This is the ten percent happier podcast dan Harris gang we ve got a handful of seats left for the meditation party retreat that doing with the seven selassie and Jeff war on october thirteenth through fifteenth at omega, which is in rhyme back new york, almost sold out so move fast. There are plenty of ticket tower left for the live stream. If you can't make it in person, will put links in the shown up. All right now to today's episode perhaps never have I had a guest mess with me as much as this one in an awesome and hilarious way, of course, so who is this guest

remember those videos that went viral during the pandemic, where a female comedian lips linked to donald trump, her impression of the former president or maybe a better Where did describe it would be her interpretive dance seem to perfect capture, the inanity, the preening and the duplicity of the man the canadian in question with Sarah cooper. And those videos catapulted her to fame, which turned out to be complex. Did she suddenly got pretty much everything she thought she wanted professionally? She met her enter and heroes. You gotta netflix special, a role in a movie and then she somehow developed and ill advised crush on jerry seinfeld moron, in the interview. However, all this forced her to reckon with her complex past, which included growing up in america, jamaican rent, a complicated relationship to race, a pair of divorces and her time spent working at google, oh and also a fierce case.

Impostor syndrome, perfectionism and fear of failure. Sarah cooper has just written Whole memoir called foolish tales of us relation determining and humiliation. I really think it like this interview, so enjoy it one before we dive in here. Just quick heads up that this conversation includes mentions of so Oh- and there may be a few stray background. Noise is sorry about that. Remember if you want to learn how to apply the wisdom that you get right here on the ten percent happier podcast, but you don't have a meditation practice. Yet our can help. Obviously I'm a little biased but check out this I didn't review from a user via the app store crystal rights. I had been listening to the podcast for several years, but finally took the plunge on the app so glad I did. I thought I was fairly well versed in meditation, but I have

and so much more love the teachers and gentle teachings. Thank you crystal download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps and get started with trout, hello, it's a simple but powerful word. It should also be free rein, that's why text now, as the half, with always free phone service, stay connected with unlimited calling and texting by choosing a local phone number or bring your own with Now you have access to wireless coverage on the nations largest five g network, so you can type swipe. And hello undergo wherever you are done. today on the app store or google play and start connecting for free with text. Now this episode

brought to you by progressive most of you aren't just listening right now: you're driving cleaning and even exercising, but what, if you could be saving money by switching to progressive drivers who save by switching save nearly seven hundred dollars on average in auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Multitask right now quote today: a progressive dot com, progressive casualty, insurance company affiliates national average twelve months savings of six hundred. Ninety eight dollars by new customer survey to stay with progressive between june twenty, twenty one and may twenty twenty two potential savings will vary: discounts not available in all states of situations. Sarah cooper welcome to the show god. Thank you so much for having me it's great to be here. I appreciate that, although I do have two point: but you say in your book and I'm quoting here- I can't stand white guys with podcasts. So is this kind of? for both of us are you why? I ask those specifically if you were white and they were like we're not sure- and I like. Let me take a chance and

I guess I made a mistake, but you know what it's ok so dan I'll try I'll try not to be the typical. Why guides with a broadcast hamburger? I step over the line in some way. You'll just you know, please you have permission to tell me: okay, I'll, try to keep an eye out for that, but you seem like a very professional guy, so very professional. Yes, I try to be professional on my good days for sure. Are: let's talk in your book. So many fascinating things in there and I it's not. It doesn't take a super close reader to see that there are these huge themes of imposter syndrome and perfectionism and fear, failure that course, through the whole thing, will think of the roots of all that, for you, I recently learned actually at the roots of our competition and jealousy to be honest with you. I just did a play.

it was an off broadway play written by anna Ziegler directed by bury elsie, and it was a really great experience, but I'd never been in an ensemble like that before so was just five of us in this cast, and I didn't realize until the play was completely over how I was literally competing with every single person in that cast even seem partner. Who is playing my husband, I felt myself wanting to win the scene- you know wanting to be the one who was taking all the attention and that sort of competition at Google they want you to be compared. they call us individual contributors day stack rank us against each other, and so that is the goal for you to be competitive with each other as possible, and I thought I was a collaborative person, but it turns actually really wanted to? Just like be the star so because of that need to compete. I often told myself:

an introvert and told me of said. I had trouble speaking because- and I really now that it was because I was just scared that I wasn't good as everyone else, so I hold myself because I didn't want to lose I don't want to lose the competition in my head. I don't know it's kind of parliamentary pettus, go to have pasture syndrome now by taking yourself out of carbon Just cause you're scared to lose like not playing because you don't want to lose its just. Like my dad. My dad refuses to play word on me and my son stars- and I we all play word all we have a great but he won't even learn it because I think he's scared that he won't when every day spreading deep right, I think it is a man I'm impressed. Actually they were do you think you arrived at that insight, which one it's one of those many insights well, it sounds like you just did a play? And you realize, in the course of doing that, play that at the root of much of what's been

torturing you for the last couple of decades. Is this disease to win that you're stifling in some ways by refusing to play here, seems like a really big inside under did that combat therapy due to come about just cause you it hit you, I think a combination of therapy and edibles the honest with you, because I believe you laughing not making fun of you. Does it sound right was the very last night of the play. It was a rat party. We were all sitting around having pizza I'd abstained from edible throughout the whole show But that night was the first time I decided to take an audible. While I was around my classmates and a writer, and they said we're talking about different lines in the play in which ones got a laugh and which ones did well, and I felt it like coursing through my veins, how jealous I was of every single person in that cast. I wanted to be each of them and how I They were all better than me

when it really hit me, how compare If I am- and I was sort of treated like the goal- in child of my family and so, when I am in a group of people. It's either or for me to check out than to realize that I'm not the golden child of that group. You know what I mean and yeah that's through therapy lots of, there therapy I've been in therapy for three years. I actually just like my individual therapists, I'm gonna start group therapy in september, because now I feel like, pretty good one on one but being in a group. Speaking at a group taking up space is still pretty hard for me. You know, contrary to popular belief, contrary to what we see answered, media, where I really appreciate your saying about this competitive urge, there's this time. I heard recently cathartic normalization that if you are willing to

