At a time like this, fun may seem frivolous. But our guest today is going to argue — convincingly, in my opinion — that fun is absolutely essential to a well-lived life. She has thought deeply about what actually constitutes fun, and how we can best live a life that is conducive to fun. In other words, she argues that fun is a trainable skill. You may have heard of Catherine Price. She’s been on the show before. She wrote an excellent book called How To Break Up With Your Phone, which had a significant influence on me. We start our conversation by talking about ways to achieve what she calls “screen/life balance” during a time of pandemic and political upheaval, and then we flow directly into fun, which is something you can only have when you put your phone down.
Where to find Catherine Price online:
Website: http://catherineprice.com/
Sign up for the #FunSquad: https://mailchi.mp/screenlifebalance/funsquad
Resources for Screen//Life Balance including a 3-day challenge and social media detox course: screenlifebalance.com
Catherine's writerly social media:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/catherine_price
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_catherineprice/
Social Media "intervention feeds" (designed to help you catch you while you're mindlessly scrolling and help you re-direct your attention):
Instagram: @screenlifebalance / https://www.instagram.com/screenlifebalance
Twitter: @screenlifeblnce / https://twitter.com/screenlifeblnce
Facebook: @slbalance / https://www.facebook.com/slbalance/
Books: http://catherineprice.com/books
In case you missed it, we're running a podcast series to help you stay sane and engaged during this election season — without burning out. Every Monday in October, we'll discuss four tools from ancient teachings to help guide you through this especially challenging time.
You can check out Monday's podcast episode for a taste of the Election Sanity Series. You can also visit tenpercent.com/guide to sign up for our limited-time email guide.
We would appreciate it if you can take a few minutes to help us out by answering a survey. The team here is always looking for ways to improve. Please go to www.tenpercent.com/survey. Thank you.
Other Resources Mentioned:
Freedom (App Blocker): https://freedom.to/
Designing Your Life: https://designingyour.life/
The Book of Delights by Ross Gay: https://bookshop.org/books/the-book-of-delights-essays/9781616207922
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: https://bookshop.org/books/flow-the-psychology-of-optimal-experience/9780061339202
Additional Resources:
Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live
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https://mailchi.mp/centerhealthyminds.org/twwm-2020
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
As you know, we're in the middle of a big series on work here on the pod cast, which was a good time to point out that, even if you love your job, you will experience stress. However, stress does not necessarily have to be a bad thing can actually be something you harness to your own advantage to help you navigate stress this fall. We ve taken one of our most popular courses from the ten percent happier
A course called stress better and we turn it into a meditation challenge. You will learn from a renowned stress researcher, at columbia, university, professor majuba economic and from the amazing meditation teacher. Seventy selassie, but teach you how to use stress to your advantage. It's a seven day, stress, better challenge and a kick
ass on Monday September eleventh, and you can join over on the ten percent happier app right now. Everyday you'll get a short video, followed by a free, guided meditation to help you establish or reestablish your meditation have it to join the stress, better challenge, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting ten percent dot com. That's all one word spelled out if you already have the option to open it up and follow the instructions to join. If you're, not already a ten percent happier subscriber you can join us by starting a free trial that will give you access to the challenge, along with everything else on the app
Oh now, we've got a cat joining us in here too. It's like a whole party is that the closet. This is our new closet yep, oh okay! Oh my goodness, this cat is going to try to come up, I'm going to sheep and a signed photograph
Andrews there we go to the party.
my god, that behind my back of a cat, purring the microphone and a kid who wants to stagger so up, but they have. This goes somebody view, stay you gotta, be quiet,
Is that right cause like what makes you think I wouldn't be quiet totally, but can you keep your cat quiet because his cats, like making sweet, sweet love to the microphone,
There are a lot of beating hearts in this closet right now. It's fair, it's not hot.
It is like an age vat system in their. It's definitely had not been a little bit of hot boxing from certain
kidney, so that's been fun from a b c. This is the ten percent happier podcast dan Harris. We would appreciate it if you would do us a solid if you would take a few.
Minutes to help us out by answering a survey. The team here is always looking for ways to improve. So if you want to help us out hook us up, please go to ten percent dot com forward, slash survey, ten percent dot com forward, slash survey. Thank you at a time like this fun may seem frivolous, but our guest today is going to argue convincingly, in my opinion, that fun is absolutely essential to a well lived life.
She she's thought very deeply about what actually constitutes fun and how we can best live a life that is conducive to fund. In other words, she argues that fun is actually tradable skill. You may have heard of catherine price. She been on the show before she wrote an excellent book called how to break up with your phone, which had a significant influence on me, and we start this conversation by talking about ways to achieve what she calls screen: life balance during a time of pandemic and political upheaval and then with low directly into fun, which is something you can only have when you put your phone down. So here we go catherine price, Catherine,
to see you. I say you do. I know you're looking at me in a village in his can't see we're looking at each other and screenshots. I can see you sitting on your daughter, clair's bed, surrounded by studies, were climbing and stay stuff, goat or sheep at the shape, and I
ava alive cat draped over the back of my chair here and alive five year old, playing with said cat. So it's going to be a this is going to be an interesting podcast. This is one of these days when kids aren't in school, so could get messy. I'm just gonna. Try not to laugh for the entire tariffs Alex
There is in his spiderman pj's, so really right, see you and we there's so much to talk about. Let let's start with you know the last time you were on the show, we're talking about your great book, how to break up with your phone and which I've read a couple times
really really great and unite more to gather
on my phone relationship, but our relationship to technology or what you call screen life balance, has only got
more and more fraud in the pandemic. So
on your mind as it pertains to screen life balance right now. A lot
On my mind regarding scream life balance, because so much of life has shifted onto screens.
As everyone knows now, it just seems completely necessary to be on technology all the time, and so it's been very interesting to think about. Well, how do we maintain some kind of balance, and why is that important during a time when so much of our screen time is necessary both for ourselves and for our children, but I think it's actually more important than ever
I will, let's just because I'm kids are on my mind right now, because I've got one and in this I think, there's idly literally a child on your lap, pretty standing next to me, so he's got the day from school.
What he is learning remotely, I have to say in our school district, the remote learning is actually going very well. I know that is vanishingly rare, but I do worry cause. I watch him sitting in front of a computer learning all day. I've been very proud of his attention span and engagement, and very impressed by
teachers. And yet it's a lot of screen time, and then I wonder you know how to,
That is the other screen time that we ve heretofore aloud
and so, when I know you ve got a little girl. So how are you thinking about these issues?
