The hello everybody, it's damn every once in a while. Here on the show we like to point you in the direction of another, show that you might like, and that's what we're doing today. I recently was a guest on a podcast called the one you feed hosted by. eric Zimmermann and when a drop that interview here on this feed as a way to maybe get you interested in the other work that Eric is doing in this interview. A talk about dare what's been like for me to transition away from my life in tv news. What I learned from the podcast series we ran a few months ago called get fits Lee and how I have an inner character that I've nicknamed r J, whose a gigantic pain in the ass. It was a great conversation. I hope you, joint, and maybe you get their turned on to all the other stuff. Eric Zimmermann is doing check out the one you feed podcast. Wherever you listened to Pakistan, these skill

because of mindfulness compassion com concentration. The various skills that can be taught through meditation. You just keep getting better and there's not as much of a physical limitations like there's a ceiling on how good I can get a basketball. The welcome to the one you feed through time. Great thinkers have recognised the importance of the thoughts we have courts like garbage in garbage out or you are what you think ring true and yet for many of us our thoughts, don't strengthen or empowers. We tend towards negativity, self, pity jealousy or fear. we'll see what we don't have, instead of what we do, we think things that hold us back and damp and our spirit, but

not just about think our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed the good wolf. The thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dan Harris he's the The number one new york times best selling memoir ten percent happier about affinities, optical news anchor, who finds meditation, he's also the host of the ten percent happier podcast and a co founder of the ten percent happy meditation app. twenty one years. He worked at abc news where he anchored such shows as night line and the weekend editions of good morning. America again The show thanks for having me it's a pleasure

have you back on? I was saying to you right before we started that I think the last time we did this. We did it in person, and you were still at abc at the time. So we came to We are offices in new york and did their you and me and Oren, who I know is a part of your app and been on your podcast a few times. That's right! Well, I think in the interim, both of us have been able to quit corporate jobs. Yes, so that is news. That transition been good for you in most ways. Yes, it's great because mama control of my own schedule, for twenty one years. As much as I loved a b c news and I really loved it. My life was really at the whims of some crazy person walks into a supermarket with an AK. Forty seven I got a fly there. You know and yeah I was younger. It was exciting to be at the whims of the new cycle and, as I got older and had a lots of other stuff, an affair

it was harder and harder for me to do so. That part is great, and you know I'm around my family much more than I was at the peak of my time. At a b c, I was working nights, anchoring, nightline and then weekends anchoring good morning, america, so that really took me out of the mix and so now I have a lot more time to be with my sound and my wife into all, that's great once it I feel some identity crisis stuff around. You know no longer and anchor man, and you know what am I then, that kind of thing, but that's pretty fleeting yeah yeah I buy enlarge. I love my change, but there were things about it that I liked I liked you know we went into an office and there were problems that kind of needed solve that didn't have anything to do with the human mind. You know, and I kind of occasionally liked you know something like a software problem that I could go fix. That was very straightforward. Yeah. You were working kind of crazy hours. I know there for awhile for a long time. Yes, yes,

crazy hours yeah. So we always start this podcast. The way that we have all along, which is by the reading of the wolf parable so I'll, go henriette t gonna, get your up to date, take on it. So in the parent, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say in life, there are two wars in service that are always a battle once a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love and the others. A bad wolf which represents things like greed and hatred and fear and the grandchild stops anything but for a second and I look up at their grandparents and they say will which will in wines and the grandparents as the one you feed so I'd like to start off, by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do I care about what I said last time- and I apologise if it's the exact same thing. I bet I learn of either. So I love the parable because it speaks to the animated insight of my former sir

hustle and now in whole career as of meditation evangelist, which is that the mind is tradable, and we are not stuck with factory settings that we can work on the aspects of our self that we might struggle with, and we can further hone, our positive attributes outside of one thing that I've really noticed recently, perhaps this would be new. Is there? I think that I told my of a story probably subconsciously, identify no actually believe this, but subconsciously that Maybe I was one way we can automatic. I harboured along suspicion that I was you kind of irredeemably, sir fish on some level. Of course you know, there's a boundary between inside and outside when it comes to psychology or the mind, is really permian well, and so you tend to project your conclusions about yourself onto the world- and I think I felt that way about endeavour.