met really embarrassing shit. It's not always feel good for you, but is actually really good for anybody listening, because we're all fucked up in various ways and so but when I heard you say that my first thought was oh yeah, I do that too, and I remember going into couples counselling with my wife and thinking. I'm gonna win at this ship did just seems like a very human urge yeah, my ex husband- and I we admit it's me how does that? We would save things with things what happened throughout the week and we would like kind of bank them to pull them up, right moment in therapy so that we can do what you are saying. We could be the one who wine who was the right of therapy. It's fucked up. it is, but now I'm going to start doing that. Oh no, don't don't do that, don't see that, but then my ex and I we decided that we would not do that. That was the malta that conversation, but we're still divorce. can't give you any advice in that regard whatsoever

in terms of the roots of proof terrorism and depositors in europe and all the other stuff you talk about in the book. There is a great quote from a red you back to you here and you brought up your dad and earlier. So this will not be a coming out of nowhere. You saved my dad was absolutely terrified of any of us failing because he was walking the tightrope. He and all immigrants walk feeling one wrong move and it would be over. That's not environment conducive to taking chances in that terror lives inside of me too, but my opportunity to take risks is actually my parents legacy wow hoover, With that, the jar in that? I really am proud of coming to that sort of conclusion, which was interesting because, when my mom, about us coming here from jamaica. She said how hard it was to convince my dad to come, because he was so one wrong move and we would be harmless. You know it

then make enough money than we were. We would be living on the streets literally and that that was the sphere, and so that's how lives to our lives. That's how about a major began. Friends and family live their lives. Is that their the idea that you ve got you ve got one shot, you ve got one shot and if you mess it up, it's over ends. That's how my dad, that's how my dad it wasn't. My mom was the one who is more willing to take a chance for something better and to try things and then my dad's, who have had to come along with that and that's what That's where a lot of the fear and the perfectionism comes from, because you do feel like you know, Specially is an emigrant, especially as a woman that, if you, It's you, get another chance and also the idea. That there is one right answer and if you don't at that one right answer, then your screwed, when the beauty of so Much of what we do is that there isn't one right answer: there are so many different answers and that's the beauty of it and some people

I like to live in this black and white world and I think I was trying to fit myself into that black and white world, not realizing how much I love the grey and how much I love fantasy and imagine nation and play and who knows what's gonna happen, I love not knowing what's gonna happen, and yet I was just like now. control control control. It's interesting. my dad's lack of vulnerability, may let my dad's like the ability to take a chance and risk looking like a fool, is what kind, sad me in my corporate world and what really fails me when it came to being an entertainment. You know- and I am parents, and knowing that that lack of mobility is also inside me, really depressed me for awhile, because I was like if he and I are part of each other than how can I ever change and my therapist. one who really said sara just the fact that you're asking the question that means that you are on the right path and it's gonna. It's gonna happen said: don't force yourself in

some time line or tell yourself it's never gonna happen is that's just being defeatist. I went through a b period where I was really angry with my father and I really just wanted to not talk to him because didn't really want to be exposed to how hard it is for and you just really connect with me, but one site to love him like really love him really accept him for the way he is. Then I started to accept that part of me and that's when that part of me started to open up, so he he was kind of way. The wall that was between me and what I wanted, but that he also became the bridge, which is just a brilliant thing that I just came up with. That's pretty amazing, someday lays down talking I'm dazzling when I sang review known I'm sending I've. I'll do every step of the way and actually like a really the centre of the bulls. I first some stuff that I think about from myself a lot of

feeling a lot of shame or anger around these various parts. My personality that I know where I get it from you know. I have this penchant for anger and raised, and I know I get from my grandfather and I have this pension for, like fear and freaking out about money, which I know I get from a great grandfather on the others. The family were actually took his own life after you, like with the disgrace, lost all the family money and you know there's a way one likes it. One descended from you know: royal noble stock, but in my case you know it's like cowards and crooks. You know you can get angry about that or you can realise whether these are just aspects of my person quality of the human repertoire, really that only trying to help you in some way, but you don't need to take their shady advice all the time, and so you can kind of think about this. it's like a pretty sensible version of self love like just bracing these aspects of your own personality and of the people who came before you

then making a smarter decision than they may have made? yeah yeah, and I think the mistake that some people make is trying to reject those parts of themselves. And their family and trying to either pretend they don't exist or saying that that's not me. I don't know it's all these aspects of ourselves and we need to do just that then? I guess what I want to say is that there is this culture of like you know, avoid being triggered, and I I've gone now lake, actually, if your triggered like there's something there, and I wanted I wanna hear you know I m in my head when I get sugar and, unlike you what's going on there, why did that make me so angry like Sometimes I get a comment on social media. Like my social media comments, people are like, oh, you must get heckled. Oh, you must get trash all the time and it's like no. The meanest thing that people to me is: are you ok,

that is the meanest ass. The thing that makes me so angry- and I had to really be like. Why does that make me feel so bad? Why doesn't it so bad tat. Someone look at me and go. Are you ok you know? It's are you? Well, you should get up social me, here for a while anybody who expresses some kind of concern That there might be something wrong with me. It literally makes me so angry and now I've done some exploring, but it still is still. I haven't really. I feel like one that doesn't trigger. I'm me anymore, that'll be a good moment, but it still triggers me so that once enough here is it because you don't somewhat. you suspect that, maybe you aren't doing ok, it trying to trigger me right now Well, I am what I was so yeah telling me that maybe I'm not okay! I did tat do you know my uncas said maybe,

ok, maybe that's the problem. Sarah, ok, ok, so yeah! So so what if I'm not okay, so why Is that a problem Maybe I'm not? Okay, their problem with, this being! Ok! Even me, you know. but I take it as oh there's something wrong with you like immediately there's something wrong with you now I always the comment that people leave and I think how that comment, make me feel is how that person is feeling. So when someone says Are you ok that purse this feeling like there's something wrong with that. So how do you not feel like there's something wrong with you? You get someone to day, you're perfect, just the way you are so sometimes when somebody comments. Are you ok, I'll respond with your perfect just the way you are because,

it's getting all the steps and I'm just trying to get them to get what they need from my page. Instead of having it. me and then I have to tell myself he sarah you're perfect just the way you are so that I won't feel like something wrong with me. Because of that comment. Because of your comment, have you ever heard that zen expression or it's an expression from asean teacher who said to his students you're all perfect, exactly as you are, and you can? he's a little improvement. No, I haven't heard that that it sounds passiveaggressive. I think it sounds which is that we were all like pretty good good as a friend of mine says, but that doesn't mean we can't get better that doesn't mean there isn't room for growth, but if somebody point something some fault out to it doesn't mean you have to go right to the story of on irretrievably broke it yeah yeah, that's share! That's a good plants but I was thinking about that. I love what you said about being triggered in Iraq.