These issues a lot I mean, I think, that it really depends on the kid and their age in terms of how well,
quoting quote remote learning, is going to work for them. I use the quotes because I think that the learning can be questionable, especially where the little kids, I think, that it's really making it clear that screens are not the same as real life. Kids, make that really clear being in the class with other kids, it's not the same as being in a classroom on zoom and world,
kind of making things work the best we can, but I think most people would agree that this is not ideal and anyway, and I think it's really important to recognise
but it is a lot of screen time for kids. I'm not saying screen time is a bad thing per se, but at least my friends, his kids are in the philadelphia district schools there doing like seven hours a day of zoom for kindergarten, seven hours a day of zoom for an adult is like me. I could never do that and I think that kid's give us a better sense. Physically of what the challenges are.
Because they aren't as good as adults. I mean, actually, I think, they're better than adults, but I don't think they're as able as adults to make themselves sit still for that long. You can kind of see the frustration that we are also feeling as adults, but it's more obvious with a child, and I personally don't think that's great for anyone to be spending that much time just sitting. I mean there's plenty of research just on the sitting, part alone. So if you're, in a situation where you are forced by the situation, to have a lot of screen time for your kid, I think it's really important to figure out ways from that
It breaks to see how their interacting with it are. They actually getting anything out of it and also to, as you were, alluding to really think more consciously about the other screen time they're having try to figure out if there's some way to achieve more balanced there.
The seven arizona zoom you probably don't want to then spend four hours watching movies, because then you're just going to spend your entire waking life staring at a screen. Yeah. Yes, you talk,
Bad Zoom and where my mind went with that was leaping from children to adults. Was this issue of zoom fatigue, which is not a new issue we will talk about this for months,
we haven't actually talking about much on the show it I'll just say for me, zoom fatigue is real
I wonder you know what we ve. We ve set up some norms in the temperate and have your company, where it's totally fine to be audio. Only what you,
review on how to manage zoom the fatigue, the etiquette. All of that I hate them. I mean
ok. I love zoom in that. Sometimes it's nice to see her friends face right now.
I'm doing is that by picture is bigger than your picture on us and I'm thinking, Catherine. Why didn't you pressure here today?
now and then I'm thinking where do I look to look like I'm maintaining contact with Dan Europe?
right hand, side of my scream above a map, and then the dot is in the center atop, so try to stare at the door,
but then I'm not looking at you. But if I look at you, then I'm not looking at you from your perception, that's exhausting and to our brain. It's also exhausting to try to read the queues of a person that were used to seeing in three dimensions in two dimensions: it's much harder to pick up on the subtle facial cues. They would
kate, what you're, feeling or thinking in that moment, it's harder to have the flow of the conversation keep going, because we just part of our brain
is monitoring the screen and
that is unnatural and takes extra work and makes it feel a little bit more forced. You also have the challenge of having to a moat more I've spoken to teachers even before having to use masks if they're, like invitation a person being on zoom, you have to
act liquor an actor in a play and smile more than you would or gesticulate more than you would and that's exhausting. You know. No one's going to be putting on a play for aid.
Or is the day every day of the week, in the same way that some people are sitting in front of zoom calls. I think it's really interesting that a lot of people to express this kind of relief it just a good old fashioned phone call
you don't have to worry about that.
Clearly you, and I are not particularly concerned about our professional parents
I'm not gonna, that in general, but if I had to actually worry about like getting this stuff sheep away from the camera which, by the way, is an excellent back support. At the moment it was just like so performative it it's just exhausting and to go back to the question about kid:
I also am innocent. If I may cause I've been thinking about this, please. I think that it is interesting how we've defaulted to trying to replicate a traditional school experience on a screen, and I understand in many cases that is necessary, because I mean we're just dealing with so much right now and I do not envy teachers or school administrators at all, but I do think that there is an opportunity for us to question. What's the actual objective, whether it's
learning, a skill or some kind of social development and then ask is there another way we could help our children achieve that that doesn't require them to sit in front of a computer all day and the case of my daughter, she's the same age as your son and
and thinking? Ok? Well, she's, not attending kindergarten in person. She does not do what was Zoom and I have a flexible schedule and my husband does as well. Thankfully. So how can we
really facilitate her learning. Whatever skills might be expected ever from kindergarten in a way that retains her love a learning and doesn't require her to try to stay
in front of a screen all day when that is not something that she is very
that at the moment, and also, frankly, not a skill. I want her to have to develop, especially when she's five,
now? I hear you might just jump back to adult for a second.
What are your recommendations for those of us who are struggling with green life balance now when we need screens to do our jobs or to stay connected with other human beings and then we're still
many of us engaging in the same month, maybe more screen time for recreational reasons. You know a watching stuff on our farms going through social media, which is again another way that many of us feel is useful to stay connected
You ve been talking about striking this balance for a long time. How do we do it under these sub optimal circumstances? I think, with interest shown by the current environment is its forcing us to
And with a screen time, in a way that we didn't have to before because become more of an actual issue, I think a lot of times before.
like you, I dont really so great about my screen time, but it's not the most pressing concern, and now it's like, oh, my goodness, and spending all day in front of the stream. I dont know what to do about it. I feel powerless and helpless and they feel out of control and bad about it. So think, there's an opportunity here and what I recommend, which is. What is you know, I've always recommended. Is that you not think about screen time as some kind of lump sum, just in the same way that you wouldn't think about food is just one mass, those different types of food, some of it tastes better. Some of it is better for you and it's the same thing with screen time. So what I recommend that people do is to start by sorting their screen time into the parts that are
necessary and in the parts that are voluntary and for the necessary part you can evaluate that is well. I guess you think about what is the actual purpose there, for example, you probably have to do a calls with work as yours
and though maybe you don't have all those be on a screen if it doesn't feel like that's the best format, for it so figure out what your actual purposes and then say: okay! Well, what is the best way to achieve that remotely with the challenges that
entails for your leisure time. I think that that
Are you really have a lot more leeway to get creative and to think ok in normal times, maybe after spending the whole day interacting with people in person going
and watching netflix and just kind of zoning out is actually exactly what you want and need, but now in a situation where you,
We spent a lot of ours staring screen already and maybe that habit that netflix habit doesn't feel is good, maybe
it actually just coyotes, you feeling lonely and just
Zoom, doubter screamed out or whatever since that's leisure time and that's a choice. You actually can get more creative about what to do with that time, and I think that we tend to just.
