harm people sexually are not using attacks against the point of heedlessness just to follow those guidelines,

and for living is an act of compassion because you're being non heartening, and that's that's another one of those moments like the real, I think that taking my daughter was an act of loving kindness. It's another Those moments when I realize oh I'm already immoral doing some of the good stuff. Unama. Already yeah. It is an act of compassion and and- and I think that when we get interested in excited about spiritual practice in or buddhism what and weeks, and we start to have this idea. as you know, we see these goals, enlightened men and last saying, like nuts and not being angry with people were sawing off our limbs and we lose sight of the fact that something as simple as taking the precept to not steal is actually a big

you know that. Can we imagine if ever but in the world followed, the precept of not stealing or of not killing the world would be a completely different place as individuals we might that be, but we ve done anything particularly special, because we haven't gone out and murdered anybody today, but when we know that people are being murdered in children, both through individual hatred and and through state violence constantly, and we realise that it actually is a big deal. If I do that, I actually I'm participating very much in a communal act of compassion, go back to this non ill will notion for a second place, my concern about it.

is that it feels a little neutral little dull in some way a little cold. Your arm attracted the notion of- and I talked about this a lot on the show. I don't wanna pretend this is an original idea of stolen it from smarter people, but attracted the notion of defining love down to just a human capacity, the mammalian capacity to care, you know it can range from slightly north of neutral too. You know you complete me tom cruise uttering a famous love lines and in a movie but not oh, will seems really firmly in new neutrality and I get that anything north of neutrality, it could be clinging or attachment and contrary to the buddhas farmer goal, which is neo nodded

judgment letting go. So how do we compute all this because caring seems to be pretty important in terms of the survival of the species to well? Absolutely I think what I'm trying to suggest is: let's have a baseline itself, baseline, be non ill will definitely not the end point. I mean radiating kindness over entire world. That's the law and from the the matter suitor. Absolutely I mean beautiful and and something to practice and to pursue I just like the idea that, on my bad days I can practice not it will on my good

as I can radiate kindness over the entire world and so not to certainly I don't mean to suggest that that's the end point of practice and I'm really actually pleased that you used the word care cause. That's actually what I came to as I was particularly addressing. The question of self love was care and I would suggest that care is living kindness because care is active right. But if we're talking about caring, not

I care about you, but I take care of you. I take care of me. I take care of the world, that's actually my let my translation from ETA is care and it's not an accurate translation at all. You know it's not a translation of the polly, but I'm completely unsatisfied with two translations that Well, it's more like friendliness like that, leaves me kind of cold but care, because this question of self love, which is a persistent one in our culture and in the mindfulness community and in the various community, especially one people are challenged to do loving kindness for themselves- I really like the idea of ok again, I dont have to feel all warm and fuzzy. sisera lakes, often when we were asked to practise self love,

There's an immediate problem of grading ourselves or you know trying to ask ourselves if we deserve it. If we've earned it- and I don't think that's what the buddha means by loving yourself, like oh check in or check your spiritual resume, are you good enough person, but rather can you take care of yourself? You know, and that comes back to very basic daily actions behaviors, you know. Do I feed myself? Do I rest one, I'm tired to exercise if I'm feeling a spiritual whole do I seek to fill it with something health? and nurturing, or do I harm myself? Then I dont have to be grading mice,

often do I deserve love, I don't know, but I do care about myself and I do take care of myself. That's what I think in practical terms that loving myself that's matter. myself. How do you compute the seeming riddle of caring for yourself or others without attachment? I'm glad you save, though, because that's a hard question so My immediate response is kind of in the same way that. If we see someone fall down, we just go and help just pick them up, and it's not because were attached to them that we help them to get up. So if we treat ourselves as just anybody rather than as ourselves, just as we would treat enough.