In mind. Another expression I dont know said this, but something like if its hysterical, it's his store, so like if you are really overreacting or just reacting, really really strongly to something. It's probably because of something in your past That is a good one. I like sayings like that. these. They seem really clever if you're hysterical, its historical, has pretty cool, like that best case scenario, if its mellifluous and use in this case. I actually think it is useful because when I notice myself I'm trying to think of what people say to me that makes me feel like for example, like if I get some email indicating that some aspect of my business is not doing well, I can go right to macgregor, father now and I'm gonna have to kill myself, which I don't really think, but some aspect of my condition.

come out roaring to life. When I get any negative data point- and I think that's just a great example of oh yeah, something is hysterical here and it is therefore is probably historical. Yeah yeah. Is it like a fear of failure yeah, not unlike your dad, I mean- and it's interesting because I have all the privileges you know like all of them loving family, for you single, I'm married after all, What you are you watch me with all the frivolous come on I'll, see now: privileges, high privilege, and now it's just getting a privilege is not high yeah, you know privilege, I don't know your ear, you have privileged sorry. I interrupted you I was just gonna say, unlike your dad, I come from several generations of people lived in country. I don't. I don't have as much objective reason to believe that

one wrong move- and I get you know, I'm on the street, and yet I still have that feeling you too feeling really a hundred percent? Absolute ha. That's interesting. I guess this is interesting thing because I, I assumed being straightway guy you know you can make many mistakes and you're probably get another chance, but you don't feel that way is what you're saying exactly I know it and I see the unfairness yeah, but I don't feel that way, yeah yeah, interesting So even if I was a street like eyes still would be the same person. Probably I mean I have to imagine- and this is just to take an empathic leap on my part that it would be way more difficult if, in fact, you didn't have all the privilege and that you were enduring

macro and micro aggressions that I don't have to endure. In fact, you know getting back to impostor syndrome, there's a pretty good critique of impostor syndrome that its oftener thing that white women talk. but a lot of women of color are now coming out in saying. Well, no it my problem is an impostor syndrome. My problem is prejudice, yeah yeah That's true I mean I haven't heard back, but am I mean I have experienced some prejudice? I think, but I think, because my parents where light from jamaica. I a kind of right about this in the book that I didn't even know what I was for a while in time I think I thought I was white. My best friend stacy was jewish. She still is I didn't actually know until I was eight years old that I was black when I went home and I said to my parents, like- I think, I'm there are like nor, where jimmy a gun in our heads, I thought I was like because it

make its majority black country and so like you, don't really get asked about raised there, and so I feel like I just have a lot of, a lot of weight energy. If that makes sense, here. You really liked the movie allow ireland, for example, I've seen it three times. I think it's depiction of jazz is spot. on. I've, never listened to jazz, but I'm pretty sure. Movie accurate. I've thought about starting a pike ass. Just like you know, you look like you're rolling in dough, so it seems like it would be fun. To do that. Yeah I had to make a nanny growing up. She was family and lots of families here in brooklyn have to make an nannies. So it's kind of interest The point is really, though, that what I was trying to say is our food. fear of failure is sort of.

A reversal, regardless of how much privilege we might have. So you privileged as you are, are scared of failure and other people may be without the privilege are also very scared of failure. I don't know I was walking in brooklyn and there was this really long line, and it was the government benefit line. is very, very long, and I thought to myself. I think I would feel- shamed. If I had to stand in that light so, I had to stand in the way because I really wanted to confront that feeling size, I got in line, and I ended up strike of this conversation the woman in front of me, and it was just like I just really interesting to think about how are always sort of comparing ourselves to other people

and I always really hate lines, and I think the reason I hate lines is because there is that sort of like you're ahead of me, you're behind me. You know, there's people getting getting in right now and I hate them and those people who just got in line and their such suckers. You know, and so like this the idea of standing in a line and having that comparison be so apparent, and the person behind you always feels like they're, too close to you and the person ahead of you just feels like they're, not taking this seriously Is there not moving up as soon as a person in front moves up here Those are all this tension in a line that I feel I feel like in life. I bet you just goes back to the competition of just like now. I just I I read something today, like you shouldn't, you can compare yourself, but you shouldn't be envious and I agree like jealousy bad, but the comparison and wanting to like I'm looking at you and your pie, custom like oh, that would be cool to have something like that. I think that aspirational comparison,

it's ok to have, but at the same time I also just wish there were so many things like privilege that don't like created these divisions between us, I'm curious, like our you regularly trying to put yourself in situations where just comfort is unavoidable. I guess salad it has been my whole thing I mean I know step. comedy is very uncomfortable for me. Still, I've been doing it for thirteen, is now. I'm still get very scared. When I get up there, you know talking to you with your perfect voice in your perfect hair, is also very intimidating. Putting this book out, I'm scared to death, I'm scared to death about this book and I I didn't even realise that until the other day I was just like, I am filled with panic over this book and I am just covering it up with, like posting on social media, do not I mean I'm just like, but inside there's this panic of, oh god, I've got two weeks it's coming

Are people going to like it? Does it suck? today. I was starting to get angry that, like it's a really great book, but people just won't know how great sin I was telling myself all of these things about how it's going to fail and so it's so hard to flip that and be like no I'm proud of it, and it's going to find the people that it should find. You know just let it go. I've been in that situation a couple of times. I can tell you what has been useful for me. Do you think that would be worth doing? Please any help would be great. I'm not saying this is some sort of panacea but having put out a couple books- and this is way easier to say than to do- but this idea that comes out of buddhism, of non attachment to results, meaning you can work your ass off on the books of on promoting on social media on every white guys, podcast all that stuff and we live in a totally

and tropic chaotic universe and you cannot control thou come, and so, if you can just put up giving in to the cause is without worrying about the effects yeah than that. is, if you can remember to do it a route to the thing decided here that sounds smart. It sounds smart. How old are you fifty to fifty two? That's a good age. How do you forty five year, but also good, it. Is that what I'm supposed to say? Are you only saying what you're supposed to say that cause that wouldn't be very good conversation, no known yeah, this fifty two is a good age. I think forty five is a good age. I think what's what's worst age, you think I was not super api am at. Like thirteen okay, yeah, I'm going to say twenty six really. Why

