This is the ten percent happier podcast dan, hence hello, there buddy today. We're gonna talk about the science of why we get burned out and how we can fix it. Emily and Amelia nagasaki or the co authors of a best selling book called burn out the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. In this conversation, we talk about the three characteristics of burn out. The difference between addressing stressful circumstances in your life. Dealing with the actual visibility of stress and the evidence based interventions. You can try right now. A couple of note here, the nagoya skis book places a heavy emphasis on burn out among women, but this interview is designed to be useful for everybody. Also, this episode part of our recurring deep cuts series where

dig into our vast archives to bring you some sanity during the holidays. A few weeks ago, several families that we know got together we'll stayed in an air being b on the side of a mountain on a beautiful fall weekend and it was really magical. I love a hotel now and again, but when you're with a bunch of families, we really want to spend time with. I think it's great to all under the same roof to not have everybody retreating to their own personal lairs. At the end of the day, it really was a great bonding experience, and I love We do that by the way, that's not the only way to use air being beat. As you know, today sees in his here, which means travelling to see famine, friends and here is something you may not have considered before, while you're out of town. Maybe your place could be in arabic, we think about it. You could be sitting on an air being be and not even know it. It's a smart, simple way to make some extra money, especially over the holidays, when a lot of us are away from our home.

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Pretty amazing see the boys in the boat now playing only in theaters get tickets at boys in the boat movie dot com The show is sponsored by better help women. Harris family are pretty traditional when it comes to the giving of gifts nine year old boy who likes toys, Wickham toys. I get my white jewelry, although I'm sure she'd be happy without it, but I like to do it anyway. However, your family does gifts during the holidays. You get to define how you give to yourself and the house These are great time to do. That, may be given easier on yourself. Maybe you could give yourself the gift of one day of complete rest, or maybe you could give yourself the gift of therapy. You could even give

Better health, a try its entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapists and switch therapists. any time for no additional charge in the season of gear. Give yourself what you need with better help visit better help, dot com, slash happier to day to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, hd lp dot com, slash happier. Emily Amelia work of their job- I hello you write, so the very failing that, I think, is a good place to start. You have said, and I'm quoting here, we wrote it meaning this book because its the book we needed ourselves? Can you tell me that story, Amelia yeah, it's

did back in two thousand and ten. Let's pretend that's the beginning of a story, round about that time, I was in doctoral school and I was hospitalized with stress induced this. I had abdominal pain they couldn't figure out of they told me. It's just stress: go home and relax by dumb. I was working three part time jobs and a full time, doctoral students and a stepmother too teenagers at like community. sixty five miles each way to my school, like relax, was in the cards. For me, that is not an option. I needed something that I could actually do to help me and luckily I have a sister with a phd in health behavior and she knew a lot of research and besides repeated Do you have a thing that's different about Emily. Is that she, under stands about how stress works in the body. She has always intuited and understood what

happening to her body when she feels stressed or really any kind of emotion, so one was in the hospital, and I started my mind for this practice when I was fourteen just to give you an idea, and I started when I was like thirty seven so so did I, the good news is it's, never too late. So I was in the hospital and Emily drove down from below her house to the hospital and just brought me this stack of peer reviewed science about what the actual chemistry and physiology of stress? Is it turned that's, not all that I needed. I did need that, but I so needed. Someone to affirm to me and to show me that and imagining it that the stress oars? I was facing we're, not things like control that the sexism, the massage any that is inherent in classical music, which is what I have my doctorate in that that stress that I felt the friction. I felt between myself. and the world. I was in what

really truly genuinely acting as a stress or on me. I wasn't it. I was making it up and damn it that the resources I need a were so far. Flung and weather work is. Is we brought all those far flung resources together of by ecology and sociology and psychology and philosophy, and dick and art and stories and disney princesses emily. What's the story from your perspective, my story is that in twenty fifteen I published a book called commission, wire, which is about the science of women, sexual wellbeing and because the best, victor of women's sexual well being is her overall well being there's a chapter in that book about stress and feelings and emotion, processing and then a whole lot of other chapters about the signs of sex itself, and

as I was traveling around with that book people over and over kept saying to me yeah, I got all the sex. Science is great Emily, but you know the one chapter that changed everything for me was that one chapter about stress- an emotion, processing- and I was approved and I said that to Amelia and Amelia reminded me hey you know how, when you taught me that stuff that you would eventually potent come as you are, and you remember how it you know, save my life. She said twice. She said because she was hospitalized waste, and that is why I was like. Ah, yes, we should write a book about that. So that's what we did so just a judge, I would have had a boy, you said mealy, you are hospitalized twice and you believe this. The information that we're in a dive into, in short order, saved your life. Both ties. Yes, and also in the bigger picture. Emily and I are identical, twins raising the same household and yet We are so different in the is that we have responded distress.

in our lives. Emily has always been a feeler who feels, and I have always been not. I've always been a super grades at focusing and getting down to business and rule, pressing anything. That's inconvenient in the mean time, because this was my natural response to stress- was due, ignore it and to repress it and to shove it as we have learned into my body to go hide. I had a lot of chronic illness in chronic pain and even The time I was in my twenties, I didn't believe I'd live much past. My forties I didn't think, I'd live to see fifty five for sure, because I was always so sick and always in so much pain. I thought I was just fundamentally broken. Nope turns out I'm just fundamentally really great, ever pressing my emotions and I needed to learn the skill of moving through the cycle to allow them to complete so that, all of that physiological worse

that is the nature of emotion. Did not gets, stuck in my body and cause inflammation and disease, so you saved my life not just like in the short term of like what I have lived through my doctorate, I don't know but also little contacts. I am a covert long holler. I am currently recovering from shingles, but in the big through the context. The last five or ten years I've been the healthiest I've ever been because I haven't been like stuff in wondering why I feel so terrible all the time now when I get sick, I know like ok, there's this structural problem, there's this whatever, but I also know what to do about the things that are not related to occur, structural illness. the reasons it does make sense and I'm really sorry about the laura covered in the shingles. That's that's just that just happens right now, that's a passing moment of whatever her, but I didn't

felt like a lie when I was going to say that I was the healthiest er ben, because clearly, that's not true at this moment, but In my life like this is wrong at least wildly speaking. This is the time in my life when I'm in forty four years old and I'm much healthier now than I was when I was thirty four and I hope the things you're dealing with now pass quickly, absolutely yeah. So let me ask a foundational question. and we ve covered burn out on the show before, but I do want to get you to do I've, what exactly is burn out and what are the three components therein the formal definition establishing the nineteen seventy says that burn out is a combination of de personal, nation, which is where you have a decrease sort of like investment in your work