Human being- and maybe even hopefully, Even the just another being then there's a spontaneous response to two offering or too need to the need for care, and there doesn't have to be any I'm attacks. TIM myself or I'm doing this because it's me, but where some someone else who was hungry, I wouldn't give them food. You know, I think, that's what comes to mind. That might not be. You know the most profound answer. Let's assume it's not the most profound answer. I guess what I'm getting at. Those is not just how we feel but ourselves, but any any being about whom we care to have been. Oh, let's take your, then todd learn now I assume somewhat older daughter, and now I've got a son, I'm very

to myself. Oh yes, and so how can I I love my son or my wife for my friends or right cats without cling or without attaching, I would say you can and I have a chapter on the suitor called boy from those who are dear and at another suited that I discovered around that same time and my daughter was a small one. Yes, she is, she is turning a twenty three this week and I saw the title of that suitor and I thought born from those who are dear others- gonna- be about loving your children and how sweet and wonderful it is no not so much what the buddha says is born from those who are dear is suffering. He says. Yes, exactly what you're pointing to attachment causes. Some

bring in its in the suitor. A man comes to the buddha and his son has just died and his Going to the buddha for Some kind of help like bring my child back to life or they know what am I supposed to do, and the buddha says too, a sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are born from those who are dear? Ok, thanks for that, you know it doesn't really seem like its offering much hope he tells this man come to your senses. Jet think is a very telling lie. Not reminds me of John cabot since book coming to our senses. I think called and with her at common phrase in our language, come to your senses, but if we think of it in my fullest terms, come to our senses maids

come into your body, come into your experience of your body, so so he's trying to calm the man down by just telling him to to be present with his experience, but as I've reflected on the suitor quite a bit. First of all, it's quite apparent that that's true and in the suit goes on to to kind of argue for the truth of that that if we are attached to people at some point, we will have suffering around that attachment. It's not suggesting that having attachment to people is just continuous suffering, but that, inevitably things will change. My daughter is living across the country and I miss her and that's that's painful. You know, but what I think the buddha is talking about is have insight into the truth and that

You have insight into the truth, then you don't experience duca, you can still experience pain, but it's not confused. You can remember like this is natural. This is what supposed to happen and that for me again a lot of what the buddha is saying, is meant for me to understand the truth and then, if I understand the truth- and I hope that with wisdom with acceptance and yes with compassion, then it doesnt create duca, because duca implies ignorance,

It implies- and you don't understand reality and that's why it's particularly painful, because there's nothing quite so painful as going through an experience. It doesn't make sense to that hurts, whereas, when you go through something that makes sense to you that hurts you can b with that you can hold it? Ok, they're gonna, stick a needle in my arm right now. It's gonna hurt, that's ok! I'm doing that so that all become vaccinated, ouch that her ok but I'm not suffering right. It's not duca, so that to me, It's just a really critical idea, because everybody, including ourselves, is gonna die it hopefully will get old beforehand in which is also difficult. How do you hold that? That's just for me, especially as I get older the these are the really important question:

about my practice. How do I hold these experiences? There inevitably going to be difficult. The buddhas not offering us in our a rose garden, that's not the promise of the diamond, the promise of the dark. To me. I know the ultimate promises, I'm gonna, let go of all attachment, but you know Well, I've got it. I've got attachments to me. The promise is that if I understand the truth, I will not experience. Duca pebbles still have pain, but I will not experienced to cut. Does that make sense to you? Does it might be worth explaining the word duca fur folk, sewer new to this right? So it's it's the term that shows up in these early teachings and it's one of those words. That's just it can't be translated into English directly which,

something about both, but the buddha was teaching and the culture who is it. It's a literal. Meaning is something like an asshole. that or a wheel, that's on a bench actual saw like the image of the the grocery cart with the bad. And when you are pushing it, doesnt work in this field, that things are right. It's discomfort in the world and I think it does really imply this confusion about reality. It is the pain of life and that kind of how the buddha defines it. It's all a physical and tor pain of our existence and yet fundamentally says that that caused by our attachment, so maybe I'm exaggerating when I say that if we're not can

used reward experience took. Maybe we have to be fully enlightened, not to experience joker, but to me the real problem of it is one were confused and we just don't understand. Why does this hurt but I could see it being a turn off for some people and maybe even me, if the end point of this path is we're not gonna love, the people That we love the most in the same way, in other words, were not can be clinging. We're not gonna be attached. That feels like a certain amount of freight. Parity is creeping into the relationship. You pick it up and down here, slowly. I think the buddha is portrayed in this way in the suitors, has really not having emerged since about people, and I dont believe that I believe that it is.

