I wanted to tell you about a show: a pact s and a pot castor that I like it's called the jordan harbinger show and Jordan himself is a great guy he's been on this path. Ass, I've been is we had dinner a few weeks ago? I have found him to be very enjoyable in person and also incredibly generous with his time and advice. show is really good. Most importantly to you, you cover the whole range of topics, with some really impressive guests- and I think there are specifically some episodes that would be good for people who, like this show as covered the emotions behind success, mastery and power with Robert green he's interviewed them. My hearty in an episode about how to be your future self now. But he also covers lots of other stuff, the professional art. jerk somehow made millions of dollars while being chased by the feds the mafia, an episode all about birth control and how it can alter the partners we take and how going

on or off the pill can change elements of your personality like I said he covers a whole, fascinating range of subjects and he is a very good interviewer and a lawyer any brings those legal skills to bear. I really enjoy jordan and the show I think you will as well there's so much there check out jordan, harbinger dot com, slash start for some episode, recommendations for search for the jordan harboured. Your show that each r b as in boy, I am as Nancy g- are on apple podcast, spotify or wherever you listen, hello, everybody down here. We're drop something special down the feed today. I recently had a great conversation with my new friend kelly corrigan over on her podcast, which is called kelly. Corrigan wonders with about being a lifelong learner, the value of intellectual humility and the tools that

I personally use in my daily life, including visual language, which I will explain in the course of this conversation and which has greatly improved my communication with other human beings, just a little information about kelly before we dive into this conversation here, Kelly is the author of for new york times best sellers about family life and she's the host of a long form interview series on pbs called. Tell me more. I really hope you enjoy this bonus content and if you do go check out kelly's other stuff over on her podcast, which again is called kelly, corrigan wonders and you can find it wherever you listen to your podcasts. the brain and the mind our tradable and you're, not stuck with a bunch of factory settings that around alterable. You can work on all of your stuff. Welcome. kelly corrigan wonders I'm kelly corrigan, and today we are continuing in three parts series called after much steady conversations of peace,

Who spend their lives learning today. I am with Dan Harris a journalist and former We see news anchor and the force of nature behind ten percent happier. Podcast a set of insights that I myself am leaning on every day, danny As is so interesting to me personally, because he comes to me haitian, through panic, attacks, which I can relate to we're lucky to share candid conversation went down harris about the push simple of everyday life will be right back with kelly corrigan wonders

The welcome back kelly corrigan wonders I'm Kelly corrigan. I was at the aspen ideas festival this past summer and I had a chance. While I was there to talk with journalist, podcaster and devoted meditator dan harris dan is a former abc news anchor. He has reported stories from all over the globe: afghanistan, iraq, Haiti, Cambodia, the amazon

and during that storied career, he wasn't tracking that that kind of work and that kind of coverage was taking a deep toll on him mentally and emotionally until he had a major panic attack on air in june, two thousand for, while hosting good morning america, he knew in that instance. It was time for him to make a change. Despite his initial scepticism, Dan tried meditation and it ended up being the thing that would transform his life. Dan is open a total straight shooter and very funny, as well as being pretty devoted to sharing what he's learned with others for the greater good, So I don't that many podcast, but the ones I listen to me. Listen to alight, and yours is one of them so I know you well you Actually you do if you lie down. Oh you do know me well and honour to hear that. Thank you,

yeah. I know your insides I wanted to make sure our listeners have a sense of you before. I take you into this set of questions that I'm asking a couple different people, because you are part of a series that we're calling after much study conversations with people who spend most of their lives learning. So it's you and krista tippett and Rainn wilson, but before we dig in and I'm sort of drawn to your way of talking about the slings and arrows of daily life, because I'm a little bit of a skeptic myself, I was raised by a woman who barely believes in like doctors and car mechanics and also I'm a huge believer in the power of the stories we tell ourselves. So what is a story that you've told yourself that you have edited or abandoned altogether to the betterment

to the good to my good or the good of the world either. Well, I'm still working to edit and abandon this, but I have made some progress, but this kind of idea that I'm a monster. You know that I am irretrievably selfish and self centered. Yet I think that I am constitution of pretty pretty You know- and I don't think it's my fault necessarily a bit because of lots of causes and conditions, and you know you don't become a news anchor if you're not into getting attention and getting paid. So I think that's that's in me and I didn't notice that for a long time and that impact in my actions in lots of ways made me defensive, because I a kind of harvard it somewhere in my viscera. This

beer that I was incapable of giving a shit about anybody other than myself, and so then, if, if somebody made even an oblique reference to my selfishness or whatever, I would blow up, because it was forcing me to reckon with this thing- want to see and silver time. I've been able to see that like nobody's all one thing or another and, more importantly, the brain and, by extension, the mind are trainable and you're, not stuck with a bunch of you know, factory settings that are unalterable. You can work on all of your stuff and I found that doing that. Work is actually benefited me and everybody else. It's interesting to think