I step back emotionally so that you're not personally showing up in the work. A decreased sense of accomplishment where you're working harder and harder and you feel like you're, accomplishing less and less and then the third is emotional. Exhaustion and it's that emotional exhaustion for women in particular. What kind of for everybody that is, the real problem in terms of your personal, biological, physical health, because the term emotional exhaustion it sounds intuitive, but what's emotion and how do you exhausted, which way Spend you know a chapter defining, but the short version is that emotions are biological cycles that happen Your body million doesn't love it when they use it adjusted analogy, but you know digestion, the beginning, a metal and an end, and you know that if you don't go all the way through that cycles, and not so great things can happen. Emotion,

all the same they heavy beginning when their activated by some stress or by a loved one or by a movie that you're watching they have a middle. Where you go through the process at an end, were you complete that cycle of activation? turned to a state that is closer to peace, And balance burn out motions. Exhaustion happens when you get stuck in the middle of that emotional cycle. Feelings are, tunnels have to go all the way through the tunnel to get to the lead at the end. Are you have a whole treasury of advice for getting through this? oh yeah, there's like a dozen concrete, specific evidence based strategies for completing the cycles in your body when they get activated yeah the most important thing about the fact that stress, is a cycle that happens in your body, that's really great news, because it means that you can deal with the stress sets happening in your body, even Few can't necessarily a deal right away with

thing that initiated the stress in your body. When you separate those two things and deal with them in separate processes, it means that you can feel better right now, even before whatever stressful is gone it also does mean that, just because dreadful thing is gone. Doesn't necessarily mean that you you've dealt with the stress in your body, so say, there's extreme example like a global pandemic with worldwide lockdown. That might be stressed, full rights and when it's over, even when its lifted, even when we're safe yet still might be experiencing some feelings of stress. that are left over, even though your body is no safe and free. It might not know that because it hasn't gone through the cycles, because the thing due to deal with a pandemic, is not same behaviors, that you engage with your body to complete a thrust

on cycle, as you were evolved to do, it means fighter flight kind of situation. Your advice is universal and applicable to anybody, but there's a huge This is in the book in your work generally on women, and so I do want to touch on that because, Your argument is that women experience burn out differently. How so the results so far suggest that that emotional exhaustion? I was done about. Is the primary experience of burn out for women, whereas for men the primary experience of burn out is decreasing accomplished working harder and harder for less and less feeling of actually getting anything done. Why is that, probably not biology. It's probably because of the ways we. Women and girls are taught to behave around emotions, but how to behave like amelia were taught. We expect what a million I e in the book call human giver syndrome

The rules of your life are that you have a moral obligation to be pretty happy com general. and unfailingly attentive to the needs of others, and so, if you pause to care for your own needs to complete your own physiological stress response cycle, for example, through physical activity or rest or a great big cry, or of belly laugh or whatever it is you need you are here. in no way energy time attention you could be given to somebody else. I know people say like a cat poor from him, we cut, but the thing is when you're a human giver. If I Emily am standing there with an empty cup as a human giver, people don't say to me: oh let me give you some water Emily. What they say is Emily. What are you doing with that empty cup? Don't you see Frankie over there has all that water and not enough cups. I mean no keep your cup good for you. Self care is so important good for you,

that's human giver syndrome, and it doesn't just happen. We adopted this language rule book called down girls, the logic of massage any by a moral for also named Kate man and, as you can tell by the title down girl, Jacob massage any its mother all of macedonia and the patriarchy and how it exacerbates does reason, for women by creating a system of oppression, but, of course, systems Oppression are not binary, it's not that all the men are bad and all the women are good, not even remotely close, but does it make a clear illustration of a system that has a population who feel entitled to what the others have to offer and another part of the population, who feel a moral obligation upon them to give everything they have to the people in power. And power does not just come from masculinity. Although power is inherent in masculinity in our society that the nature of patriarchy men have more access

Two positions of power that give them region They need to stay healthy, but white people do too So if you are a woman, yes, that is your place on the enter section of oppression. But if you are a white woman, you ve got something that is a privilege that gives you more access to power than a person of color this also happens if you are not english, speaking and united states if you are non christian in the united states, if you are not fully a body and in the ways that the world expects you to being, if your mental health is not the standard default, mental health, if you orton? non neuro typical. Basically, what I'm saying is that everybody in the world. Has something that makes them not conform to the socially directed ideal, so there Nobody who is unaffected by system repression. So if you walking around in a human body. What, then,

It is that this cycle of stress completion, is the same for everybody whose in a human body and if you are watson who exists in the united states and the industrialized late, capitalist west in general, use. Certainly have encountered friction between who you are and who the world rewards for conforming to socially constructed ideal wishes really what the book is about, is how to make those two things reconcile and fix without reading about both of you before doing this, our view in and reading about this, what you called the human giver syndrome, I just started trying to interpret back into my personal history and thinking of like am I doing this consciously or subconsciously, do my bring this attitude,

entitlement to my relationship with, say my wife for my mom or my female colleagues its humbling to contemplate. Did you ask em? I just. Research did yeah. I did my research late today right before so I haven't had a chance and I'm a little scared, but the only way to know the answer to the question of my doing this is to ask the people and recognising that, like, if you are taking on the role of what caveman calls a human being, whose sort of morally obliged to be competitive, acquisitive tired old in order to maximize their potential and therefore you feel entitled without being aware of it to taken receive anything the givers give if you're doing that to people who are in a giver role. The first time you ask: do you feel like I'm treating you as if I'm entitled to your emotional labour, for example, because there in givers there only

right answer is no, you re you're, one of the ones are doing it right, don't worry everything's, so you're gonna probably have to ask more than once and ask in different ways and like contextual eyes, the question and say like I'm, actually asking and I want to know about ways I could potentially be doing better and it's not just you We as why women who are such gender and able bodied vows. Ways that we can forms the socially constructed ideal mean that we so can have a history of having treated people who are not english, speaking and white, and able bodied, etc in the same way of just not noticing that society has given us entitlement a sense of. Oh, of course. This is how we treat those people who are different and it's not conscious, but we can have. Starting from a place where? Yes, of course, we- are guilty of having

If other people were entitled to their time in their lives and their bodies, the to do now is just exactly what you did, which is to question o. Have I done this and to explore the ways that oh yeah you most certainly have all of us have and to you know, get super honest with ourselves about our role, and this isn't over the because about. But let me just take this opportunity to say that in chapter eight, we actually talk about to process the experience of recognising that owes. I have done that, which is We call it. The mad woman in the attic as a concept it comes from an error which is a million favour book man. Man woman, represents our brains, desperate attempt to manage should the on manageable chasm between who we actually are and who the world expects us to be. Whenever, we fall short of those expectations. The madwoman only has two choices. She can either become.

