Is there a ten percent? Have your pakistan, your hosting, enhance hello, everyone, When I first heard about two days guest, I was- and this is not Usual for me, I was a little bit skeptical and dismissive by His work has had a genuinely profound in act on my life, and that was only reinforced by this interview, which you're about to hear a book by father Gregory boil whose my guest today first recommended to me by Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher, has been on the show many many times and, if I'm honest man show reaction to that book. Suggestion was negative because, as you can tell by him name father boil is a priest to be clear, not that I'm you know incurable hostile to religion. It's more

as a sceptic who was raised by a scientists in the people's republic of massachusetts, generally, don't think of guys religion as a source of practical answers to my problems. My resistance father boil was exacerbated by the fact that the argument that he was advancing in his book was the idea of loving people no matter what no matter how of noxious or unacceptable their behaviour? To me, that did simultaneously trickly and downright impossible. But father has been testing this notion in some of the most extreme circumstances imaginable for decades, he'd been with gang members, in LOS angeles, he is a jesuit priest who Did a remarkable organisation called homeboy industries, which is the large this gang intervention, rehabilitation and re entry programme in the world. The book that shows recommended to me and that I ended up really enjoying is called tattoos on the heart, but father boils lay

Book is called the whole language deception. it is part of a series called deep cuts where we re run popular interviews from our vast archive heads up before we do in here, that the audio quality right at the beginning of this conversation is a bit uneven, but it does smooth out as we progress wondering, plus subscribers can listen to temper, and happier early and ad free right now join wondering plus in wonder. apple or on apple pie. Audible. Is an incredible selection of audio books across every john raw from vessels. Two new released is to celebrity memoirs, mysteries and thrillers motivation, wellness business and, more as audible member you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire can audible also includes thousands of pod, including ten percent happier alongside popular favorites and exclusive new series. Some of my favorite podcast include me:

He sense with SAM Harris the political scene from the new yorker, the happiness lab with lorry santos powers that be daily with Peter Hamby pivot, hosted by kara, swisher and former guest scott galloway. the watch with Chris ryan and anti green long- the political gab fest slate. new members, can try: audible free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text ten percent to five hundred five honey. That's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text, ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible free for them. Today's audible dotcom slash ten percent. Never say it in an air being be before and thought half maybe my place could be in there being B.

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Father vagary boil welcome to the show, thank you great to be here. This before we start a recording. I'm a long time fan, as is my long time, meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein, who introduce me to your work and talks about you quite a bit. You ve been quite influential for him and so by extension, me so again long way of saying I'm really happy to meet you. Thank you. I thought maybe would make sense fur listeners, you don't know much about you to start with a little bit of story of homeboy industries. Can you tell me how start in what is doing today. Yeah, oh boy started in ninety mediate one. It was passed her of the poorest paris in los angeles, and it was nestled in the middle to very large public housing projects we gardens and a village, and at the time it was the largest grouping of public housing west of the mississippi. So we had eight gangs at war with each other, which.

Unheard of, and public housing. And so consequently I started to bury kids for the ninety mediate and four weeks, do I buried a kid named. Jacob was by two hundred and fifty fifth kid that I buried who was killed, because of game violent. So we just started a school because there were so many junior high aids gang members who been given the boat from their homeschool school, nobody wanted them, and so the school led it to a job program where we tried to find felony friendly employers, and then we couldn't find that many of those so we started a maid screw landscaping. Crew graffiti removal, crew, to build our child care center at the church. All made up of members of the eight rival gangs, And then, after the unrest, long story short a movie producer border, no,

bakery that had ovens that didn't work, and so started homeboy bakery. So Now, where the largest gang intervention, we have re entry programme on the planet, so about fifteen thousand francs a year wander through our doors in our headquarters in chinatown, but now we have to- social enterprises, restaurants, recycling, silk screening but is to have a full service thing healing is probably the centre piece of it deserves eighteen month training programme which, more healing centric than anything else, so we ve been doing for thirty four years. Everything credible way done you and your team and everybody whose participated there has to be a stressful job, to put it extremely mild. And you ve been doing it for more than three decades how do you live with the stress and sadness, and all the other emotions that must accompany this work,

say their tracks. The more you practice unit, which is to stay anchored in the present parliament and are somehow delight in the people who were in front of you we have a stressful week last three people just their kind, afraid and their nerves are kind of jostled? Then jackie the edges, and so it take just about anything to get people to be triggered into start fight. Sir, are you Then sir you're have having two separate people, so we had kind of some moments last week that were quite stressful, theirs. And then there's burying kids, which continues and you know you just have to kind of put death in its place, which is always important as part of your practice. so that it doesn't have power over you. It doesn't mean you don't the grief, yummy new,

allow it in and make room for it, but you're not toppled by it. Can you say more about putting down in its place. What do you mean by that specifically Well, you know there was a homey, nay more animals. Brother was gunned down, died in his arms and the guys who shot him came back to make sure that they both were dead, and so he, tended that he was dead and when he came back to work it worked at homeboy and I called into my office. We were talking about the death and he said: death is a punk and that's really meant different from Jesus in scripture and death. Where is your staying in death? Has no power us over us and death? Couldn't hold them was another passage. so when more himself, one self, maybe five.

