This is the ten percent have your pack dan harris the hello my fellow suffering beings, how we doing of all the interviews I have done recently this one, the one you're about to here has lodged in my cranium more prominently them. Perhaps any other interview, doktor David Ross, and is an associate professor at harvard medical school and he's the founder of the centre for anxiety, which side note sounds like a super fun place, doktor S marin's. These is that anxiety is, and these are his words, a gift and a blessing. He contends that it is past. Well, not only to manage your anxiety, but also to thrive with it.

his view is that a major contributor to the current epidemic of anxiety that we're seeing in our culture is that we have grown increasingly uncomfortable and intolerant of discomfort, but discovered, of course, is a non negotiable part of being alive. So how do we get more comfortable? with being uncomfortable. How do we thrive without. Daddy we're going to talk about all of that with David russ marin, plus the difference between stress anxiety, the role of medication in all of this how anxiety can be transmuted into love and the spiritual aspects of anxiety, David, is just out with a new book called driving with anxiety, nine tools to make your anxiety work for you, an enormous amount out of this conversation- and I suspect you will as well a heads up before we get started that doctor rough marin's, audio quarrel,

he's not quite at the level you might be used to, but I promise you this will not detract from the truly incredible insights that he has to share dime for bs p, blatant self promotion. I want to remind you, I just started a new news letter. This is a kind of an experiment and, admittedly a many years late to the newsletter game, but I would love if you would sign up. We ve put a link in the show notes, also over on the ten percent happier app a reminder that we ve got more than five hundred guided meditations and courses from some of the best teachers in the world. If you were wont to navigate the holiday season with a little bit more sanity this week, you can take advantage of our lowest price of the year subscriptions eddie forty percent discount until december. First get this deal before it ends by going to ten percent dot com,

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and former guest scott galloway, the watch with Chris ryan and andy green loam, the political gab fest slate new members can try audible free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dotcom, slash, ten percent. A few weeks ago, several families no got together we'll stayed in an air being b, on the side of a mountain, a beautiful fall weekend and it was really magical. I love a hotel now and again, but when you with a bunch of families, we really want to spend time with, I think it's great to all, be under the same roof to not have everybody retreating to their own personal lairs. At the end of the day, it really was a great bonding experience and I ll

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and anxiety, all the holiday gatherings and activities come with stress therapy, though, can be a bright spot, something to look forward to to help. We feel, grounded and armed with some tools to manage the whole thing like any family paris. Family has its drama, so talking to my therapist can really help me both prepare for big events and come down afterwards if you are thinking about starting therapy, give better help, try its entirely online convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule, find your bright spot. This house season, with better help visit better help, dot com, slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, p dot com, slash happier. Doktor david rest marin, welcome to the show thanks so much robbing so you have, I have a really interesting thesis. Your argument is that should see anxiety,

and these are your words- a gift and a blessing- please explain its ill taken step back. The reason we have an anxiety epidemic is because we are terrified to feel anxious. In truth, This is a normal human emotion, something that we all expect. from time to time and the more we try to squelch it them I try to get rid of it at the worse it gets by contra. When we embrace this. There are many opportunities that come our way, because this is just of life anxiety is gonna happen and the question is: what do we do when it happens? Will get to the opportune Is that come our way allegedly? But let me just ITALY just pick up on some of the points you made thereabout. I think you called it the anxiety epidemic, Do you believe it has been over diagnose and at the same time we are seeing in over prescription of drugs? Yes or no, true. This anxiety in our society is out of control,

the reason for that is because we are alone. To even the low levels of anxiety and the minute we start to feel anxious. We in turn that as a sign that were weak as the scientists and wrong with us, and that interpretation of that means we're gonna dont, more adrenalin into our systems, which then crew it's a cascade of anxiety and then that actually creates an anxiety epidemic so in some ways. The reason why we have so much anxieties book as of diagnosis and because, if, as you mentioned, you know trying to medicated away all the time, but at the same time, there is some truth to that, because we we've really created an actual anxiety epidemic. It's not a fake thing really does occur today. We are super ancient. The root of it is this unwillingness to be uncomfortable, so we get a little pang of anxiety, which is normal, as you ve said, if you're not anxious, you're dead, there is The human condition, we're all gonna worry feel stressed anxious. This is quite normal.

There's something about a modern society that we then tell ourselves this story, this, what you call a cascade that this is unacceptable and we go down the toilet. Act had I agree as a culture as opposed to a modern condition. There are many calls Here's where individuals in societies don't believe You have to forget all the time and they actually are faring lot better. So I can imagine some people might feel a little too. Are you saying we shouldn't be taking medication for anxiety? You know, I know plenty of people who feel like I can't live without my xanax. I can't live without other forms of benzodiazepines. That would sit in this. like family. Similarly, there's zoloft, which I know is very different drug before we get to them If your thesis, let's is clear this off the table? What's your take on medication, I won't make it only clear, I am not against medication and medication a very important place in the management of anxiety and in treatment, however often met

given the sword as the solution to anxiety and the goal of those medications that people are given. specially benzodiazepines, which you mentioned, is to get rid of anxiety when people are told. This will get rid of our pain, get rid of how our feeling they expect to be calm, and to feel. Ok, all the time, inevitably We're gonna have breakthroughs, we're going have pops anxiety that occur during moments, sometimes when we're not expecting them at all and usually what happen This is when people, especially benzes, are taking them. Their anxiety tends to worsen overtime if its uses anxiety, sculpture, other medical since you mention in those all after other medications. Non benzodiazepines, I think, are a little better because they can tap down peoples. Already in general, as opposed to stop bring it in the moment. So that gives us an opportunity to practice taller the anxiety, so it depends on how the medications are used it, but in june

well I'm not against time, I just think we have to be very cautious. Yes also look about how I use the medications just to normalize this for everybody. So I have a panic disorder and it's shown up on camera quite famously or infamously, and also in situations where I might feel Mr phobia, I will use a benzodiazepines like caught up in or out of an as a kind of bridge. You know I don't use it and much now, but when I was in a really heightened state of like disorder around getting on planes, and things like that I will use it. wait. I get me on planes I had to get on and then concurrently, I was doing exposure therapy which working to talk about today, which is Just learning slowly to get comfortable with the discomfort of the claustrophobia so spending where's writing an elevator with my shrink at the westchester mall. So I use the bends

as a bridge. Now I don't use them when I get on a plane, although I have them and it's like an escape hatch if the anxiety gets too strong, but I haven't had to use them, so I'm just getting comfortable the discomfort simultaneously. I also use so loved on our standing basis, very, very low dose, just as a kind of protective measures so you? How does all that sound to you and is that potentially a model for how people could think about it in their own lives? And he it sounds perfected. it's what I was trying to convey before on another came across basically I understand you're, taking anxiety down to a manageable level which enables you to face it? Yes, so it doesn't become, please the overwhelming in the moment. But your goal, isn't he get rid of your anxiety, it's to bring it down to a point, like a mortgage where I live in canada. for the pay the entire house at once, but I can pay off and trunks, but I'm gonna pay it off. You know if you start making your and then that's a different story is not a substitute for dealing with anxiety by facing it, but it does

make it tolerable sieur able manage. It is very good and so the non negotiable here is that we need to deal with it. What do you think's going on there? How many people seem unwilling to deal with it? Well, Can we heard here in many ways- and I think other institutions that we have had since a problematic? such that we need to feel even killed and happy and healthy, mentally healthy all the time and that's just just not realistic part of being a human. Is that work days that it's hard to get out of bed or it's hard to have. Conversations with people or were you know, feeling just pummelled by our emotions. Sometimes this is such a human characteristic and I just think we're missing the boat you have written. That part of what may also be happening here is that we have a society that is, in your words, obsessed with control definitely we have these amazing devices today right. You know these electronic appendages that can give us all sorts of information this more.

I was communicated with people on three continents span of a cup hours. We have such a sense that we can accomplish things in and do things in our emotions. We expect that those words follow suit, like the machinery that we're dealing with today is just not going to happen. I mean human beings not built. That way were built, the think fast and also to think slow. You know have multiple. friends occur even at the same time, complex emotions, that's part of being human as part of the beauty of being here when does that we're? Not machines were not even killed alla time. Another point you ve made and I'm staying at a high level here before we get into this argument. You make about anxiety being a blessing which I just for the record. I agree with you point out that this is interesting,

it's happening right now that anxiety- and I see this in my personal conversations and I feel like sometimes I get in trouble for making the point that you make in your book, which is that anxiety is at record levels and yet by most objective measures, personal security, financial security, access to information, access to education, we've never had it better and out. You are very careful to argue that that doesn't mean that climate change isn't a massive problem, bigotry, inequality. These are all huge brow, definitely and yet looked at from ten thousand feet, things are objectively better. So what do you think explains that delta? And is it possible that people like you- and I find this argument resident because were upper middle class white men? It's definitely possible and it could be my bias of privilege at the same time Look a global data. If you look at me, in some countries

the levels of anxiety compared to upper income countries is half and if you look at in some countries. The middle income countries it also its half. There could be, action factors, of course, but if you look at levels of suicide in objective behavioral measures of mental health. You look and levels of people going and disability here in the middle of the twentieth century, where they were world wars where people are facing Variety: vietnam, the cubans, crisis. These workers were massive national crises that we faced, things are so much worse. Today. Socially then they were back then? So I don't think it's just by us. You know maybe there's aspect of that, but I don't think it's only my by us. I think that this is an objective reality that, in some ways, certain challenges that we have as a society actually make us less likely to experience in anxiety epidemic. What explains the delta,

when you live in the middle and commerce, lower income country or where you been through challenges in life, you expect to feel unmoored. Sometimes it's part of life when you speak to your friends, not impression management? Oh I'm feeling great today on looking greater. They know it's a tough day, it's a tough weak and that its parlay into actual emotional wellness. Ironically, over time, we expect to be totally august for even killed. We now have a bad day. You know ladies and gentlemen, that is just not going to happen That's not here! It's just. comes down to expectations. If you expect everything to be rainbow barf and unicorns, then you're in for some nasty surprises you are going to suffer. If you see suffering a part of life. Well, then you're more resilient. Exactly I might say, if you see- pain, is apart a livelier less likely. To summarize, I might even say I might even say: is it also that

there's something about modern, wealthy countries where we have lost a sense of community law, isolated were individualistic and that could contribute. Certainly, I also see that, as a symptom of the larger problem, relationships are met. see and the closer relationships that you have the more see they are, I mean people today contains even twenties are less likely to day than ever A lot of the relationships are pixelate it because it so much here to deal with two dimensions than the three dimensional person who like has gaston stuff comes up and when we want to have a clean, predictable smile. all the time. It's a lot harder to have those relationships, so I think individualism is actually coming from this place of needing to be in control all the time and meeting he'll get all the time so interesting. I tend to agree what about mental health awareness? I really interesting quote recently for some

public health official who was saying yes to a certain extent. Obviously it's great that the stigmas around anxiety, chemical dependency, depression, loneliness dead, the stigmas have eroded massively, and so that our great, but this where's my saying when I see mental health awareness day, I went a little bit because we're too aware of it at this point and were too focused on it that resonate with you, it does to some degree. You know, if think of one positive thing came out of the pandemic. Instead people actually started revealing emotional, very ability. If you look at them miles, she's a real champion of being able to say like hey, you know, I'm just not gonna can be here because of how a feeling today, So in some ways I see that as a win. In fact, in many way, I see that actually is a when I think that we do have to combat the general approach and are society of having to feel and look on all the time and when we accept that distressed is a party life and were able to talk about that. I actually think it makes us stronger and yet do worried all about the kind of

a cessation of our mental states, that it as soon as we feel anxious we make our distraught tik tok post about it, and is there a downside to awareness to some degree. I think the pendulum does have to when a forward and to get to a place of regulation- and maybe seeing the pendulum swing, which might be a little bit too far in some cases. In one thing that does trust me his when people are involved in things like self injury online, because there is a contagion effect, and we know that one, were exposed to that end. Constricted people, ideas of what to do so model The behaviors, I think, is different than modeling a vulnerability of speaking about how we feel like, if someone's on tik, tok, rennie social media platforms. Speaking about the fact that their anxious you did, was so heroic. You know, even today, speaking of panic disorders, May I see that is such a positive, healthy embracing beer, humanity, which makes you somebody who's

somebody is so relate of all I wish more people would do that, but I appreciate that. Thank you. Ok, we're gonna dive into the three part argument of your book, but the mass one, more foundational deafness, it'll question, which is: how do you define anxiety things had he shares the same brain circuitry as fear, which means that anxiety, the fight her flight system, inaction, addressed and goes through our blood. We have cascade hold Serious host rather of physical symptoms that occur in everything, from dilation of the pupils to muzzle attention, increase, breathing increased blood flow through the body, and all that is intended to prepare us just like a fear, respond the only difference between fear and anxiety is that fear is a response to a real threat. It present threat anxiety is basically a false alarm is when the fiercest gets triggered, but it didn't need to. There wasn't actually a safer to tiger. So this big there wasn't actually an imminent

threat, so yeah anxieties unnecessary, but it's not dangerous. It just means that your system is working fact of anything. It sir in that era neurologically and an otherwise well, and can respond to threat. If you need to do well. That leads us nicely into the three parts of your argument. That anxiety is is a gift. Your thesis is that working with anxiety can enhance our lives on three levels, and the first level is that it enhances your connection with yourself and that it teaches you about your own strengths and areas where growth could be called for. Can you just say more about that part of your argument. Sure one more point for getting into the meat of it. I'm not saying anxieties. I certainly has no amount of anxiety that experience and the is in the moments where I'm feeling panicked when I'm feeling uncomfortable when I'm feeling even a little thing. It's not pleasant. Those are

at the moment that I'd want to write home about, but. When I respond to myself and when respond with others, and when I tried to you in a constructive way. I find that it immeasurably enriches. My life I'm in ways that I would actually prefer to live with that distressed and without it. So that's where we're going. Not making light of anxiety in any way and I've worked and acute psychiatric settings, and I haven't visceral sense of how bad it can be, but that doesn't mean that we can use parlay again that into something positive in our lives. Point well taken cassio question: you have course a therapist than me wants to ask

since you started to experience panic, would you say or more self aware, the yes by necessity, because from my first now my first panic attack my most public bank attack back in two thousand for on television I needed to deal with it in order to continue working and that just got me to therapy. So, yes, I am by necessity, more self aware. okay, fine, granted by necessity, but we became more self aware, and I can't tell you how many of my patients say the exact same thing. Almost all of them will say that they're more self aware, because of it think it more self compassionate for sure, but it really took me a long time to get to that piece of shit. That's it late development hey you know, makes sense. I think in our society were really hardest on ourselves, maybe in doing more than others in almost all treatments for anxiety, whether that sea bt, which I practice or dvd, which I also practice or even dynamic,

The forces of psychotherapy are often about becoming more aware, more self, compassionate in recognising that we just have these limits and we're going to have these feelings, and that's totally, That's a part of it. It's such a healthier way to work Would you say that anxieties enhanced our relationship with yourself? Yes, a hundred percent you know it's something that we often miss, because when you're going through anxiety, its people and it just socks, but often people look back in the leg well under the different person. Here I am several years. In intimate connection with myself yesterday. Isn't that, like by Joseph Campbell into heroes, ernie that we are designed to veto over the course of our lives, face challenges and grow. As a result, I think we are equipped to face challenges. Often we shy away from them. This is the way that we feel that if we try to squelch her anxiety and just get rid of it, then in addition to it being,

Time usually doesn't work, usually mixed feelings. Any worse, but in addition to that, I think we miss out on the opportunity to really know ourselves. Coming up david rough marin talked about the difference between anxieties. Rest? How anxiety can actually- and this counter intuitive, improve your relationships with other people and yourself I he's a proponent of exposure therapy, I'm not a big meat eater. In fact, some of you may know that I will be in for many many years. I have of late been adding some meat back into my diet. So when I do choose to eat meat, it's important that that meet the high quality and humanely raised. That is why put your box has been a great choice for my family, but your boss,

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This week. You can take advantage of our lowest price of the year to help you get started, we're offering subscriptions at a forty percent discount until december. First get this deal before it ends by going to ten percent dot com, slash forty, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dot com, slash four zero for forty percent off your subscription. So what's the difference between anxiety stress yes, so stress, can resemble anxiety and that some of the symptoms are the same. Often the muscle tension in difficulty, breathing the heart rate, doesn't quite go as high, but it can be elevated in general. The difference

oh, is that we are not dealing with an immediate threat. You're dealing with a low grade chronic threat, em in the simplest definition of stress, is when you have too few resources to deal with the demands that are in front of you. If I'm ten minutes away from somewhere- and I have to be there in five minutes- I'm gonna be five minute stressed the difference between my resources and demands equals them now to stress that out and wait. I understand that as being the definition of stress. How does that differ from anxiety, so the symptoms are similar because its activating a similar set of processes in the body and also relationship? Is that when I feel is about something. Essentially, I perceiving that I had a threatened my life and I don't have the region it just to be able to deal with that says, similarity between anxiety and stress, the differences that with this is only due to about difference with anxiety,

could be like a perceived thing like I'm really nervous about something that just isn't gonna happen to you. If we think about whether we are experiencing stressed right now, which is mathematical, you know and measurable the difference between our resources and our capacity and anxiety, which may simply be a problem with our perception of the events yeah. I think so way of thinking about it. Often people who have chronic stress we'll take on more things in order to avoid recognizing how dress they are the type of people who will take on extra projects at work. Take on additional funding for commitments be volunteering in their community doing also of great things. When they're already completely tempt in terms of their level of resources, substantially less than the existing demands? I you know, I think many people do this myself included, sometimes in

one or two of gun that feeling that I'm not control it's hard to accept that there is only so much that we can do it says a lot of similarities between stress and anxiety, although there are differences as well. I imagine are often co morbid because, as I hear you're talking here, I mean it feels like yeah. I personally have a lot of stress, often self created, and it may be that I'm creating because of my anxiety sure it's much easier to focus on her to do less than than whether it's panic or a cd or generalized anxiety, disorder and lots of worries. You know clipping through your head. Some people find I wouldn't call, it soulless its distraction is just sheer distracted by piling on unless the things to do, but suppose that dealing with them, really gotta? Do us? Joseph gold seems a great meditation teacher was staying at our house recently in He- and I were talking about It- is the conference

and he and I've been having for a long time when he goes into uncle Joseph mode and points out that I do too much stuff, even though I have, as I often say, serially divested myself a various careers over the years. His point is like you're, still work in seven days a week, and I I think at the root of that is anxiety or an irrational fear of being homeless at some point and I think, a clinging to the various trappings of late stage, capitalism that I've been will do accumulate cumulative and an unwillingness to say you know what I'm not sure. It's worth all the energy to maintain the ep has definitely in there sorry for having an academic position at harvard medical school can be a tough environment and having to keep up with my colleagues, I am in terms of product eddie and then also having a clinic which grew in. A string of now seven. Officers and eighty staff here plastics.

cloning. I had certain points along the way. I definitely had to really take inventory of my own feelings and what am I doing like? Why am I taking on so margin? I guess you know it's not only capitalistic, I'm also you're trying to advance the world and we are dealing with a mental health crisis. Though I have all those you no good reason to be doing this and maybe they're excuses, though at some level reckoning what that was such a good process? Free personally I'll tell you, I think it actually maybe a more effective administrator, more effective academician, so one or reasons in doing this book, which is more public facing us see I want to have a bigger impact, have to scale back from other things. In order to do that. So you said reckoning with that was really helpful. Is a wooded that reckoning look like and where did you net out?

paring down. This is not going to be my responsibility, I'm going to delegate it and you know, watch other people struggle with this and deal with it and there's a great phrase that I came across recently. Apparently has a polish proverb, not my circus, not my monkeys, inaccurate! It's just not my problem and I can't be dealing with everything had a certain level on not just at a certain level. I am simply human have to accept that focus on what I really want to focus on.

without anxiety and never would have come to that. So this essential ism, as it's been called of, like paring down to what you view as essential to be your priorities. I can imagine it requires some sacrifice in terms of control, but did it also require any material sacrifice? It certainly required confronting that possibility along the way, which was scary, I'm sure you've had to do the same thing while, yes, I quit have quite a lucrative career as a news anchor and yet I still think there's more reckoning to be done. I'm curious. What is the reckoning look like for you? How do you work with your and anxiety? Do you have a therapist yourself. Are you applying what you teach your patience, you mentioned c b t and dvd people may not know what that is the up. I mean in some ways the book that I rode is my own, took it up or what do in order to handle not only anxiety, but you know any number of struggles instructors

coming along the way and also tools, of course, that I used with countless patients over the years and then examples. I'm a runner, I'm a long distance runner that that keeps me sane. You know me with my trainer once a week very blessed to be able to do that. My family spend you know a lot more time these days than it used to with my family, which is amazing, and I try to just be myself and struggling in our talk to my way about it, use those who operate. It is to connect, as opposed to just pretending, everything's. Ok, I think spiritually, which is a piece of the book, but not the main peace. That's also and aspect for me just coming to terms and accepting I humanity, my very small piece in the universe, my lack of control and what I really want to accomplish

it's world as opposed to a lot of the. I love that word a centralism he said before getting down to that like who am I and what can I do and I think without distress I just wouldn't have any of that yeah that one lands for me and like you, I personally would not place myself at the end of that process and the ongoing will let let's learn a little bit more about the nitty gritty tools you use with your. since then that you describe in the book, especially in the first part of the book and the thesis of the first year of the book, is that anxiety and distress can help us improve our relationships with ourselves. You mention self compassion. What specifically do you recommend for people in this regard? yeah, when you're feeling anxious don't take a new project that day don't run away from it. He kind yourself. Try to get a little more rest. Try to do something you enjoy those days for self compassion. You know if you're having a tough time, that's not a day for fast food.

What does he know that the data go out somewhere nicer to actually spend the time making yourself dinner? Go for a run Don't you like go to a movie carbon, all, nay out with them. I mean they're, so many I'm just giving in a random examples here but, like I said before both of us have for when we feeling anxious, sir This plough ahead in order to start thinking about the anxiety in order to pretend that were stolen control has opposed. we're, just letting it wash over us accepting it and being kind. I can imagine people hearing this and saying themselves or shouting out loud. Well, I can't be kind to myself to that. Can't cook a dinner go for a run. Call a friend my boss keeps calling me my kids are crying. I don't have a choice, there's no! Let up yeah that's why there are multiple skills in the book. You know if it's an interpersonal thing with the boss, there might have to be a heart to heart conversation or the like: hey, I'm, having a really hard I'm right now and I need to know what I mean we have to get done, because all this is not going to happen.

it's a lot of gods and a lot of courage to be able to do that, and I recognise not everybody can do that and to keep their jobs. That's also another factor which is knowingly children and there have to be other tools that we use in such circumstances but more often than not, I've found that when people are adding value to a company, especially in this climate there's some degree of I will not gonna call job protection, but people want to keep them and work with them and if they're going to have a tough couple of weeks and then they're going to be bad I can swing or whatever it is better to have that conversation and I often encourage my patients to just be upfront, or at least to talk to someone else at work. If you can't talk to your boston or work colleague, you know I'm having a hard time. Cover for me can help me out. There are strategy, ways to manage it, but it doesn't come from pretending that everything's, ok and surgeon forward. That's not the strategy. You and earlier c b, t dvd, that's cognitive, Beira therapy, a dialectical, behavioral therapy waters and basic tools. You I know you

the greater detail in your one. I once ashes with patience and in the book, but just some things. The case could try at home. Listening to this broadcast exposure therapy as a kind of behavior therapy tool in some ways its thee cbt tool for anxiety and we've spoken about before on this podcast and personally involved facing your fear, not shying away from them, but the man using about exporter. Firstly, it it's very real is very raw, and it's very painful and I'll tell you as it there first, it so hard to watch her patience going through exposure therapy where their confronting their fear, and so it s really uncomfortable. Imagine I don't ask me patients to do anything. I wouldn't do myself, so you may cost a phobia before so it I've been, and also the nooks and crannies end when people have oecd patients of obsessive compulsive disorder? The lot of gross stuff

Then I'd prefer not to talk about on the air that certainly had to do alongside mutations in order to help them habituate and expose themselves. So to speak to the anxiety, but I actually wanted to get your take on us to think that going through exposure there have been facing. Your fears has made you more resilient in general, not just for a panic but more broadly and life. A thousand percent, not just ten percent just a hundred percent, a thousand ass, giving ass our. So it's a girl, I mean this is a part of being alive. Is is just to go back to Joseph Campbell, maybe we're not built for this, but we are equipped for, and I think it is a great way to infuse meaning to go, who hardships and learn from it and come out stronger on the other side, and I have found that. Staring down the barrel of a resurgence of panic, where I thought. Okay, with his just proves that I'm up

a fraud and a failure, and I cannot imagine getting back on a plane too slowly and gently systematically confronting the fears. and seeing that I could do. It just gave me so much confidence in my own strength and in the past, were of my mind in the human mind generally that yeah it's made me better able to tolerate lots of life's slings and arrows, and I want to emphasise I'm a complete wimp in many men ways- and I may be a little less than I used to decisively start to work under assault, compassionate ok. Why did I want to send a report now, like I got to thinking of all the examples of like how much whining I was doing to myself asked her today, an hour or two ago by feeling overloaded another family less than I am always working on it, and I suspect I'm not the only one yeah, that's the difference between a thriving and flourishing which are maybe get to it,

too, but I just want to ask another question. Would you have started ten percent happier if you hadn't overcome aspects of your anxiety with exposure therapy? Would you have had the guts did? You know leave as an anchor and launch this new product. No not wouldn't have known. There was a project to start outside of that's for facing the news. Now, that's fair, so Patients who go through exposure there be have renewed courage and strength to be able to face any matter of life. I mean it's gonna make you nervous when you're starting something brand new and habituating yourselves to anxiety is just a good, healthy life skill that exposure there be teachers and it makes it so much easier to achieve our goals in dreams. What's the difference between thriving and flourishing, so a flourishing is and people are doing well in their careers, going great relationships in our health wisely.

a fine monetarily things are going great. Often, that's because of external circumstances replace right time. Markets are good right. Its economy, stupid, as they say, thriving, can occur. Whether your flourishing, whether your languishing, whether your distress even severely distressed. I worked on in pay, in psychiatric units within the harbor mercosur, I met maclean hospital. I've seen moments of thriving on the impatient units were patient who are severely distressed her moments of connection you haven't aha moment they face their fears they open up. about something that's really on their minds to their best. Her to somebody else on the units, their moments of bravery, their moments of moments of light in it, day. That's otherwise very dark. Said it before, and I say it again, dealing with anxiety and thriving with anxiety is not it's not always fun, but it

so worthwhile and overtime. When we learn to do this, you know you look back two three four five years later and you're, just a different person, Coming up david talks about how anxiety can be translated into love why we often use anger to cover up for our fear and anxiety and spiritual benefit of thinking. The worst. The holidays are coming up and maybe you're planning some travel with your family or a friends. It's a great time to check out via tore to consider booking some experience. To share together and makes a memories fight or has over three hundred thousand book experiences and something for everyone. Everything from simple tours for extreme adventurous plus via torres travel, expense, it's his have millions of real traveller reviews, so you can have the information you need to book the best activities for your trip. I went to damage

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stylish, innovative ex ps thirteen engineered to do it all on the intel, evil platform plus save big and ultra sharp monitors and top brand accessories shop. Now adele dot com, slash deals to take advantage of financing options and get free shipping On everything, again, that's del dot com, slash deals for huge savings. Today, Let's move to the second and third parts of your argument for anxiety, being a gift to the first, as we have just discussed, is that it can improve your relationship with yourself can improve your confidence and resilience. The second is that it can improve. Your relationship anxiety, can with other people how so, yes, now I want to clarify it does not always do this. In fact, many times when we feel anxious, the lasting want to do is to show that other people and to open up to them-

often when relationships do make us anxious. We do one or two things we fight where we flee and there's an activation of the fight or flight system. Humans are social beings, we're meant to be social beings. We thrive when we are and because of that relationship, the matter a lot. I would also say because of that, when we feel anxious there is something so emotionally intimately connected about speaking to someone else about how you feel now, whether that's a friend whether it's a therapist, whether it's a romantic partner, opening up about how you feel being vulnerable, taking the risk that someone might reject you or judge you allowing them, be there real and creating that secure connected bond? It's almost like anxiety is the tool that we can convert into love. I would go as far as to say that in our interpersonal relationships, how does anxiety get transmuted into love? What's the mechanism there

so I'll explain like this. Let's say you have a couple just an autistic romantic scenario and their arguing over on a new financial matter. You spend too much. You know you're too cheap so the recriminations go for years and years, nobody gets anywhere until they act we start having conversations about their anxieties. Why? I am I'm so scared that you're being treat often what will come out this actually did. I is a current example of a couple of dealing with now. He was afraid about her being tree was because he didn't want to lose her and felt like if I'm not providing if we're not materially comforted unable to enjoy what we have. Then. Maybe this relationship is something you're, gonna get fed up with and actually leaved. Finally, after months, that fear was expressed, fruit of the anxiety came out. It was such an aha moment can therapy, because you know he was able to get

reassurance like I'm not going anywhere like this, isn't about the money, never husband and then mute only when she to him what we are spending too much money. What came out was- and he knew this so you can. I should have figured it out beforehand, but her parents had financial struggles when she was a kid and almost split because of it, and it was painful for her to watch them struggling. So she really needs to see a bank balance with a certain amount. Otherwise she vanished, but again he was about love in the relationship and once they communicated that they were afraid of losing each other. It settled He's down so much it takes time to get there, though so just to get into the algebra of this alchemy. If you can in your interpersonal relationships, be open about the shit that scares you that can lead to earth through, giving of the relationship and that's how anxiety leads to love. Yes, as long as it's expressed in a vulnerable way,

it received by the other party, has you being vulnerable, because if you ve done after years and years of criticism there knocking here. It is a vulnerability, they're gonna here to criticise this. You might have to do it for a long time like it could take six months. If it just saying in being consistent He mentioned alchemy and in some ways it is, but in other ways to actually get the formula right. You know you have to for a lot or whether to pass, and it can be complicated depending let's go on in the background. The relationship, however, now banning all that yeah. When we expect nor vulnerabilities when they received as vulnerability is when that person is able to be there for us which he use although not always they are sometimes they might not be there by the way they might actually decide to go, which is terrible. happens, but then I wish you know where you stand, but when they want to be there, You show them what you need them and they hear that you need them. That's called secure adoption system,

Great out of sea johnson's, emotionally focused therapy and very powerful technique. is another mechanism by which anxiety can lead to improve relationships that, once you have more self awareness it can in surely lead to you understanding that other people have their own. My and lives and interior ups and downs? And therefore, if you have some empathy for them, there is something about expense in our own emotional playin. It makes us more in tune to the feelings of other beings I think it's also reflexive, like sometimes being more empathic and being more compassionate towards others can help us to be more compassionate in like towards ourselves in and even more in tune with the colleagues, so these two build on each other in a positive way. Yes, I mean that's what I sometimes jokingly referred to as the cheesy upward spiral, that you know as you get cooler with yourself, you get it other people, your relationships, improve and because their relationships are probably the most important, very

well in human flourishing and thriving you get are happier and then your relationships get better and so like. Yes, you can access the spiral from either side. You can start by being self compassionate or you can start by being of service and either one them can in the right circumstances, lead to a positive self, reinforcing upwards bar the hunters at so at the beginning of this part of the discussion. How were, you did say, anxiety doesn't always lead to better relationships, and I suspect what you were pointing out there is that were unwilling to accept our anxiety for going to shut it down through denial, compartmentalization polly pharmacy, the thing whatever it is, then we may end up being closed off to other people's emotions and that's the opposite of the cheesy upward spiral, yeah, we're gonna, be closed off other people's emotions and also our own, and if you're, not, to be interested in very difficult to have a close relationship if you're more

go to blame. The other party is opposed to sing. I need you, it's so much easier to say. Why are you doing that? That's dumb, as opposed to hey when you do that it really makes me nervous click. It actually raises my hurry, It makes me uncomfortable because of x Y and z factor. Would you mind engineer behaviour not because you're doing anything wrong, I'm not blaming you, I'm just sharing my need, that's the difference, but it's not easy do that, and sometimes when we feel anxious were more likely to blame were more likely to get into fighter flight sometimes were less likely to see. People's feelings because we're so wrapped up in her own yeah. But if we're ready who accepted anxiety is here to stay? We just have to use it in a positive constructive manner, then that opens up these doors and any of those doors can lead to just new vistas for relationships. Emotional connection, intimacy physical intimacy, I've seen people transformed over this back to the negative saturday

question. You write about the connection between anxiety and anger, and you came close to the notion just a few sentences ago, and I find that very reason, because I member being on my high horse about something in some therapy session, pissed off self righteous in some way and the therapies said, will sometimes we think of anger as a secondary issue. They usually there's something underneath it that you're covering up with the anger and for me I find that usually fear anxiety The great therapist I'll tell you. I was not really tuned into the relationship between anxiety and anger until the pandemic and the harvard called me up in there like, what's with all their Saving anger that we're seeing in this world. Do you have anything and I had to think long and hard before I took that interview, but I did they published a peace and This is exactly what I came to you and what was was written about that interview. I think you said it's a beautiful forehead, when we feel anxious it's much easier.

Converted fat into anger hey, you're, doing something wrong. What's wrong with you like, you know, as opposed to really what's going on at a phenomenal primary level, which is a very uncomfortable with something and our relationship. matters, which means I'm kind of locked in here. Not going anywhere you're, not going anywhere as some kind of stock? so I'm trying to get you to change through his showing anger as opposed to show my the that, like hey, I really kind of need hand here. She would Think is the move if, where dumas growling and feeling all this rage at people, we, degree where there are throwing our shoe at the television or whatever it is. Is there some sort of inward move. We can make that might make those moments a little different and attention could scale up to healthier society. Now I think there are a lot of those we can make. First is I think we have to be kind to ourselves and recognize that we're going to be frustrated, that's for damn good reason, because there's a lot of stuff happening today, which is when what size any sides, whoever you are better

what? If I frustrating reading in crazy, I think we have to accept that as opposed to try to get rid of it explain what other people and talking to them about how it makes us feel vulnerable, that there are certain people doing certain things and what? implications might be and what I'm really afraid of. As opposed to the anger, I think the more we speak about the primary emotion of fear, as opposed to the secondary emotion of anger, put the key one, the biggest one, though, really said, connachar three of my book, which is accepting our humanity like throughout all of human history. There's only so much that we can do I'm not saying we shouldn't vote, I'm not saying we shouldn't fight climate change, I'm not saying we shouldn't do what we can, but at the end of the day, like I'm one person- and you know I'm not going to give up in my area, in my area of specialty in my unique struggle, but at the same time their benefits that I'm just not mine Because not my monkeys, I dont have dog in that fight and accepting that is so hard it so hard in an ear.

Of history where we seem to have so much control. So I think we need to accept that just think we need a recognised are very small place in the world and I think that it was better people when you do that. You reference to the third part of your book, which you in title, enhancing your spiritual connection, it's so by spiritual and since you mean like in the sense of a positive smallness, that can be a feeling of all in the face of the unfathomable, huge nests of steel, Definitely also it's not a religious matter for me personally, you know I'm a religious individual and that informs spirituality, I think there are many pass to the realm of the specialised in autumn. Italy is recognising the fact that were were human there's. Another aspect of spirituality, to self actual alsatian, bringing fourth, your unique potential see

What has to be done in this world? What are my unique skills to be able to make a difference in the world in having the guts to go for it, anxiety is going to be part of that you're gonna be out on a limb if, in pursuing a real dreams, it's gonna feel terrifying and that's great, and when people get hooked on that, I think that's. When a lot of the magic happens, Also in this part of the book, where you're talkin about the spiritual benefits of anxiety, you have a phrase that I, like you say, the spiritual benefit of thinking the worst. What do you mean by that? What's the benefit of thinking the worst, this is a page out of exposure, thereby actually cognitive air therapy. For dealing with chronic worry, otherwise known as generalised anxiety disorder and one of the techniques which was developed. I think, initially by tom pork back, is to learn to think the worst as who's the low levels of worry on a chronic basis when people worry there like what, if I get sick, what, if I lose my money

don't actually delve into like? No really. What would it look like the next day after you got abandoned it? What would it actually look like the pull up your bank account and see as zero? What would you do next claude. You feel like, however, impact relationships, how that impact everything else and people don't want to go there in voter there before worry. First J D, we encourage people to go there because once we accepts with little control. We have. We can tolerate uncertainty better. We can tolerate not knowing what's going to happen next, but it makes us more resilient to be able to handle life stressors. So I do think, there's a spiritual benefit to this as well sort of accepting our place in the universe that like how much can I really control it's hard to think about, but it's so humbling and very uplifting, ironically, in a certain way,

people want to try this exercise at home. I believe it basically is. You know catching yourself and low level worry and just asking systematically. I believe the word you use are. If so, then what would happen? And so yeah just keep going with that to its logical conclusion, if it gets really amped up and really tough on your own, it might be the kind of thing to speak about with a therapist, or at least with a friend or family member, times? It's easier to think the worst when you're not alone, so I just throwing that one piece of caution, but he I do think we have to learn to accept those aspects of potential reality. Your fellow bostonian doktor, Robert wilder, came on our shores fellow harvard guy too and used the phrase and may not be his bitter, never worry, alone and absolutely of that area in lieu of that. Just one more question on the spiritual tipp: here you talk about the power of prayer. What do you mean by that

he has a question so some of this year's informed by my own, the arduous coming from the door faith, but I do think- and I hope I speak about it in a way that successive author people, but I'd like to see all things for none, whether they do pray dont know in the sea bt world, especially people, think of prey as a compulsive acts that people do in order to cope with uncertainty. That's not the way was taught to me, and I often That is not used in that way within religious communities. Prayer an where I glaring at least request prayers, hey, I'm in trouble. Can you help me out and yes, there is inactive, toward of trying to manipulate the heavens. If you well and trying to cope with the ones in zaire, he, but there's another subtext which is. I am accepting that I'm not in control of the situation that yeah do whatever I can people talk about it in it? ology cycle in college. A lot of some colleagues.

Do spiritual research, John petite is one of them at harvard medical scorned they never cancer institute on the sidewalk and tracing of our bony another individual, her her wonderful, Michael, but, and you know some Our work has taught us that, there's something that when people are going through a cancer diagnosis where they will go to treatments, do the best they can but There is a letting go of control which can be facilitated through prayer and other means, which is very healthy for dealing with the situation. People are engaged, tap into reality, but there also letting go hand when player used in that way to facilitate acceptance. It can be a very positive.

Here is an exciting can be parlay into that actually interact and give a person of you well especial burst, have definitely seen that you keep pointing to right from the beginning here. This issue of controlled being who may be at the root of our anxiety epidemic in food is, and will probably say, clinging if prayer is not the menu, for example. For me as a I call myself, a friendly agnostic, what are the practices that I could do that would help me. Let go see my smallness see my lack of control and ease into it. I think contemplating the in ability of one situation. One circumstances you know thinking of its once a week how bad things could will go and really getting to a place of acceptance around that. I could see that being a positive experience, both promotional resilience and for spiritual growth, in whatever way you want to. there has programmes was coming to mind you. I try to do that

It's a play. It all the way out and think are so how do if I lose it all What's that really gonna mean I try to do that? Someone read early and I always come to like you. You'll be fine. I know my wife will stay with me and I know my still, gonna, let me and we'll figure it out. I don't know I always believe that in my molecule site, like sometimes add a little, the aforementioned joseph Goldstein likes to teach him phrases the little mantras little slogans you can use when you need them he this does not come from him. This is just something that I started saying to myself, which is your good. you're gonna be fine. You know it, you may you may lose a bunch of stuff they cling to, but you're good at your fine. Just stop the spiral and really and the intellectual conclusion of it'll be fine at the end of this, shitty rainbow in to my felt sense, that's what I'm saying makes sense. You tat sounds good. You know only add that, even if we have more,

of clarity around this and we can't carry it into our day to day life. I think it's the worthwhile, you know it's sort of like we're in the dark and then a lightning bolt goes on. Unlike you can see everything clearly for a fraction of a second if you know you're heading in the right direction, great so yeah. If it's a practice once a week once a month sounds like you have a large dish and decorate, but I've learned a lot from you. Speaking of teaching don't be surprised. If you see me, quoting you a lot going forward. I really love you're talkin about here. Before, let you go. Can I just push you to shamelessly plug your new book and any other resources you ve put up in the universe you're very kind thriven with anxiety, nine tourists and make your anxiety work for you feel very blessed to have written a book with harper

once has an awesome, publisher and it'll be available october. Seventeenth, wherever books are sold all right. Thank you very much appreciated grid job. Thank you. Thanks again to Doktor gay grass Marin- as you know, he had some incredibly practical things- say about anxiety. If you wanna take a deeper dive on this topic, we will in the show notes slew of links to previous episodes. We ve done on anxiety, including interviews with tpa favorites, like doktor judge and brewer, the meditation teacher leslie booker and the accurate singer. Cerebral us ten percent have yours produced by Gabriel's, ackerman, jesting davy, Lord psmith and tear anderson dj cashmere, our senior producer and british nitrogen is our seas, editor o connell is our director of audio and post production and gimme regulars. Our executive producer deletion, a key leads our marketing Antonia magyar is our director of podcast nick thorburn of islands, road. Our

we'll see you on wednesday, four afresh episode with boring J so for the great dharuma teacher teacher. If you like, ten percent happier and I hope you do you can listen early and ad free right now, by joining one replace, wondering app or on apple pie casts prime members. listen ad free on amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash survey, hey there. I know that life is full of challenges, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Mr philosopher once said that no man is more on happy than he who never faces adversity foresee is not permitted to prove himself I'm rhine holiday, the best selling author and host to do is to pack has two paragraphs. Where breakdown the ancient teachings from the stoic philosophers, so you can apply there. Thinking to the problems of modern life on the daily stood you'll find out

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