Inflamed with rage at the world for having those obscene expectations of us or it can turn toward us with rage and shame us for falling short and Madame and throws balls of fire lava at me, like you failure. You did this pit terrible thing: everybody's gonna hate you and it's really easy to become incapable. of navigating the world. When you let that swamp you and so our advice is grounded honestly and self compassion. Were you turned toward that cruel part of you with kindness and compassion? when you can have that like com, curious, compassionate relationship with the ferule list voice. In your hand, it allows to create space for learning recognising when you ve done harm king amends and growing in learning from it, as opposed to just beating the crap out yourself for it I want to say somewhere.

if appreciation, I don't know if this is going to land correctly, but it's on my mind so I'll say it one of the frequent criticisms I and we here at the ten percent happier podcast have received since the spring of two thousand and twenty. When we started doing a lot, we'd already been doing quite a bit on on racism. Sexism bias generally, but we started a lot more after the murder of george floyd him. One of the criticisms is that we get occasionally is you know, you're too woke you doing too much social justice, stuff, blah blah blah, and I started getting nervous caused you to yasser using the language of those systems of oppression, etc, etc. But I do hope shit and I'm on your side, but I also really just appreciate that you are talking about this stuff forthrightly and with zeal detectable sanctimonious and a lot of humor and self awareness. So I just want to express my appreciation,

there is actually a review of the book on amazon that calls our book a feminist, scream and I was like nailed it? but its solutions. oriented feminists cookie. That's right there, No one! No one spoke. They just lays out like a look. How terrible the problems are. Systemic injustice, left and right is also like by the way you do I have to wait for the world to be a just place before you begin to feel better in your body and in your relationships and in fact we can't wait to feel better because the world, the staff, quo, really benefits from us feeling, terrible and being so exhausted that we cannot fight and so if we, are now to complete our structures bond cycles to do with burn out in ways that are actually effective. We are better. Our relationships are

our communities get stronger and, as each of those levels gets stronger, love forces, of systemic and justice cannot win against us. The he's an artery lords of itself. Care is an act of political warfare is because the survival of people who are systemically oppressed, is the opposite of the continuance of injustice. so much here. So let's do I feel like this may not be what you thought you were and for our biology pits. That's not true. I might prepares the very well I didn't know, you're gonna be funny, so that's cool but beyond trade, through my expectation, turning to deepen heavy. I do have a song about the abyss. If you wanna haven't ample of a thing, that's a little more light. Hearted leave this is that between a who we aren't you. The world expects us to be to do this on. Ok,

such a prompt? This is a song about the abyss, the chasm who you are and who the world expects you to be who does the world say that I should be, and what do I do? I don't agree. Rational me says that I'm a nurse I primate brain says not fitting. His rough solutions are clear. I should be myself and deal with the world when it puts me through Hell. More easier still is to be what they say. That only requires. I give my solo way to the eu eu to office.

It goes here. I ask you to choose which ever you pick there's something to whether or not we are all on this road and going to gather is a journey of hope through the news The figures are correct, medium bead on it. You gotta hit. Ok, so I think we ve got a lot there on the big picture. I think it's if you agree, now might be the time to talk about what to do about it technically, so you darting the book with something you ve already mentioned, but it might be worth explaining what it means and how do we do it? Completing the stress cycle? Okay, this is Emily again, I'm the bubble, help person, and so I am

alpha right now, so the fight or flight response, which is not just fight or flight. Obviously it's fight flight freeze, fawn tend to befriend it's the stress response activated by somebody that your brain seized as a potential threat in the our modern environment. The things are brain perceives as a potential threat tend to be things like money and traffic and work and relationships, and our kids or pandemic, the world's own literal fire, small stuff, your brain region, that information in goes out. There might be a potential threat and in activates the physiological stress response itself, which is the adrenaline cortisol in everything that we are familiar with, that event too narrowly is supposed to respond to things like lions. Now, the great thing about being chased by a line is that it doesn't. Last long, you see the lion, your brain activates stress response and it motives

to work with the increase in blood pressure. The increase in heart rate, the changes in your digestion changes in your immune functioning changes. They know your hormones. Its whole point is to help you to deal with the stress or which is by running so start to run and at this point, there's only two possible outcomes. The first one is, you get. You know eaten by four lion, in which case Nonetheless, this matters or you escaped So, let's imagine a world where stress response activated, you start running wherein the environment of evolutionary adapted, miss so you're running across the van of africa. Back to your village, somebody seed you coming in waves, you through their door and then you both stand with your shoulder against the door and this very persistent lion, roars and charges in europe can really hard, together with the other person, to save your life and eventually the lange gives up watch it walk away and it disappears, into the trees and new turned toward this person who just help save your life. And how do you feel now?