I was just. I was so amazing and I had no idea how amazing I was, and so when I look back at the things that I was writing, then I was like oh wow. This is, really good, and I was really onto something I kept quitting. I kept giving up on myself so that pisses me off. Are you think they're changes a puberty puberty? I had a big wall of like, and I really love this term but our use it anyway, like toxic masculinity, I was a pretty sensitive boy perform and plays, and then I got it. Your high and got bullied and add to like or felt I had to like armor up in order to survive wow. So you became a bully I was too small to actually be a bully, but I definitely made the boys my friends, see we're like the concealing airy. it's a little bit of that's that's, giving more class and glamour than it deserves, but maybe kiss ass, ok or a kiss ass, oh wow. So how did you

How did you stop doing that because it seems like that would be fruitful. Take has asked I've kissed a lot ass in my life and it's always worked out they work out? An that's unfortunate in some ways it says much the ass kissing, it's the enough antiquity, the rightness, the falseness that's the problem and the armor, you know pretending that there's one way in my case to be a man, and it's just taken me a long time to even so, to learn that, and it's not that hard for me to get back into the air conditioning cousin run so deep, so daily practice that you have to do in order to keep the armor off yet meditation therapy kind of get enough sleep making sure I'm super deliberate, like working on the relationships in my life got a little tattoo recently, to remind me to do things not just for my own selfish purposes, so I hear tax, you literally says: don't do things for my own selfish purposes, it a buddhist phrase and it says for the benefit of all beings, but its ion.

I made an acronym out of it and it's right near where I usually wear my watch, and so I look down here a lot and it's reminder of like yeah pull your head out of your ass, don't be wow! How yourself all the time I'm not translates never appropriate to to have selfish motivations, but I've known For me, that can be overwhelming. That is incredible that you tattoo, that on your nearby that is incredible- mean that no that just like I've, never gonna tat you, because I just feel like the commitment like I don't know, I can't think of anything that I would just connect to enough to on my body per like permanently so that just when did you get that a couple of weeks ago. Actually my wife and I went and got tattoos together and I was never it had two because I was tired. I go at some artists, dick thing that I'm gonna fall out of love with them. A lot of my he's in high school, get stupid like cartoon characters tattooed on themselves, which I feel bad for them about, but

I'm really into meditation and the dogma, which is just another way of saying buddhism and the biggest obstacle is that you just forgets. If you get triggering you forget, and so can you gotta do everything you can to remember not to be a deck to yourself and others. well and so tattoos like a reasonable next step that smart I think my thing is that I get into robot mode. It's not that I but I m here it is a bit of an hour. I guess robot mode is my armors like getting into a script where I feel like: I'm not really connected to what I'm saying and I'm not really connecting to the other person and Sometimes, when I get into it, it's like an accident that I started that I can't stop using and I hate it because I feel that part of me- that's watching me and I see myself and yet I have no control and I can't stop the tree. and it's so frustrating. I hate that so much when you get into that performative

What do you think it is that put you in the mode cash such a good question. It's the theme back honestly, the first time ever really thought about it or answered it, but it's like I'm addicted. As someone nodding at me, thing: that's what it is. You know what I mean and so I'm just going for the nod, and if so did I say so placating statement universal whatever that someone can just go? Of course you know, because their state it's you can't not nod to, and I feel like that's the performative its meeting something you can not not so I think, that's what it is. I I see the nodding and I'm like oh keep going this way. I keep going this way, even though the part of is like no stop. You don't want to talk about that. You tell a story like you know like be open revolt, both share something that you ve never seen before. I like that's what you Do you want to do this bullshit? You know. I think this makes me

strain on do old patterns patterns. It takes a long time and like I would hate for you to be yourself up the next time. You noticed yourself doing this, which may have an in this very covers If some conversation later today, I think the goal is to like do it less frequently and catch yourself earlier. That makes sense yeah. Do it less frequently and catch myself earlier yeah I was going to make a joke, making them into it and buddhists tat. You want my back, then I decided not to date. and I put it on my back and also its buddhists, so I can't read it When are we going to do? oh, my god, you know it The now I will say journal alive- and I notice that sometimes, if I'm speaking I fight to myself. What would I write about this moment right now, like that immediately gets me to the real thing that's going on, like what would I write about this moment

like, I think, they're really likes me. It's ok! three things to say. First of all, I really love that's a great hack. You asked before what practices I have for breaking out of my nonsense. You just gave a great one for yourself. The second thing is you're. Actually right. I do really like you, and the third thing to say is speaking of your writing. You have. It is very hard to be funny on the page, and you really can do it. Thank you so much. That means the world to hear that's all I wanted is like you. I hope you get something out of, but if you last that's what makes me the happiest. So I really appreciate that, and I bet letting yourself

journal without expecting anything to come for say of the work, I'm just guessing here- that some of the greatest parts of the book come from those journaling sessions. Yes, very much so you much so, and it's really there's always connections that I started to make between things I had never made before and in particular there is a chapter called pick me pick me, which is about being a pick me girl, which, if you don't want to pick me girl as its basically a girl, will literally do anything for you to pick a ban. Might just pick me and there's a very famous speech and grace anatomy that meredith does where she's just like choose me. Love me pick me and it's just like those begging that we sort of like we sort of that. That was a good thing. At one point and now women are like now If you don't want me, go away like an, I think, that's a little bit of a better attitude, daft, but back this was

on the time that I was like early thirties and I was on that of a commercial, whereas an extra and If you want to know anything about me, it's just like. If I do anything I'm going to like try to be the best at it, that's just my competitive nature, I'm just going to try to absolutely be the best. So I wanted to be the the best extra I could be, but down there with all these other extras and come down and pick a few people and then leave and time they wanted to pick someone. I would like perk up and I will try to look like. Ok It's here. I am pick me pick me and it was exactly that pick me pick me Attitude that made them never pick me and then I ended up sort of falling in love at first with the director of this commercial and then became a pick me girl for him. Where I would literally do anything for him to just say: yes I'll, be your boy frightened. You know. That's all I wanted him to say, but I would I was degrading myself for the sky,

I was a pick me girl on this- that I was a pick me girl in that relationship at the connection that I didn't make till later. Even was that this conversation with him in bad, which I turned into a script witches in the book as well, which is that I, asked him, you know when you go to the grocery store and you're picking apples, you do you think the apples are saying pick me took me, or they are the apple saying, don't make me don't pick me and his response was both The apples better feeling really good about where they are in life are saying, don't make me cause they're happy where they are and the apples tat are the bravest and looking for an ego, burst or saint pick me pick me because they they need that egoist and I was like wow like that's the whole chain. During, I hadn't made that connection before so it's like it and that's me sickly. My whole life is like making all these connections between my writing in being able to see myself in the writing and then being able to evolve through what I see in the connections that I can make you feel like you still have the

me, energy, on the regular. Now oh gosh. Well, I'm sorry! to do so in our views, and I had a few yesterday and I have this one and. I'm always jealous of people who can get on these interviews and just feel I can whatever I'm here. Who cares in out, but I I don't know I it's like a to find a balance between the pick me which is like you, minimizing your true self in some way like not being authentic and order should be light, and my true five, which is a like inside I'm a puppy dog like I just I want to be your friend you know like I want to get to know you like. That's why I really am. sometimes I think that that fears into the pick me sort of situation and so kind of it, the type that I've been walking here today. That's so interesting I for what it's worth we're, not even in the same room with the five I get is