I was in the news with whom I disagreed that they were all one way, but I realized that its much more complicated than that and I think, leads to me, taking it easier on myself, so that when I grew up and do something that might fit into the old story about how I'm a bad boy. I can see it as an isolated incident or even part of it but not a reunification of a non negotiable truth and that's really helpful and also it it makes it easier to be less judgmental about other people and that being judgmental is up its opponents as you know, you're carrying around this view on some level. You know, isn't true, but you're sticking to it. I've heard that that's actually the definition of hysteria, sticking to a view that you know on some level isn't true and you know, we look at the world as people. We disagree without social media in the news or maybe even in our family, and harbour some belief that they are

are fundamentally one way, but I dont think it that's how it works, and I think that if we do the experiment of putting ourselves in her shoes and coming out of the same woman living in the same circumstances. We may very well do the same things that they're doing there's a great figure. You may have interviewed him, father Gregory boil you're, not in your head, so you know he is father. Boil was on my ipod cast one time and he said I don't believe in evil, I believe in horrible behavior, but not evil. Yeah I mean it gets to the point that Most of these things that we might call the bad wolf are typically coming out of some reaction to something that's happened and I think you're right that it's far more complex than that like it was a good and a bad side of his writing life is we are. We are far more complex, and one thing that I think I've seen in your work evolve over the years, and maybe I saw it most clearly seen your recent ted talk. Is

this sense of really recognising that these powers, inside of a similar, find your line here. Is it's really good? You said My demons were actually fear basin. Neurotic programmes, probably injected into me, my my culture, my parents, and they were trying to help me- is a really mean beautiful idea around Recognising the ways in which we are showing up in the world is the person we want to be. Is because of some a beach will reaction at or no again, I don't wanna go down the rabbit hole of his everybody that way and what about psychopath or any of that stuff, but for the vast majority of us right, our fear are- our greed they're coming from these deeper things within us that can be

used differently and related to differently. Yes, yes, just to clarify one thing, I don't think I was making the case that you know we're either part good or part bad, but I actually agree with that case. It's a more sophisticated case and the one I was making. I was more arguing that other people, I judge them, are an myself. I judged them to be wholly bad right and I, I think that's not true in terms of our demons are wolves and I think there are lots of bad wolves if you want to use the word bad. Let's use that word, even though it's probably overly simplified yeah. I think it's really helpful to view them warmly to give them a high five instead of trying to

play them, because the aggression just makes them stronger. I have an executive coach who I really like jerry Colonna and he's often told me that I can't bully my inner bully out of existence. Just doesn't work that way. You drive him underground and it comes out in other places, and so the only route that I found to dealing with the aspects of our personality, that are difficult is to view them warmly. As you know, ancient programmes that are trying to help us but are not do you know a highly functional and move on, because that's the fundamental right, called disarmament yeah and that's a phrase that you used in the ted talk. You know you said that this counter, intuitive extension of warmth to these things was not indulgent, but was indeed radical disarmament. I just love that phrase. It really jumped out to me when I heard- and I was like yeah- that's kind of what we're talking about and where I always find, the new wants for me is in

recognising and allowing that those things are there and befriending them and not feeding them. You know that to me is where the nuance gets to be, even if I want to think about something like thinking more italy, knowing that I about mind goes towards the negative right like I don't want to just the minute. The have show up like squelch him down, and so I want to allow them to be there and recognize him and explore them, and there's a certain point for me: words like ok, we need to move on here and change the channel work on cultivating different thoughts and so avoid found that dynamic to be one of the higher arts of sort of. mindfulness healing all this stuff is kind of knowing how much to devote to each of those sort of areas. The albania put your finger on the key issue here at night. you can make the philosophical switch of not hating yourself because you might have venal impulses, but then what are you actually do with said?

impulses and there are many strategies from modern psychology to ancient meditation, and you know I am not olympic level I can get carried away by my lesser impulses hourly. But I have been able to use of these tools and we can talk about them. Whatever order you would like to achieve you know, maybe ten percent of the time a different relation to my stuff, that I am not completely happy over all the power to voices in my head that are not so constructed and I don't know if you've seen this in your work cause. You talked to a lot of different people like I do and I'm over simplifying, but I've seen it in psychology and I've seen it in buddhism. These the sort of two different approaches and one is very much an acceptance approach be with what's there, friend it. Let it be there, there's that and then

is another approach which is more. I might call more of a cognitive behavioral approach right, but it should up in buddhism too, which is you recognise the thought and then you choose to put a different one in right. You might think of that is I'm choosing to pull out a weed or importing flower in, but there's an active changing, and I ve really noticed, as I've talked to people seen both Those things in life evolve version. What is more, which is the better approach, and now I know that's a foolish question right, but the question is, and the art is. When do I use which approach and for how long? Yes, yes just doing a little math and my head is we're talking, like, I think, they're, probably for me personally, like five different which that I interweave when I can run, amber to do it and some the more we know, meditative contemplative buddhist practices in some of them are more sure of modern psychological practices in the overlap between them is very significant because I think the buddha