relieved and had to be alive, and you love your friends and family in the sun seems to shine brighter right. That's the complete dress response cycle. But in our world now, if you're strasser, is your traffic than yours. Sitting in traffic with your shoulders, trying to be here, earrings, be when all the same physiological stuff is happening, the changes dear digestion near respiration and all the rest of it, and then you can really do make it home at the end of this terrible commute and when you get home. Do you suddenly feel it'll, lighted and powerful and glad to be alive? And you love your friends and family? Or do you still you want a punch somebody in the face? That is the difference between dealing with the stress sore, Like if you make it home anti trafficking day without stress or versus dealing with the stress in your body, so instead

going into your home at the end of your difficult commute and then taking out your stuff response on whatever mammal you see. First, you stay it outside, and you tense up every muscle in your body hard hard hard for a very slow count of ten and a little bit longer than that and your muscles are telling you really want to stop and think I'm ready to stop know little longer than you up. and you allow your most to relax just that little bit of physical activity, can be enough of a cue to siphon off the most intense level of this activation in your body and that physical shift is the cue to your body, that it is now a safe place for you to be so because running away from a lion is more, were designed to do physical activity of any kind. And even a symbol is just tensing up. Every muscle is the single most efficient strata,

gee for completing the start response cycle? Physical activity is obviously not available to everyone. Some people just are not natural exercises amelia but she thought I was making it up when I said that like I would you know when I was in grad school lowered ride. My bike too, top of a hill out in the country in Indiana and I'd, see a cow and I'd feel connected to the cow and the grass in the sun and the light beating up off the pavement, and I really felt this like magnificent peak expiring, and she thought I was inventing, because you'd never have to be her kid. There's listening right now, who I like? That's, not real You made that up and then there are other people who, like runners and Swimmers and they know exactly that, feeling that when you actually do have this, and I just for the people who thinks he's making it up, there's people in the world who actually you feel that did you know I didn't know so physical activity, when you have that experience of like you get done with your right, no matter how reluctant you were to put on your shoes, you get back from

I work out and you're like ugh, so glad I did that that was such a good idea. I feel so much better. That's your body completing the stress response cycle, but for all the people who are disabled of chronic pain, chronic illness, if you're, trans and want to go to the gym going into the locker room, could be putting yourself in more danger as opposed to dealing with your stress. So physical activity is not available to everyone? Fortunately, there are at least six more concrete, specific evidence based strategies. My favorite is sleep. Sleep is one of those things where I mean like action we would like. Oh exercise is good for me, Emily and Amelia. Thank you so much, I m glad it twelve dollars. I just interrupt for one second, because Emily has started talking about sleep and she does like an hour in fifteen minute talk. She does that generate about sleep. So if you thought that the iraqi thing was a tangent. This

really middle. Maybe needn't like put women on how much can you let us take it for good. that everybody knows somewhere between. seven nine hours, people very individually, I'm a seven and a half hours sleeper amelia, my identical. And is a nine hours sleeper, and if she only gets h, you really feel that people there and yet, when I was in high school, when I learned that people need eight hours of sleep and I would get eight hours of sleep and still feel tired, it was not enough for me. I thought I was broken and lazy, because the world had told me that people need eight hours and I I really needed more than eight hours, and I thought I was sickly and weak nope turns out, If I sleep nine hours, I'm fine so there injustices around. Like I guess I have light sleeper privilege. I have seven and a half hours sleeper privilege and also an early bird. We have a brother who is natural, go to bed, time is three m. It is real hard for him to find a job where he can sleep accordingly.

These bodies needs, and if you can't sleep, according to as bodies needs the work that he this is not going to be as high quality, because his body is not gonna be functioning at its best possible where exactly and then The third structure of sleep to understand about yourself, so there's number of hours of sleep. There is what is your natural circadian rhythm and then what is your sleep chongqing for lack of a better word some people, the solid eight hours, is great, but that's not biologically realistic for what humans are designed for, there's also by phasic sleep where you have a first sleep and then you wake up for an hour or two, and you have a second sleep that, before the industrial revolution may have been how human slept most of the time and there's multi phasing sleepers people who may have a solid drunk at night or by physically by night and then our neighbours in the middle of the day, many People are not natural members. If snapping screws up your sleep at night, that's how you know. Nothing is not for you, but if you are

mapper. There is nothing more productive. You can be doing with your time, then sleeping ocampo stop talking. That's, because I really do want to talk about the other ones. There's imagination, Emily. You talk about imagination. Imagination was the first thing that worked for me, because sleep was not an option when I was in doctoral school and physical. Active It was just not a thing that my body responded to the way that, like Emily's day, for example, but when I learned that imagination can initiate a stress response go like when you're nervous about a job interview right, there's nothing there, that's physically. threat. Your imagination has, in and distress to initiate a swift response It's really good news, because I mean your imagination, can also complete a struck respond cycle. So I would imagine myself as godzilla tramping on dateline grant institution where I was getting my doctorate so like the parking lot.

At long loop drive? You have to go round to find a spot to park in and the birth of our affairs ra ra, and I would imagine myself all the way through this. While I was, you know, an elliptical machine or something else, but I wasn't what my body did. I didn't change anything that my body did. It was my experience of this. Three, in my mind, that led me through the complete struck, respond cycle- and you know have to lead yourself through like this, if you read a book where we you get to the end you're like. Ah, are you watch a movie and every working hours, just like like arms, the air and this pomp, and that is the feeling of a complete stop lisbon cycle. While europe body was sitting in a chair staring at a page or at a scream, your by inside, went through the structural funds cycle.

Playing video games also gives a lot of people this feeling and this cycle completing availability and it's just because when you participating in a story that is a complete structure. Bon cycle built in which a lot of stories are cassettes. How humans are you benefit from it? You live through. It also has a greater extension of that The next one beyond imagination is creative self expression. Where, if you take that imagination. That story whatever was in your head and you use it to create something outside of yourself it could be a meal, it could be a painting, it could be a song and you take all the feelings that are hard and you put them someplace, safe so they're not living in your body anymore. That can take you all the way through a stress response cycle emily, how idle how much time we have or how deep we want to go into the options and possibilities. For me, it's writing

the thing she wasn't sure I would be willing to say is that well I write you know They'll be nonfiction mostly for women most of the time also. I re romance novels, and it is very good for my mental health. So, when therapists tell you to journal, they do not mean that the construction of sentences is inherently good for your mental health. They mean that you can take all those feelings chain. all them through the writing out on to the page and then it not doing your body any harm, but it's also not taken out on any other person to do anybody any harm so for and when I got home from work after particularly difficult day, in my usual, go to would have been like go for a run and then take a hot bath, and my husband would bring me like an apologetic glass of wine. But this time I sat at my computer- and I took all of my stress and frustration and rage- and I put it in

my romance novel, I wrote my happily ever after with my hero his knees begging for the heroin to accept him hoping that he can be deserved by her and what this looks like on the outside as me like sobbing, on my keyboard and what it felt like inside was that, like the pages of my difficult day, that story were soaking in the rain in an crumbling to pieces, so that I could make new blank sheets out of it and write the ending that I wanted. So I use that creative let as a way to complete the story to complete the physiological stress response in my body: I've the example of that in the form of a song, but it has a lot of the f word in it, go forward. Maybe I'm just an example of a song that I wrote as a way of creative self expression and other people.