think that screens are the only option for leisure and for recreation? And I know we're gonna talk more about this later in our conversation, but what I personally realized is that from a self cause, I was an issue for me to is that we know. Actually, if you take a step back even during a time like this, when our in person interactions are limited, there are still ways to spend our time that doesn't involve screens and often those activities and making us feel better and more refreshed afterwards, and then the next step, I would say for people to think about is once you figured out your purposes re like what your goals are and what you actually want to be doing. Then we need to set boundaries and create kind of structures that will help support those things. I think one of the main challenges for people right now is you got phones in our pockets, we ve got ipods and tvs, and then we ve got computers and between all those things we always have access to a device, and many of those devices have all the same things on them. They have your working out. You know they have the internet, they have your recreational screen time. Everything is on all of the devices
access to at least one of them at all time? It's very easy for a boundaries to bleed earn just does not exist at all. So one thing I recommend is try to figure out like which device are you going to do? Those zoom calls on, and only do it on that device or which device you going to check the news I mean we could talk about the news, that's a huge problem for people always and especially right now, but if you feel compelled to check the news figure out what device and figure out how many times a day and for how long, because it's very easy for that to take over your life. So once you kind of create these guidelines and boundaries for yourselves
then it becomes a little bit easier to keep the parts of your life separate, because that's the main underline challenge right is all
of our lives are blinding together our roles as parents or blending, with their roles as professionally and, as you know, partners,
everything is all happening will actually in your closet right now, so we
figure out some way to keep these things distinct, and the first thing to do is think about how you can start to tease out an untangle the various uses of your device.
Yeah I like that they deserve you couldn't december, regulate some of this. By giving devices does
needed roles, another piece of advice when the many
Why are really click with? You is yours?
in meditation, and you do sir recommend the use of mindfulness it, especially in
your time where you're actually opting into screens. What's your mood like? Can you notice
your mood is like when you are on screens and use that
As a guide for me, I really I made big changes to how I interact with technology. Have done some backsliding since working with you,
But what is it like in an evening when I'm hanging out with my wife, either watching movies or for just talking? What's it like when I've got my phone there,
What's it like when it's in the other room and it's very obvious, it doesn't take
need a year in the himalayas to summon enough mindfulness to see that it's better when the fog
in the other room right exactly. I think that that's a wonderful point, and so the indian I've talked about before that. I try to emphasise this. Technology is actually a wonder
opportunity to bring mindfulness into our daily lives and mindfulness is a wonderful tool to help us manager relationships with technology, and I mean I think, of
all of this stuff. I've been doing all the work I've been doing is really does mindfulness in disguise its basically just tryin, to become better at recognising how you feel about your experience in the present moment, while you're having it and then, if you're, not happy with how that experience is making. You feel gently nudging yourself in another direction. I dont think that there is any reason for us to beat ourselves up over a screen time, especially now I mean come
we need to have anything else to be anxious and like flash later, as that was about, I don't think so so, but without said, we're, probably not feeling our best selves at the moment right, like even physically, if you're spending this by time just sitting there staring at the screen, you're not walking you're not moving around as much so. I think that there are so many opportunities to just checking with yourself gently throughout the day
and say how do I feel right now? I was my breathing how's, my body. How does my brain feel joy feel crease? He is there anything I can do to make myself feel less crazy. That's a question asked myself all the time and like you're saying then just
make a decision based on that realisation, without worrying about what you just did it mean the fact that you noticed it means you're succeeding and they just gently choose a different activity or different use of technology. I completely,
with you. I mean first of all, really are not backside right now because of everything right, but then the second is just the more you can get this habit of just gently chicken.
yourself, the more you realize you actually are in control, and it really does feel different to be checking your phone while you're talking to someone or checking your phone while you're doing anything else versus just doing one thing at one time and right now. What we're doing so much multitasking,
I think it's more important than ever to really home. In on that awareness thing, you can try to create space and com for your brain. When you have the ability to do so
I was looking at a list of advice that you give and I've been working off it as we talk. If I say you give for people who are interested in striking screen life balance at this difficult time, and then I think this next piece of advice flows out of what we ve just
been discussing, which is how to notice, when your stress, scrolling or doomed scrolling keys hung about that. All of us are stress, scrolling and doom scrolling right now, because we are anxious- and I think it's actually really interesting- to talk about- what's happening,
brains when this happens to just a backup doom scrolling stress scrolling. That's when you're, like, oh I'm diet guide, know I shouldn't check. The news is not gonna make me feel good, but here I am, and now it's forty five minutes later and I feel horrible, but I just cannot step scroll and it's not just the news. It's just veto life. I might just find myself scrolling through twitter, or I don't really check instagram that much just because I got nothing else to do or I'm stressed and somehow I think that this is going to give me some dopamine.
Yeah, yeah yeah. I know I'm talking to a new man. I should be careful when I talk about that. No, no! No, no I'm not affect guns. I believe tat. Duration of news consumption is really important. I just they gets a broader problem than just the news. Yes, yes, I guess I was going for the doom aspect.
the protesters, address the growing, whichever way you stress growling, you know you're just scrolling through anything, and you just you know, and part of your brain is not making you feel good, but you feel like you, can't stop, and I think it's useful for people to recognize that when you're feeling stressed out the part of your brain that actually can help you make rational decisions. The prefrontal cortex actually goes offline under stressful conditions, which is unfortunate,
that's when we need at the most so right now. I think, for many reasons, many of us are filling a lot of stress and where it therefore more likely to turn to something to soothe ourselves, whether it stress scrolling or some kind of substance, honestly, and even if we know that that's rashly not the best thing for us to be doing for ourselves. Our brains are actually in an altered, state will restrict out and it becomes more difficult to resist or not give in to the temptation of just scrolling, and I say that just to give people and understanding so that we beat ourselves up a little less when we find ourselves doing those things have some compassion for yourself. It makes sense from a brain perspective that you are doing, that
But with that sad, like you doesn't mean you need to keep falling into those spirals, the first step, as we discussed as the awareness that you're doing it. Sure, like oh boy here I go again, even if you notice that after forty five minutes, you're still succeeding cause you noticed it and then the next thing is to figure out ways that you might be able to limit that we already discussed trying to assign particular uses to particular devices. So only looking at the news on your desktop, for example, not having your work, email on your phone installing and
uninstalling apps, to help yourself, for example, I remember a damn when we worked together last. You were talking about how, at least at that point, you had taken twitter off your phone and you were going to reinstall it for quote twitter related emergencies,
the field which I thought was a brilliant idea, because just that twenty seconds or so that it takes to reinstall an app, is often enough for us to recognize what we're doing and then pick a different direction. I call those speed bumps and there's also like apps. You can use that can help you with that, such as freedom, which is an app blocker, that you can use to limit, actually limit your time on particular apps and websites, as opposed to
that. Our glass that apple shows you that says: do you want to ignore year time limit and then you of course say? Yes, I want to ignore it than you feel doubly bad about yourself. There's lots of little techniques you can use once you have the awareness that you're in the stress scroll to get yourself out of it and one of the most important things this figure out, an alternative you have to have something to do in those moments
not scrolling otherwise you're relying on willpower to resist it and that's a horrible way to try to change a habit. Once again you ve kind of brought us right up to the line of this.