It's some insights twenty six hundred years ago that modern psychological researchers and practitioners are just come to see the wisdom of yet so Let's explore what some of those are. You just came up with the number five, I'm sure. If I gave you ten minutes to think that number might become four seven or but let's go through what some of those categories are alright. So let me list them, and then we can go through them. First, I would say it's a straight up. Mindfulness. The second, I would say, is loving kindness, so both of those come out of buddhism. The third would be a modern psychological tool

has been perfected, at least to the extent of my knowledge by a school of psychology called internal family systems. I have ass. A fourth would be self compassion. These are all very related. That is self compassion is a mixture of modern technology and ancient buddhism pioneered by some researchers, doktor kristen ass, a doktor chris grammar, and then the fifth is. I don't know what he would call it, but doktor ethan cross at the university of Michigan wrote a book called chatter and the way I would describe what he is, teaching is a kind of internal counter programming where you gonna talk back to your thoughts and to I want to be clear that I am speaking here. Not you know from the mountain top of some expert, I'm I'm sure, I'm leaving out c, b t or dvd or lots of other modalities. These are just the five that have worked for me. I think you ve talked to many of these people. We ve I've talked to me the same people. I'm curious your expiring with high office when did their enter your life, and what does it look like for you? Well, I don't have extensive exe.

Some of it a richer schwartz, the godfather of I've s, internal family systems, came on my when we actually data session live just for the an initial here. The basics of I have s in my apologies to richard. If I'm man this, but you look at the term of art within I s is parts of your mind. You just can't do attacks. Do a taxonomy of the various parts of Europe you may have a prominent jealous mode of prominent anger mode, a jet his mode whenever these if you ever seen the movie inside out the pixar movie, where they have all these different characters representing human emotions. That's not far off from the iron s model and in the eyes, while you should give the characters names and I haven't done much- I have as therapy beyond the one experience when richard, which was

Interesting, very interesting. We've got a lot of response to that. Before I met richard, I had given names to the inner characters which I found to be quite dopey at first, I was like I'm not going to name my inner characters, but actually many of these practices at least have people like me, who are you know skeptics at first are going to appear either dopey or forced or annoying, but often think of this great quote, I heard from a meditation teacher who said it, but I love it. Somebody was complaining to some meditation teacher about some of the buddhist practices that we will. I think eventually get to being cheesy and the teacher said well. If he can't be cheesy, you can't be free and I think that's that's very true in my experience and you gotta get over yourself to do this cord stuff and at the cob I often uses exercise. If you landed here on earth from another planet, you went to a jim. You This is nuts people are running in place for thirty minutes and then systematically picking up and putting down heavy things what

going on? This is ridiculous, but we call that exercise, because we know that you repetitive motion repetitive size can lead to cardiovascular muscular benefits and the same is true brain and, by extension, your mind and that's what's on offer here. So in terms of I have asked yes, found the idea of labeling my inner characters, one of them I call r J or Robert Johnson, who is my grandfather. Complicated dude had many good parts to his own personality, but was quite an angry man and could be abusive and a bully, and I see that in my own inner repertoire quite clearly, unfortunately, and so just giving it a name and being able to undergo usefully objectified it instead of having this me as matic juggernaut. Feel within your head. It's just like. Oh yeah, that's just one aspect of my mind and I can work with it better. Once I've identified, it doesn't make sense

one hundred percent acceptance and commitment therapy is another one that often encourages you to give a name to these things, because it just to use the eating ross termite? It gives you a measure of self distancing and I I listened to your interview with richard in preparation for one that I did and I think I did something similar you are, we didn't know the work online. I remember, and it was the exact experience it I have- and I often have with that stuff, where I think you were like unrove. I'm really feeling our farmers, making this up like what's actually going on in here right. This stuff gets so complicated and you know it's like we know. You know he's asking a question apart, and you know that the part is supposed to have some kind of answer. So an answer comes here. Why is so The real answer I mean I did. This was a long time ago. Is probably in two thousand to twenty. Five years ago I did therapy work after my first marriage failed and

it was under the rubric of inner child work. That was what it was called, and I just couldn't stand that name. The whole idea of it made me a little crazy, but when I looked at what was going on inside of me- and I went like oh there do seem to be these times that the way my brain in my mind is reacting, is exactly like what a three year old would be reacting like I kind of white wine. I can get over myself here, and recognize that this makes sense. I may choose to call it something different and you know you're a sceptical. Guy. You talk about in your ted talk. You know in putting your hand on your heart initially for self compassion made, you cringe. I think we both come. A very similar place with all stuff, and yet a lot of that stuff really does seem to help, and I love that phrase. If you can't what was it if you can't get cheesy, you can't get free says something I got somethin like that. That's really good!