into it and they also have the experience of being like? Ah so this is how the so annoyed song the plugged in did. I turn it on. Why won't work are the cables old. Is the connection loose Why wont work I'm so annoy so annoyed. Why won't work is my sounds or so. Language did is my webcam on five on it being worth I join with audio or click on mute Why won't it being words? I'm so annoyed annoyed. Why wanted in work every time I think I know what to do they never worries, I reset what I expect them. Something goes wrong. It's never.

in worse still, I drive. I try some day make it work based on the truth, You can see how, in a moment of stress making something can get you through to the other side, a bit it feels like all the world is a safe place. That's really The thing about our brains is that it doesn't you make a big distinction between what we very vividly imagine and what action what is happening in the external world more my conversation with Amelia and Emily nagasaki ready for this this holiday season don't forget to give yourself a gift: how about treating yourself the wholesome, delicious, convenient meals with butcher box? They take the guesswork.

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the good people from Maui nui sent my family a box of venison jerky sticks, my son, and I too we're into them quite delicious. My son loved the venison sticks so much. They actually turned to his mom and said: can you keep these in the car so that I can have them as after school snacks pretty salad endorsement visit, maui new events in dot com, slash happier and get twenty percent off your first order of jerky sticks fresh cut, delicious bone broth with unmatched twenty five grams of protein, and even your first on a box absurd sean snag, one of their limited memberships. While you can at maui, neue, venison dot com. Slash happier that I may you I end HU. I ve an eye s, o n dot com, slash happier. Quick reminder: we ve got a great new year's coming up on J

A third right here in the pot cast featuring the non negotiable where we compile some of the smartest people we know and ask him about their must have practices and principles featuring asked at burrell, John Cabot's in Pema, chodron and more and overall members out happier app. We ve gotta new year's meditation challenge for people who are imperfect, meaning everybody that kicks off on january, eighth I recently court unquote thought my son a drum said my six year old son. Actually, I'm the one who plays at the most- and it is a great stress- really yeah ass- to roaming good. That is a particularly. Not only does it used a lot of different limbs, but like the use and creation and maintenance of rhythm, something that our bodies are built to do. It is about cycles and pulses

and when you engage your body in those kinds of repeated systems, it's so good for you yeah. It actually helps people be loving, be loving, Amelia talk about the baby about study yeah when we move together in time, it is shown that it increases behaviors associated with love with unity with care, so for them there's this research study, on toddlers where it yet make a toddler in your strap. It too running your body right? You know in one of those carrying things and when you bounds baby in one of those they love it. Man, babies like the bounds. The bounds bounds, the baby, so they bounce the baby and the baby is looking at another person who is standing opposite you and, if that point, in bounces in time synchronously with the baby, who is bouncing all we bounce together at the same time as opposed to

announcing a synchronously or bouncing in opposite directions when the baby bounces synchronously with that person and then a few minutes later person sitting at a desk and drops a pencil that time or is more likely to go, pick up that pencil and handed to the person, because they have bonded more strongly just through the action, of moving in time together our bodies are made to engage to end train with other humans, this physical proximity, if possible also any kind of visual or other sensory movement and something of each other together causing this The mind is not contained within the skin. We are as John height, says ninety percent chimp ten percent, be we are a hive species. We are meant to do great things together and that really shapes who we are and how we thrive. Not as individuals but as a community. That's how were made to do great things when I was teaching

at college. I would do and annual relationship talk just to teach about relationship and feelings and in the year for and came out. I did a talk called frozen and the signs of the feels lovers open door, and I was asking Amelia. How can I make this like stand out to be a very good talking. Her solution was make it a single on, so I did videos of the songs with, though you know lyrics at the bottom and the ball that bounces across and it's friday night at seven o clock late september beautiful night. I have three hundred college students coming to this talk frozen in the science of the fields, and we get to the middle of the talk I play. Let it go three hundred perfectionist within high achieving social justice might as students all singing that perfect girl is gone there, faces, are shining in the light of a larger than life elsa accessing

power for the first time fully in her life, and I was like how do we get them to do this? Every single day, students came up to me after that talk interior. saying that is exactly what I needed and look. I put it The signs are that talk. That's what I put the most effort into and nobody saying Emily. Thank you so much for the science of attached that really understanding the mechanism. Oxytocin really is what I need to know what they needed was the singing which the thing that I got a doctorate in so right, so we call it the matter trick, likely ultimate burn out beater is to combine all the different stress management strategies. You get physics activity moving your body in time with other people, because connection is also a way of ending the stress response cycle, for a shared purpose, movie

your body in time with other people for a shared purpose, dancing singing marching in our task to praying at a worship service. Those are all things that create a magical shift- in our chemistry we We need to do what, often but boy, if you can do it together when men attaining huge groups- man, it's different or you brought meditation. So what we ve gone through a list of vote allergies for completing the stress eichel. We talk of a physical activity, imagination, sleep, creative expression, you mentioned connectivity or positive, so interaction, but then you mentioned meditation. So is that another way or deep breathing those can be two separate things, but can meditation adored deep breathing be ways to complete the stress cycle the le okay, so fundamentally at its most basic. If you para down like oversimplified when

inhale, it engages the sympathetic nervous system and when you exhale that engages thought parasympathetic if a system, so each exhalation engages the part of your body that makes you feel calm and safe and innovation, we remind you that unita, alertness and whatever out of bed of really basic oversimplified biological level. I wouldn't necessarily call it meditation that has to be done and kind of mindfulness, which we call being aware, without judging so just noticing, sensory experiences. What you see here, taste, touch smell or breathing or movement, were you are attending to the sensations or to the experience internal legal externally and judging it not evaluating it, not saving for later, just being like this was going on right now. That practice I mean, there's pie, in piles and piles of research. That shows that that's really good figure,