Golden retriever in the positive sense, not okay, eighty energy, suck, vampire, okay, good! Thank you so much, and so that the energy sector, much more with Sarah cooper right after this what I like, I like the feeling of walking in my closet and yes, we live in the suburbs, moved out of the city, so I can actually walk into my closet should say our closet, because I have vastly space and said closet fetnah, my spouse anyway. What I learned, is walking into the closet and seeing a bunch of clothes that actually want to wear quince creates timeless classics that never go out of style like one hundred percent mongolian cashmere sweaters fifty dollars suede and leather jackets and silk blouses and dresses. Here's the kicker all

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and try one of our hundreds of guided meditations, I'm going to impose some discipline on myself because I came into this interview as I always do with like a whole plan of things. I want to talk about and I try to let the plane, at the window if I've gotta get two's going in very directions and with you you're taking us in somebody interesting directions and I'm just going with it. However, I don't want to lose the thread of your book, so I'm going It's a bunch of things that happened in the early part of the book and alive. You comment on whatever you want to comment on. The first part of the book is called simulation, and you talk about some of the things you ve already mentioned here, how you wrestled with blackness there's a great quote, even in the vast spectrum of blackness, I dont know where I am sometimes I can't tell if I'm a black woman or white dude name, craig, which I think it's hilarious. then later in the book you move into a second called determination where talk about getting married in divorce twice. So that's a lot to throw at you, but

what in there- and you want to pick a pardon and talk about. How can you picks up? Thank you for your ticket. You pick something I'm happy to talk about any of it. Well, let's talk about the divorces. great away describe it in the book is that you felt a lot, shame I like it was a failure in some way to get divorced twice. Is that correct? And how do you feel about it now? So one thing I noticed is that I have been divorced twice and thank you so much for mentioning that many times over and over again for everyone sitting here at the first few times, but I think it's very topical, because this is the year of divorce tat. Did you know that I did not know that everyone is breaking out this year. currently a lot of their been a lot of break up this year. I do not looked at google news know whose broken up I want to name names but Joe Jonas

Well, one! That's just why I, but there's there's it just. It seems to be a big theme. This year is sort of divorces and breaking up and the thing about divorce is. I did feel very much like a failure. After my first marriage, which was a quickie marriage, a guy I met in my acting class, which was the first red flag and I was only married to him for three months. I was very ashamed of that. It was me trying to not be teachers Sarah with me trying to do something crazy that nobody saw coming, and that was definitely it my second marriage I realize. how much of a reaction that marriage was to the first marriage and the fact that the first mary I saw a failure where I did everything wrong, and so the second marriage had to do everything right had to work perfectly had to get married on the beach where we met we had They have the white weddings had to have the bridesmaids with the matching dresses

it had to have the ring from tiffany had to buy a place within the first year had to try to have a kid like you know me like. I just wanted to do everything right to erase the fact that I thought that that first marriage was I failure and a mistake. So, but then, when comes to leaving the marriage that I just left a few years ago. I thank god for marriage. That was the hardest. It's it's it's like my proudest moment. It's my weakest moment. It's also my most powerful moment. Turning to my husband and saying I'm done like was so hard and I almost heard the words coming out of my mouth- and I didn't even know that I was saying man kind of moment- ends on a train to go stay with my sister right after that happened, and I was honest train and the guy next to me was watching.

movie without headphones, and I had trouble asking him to turn down his move. or put on headphones, but I had just asked for a divorce like so you know what I mean like it was It was a wild day, but it was just like divorce in turn, of like being able to say this. Isn't work and like make that choice is so hard and I'm so glad that we have that that choice to make its choice. You should never have to make if you don't want to buy their so many people who are in relationships where there being completely stifled and I'm sure that's not your situation, nine on your end powerfully but if it wise, thank god for you, no second chances. Third chances. If you well, are you interested in getting married again. Is this proposal?

I knew that I don't think I am actually described my perfect relationship yesterday, which is he's like fifty two. He hasn't, nope skills. I don't think I've had a guest in a while with me this much, but I really appreciate it. I just want to say that I know but like around fifty, but I just don't think I want to get married again. I think that I would like once a month we hang out. In some random city and have some random adventure, and then we say goodbye and then we go live our separate lives for the rest of the month, like that to me like two very independent people, who have great for years that they are in love with their careers and then just like. Have this in a sort of companionship. I think that's my ideal situation, I dont idle myself ever like living with anyone. Again I love living by myself. So much so there

How many things that I dont think I would ever give up again for a marriage. So in the book you, talk a lot about your childhood and then your personal life and then there's a big section called humiliation about your career. He tried a lot of stuff. You mentioned Google and then you, I'm a writer slashed comedian, but it seems like it was the trump videos that really had put everything. steroids. Can you like? How did you come up with the idea to do that? And were you surprised by the response, yeah I mean I was very surprised by the response. I mean the way that I came up with that was just playing around until at which my nephew showed me. You know they showed their old aunt. Sarah tick tock and I was just playing around with it because it was covert. I couldn't get on stage, and the first quote that I heard him say was some reporter asked him how he was going to

echo a problem and he said well we're going to form a committee yeah, we'll call it a committee and it's gonna be really good committee and we're going to solve problems and make decisions and me he was basically just acting as if he came up with the dear fur committee like right then, and there we we all knew that he didn't really know what he was talking about and that was kind of an open secret that even a secret but the thing that was frozen it was all the people around him not at him you know so there. We go back to the nodding. I was jealous of all the nodding here, getting for saying you're, not and that's been. My whole thing is just like people who get nods for no effort. When I put in so much effort to get the knives- and I don't get the knights and So I said to myself