Have fun, but before we dive in on fun, because I really want to go deep on it. Looking at this list, which was sent to me by the intrepid samuel, Johns who's, the producer of the show and another is
and a house. I think I'm an offender in some ways on this, or at least in some day parts you advise us not to try not to start and end the day with our phones. Why look it's a horrible way to start and end your date and because, if you,
check your phone first thing in the morning. But let's back up for a second, your phone, more specifically the apps on it, are designed to steal your attention from you and your time, because that is how they make money, because most of the apps that are the most problematic derive their revenues from advertising and the more data they can collect from us and the more time we
on them? The more valuable we arbiters of advertising so to do that at makers
deliberately mimic and copy techniques from slot machines churn very addictive
so we are already at a disadvantage when we open our phones, because there are so many tricks, psychological tricks built into these apps to keep us scrolling. There's people who are extremely smart, who built these there's algorithms that know exactly what it's going to take to keep us scrolling. So we are really at a disadvantage when it comes to maintaining control of our time. To begin with, I bring that up, because if you look at your phone first thing, the more
and you're. Basically saying the first thing that you're going to do in your day is to allow an app maker or an algorithm to decide how you're going to spend your next thirty to forty five minutes or even longer
er. I don't think any of us would say that our number one goal in any days to check instagram or to check twitter or even to check the news, but we're going to do that because that's how apps are designed so one
most important things we can do if we want to regain our time and feel in control of our lives is to make sure that we are in charge of when we look at our devices in the morning and when we look at them before bed, and I think that those are to the most effective times to start with when it comes to taking back control of your device.
is because you're kind of like easy targets. So, first of all, in the morning, every use their phone as an alarm clock. Stop doing that, because if you want to turn the alarm off, you have to touch your phone. I recently got this watch that vibe,
weights. You have- and it has an alarm that vibrates and wakes you up via vibration, and I found that to be really effective, because I don't have to hear a beep and wake up. My husband- and I also don't need to use my phone and maybe you can use whatever, obviously alarm clock. He won't get an alarm clock, also get a watch so that you're not beholden to your phone.
Whenever you want to wake up because that's just going to get you started. I also highly recommend- and you know this dan- to charge your phone out of your bedroom, and I said Dan knows this- for people who did not see us work together because he has a charging station in his closet or at least in your old closet, which is part of the phone breakup process that I recommend people go through is if you have your phone within arm's reach.
It is within our reach, far better to charge it somewhere out of reach. I dealing on the bed room so that you actually have to get up and go to the phone and for me I charge it in a closet myself. I dont forbid myself from checking my phone once its charging. I just have to get up and go to the closet and its physically kind uncomfortable, and so I just don't spend as much time their aims as for before bed I mean she's. Our phones are so stimulating, there's so much content that is designed to keep you scrolling and keep you awake, not to mention the light from the phone itself. So if you want to sleep well,
which is always important, but even more important during pandemic times, both for your sanity and also for your immune system. Then you don't wanna, have something that's designed to keep you up with you right before we try to go to sleep,
final recommendation that I wanted to discuss with you is these: are your words remember them?
you're more than a head sitting on a body. It so easy to forget that it so easy to forget that we actually have entire physical bodies, but they are really important and they also have a lot to tell us about how we're doing mental
and this goes to wear your time? I was soon fatigue. Part of Zoom fatigue is just from sitting all day. Sitting is horrible for us horrible for our health. It's also not fun, and I think that it's too easy to just forget that you, a physical body that can move and walk and dance ends play and once you tap back into that you often people are surprised by how much they do
I realize they were missing that I think that's especially true for kids, were so concerned about what they're going to learn skill wise in terms of intellectual things, that we forget that movement is incredibly important for the pleasure of it and also because we tend to learn better when we're moving and b. There's just a lot of positive things. That happened when our bodies are in motion, we're not designed to just sit and think all the time. Much more of my conversation with catherine price,
right after this date tommy's? My group go to the law from prime videos, the lord of the rings, the rings of power,
marrying a special episode of whose amazing life it's a podcast for kids. That lets you experience. Life
the eyes of someone who changed the world and you'll have to guess who it is: here's a hint he has
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all around the world and his story is tat. You do that to me.
his story in english or and this by your play, listening to peruse amazing light on amazon or wherever you get your podcast. I want you to picture steve jobs
tinkering with a computer and his garage walt disney drawing cartoons for his high school newspaper, every big mouth
It starts with a big dream, but what happens when that dream turns out to be an even bigger family
each week on wonder- is new podcast the big flop host me.
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So what are you thinking why, in the world did this get made from box office flops like cats, the movie to action park, new jerseys, infamous theme parks
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brought us right up to the threshold of the subject of funds. So let's go there. Why? And how did you become interested in fun.
How do I become interested in fun, as I guess is becoming obvious? There was a direct offshoot of my interest in having a better relationship with my phone and developing what I call better screen life balance, and it really came from the fact
when you remove something from your life or cut back on some annually.
that you had been spending a lot of time on you're going to be left with a lot of extra time. I think I touched upon this the last time you and I spoke, but when I was breaking up with my phone for the first time,
To clarify that does not mean dumping, it just means creating a healthier relationship. I just remember having this time
when I was dead, decided not to be in my phone or any screens
and I was alone my daughter was asleep. My husband was out- and I was like this- should be any parents dream an hour of time that I can do whatever I want with, and I couldn't think of anything to do. And that was a horrible revelation, because I like to think of myself as someone who lives life fully and has interests and has passions. As my college roommate used to talk about the sheet. A goal of being interesting and interested.