so health in a lot of ways. But yet it can remind your body that is safe and that is capable of accessing safety, which is sensation of being at the end of a complete structures on cycle, but this probably a lot a meditative listening. I want to make sure we put in the caveat that meditated home. You may experience with meditation she is not inherently a sign that you have completed a stress response cycle. I had body based therapist one time. me. There is a lot of freeze in the somatic experience, in community in the medication community in the yoga community, because there is not an acceptance, we're welcoming of big sort of uncomfortable emotions when meditation provides a sound, where you can allow your body to release a bunch of like dunked up junk

it's dwelling somewhere in your mind or your body- that is a magnificent gift. If your practice is about finding place of total peace and calm, you may be hitting the brakes. Set of allowing the accelerator gas pedal stress response to come to its natural conclusion, does that distinction make sense, yellow missive again take both of your answers in and said this repeated back you in, and then you use in fact check what I just said so deep breathing, which is, in my mind the separate practice, but very much muttering to michaelmas meditation, deep breathing sounds like this quite a bit of evidence that that's a good way to complete a stress response cycle. My vote, meditation or just meditation generally really depends how you do it. I'm hearing, if you're, just trying to feel calm and there are meditation practices that will really do that for you, depending on your attitude that

might make you feel competent might not actually allow the stress to move through the system, whereas in my fulness meditation, with your doing, if you're playing my fullest, at least to the extent that I understand, that term you're sitting back knowledge mentally. With some warmth, watching the stress come and seeing that it naturally passes, and so that would be a to allow the stress cycle to complete yeah talking about breath as a separate practice, remember that in the fighter flight funds. One of the systems that changes is the respiratory system, so simply reacting the deep breathing that you would do while you're running away from the lion. That's your body doing the thing it's made to do to complete the starfish bond cycle, it has a built in response. So yes breath as us practice. There are a lot of various different kinds of breath practice, but at the most fundamental biological level breath and deep breathing you tell your body you we did.

Thing and we are safe when you are meditating for calmness like that, and you know break glass of in case of emergency type, meditation of like I got to. I got to walk in the door right now and I can't be like nervous, and you know when I walk in there. I I just need to be calm right now, and you can just take off whatever and like extend a box and I've been in a corner to deal its later the thing that needs to happen aid or is you pull that box out when you open it up and you let whatever was in their fly? Imagine crying that's another way, as I understand it, to complete a stress cycle. yeah yeah yeah. This is so el. The thing about how Emily was like could do Physical activity. Do crying to like in a high school. She knew the chicken come home, slammed the door and sab four legs four minutes and then feel better. You and I with like oh crying doesnt solve every anything and that's provided

the difference between dealing with the stressed in your body versus dealing with a thing that cause to redress, because it's true that crying. Rarely solves the thing that caused your stress, bob boy, yeah. I can take your body all the way through complete structural fund cycle for those who people who are like who have never experienced the catharsis of like letting a big old cry, make you feel better as they say that it does the key to it is the non judgment moment, not feeding the crying more thoughts about the thing that negotiating the crying. So instead of ruminating on. I can't believe you know he's sending out or she did that you said all that stuff on a box to serve in the corner and instead for the moment, you just do what the stress itself by observing how hot do I feel I am crying how tense do? I feel you know how much fluids are leaking out of my face, while I'm cracked and you just notice without judging gosh- that's a lot

Fluids are yams, super tens or who I'm kind of right now and you just the crying go and its cycle in two stones on its own, and then you are in a better the only logical position in better shape to go deal The thing that caused the stress cause you're no longer. You know in the moment of having a stress response. What about laughter, again. It can't be like a gentle, you know a single tear as you gaze upon it. It has to with laughter it can't be that polite social laughter of ha- oh, yes, that's wonderful and I'm so glad you like that you know social lubricant kind of laughter that is most human laughter. It has to be the ridiculous like on controllable silly loud. when mounds laughter. That leaves you with like sore abdomen for an hour after it's over like if its uncontrollable, that's

your body has to go through this physical cycle to like that big old catharsis happen. Also, you can't laugh when your body feels like it's not safe so your body knows that it safe causes laughing. It's a two way: street situation, one of the things I love in the research is that if you can't access belly laughter right now, just reminiscing about a time you belly laughed, especially if you're talking to someone with whom you have shared, that kind of like embarrassing belly laughter you're in the middle of a stressful situation, and you just start reminiscing about that time that you laugh that way, that'll by its again, our imaginations are so powerful vat can make a shift in your physiology and be a cue to your brain, that your body is a safe place now and also listening to their people laughed the music recording industry, one of the very earliest kinds of records back a hundred years ago was Having records you could just by our black vinyl disk,

and put it on your record player, and it would just be people having this is a product people bought, because it was great and effective and there is definitely videos on youtube. Now, that's our version of it, but listening to others more my conversation with Amelia and Emily Nagasaki ran after this. This holiday season get yourself the gift. You really want a smile, you'll love order. Your impression kit today for only fourteen ninety five at bite, dot com but clear liners, our doktor directed and delivered to your door. Treatment costs, thousands than braces, plus they offer payment plans except eligible insurance, and you can pay with your age. I say, or essay with bite. You'll be smiling big at all the whole They parties this year get eighty percent off your

rushing get when you use code wondering at bite. Dotcom, that's be why t dot com be confident, be you with bite. Ok, so we can talk about a bunch of really universal hacks for getting us. The hacks probably demeans what we ve just talked about, but muted so the tired everywhere raised interventions. Thank you very much. I like your language. Do I want you to try to repeated that. We just talk about all that which are again anybody can access this. How were you are, as we have discussed, you know also trying to talk about the also. Probably these are not the appropriate words, but special challenges facing people who identify as women and you use a term in the book. the real enemy. Can you Fourth, on that a little bit here, we

hold the real enemy, because people don't like the word patriarchy, what That is because, in naming a thing and when you name it thing, it's real and that's a very, very scary and people want to deny no that's not a real thing, because if it were real, oh my that's really dangerous, but also there is the idea that when you know how to complete the stress response cycle, which is chapter one, when you know how to manage frustration which chapter two, we know how to connect for something larger than yourself and make meaning which is tapir three. These are all ways to win the game. So chapter four is called the rigged. came because we ve, given you ways to win the game, and now we tell you how the game is rigged. It's just that. You exist in the world. Your path through life has a certain number of obstacles in it? And if you are a woman You have more and different obstacles than if you are a man too,