Years later was gunned down in the street. He was playing football with a bunch of neighbourhood, kids and someone came in and saw and killed him, and he was much beloved and people were just- being- and we had our morning meeting- and I quote at him and said, death is a punk. You have kind of decide. What are the things that are more power folder in death and what are the fates worse than death And those are two very important lists for every human being to compile, and there are plenty of obviously plenty of things more powerful than death and there are plenty of fate worse than death, and so putting down in its place somewhere low low on the list, so that death. Has no power, no sting

so I mean you're always trying to kind of have a practice that leads you to an internal freedom. You know like the dalai lama and when he was asked about his own personal death, he said names of clothing and where you wanna be all have what he's having so it's kind of an important piece? I think, what's on your list of the things that are more powerful than death and the fates that are worse than death? Well, The most powerful thing in the world is discovering your true self in loving and nobody can touch it. Then death is applied. Truly them. So that's the whole thing Is to be able to find your true self and loving once you find that you know your sturdy and, of course the world is going to throw at you what it well, but you won't ever be toppled the fear that sturdy If you're, that resilient born of I know true self ended

in loving and that's hugely more powerful. Of course, not knowing, that is a fake, worse than death and so in one homeboy. It's like the buddhist thing. You know o noble, born, remember who you really are so well. He's trying to remind people of the truth of who they are so. They will inhabit that truth and they will become that truth. and no bullet can pierce that and no four, prison walls can keep that out and death has no power over that, because it's that huge so that's the goal. You know at homeboy the ideas you create a safe place where people can be seen, and then they be cherished and so systems change. When people change and people change when their cherished. So I think neural science has taught us.

human beings are in other inclined to believe the worst about themselves and the first about each other, and you can actually change hard wiring, you know bored cherished, they can come to see, Normally born and dick remember who they really are, and you do mutually you do this with each other, and people inhabit their common dignity and nobility in each other's present, Senate's utterly reliable? Ok, you ve said about seventy five things that I need to follow up on Brace yourself. Let's go back to discovering your true self in loving, because I can hear too potential thoughts, Rising in the minds of listeners in response, one is what is that actually mean headway, grog, that beyond the grand

the phraseology, and second, is, if I understand it, how do I we do that. How do I discover my true self in loving. Well, you know, I hope we were allergic to the idea of pulled the bar up and ask people the measure up, were completely allergic. To, and part of that is for me that sort of based on a god doesn't ask you to measure up to us to show up to your truth. Once you know that love never stopped loving, then you know that's where the joy is everything is always an invitation to joy? It's not about she. I wish you were a better person today, hey than you were yesterday. People talk that way, homes for texts may in they'll say a g it helped me to become a better man and I always say the same thing. I said you could not be one bit better. So how do we get people to a place where they see who they are where they acknowledge.

That truth. They will eventually, if their cherished enough and so that the hope is that How will be able to hold the mirror up in return? People to themselves and the sole field Its worth, as the song says,. and so you want people to know that they are unshakeable good and that they belong this community of beloved belonging. so you're taking these people of had just the worst possible beginnings to their life, just not given what we all need to thrive. in terms of emotional material, educational support, and you loving them into loving themselves and others. That's right in the promised, isn't to do good and avoid evil. What you really want to assure them is this is where.

The joy yes, and so the hope is that people will gravitate where the joy is you're, not asking them to engage in some grim duty, It's really it's about my joy, yours, your joy, completeness Jesus said, and so it's always invitation. That's not advent chain which all he's getting them to a place where they see themselves as god and then consequently see each other in the same way with it. Open, hearted, expansive spacious, love heart, and then they stop caring about Anybody return that love that you all know is not even about that. That's the truth is it's about love that never stops loving in love. Never stops loving comes from the one corinthians where it says, love never fails, and I read a translation recently that said, love.

Never stops loving, and I like that way better, because it's not about failure or success. It's about constancy. It's about! Never stopping! That's your practice! Your practice is to never stop doing that I want to pick up on that in the second, but just you doing this to be where you say so many interesting things that I don't want to lose any threats. But when you talk about not holding up a bar in requesting that the people you work with vault it I just remind me, I mean I, I know what more about buddhism than I do about christianity, but the buddha one of the things I like about him is that he is pretty. Consistently speaking to the pleasure centres of the brain, just the way, you're talkin about motivating people through joy, rather than admonition, yet in that's why it's a kind of invitation as opposed waking wagging our finger at people again? I come from a kind of a christian and that a kind of specific jesuit and then

the side order of buddhism, but I feel, like you know I remember years ago I was at a conference and I was speaking at the conference, but I was also a protest whence I was sitting down and listening to the other speakers in some I got up and he just pounded the podium about some gang intervention programme somewhere in the country was just parading the audience and he passed. On the podium- and he says, listen people, this works and I remember writing in my programme yeah, but I bet it doesn't help and I pack, and I looked at that and I thought why did I write and I think part of the deal is like discovery over. You know almost four years. Working with gang members is Everything that works helps everything that helps works. So I mean speaking from a christian perspective, we backed this on

fortunate horse, which was the sin horse and catholics we went to mass every sunday because they were afraid they'd go to hell. If they didn't so did it work. Yes did it help know, and I think that's an important thing, because you're you're talking about the buddha basically the stances. invitation in oh, come on in the waters, fine sort of as opposed to, you better. Watch out you better, not pouch. You know I mean it's like. Get your act together. Otherwise this will be consequential and bad. I just feel like if we just as a society did the things that help, but we don't get it wherever you start is where you gonna end up. If you think there is such a thing as good people in people well that that tells you exactly where you're gonna end up, if you think so,

People belong in some people doubt, but then you equally doomed mother trees, they used to say in the problem in the world, as we ve forgotten that we belong to each other. So there are no exceptions to the belonging. None zero and everybody is on Take a really good and there's no exceptions to their ears. Sometimes it my boots. Friends will say you know essential goodness are basic goodness, but I never say that I always say unshakeable good, because you want people to know that that's the anchor and we turning to that truth is what, the human journey is about. It's not achieving goodness you're already good. But if you from that goodness. Now, that would be a different story, so instead invitation, which is helpful as opposed to wear being our fingers.