I wanna be that guy. I wouldn't the guy who's, just saying a bunch of bullshit and like everybody's, so treating him like he's, you know god's gift to the world and So when I lips think that I was just like I'm in a meeting on one of the guys from google at a meeting just like you know whatever and that's it. As you know, I wasn't doing an impression of trump. I wasn't trying to be trump. That's why I always got so confused when people were like. Oh, he should put on and where the time I know this is about. If I did that, that's in them, way of this. One is a person who like me was that I'm not trying to me and I'm trying to be myself If you guys, we let me get away with that shit which you would never so, and it was kind of fine. I was like. Oh, this is fine. Look at me like just now in it, and it was really the thing just hearing his ways coming out of my mouth, so tat was kind of cool, but I I was gonna stop do,

Yet I wasn't gonna even do it anymore, because if it didn't go viral that first committee Clifton go viral then there was the inner lysol conference where he suggested the body with the very power The light and putting lay solid your veins- and it was just this clear- I I couldn't ignore. Really my my husband at the time was just like sarah. You got to see this and I was like okay, and so I just I did it. I dunno. I thought it would be fine. I didn't think it would go crazy viral, but then it had a million views within a night and again, I wasn't gonna make anymore videos after that I was gonna, move on to something else, but then he just kept saying things as the and then it got more and more serious, it got more refreshing. Because when the situation get so dire and you have someone who clearly has no competence it gets even more frustrating. I couldn't help myself, but to keep sort of making

and then, when he started to really take off and get shared by all of these huge people. In that I was able you get an agent which is something I've been trying to do for years, and I couldn't do. I was able to sell my books in order to turn them into tv shows which thing I've been trying to do and I couldn't do like literally I got handed the keys to hollywood like immediately at night. we did not see that coming. I didn't expect it at all. It's interesting, you mean this is a thing. You hear a lot, but in the book you describe it, like everything you always wanted, and also it was an entirely pleasant where the unpleasant part of it was there It goes back to my dad actually allotted dad's love, my videos and notice that a lot of my hugh, appeals to dat's and wondering why that was and then I remembered that in family? If I could make my dad laugh, then everybody was happy. He was sort of you know

Very authoritarian kind of guy do, as I say, not as I do and scare You know I was scared of him. I think we were all a little scared of him like when he came home from work. We would hide, we would make sure the place was clean. then we'd high so one- wanted daddy to be upset. No one ever want to die. We have said so. I got very good at making him. ass in a lot of times that was like sort of like in a book funded him in a way that he liked and thought was funny and fine, and so that's the thing that I thought that that was kind of cool when I first thought about it, but then I thought wait. A second does that mean that my humor comes from fear from a fear of something like I have it's, not that I'm enjoying making a joke. It's that I two or else I will be punished or like we will have a bad night at home. So when jerry seinfeld shared my and he talked about in your times. He specifically said she

trying to be funny. It just looks like something she has to do and in us When interviewed my ex husband about my videos and heat, about how people would request videos for me, and I was sort of deliver like I was delivering soup for someone like. I was like it was an obligation, and so I think when something is an obligation, it becomes less fine and I was, by the end, we're spending all day twelve hours on a video just because it had to be right, and I had to get it right and all of this stuff, and so that became a lot of pressure. And then you know me, all of my heroes within the space of a few months, when I dont think I even really knew why was there something and entertain this is called the general meeting which is like attack. We have specific me things with an agenda and like this is what we need to get done. But an enhanced Would they have general meetings where you just supposed to be yourself and, like you know, let the person know who you are and

I was a mirage I was sort of there is. There is a representative showing up, but I didn't know who I was I I saw this quote from Matthew, mackay, the other day when he was talking about his early meetings in hollywood. When any he said you know, I was a dog united, haven't you, opinions. I did not my style was I didn't like how could I have been interest in those meetings when I wasn't I was just trying to please I wasn't showing up. I was really invested. I wasn't putting myself into the actual meetings. and that's what I was doing. I got the biggest opportunity I've ever gotten, and I I looked back something can I say I wasn't ready in on me I know now it's part of my story and like it's I had to be here to get there had to be there to get here whatever it is but like. If known like exactly who I was exactly what my taste was. I think I could have handled it I better in the book you talk about how it's nice

to be in Hell is that I am making an appropriate connection here. Yeah absolutely I mean that was that was a song that federalism for the netflix, how many specialist erika grabbing sign and he he wrote that song and its name section is humiliation and you think to yourself it's awful to be humiliated, but like it's awful, but also great, the fifth also like so that's what it's I used to be and how is it like? Actually in open? not a movie sat being on any kind of situation where you feel like you're you're, not good enough or you feel scared that you're going to make an ass of yourself. It's awful, but it's also the greatest opportunity and it's the most fun you know, I think, about every cent I've ever been on and I miss all of them I wish I was back on all of them because it is so exciting, but it's the key is to not let part of you, which is my dad part of me that says, oh god

you're gonna, say something wrong. You gonna do something wrong, not let that steel, the joy of being there, you know even when it is humiliating. It is still the best thing in the world. It was like the jerry seinfeld, because he's plays a big role in the world you went and worked on a movie that he rode and your relation. with him sounds pretty complex and at one point you said thought you were falling in love with him. What was that about? there is a moment's on salmon. First of all, with such a dream to be able to work with him- and you know it's not opportunity that I ever in a million years thought I would get like jerry seinfeld. He made great show he tours. He writes comedy. He doesn't do movies he's done be movie, but he he wrote this joke about a pattern, ten years ago and is

partners. In writing. Partners came to him that we had this idea from movie and he decided to take this chance to make a movie and at sixty years old, which is so great in I just think that so great to direct it to write it to storing it, and there is a part for his assistant in the movie ends. I get that part which is absolute. We just pinch me. How could this possibly happen? not to mention the fact that the movie takes place in the sixties. So it's all madman I love mad man. It's the humour of signs which I seen every episode like four times, and it's about fear which I love so like it's just everything that I ever wanted, but I you know I had this sort of. He started this guy you know, and it was very hard for me like just really just like be myself around him right, ride. I tried very hard- and I just loved, watching him on that, because he was so simple

It's like he's. Just the same guy, no matter what like he's justice, he is seinfeld all the time and I remember this moment on sat where it was very pleasant. Sat except for this one tiny little moment where somebody kind of got upset and like everything got, very, very quiet and very, very anxious onset just for a moment and jerry We immediately just step sand and goes guy these guys guys, let's just keep it com we're making a movie about a pop tart. and immediately everyone last two hundred, People laugh seven words and he made all of them laugh and relax, and I saw comparison honestly between the way dad held power through a sort of yelling cursing and the way jerry held power through.

Making everyone feel like it's. Ok, it's ok. They die to take the so seriously and we're all ok now and with great power comes great. Fusing feelings like I write a book, which is basically that I convinced myself tat. I was completely. In love with him and why I say the book is about some dad issues because now. I think the the rate thing is that for the for the first time I wasn't attracted to a narcissistic quality. I was attracted to a polity that was actually a great quality to be attracted to someone who can just make you feel, calm and save, but it should have been with jerry side up. Who is married me three kids. I just got here But like I in. I talk to my therapist about it. I felt like it was basically just some very confusing,

this the nations or something I don't even know what to call it, but it happens, and I will say that writing this was very hard and one of the hardest things about writing this book. Was sending that chapter to him to get here to say, it was ok so like hitting sand on that email. I needed someone to be with me when I said, and I needed someone to be with me when he wrote back like that, was really really hard and I'm totally cool. Now, though, if I hung out with him now, like I be so cool is what I'm saying I guess that's True, as we know it's totally true I was cool when you when he read it, I was about it he's the most generous, kind of man and the whole world. He wrote back and said

sarah! You are a delightful, complicated human being, and he said, of course he was fine with what I wrote in it and he let me use delightful complicated. As a I mean, he really is just incredibly kind and generous- and I don't know just a of a human being. I believe it but I do want to go back to the moment where he makes every laugh during that tens an answer because I had it in front of me and a matter. I wanted to ask you about it, because I see two things simultaneously in that moment, both of them have been big thing, in this conversation in our big themes in your book, one of them Is that this guy has a kind of, self assuredness self confidence, doth antics, the genuineness that you know he can be same jerry, whether he's writing acting directing whatever it is. There.

Get into the situation where a black has to do what most of us have to do, which is ask ourselves. Why were being so vague around here? Other thing, though, is the power and the bureau for lack of a better terms. privilege and yes, he wields it in a different way than your dad, but not everybody could the standing to command a room in that way, and there are some there are things about his chromosomes structure and our culture that allow him to do that, and so they just seems like a rich moment. It is a very which moment, but I will say this. I've heard horror stories about directors, because when you have a fit Your baby, if its view written indirect, is your baby, and I even feel that if I was directing a movie- and it was very important to me- I think I might lose it as as much as I want to be a nice person. You know so like I think

to realize how it's important to make a good film, but also realise how it's important to have a good time. Making that foam, like is so I dont know, is- is really cool. I think that even sometimes people take advantage of their privilege to make people feel really small, and to take advantage of your privilege to make people feel huge. Is amazing yeah me so different from from Tromp yes, example is also an older white straight male. Yes and mean it's hard to miss the fact that europe, seeing very clearly that older white straight males myself among them. Have this do on earned position of power. Yes, and we need wheels. differently, but it's still a fact,

thirdly- and I think that's the other thing that I do want to say, is that I realized at the end of this book how much I about men and much. I wrote about power. Four men who I looked up to? Why was that at the who I wanted to be near next. You and I realized how much that had to do with not feel powerful on my own, and it wasn't so recently that I thought about that. Mom of jerry on the set where he like made, everybody feel ok again and part of the aid Action was the fact that that was my role in my family. I may everybody laughed like that. I is detention in my family, and so I was kind of seeing my son send him in a way to do so. It was like I'm really hot for that actor, but also for myself, so Yeah, I mean- and I also think you know it just gets confusing

two, when something really light turns you on, and everything about that set turned beyond like everything to everybody: the cast, the crew, my costume hair. Everything just turned me on. It was just a very intense, intense situation, so I think that contributed to it as well. One last question about jerry. He sounds like he inspired the title of the book foolish here I was sitting around with him between tax and it was just the sort of like magical day and we having a great time- and you know Instead, I was very scared of making mistakes mistake and jerry said now. This the business of being embarrassed- and I just really hit me like oh my god, I'm terrified of embarrassing myself and I saw that action

the journal that I wrote after I left Google, which is also in the book of how I didn't want to look like an idiot for leaving? I didn't want people to look at me like I'm, just look at her. She tried to make it and she failed, and so much of being embarrass is deciding that other people think you suck its putting yourself and someone else head and deciding they have decided that you're not worthy, but you have no idea where people are thinking. I had this realization that I'm the only one who can make myself feel embarrassed, no one Make no one has that power over me. It's only me telling myself that other people think I suck that's where all my embarrassment comes from. And that fear of embarrassment stopped me from taking a lotta chances that I wished I had taken. I realized also the connection between taking a small chance, like if you're in a conversation, and you think about saying something like you want to say something, and you say to yourself: no, I want to say that you might think of

as a really small moment, but you ve just rejected yourself, a tiny bit in that moment and those tiny rejection. I can add up over time, give up on yourself when you abandoned yourself like that, even in the tiny moments it can lead to, your abandonment, and so now I try, even with the smallest smallest things too, do not abandon myself and the more that I learn how to not abandon what I really one, who I really am. Then it gets easier to do that over time and in bigger spaces. Then it's amazing. We back with more sarah cooper after this.

at enterprise. We know you're constantly on the move. Getting this thanks, fixing Matt you reach a destination and planets onto the next and when life is moving at the speed of well life enterprises right there with you around the corner and around the globe, we'll keep you moving forward. Enterprise for lives and drive, hey it's garage here and all my podcast. How I built this. I talked to the founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies like starbucks, google and patagonia, and together we discuss all of the skills. These leaders have learned along the way like how to solve complex problems and had a lead through uncertainty, but how I built this, isn't your average business parks,

by tapping into the hearts and minds of entrepreneurs. We better understand how they use adversities fuel to help them persevere through challenges are overcome, setbacks and achieve their goals, and these aren't just conversation. it's about the past my guests, and I also explore the novel and world changing ideas they're pursuing right now. The goal of our podcast is to inspire you to approach. Challenges like there are opportunities, just like an entrepreneur so check out how I built this on amazon, music or wherever you get your part guests? This is the last quote from the book at every back you, but it seems to kind of some up one. the core learning the quotas. If you're out there thinking about every mistake, you ve ever made, don't you did it again? The way you were supposed to get excited about what you'll try next time, because there will be a next time. Yes, it was so

for I fortuitous that I came across this one and just crying alone on a bench most coming home from doing a set the neighbourhood and I had to sit down and ask her. She was okay and she said literally I'm just sitting here. Thinking about every mistake I bet were made, and I realized that's what I did. I was punishing myself over and over and over again from mistakes that I thought I had made in the past, and I was able to comfort that woman in that moment, because it still didn't really have the tools. But I was happy to be able to write that in the book, because I'm saying to myself as much as I'm saying it to everyone reading it? I had to tell myself that there will always be another chance as long as I keep going. And so I wish I had said that to her, but I put it in the book and it's something that I have to remind myself, like that's, probably some kind of tat.