those in power or resources or whatever you need just gone through day to day life, and it's not just the difference of masculinity or femininity, it's a difference of race. creed and all of the other intersections incase people don't recognize We take the language of the real enemy from games cattle. Ever is in this disturbing near future, recruited to play a game created by the day opium totalitarian government. There has children from all of the districts put into a glass and televised to fight each other turbid death. and at a certain point, can ever do not heroines. Mentor says to her cadmus Remember who the real enemy is, and she goes into the game and fighting for her life full fireflies, bow and arrow. Without she's ready to attack, she hears a rustle, she sees the guy and he says cabinets Remember the real enemy is

because the real enemy is not these other young people who are forced into this game. The enemy is the game itself, so She lifts her bow and arrow and pointed at the big glass dome and fights the system itself, and this is action based in research of martin seligman learned helplessness. When they did experiments about learned helplessness in humans, they would put the research subject in a room with a loud noise, and the subjects would try to turn off the noise and nothing they did with this like machine flicking switches and turning knobs, nothing would turn off the loud noise and they would get frustrated and angry and eventually they just like give up and sit there desolate sparing while this noise just took for their ears and that subject would leave the research study and when they would leave in their feelings of despairing and disheartened research,

insurers would say you know what backing was ranked and there nothing you could have done to win game. That was the purpose we just want to see like how long it took you to get despairing and as soon as the person knows. Oh, there was no way I could have won their spirits lifted and the despair right now. That's a very short term situation where you can have your despair evaporate because of a few minutes, you spent with a loud sound when you cry up living in an oppressive environment. It takes a lot more reassurance. Oh no, the game is rigged. There's no way you could win their telling you how you're supposed to go through life as though that's instructions to went no, no! No! No! No! Not the game is rigged. You're you can feel better because you're doing great considering the fact that you're not being told all the rules and that you're not I do have access to the things. Well actually allow you to win as far as the game is concerned.

Recognising the game is rigged is one thing, but I assume you don't want us to get into learned helplessness. So, how do you get out of learned helplessness? This is one of the places where the research may me little bananas because of that Research on loan helplessness, I'm sure you know began with animals. Specific dogs, for example, and I'll tell you what they decided. The intervention was for humans and then I'll tell you what the intervention was for dogs and you'll see where we give the advice that we do for humans. They suggested that cure for learned helplessness was a mindset, change, be optimistic Believe you have control what they did for the dogs, so the yoke to the dogs together, so that the dogs could knock it off from a shock and when they yolks of the dogs together, so they could not get away from the shock. The dogs went into learned helplessness. They were just collapse so that when were no longer yoked together and they could escape the shock. They didn't even try. So dogs are receiving. This uncomfortable button

dangerous shock and they're, not even trying to get up and avoid the uncomfortable stimulus, so what they did for the dogs. was dragged them over the threshold to the safety place and again dragged zapped rag. The dog over to safety, zapped rag. The dog over, safety show the dog that, by moving its body, it could rescue itself from the dead. what situation it didn't tell. The dog Have a different mindset learned how This is not learn. The way you learn. Algebra learned helplessness is learned by the nervous system, its learned in the body yeah technically algebra and also haven't wherever and whenever it, when I'm herbs- and you thought I mean it's learned in the body- it's based in reality- the dog really could not escape. That is not a delusion That is not a misunderstanding of the world that is based. True, based on its experience, So what we tell humans to do is to do a thing April, not surprising

listening to us that we were fairly distressed after the twenties external action. The next day Amelia built of flagstoned- half way from her driveway to her house, she a trench. She moves stone used her body to make a thing look, I did a thing. No, it didn't you. The outcome of the election. No, I didn't creates systemic change it showed look. I am not helpless. There is something I can do. I wrote a lot of things. I did my job. My job is inherently designed to contradict the dear that women's bodies do not belong to them. so by my continuing to do a thing. I proved to my body that I am not helpless. I do want to make clear about the kind of learning of learned helplessness. It's not like from tal, lobe, right verbal processing, like higher level cognition, is deep down

in the brain, stem learning a migdol, low level, understanding, that's the difference that I meant, but also the doing thing is what shows your nervous system, because you're nervous system learns. Oh, I can do a thing like digging the trench. I did that thing. I I did it. Through the moving instruct my nervous system, what to say beloved, whereas the solution for the the loud sound experiment of telling the person, the game is rigged. It is a frontal, though. cognition kind of solution, but it so is a relief to understand that You know when you evaluate what you have accomplished verses, what Why don't you accomplish? You are I told the parameters and that your evaluation needs to be taken that consideration the whole big picture here. didn't fail. That game was unwinnable, so are you saying,

two women there are at least two things you can do in the face of structural unfairness and injustice. One is to just know that it's unfair and unjust, and there's a relief in that? Yes, just knowing is intervention number one, it's real. If it feels like it's, you aren't that's cause it's too hard. The second Now that I'm hearing is there are areas in your life where you do have agency, including your front yard, or your backyard, wherever you can build a stone path and so do come The path is a matter for we know, but it's all the anger of the act, but it was also yell so doing something where you may not be dismantling the patriarchy, but you are doing something meaningful too, you, and that is a way to reduce the odds of burn out in the face of a job or not. We will have to be meaningful to you, because you're doing here is: you are, dealing with it, they may cause your stress you are making.