Which may work in the short term, but it's never helpful. I love that distinction between what work What helps, but you ve talked a lot about our unshakeable goodness, and that is one of the assertions that you hear from many buddhists as well buddha nature. It said etc. But how do you actually know where? Essentially especially given the one needs, do no more than. turn on the news to see our capacity for bad or evil or whatever it is. You want to call it I believe in horrible. I just don't know even evil in part of it. Gang members have helped me see that so you know Forty years, I know lots of gang members. I know lots of people who done lots of them things. I've never met anybody. Evil, I've met people, despondent, I've met traumatized broken, wounded men, deeply, profoundly mentally ill people

but I never met anybody evil and I've seen a lot of horrible things, there is no question about that. You know, nobody healthy shoots up a wait, train in brook and nobody healthy invades. Ukraine. I mean it's about health enough, sir well until all of us are well, and so, like brown das talks about we're all just one king, each other home and work. Having each other into homeless and the homeless. Is there a? How do we help people in community too? feel more and more cherished I that just alters the hard wiring in people's brain. It's like brain health and you can really change this thing. I mean seen it happen. Only all the time I member of probation for many years ago talking about a kidney ferny and she said,

even try to help that kid? I said why am I liked this woman? She was a friend she's a joint, even try to help him. I said why and she said because his pure evil- and I remember, was young in those days and I had hair and I didn't fully grasped the whole but I knew she was completely. wrong and then, if you think there is such a thing as good guys and bad guys, yikes and now I Look at this kid and is now kid anymore: he's got two sons both or severely artistic. He's hard working. He loves. His wife is just one of the most gentle heroic Souls I've ever known in this is what we do to each other, and why was it unfortunate? It's just a crazy way to see the world and to see each other and so on Do you believe in horrible, like you say, just turn on the news and you're going to see horrible, but in a what, if we sought is god

What if we recognize buddha nature in everybody and you go war I think morality has never kept us moral. It's only kept us from each other, and so how do we? How do we take, that behind moral distance that we create between us and them. Well, it's the very distance. The us and them that's really contrary to what we would hope for. How do we bridge the distance out we ensure there is no daylight that separates us, and certainly buddhism want assert that separation. it is an illusion, and indeed it is, and so you wanna get to a place where its exquisitely mutual ion people are really a joint. It's just us. We had huge homeboy family picnic, which has many many many hundreds of people and again it's blackened. Around him. It's just chock full of enemies and they are brought there

kids at everybody war. This t shirt in it just says just us, but is the just the word it just in J and the tea are black, but the us is red, and so it says just us all contained in this one word in any way It's a powerful symbol. Every year, when we gather concedes are all people who shot at each other, one time or another, now they're playing each other's kids, coming father Gregory boil talks about whether he's ever had to cut somebody loose. He talks about the most spacious, an expansive notion of god and how he thinks about boundaries. it is finally sweater whether where I live in the northeast and I've been looking for, that perfect, cosy, whether I can where all season long- and that is when I found quince quince, creates time Essentials that never go out of style, including fall must have like one

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choose your free state for a year and get twenty dollars off. That's butcher, box, dot, com, slash ten percent and use code, ten percent, de and p r c anti to get this special black friday deal, plus twenty dollars off. Quick reminder: don't miss the on the go challenge a seven day, meditation challenge to help you bring mindfulness into your daily life the challenge right now by downloading the ten percent happier apt to day and starting a free trial. Given that people you work with our practicing, loving in very extreme and difficult circumstances, but- To varying degrees, that's true for the rest of us, it could be an obnoxious brother in law. would be a difficult colleagues could be, people we see on the news and chapter wondering What do you say to the rest of us who are struggle?

Where is fine in the ourselves in loving in the midst of a world that seems to be designed for hatred division. My friend, Pema chodron talks about you catch yourself and so The invitation is to catch yourself. hired wiring would directors to demonizing emanating is always the opposite of the truth. So catch yourself any at no point are. You co signing on bad behaviour, you're just saying to certain things but he's unshakeable good. We belong to each other. Now, let's roll up our sleeves, how do we help people? How do we pay attention. How do we noticed people before their buying high powered weapons? and how do we include people? How do we move people out of the

solution that depletes their sense of hope? How do we infused people with hope, for whom hope is foreign? let's change, is how you do it. Otherwise, I guess I get frustrated with it. You know it's like a man assaults agent asian woman on the streets of san francisco and we talk about hate, but and this is why we don't make progress, because it self congratulatory, I'm just hate, and I am in favour of what love congratulations, but if this guy below to us. Then it's about health, not about evil it's not about winning the argument. It's not about denouncing hate cosette. It's about me, how do we have each other. How do we walk each other home? How do we love each other in the homeless and