a creation of the people who put together the suitors that they wanted to create the image of this sort of. Perfected, other worldly being a who was not affected by anything, and I don't think that's true, and I don't think it's really what the buddha is pointing to. I can at last, but we have to distinguish mean. First of all, this distinguish attachment from love right in those two very different things. When we're talking about attachment occurs again, we have to Canada defined terms mean we're talking about an unhealthy kind of attachment and eddie attachments. I need you to be the way you are and I need you to stay that way. You are. I need that which is like the problem like I dont want my kid to grow up and leave me

because she's abandoning me, though, that's really unhealthy and that's that's the kind of attachment I'm talking about, but love and caring for others, a mink. We see the buddha as spending his whole life after an awakening just giving acting. They said that is forty five years of teaching worth an act of compassion, but to make it a little personal about the buddha there's. Also this image that I like to call upon where late in his life, they lived to be eighty late. This life, his best friends, have died, and you can imagine the sky, now got all these followers. and a lot of them are young and what kind of annoying and behaving badly and he has to deal with that status

big organization there, then I'm embellishing here, but this part, I'm not embellishing in one of the suitors. He says that The assembly of monks feels empty to him. and then he names a couple of his dear old friends and then quickly in the services suffering. I don't want you to misunderstand and don't worry, I'm, okay, I'm not suffering, you know, but a kind of go year who put that power, In about how he's not suffering, because I believe the first part, I believe that he is sad- I believe that he misses, then I dont think it a little to the boot. I think it eczema, greater teacher. If we see him as having human emotions, because he was a human ether and he was a father and their citizens

these teaching his son and his son or dance in oh there's, gotta, be the motions going on there saw. So I dont think that we're not supposed to love and care for people is that we have to watch out for the ways that are attached. It creates suffering nor attachment create suffering. If we expect them to stay this one way or we expect them never to get sick, or for us never to have a conflict with them or for them not to leave us. It's challenging the hotel.

Much more of my conversation with Kevin Griffin right after this, in the first part of the twentieth century, the hilton family had a lock on the hotel industry by offering upscale service at a modest price. The company was expanding fast in buying up iconic properties across the country, like the plaza and the waldorf historiae, but their unchallenged rise wooden last. An ambitious mormon named J, w marriott decides to pivot, from restaurants, to hospitality and he's after hilton business, developing modern hotels across the world, but both the hilton unmarried families will have to contend with their share of drama in finding a successor, while also fighting to stay solvent in a high stakes: business hi, I'm david brown, the host of one. We show business wars. We go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time in our latest season, hilton and mary out or in a race to expand globally and secure the loyalty of

customers make sure to follow business wars? Where every get get your cast. You can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wondering app. When we think of sport stories, we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory, but the new podcast sports explains the world. Brings you some of the wildest and most surprising sport stories you ve never heard take. The teenager roca, Wikipedia page that got a young athlete signs to a million dollar deal or a tennis pro came out of retirement to fight off any invasion. What about the ugandan national basketball coach? Who was really an undercover agent for the cia, from lord willing journalists across the globe. Sports explains the world goes beyond leagues and staff. to share stories that will redefine you're

understanding of sports and their impact on the world to hear these and other incredible stories from the wide world of sports? Listen to sports explains the world early and ad free with wondering, plus you convince the first. Nine episodes of sports explains the world right now, ad free on laundry plus. Let's go back to self love. I sentencing of Alex So if love is probably the greatest cliche of all time, self love is even greater, and yet it's a very powerful idea had a big impact on me and yet again, if you're a buddhist, do Any whom concretize is or builds up, the idea of a self is cut verboten, so