And I was like, oh my goodness I have somehow. I don't feel, like I m, that any more and that really prompted a bit of an existential crisis for me, but that in turn, prompted me to really think about like what do. I want to spend my time on because
I, even with my background in mindfulness, have been allowing apps and algorithms to fill my time for me, and that is not how I want to live my life and for me that
also to me signing up for guitar classes cause I play piano and I supposedly always wanted to learn guitar, but never a time for it and that changed my life, like I even since last year, when I spoke so I started taking classes, I began to learn. New skills on the guitar is introduced me to a whole community of adults,
having fun together, and I started to realize that that was what I had been missing. I had been missing the sense of being engaged and care free and totally myself free of
and don't responsibilities and for me, music is banned. The number one way for me to tap into that. I feel like I'm a completely different person from where I was. I guess that was three or four years ago, when I first had that existential moment, and I have also realised that there's other things that I can learn about or do the world is full of fascinating things. That sounds like a stupid thing to say, because obviously it is but like I even after spending you
is writing about this phone stuff? Hadn't really fully interrogated myself about, like what else do I want to learn beyond music like what else could I get interested in, and this has resulted in all sorts of like random pursuits over the past couple of months, for example, becoming and becoming interested in
clouds I was like, there's clap their been around my whole life I mean. Obviously men will be better if I don't know anything about clouds. Maybe I should go
by clouds and that might seem kind of like silly, but how much less silly or more silly is that than looking and instagram
I mean now. I know about clouds, and now I've taught my daughter about clouds and she will come up to me and say I think that's accumulates nimbus unlike
yes, it is like, and that is a little dose of fun anyway to all, and I think what I'm trying to say is that when I realized,
had empty time as a result of spending less time. On my devices I freaked out, because I didn't know what to do with that time, then I started trying to figure out what I wanted to do that
and what I realized is that, but I want to fill my leisure time with as much as possible. Is this feeling of true fun?
I've had a similar interests recently nodding clause, but in trees,
gas raised the over story, be my husband read that yeah, it's some unbelievable I've, I've rhapsodize about it on the show before so I keep my mouth shut, but it's amazing. You said a few moments ago that,
a completely different person or a different person. In many ways this was in conjunction two year.
qatar adventures? What do you mean by that.
It sounds really dramatic and I guess I should back up and say I don't actually think I'm a new person or a different person. I think I got back in touch with who I actually
So maybe it was more of just a rediscovery of who
and who I wanna be. I dont want to be someone who sits in front of a computer for eight to ten hours a day and just compulsively checks email until I die that
and sound like you know, I don't want that. I'm a tombstone like a chief. She achieved inbox zero, that's like with personal I won't, but even if I were to, I think I really just.
Kind of remember that, like I used to have passions, I used to laugh a not to say that my life is devoid of laughter or devoid of fun or pleasure, or mean certain
wasn't, but I just realized that my balance was out of work and
she now, I'm remembering one of the other triggers was that I'd read a book called designing your life, which I highly recommend by these two stanford design, professors about applying design principles to crafting a joyful and meaningful life, and one of the exercise is they have people do is to measure their their life in terms of where they look, imagine you got fuel gauges in work, love.
health play- and I remember thinking- ok, I'm right on love, I'm great on how it will pretty great on health. I've got type one diabetes great on work, but play my plague. Age is at zero. How did that happen like how
What do I do about that, and I remember like torturing my husband over this- he was like, oh god, are we really talking about the play gauge again? I'm like yes, I needed my play gauge it's empty and I think that that is because you know, as you become,
adults, and we get older like more and more responsibilities creep in, and
and things that are wonderful and objectively good, like having a kid or having a career. You love, they still take the place of other things used to do in your more
carefree times, and they also bring added weight and added responsibility, and it's really easy to just let those things that kind of light you up start to fade away, because there's so many. It means similar to how the apps fill your time. There's so many responsibilities that start to fill your time as an adult, and I think that you start to lose the play your playfulness and that it really requires a conscious effort to carve out
time and space to bring that back in. But I think what I realise that doing that is one of the most meaningful and important things we can do for ourselves and not at all. So I mean it is selfish, but selfish and the best of ways, because it means that your own reserves are going to be filled.
so the old more to give to everybody else in your life as well. So, given
that you are who you are. You didn't only wake up to this idea and you know execute in a half hearted way. You went at it
and you started this thing called the fun squad wrote me and not because you called me and said: he'd do this thing, but because I said
iran, an email- and I thought, oh, the eighty eight struck a chord for me. Just as the paragraphs you just uttered struck a chord with me about how there's something missing,
release for me and my own life. So details about the funds web
I was ready how to break up recover your phone. I recruited this group of people. I called guinea pigs to try out my ideas as those trying to build this thirty day plan to help people rebuild a healthier relationship, a technology, and I was really cool and
removing honestly to see people's feedback through that process and to realize how many people were struggling with the same things and also to realise that at our core, most people want the exact same things out of life,
and I thought well, I want to do something similar with fun, because one thing is very obvious to me: is that different people have different interpretations of fund, something it's fun for you might not be funded, offer me, or some of you know that there is indeed
well differences, and I wanted to learn more about that. I wanted to test out what else proposed universal definition of fun and then try to tease out what I've been calling fun factors which are just individual situations or people or characteristics of experiences that bring fun to particular people, so, in other words, tease out the differences in our definitions of what fun is. And yes, why recruited this fun squad and it's still ongoing people can sign up for it at screen. Life balance dot com if they want to task those questions and to try out some of my ideas- and I have to say it's just
It has been so fun and so wonderful said, read through people's responses. Even one of the things I asked, as you know, Dan is for people to reflect on past experiences that they would describe as corner quote so fun.
can target wire, but that so in there now, when I read through people's experiences of like the most
memories of their lives it just it actually brings tears to my eyes, there's something truly beautiful and joyful about
reading through response after response of what people experience when they felt this particular, I guess emotion, so what one of the things you ve done? That's really interesting is to break fond down into its component parts in the build up to a definition he walks through that.
Sure. First, I think one of the problems with the word fun is that there's no agreed upon definition, which is fascinating. I mean, if you look at the dictionary you're gonna, find that it's like light hearted enjoyment, but you also find making fun of people which are doing those are totally different and I would say not the fund that I'm talking about and if you try to look into the scholarly research about fun, you'll find things like one guy said it's a book about fine, I mean granted, as does the book called puritans at play, so how fine can
maybe, but in this book this guy is like the definition of fun is quote: maddeningly elusive and I read that knows
dude you're, writing a book about fun and you can't define it like. Oh boy. This is both a big problem, but also like a pretty cool opportunity to try to figure out what it is. I also came across there
very many but scholarly articles about fun and several of them said that a middle east as of two thousand and seventeen, the authors of these articles, couldn't find fun in the index of any social psychology book, which is fascinating because at the same time it's often described as like a primal state like that everybody knows what fun is viscerally and then it's important to animals and people alike. So I was trying to figure out okay. How can I possibly like break the sound of the parts and I realized one of the challenges we use fun in our everyday speech, very broadly you'll say: oh, I watched
movie for fine. I read books for fine but went out for drinks for fine, but if you ask people what they really truly experience as a peak fun moment in their lives, it's not going to be watching netflix. It's not going to be reading a book, it's probably going to be so
involving a shared experience with other people or with another creature, and is probably going to be something while say it will be something where they lost track of time, where they felt completely engaged in present and not distracted and there's going to be some element of playfulness and light heartedness. You just can't care too much about what's happening when you're having fun once you start to add that weight to it. It's not fun. So when I thought about it and research
and then came up with the definition for myself. I came up with a definition that fun in the main way that I use it. It means playful connected flow. The playfulness I just talked about, which is that you just can't, have weight to it, and you also can't be self conscious. You need to be in a sense of freedom and often a sense of being outside of your normal existence, which often happens. I've been reading a lot of literature about play when you are in a state of play, you're kind of separate
you're normal reality now, the connection, it's really surprising. How often there are other people, as I said, cause? I also ask people on this fund squad surveys. Do you consider yourself an interpreter
You re like: where are you on a scale from one to seven of those two, and can you have fun alone? Nearly everyone said
I thought they were gonna have fun alone, and then I had a wide range for the introvert extrovert. But when I ask people what surprised them about the experiences they described as truly fun, many people said I'm really surprised by how often they included other people
You know what I think of myself as an interview, but nearly all the experiences I just described for you, because I asked him to describe the experiences before asking them that involved other people, so I do think it's possible to have fun alone.
but most of the time there is another person order, the creature, you feel a connection with. I also think you can feel connected to your physical body going back to what we are talking about before about not just being heads on bodies. We actually are full creatures, so if you're in extreme sport or your challenging yourself physically- and you have a sense that that was really fun, it's probably cause. You really felt a connection and integration between all the parts of your
self and sometimes is with the activity itself or something with nature or the environment that you're in that you feel, is kind of fusing together the sense of connection and that kind of overlaps a bit with the last part of the definition which is flow, and this is a psychological term coined by sky.
he sent me high. This hungarian guy's name is always written out. His cheeks sent me high when
ever. Anyone like we did not speak hungarian to pronounce pronounces to, hopefully I'm not, but
during that- and that is the state in which you're completely engaged in present and lose track of time. You can
might like an athlete who's in the middle playing a game or even right. Now, like in the conversation where I'm fully focused on what we're discussing and reality doesn't seem to exist beyond this, this is called the state of flow. So when you put all those three things together, I believe you achieve what I'm,
oh, it's true fun and what I think is really interesting is all three of those states are positive. Like is great if you can build a life, that's more playful, more connected or has more flow,
you're succeeding. It doesn't really. You don't need to have all three of those together, but if you have all three of those,
There's something really magical happens, and that is when you, I believe you have fun. So I'm trying to think about
I'm sure everybody's doing this thing about my own life and look what qualifies here now. I'm pretty sure I am unable to do this because the pandemic
when I get together with friends and play music, that's got all the component. Parts of thinking
more about. I have been able to have socially distanced outside gatherings with friends, drew credibly meaningful to me during the summer, and I find them to be really fun,
but I don't know that they meet all of the component parts. What do you think? Well? Why do you think they don't? Well, maybe they do I'm definitely connected whether it's playful in any given moment depends on what we're talking about or what we're doing. So, if we're swimming or something like that or playing a game with the kids, maybe it is playful and the flow. The sort of losing track of time also is connected to sort of what's happening in that moment, I'm connected the whole time, but I may swing in and out of states of flow and playfulness yeah. I think that that's well, first of all,
fine cause all three of those results. In a great experience. I would I'm going to guess that it's more playful than you might even interpret, because I found that that was one part of the definition when I was testing that definition out with people that they sometimes didn't think applied as much because it wasn't specifically a game that they were engaged
they weren't specifically doing some. May you be like, let's play
No, but I would say like what we're doing right now is playful.
like I'm having fun doing this, because
Oh, I don't know like everyone knows that sheep
pardon me. I think that you asked for words like nothing, taking it too seriously and it's fun and
bantering and getting to talk about something I at least find really interesting. That's the playfulness! So if you're engaging in conversation, even if you're in like a political debate with a friend but you're, both on that you know, you haven't, crossed the line where it's actually getting heated and you're angry at each other, but your child
Jim each other that still playfulness and you can see now with animals, if you see like animals like play, fighting thing and get pretty close to actually fighting
but they know when to back off and that's the sense of play I'm talking about. I should also clarify. I dont think you can just like have fun
You say like today, I'm going to have fun at four p m. It's quite elusive is kind of like romance for if you try to force it is not going to happen, and this is a somewhat
happiness in that way, I would say that we have set so much, as you know like about how I'm be happy but being
is not a very helpful verb. Just as the capping
I think, as a little bit more helpful, because it's a little bit more active to have fun versus like I want to be happy with great I mean like
I want to be taller. I have no way to do that. That's not like an actual full call, so I think instead, what would I encourage us to do is try to set the stage for fun to know what the parts of fun
and in a broad sense, I am arguing that that's playful connected flow and to use those almost as a compass or like a guiding star so that, when you're making decisions in the moment about how to spend your time in this ties back to what we're talking about with leisure time and more screens fall into it. Ask yourself: does this feel fun? Does this feel like it's gonna, be an opportunity for playfulness or connection or flow, and if it doesn't,
You have the option to say no to it and actually can be a really useful compass that can guide you toward a life that I believe, will be more joyful and meaningful and fun without trying to force a too much. You said before that mean your research around this. You really got the sense that people, even the introvert, we're having trouble finding examples of truth,
nor so fun that didn't involve other people. Can you have fun alone? What would that look like? I think that certain people can have fun alone. I've got a friend who is
a bit of an interview really creative, incredibly talented and actually on one of the saint. During my like obsession over my plague age, we were on a weekend trip together with a bunch
other people and he went off into the woods and he built this anti goals, were they kind of like structure out of rocks in the stream. He like froze these rocks together to create this cool bridge and
To me, that would have been like being creative, but not necessarily fun, but I actually truly believe that to John that was a fun experience that he felt really connected there. He was being playful and he was in flow, and I have read some examples from the fun squad anecdotes people have shared where I'm like yeah. I think that that spirit is the same as what I'm describing and trying to get at me. Personally, my most fun is going to be with other people. I can have some degree of fun on my own, but my peak fun experiences personally all involve other people.