It's kind of why we don't make progress. You know I was reading a book, the other day, Matthew dowd, and he asserts that the reason, a hundred years from the end of reconstruction to, were you know, emmett till he says because one third of the american people did not believe. That all men and women are created equal and he said why did it take whatever sixty years from martin luther king to Donald trump pieces, big, one third of the american people, still don't believe that all men and women are created equal well, I think he is, I think, he's pointing out the right thing now point the way you know where they bad evil stupid, jerks or do they belong to us than they are unshakeable good. Will then that's right to vote Nobody well our whole or healthy, has ever is that not all men and women are created equal. So it's about

this is not about hate it. about morality it's about home, and how do you help people find the There is. In being well, I think it's about heat? I think it's about health in some people are strangers to themselves and that's obviously problematic and that's the whole point of, as we were saying, earlier finding your true self in loving, so that make any sense I mean, I think it's beautiful. I want on package, even further get to say Matthew doubt is a friend e used to be a political consult and worked for george w bush, probably more famously and then wasn't abc news analysed where I met him because I worked there. twenty years and Matthew and I would have spent a lot of time together on and off the air. She wrote these great and I see him all the time. I'm on a variety of shows- and I thought that was an interesting point. Is, and so that gets me to wear wanted to go and maybe

It's wings, us back to patrol Dron who has been on the show before? and am I like you, I'm a fan of hers. I believe you She's got a phrase check yourself or something along those lines. No is kept yourself I mean in a lot of other contexts. She says it's when you are inclined to kind of do things or go somewhere. Or to demonize or in the list is long. It's part of your practices to catch yourself for your judgmental. Have you stand and all at what people have to carry, rather than in judgment at how they carry it. So your catching yourself, all the time, it's hard to do. Wouldn't want to suggest that this is in any way simple, but It's really hard to catch yourself and to be attentive to that. All that I met people on recovery will say one day at a time and I always think well that's why too long now as in? I think, even a minute,

one minute at a time, while even that's why I've kind of reduced to one breath at a time with every breath, you take your catching yours Well, it's hard at home boy, because people will color outside the lines and you have to catch yourself and say: okay, what languages that behaviour speaking to me and that's hard, because in a you must say: well, he knows what he's doing and he's just trying to pull the wool over my eyes and he's violent because he's a jerk and catch yourself and of course it always I presume that the answered every question is compassion, but you can't do that once and for all. You can't do that as you pray- and you said in the morning, whatever your practices and you're, good to go for the day now, not one day at a time. It really is every breath. You take your cherish

which keeps you from. Judging you ever governments, this up only all the time I mean that's. Why, as I think you know it's frustrating for us, because we think we arrive at some answer and were good to go, but that's why they call it a practice. You really have to work at it. and you constantly have to I'm kind of a man of mantras, Montrose always return me too the present moment, and I try to fill a space that way, with a variety of kinds of things. That will in a kind of montrose that will kind of remind and me to delight in the person in front of me to listen to notice. To be the notice of god in the world, all easier said than done. Well, imagine Joseph daul seen before or who you may or may not know with an incredible meditation teacher. He too is a man of mantras. Just for anybody who doesn't know what a monterey is, but it's a word that can have a lot of meanings, but one of them is just to serve a useful phrase that you

return to as a north star, a pole star for your own behaviour and thinking and actions, and one of josephs montrose is you, which is love no matter what now the first them heard that I thought okay. Well, that sounds a little. I don't know. Clear impossible or both but I did very useful. What I'm confronted with somebody who I very tense. Two demonize, either for silly reasons having to do with interpersonal, whatever or for big. Eighty, you go, political reasons, because I'm seeing him on the news and I find him of noxious or harmful. So I guess I'd love to You say more about love, no matter what and how what your thoughts are about. I know you liked it don't like to the bar is for us to vault over, but how we can use this as a way not to beat ourselves up for failing to vault over the bar, but as it is awaited, direct ourselves tore joy. Yeah, I more of my expression, is with no matter what this and I

I use it when I talk about the one for smooth god or the no matter, what business of god the kind of a no matter what nus, but it shouldn't be that hard for people to kind of connected, because- and I don't really recall everything that it too low- no matter what its that no matter what news, because parents and grandparents there's a decided. No matter what this so then pretty soon, disappointment and discouragement is not part of it. Vocabulary because everything's with no matter what business no matter what. And you know, I'm always there gang we have an expression till the wheel Fall off and they loved that they'll say I mean your corner till the wheels fall off.

But even beyond that, because we've all one july peas in our days where wheels actually have fallen off, but even beyond that, you know no matter what I'm going to be there and it's tough. You know like the other day I mentioned we had a hard week and then there was a kid came in and having a bad day, and he just bombed on this guy, they just big old, bra, leaving each other with people, I guys and then I already know how this goal separated arm. He was just blind with rage, so I had to kind of graham and put him up against a car, and I had to say This shit out and he calmed down in a car, came to retrieve him and he got the car. We already know how he's going to feel that, worse than the black, in the bruises is: will I cut him? Loose, sign immediately texting them,

you're, trying to convey a no matter. What does not well did you ever disappoint me today, He doesn't need that. He already knows that. That's the expected response Then, two days later, we asked to see me in I set up a time when nobody else was around because he said a moment in his life where he doesn't play well with others. So it came to my office on Sunday and it was just so beautiful because you wanted. Be able to say that the day will never come when I won't be proud to call you my son, they won't ever come. When I cut you lose the day is We won't ever happen where I say: well, that's it for me and that's not such deal parents. Do it only every day. So anyway, it was very healing, and I don't feel like that's one have to manufacture You know I've ever felt like they were just words and its uneasy.

thing to do, because if you see people who they are- and you know their pain- and they know you know what they carry. This kid has just been said. the end up and so abused and so neglected in violated and that's the whole point is: if enough cherishing happens, then it really alters the brain chemistry. Have you ever had to kill anybody loose. You ever feel like people are taking advantage of you no matter what does. No. I never feel that As I was interviewed via Anderson cooper, and he asked me a question about. He says the cops say that gang members take advantage of. You went so warm by said war. How can they take my advantage? If I'm giving my advantage so years late, he came back and we were in the whole boy bakery before we started a film. He says you know all my life and always say that people are taking advantage of me, and I always quote you. He said, and I suppose