yeah you're inner child experience. I resonate with that. I affairs says richard did with me in and with you. He basically has you know the same part of you to the various insane parts of your baby. That's probably overly negative way to describe it, but the various parts of your purse how do you have a dialogue with them and doing that feels very range and you're, not even sure, like my articulating with that part? Really thanks, I don't know if it's very strange and so on saying you dear listener need to do all of these things. What I'm saying is, in my experience, is very helpful and just to repeat your phrase, Eric getting over yourself can really be a key

dealing with some of these things. So we ve talked about five brought approaches that have worked for you that have been really important and in your ted talk you. who say them massively. Empowering news is that love is not an unalterable factory setting. It is a skill you can train, it's actually a family of skills, and it was kind of curious, are these. skills that you mean the things we just listed here, the self compassion, the compassion for there's your loving kindness, the I s work of these sort of to you that family of skills, or did you have something else in mind when you use that line and the ted talk yes, and I think those five skills that I reference

five modalities, that a reference to earlier or all really good for inner work. But there are other skills that I would also put in the family of love skills and, as you know, I define love quite broadly, not just romantic or familiar love, but our capacity to give a shit which is wired to us visa evolution where social animals we needed to have this care capacity and its omni direction. Let it pass as not only to people in your life, but also to yourself and so those five skills as referencing get, those are all really kind of on the self love side of the spectrum. Having a better relationship with yourself, which of course, inexorably leads to better treatment of other people. But there are skills in the family that I think are really just about working You know with other people in a more effective way, communication skills. I would put right there at the top. I've spent a couple of years, maybe five years I think, one coming up in five years, working with a pair of buddhist inflected communicate,

his coaches, who have utterly changed the way I interact with other people. So yeah. That's that's just one example. or in one of those, so orange chauffeurs is incredible. Meditation teacher who's been on my part, Casta teaches on the ten percent happier meditation up and he has written excessively enemies were novel book about how to communicate better coaches that I work with are slightly different. Their names are dan, clergyman and moody to MR, if you're looking for a great guests rear show a high recommend them ok, they're, incredible and their system. In my opinion, bit simpler than organs I've gravitated in that direction. Orient This is his stuff on nonviolent communication, which is this incredible system for communication. dynamo data, it's a little bit more strict down and I've just found it very easy to get into its easy to understand very hard to do yes

there's a book out there, they wrote a number of em on one of my favorites is crucial conversations and they ve got other ones patterson and carrying differ people. That's always been the one that just like turned on a light in my head about, like how do you relate to other people and yet you know they were talking about this sort of idea of mere psychological safety guess decades before it became a buzzword like it is today. Oh, you recently mentioned on your podcast that you ve had a resurgent and very inconvenient set of panic attacks recently and I very recently have had something come up in my life that I can't really share. Much about other people are involved, but it has ask me to have a level of anxiety that it's been twenty years since I've odin anything like it, and it creeps up towards panic. You know- and so I thought- maybe we could talk a little bit about what works for you there. You know you ve got a great reason,

podcast with I dont have her name in front of me luanda. Yes, after luanda, Marquez suit. Do you have any sense of why the panic resurfaced for you after Having worked with it skillfully for a number of years, or is that not even important to you? That's definitely important to me: okay, disaster, rich area. I have so many things to say: I'm going to try to do what the aforementioned dan and would do to often urge me to do, which is to chunk rather than flood to not say too much at one time rather than flooding you with information to give it out in chunks. So I want to talk about. What's going on with you, I think an important definitional thing to get straight up front is there's in my mind at least a difference between panic and anxiety. I mean, I think, anxiety at it's peak can become panic, but I have found different ways to deal with both. So, for example, for me,

My recent bouts of panic, as almost all been brought on by the two triggers that have always air. For me, one is public speaking. My most famous panic tat was on television in two thousand, for what's it like to have a famous panic, it yeah. What is most people don't say that my most panic attack of a joke. I've been dining out on that story for a long time yet turned out to be great, have a famous panic attack at the beginning of a new career, but it's not great to have, a attacks and in the fall of twenty twenty two I started having panic attacks not only when I had to give public speaking, but also when I was in situ. where I felt trapped physically, so nell evaders and aeroplanes and I'd struggle the case lee with elevators, you know over the years, but never like this. I was having too

If I was in the city, I would just walk up fifteen flights instead of taking the elder. That's how terrified I was, and I was either get off of planes, because I was unwilling to fly or having to take a lot of that caught up in order to get myself I'm gonna blame. It was very. her sing, you know your. I am mister meadows. guru- would not really a group but meditation evangelist is the phrase I often use, and we know mental health quota code expert and I'm freaking out came gonna fuckin plain and I was very embarrassing and demoralising the good news is that I did a bunch of exposure therapy where I literally row in elevators with a shrink. You know I did it over the course of months, and consistently. You know went back on planes and sometimes I detect mad, but then I would take her down so that I will take very small doses and then none I just went at it. I want to say aggressively, but that's not the right turn, but I would say persistently and doggedly. I really just did not

Let my life get small, because panic was stopping me from doing that and it really worked, they really worked on mon planes and in elevators now, and sometimes I feel a little nervous, but it's really helpful. I'm going to stop talking in a second, but I just want to say that me that high high high anxiety of panic is slightly different from daily anxiety, even when it rises to a level where it's kind of debilitating and I use different tools reach. So what Who is the difference between something that would be like high anxiety and panic, though so I kind of like a high zairian panic has the same thing as opposed to be no guard variety anxiety, okay, background static of fear reading, so I mean I'm not really an expert, I mean I'm an expert in my own experience, but this is my way of thinking about it. You know the daily background of fear that I think I certainly live with assembly with anxiety can go up or

and depending on the circumstances are whether I slept or whatever anna can get pretty high and and really be intrusive, but panic hi anxiety is when fighter flight really kicks in hand. Your heart raises lungs, seize up you're completely debilitating. You feel like you're having a heart attack, so to me, that's the bright lights and because we know that what we might call- garden variety anxiety which makes it sound like a lady's gardening club, which is not what it feels like another tend to be two elements to it. In my mind, right, there's all the thought patterns and then there's the degree of fear in the body and so you're saying that, from your perspective, panic is one that fear. Is it like a tan whereas, if it's only at an eight that's anxiety to you, even though you ma

noticed your heart is racing. You might notice that you're feeling a little bit short a breath. You might notice like ok, I can't quite get my bearings here. Yes, what you just did there is called reflective listening were you. This is a thing I learned from dynamo data, which is you repeated back to me in a more succinct fashion. What I was trying to say in your own words and yet exactly right. Well, you and I both sorted, do it for a living so I should be good at it. After almost a decade, you know not. I pick the wrong for you and so you ve got acute events, you gonna, give up public talk, you ve gotta, get an elevator, those cause, panic the rest of the anxiety you know. Does it get up into that? Seventy eight level for you or that mostly floating and again, I'm talking less about the thoughts and more about the physical sensations yeah.

To me and again I cannot stress strongly enough a medical emission and I'm not an expert in this, but the stuff. That's giving me go garden, variety, anxiety and yes, I agree with you. There are the thoughts and then there are the physical manifestations. Rarely gets close to panic. I can get very angry or very distracted. I'm not able to focus on so because I'm worried, but the source of the daily anxieties quite different at least consciously yet and accept consciously may be the same thing, but what's giving the anxiety on a day to day basis is not claustrophobia? Yet what gives me panic on the regulars claustrophobia phobia republic speak and you said you had some theories as to why it was resurfacing- viewer comfortable share at night my chariot at all at one very practical explanations that we were in a pandemic, so I wasn't getting on aeroplanes as much. and I had moved out of the city where I live near a city to the suburbs. In my family

getting on elevators as much. So after a couple of years of not being exposed when I started getting back- on the plains, especially with masks on it was harder for me to do, and it was just one sperience I had where I was getting on a flight to allay for a big talk and I was getting over covert. I was clear to travel, but I had, have a kn ninety five on and ours and on the plane. I hadn't been on a plane in a long time. Anna had the mask on and I didn't feel good and I started to freak out when I got off the plane and that just set me so far back, and then it just started showing up everywhere in that's. In my experience, the way panic works once it creeps in it. Just me past the sizes until ones of areas of your life and if you're not really on top of it, you can start pulling back from everything. You know it's not doing things that might give you panic, and then your life get super small right, and so luckily I have a lot of experience like you,

who interviewing mental health experts. I just started calling my shrank. I called doktor marquez and got some advice from her and I just started getting treated right away, but it took months yet you know I find what you just shared and the fact that you are sharing it to be courageous in kind like you said that you are positioned in a certain way in the world, You know I know I do this with myself when I'm struggling, I'm like you've interviewed all the leading people in the world about this stuff. You teach programs on this stuff like what is the matter with you in the his idea of the second arrow. In the shame that comes with it can be so pernicious. Yes, can. Second, arrow is a great story, the other great parable. I think, maybe it's time Luckily not a parable, but it's a great story from the buddhist canon of guys walk through the woods, gets it by an arrow hurts obviously and then starts down himself a whole story about likewise, I always the guy gets it by the arrow and now

knockabout make dinner tonight and all that stuff and that's the second arrow that we reject voluntarily, and I think we're doing this to ourselves all the time and I think what has been helpful for me as a blue Julie, an expert in mental health, meditation and buddhism, who you know, continues to make lots of mistakes and have lots of setbacks in his life is to recognise that this was never promised to being linear personal development, personal growth, the spiritual path, not afraid. As I love it's not supposed to be like a hockey stick that just goes up in an uninterrupted way like the life is going to happen to you I think it's just been important for me to remind myself of that and it's another example of self love, actual yeah. That is the way we tend to think about growth, as in it goes in one direction and when it does, and it can be very, very discouraging, and now I often think of it almost like. I don't know who I heard say this, but like a spiral staircase in a like, if you go on a spiral staircase, you may come by that very scary picture, but idea

when you get to it next time, your slightly better, before or at least have more tools in how to work with it than before, but it doesn't mean that the picture doesn't scare the shit outta you, yes, a friend of mine, told me a story about something at his shrink said to him. My friend was, complaining to his shrank about how he yet again made the same mistake that he had made a million times. I can't believe I did this. We know thing acts again and the shrink said. Was it as bad as the last time? That's is a great way to look at it. You know, and that is a great way to remove the second error

I think it so simple to do what you are doing or I'm attempting to do, which is to share that doesnt matter. Where you get in life, be life still can kick your ass and I've talked to of people, and I think you have to wear I've recognise that after why was like oh there credibly, wise people. They will. I too share with the world and they still have them but now you know some people, I don't know like the dalai lama, so you might say why not the dalai lama there's some people that maybe get to a different level, but

service in western society. There is some degree of life, still comes at you, and sometimes it takes a wilder recalibrate. Yes, yes, one of the best buddhist book titles is by a teacher named jack, cornfield, incredible meditation teacher and he wrote a book called after the ecstasy The laundry yeah- and you know you- can have these incredible transformative experiences in meditation with psychedelic sing therapy in nature. Then you gotta do the laundry and sometimes laundry sucks, so every podcast seriously. You guys started doing. I love the idea of, and the question really is: can you get fit sanely right, in it. You know many of us have a relationship with exercise that has been driven by very often poor body image or insecurity or trying to look a certain way or going

bored and I'm curious, What did you learn from doing that serious about getting fit in the same way? I know I'm asking you condense. What were many episodes into a few key thoughts, but what were some of the big takeaways for you for that? First of all, thank you for the kind words about the series and also that it was six episodes. Since there is so much stuff in there, but the thing that leads to mind. As you asked me, a question like what was the take away, one, after interview and all of these experts in getting healthier in various ways, one of the people we interview was a teacher named cora lie, l a I does her last name, she's, a buddhist teacher and also a social worker and used run marathons barefoot. She was a hard core exercise her and then got limes disease and has really not been able to exercise much and has really wrestled with that, and she talk a lot about why we exercise like what

is driving you to do this, and that really got me thinking why am I spending so much time in the Jim? What is my motivation? Is it to keep up with people I'm seeing on instagram yeah? I think in part and that's fine. We live in this culture, we're gonna, be him impacted by the culture. I'm not saying that it's bad to have that motivation. What I'm saying is is that the fuel you want can we switch to something else and what impact might that have so, for example, can I really caught? sleep boost to my. engine on my motivation being staying here. For my now eight year old son as he gets older, and what were the ramifications of that be so yeah maybe spend less time working on my biceps, because I like the way my arms look in t shirt, and more time working on. I don't know

core, because that will help me get up downward in my own shoes when I'm one hundred. If I live that long, and so I think it can change your goals and also it can really, in my experience, lead to stickier habits. You know if I've tried to get into the habit and to get this is going to be one of those things is going to sound cheesy but have you know when I get on the exercise bike or I am this morning I took a run just taking the second and saying, like I'm doing this, to make myself happier and stronger so that I can make other people happier and stronger and so that I can be around for my son and my wife, I dunno I have more grit in my exercise regime and my prayer these have changed, because my motivation is clear yeah. I agree. I also think that, for whatever reason the few or the ego fuel doesn't work for me in the way that it did when I was twenty five is just not strong enough necessarily to get me to do a consistent, adding them biggest change for me. Was one

I realize like like you said this makes me healthier and stronger and for me it was. lee emotional and mentally. When I realized like emotionally and mentally. This is the practice that is better for me than any other others for had to set meditation aside. If I could keep one of the two I would take, let me keep exercise. Let me keep back size strictly from a mental health, emotional health perspective, and that's really good because it shrinks the time horizon between like the action in the reward you know even wanting to be healthy for your son there's a way in which you can be like wow, but yeah I mean I got twenty more good years before. I have to really start to worry about that, whereas I'm like, if I want to feel better this afternoon, so I can, you know, have more energy like the benefit is so close is

and the bigger that span gets between the action in the benefit, the harder it is to sort of really work with ourselves more facing resistance. I agree, and, if you're doing a class- and you know it- you say you're doing spin quite a bit and sometimes the teachers haven't you sprinter bunch and it can be nice to picture my son or my wife in those moments yeah. So I its yes and a shorter time horizon is always a powerful motivator and if I'm doing it, for my own abs are going to be less likely to push that hard yeah. I interviewed a woman years ago and she had done some research on this, and I've asked her sense. Like has this really been replicated or not, and I'm kind of curious what you think about it? has. It was counter intuitive to me, and I dont know that I think it's true and she said that when you start to layer, multiple motivations on you weaken what can be a primary motivation and to me I've always been

under the school of thought of, like you know, why have a bunch from because different ones may pull me through on a different day then when I talk to her, she was like. I don't know how well that's really been replicated. I think it gets to the intrinsic extrinsic motivation, debate and people say well. If you reward somebody for doings, thing with just money: they have less intrinsic reward to do it, and I have just found- the most things in my life seemed to be a blend of those things anyway, and leaning into that has been helpful for me, but I'm kind of curious what he said. Well, I don't really know What's coming to mind, is something that my meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein has often said to me and others, which is that if you look carefully at your motivations and as such as your motivation, Exercise can be your motivation for saying a certain thing at any given moment or for having a career goal or whatever you up We see a range from the high minded to the crass. That just feels like up

part of human nature that we have many motivations scene and unseen, and a good life goal is to try to emphasise the wholesome and the emphasis and on I've heard you talk about this and I've thought about it. A lot over the years, particularly as I went from doing this is something that I just did, because I wanted to do it to something that paid the bills. You know that the motivation start to get confused and instead of making that a problem right, I just gonna, go. Of course, I'm motivated by making money cause every boy. He is motivated by making money to some degree, and now it's how I make a living and, of course, and motivated by being seen an approved of, but can I try, like you said to focus more on my energy intention on the more wholesome motivations, I try and let that be. What drives me more without me. The problem with these other things. Are there because, like what dear teacher Joseph said,

just feels, fundamentally truth, and yet you know I've had that conversation when myself, that you just described of about here supposedly Helping people- but you know my just lining my own pocket, sir just trying to get cloud or influence or fame or whatever, and I have on down the toilet on them many times I had a really useful conversation about with a guy who I mentioned earlier, jerry Colonna has it also might be a good guest for this show he's quite a famous executive coach and has also written a bunch of books about leadership and from a really sort of psychological, slash buddhist perspective, and I found his stuff to be very helpful, both one on one end and his public pronouncements I was talking to jerry once about me, no, my motivations and raising the question of what, her. I'm maybe broken in some way, and he is like look. You know we all.

have the desire for money and not to be liked by our fellow mammals and that's natural, and can you just look at it as like an exchange of, and he used the term love which is a complex word, cares lot of cultural baggage bit back to my sort of capacious, broad understanding of it. Can you look at this as an exchange of love, and I think this applies to europe? Yes, you get paid for doing this by cast and you might get more twitter file, wars or somebody stops you in an airport in says they love your show, and all of that makes you feel good and makes you safe and gives you the capacity to do more good work to help more people and that's a beneficial cycle yup. I agree. I definitely go that way. You did a recent thing for the pi. Ass, meditative story with that team, and you didn't episode where you share taking a trip with your son and

really beautiful episode. We had rojas on recently and he did a meditation based on the two wolf parable, but I loved your story in that time. in about how spent time, one on one with him kind of brought you together on a curious you. This was sort of your first trip, with your son, and I dont know when you recorded that episode a solid, but I'm curious has that trend of spending time with your son one on one in that way continue and is it continued to sort of be a way of giving you more quality time with him in a way that still feels really good yeah thousand percent? So I did this story if the meditative story about how what my son was a four, I think I took him on the road with me to go, see my parents, we were from new york to Boston. My parents were living in boston at the time. It was pre pandemic, he's eight now, okay, so awhile ago there was a while ago, but there are some cool updates, and I mean I obviously I over this is obvious. I love my son, I loved him then, and I was

at the time in my life, where I was working all the time. You know I was working nights on nightline and weekends on good morning, america and I was traveling to give speeches. I was writing books. I was travelling to do investigative, television stories, I was voting a podcast. I started a meditation apple. Insane and as a consequence, I didn't get that much time with my son and he really didn't have time for me when I was a round. He was just like all about his mother in ages. Brought me back into the place of feeling like I was a monster, and so I took him on this trip and we had a great time and you can listen to the episode if you want, but the update is that now Oh he travels with me all the time. So I I do a lot of corporate speaking and it will fly around the country to talk to different professional groups or corporations and I have this eight year old. Who is my right hand, man and I pull him out of school and we go and we so we just did a ten day trip where I had threesome

just one in vegas won an oral as one in jackson hall and he's my little guy and its awesome. We are really close now and part of that because of the travel part of his cause, I'm not work as much a part of it is because he's gotten older and I'm a little bit more interesting to him yup. But it's phenomenal has completely changed our relationship. And what did he say to me in the middle of the recent trip he said daddy? I love you, but I'm sick of you. He's got eyes sassy mouth on him. Eight is such a great age. You know, I think, they're all great ages, but five to ten years. I, like the glory years to me- I just like having to get Jeff one and he is grown and he is currently a wild and fire fighter. So he's been in in an effort for much of the summer, but I loved that five, it an when I was listening you that story. It took me back his mother and I split when he was like two and a half and he was very attached to his mother, which you know the two and a half year old

Do you know she was with with him all the time I was working, a similar, similar dynamic and all the sudden had this two and a half year old, all by myself for stretches of time, and it was so called in some ways, but I'm so glad also that it gave me a relationship with him. There was just different than it would have been I remain sort of the secondary merit, you know or the parrot. That was an error. As much and so suddenly I was getting these big blocks a time with them. So when I heard that story- and it took me back to ignore this- None of that one on one time, not that time like you and your wife and son, I'm sure, isn't wonderful. Also, but there is a difference there, that's all I dont know if you asked this question a lot, but I can't resist it becomes Sure you get asked in a lot because it's the obvious question, which is you know you or a decade, or so off of writing ten percent happier it's a great book title right. We wouldn't change the book title because it's so good, we

you change the degree to which you think these things have made. You happier better is temple. really the right number or would you revise that upwards to some bigger number. I have never I'm good at math, and I came up with this title and, as a consequence, get math questions a lot. So the way I think about it- and I actually think this is a very important question- love getting. It is I'm going to make a math assertion here, just with the caveat that I'm not good at math, but the I think about it. Like an investment and the ten percent compounds annually, and so I'm way more than ten percent after ten years. In writing. That book. I think it's because you just have to keep at it these skills of mindfulness compassion, calm concentration the various skills that can be taught through meditation. You just keep getting better and ended. There's not much of a physical limitations like there's a ceiling on how good I can get a basketball even go pretty far and

the interior realm, and I'm not saying that I've done that far. But I, like the passive I love that answer in it speaks very much to what I think is a truth which If you were to compare how much happier you are in the region at the time you might go. Well, I'm yeah I'm getting a little bit better. You know, but the accumulation of that you I've studied a lot in the zen tradition, particularly in ruins. Come on then, and there's a lot of focus on sartori right. These moments of just like Pham thundercloud enlightened met right. fortunate up to have some really profound experiences in that way. But I often think about this said this on the show, a bunch of times that I think, if you were to take Lee, many three year old version of me who was a homeless heroin act and you are drop him into this brain today, he would think he was suddenly enlightened, because the guy gap between where I am now and where I was then, is so vast. The guy

between, where I am now and where I was last year might not in the same way as harder to see its in the nature of progress and your points, not always linear, but I do think that answer of compound in really does make sense to me that over time, I'd radically transformed, as a person You too many of the things that we have talked about on the show the psychological principles, the buddhist principles in all these different things have made such a big france over time. So I love that answer. The yeah not expect to earn more than ten percent in a year and to take your market analogy further. You know if you talk with the fine and your plainer they'll say well. You know we think we can get you like. Seven percent over the long term, no some years. You're gonna get fourteen percent in some years. You're gonna get one percent and that over time,

it's gonna sort of average out and that feels like are apt way of thinking about the growth in healing journey yeah about love your story, that's amazing, incredible that you ve been able to make that progress, and I think that take away for people listening is that you shouldn't get to hung up on the day to day improvements in your meditation practice. It shouldn't be thrusting more arrows into your thigh, because you lost your temper yesterday and you ve been better training for a month and you can't let that happen. That's just the way it is the best way to look at it over time is from a pretty broad lens. This is a long, long path, Joseph gold scene. We talk about before the great meditation teacher, sometimes jokes about how when he was a kid, he doesn't gardening and he kept pulling the carrots out of the ground to see how they were growing and it's not a great way to garden, and it's not a great way to meditate door to engage in any kind of personal growth if you're just constantly and obsessively checking your progress.

Well. I think that is a great place to wrap up down its lovely to talk with you again and see you again, and I appreciate you come on. It's a pleasure thanks for have mount. Graham station. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please, that are making a monthly donation to support the one you feed, podcast Join our membership community. With this monthly pledge you get lots of exclusive members, only benefits it's ours I'm saying. Thank you for your support. Now we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support and we take a single dollar for granted to learn more may

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