Meta. You ve got this acronyms spark. What is what is that as trying to figure out how you actually coax more fun into your life without attacking it directly right because
each year. The aims you hard at it is just not going to happen like you
force fun, and we all know that you know if say, someone's like really trying to get. You play a game or something you're like. I don't wanna play this stupid game and it's like not fun on off often sneaks up on us. So how do we sneak up on fun? And so I was trying to think about like things we could do. That would be a little bit more concrete than playfulness and connection of flow to achieve. Playfulness connection flow, and I came up with this acronym spark, which I can go through quickly: the ss for making space for it. You've got to have space in your life mentally and also physically, actually to allow some fun to happen.
I mean that can be in terms of your own stress levels like trying to clear out a bit of your responsibility so that you can actually allow yourselves to be free. I think than your stress levels will its self reinforcing the more fun you have. The less stressed, you're gonna feel, but you got it back of a bit of an effort to begin with and also like producing distractions, because, as we have discussed like, we have distraction machines in our pockets at all times, you're gonna have to figure out how to create some actual space so that you can be fully present in your own life. His any distraction is anathema to flow and flow is required for fun. So put those two things together, you gotta have fewer distractions. The p is for pursue passions, and it goes back to what we are speaking about in terms of actually having something you're interested in, and that makes you interesting and that is very active.
And I think that is what distinguishes the type of fun I'm talking about for more passive consumption like just watching a movie or scrolling through your phone, which might be relaxing our enjoyable but has not really fun and that something that I think you can do even in times when you can't have that type of human connection you might want to
like when you are locked down or when you can't be in a room with other people. You can still find things that interest you or skills you could develop. That then will set you up.
So that you can hit the ground running when you actually are able to interact more with people. The aim is for attract funds to become kind of like that attractive person when it comes to fund. One of the questions I ask in the fund squad is for people to describe someone that they know whose fun and just look at the
critics of those people, and a lot of it does seem to come down to a mindset like a fun mindset is what I'm thinking of it as where you're just open to experiences you opened spontaneity. You take a playful approach to things you try to find the light, hearted angle, to any experience that you're having an I also
you can actually create structures for fun. You can actually create an environment that makes it more likely that fun will be attracted to it kind of like a salt lick for a deer where it's like. If, for example, one in one anecdote someone share with me about one of their fun experiences, is this pie competition they've been doing for the past five years? Weirdly two separate people told me about pie, competition.
and I don't think they know each other, but it was this a lap
weird thing where there was a structure to it was a contest it had brackets like march madness for the best pie labour,
people got really really involved in it and took a very in a quote seriously. They made impassioned speeches for them,
butter, pecan or whatever, like their preferred, is that a pie flavor? I don't have diabetes in a pipe but whatever it might be, and everyone had fun because that structure of this contest, the absurdity of it allowed people to become more playful and to let go a little bit because they understood what the rules were. So it's a weird weird thought to have that you could create a structure for something sponte.
user playful, but you can then the hours for rebelled and spark
that I realized is because Qaeda were just. I mean the escape from responsibilities is really a big part of this, and so many people describe that when they're tearing true fun, they feel this lightness and the sense of their escape
from their normal life, so just was thinking like how do you build in more opportunities for that in your normal life? In a way? That's not
Rebellion like go do but like cocaine or something I'm talking about like these people always comes to my for me, as I feel responsible. We listen to the news on the radio, because I'm responsible adults in the
hard, but maybe I dont need to do that, and maybe I can actually just turn on a song I loved when I was in high school and I can sing along loudly in the privacy of the car and not have to be an adult for a minute that is weirdly and surprisingly rejuvenating, and so just these little opportunities to step out
if you're normal. Even if it's something like don't follow the Google ladies directions just go a different direction or take a five minute detour. Anything. It really doesn't take much, which is kind of sad, but it doesn't take much to have this sense of playful rebellion and the last one is k which
Keep at it I similarly to break every phone. If you go through the process, you are not done same with my fulness right, you're not like
I meditated for thirty minutes today. I am done. I have achieved then or whatever you have to keep at it. You have to actually keep it a priority and keep working at it and continue to carve out space for those, because if you don't, the rest of life is just going to flow right back in and take the space that you tried to create for it.
I actually think K is crucial. The keeping added really goes to one of the core insights for me that
been so impact for my own life, and a huge part of the work I do is is that these things
that we want in our life relief that we say we want in our life.
Fun being among them, but also gratitude connection happiness whatever. These are all skills in many ways, and I hadn't until I saw your fun squad thing, come
in my inbox I was probably do scrolling earth stress rolling. I hadn't thought about fund as a
something you can cultivate in your life and be systematic about, and I think that such an incredible idea and
and I do wonder a little bit for myself and for others. Ok! Well, if I'm putting this on my too,
list, or from making a project of this, am I sucking all the fun.
if my putting some stress in in that way, yeah that's a question. I've gotten from other people, too, is like okay. Now it's on my to do list, and now I'm just stressed out more and I feel worse about myself. So that goes back to the you know. You don't want to beat yourself up.