Do I get any residuals for your, but again it's like. No. I never happened. That's never happened where now we let people but we always say. Oh, my god, we love you come back when you're ready its low, but like rehab everybody's met people who ve gone to twenty rehab and it takes because the rehab is finally good. It takes because somebody has finally surrendered, and the gang members who run homeboy industries all of them but took him four tries before this, Well, then, to not resisting their own goodness and coming to terms with it done to them coming to terms with what they ve done, and now they have the courage of their own tenderness chosen to walk in their own footsteps and it's quite remarkable to watch, but then

wanna be a sturdy rock solid place that they can return to when they are ready, none. has anything to do with good. sir morality it just to do with ready and that's kind of neutral from your perspective, though, and from the perspective of anybody who aspires to a no matter. What this that does not if I'm here, you correctly preclude wise boundaries. You may at times have to send people away exactly so people. always kind of nervous about responsibility, personal responsibility, accountability, boundaries and I think it's less of an sudan. People really insist that it needs to be, and we, battle internally at homeboy. All the time give him his last check. You know People are inclined to do that, but I think it's always a man, Your oath, you know the people done the work.

I welcome their own wound. They will not be tempted to despise the wounded, and so that's what you want to fast. In your leadership, people who, recognize, wound and pain, rather than this guy's a jerk. Let's give him his last check years ago. I can remember: we have always silk screen and embroidery and its factory that's kind of off campus, but it's been around for I don't know thirty years or something so the guy who runs it. He called me one day and he says you know that guy hector, the guy you sent me and I said yeah and he goes well. He doesn't want to Be here I so well. Where is he right now we're here I say we trust me they didn't want to be there? He wouldn't be there now. How Is he there he's hard headed in belligerent and attitude? No yeah these there? The world operates differently, and I

reject the notion were people say shouldn't you be preparing them for the real world. In my responses who says, the real world got this right: I'd much rather be a counter space World homeboy is trying to be the front porch of the house. Everybody wants to live in. How do you propose different way of belonging and community of tenderness in a community of beloved belonging where people risk the tender glance and then they is to become that tender glance in the world, and I just think how that's how the world changes. You know you stole the tipp jar I mean whatever it is. You do, I suppose, have consequences, but you never closed the door to anybody and we ve had people. Do foreign, horrendous things, but it's part of our Dna at homeboy well

no matter what news is part of our dna yeah back when you're ready, because we think you're just amazing. They don't believe it Come back coming up, father boil talks. The story behind the title of his latest book why we burn out when we make our actions all about heroically saving the day and why he does not focus on outcomes. This holiday season, you might be looking for nutritious convenient meals to keep you energized on jam pack days factor is is number one ready to eat me, delivery service, and they can help you fuel up fast for breakfast lunch and dinner they deliver chef prepared, dietician approve, ready to eat meal straight your door. You can skip the extra trip to the restore and the chopping prepping in cleaning up to, while still getting the flavour and nutritional quality. You need

from factor sent my family a whole stack of ready. Eat meals and I power through them. There were excellent, really really quite good. Send me more business get factor and enjoy eating well without the hassle ready in just two minutes: no prep, no mess s head to factor meals, dotcom slashed, percent fifty and use code. Ten percent fifty to get fifty percent off that code. Ten percent, fifty at factor meals, dot com, slash, ten percent. Fifty to yet fifty percent off. The show is brought you by better help, this time of can be a lot and its natural to me. Well sadness and anxiety. All the holiday gatherings and activities come with stress therapy, though, can be a breakthrough. Something to look forward to to help you feel, grounded and arm.

Wisdom tools to manage the whole thing like any family. Paris family has its drama. So talking to my therapist can really help me. Both prepare for big events and calm down afterwards if you're thinking about starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, convenient flexible and suited to your schedule, find your bright spot it's holiday season, with better help visit better health dot com, slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, h e l, p, dot com, slash happier. You used the word god a couple of times and I think it is no surprise to you. You know this, but a lot of people in this audience. My audience will find that word or a little triggering an you write about in your bus recent book? You you write about some of your relations with the aforementioned, permit children, a legendary this. None who said it, I'm gonna

you hear you write my friend I'm a children. One evening it you see allay said the quiet part out loud, while yours can grab. I kept thinking. I wish he'd stop talking so much about god and she has said- and this is quoting her here- that what was agreed. To her about buddhist teachings is that these are her words. Our basic nature of mind and heart is open. The body sappho, which is the ideal of somebody who is committed to leaving the suffering of all beings. The bodhisattvas wants to remove the greatest level of suffering, which is what gives rise to deep hatred, do you have to attribute this worked, something like god or something seemingly outside tides whether what how do you respond when she and others things like this to you. Where are you that night- it was an evening with payment, children and gregg boil, and so there were People in the audience like myself, who believed in god, so I said-

you see, I don't think it's preposterous to believe in god, I'm just trying to get people to stop believing in a preposterous god- and I think that's front in part of the thing ass he got to the very end of the evening. Was acknowledges this her own wounded medicine as a catholic, and I get it at some of it is just tradition. This. This is amazing is an important thing to me in the mystical view of the world, and I ll people like julian norwich and ignatius of loyal, learn, Jonathan cross, and and so I like all this eclectic stuff like my friend mirror by star who says once you know the gotta love you fire all the other gods. I like the activity of. Hiring gods, and I think it's a healthy thing to do. But you know I come from my own tradition I don't feel threatened by anybody else's tradition effect. I always feel enriched. You know we're ok