Your own body recognise that it is capable of accessing safe so that you are capable of dealing with the bigger picture, long term. You know smash the patriarchy stuff, so it can. literally make a meal complete. Any task do a thing and a thing Anything, that's not nothing. That is truly the best. Goofy is silliest sounding advice, you'll ever get. That's actually the best advice do a thing. Is anything, is not nothing because you're nervous system learns that it can get to safety access safety. Which allows you physically to be in a state of war less that allows you to change the world. I would add one other intervention, and none of these things are just for women. They work for everybody, in fact the more intersections of oppression. You experience the more important they are and the other

Is what a million I call the bubble of love where you create a pocket of connection with others who take your well being seriously as you take their well being where you do not subscribe to the rules The outside world, where who you are, is welcome and embraced precisely as you are with none of the nonsense expectations of like who the world says. You're supposed to be that bubble of love. beings as a man said, are not designed to do big things alone were designed to do them together. Look we did not start. This book Thinking we were gonna write the kind of book we rode away you were raised, as you know, a lot of it. Fuller raised in a sort of like new england, lock job puritanical, no feelings allowed kind of home feelings were not thing we were told and,

so we're reading. All this freely very serious, effective neuroscience like right at the edge of my ability to understand and look at a phd in this stuff to lessen over and over was love. It was turning toward each other, especially each other's difficult feelings. With kindness and compassion. It turns out the cure for burn out, isn't any of the stuff we have been talking about. They all help. They are all good, but the thing is self care is like the fallout shelter you building your basement cause. Apparently it's your job to protect yourself from nuclear war. I guess the cure for burn out cannot be self care. It must be all of us caring for each other.

so I would say the last most importance. Evidence based intervention is what we call the bubble of love. So what does that look like of? Can can hear people saying well her eye creators. This bubble, like I don't in a week's people, have fewer close friends these days than they have ever had yes and loneliness is so dangerous? Yes, what do I do to make a bubble of love? That's it can The sun, like a tall order, the people who are in the bubble are the people who care about your well being as much as you care about. There's who, like you, Feel a moral obligation to give, because back with human giver syndrome, giving is not the problem giving is not toxic or dangerous unless it is in the context of a human being. Who feels entitled and will sucker give her dry if you're surround?

did with givers, who all feel that everyone around them deserves as much love and care as they have to offer? Then nobody slips through the cracks, because once somebody starts, to burn out some one turns to them and says: oh, you need to go, take a hot bath and you know here's a beer, and I will quote dinner and after words, I will do the dishes and then we can all sit on the couch and talk about our feelings. That's what a bubble looks like, and yes, I absolutely agree that it is hard to find the people who are going to be in that bubble and the closeness of friends is. Not a thing. That's the same as it used to be, but I gotta tell you: when Emily I started writing this book. We didn't have a bubble or consider each other in a bubble.

You know that locked, John new england puritanical no feelings thing built up. Walls, people think of twins and sisters is like so close unbounded. We didn't have that, but we read all the science that said that this is how you do it. So we were, like. Oh research, says we should like. You know these sisters, and it turns out that when you're on one side of a wall and you're thinking, I could really use of a bubble around me. I wish there were somebody here and that person is on me Other side of the wall, there- probably thinking mature thinking, which is we should have this wall here. I wish somebody was in this bubble and because of the stigma again, motion and needing people and being too dependent on others. It takes such bravery too. You know to go, knock, knock, knock, you'll want to build a snowman and have somebody like- oh yes, I'll, the door to you. It takes such bravery to be that person,

But if you do you're gonna find out that the person on the other side is also feeling the same need, because it's a universal human need. So if you will be brave, ana and start now. Down the wall, god it's awkward! Oh my god. It was awkward, it's awkward, very uncomfortable, very awkward and difficult. Just talking about it is like. I can't believe we're acknowledging that we, oh, my god feelings trade like we're not like. We still have that stuff inside. I had to be perfect. I'm telling you if Amelia, and I can build a connection like this- really anyway. It's not that we have because find we find that we never ever added? We had to create it because the science told us too. and, if really can learn the skills to create it. Anybody can, if can do it. Anybody can just hang a lantern on something that you said there might have been explicit, but I at least heard it in the implicit ego

creating a love bubble doesn't just mean curating, the most loving people in your life. You actually have to participate in the soviets, work to be in the bubble, because you've got to care for these other people. Yes, but it's the people who would care for anyway? People are generally social member. The baby's liked about sums spontaneous pro social behaviour coming from eighteen month. Old these people have existed, world for eighteen months, and yet they are spontaneously prose social. That's how human beings are made to help each other to give to each other to care for each other, but natural, it's gonna come naturally to you when the external structure of being like

oh no, you have to be independent, lone cowboy and that's the ideal autonomy. You know. Development psychologically is a straight path from dependence to autonomy. That is not true. Nope the people are made. You know ninety per cent jump, ten percent be, hive species social species you're made to do this, so it's going to feel great and you're not going to have to push yourself to care for others. It's going to come. Naturally, loneliness is a big deal when The american households is a solo individual and, at the same time, there are a lot of households where, in the best case, narrow. You are locked in the house for days on end with your favorite people in the world, and you just cannot wait to get away from them. Please, how can I miss you? Have you never leave right deal about

It is the same thing as everything else in our bodies were designed to oscillate interconnection and back to autonomy and back to connection and back to autonomy. We're not designed to stay asleep. All the time were designed to oscillate inter rest and back to effort and interest and back to effort were designed to oscillate through the stress response like to relaxation back to the structural funds cycle to human beings. Wellness is not a state of being. It is a state of action. It's that freedom to move through the cycle was built into our mammalian bodies, and that includes into connection as deep as you are interested in going and out into autonomy, a separate as you're interested in going final question. Can you just plug your book in any other resources that are out there that people might want to look into after? Having listened to the book is burn out the secret to unlocking the stress cycle, and please

given that ministry then that bishop teresa, he will change your life when we say if we can do it literally, anyone can do it literally Anyone would be better than we argue. I have a measurable clinical. inability, a village to be aware of her own internal area, so yeah, and also difficult with social relationships and reciprocity and communication, like literally, measuring clinical deficit show. If I can make you didn't, do it really Britain, you do in their work and then chair and with all of us. So thank you both pleasure talk. You thank you. Thank you Thank you again to Amelia and Emily nagasaki and thanks to you for listening, we could not would not do this without you. Thank you must while everybody who worked so hard on the show ten percent happier is by justine, davy, Gabriel sacrament, Lauren smith and terror. Anderson DJ cashmeres, our senior producer worsen

schneider, mean, is our senior editor kevin, o connell, as our director of audio and post production and gimme regular is our executive? Is there a leash? Mackey leads our marketing, and tony magyar is our director of blood tests. Finally, nick thorburn of islands wrote our thing. If you like temper and have you- and I hope you do- you- can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondering plus a wondering app or on apple pie. Outcasts. Members, can listen ad free on amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling up a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant.