Wonder plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and ad free right now. Join wondering plus in the wondering app or on Apple podcasts. It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doin'? We caught up with Abby Wambach. At a very interesting time for her. She is experiencing grief for reasons that I will let her explain and for the first time in her life she says she is grief. While sober, which in itself is an interesting story, which she will also tell. As you know, or at least--

I hope you know. We only really talk to famous people on this show if they're willing to go deep, and it's why we call this recurring series Boldface. Abby Wambach is bolder than most. We also talk in this interview about moving from external to internal validation, her definition of self-love, a concept in which I have a lot of interest because it's simultaneously cheesy and life-changing. The one question that changed her life, how every experience can be turned into something positive, and on a related note, why getting arrested for drunk driving was one of the best things that ever happened to her. Abby Wambach is a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA World Cup champion, and six-time winner of the US Soccer Athlete of the Year.

Ward. She's the author of the number one New York Times bestseller Wolfpack and together with her wife Glennon Doyle, a previous guest on this show, and Glennon's sister Amanda Doyle, Abby co-hosts It's the award-winning, critically acclaimed, We Can Do Hard Things podcast. Just to say before we dive in, we're doing a little bit of an experiment this week. Celebrity interviews as part of the aforementioned boldface series. This is, like I said, an experiment to drop three in a row, which we thought it would be fun to do during the summer, so let us know how it goes. Abby Wambach coming up right after this. But first, some BSP. As you've heard me say before, the hardest part of personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever you want to call it. Want to call it the hardest part is forgetting. You listen to a great podcast, you read a great book, you go to a great talk, whatever it is.

And the message is electrifying. But then, you get sucked back into your daily routines, your habitual patterns, and you forget. So this is the problem for which I have designed. And I'll see you next time. That I'm pondering right now. And then I give you two of the top takeaways from the podcast this week. It's really for both me and for you to get these mess- Into our molecules. I'm just kind of mainlining the practical aspects of the episodes from the week and listing it out for you. And then I also list three cultural recommendations, books, movies, TV shows that I'm into right now. You can sign up. It's free. It's at DanHarris.com

DanHarris.com, sign up for the newsletter. Also want to tell you about a course that we're highlighting over on the 10% Happier app. It's called Healthy Habits. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonigal and the meditation teacher Alexis Santos. It's great stuff. To access it, just download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%com. That's one word all spelled out. The wait is over. Technologies Black Friday and July deals are live. Check out incredible savings on select laptops and more like the XPS 15 powered by Intel Core processors. The XPS 15 brings you the perfect balance of power and portability. Affordability, plus stellar visuals and immersive sound. When you shop online at Dell.com/deals, you'll have access to the latest and greatest tech news and product reviews. Us to exceptional tech and electronics plus free shipping on everything.

Black Friday in July savings at Dell.com/deals. This podcast is brought to you by Huggies. Little movers. Our son is nine, so we've been out of the diapers game for a while, but I do remember when we were regular customers of Huggies. The Huggies know babies come in all shapes and sizes, and baby Tushies do too. Huggies has more curves. And outstanding active fit. I should also add that this product is curved to fit all of your baby's curves with 12 hour protection against. Get your baby into the best fitting diaper, Huggies Little Movers.

Thanks for having me. I have listened to so many episodes and I'm such a huge fan of yours and I just I love how you do your life and work. Thank you. I appreciate that. Right back at you. And the last time you did make an appearance but nobody would have known about it because you were doing the tech. For your wife, Glennon Doyle, when she showed up on this podcast several months ago. And I remember there was somebody like kind of at the base of her chair, like. Toggling with some knobs or something else. I was like, is that Abby Wambach doing tech for Glennon Doyle? And yes it was. - It was, it was, and it always is. The tech part of Glennon's brain. We all have certain strengths, and that's just not one of Glennon's, but it's one of mine, so. It gives me some worthiness. - Yes, you know, I have a place in this family. - I think you have a place that goes well beyond tech, but I'm sure we'll get to that.

Let me start at a bit of a sensitive spot. You and I were chatting right before we started rolling and I was just kind of asking you what was on your mind of late and you said grief. A little bit about why that is such a salient emotion for you now? Yeah. Well, my brother passed away at the end of last year, at the end of 2023, and it was a tragic. He was 51 years old and leaves behind three children and it just was it's the first big tragic death In my immediate family, my birth family. And so kind of wading through the muck of that. You know, early days you go into like survival, right? Like what needs to be done. Planning all the services and getting home and calling your family and talking to them and really processing. At one step at a time. And then what inevitably happens is you step back into your real life.

And you wrestle with this whole thing a lot for me has been done privately because I live so far from my. They're in upstate New York and I live in California. And so there was like a loneliness to it. There's the athlete part of me that's like, oh, well. You know this is just life and I can just work my way I can just keep on keeping on and it's all going to be fine well you know grief knocked on my door actually grief broke through my door about four weeks ago and forced itself into my house and into my life. And it's just totally floored me. I've gotten sick, which I very rarely-- Get sick. I think my immune system kind of shut down. I'm a very regimented person.

Various reasons, but talking with my therapist and stuff, I've really learned so much about the things that I never really wanted to think about through this process of grief. She explained to me that it's like this portal that opens. Up when some sort of tragedy happens in a person's life, whether it's a death or even a near death. Experience or a diagnosis, there's this portal that opens up to what matters most. Like You get to like leave all the BS behind. And it's like, what really matters? And though it's. It's like staring at the sun. It hurts and it's scary and it's confusing. And nothing really makes sense, but because that portal's open, you have the ability to kind of go towards--

and face some of these fears. So I have always had an extraordinary fear of death. Like what is actually happening there? What is the experience? And this portal opening has given me a little bit of a-- Breath and time to work into it. I'm not sitting here saying I figured it all out. But man, grief is really something. Kind of brought me to my knees. And this is actually the first time I've experienced real grief sober. Almost eight years sober early April. And so what I've noticed is that grief has this train of all the cars of grief that you've ever experienced. And it's like carrying all of the history of the trauma or you know...

Grief of losing your childhood or heartbreaks. It's just this long train and so that kind of just like flowed right into my home many weeks ago. And it totally floored me. I've been like kind of sad and. The word i've been using is i've been filled with sorrow. And quite a bit of work around it a lot of bargaining trying. Of understand it, trying to figure it out, a lot of negotiating, like how could this happen and all of these questions. And i've landed today because tomorrow could be different. Along with everybody else on the planet have no freaking clue what is happening or what happens when we die and i will not

I'll never know. And I am learning to start to think about accepting that as my reality. Now, I don't know how long it will take for me to actually accept it, but that's where I'm at. So yeah, that's a little bit about my story. - First of all, I'm very sorry about your loss. That sucks. - Thank you. - Second is eight years sober is a massive-- And so congratulations on that. - Thank you. - That's a really big deal. The question I have, or I guess it's more of an observation or a commiseration is this delayed reaction piece of it. I just came from a funeral this past weekend. A member of my immediate family, who was a very close college friend of mine, and spent quite a bit of time with his wife and children. And I can see it with them. It's been two months since Ed died, and they've been in this go-go mode of sorting out the--

Finances setting up this incredible, incredibly beautiful memorial that I went to over the weekend and it reminds me of when I was a Journalist I used to interview people in the aftermath of terrible tragedies you know parents who'd lost children people in war zones after earthquakes or tornadoes and there was this almost like a Giddiness sometimes, you know, like it wasn't real for them yet and my fear for my friend Ed's wife and children is, and they were able to articulate it, so I think they see what's coming, is that once the motion stops, the emotion is gonna come in. Anyway, so I just said a lot of words. Does that all sound familiar, given what you're going through? - So familiar. I mean, death is dramatic, right? And I'm sure that there's probably some--

I don't know it, but I'm sure that there's some sort of physiological science and response that's happening in our bodies whether it's you know More adrenaline or dopamine during these times so that we can actually survive, probably survive. Mechanisms in place when real trauma hits and real grief hits and that can't be forever lasting right and so When those settled down, I know that feels like it was the case for me. I was like kind of riding this high, so to speak. The grief train. And there's just so much to manage around somebody's life especially when somebody tragically passes away. Who happens to be your brother and who happens to have three children and. Dealing with all of the stuff around his assets and stuff going through and.

Talking to his children and figuring out what their situation is. And the problem is is they have, I'm sure state attorneys and lawyers and doctors and stuff and morticians have a checklist of all the things that you need to get through and that's great. And every person who dies is very individual and different. And their needs are gonna be different. And so trying to manage all of that takes a certain. Amount of energy. So I felt this way because I had to deliver his eulogy. I was like kind of mind over mattering so much of my personal experience in those weeks after he passed away so that I could get through it. Knowing kind of in the back of my head like i'm just gonna have to do with this later and then you know luckily the later wasn't too far down the road i've been. You know it's just hard.

It's hard to understand that somebody was here and then they're not and they never will be you know death is so Permanent it's just such a permanent endeavor You have to kind of rewrite the story that you had of yourself. You have to re... Claim or say things different like, you know, I have six brothers and sisters and five are still living like that never occurred to me before that I would have to maybe do Of math when it relates to like telling the story of my life. And so it's just so sad. We miss him so much and he was such an important person in all of our lives. I get it because I think for me in my alcoholic prescription pill days, I was more keen on just drinking away my sorrow or pretending to drink away my sorrow.

Or dealing with it. And so I feel grateful for my sobriety to kind of wholeheartedly experience grief. Completely conscious and awake and aware and it sucks like there is a good Reason why so many alcoholics out there drink because it is hard and it is painful and I definitely use alcoholism. As a survival mechanism, as a self-soothing and a self-medicating deal with the problems and issues I wasn't capable of. Of emotionally handling and so it feels really good that I'm capable of doing it sober and completely awake and when this grief shows up it's like it just has totally floored me and I'm a very like Person and even my wife she's like hey like are you doing okay?

disconcerting when you see somebody who's, for the most part, chooses to live happy and positively. And And that person is a little bit more not that. I wouldn't even say negative, 'cause it's just like, I'm just sad a lot. And trying to manage. Which feeling sad a lot is tough for somebody like me, for sure. - Has it been a challenge to your sobriety? - No, not at all. God, that ship has so long sailed, thank goodness. It makes me feel super grateful, like even more. Like this doubling down because even though it's hard, like I feel deeply that I'm living. I'm like among it and that knowing how almost flippant and short life can be, I will be able to feel like I've lived so.

Fully in these last eight years of my sobriety. It's that what are the things that I feel like most proud of in terms of my life's achievements. Coming up, Abby Wambach talks about her definition of the often misunderstood concept of self love, how every experience, even the terrible ones, or at least seemingly terrible ones, can be an opportunity, Those lines how her arrest for drunk driving was the best thing that ever could have happened to her in her opinion. you - I've been doing this before. As you know, I have the great privilege of working from home. So sweatpants, sweatshirts, comfortable t-shirts, I'm in the market for all of those things, especially when the price is right.

On recently to a company called Quince. And I've been wearing a bunch of their stuff. If you watch the YouTube version of this show, you will probably see it. They have high quality pieces that never go out of style, that you will be wearing year after year. They've got all the seasonal must haves, like 100% European linen shirts from 30 bucks, performance polos and versatile flow knit active wear. The best part, all Quince items are priced 50. To 80% less than similar brands by partnering directly with top factories. Of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible menu. Manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. I was padding around the house last night in my quince sweat pants. They look good, they feel good, and it's good to know that they're produced ethically. And upgrade your wardrobe. Go to quince.com/happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

By nce.com/happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com/happier. The show is sponsored by Better help. One of the most painful states of mind in my experience is comparing yourself to other people. Enormous amounts of suffering on this score, particularly within a professional context. Back when I was in TV news... Who was getting what story I wanted, who was getting what anchor gig I wanted, all of that. And now that I'm, I guess, like some sort of influencer or whatever, I can see, you know, who's. Doing better on social media or on the podcast charts, and that is a very painful state of mind for me. So one of many. Tools I use when I'm in that place is talking to my therapist, who can help me put things in context and focus on what I actually should be spending my time thinking about.

Starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Stop comparing and start focusing with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/happier today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, .com/happier. happier. Before we get back to the show, just a reminder about the Healthy Habits course over on the 10% Happier app taught by Kelly McGonigal and Alexis Santos. To access it, just download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps. Am I hearing you correctly that in wrestling with this radical subtraction like the death of somebody

You love so much, your brother, as much as it sucks, to use your word, that it might actually be like an opportunity for growth. Yeah, well yes, and I also, I might be a little bit woo-woo about this stuff because I think that there is growth opportunity in everything that we do. And truly, I'm not like, Oh, yay, grief. My brother died. I'm gonna learn something about it. It just felt like such an obvious thing that I had been and have been avoiding my whole life. This is why my therapist said that this portal opens up, because it's happening to you. You have lost somebody. You can't not know that this thing happens. And the rest of us, you know, before my brother died, I was just walking around the world pretending like we weren't all.

Just gonna die one day. Like it's this common, and P.S., I think that we need to live that way at times because it's a hard. Truth to carry at the front of your mind all the time. And all the greatest spiritual teachers in the world, they keep death at the forefront. They keep it at their fingertips. That they can live as present and fully in the here and in the now because the truth is we just don't know when death will show up at our door and come knocking. And so to me, it's like this balance of trying not to--

Become so obsessed with it, 'cause I'm not gonna be a spiritual guru, but it's this balance of keeping it at the forefront, and at least for right now as my portal of this is open, to really work through some of the fear around death, because I don't wanna get to the end of my life and experience real life. Fear. I want to experience real acceptance and a surrendering and that I think will take some time for me. But I get a pit in my stomach when I think about that moment that I know I'm dying. I still to this day like it's something that I am working through. And my brother has just experienced this transition on the other side. I'm not a religious person by any means. I grew up in the Catholic Church.

I will never know what happens when we die, but I feel a little bit more comforted knowing that my brother went through it and I. Knew him for so long and that maybe he's like getting it ready for the rest of us. I don't know. It's something that I like to think. That maybe he's just over there setting up the house for the rest of us for when it's our time. - I am definitely not unafraid of death. Interestingly, my friend Ed, who just died recently, I had a couple of long phone conversations with him as he was dying and he was unafraid. Like totally unafraid. In fact, the last conversation he had with his wife, they were in the hospital for what was going to be just like a regular checkup and he started to And they were taking him to the ICU and she said, Ed, I'm really nervous.

And said, I'm not nervous at all. And he just, he was not afraid of dying. But I'm not anywhere close to Ed. I'm way closer to your camp. But it is comforting to think billions of people have had the experience. We will not be the first. And I find that reasonably comforting, actually. - Yeah. It's good to think about. I've actually never thought of it like that. I only think about the billions who will experience it, not the billions who have. - That's smart. That's really good, Dan. - I will not claim that as my own. You made a few references, Abby, to your past experiences with substance. You're in good company or bad company, given that I have. Plenty of experiences with substance abuse myself. You said a thing after you were arrested for DUI in 2016 and you said something that I wrote down here that I wanted to ask you about.

The number one thing I could do for myself was start loving myself again. The choice to do that saved my life. Now self-love can be a bit of a, you know, just like the type of shit that the spin instructor yells at you from the front of the... No exercise class. What do you mean by it and how did it save you? - This is actually kind of interesting because That was my way like sobriety was the beginning like choosing to no longer bring substances into my life to cover up the pain that I Internally feeling or numb. Those first days was like the first step toward loving myself. And the truth is I'm almost eight years sober and all this time I've kind of been like looking around at all these other people. My wife who's 20 years

Plus sober and I'm like looking to see how they love themselves. Like I don't get it. Like I don't understand the concept. I intellectually understand the concept, but I don't understand the practical way in which somebody. Then just goes about loving themselves. And the reason why is because there are so many parts of my personality that have reached outside of myself, whether it be soccer, whether it be drugs or alcohol. Or pleasure for worthiness. And that was how I thought love felt, like self-love felt. I thought going out there, for affirmation, for accolades, for awards, for certificates, whatever, for degrees, I thought that was how I showed love to myself and I was very wrong.

Understand that it's an inside job. And the way that I love, the way that I actually feel love for my wife and my children. The way that feels on the inside of my body feels like this expression out and I was never able to put my finger on that exact feeling for me. Myself. So what is myself? Like, what is my consciousness? What are all of these? you know the wrongs of the ladder that i've climbed so that i could be worthy or have Power or fame or whatever it is. Like, what is it all for? And I do think, at least for me. My journey is the exploration of love, both.

Learning how to find it inside of myself and also the expression of love, 'cause I love that. It's a thing that I really value about. Myself is my ability to express love and show the love that I have for the people that I love in my life. But this self-love concept, like an idea always kind of felt like. Something that other people had access to that I didn't. And it's literally not until the seventh year of my-- variety and I don't know why that number is important to me or even is important but it feels kind of important that I started to ask Glennon, like, Do you love yourself? She's like, Yeah, of course I love myself. And I'm like, But how? Like, how does that work? And honestly, the more therapy, 'cause I started doing therapy for this reason, about six, seven months ago.

To literally learn how to love myself. And... To me, like real love, even the way that I... My love for Glennon is like it's like an acceptance of that person fully and totally and that is something that I didn't understand. I didn't understand that love, the way that I define love is just like accepting fully somebody's full humanity. And I think that I had to get far enough away from the parts of myself that needed to feel, the protector parts of myself that needed to feel safe. And so those parts you.

Drugs and alcohol to feel safe. I needed to get far enough away so that I didn't feel any more shame around those times of my life so that I could fully accept even the parts of myself that on paper look like fucked up, look a little less attractive. Right the irony is like i feel so proud of my sobriety like the amount of pride that i feel for myself and love. I have for myself, for my sobriety is directly linked to how fucked up I was during the time in which I was abusing it.

So like you can't have one without the other. So coming to that understanding has been really helpful for me. And I tell this to a lot of newly sober folks. The pride that you will feel from overcoming is so important. And also the amount and the depth of your use and abuse is often related to the ink Increase in pride that you have, like the bigger the mountain that you have to climb. And so there's no shame in the depths that you've dug yourself, right? Like there isn't. Was kind of like walking around here like, What is going on? I don't understand. And then emotions come up. To understand and we are all born and raised in different families and in different cities and in different states and maybe even in different countries. And so we all have like

understandings of the way things are. And sometimes the way things are don't match with the way things are insides need them to be. So yeah, I've done a lot of therapy around it and my gosh, like that DUI in 2016 was at the time-- God, I felt so certain that my life was over, that I would never be able to survive this, that my public image. Was now forever scarred and wouldn't you know it was the very best thing that ever could happen to me and I don't condone my behavior because I don't believe that it's ever good to drink and drive. And I was super sick. And I needed that to happen. And I needed it to be so public.

Mugshot to be on the bottom of the ESPN ticker for a week. I needed that. It was so important for me and the kind of person that I am, and it woke me up. It was the thing that woke me up out of the trance. And it was like this beautiful opportunity that was like, come back to life. Here we are, you can do this. And so yeah. - I really like so many of the things you just said, but specifically about self-love that. It is the same thing as loving anybody else. It has, at least in my mind, two component parts. One you listed, which is acceptance and acceptance. Doesn't mean you're necessarily psyched about it, but you do accept it. And the second is, like, wanting the best for that person or for yourself.

As cheesy as all the Instagram latte foam art #blessed versions of it. It's actually pretty down to earth. And the how of it is kind of up to you. But there are meditation practices that are good for this. There are therapies good for this. Having good friends or a good romantic partner is part of this. But yeah, the way you see it is, I think, kind of the way I've seen it.

- Totally, I love that, I like that second piece to this, like accepting somebody for who they are, yourself included, and also wanting the best for them, and yourself. Gosh, like, if we could all just operate more through and from that perspective with life, I think the world would definitely be a much nicer place. - For me, I think what's compelling is that that basic friendliness, you can call it love, I mean, friendliness, benevolence, he has a trainable skill. That's the radical part of this, that I'm particularly interested in meditation, but. As a way to train it, but I'm not a fundamentalist in this regard. I think there are lots of ways to do it. But just because you happen, you might feel hatred on a daily basis doesn't mean...

That you're immune to this training. Like I feel it too and I've done a lot of this training. And just because you hate yourself or other people doesn't mean you can't boost your warmth quotient. You can and you're... Living proof of that having gone from a pretty low in 2016 to where you're at now. Yeah. You know, I can. I consider myself to be probably overly kind Virtue of mine, it's a value of mine. I think that we all have a respect. Responsibility in every room we walk into. We all affect it, right? And having been on team sports my whole life, I'm keen. Aware of every energy that walks into a room. Now I'm not an ember

which is really interesting because empath then takes on the energy as their own. I am somebody who's very observant and I can sense energy, but I don't let it come into effect me. And I think like. like... I don't know if this is true or not, but in my experience, it takes more energy to be cold than warm. And by the looks on the... The cold people's faces versus the warm people's faces. You will see somebody who feels open. Versus somebody who feels a little bit more clenched. Versus somebody who's judgmental. And I understand that sometimes we have these notions or we have these lives that for what

Whatever reason, force us into wanting to be more open and warm versus cold and judgmental. I get it. and Like you said, it's something that we can learn, right? It could be either through meditation, it could also be through journaling, it could be through gratitude journals, it could be through, for me, learning what actually builds my own self-esteem. I think that we, in our culture of capitalism, of thinking, That i will feel happy or better when i make this much money or when i have this many car.

Or if I have children who are going and I can pay for them to go to college, like whatever these like stories that we tell of ourselves. We forget about the fundamental need to feel good. About ourselves first? Like what really makes me feel good about me? And so I've actually thought about this a lot since retirement. You know eight nine years ago because I was a really confident soccer player and soccer brought me So much self-esteem, playing on the best team in the world brought me so much self-esteem, right? as well. So when I retired, I was very concerned with how I was going to feel about myself. And this is actually what was the big indicator of my substance abuse at the time.

I was really nervous about my retirement. I didn't know what the hell I was gonna be. So since sobriety has really taken a front seat in my retirement, I have learned. The things in my life that bring me self-esteem or actually suck self-esteem away from me. And I really try very hard to-- Do the things in my life every day, even the stuff that I don't want to do like workout every day and you know sit down and do an hour of busy. Work or 30 minutes of busy work to make sure the family is organized or you know whatever it is like have to drive my kids and sit through another soccer practice or another soccer game like in the parking lot by the way folks don't go sit and watch your kids practice. Let them go out there on their own. Sit your ass in the car. Do not go and watch their practice. Practices are for them. Yes, just a little tip, a little parenting tip there. I have learned that.

Self-esteem is like the most important fundamental thing for me at the basis of how I get to learn what my own process and feeling of self-love and self-acceptance looks like. 'Cause I do wanna feel like, not that I'm winning at life, but that like I am doing the best that I possibly can right now, and P.S., like these last couple of weeks when grief hit, the best I possibly could do was like one hour of work. was like one hour of work. And then I would go lay down for the rest of the day. And I kept asking Glennon, like, Are you okay? Like, I'm so sorry 'cause I'm a caretaker by nature and I have a role in my family and, you know, food.

Who needs to be cooked and fed to the family and the kids. She just kept saying, Of course I'm okay, and I want you to rest. Take this time. 'Cause it's precious. These moments where the world does get to slow down and almost come to a stop. We can think, oh God, this is so uncomfortable as it has been. It's also precious because it's allowing me to fill up and to have faith that I can take care of myself, even when tragedy strikes. Faith that... Self-esteem and the way we build it in a normal day might look different when you're suffering through some sort of tragedy. You can't just get up and check a list every single day because we're all such complicated beings. We have so many different

Things that are always siphoning through. And so it's not like a one size fits all. Like yeah, I do have a bunch of stuff that usually make me feel pretty good about myself that have not worked over the last three weeks that have had no. Impact and no increased value in my life. So I just, do I keep doing them or do I just like sit and do a proper It's like my sitting shiva, the thing that Jewish folks do after death, it's the way, it's like you just gotta sit in it. You gotta sit in it and let it move through you. But I'm still kind of in it too, so it's like the first day that I. Like I'm a little bit more normal than I have felt over the last three or four weeks. - Tell me if I'm hearing this through like--

I'm hearing a number of through lines in your comments, but you've used the term self-esteem a lot and I'm wondering if that's synonymous with worthiness, which you've also used quite a bit. Like even right from the jump, you were joking about how you are being good at the tech gives Sense of worth within the family. And then of course, when you retired, you were wonder-- lot about where am I going to get my worthiness from and ended up reaching reflexively for substances. Again, no judgment. That's a move I've personally made myself. - Hearing this correctly, this seems to be a big theme in your mental, in your interior life. And I would say the first half of my life was dominated by worthiness and needing other people's approval. And the last eight to nine years of my life has been dominated with self-esteem, needing

Own need for approval. And of course like I want my wife to prove and I want my children to prove of me that I feel like those are supernatural ways to interact in a marriage and in relationship with your children. And I have values that I live by, but rather than the outside in world. Being the way that I live, I'm trying to live inside out. And that has actually been a really hard thing for me. Me to completely get my mind around because since. Time I was a baby I have been reaching out there for my own sense of worthiness. Reaching out there so that somebody can say that's good enough. You know, it's like when you go, and I'm sure that this is the case for my parents, but I can remember countless games when I was a kid.

And I would score a goal and I would look over to make sure that my mom and dad or my mom was there at least and they were watching and So it's like every single time Looking over to see if they're watching watching! And actually, in fact, one of our really good friends, her daughter is just starting to play soccer and she couldn't be at her game and her daughter happens to score in this game. And I had to explain to her this might be a hard experience right now and. It might be a really interesting conversation to start having with your kid about why you're doing this. Why are you out there? so that you can look on the sidelines and to make sure that your mom or parents are watching. Or are you out there because it's filling you up? Like it's just, it's an important thing.

Worthiness, self-esteem, they're very similar. I also think they're right on the edge of the opposite sides of the coin. One is more from the inside out and the other is the outside in. Coming up, Abby talks about moving from external validation to internal validation and the one very simple question that changed her life. Picture this, it's 20 minutes between your kid getting off the bus and when you get home. A fire starts when they decide to make a snack. Do your kids know who to call? Do they know how to say, Alexa, call for help? That's all they need to do to be connected. To a dedicated emergency response agent faster than industry standards.

Time and again that immediate action and information is crucial. Alexa emergency assist arms urgent response agents with critical information about you Additionally, your pre-saved emergency contacts are notified when you call for help and when the call ends. We recently got the new version of Alexa and my son's been playing with a lot. It's a comfort to me as his parent to know that there's this... Emergency assist feature on there. So for that added layer of protection for your family property and even your pets, trust in. The peace of mind that only Alexa Emergency Assist can provide. Learn more and subscribe at amazon.com/alexasist. Amazon.com/alexasist. Listening to Audible helps your imagination soar whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking.

Find the genres you love and discover new ones along the way. Explore bestsellers, new releases, plus thousands of included audio books, podcasts. And Audible Originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time. More to imagine when you listen. I just ordered last night. I haven't started listening yet, but it's called God. Human animal machine. It was recommended to me by my friend Zev who you may have heard on this show. A couple months ago he came on the show to talk about his first meditation retreat. He's a great friend and I have the sense per se that this is very relevant to the stuff on this show. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including Best sellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/10% or text 10% to 500-500.

Audible.com/10% or text 10% to 500-500 to try audible free for 30 days. audible.com/10% 10% TENPERCENT. You done that has helped you move from external validation to internal validation? Yeah, well I failed at it at first. For a pretty long while, 'cause I just kind of went to what I knew. So, on in my retirement, I decided to train and run in the New York City Marathon. And that was great, but that was all for external. That was all so that it could be Cool, look cool so that my family thought I was cool, all that stuff.

And I realized that there's this link also with professional athletes with suffering and self-esteem. The more you suffer, the more you feel better about yourself and that's just like a never-ending game that you're playing with yourself. So I wanted to go one full year without suffering, physically. Because I was getting so much, I'd just go for a long run. And I would suffer through it, and I'd hate every second of it, but when it was done, I'd feel really good about myself. And the adrenaline would spike and I'd be like pumped. I didn't want that. Like it just, that doesn't feel like such a balanced way of living. It feels like I was like sobering up from professional sports because there is a trauma,

traveling to that whole world. The way of thinking, the way of actually being. So I spend a whole year not suffering physically. And so I would go on walks. I would go to the gym down from where I live and live with other people. For 50 minutes and it would be like super low-key, nothing hardcore, there's no like maxing reps, it's just like getting your heart rate up a little bit. I'd go surfing, I'd go golfing. I like started to like... Trend to doing things that I enjoyed doing, like truly enjoyed doing and I did not understand. That that was an association most people make with their fitness regimens, that they do things that they kind of enjoy.

And that has totally changed my life. Showing up every day is a virtue of mine, regardless of whether I want to do it or not. Some people call it behavior activation. I just also subscribe to the fact that motivation doesn't always come. And in fact, for me personally, as it relates to even fitness, anytime I have to do something fitness-wise, I don't even want to do it. It's the thing that's hard to do, right? And so I have learned that there's like this push

to do certain things like this excitement, this draw, and those are usually things that I love to do. And so like that excitement and the looking forward to it is its own joy. Then there's other things that I do that I am having so much enjoyment in it that I didn't even think about it beforehand, it's just happening. And then there's other things that I get so much fulfillment when I'm done with it. And I give both all three of those things same values. I don't say, Oh my gosh, I'm only going to participate in the things that I feel excited about doing, because then I'll never work out and I'll never feel healthy, right? Because the truth is the value... Is true across all of that board right like i really do love planning a good trip and looking forward to it for a few months and then i also really love being in the middle. On a surfboard waiting for a wave.

I also look forward to surfing. And then I really love feeling the way that I feel on my walk home from the gym every single weekday. Like I love that part of it. I don't like the 55 minutes before or the hour before or pressing the button on my app to have to like sign up for the class the night before. Like those are not times where I'm feeling like I look forward to it. I do appreciate that walk home and the next couple of hours and the way that I feel about myself for the rest of the day. So yeah, I think I got off tangent there, but. - Well, I think I hear something actually. Similar to my conversation with your wife a few months ago, which is that a key step in moving from an addiction to a to external validation to relying more on internal validation is just attuning to what you actually like. Now that sounds so basic, but most of us are not socialized to do this, and so it sounds

You've just tuned your dial much more finely to, what do I actually want and like as opposed to what the world is expecting of me? I think a lot of that has to do with patience. I was the most impulsive, impatient person. I want what I want when I want it. That's how I used to think. And I never. Considered to ask myself this one question, which I think So many of us addicts don't even realize we have access to the... One question and the question is, is that so? Is it true that You know because I was married when I was in the height of my addiction and honestly Addiction totally ruined my first marriage. Hmm. Bye.

Mostly because I was an alcoholic, but also I didn't have the skillset to work through. The problems that I was having in my marriage and so I just drank my problem away. And that felt easier and in some ways was easier than actually going after and attacking the problem at hand. But the truth-- - This is truth, and this is what Glennon and I always talk about, like, is that true? Is that absolutely true as Byron-- Katie would ask us to ask ourselves. Can you know with absolute certainty if that is true? And I didn't. I didn't Know we could ask ourselves these questions. I didn't know that I didn't need to have an answer.

That the world is very hard and confusing and I didn't know that you could live it without the need or what I felt like the requirement of alcohol was. So the reason why I was using is because I was afraid and I didn't ask myself. If it was true that there wasn't another way, it just felt like the only option, the only way, and I was conditioned. Believe as we all are in mainstream America, everybody's drinking and every TV show you watch and in every, you know, in every. Circle you even run in. There's so many drinkers, some of which are perfectly fine. They have no alcoholism in them. But that wasn't me, you know, that wasn't my experience. It's interesting, an observation from me here as we run up against the clock at the end of our time together.