It be surface it's all. The same language is important, because it's kind of how we shape the road walking on but Fortunately, people are so saddled by horrific notion, Richard roar always says is true that your created in the image and lightness of god, but it equally true that our image of god creates us so I'm kind of more interested in that is finding the most spacious expire ass of notion so that it can create you, but people are triggered by their neanderthal prehistoric notions, or their third great notions that keep holding them back my virtual director is the gang member name, surgeon, in every morning we email, repulsive extremely early he's married has three daughters. He runs a program called gods, pantry,

which addresses food insecurity and pomona California used to work at home boy a long time ago, drug attic gang member. So we just get the reading from the day for mass and in a word It's up earlier would write a kind of a reflection, a brief sentence. Couple sentences, and then he writes back and then I write back anyway. It's very enriching, but we're always encountering a god. We don't believe in the wrathful god, because they'll have something from them. hebrew bible or even stuff from the new testament? Where you gonna know, and he always says you need to have the mystical filter. You know you need to read all this stuff is kind of with a grain of salt and you read it and you go yeah. I don't believe that Do you believe that is an acknowledgement that scriptures? inspired by this also imperfect its human beings trying to do that. Ass, they can have a bay makes sense of horrific things that have happened, oh god must be

pissed off and you go okay. Nice try not true, and it's never been true. It feels like a healthy exercise that gets you beyond your third grade, god that still torments and keeps you in line. Maybe it worked, but it never held. So that's the preposterous god, the wrathful god. But how would you describe they not preposterous, odd, I mean you ve, used the phrase, no matter what this, but maybe you could put, a few more words on what I imagine. Is the ineffable in terms of building out how you conceive of god. The point is image is why you tell stories you know. I had a friend who took care of his dad who was dying and he was quite old and torture of his life. You know he would read em to sleep in the way. His father had done so when he was a kid but his father.

Just lie there and stare at the sun with a smile and the sun was quite tired. Like I've been in care of you all day. I want to go to bed and please fall asleep in the father would close his eyes, but then he couldn't help himself. He pop when I open and then after he died. My friends said I realise that he just couldn't take his eyes off his kid. So there you have an image, it's an image of god or a whole me. The other day was talking about how his father, when, in fact, are always quite problematic for gang members. Almost always for this one kid, his father wasn't. He said he would show up every sunday Visiting at juvenile hall and when he'd get up to leave, he had big tears in his eyes and He would say. I'm not,

we're gonna leave your side, you know it and then these things become kind of the image of the god we actually have, rather than settling for some partial god or a homey who were was just going through a horrendous time and he can retrieve and image of his mom kind of walking him while he sobbing, when he was little and all she kept saying cause. It was he's a father and junk attics and quite abusive and she would just say to him: I'm sorry! You have to go through this well again, then that becomes translated to this is the god we actually have. I mean I have a million images that come by way of people trying to put words to what it looks like. and you know the guy who can't take her eyes off of yours- is a pretty good one. behold the one beholding you and smiling any we unite, because I think poetry, words stories, it's the only

we have and new kind say it's like that, but Ignatius of all of the founder of the jesuits used to say he always said the guy. whose always greater, which to say always greater than what ever notion we'd land upon in that's an important caveat. You know, even when you land on it now is even greater than that which is always heartening, because then it set you off honour, scamander to find the even greater image How do you know that is a god and that if there is a god that here sheer they is the god that you think is not preposterous, Is it just a matter of faith or working derive confidence,

I don't need to have more confidence than I have that the other thing you know people talk about all that moment kind of shook my face. I don't even get that everything is shaping your face. so, is the thing that shaped it's never shaken and then talk about preposterous people like him. Leave it in the god because of this horrific things. Happened in and that's always they had scratch or for me, the poet roomy says that love is god's religion and that's what I believe in It's an important kind of wages, stay anchored in joy and in a mist the conversion of seeing things in the most expensive way, and we ve been saddled with puny god for a long time, and it's not very helpful if I have to know home girl named nellie. She had suffered more things, anything that could be found a human being had befallen her in

in prison our kids taken away drug attic, raped, engaged in sex trafficking drug, selling gang banging and when she was in my office, and there are two images here: one was she said she needs some help, so I was writing a check for to pay your light bill or something and then she leaned into me on at the front of my desk and she tears in her eyes, and she said I wish you well god and laughed. I say why she said. I think you let me in the Heaven which just broke my heart: legally and two and it made me cry, and I forward with big tears in my eyes I said nellie if I get to heaven you're, not there, I'm not staying, and I remember thinking, there's a kind of that everybody has that

however, that means that you have a certain T. That's unshakeable that you know, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a place that didn't allow nellie of that? I am utterly certain the other image he came to me She was doing well and not getting high and see a dream that she was and a big old party kind of it. Hence, in the era can a party in a big hall in was dancing with god, which I just love the image of it and- she said, all these other people, and then she goes out of her way to say more important people than me kept trying to cut in then again, she got very emotional and she said god, wouldn't let them that the dispute trying to korean and dance and There's an insistence

that God wanted to keep dancing with her of all people anyway, it's an image and then you kind of to it and you go well. That's true. I know that that's true, there is little things you land on where you want to get to a place where you say: that's what I believe I couldn't caught the verse or something, but that's what I believe and no one's gonna do so me from the god who wants to dance with nellie of all people. Coming father boil on the story behind the title of his latest book. Why we burn out when we make it all about saving the day and why he does not focus on outcomes after this. I doubt it will job in this interview of getting you detail,