add the impact that you thinking that you are self centered might have been having on the way you are perceiving others, because I've always felt like, if say, a person, cheats on their girlfriend a boyfriend or their spouse. Then their assumption is, everybody else is doing it too, and if you cheat on your taxes year assumption, is you just can't away off? Like oh come on everybody? I know. Does this and if your kind of a dick and you put yourself first and a lot of situations, then you are pretty saving that, like that's the only way to live with it, is to perceive that that's pretty much the way everyone operates to and the beginning of the unravel is when you think god, maybe it's not a dog eat dog world, maybe not everybody playing at this way, and I am being less than I could be. I am being like. I have a cast agent in this. Does a sub read it on?

read it that I really love, which is called. Am I the asshole and people post these moral dilemmas and ask him I d ass old. I just think that such a radical act to ask you know- maybe I'm u, because we're so hard wired to think we're right that such a threat to think were wrong about my meditation teachers guide named joseph goals theme. Is it been a huge influence for me? Is this little thing he likes to get people to say to themselves in moments of conflict, which is don't side with yourself, and it's just a it's just a great way to get you think, but why do other people think the way they're thinking and are they maybe right? And even if they're not right can leaping into their shoes and pathetically take some of the eat out of this situation, because you understand that if you came out of the same room and ensure the same causes and conditions that lead to when fuel their lives, maybe you believe the eggs

same thing in and that's just a really useful way to look at the world. One other thing to say that I think helps the unravelling that you are talking about is a guide him. You probably interviewed him father Gregory boil who, I did for pbs. It was wonderful on site, any stelae. Amazing guy works with, as you said, and you still a with the gang members and current and former, and he said this thing to me, which is like I don't believe in evil people. I believe in bad, savior, and so I I. I really believe that too I don't with rare exceptions. I don't think there's an I'm, not even sure I believe, in the exceptions, don't think, there's purely evil people. I think there are causes and conditions. I I keep harping on that. It might be worth talking about that. That can lead to bad behavior. That needs to be punished, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're thoroughgoing lie, evil and I'm not yeah right right right. So this idea of causes and conditions is super important to me too,

It did tens of work for children, Tacitus oakland, where the causes in conditions of these kids, health are so far beyond their control and there so embedded in their environment that it's almost like a no win situation and I have been so grateful overtime for the codification. That is aces adverse childhood experiences, because I think that it's a super easy to understand like what what what with those be and rated on a scale of one to ten. So it's like as their violence in your neighborhood is their violence, your home. Is their mould in your home. Might you have asthma as their air you living in a place where new? It is easy to combine, are hard to come by. Do you have a bed and when you codified it, it sounds very real. It doesn't sound like summons opinion, it sounds like a scale. Doktor shoes and hospital. So it's like legit and I think it's like it totally refrains things and forces all of us to think.

that causes in conditions that effective persons, behaviour and also their potential outcomes of thick. If so, this three times now, but a hundred percent I know this is it's a I get it from buddhism when they talk about this a lot and often they use the word karma, which is, I think, a largely misunderstood term. Often I think in the west. We invoke the idea of karma we're talking about like oh, if I cheat on my taxes. I will be a gila monster in my next life and I don't think it's that mechanistic. And I don't have a mystical view of this at all. It's real or magical view at all, just cause and effect right. So this happen, therefore that happen- and we, if you could think about, is the big bang we ve been in this massive swore.

of causes and conditions that have landed us in this very moment? And so I guess actually, if you look at the world through that, lends it is kind of magical, but but you don't have to believe in anything metaphysical and it can be just having this frame on the world can be. Really useful, it can be a relief because you don't have to carry around this story of these people. I disagree on the news or my brother in law or whatever their evil, but you can just think yeah. Maybe I have I was in their shoes. I'd be doing the exact same thing you know and by the way you can Is it as a way to take it easy on yourself southern? Let yourself what but he off the hook justice. that there are reasons for my what's happening right now and It's, not necessarily your fault that you're that you occasionally have thoughts that are bigoted or that you have desires that are inappropriate to speak allowed. But it is your responsibility not to be owned by the night

We did a series on intellectual humility and it's coming to. And right now, because it is I changed my pasture and thinking same with Tammy, my producer, like we ve, said to each other like this, is the most affecting set of conversations we ve had in terms of like I carry with me all the time and all it does is force you to say, there's always things I do not know or understand about every internet and every human being, and then it inspires this curiosity loop to say I wonder I wonder what the causes and conditions are for that guy who came into this room at this moment. I wonder if his wife just left him this morning. I wonder if his kid just dropped out of school. I wonder if his mom just died, that you know like. If you walk around thinking, there's so much, I don't know. I know it like. I actually know like a tenth or less of what a person would need to know to have like a really full and a full bodied.