I dunno. What do you do with their all of the foregoing? I think it actually helps to maybe start with the external. So for me, getting sober was probably the biggest act of self love life ever and yet it comes in the framework of All you know when taking on that kind of which sounds like I'd hate myself, if I were an alcoholic you know so so the idea that I'm an alcoholic is terrible at that doesn't sound like self love at all probably won the reasons? People the objective of having to say hey there an alcoholic which nobody has to say it they don't want to, but but it was oh when I stopped drinking and smoking dope all the time I was taking care of myself much better, and so that was

as I say the external, but on the internal from the meditative standpoint. I think it's watching how you are creating suffering for yourself. So when we watch her thoughts, and we see the ones That are really not helpful. When we realise that our thoughts are not who we are, then we can step away from them and not but believe the self hatred in the thoughts you start to watch your mind, attention the thought that, after a while, you start to see that the thought or just coming there just pouring out and there some of them will-

intention. But then a lot of them want and as we establish mindfulness, we start to realise that we have this capacity to just watch, which means there's some aspect of mind that can just be aware separate from this just profusion of words and images and ideas that are pouring out or pouring through the mind, and so having that experience allows me then, to question the thoughts Because I see that the funds can be contradict one day or one minute I can have one thought and five State or I can have another thought that in turn, disagreement.

So if I think that I am my thoughts, how can my thoughts contradict each other so as I get again that kind of distance from the thoughts than the ones that is sort of embody, this negative self image or self hatred, or you know the ways that I don't like myself. I can start to see that, oh, that's just part of the crap that being generated or this and it's that comes and goes it's not it's not. Maybe it's not true, and that allows me then too. The more kind to myself to say. Ah, ah maybe I'm not

It's just a loser or alert jerk. Maybe that's just an idea. Maybe the highest form of self love is to see that there's no self at all in in that, so you described seeing your thoughts and how contradictory they are and the inference there is that there can't be some solid, coherent self from which they're emanating there just get a little quantum bursts of energy. The mind and at once you see that there is some a month. He lists of view between your ears that it's just a messy process. Often cod, a lot of pain, then you can kind of direct symbol. Or care in your own direction. Might

anywhere near the point here. That makes perfect sense to me here and I think it does somewhat go back to that instinctive response to suffering. That's not bout earning it. You know of somebody's rolled into the hospital on a journey. The doktor doesn't go well, are you could? Are you a good person? so getting back to our individual response? Justin, you're saying you for not judging ourselves, then we're just gonna respond. As lieutenant the suffering of any being. I think that that's what the boy Saying when he's talking about really unconditional love matter, it's just not about individuals has a practice where oftentimes, when the buddha describes practicing loving kindness in the city,

it just describes it as descending loving kindness in like, but ten directions. It's it's very variants. There's no emotion there, particularly its justice. It's this radiating, which it's kind of a beautiful practised when you can get to that place. Where just sit, and you just imagine that out of your from your home, all the poorest body. Hidden from your mind in your heart and everything there's just this likes beaming rays of love going out and spreading imagining it surrounding the world. Even I like the image even upholding the war

latino. Imagining that you have the earth in your arms and you're, holding it and touching all the beings. You know it's really a lovely way to disconnect and to and to feel love and kindness, which I was sort of somewhat discounting. I mean it's, it's beautiful. I love to feel love and kindness again, just a warrant against the urge to feel it all the time or the urge to make it into some special precious thing that only happens on the cushion, but then you walk around in your actual life and are a jerk to people yeah, no, absolutely yeah and and really my most common daily experience of loving kindness is when I'm outside, and I look at trees and listen to birds. Basically a circle.

if the things that birds and trees kind of like trigger it. For me, I had dislike. Stop sometimes clouds, no sun nature. You know, I think nature is a. It evokes loving kindness from us very naturally, it's one of the reasons I mean the buddha lived outside her forfeit. He says, go sit under a tree. What does he said? sit under two. It's not like a random thing and he became enlightened under a tree and supposedly, was born under a tree, and then he died under two trees to solve. Trees saw in, I think, there's a whole story about the buddha and nature that we don't tell enough. I think I miss spoke about self love now that I think back it when I say this to the highest form. Self love is to see there's no self at all. I guess I think what I really

it said was more that it's kind of an act of mercy to yourself to see that there is no solid self there to hate order to be pissed off at all the time to stop taking yourself so seriously. That seems like an act of self love. that's great yeah unless, as an act of mercy, yours do you think, that's right in art, an insight they understand. of how we create itself is an insight. When we have that. We realise that its creation, then we are letting go of the attachment to self which is ending suffering and ending suffering brings happiness, which is another way of talking about love.