about your network, which is called language. What do you mean by the whole language? Will Simon issues Hates my titles, god love em, and so every single one of my three books they bought my titles and all my titles come from things. Homey said so taxes on the hard comes from a whole me. I had said something to them and we were on the phone and he was silent, and he said tat gee, I'm not attached to that on my heart, and so that was the title first one second book was called parking to the choir and that was the homey. Who was one of our bakers, who was kind of colouring outside the lines I had to have the talk with them and ass I was having the talk about his attitude. He stopped me says: relax you're barking, do the choir

which I loved- and I remember I wrote down. They said title of my next book and then the whole language comes from a homie who was talking about one of his homies from his gang, his neighborhood, who had come to this country at seven with his mother from Uzbekistan, and they were wanting to deport him. He had done a ten year stretch in prison, We joined a latino gang in lincoln heights story. But I asked this guy Louis said he'd. You know this guy David. He goes oh yeah. We call him russian boy and I was in jail with him and he was myself in every night. He would go out to the pay phone and he would talk. To his mom in russian and he was very impressive that and then he said, damned gi. He spoke. the whole language which cracked me up, because that was his way of saying fluent

I thought. What is the thing we want to be fluent in? You know what, be the whole language, so that some title is the power of extravagant tenderness. So that The thing we want to be fluent we want to be. just anchored in loving kindness, knowing that kindness is the only non delusional response to everything which is to say all the others. once as our delusional rage, anger, self righteousness, High horse seen us everything else is delusional, but kindness isn't so there kind of a whole language and its a way of seeing its MR kohl, its Do you find the thorn underneath water pipes? carrying. Can you see the pain rather than just behavior. So anyway, that's kind of the whole language, do terms like loving kindness, love kindness

tenderness a word. You used a lot in this conversation and is, as you reference the part of the subtitle of your new book. How do they, words go over with homilies, you know they get. It is not so much about words the thing is: can member who is talking about this the other day? How started they were. Somebody was visiting a jesuit priest from argentina and he was just she was being led around by a guy named Joseph and had tour and he was showing on tap to remove all and where they do. european classes in the bakery in the home grown cafe he was walking around, but every time he left the place where he had. just shown this guy? He would help somebody there. You know in the tattoo removal- and these are big ol gangway I've been to prison, and he was telling me this, which we cannot take it for granted.

Everybody was hugging each other and as they you left each other's presents. They would say I love you and it's kind of extraordinary. I come big iris family, where we didn't We do that, but ever but he does it at home. We only all the time it's just everybody's hugging, each other and everybody telling each other how much they love them, and it's just a constant thing and this jesuit in spanish, telling me because by cash I get I never. This was the forum and I said, yeah- I guess you- I guess I did But it is a thing that absolutely, then, suddenly, all the time, so I mean the homes are quite comfortable with the fact of tenderness, not sure they give speeches. of tenderness, but they live as though the that truth was true and they put first things recognizably. First, and they receive the tender glance, and then they move to offer that tender glance to sign.

But he who could probably use it so it it's kind of second nature. There people notice that when they come in, you know, I'm not so sure we noticed that all the time, because it so natural as reference the subtitle, the power of extravagant tenderness. What exactly do you think it's power is well, I think, soften each other into a corner where they dont resist stuff anymore, I was in boston recently with homey and I had to do because zoom or something- and I sent these two always out to sea- austin and they'd, never been on a plane. They ve never been anywhere so this I saw wool was by himself at one point: it one of a kind of an old courthouse or something so he's taking a selfie in holding the phone out, but right in front of them on a park bench or two older guys can a homeless guys and

with a guy start screaming out of don't take my picture in the guy next illegals. Relax he's taken a selfish well, so we walked towards this hostility and he just says, the two of them, my name's soul, I'm from los angeles and he's covered in tattoos, and these scary, looking big guy and the guy kind of is screaming at him saying I don't care where you're from and that this is MIKE park, and I dunno what the calmer guy says don't mind us, we're crazy and so looks at how many in the that's, ok, I'm crazy to and the three of them had this conversation that was so tender and so cherishing of each other.

tat. The moment came that he had to leave. He shook their hands in the more hostile guy says to him in a very soft voice. Look I've lived in Boston all my life. Do you need directions somewhere and for me, that's what it looks like when you soften people into some corner where they are free to live from their true self in loving now, where did he get this from? Well, I think soul got it from being cherish and it's a thing he expense. every single day at homeboy and again it's utterly reliable and he began like everybody did you know what, back up against the wall and not trusting anybody, but once he found the place to be safe in ones

He knew that he was no longer being watched, but he was being seen he was freed to be cherished and softened into this corner, and now he can do it, and now very was so. He didn't walk away from the hostility oddly, he walked right towards it and when he told me that story, I thought yeah, that's how it works. That's house bolster evolve where you receive it, and then you offer it and it's funny when we flew home and he had given many talks, and he had never done this before told his story and from the thousands of people and got standing ovations. We're flying in the other guy with us was sound asleep. He leaned over too many says you know. I think I want to learn how to talk. Fancy talk fancy. He goes yeah. What's that language,

be speaking when the guy is gone off to work any? He looks back at his wife and kids on the front porch any waves at them. Any says tatar. But, as I said, I don't know english british, but I knew exactly what he meant that talk fancy, meant a more full inhabiting of his truth that he had had an experience of telling it in front of audiences. He had an experience of walking toward hostility and being tender in the face of it. He had this palpable experience of the power of cherishing, another human being with every breath you take in a let's all talk fancy and it's like the whole language, it being article it in your own tenderness and thing anchor and the courage of that last night.