Refund. I mean come on. Let's take the words that you, like all my god and failure to find in addition to everything else in my life, I'm just going to deal with girls
or that's, not our intention. So I think you really need to be like kind to yourself in this and really almost like. Despite the fact, this whole things about having more funds, don't think about fun per se. Think about this concept of playfulness and connection and flow, and when one exercise I encourage people to do through the fun squad, which was directly inspired by the book. Designing your life is to create what I call fun times journal, which is to regulate and actually know what going back to what we're talking about before it. When you put your phone out of reach before bed, what are you gonna do with that time? Well, one thing you could do is have a sheet of journal prompts or just a blank piece of paper and just jot down some of the things you did during your day. This also connects to what you're talking about in terms of mindfulness and awareness of your your moment to moment existence and say: okay, like what did I do and then how did it make me feel
and actually make that into a ritual for yourself and a practice. For example, I might say: okay, I woke up, and I checked my email like okay, that might have been, I mean honestly, was it necessary? I dunno it's not like people, nothing's gonna burn. If I don't check my email like that, didn't feel playful or connected or flow or if it did feel flow. It didn't feel like
good flow to me, then, maybe I spent on my daughter like how did that feel then I may be practised music kind of that feel. I talked to her friend. I went for a walk whatever it may be, and just note in particular, if any of those activities or people or physical environments give you a sense of playfulness connection or flow which deposit of sense and, if so, just indicate that, and if you happen to experience more than one of those things indicate that and if you experienced all three of them,
I put a big circle around it, because that's the type of thing you should be aware of, so that you can again orient yourself towards that sort of experience in the future. Will you be able to replicate it perfectly? So the experience the same degree of you know whatever
degree of fun that you had probably not, but if you build more of those types of experiences into your life, you are upping your chances that you'll slip into that, so that that I think, is a great practice for people just start with and a way to make it seem like less burdensome. I mean cheese. Again, we don't need more burdens. Another thing I found to be really useful for people was this practice of noticing delight. A friend of mine had told me about a book called the book of delights by a poet named ross gay and even before reading his book, my friend and I and my friend vanessa, and I had developed this kind of game. The two of us were, we would just
noticed delight things that delay us lives. Anything like a pretty tree, I really didn't take much anyway, was remotely delightful and you ve stick a finger in the
and you got delight with a little wag cause. That's what he describes in his book and
We were laughing about how good they made us feeling
there are two another game that she and I are perhaps more disposition really prone to which be like anxiety,
like a negative buyers like we could have done that, fearful things causing fear but thou art, a male version aversion it's actually, but by the when you orient towards delight, I mean a really made a difference in the it just makes you smile to do it, and then I actually read his book and in his book, which I highly
I command, and I recommend, if you don't know if you've interviewed him, but you totally should interview him. He puts in parentheses these things that delight him and he puts to light with an exclamation point and and talks about how his own experience noticing delight, because this man, the premise of the book, is he spent an entire year, trying to write an essay a day about something that.
Blinded him yeah, but he talks about how the more you noticed the light. The more delight reveals itself to you, and he also says he's not trying to make light of the world
talks about a lot of very weighty things in the book, but with that said just because the
What is weighty doesn't mean. You can't also experience and find delight, and so I encouraged people in the fun squad to take this practice on themselves and just notice things that sparked it
any sense of delight and then label them, ideally with his finger and it's been so cool to see the results of this. I've got random, strange
Emily me photos of things that delighted them. I've heard of friends who now have text chains and some of which I am on that are like delight chains and you just
send things and then delight with an exclamation point and it's been absolutely lovely and to me it's kind of an offshoot of a gratitude practice. You know where the traditional practice, which has been validated in positive psychology, is having a mood boosting effect of noticing her or being conscious of things you're grateful for, but after a while that, can I dunno
mobility, a burden or a little. It just seems a little harder to me than being. Like. Oh look at that bird delight. You know it's just a little bit
easier and delightful, and I think it into that. The light mindset also opens you up to the possibility for more playfulness, which in turn will get you into situations that you experiences true fun. I think you could do both gratitude as a trinity
skills compelling to me in just adding delight on. As a young tour replacement doors, whatever practice, that's
It's great yeah cause. We we tend to gloss over these things in our lives, cause we're running through our to do list or our enemies list or whatever it is, and we're not seeing like that. Cardinal that just flew through the
whatever it is yeah, and you say that cause I saw a cardinal this morning. Oh,
Not right now says you're in a closet about it.
That would be be perhaps a problem, but you know it
All the algorithms that were exposed to every day are not geared towards delight, so I think that is actually a very proactive, important thing to do to protect ourselves. So it's not just a delightful practice is actually quite self protective, because I can guarantee the front page of your favorite newspaper is not geared towards any kind of delight at its there to stimulate some more a mig tillage, driven, emotion, like fear or anger, social media as well, and so we need to fight back, and I think one way to do that which interesting that you can do on some of these channels. That might otherwise stresses out is too pro actively seek out and label.
Share delight. That is my treat. Essentially, this whole interview has been excellent and useful and a delight. I feel the same
So before we go, can you plug areas?
that go in including the fun zone, because I think people might be interested in joining it. I did it and I got a lot of it sure. Yes, so if anyone interested in joining the fun squad, I've got it.
squad sorry, but you know you're in the funds down dan and ice, I'm in alexandria, plagues down, because our own other feeling they should have something like that balances and maybe like a ball pit nets, very, not pandemic, friendly or possible at the moment, so fun squad, you can sign up its screen life balanced outcome, and that also is the home. Where I put all of the resources. I've developed have got a lot of free stuff on there like a three day phone breakup challenge at conversation, starting kid
if you're, an educator, a lot of teachers have been using how to break up with their phone speaking of online remote education been so cool to hear from teachers who have been using it as part of their curriculum. So I created special resources for teachers and for book clubs and for people who have someone in their life whose relationship is causing them stress, because I feel like a couples therapist a lot of the time, so they've also created a social media, detox course for people who are struggling with that particular- and I was struggling myself to figure out. How can I possibly have a social media presence? I don't care about social media.
at my book agent thinks that's a horrible thing for an author to say I was like how can I reconcile my hatred of social media with my need to have a social media presence, so I created social media feeds that are designed to get you off of social media and
can find those also on the website, screen life balance, but there's some version of screen life balance on instagram, facebook and twitter that you can follow it and you'll get messages like it's sunday morning. How much of it you want to spend on your phone or like life is short. How much do you want to spend on instagram and I've heard them described as being like a quote cold shower, which, in this context, is one of the highest compliments? Anyone could pay to me great job with this. Thank you so much. Oh! Thank you dan. It is always a pleasure.
big thanks to catherine beg thanks as well to everybody who worked so hard to make the show a two point. Five ex per week reality samuel, johnson, garcia producer moorish nitrogen, is our
dusar are sound. Designers are met ointment and on your sheep from ultraviolet
audio maria nortel is our production coordinator. We had a ton of unbelievably helpful input from our ph colleagues, such as Ben Rubin, gent point liz, Levin and neat toby and, of course, big. Thank you to my a b c news, comrades, ryan, kesler and Josh Cohen will see you on friday.
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Transcript generated on 2023-09-13.