yeah. Can you get enlightened, doing loving, kindness practice cause? That certainly seems like. He would argue that, yes, you can, and yet it's often that there's a concept that many listeners will be familiar with this, but just for those who aren't there's a concept of relative vs ultimate, you know an alter. What is ultimately true is that nothing is really solid and stable, everything's changing all the time. Nothing has a true essence, including you. What is relatively true is that you Kevin existed. I exist and we have to put our pants out in the morning and make appointments for ourselves, etc, etc. This practice of loving kindness is often described as a relative practice. I am sending good wishes to you and so would seem to be precluded that you could get enlightened doing this, because your your failing to see the deep them, the ultimate truth, perhaps well anything I say

Hostess pay my own opinion. I have not become enlightened through doing this practice, so I prefer to speak from personal experience. But since I'm on a podcast and being asked the question I'll try to say something useful, I think it does point to. First of all that the buddha is talking about love in the sense that we conventionally think of it, and that, in fact, it is a practice of letting go And that when we are radiating kindness through the entire world, there is Letting go of self in that their is almost a kind of merging said there is this kind of oneness that we are trying to work towards

This practice, it's not really meant to be a dual district practice. It's probably one of the things that I don't love about, doing it in that form away may you be happy, may you be happy and thank you. Individual P while and trader project out to them it. It feels much more natural to just sort of. Radio, love or be love, and in that sense I think that. There's an awakening that can happen through that jack cornfield has a great essay if you ve, never read it. It's called enlightenment, plural, It's an honor, his books, bringing home the dorm, something like that and in it he makes the argument that enlightenment takes many different forms, And then he described talks about the dalai lama's sort of. There the embodiment of compassion, and you know,

mother, teacher s, embodiment of emptiness, and then another teacher. it's the embodiment of just mindfulness, and so he, he kind of says Then enlightenment isn't one thing, of course, that the different schools will tell you that enlightenment is what we tell you. It is and the turk terrible we have a very specific kind of map for it and and as you referred to, I guess we ve done about a little bit and, as it says, in the suitors there's something funding lay about love. and go of, greed, hate, and illusion. It seems like loving kindness practice is a practice of letting

of great hatred. An illusion is certainly a practice of letting go of hatred, and I would say that the risk in it is that it doesn't let go of greed for the feeling that we let were proud if we're practicing for the feeling that we are I attach there and it can be also not letting go of delusion because we can be trying to hold onto that feeling so clearly its. It is letting go of of hatred, but I think the matter suit. It is trying to point to all three of these thanks. I think the practice, if done really in it in its essence, absolutely is upheld to awakening a certain kind of enlightenment, you know the the enlightenment of loving kindness. This has been great as always, and before we go, can you just reminded everybody of the name of the book and

other books that are worth mentioning that you have written and where we can find you online, etc, etc. So either the book when talking about his living kindness buddhist teachings for a troubled world, and on my website is Kevin griffin, dot net, where maya, five other books I get talked about. This is the one book that is not about diction and recovery, so the others are and home doing zoom classes right now, hopefully I'll be out, and about that this next year, maybe even drop into new york. May it be so. Thank you very much we're doing us really appreciate it here. Thanks Janna, I really appreciate you highlighting this been interested in it great thanks again to Kevin great, to talk

again. The show is made by Samuel Johnson, dj cashmere kim by c'mon Maria we're tell and jan point with. Yo engineering by ultra violet, As always a hearty shout out to buy abc news, comrades rank hussar and Josh Cohen and we'll see you on friday for a bonus. Meditation from a new teacher to the tea ph multiverse, her name is don Mauricio. That's coming on friday, she's great. By the way, a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music downloading. Amazon, music, tat today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad!

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