For me, earlier in this interview, you said something about that's the way the world changes have just carries more. How optimistic argue that the world is gonna change, visa love, tenderness? matter oneness Barack Obama at the end of his term, said it. If people don't think that we ve made progress, then I dont think you ve been paying attention and I agree with him in a lot of it is The work is sort of long haul. So, if you want is short term whatever goals accomplished tomorrow, you I'm not that interested in that I've been doing this for a long time. I just notice how lots of things change even policing as much as people can say, also the things about it. I just remember the truly truly horrific battled days

Little by little, you make progress. You know you start to put a human face on people and then all of a sudden people don't want to be tough on crime. They want to be smart, we're at a different place right now, because you know people are peddling, fear and loathing, but we make progress. So I I just feel like you know, you go to the margins not to make a difference. You go to the margins so that the folks there make you different and if you go to the margins, to save the day and rescue people fix people or even make a friends. It then it's about you and it can't be about you, but also you burn out, not because you're so extremely compassionate. You burn out because you have allowed it to become about you. You ve depleted yourself, because it's about you saving the

but once you kind of say, we're not called to be successful, we're called to be faithful. I want to be faithful to a love that never stops loving. That love is god's. Religion, ok count me in, and I just want to delight in the person who's in my path and cherished with every breath. So then you stop caring about outcomes. You only want to be faithful to being faithful to that. and that makes sense to me, so I'm always hope for because I know how incrementally things change, but systems change when people change, and people change when they are cherished, and so it's not one day at a time. It's one cherishing breath at a time you that kind of cut your meet up for you. There bite size moments to be able

to reflect back to people, the truth of who they are, and then you watch them become that truth and they extend that tender truth to other people really is true. If once people cherish, they can't wait to cherish and that's how things are I always changed. This is how I would phrase that I dunno, if you endorse it, but even if you don't get results right away, in other words, the old world doesn't become, which you hope it will be immediately from living your life. This way your life and the lives of the people around. You will be way better so Why not just do it without in mind yeah, you know it's hard in a nonprofit world were funders, are saying evidence based outcomes, and I don't really care so much about that, because if it's about success, sir, comes, then I'm only gonna work with people who give me good ones right and I'm

interested in that. So you hope funders will fund you because they get it, but that's a tough cell, but you have to stay faithful to an approach. if you believe in an we're, always planting seeds. We may not see the full fruition of you're tilling the soil before we go. There are probably Well, I've been listening to you know want, are more about. You blew more about your organization. Can I gently proud you to just plug a little bit? Well, you can, you know, go to homeboy industries, dot org, and then you can see all sorts of things and we have a thing called the global homeboy network, which has been around for ten years or so, and and so we have three hundred program loosely vaguely modeled on homeboy in the united states and fifty outside? we gather every august for three days and so it's away the kind of connect rather than airlift homeboy into which it all in rome

then become the mcdonald's of gang intervention programmes for those kind of a methodology that we believe, and so people repressed country in the world of kind of adopted it to address lots of vexing, complex social dilemma and its away to be reverent of the complexity of at all. You know if love is the answer, communities the context but tenderness, a sort of the methodology, but you can go to our website and see all sorts of things in order cookies and get your t shirts and don't forget the books, the whole language barking at the choir and tattoos, if the heart, father, gregory boyle. Thank you so much for doing this real pleasure, sir. My honor. Thank you thanks again to father boyle, thank you for listening and thanks most of all to everybody who works so hard on the show ten percent happier is produced by gabrielle sacrament, justine, davy, Lauren smith and terror. Anderson deeds.

Cashmeres our senior producer we're recession. I'd remain, is our senior editor kevin o connell is our director of audio and post production, and can Regular! Is our executive producer alicia? He leads our marketing and tony magyar is our director of pod casts nick thorpe of islands. Road are seen if you like ten percent happier Hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now, by joining one replace, wondering app or on apple pie casts. Members can listen ad free on amazon music. Before you go tell us about yourself filling out a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant, hey there. I know that life is full of challenges, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Mr floss ruin

No man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity, for she is not permitted to prove himself. I'm rhine holiday, the best selling author and host to do is to pack has to pay, guess where break down the ancient teachings from the stoic philosophers, so you can apply there. Thinking the problems of modern life on the daily you'll find everything from insightful conversations to people like Matthew, gotta, aim gary v and how they ve used stoicism in their own life. Turkish show ten minute teachings on how to deal with fear and build better habits. Engine for us it doesn't have to be this inaccessible and practical thing on the daily. Still you to learn how to bring the values of stoicism into your own life one day at a time, Follow the daily stoke on the wondering app or wherever you get your part gas and you can listen to the daily stood early, an ad free right now on wondering plus, however,

it's dan. On ten percent happier I like to teach listeners how to do life better. I want to try oh hello, mister grinch. What would make you happier? Ah, let's see an out of business sign at the north pole- are a nationwide ban on caroling and noise noise noise? What would really make me happy is. If I didn't have to host a podcast. That's right! I got a podcast too hi. It's me, the grand pooh bah bah humbug, the o g, great grub that grinch from under a chance. The brainchild ataxia always about fabric attempt by the people of all bill to use my situation as a teacher will the moment so joy may the grange less it. As I launched a campaign against christmas jeer, grilling celebrity guests like chestnuts out an open fire. Your family will love the show. As you know, I'm famously great, with kids follow Tis, grandfather holiday, talk, show on the wonder, react for wherever you get your pockets,