You earlier said something about how you're not a spiritual guru and sure But like that by using your fame To be totally unguarded about all aspects of your life. I mean, that is a very powerful way to teach. People. So in just a long way of saying I am both impressed by your personal growth and grateful to you for being so open about it because I think that just doing that is... Is more helpful than you might even know. - Yeah, I remember when the DUI happened and I was so worried.

I was writing a book at the time because I had just retired and that's what athletes do. I mean honestly it's the only way I was going to make money that next year so I agreed to write a book. And I was really trying to figure out if I was going to include this in my book, this DUI, this jail, like the whole thing. And it's right when I met Glennon and she'd said to me, We in the real world like real people and the only way to go through this. Part of your story is to tell all of it. Because then you will have no skeletons in your closet. 'Cause then you will have not to worry 10 years, 20 years down the road, if your children will find out that you, that this happened and she's like. My rap sheet is as long as your arm. There's nothing to be ashamed of here. And the more you--

Can tell your story the more we can help heal each other because yeah I understand that there are. Gurus in the world, but like we're all just people at the end of the day and we're all just trying to figure this out and I don't know if I'll ever figure it out But I do know that I'm not going to shy away from the hard feelings or the hard parts of life. I mean, that's why we have a podcast named We Can Do Hard Things. It's my vocation. It's what I do for my work now. You know, I feel difficult things and I work through them. We talk to incredible amount of people who are also doing the same kind of work into me. I used to stand in front of people wearing a jersey. And I used to be so incredibly proud, and I am proud of the time that I.

And represent in this country. I know for certain that the more I-- Talk about my vulnerabilities, real vulnerabilities, People come up to me now and they thank me for doing that because yes, pro athletics is wonderful, entertaining, but nobody ever came up to me as an athlete and said, You Right. And now countless people come up to me in the work that I do and say you've really helped me save my life. And that to me is like, so much more profound and powerful. Well said. Yeah, just want to put in a plug for we can do hard work. Things, the podcast that you co-host with your wife and your sister-in-law and also for your book Wolfpack. And just thank you for coming on. It's just such a pleasure to talk to you. Same. Thank you for having me.

And we gotta get you on the podcast one of these days. - Anytime, although I... I may have the wrong chromosomal structure for your guest list. You know what? It's true. We, not even on purpose, we didn't even have. Dudes on our podcast, at least straight white dudes. And we are opening up the aperture for folks such as yourself who could qualify and not be shunned by our listener. - No, I will step gingerly. Thank you again for doing this, really. Appreciate you. - Appreciate you too. Thanks again to Abby Wambach. I've dropped some links to some related episodes. In the show notes. So if you want to listen to, for example, Abby's wife, Glennon Doyle, I've got a link to an interview.

Who I did with her not long ago. I also dropped a link to an interview I did with Byron Katie, who came up during this conversation. Just a reminder, this is part one of our boldface series. We're gonna do two separate weeks this summer a bunch of interviews from famous folks. This week it's Abby Wambach, RuPaul, and Jada Pinkett Smith. And coming up in August, we've got another week with Goldie Hawn and-- The rapper Common. Don't forget my weekly newsletter where I wrap up my favorite learnings from the week and also drop a bunch of recommendations for books, TV shows, viral videos. That I am enjoying of late. And before I go, I just wanna make sure I thank everybody. Who work so incredibly hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. We get additional pre-production support from Wamba Wu. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production...

Manager Marissa Schneiderman is our Senior Producer, DJ Kashmir is our Managing Producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Play us out Nick. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. I'm members can listen ad free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wonderi.com/survey.

>> No matter where you are in the world or in the booking process, Vrbo knows questions can pop up. That's why Vrbo offers 24/7 live support that quickly connects you with a real person, anytime and anywhere. So you can spend your time on more important things like enjoying your vacation. Vacation rentals. Relax, you booked a Verbo.

From Wondery, this is Black History For Real. I'm Francesca Ramsey. - And I'm Conscience Lee. And every week we gonna be chronicling a lot of trials and triumphs from Black folks we ain't never heard about, even though we've been doing the damn thing since forever. - Together we'll weave Black history's most overlooked figures back into the rightful place in American culture and all over the world. Because on this show, you're gonna hear a little less, - In August, 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. And a little bit more. - Sam looks to his fellow students. They just as mad as he is. He can't stop thinking about the tragic war in Vietnam and the violent backlash to the civil rights movement. It's like the whole world falling apart and ain't nobody ready to make it right. The school board could do something to change it, but they'd have to listen first. - Follow Black History For Real on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.