I would get is to remind myself at its never over in a keep fucking up, keep fucking up, love that higher. Here's the last question, whereas EU action just in the name of honesty. I have two final questions. I always asks this is the last question I'm ass before I do the two final questions, which is where are you now? What what are you up to? I know you don't do the lip sinks anymore. You got the book coming out with amazing- and I hope everybody buys it reads it book what's going on for you, I have such big plans and I honestly don't know how much to share, because sometimes Unlike do I tell everybody exactly two, I tell everybody my plan or do I not I really want to make a show, That's really when I want to do. I have said in writing and I learned so much about. myself and I know now when I get the next chances

What I would do differently in one of the things I love this sort of just improvisation, and so it's basically improvisation based show that I'm putting together and who knows when it's gonna come out and also, if your listening to this end, it hasn't come out yet and it's been years spent. Maybe I just gave up on that several via I'd love to you now have you on the show, if I ever now put the show together because I think you'd be perfect to be sort of. I think you're very polish is what I'm trying to say, and I think I could probably use some help in that department, and so I would love you sue perhaps come on. My show and just show me like show me your ways so air straightway privileged my eyes, and I would love that

you're gonna from your role, is your assistant on the show. think you'd be a very bad. Assistance from your voice is very commanding, and so I will have a lot of trouble telling you what to do in passing you around. I think I can try, can try it, though I could I that people tend to get over, that I've noticed. I know a lot of people in my life were quite comfortable telling me what to do. Do you sound different when you talk to dogs well, there's a cat in the studio in today, and I've been talking to this cat all day with its not a risk working relationship, I'm way more into the cat, I've got picked, the energy around this cat in a cat knows it. So if you might have, no cat around me right now, even though I would welcome that If I was the cat, pretend I'm a cat, Are you saying that the cat, I'm too embarrassing self conscious to do that. Embarrassment, is only in your how I know I know, but about this

you put your finger on one of my many vulnerabilities, which is that I am very worried. For example, one of my big self criticism is that I have never been After born after dance, probably dance. I know I don't, I feel I feel as I want to work on it. Ok, let's We're gonna right now listening to this. She said I think, I'm sitting here with a pull up my ass, so that's that's! The vibe come on come on so what about us? Let me just get just just the hands just to show is that I'm just saying I don't like team gotta put this on social media. I just the hands raised: The reason I don't do it just as there is a need

Ok? Well, I now you ve used successfully gotten meet if your foolish, which I appreciate. Oh my guy, see it's an aspirational title. Everyone suggests do something that makes them feel really foolish as they can. I was hoping that when I asked you what your plans are, that you would say, I'm going to co host a podcast with you Dan. That's what I thought you were going to say. I wouldn't be such a bad co hosts yeah. Maybe I don't think so, though I think you'd be that's a sweet, that's a sweet back! You see my I'm a person. You like you, got your questions. You did your research, you seem very prepared. You know, I'm not like that. No I'm I used to be a morning a morning. Show anchor network Helen, and so I'm very much used to having an ensemble around me and surrendering control. at home, like with your family and stuff, he added to it I have a little brother who is not in the news in this social voice.

We call our wives are apparent. They can't tell whose car that's insane. My gas, ok so safe to say, say I'm going out to get some milk. words. I would never actually say, but yes, I would say, honey, I'm going out to get some milk, oh my god. I can't imagine living with that the courts? getting a bit like us- I don't professional like don't you haven't you ever like? Do you ever just do? How do you someone he whispered whisper volume? Ok, I was and is interesting as interesting. If my for here she would say that I am a jack ass on the regular that I am. The goofy is the least serious person and that she go worried. If I'm not being a complete jerk off,

then she knows I'm in a bad mood, but that ninety five percent of the things I say or on serious and that's my general vibe at once cool about your voice, though, is that, like a few, isn't a rap music or something like you I said on the regular and that's kind of a cool phrase, but coming out of your mouth is kind of funny because you're not super cool. You know what I mean That is why, like what I wrote in the book, how about how I can't say dead ass, like I wish, I could say that phrase like dead, ass or certain. I can't say those things because I just it doesn't right coming out of my mouth. What I do I mean I do it pretty deliberately. I think it's funny to have me saying things that don't sound like the type of things I would say so: smart, I wrote a whole scene and my first book about it This time I meditated and how all these crazy things work up. All these weird nonsensical questions coming up in my mind, and one of them was, am I

or or a shock collar. See, that's something I will listen to you. As I promised there are two final questions I want ass one is it did I miss anything? Is there anything you wanted to talk about that? I didn't give you a chance to talk about noise think we really covered a lot of stuff and I would really appreciate. I really appreciate your attention to detail. Thank you. It's mostly my producers who prepare me really well and in the fund. My question is: can you please it remind everybody of the name of your new book and anything else? You on that you want people to know about. Ok, Well, the name of the book is foolish tales of assimilation, determination and humility, and it comes out october. Third and its. elbow on audible and I did read the audible version, so you're gonna wanna get the hard back an odd and then also the digital. Just in case something happens to the hard back exodus just gonna want order all three and I

so going on tour. A be in philadelphia. I will be in new york with Amy shimmer, onstage in conversation and then I'll be in DC with patsy robinson, so yeah come tell me out. If you like, Congratulations on the new book. This was genuinely one of the more interesting keep me on my toes having fun interviews. I've done in a long time, so I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you being so and, let me be so weird, I'm just trying to refurbish the public relations problem that white male Catherine, that's really! Well, that's icelandic star furnace. thanks again to Sarah cooper. I do and she would be a great co host on centre, but I suspect she's got bigger things and her career that anyway, such pleasure to spend time with her

Thank you also to you for listening, wanna. Do me a solid They be a rating or review on your favorite podcast player. That actually helps also go check. the stuff I'm doing on social media. These days, instagram, tik tok just doing some experiments with posting videos love to hear your feedback on that. Thank you both about everybody who worked so hard on. This show. Ten percent happier is produced by justine gavi Gabrielle sacrament lawrence. The terror anderson. cashmeres. Our senior producer, marisa schneider mean, is our senior editor and can be regular. Is our executive producer scoring mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio and nick thorburn of islands. Wrote are theme was here, back here on friday for bonus. A prime members, you can listen

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