Judge mantle response to this situation. You can really protect yourself from getting into that hot space where you're like an other thing, yes, and if you're paying attention, there's a subtle pain to that kind of dogmatism, because somewhere in the corner of your mind, you know that you don't really know, even though you're putting up the show and it's a relief not to carry it around I'll. Give you a little hack here cause I'm all about like practices- and I picked this up from this married couple- that they are communications, coaches and they've. Been teaching me for the last couple of years have to remove my foot from my mouth on the regular and their names are dan clergyman and would deepen this girl. They have a great book of these should go look up anyway. One of their many many tools is called provisional language and it just little thing that you could teach herself to do which is to never say anything with too much confidence to recognise that in a world where impermanence is a non negotiable law, things are

causes and conditions are swarming on all the time. Things are just changing all the time that you really can't say too much with too much confidence and you can't deliver either a diagnosis or prognosis with too much confidence. So therefore, to just pepper your language with maybe perhaps- and it looks like just to have that kind of humility- You can take a good, a nice idea, this practice and actually get it into your neurons, because it's giving its giving you something to do about it, It's not like. Oh, I think it's electoral humility is nice. It's a thing that you're doing on the regular. That actually makes you intellectually humble one final thing to say is I love that ST augustine, the guy who came up with the least intellectually humble idea ever, which is an original sin which I think has done a calculable damage. He was asked once ST augustine was some life advice from some younger person and

You said the word humility three times in a row. You can believe in humility as a life goal, but not actually be home. and that's why we only practices the two pounded in turn or, of course, of course, so Then everything you said that I want to ask about was when you squelch something you give it power. Ignorance is not bless your mother kind of like goes right back to the whole. monster dialogue. You know that that I've carried around- and I think, is not uncommon, but we all have some story about ourselves and if we it's unexamined door, it's like partially examined and were fighting it. It's just. it's getting stronger and stronger its controlling you from the unseen crevices of your mind, instead of just like, let's put it on the table and talk about neither were the shrank court to explore it gingerly in meditation. Whatever your talk to talk about it with your good friends, so I think ignorance,

annapolis in that way, because we think yeah, let's compartmentalize, x or Y difficult story x or Y trauma and without dealing with it. But the you know, Yuki, you can't fool your mind. You know you might be able to fool parts of your conscious mind your executive function, but you can't fool the whole thing. Are you so glad that you're not an anchor anymore like this work is so am I mean it's me search, but it's also like so valuable to the world and theirs they were a thousand on economic dora wanting your job anyway, and now you can do this thing, that's absolutely essential. Do you feel that, yes, most lay. But nothing is you know the little complicated, so I retired almost two years ago and mostly see we're happy about it, but you know I can moments of like well, I was doing the ten percent happier stuff anyway, while I was

the news, so I could be doing both and that extra income and boy was kind of nice. There you know be an acre man and ahead, they're all identity around that and people's stopping me on the street. To say they knew me and all that and on a more wholesome note, like I, I loved being a journalist and I loved my colleagues, sir. There are things that I miss and there's more that I don't miss. You know I I my whole life. We get turned upside down any time. Some asshole walked into a supermarket with an AK. Forty seven like I'd have to go, and I don't want to live my life that I knew I was ok when I was younger, but I'm north of fifty now- and I just don't want to do that anymore, and it was just getting really hard on me, physically and psychologically speaking of physical pain like getting up at three forty five.

couple days a week, the anchor good morning, america on the weekends, was really hard. It was like living with permanent jet lag, and so I there are a lot of things that I don't miss and I love having the extra bandwidth to be with my family. This is the first time I think in my whole adult life that I don't have to work on weekends, wow and said: that's just incredible. I have an eight year old son. I've spent a lot more time with him and to get to the point that you were trying to make, I I you know I do have more time and energy to do the type of work that you and I are talking about right now, which is so incredible and yes, I'm super grateful coming up next day and tax about how he evolve from someone who viewed meditation is happiness. Consents to someone who embraced him and unlocked a whole new side of himself we'll be right back with Kelly corrigan wonders

Welcome back kelly corrigan wonders I'm telling corrigan entered. I am talking with journalist, author pad castor dan Harris, a guy who is at least ten percent happier than he once was sitting. The set of questions that I have been asking in the series and he can gimme some speed round type ants there's some longer answers? I get ivory and, like you, I believe that in the same category, crystal tepid and rain, Wilson, like donald duck being carved into mount rushmore

but I'll, take it yeah. Actually, you made it the fact that you're in this series made Christie really nervous that he's going to have such zippy answers as she texted me last night. Actually, maybe that's why he did what's a situation recently where you felt totally attuned with your very best self, where he felt more really beautiful, a very good friend of mine who does I have a lot of money lost her daughter suddenly and the daughter was grown up to my friends low, but older and just show up for her and lots of ways help in or get aggrieve counselor. That type of stuff was actually never thought. I'm a little embarrassed that I'm talkin about this, because I am a burn. He preschool them teaching us that the best kind of philanthropy is totally confidential. Some little bears that this is what's coming to my, but I do it felt really right. There was,

oh existential axed in that moment being useful in that way, is it you can feel it physiologically. I would say the same thing like literally any time, I'm in a q and a situation with people where I can tell you know they have questions about things where I can be useful, I feel Morally beautiful I don't know, but definitely on the spectrum yeah like and in tune. Yes, I had cancer in my therapies and I again given a thousand speeches since then, and I always say to people If you won't accept help your eliminating this great opportunity for other people to feel this sense of atonement that you just described. So I'm glad you brought it up, because It's just another reminder that if you're, you know in a hard place when you lead people do a little something for you: you're giving

am a better day, and so, when you engage in these. really essential moments in another person's life. You're realizing your humanity and mean that say here in new york and the highest state you're, making yourself useful, which is always my thing, makes a useful doing something hard with good people. Yes, rom. Does the great meditation guru wrote a book called? How can I help now thought about slogan? Yeah, that's nice! what something big you ve been wrong about. This is a long. Where shall we, Yeah I'm just trying to you know I was.

Super reluctant to get into meditation, because I thought it was hippy nonsense and I was very wrong about that. Not only is that disproved by the significant body of research that pretty strongly suggest it's very healthy, but my dismissive nests extends well beyond that, and now I have this tendency to be reflexively judgment though that is so often steered me wrong and even within meditation. You know for my early years. In practice I was very like a well I'm gonna. Do these science act, non, cheesy, secular practices, but this other stuff is bullshit, and I really dismissed this whole set of practices is so. I was into mindfulness meditation, which allows you to come to see clearly what tat, in your heads so as to help you you know not beyond by it as we keep talking about

but there's a whole other sort of set of practices within buddhism that are designed to make you warmer more loving, and I was not into that at all. I have felt like they were valentine's day with a gun to your head type of thing, and that was stupid. You know, like just being dismissive, makes you stupid and again there's a there's, a bunch of data to suggest that these practices often referred to to as loving kindness these practices. have mazes psychological and physiological benefits and doing them in my own life has helped immensely with really with the whole story about I'm a monster you know and and how that leads to be treating myself and therefore others, and the big unlock for me has really in having a warmer attitude toward myself and other people, and that doesn't mean all europe political. All of a sudden would that the review islam-

folks, say praise Allah, but tie your camel to the post like eat you you do you do after you know, have boundaries and think clearly about things But you know, my being a little easier with myself has had a huge impact in my life. What's a piece of feedback eve received that really stung well, you're trying to somebody who's had a couple of three sixty reviews. Do you know what three sixty reviews are? Okay, so just for the uninitiated there, the often used in corporate settings, were you do an anonymous survey of your boss, his peers and direct reports, to get a sense of like what your strengths and weaknesses? Are? I've done a couple, but I've also included people from my personal life. Like my wife and my brother friends and meditation teachers, I often joke it's like I've done. The colonists could be

vision of three sixty. So I've had a lot of feedback, and I also like I'm a public figure with a twitter feed. So I can do no people call me names all the time, just the picking something somewhat at random here, but in my first three sixty which happened in two thousand eighteen, it was pointed out that I had a penchant for being rude to junior staffers, which it's not at all the way I saw myself and at first I was like well, this isn't true and then the way this three sixty was done. You would like list a charge against you and then put pages and pages of blank. What's so like it was, I couldn't argue with, is obviously true and I was doing this and I think I I came up in a very harsh, hierarchical, militaristic run.

I boomers news organization, a b c news which is now of every kind place, but when I came up and in the sort of Peter jennings, the Barbara Walters ted koppel era was really not nice and I was treated like shit and I think I just treated other people like shit, and that was really really really embarrass. and I ve got a lot of work to turn around on that, and I mention den and would deter the communications coaches. They ve really help man. I've come to see just the blazing wisdom of this idea of psychological safety that the the teams that function the best have this mysterious quality of psychology. Safety, which can be summed up as just the safety that even the most junior people on the staff feel to speak up and I am just obsessed with that notion and just the teams that I work with now, making sure that you know I present as humble and interested in other people's opinions, and sometimes I actually am what something

You ve reluctantly said yes to that turned out really well so during the pandemic, not that its fully over, but at the height of the pandemic, my family, and I moved out of the city in your city that we love so much. My wife grew up in manhattan. Son was a real city. Kid he's back yard was effectively central park, although we didn't have enough money to actually live on the park, we live a few blocks away and that's where he played all the time and team. not he, my son was not doing well in the pandemic, and so we move. I moved. I said yes reluctantly to moving. temporarily to the suburbs, which I had always considered to be a form of death- and I remember the first hey. We were there. I was sitting in a pool with my son and he got out of the pool and was he he was talking to herself. The way kids often do, and he didn't know that I could hear him. He was going to get a pool toy or something, and he said this is the best day of my life, and I was like

guess we're never going back and yeah turns out that I really like it. I do miss the city a lot, but just the constant access to nature- again. This is backed up by science. Is just you know, and- and you won't be surprised you as somebody who lives in montana part, but that the just has a huge bullying effect on the psyche. Incredible, it's incredible. If you had a perfect the line you're spending with your values. This is a super nosey question, so forgive me if he had a perfectly align you're spending with your values. What would change its tariff to think about this because I think an enormous amount would change. I find little effect altruism argument, which is basically that you know you should give away most of your money has literally twenty five hundred dollars can save a life demonstrably so any money you're not giving away is not saving these lives

find. That argument to be extremely convincing, and I have changed me diving you don't we If we give money away quite a bit, but it's not anywhere near what the effect of altruism folks do and yes tumbling. This is not a world where people get what they deserve. What helps you make sense of deep unfairness. I don't think there's any way to make sense of it. I think there's I mean I guess the witness makes sense if it is to think about it in the terms of causes and conditions, and this is a way in which karma can be weapon ized against people, which is to say well, you're, impoverished or malnourished, or not getting the medical care you deserve, because you did something bad in the past life. I do not believe that a what I do think is that you know it's a huge lottery, the womb you come out of and their them in.

edible set of unfathomable set of causes and conditions that that produce these outcomes, and so that's one way to kind of make sense of it. So what next, I think, what next is that two things to be grateful to not take it for granted? In my case that I have had this extraordinarily lucky life. The other step is the word peter parker uncle said spiderman uncle, you know with great power, comes great responsibility on talking to my son about this all the time he has, because I had this incredibly luxurious life, but that comes

with strings and those strings are that you need to give back and that's up to you to figure out how you're going to do it. But you you need to use your platform for good and the good news here, and I think this is potentially the saving grace for the entire species. At a moment when we have so many problems, but the good news is that we have so many design flaws, but one design feature in the human software is that it feels good to do good and we can ride that a long way at this perilous moment in the history of a species, and so it doesn't have to be a hair shirt, the this doing good it can, it can

you can be a will improve your life. I just want to thank you. Parents adequately for hair shirt and now it's that its those kinds of poetic phrasing. There really bring me back to Dan Harris over and over and over again as we're in this hetty thing and then you're like a dozen to be a hair shirt. It's either that or it's I'm a show off. You know it's like as an offense, or you know I was I was raised by over educated parents, I'm not actually over educated and go beyond college, but I I tend to show up and So you don't know where there's no way your parents brought you here, sure that's a dns original bit so, but speaking of children and your little guy and I'm so enviously of an eight year old. My kids are twenty one and twenty. People say I want my kids to be happy. They say I want my kids to be good people above all. What do you want your kid to be? I would

invert. That order, I wanted to be a good person. I think that will make him happy and you know its delicate because it kids are wired to reject all the attacks if you give them so I tried to be really careful about pushing kindness on him in a way. Actually, I was emailing with with my brother today and he was telling me about a buddy of his who was raised by devout buddhists and, as a consequence, completely rejects it, probably to his detriment. I mean not know this person, but you know but isn't pretty helpful. I ethic properly understood, and so I don't want that. Abu myself, your I'm, a pretty devout buddhist myself in my way- and I really try hard enough- be annoying with him. I will say in this, I think, is evidence that its goings reasonably well, he brought home or somewhere in his

My my wife found this doodling. He was doing orb era, some sort of our work at school and it was the loving kindness phrases may be happy, may be safe, healthy, live with ease, she frame them and put him in my office. So, like that's a pretty good son, that's amazing, when I went to visit my daughter at uv. She was a freshman a first year as they like to say their fur parents weekend. We were walking to the full a game and she like threw her arms around me and said. You know. You asked me if I homesick at all- and I have been a couple times, but instead of calling you I just listen to your package It's very sweet and unrealistic urge to say uv that so good a job at a future.

It is only right and left me. I am so. The kind of work that we do gives us opportunities gives lad opportunities for eager boosts so out of applause out there. It there's followers their speakers fees, there's, first class flights, there's cool invitations to staff, the not everybody is to go to, and I know that the buddhist consider fame and privilege and influence and well to be a carton of rotten eggs, and I wondered how are you doing with your partner rotten eggs like? Is it totally an impediment to your personal growth, or is it somehow in balance with what you're looking for well, here's where have landed on this, and you can tell me what you think, because I think my desire for fame and remuneration has bad. I storyline about what a asshole I am well, how thoroughly rotten I am

so it's kind of weapon eyes? I must say I wondered like at the very top when you are like The story that I'm a monster I was like. Do you like? Do you really think you're a monster like that's really quite a statement to make about yourself like and if you do that's like canada. Tragic, like you know, there's a lot of things that a person could do with their days and do things you're doing with your days like more or less on them to the good like, even even, if you're being paid. Oh, and even, if you're fine, to mature being applauded too much, you forget how to carry your own bags. It's still like here on the right side of a line, but then I

I wonder, do I want him to be on the right side of the line so that I can be on the right side of the line cause I'm like right behind. You like well, so be clear. I I think I've largely disabused myself of this notion. It can creep back in occasionally but the practice and therapy I've done since getting that Three sixty review, which really put the story on steroids, has been super helpful answer. Don't really walk around with the story again, but it is you know it's there as a semi and all my listeners were starting to worry, have a have a lot of really caring listeners and they're all going to start. Writing you letters. While I appreciate that you can save them other organic they'll, take the letters its You know we all have these neurotic. and sees an ancient storylines- and you know this was this- was mine.

it's still there and I just had it's up it's a dynamic. What is a stair, the great couples counselor love had she says some things are not problems to be solved. There dynamics to be managed, and I think that for me Did you say it with her accent? Know another dont want the anatomy tat. I met terrified of her she's amazing but she's like an pre scary, in a good way I love you is there anyway to answer your question, I think what I was going to say is, and this was this was I I have this executive coach speaking of privilege that I can have this executive coach, jerry sheriff jerry Colonna, who I recommend as a guest. Actually he's got a new book coming out in a couple of months, or just an incredible guy is sometimes referred to, as the man who makes see owes cry

he's a little man he's never made me cry, but he's been very, very helpful to me and we were talking once about the you know he was. He would often get frustrated with me these we would. have these conversations and I would always bring it back to yeah, but I'm only doing it for this, or I'm only doing it for that, and because I never wanted to let myself out look. I really wanted to look at this and he gave me some context for it. Like look Think about it as an exchange that you it feels good for you, because it does for all humans to get paid and get applause, and that fuels you to do more good work that helps people who then applaud you and pay. You and I think, contextual, icing rican textual icing it in that way as an exchange of to use a loaded term here, love- and I just as parent etiquette think of love as just anything north of neutral- are human.

evolutionarily wired capacity to give a shit. This is an exchange of that and so yeah. I do like getting applause. I can't overturn the way humans are wired, we're wired to play the game of social reputation, and so I do like it can. I turn not from an unhealthy addiction to something that fuels me to do something very helpful to other people, I believe in hope and yeah. I think that's doable anyway, that land for you, as somebody who's, got a similar predicament. I mean that the Yes, promise that I've made to myself is the will Try to give more along the way, give it all. At the end, now that we have some massive pile of money. That's gonna change the world, but, like I don't plan to me any money to my children, and they know it and so that to me,

entire michael, maybe you're, just banking it for some future day, where you get too like give it to people, and then I started to think about stupid things like these micro steps like being really nice to customer service people like it. Airlines are these like faceless people that you're on the phone with who typically have just brought out the absolute worst to me. I started tipping. more like it for a minute when the whole world started asking for tabs like you by like a cup of coffee and they asked for a tip, I was sort of offended by it, I am not even sitting at a table like I just stood in a line, I'm putting my own half and half in it like what am I tipping you for and then I was like. Oh I'll be small, just tell em disturb everybody tipp to you of a guy and tipped starbucks person, and that small step is just

exactly like what you were saying earlier, which is to say this like little hat, where you're doing something throughout the day that that is not only to the good but is also a reminder to you of like this is who wanna be. This is what my values look like an action, and I gotta keep doing this to keep refreshing. I sense of commitment to this any idea of lake. The people you interact with should be, tiny bit better off, because it was you on the other side of the interaction, I'm gonna say it again: one hundred percent How much in what you just said to me saying my ten percent, why we need to say, like ten percent who brought brand ay, I really agree and yeah. Look that it's very easy to listen to a pike asked me you're gonna talk whenever it was him a ted talk and feel inspired, it's really like. What are you doing?

my work. That's why I'm rack this is like meditation or whatever are and it doesn't have to be meditation, but you know what the tipping is a practice that helps you, and I think I use this phrase before like pounded into neurons. You'd, take something out of the realm of mildly inspirational and make it operationally lies in your life and that changes your brain and you start to eat. You know from a buddhist perspective if you can afford it and you and I can afford it. So that's it. That's a blow. in the position to be in but tuning in to what does it feel like to give these tips it feels good and that you're training the mind overtime to be more generous and to let go and because ultimately, we're gonna have to let it all go, and so it's all a training. For that moment, your dying and and has come in for all of us.

So yeah there's out there is. There is a lot in what you said and and also just comes back again to spiderman uncle, like you know you, if, if you can help, if you're in a position to help you should and that will redound to your benefit. Speaking of It's just back to that. The parties there's a lot of data around what what are called micro interactions and whom the quality, of your interactions with people, even if there really marginal figures in your life like that adds up to happiness. This is the weak ties, research. I love them ties. Research because I totally believe it it was like my in intuition all along. I was raised by this guy who is just like blowing life into the world wherever he went and I saw it and I was like he is having a completely different existed. Yes, then people who have their head down their hands in their pockets

and are not like seeing the person in front of them. The other micro practice is to be interested in other people, so we If, if someone's meeting you at the elevator to take your bags and to help you with this, you know big keynote speech that you're giving somewhere like all that time, walking around with that person like to the extent that you're asking now how many kids do you have? Where are there where'd you grow up? Oh your parents still alive like I've had so many people like that that interaction never going to see him again. Who, at the It will say something so cs like thank you for being interested in me, which makes you think. Oh, I think the last ten people who have been here have been had either had their face in their phone or they were just received in questions. You know they weren't like seeing the personal maiden name and it never occurred to them that the person of its helping them get to the stage is really

a whole person unto themselves every bit as meaningful, as you yourself, this was other one of the things that I learned about it. My three sixty where I was doing a very bad job at this end that was humiliating to hear and getting better added has been massively additive to my life. I know it's so fun. It's so fun to know people and know what they want us yeah, and it goes back to this idea that we're talking about before with the exchange of love, You know that that we are in this double helix us as individuals and the world writ large, and so you can think about self interest in a pretty. You know that the dalai lama talks about it as a wise selfishness. You know that that the ever

It's selfish, but the best way to be selfish is to be generous, because that makes you feel so good and are also like again. It were down to the benefit of the people with whom you're being generous. So that's just a great like rejiggering of my approach to the world. That's happened and I'm not perfect at this catch me on the wrong day. I'm not going to be that chatty with whoever's. You know serving me coffee or whatever, but most of the time now I am well. It takes a minute. You can't take your day says seriously. That's the thing like when I mess it's because I'm in a big rash, and I think it's point, then everything I'm doing I gotta blow through it. I just don't have time today and it's like really do really not not any time today. There is another little practised by the way, and I've been playing with this recently to make it mental note when you're rushing because I'll decide for myself that this is a massive thing in my head of job. Just rushing all the time, and there have been studies that have shown like there was one great study that took seminary students. You've probably heard about this- took seminary students so like.

inspiring priests. I guess, and they sat in a room and they were given a lecture about generosity in helping people and they walked out of the room and their work. anti with somebody on crutches who had fallen over and half of them had been told your late for an employment on the other side, a campus and have and then and those who were told they relate didn't help the dude, with the crutches in these seminary students rushing shuts you down. we're in a rush so often and suggest, to have this little practice of oia rushing. I don't have to rush right now, even if I have a deadline, I can do it without rushing relax, relax just do what you need to do. I find that, like a really rich little life hack I'll, add one to it, which is tit in an attempt to slow down the whole world. I try not to respond to emails as quickly as I used to, because I want to indicate like I'm gonna take a day and then you may

take a day and we may all take a day like it's, not all that urgent, like there's eight billion people here we're working on something if doesn't work out, if it if it gets bumped back a little bit like. So what like, let's not drive each other crazy along. The way like today counts today means something we should give it a chance to be great, and if I set the pace. And say this is how we're going to do this email thing, I'm going to respond in ten minutes and you're in responded in minutes and during responded. Ten minutes then nobody's where they are nobodies present in the whole chain. That's I'm smirking ruefully, because I'm terrible at this- I think about christa tippit texting me. I texts that are like literally right back so yeah. I respond quickly, which maybe I shouldn't have love. We start texting just brace

because I'm a slight way down dan way down. Ok. Last question: we know that it's our by meaningful connection to others. You met so many people through your work and I'm wondering if you could tell us about someone you ve met through the pad. Who is really changed for the better? We done, I think, six hundred episode. So that's a large pool to choose from. I will pick Joseph Goldstein referenced earlier, whose I didn't meet him through the pod. Just to be honest, I met him through broadcaster, SAM Harris, who is a dedicated, meditate, her and long time. Friends with this incredible meditation teacher named Joseph Goldstein and Joseph has become my teacher, and I

on retreat with him once or twice a year and he's on my part all the time and is just like my one of my favorite human beings of all time and he's not a stereotypical meditation teacher. He doesn't where robes or anything like that is like a man. She nearly eighty jewish guy and he's got this kind of bush belt style humor and teaches in these little slogans these or phrases one of them. From sternly or like don't side with yourself, and I find that, Key moments, his little phrases come up in my head, another one which would be relevant. Some of the conversations we ve been having is, and he took this from father gregory boil love, no matter what you know that can sound a little cheesy at first, but it basically just means when you're pissed off at somebody just try to understand the causes and since try to try to nazi with yourself into understand, to take a gods. I view whether you bill

I mean god or not, and I'm agnostic on the issue, but just to have some perspective and see we're all acting out and to one degree or another doing our best, and that just can it's a huge relief and you just have in my life to have his little phrases coming up in my head at key moments has been massively helpful. Something I've always loved about the buddhist is that they all seem to have such a great sense of humor and like these kind of bubbly laughs, and they do have these very clever ways of taking something really enormous and consequential and boiling it down to, like five word statement that you'll never forget that you give tattoo on your for arms and it would make every day of your life better. So I'm with you the one. I love that you had we're at a time, but I just one Tell you this this. I can't remember his name, and I was looking at my phone to see cause. I knew I I thought I downloaded it, but I hadn't it was this like live

Funny monk mingled really he's so great. I mean I listened to it twice. I sent it to my kids. I was like to sink your heart into this. Just live in this, listen to it everyday for a week like let it get in there because just the tone of his voice and his he was so joyful he's this just for people who don't know mingora mache he's also written some books that I recommend he's in he's lives in katmandu, nepal, but he's from the tibetan buddhist lineage and he's a is incredible and he's lived with. Panic he's had panic attacks when he was little, he doesn't have many more, but he still has that penchant for nervousness, and I Hey. This is delightful little story. When I saw him last year at the ted conference we were both giving ted talks. Our first ted talks- and I saw that I was so relieved. I was like how many years here this is great I'll, have somebody that I can. You know like feel comfortable with, and I I walked up to him as like how you doing he said dying.

yeah so great. It was just so relieved to know that this guy, who is a buddhist monk and a just a revered buddhist monk at that, was nervous about giving et talk and I got down and backstage right before you went on to give his dark and sat with him for a little bit. Yet he was wonderful. You check out has taught us that, in common with both of you, I have had a few panic attacked my day that a teacher If you think about what the mine can do to the body, yeah we're animals, the fighter flight is room you're such a joy. Thank you so much for your work, I'm delighted to know you and am thanks for coming on right back at you. Do things for the amazing questions. All that matters is that I did a better job, Thus, a you'll you'll tell me you'll get healthy, very healthy dan, that's a very healthy point, and here they are a real information through all of us are these. I do gooders definite It showed the EU pilot competing with each other and we, like the z based on the pied cast. That's not they re doing

action dan, we're still human beings. And you know why buddhists have a great sense of humor is because you can't look at your mind for an extended period of time without laughing cause. It's ridiculous! That's by the way. The number one most frequently used word by Joseph Goldstein ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Your mind is ridiculous, and so the sooner you can get comfortable with that familiar with it to repeat the phrase you just won't be owned by it as much it's great taxi fabric. This is great. Thank you for having me unappreciated such a pleasure, my pleasure. Before we get to the take away, as I do want to say, if you have thoughts on today's conversation, please showed us a note. Our aim is hello at kelly corrigan. Dotcom. Ok, here are my take away from my conversation with Dan harris number one. The brain

and by extension, the mind are training or you are not stuck with the factory settings number two. We need to pound humility into our neurons number. Three ignorance is not bliss. When you swelled something you give it a lot of power number four. If you want a team to function at its very best, you must establish a condition of psychological safety. Number five, although we humans have so many design flaws, one design feature is that it feels good to do good. inverse six stop rushing number seven dan harris and krista Tippett may be two of our best practitioners of mindfulness, but that doesn't keep them from a little competitiveness once in a while. Thank you dan Harris. Thank you

the team at aspen ideas festival who helped make this interview possible. That's tricia, Johnson, kara stein, Elinor loading and gave china with. Thank you all to the team. Kelly corrigan wonders technical producer, dean, Caterie, executive producer, Tammy stedman, our graphic artist geigy, as well as rachel hicks and charlie up church, who help us stay connected. Also to you all for listening and sharing our show with friends around the country will be back on friday with new for the good of the order. and on sunday with a new thanks for being here in the meantime feel free to email us our. Address, is hello at kelly, corrigan, dot com or you can find man instagram anytime, Kelly corrigan thanks everybody, a prime members. You can listen to ten and happier early and ad free on amazon music downloads

amazon, music, tat today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad? tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant.