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for maybe sake, The ten percent happier podcast andean harris again the great meditation teacher rom dos, who, sadly, is no longer with us. He once said- and this is a quote here- if you think your enlightened go- spend a week with your family. My guest today with tools to help you keep your cool when interacting with your family or anybody else. When you talk about it, kind of meditation practice known relational dharmu or insight dialogue it away. taking meditation off the cushion and into the crucible of conversation, my guest is Bart Van Melick, who teaches to veterans and also to children and juvenile detention centres. He's co author of a book called still in the city he graduated from the spear rock slash. I am s teacher training and

unity, Dharuma, leader programme, he's base in new york city. But, as we recorded this conversation, he was back in his home country, the netherlands and in this context if you're, going to hear a lot of tips about how to actually practice relational dharma and incite dialogue, which Bart calls a pressure cooker for insight. Here, we go now with Bart Van Melick Bart great to see you for common on the show. Ah, thank you done likewise. Likewise, every time I see you I think about the first time I saw you, which was my first meditate, retreat in two thousand and ten I wrote about it. It was like the key seeing the key chapter from the first book. road where I go and my first meditation retreat I'm having all these interactions with Joseph Goldstein, the moments when I'm allowed to talk to the teacher and in all of those moments, I think I mentioned but you were in the room because you're a practising with him and he was giving the others

vice their nodding sagely. So it's a pleasure to see, and you know the pleasure is very mutual dan and funny story as I have no idea what you do right, your livelihood, because I had just come to america from the netherlands. So I remember, I think Joseph said something to effect. Do you know this person I don't know, and then he didn't say anything, But later I found her. Oh it's there. It's you Well, you were there for one of the most important moments in my life that retreat really the trajectory of my life, so I will always associated with that. So many areas? I want to touch on with you, but let's start with relief.

general mindfulness. Can you just give me a very basic description of what that is young? I can't its. Let me start just a little bit about that. We as human beings, our relations by nature and a lot of meditation practices are done in a way where we bring attention to some. Thing that's going on in and If you look at how life unfolds in unfolds very nationally, so in relational meditation practices. Informal ways You learn not only to be aware of what's going on within you, but you will also get us actions to be very mindful of, let's say another person who is sitting in front of you and

relational mindfulness for premeditation will also eventually, after practice, allow you to do something that was can a mine blowing from me. and that was that I able to be connected to This body, mind and being open to another or others. Oh relational mindfulness allows you to be present with you being in relationship with other people and some times when we're just doing mindfulness drawn more internally We learn a lot also about being present with internal emotions, feelings and thoughts relational meditation, takes it another step and is to really also known as a whole. It's going on around me without losing their sense of my own body. Mind right because So often when we are engaging with people, especially when there's like a lot of content, we may be totally a hundred percent focus on them,

right and not so much aware this and so, that would be, you know to be short relational mindfulness is about. I wanna start talking a little bit practically about how listeners can practise this in their own lives, but first just a quick anecdote. I have mentioned this a few times on the show, maybe too many times, but I had a a couple of years ago I had a kind of semi traumatic experience where I did a three sixty review, where I was kind of invite did a lot of people in my life to comment anonymously about my strengths and weaknesses, and there are quite a few weaknesses, to my surprise, I was either unaware of or didn't know other people could see and miss guerrero, painful, but very useful experience, and I gave the report so long report fill with the non misquotes about mostly my weaknesses, fused france,

and I gave it to a really good friend my doctor mark epstein- has been on the show before he's a psychiatrist and and oppressing buddhist in one of his responses was it I think you ve got a fallen into a classic meditation trap of. doing a lot of meditation at that time. My life has actually do two hours a day of meditation and being focused internally, as you just said, but not enough externally. It is not uncommon for meditators, at whatever level, to become quite self aware in some way is, but not in a key way, which is how are you with other people that Zaza right to you? Does it absolutely does and What also happened for me was when I really got in touch with far more national meditation practices was doing kind of it was so humbling ice I noticed that I'm not that often

so aware, when I'm with other people, right and- and I can have a similar problem and the beginning of my practice, where more so my meditation was done with mindfulness in Lee oriented and so that we can have the first shock and arm- when I'm sharing all this with you, I'm standing on someone shoulders and his name is gregory kramer and he has is revolutionary mine and away where time I came into his class, I was actually visiting new york still living in the netherlands and ireland To go to new york inside meditation centre, and I just signed up for the only weaken I could go right- turns out he's there and I was really like oh, I was to gonna. Do I am a weekend lot of silence. That's what I wanted and this

we started in ITALY. Got me he goes. The buddhas teaching about suffering in the end. Most of our suffering and stress his people stress most of the practices in Lhasa traditions are only focused personally this practice. It I'm runnin value into called inside dialogue will exist, the bridge that gap. So my first response was- my god, are we gonna talk and method, how are you, gonna fall right and I remember my first experience I was in a die on you know just one partner. There is, in front of me, usually when I start meditating, when I'm just by myself, my mine is planning its fidgety

It takes some time for all the snow in the saddle, but here I was looking in someone's eyes guide it with some very specific instructions, and I was so present Because my mind, I thought, oh, I'm gonna be quite distracted, which I'm usually are when I'm in conversation with people. But I got really focused. We paraded roles of speaking a listening in the beginning, but it was it also, like when the other person was just listening. It felt like that person was listening me into being and it not a lot of insight into habitual energy said I have when I listened and speak with other people.

The first one I immediately saw was me planning what to say next, not fully listening. You know, I also started to see like all this what the buddha means when he says like this hunger to be seen in a certain way. I want it to be seen as they yogi who was focused, so it allowed for a ton of information and inside with the support of a lot of concentration and mindfulness? Could you can't really fall asleep on someone right and so I remember another teacher eventually commenting honest relational practice, evince a diver, naming it a pressure cooker for insight, and so it's really change. My whole few meditation handed it added another very valuable aspect of her. I can just as well be mindful of the breath. For example, extra

and when our little baby was born and he's now six. I would say in his room and instead of me Just being mindful of my belief, rise and fall, and would just look at his belly going up and down up and down. And there was still the same awareness. It doesn't matter whether it know something internally and externally and then I even tried- and it worked as well on the new york city trained pre covered. I would feel my body, but you in We reject pack like a sardine right and I could just feel the person next to me, breathe at the same time So here was thinking how this is what the buddha man, when he suggested, or we can be mindful, both internal and external, even with something. As the breath And saw what it also did. Is it We are locked his idea for me in a very visible way that our motions, are feelings

they are natural human experiences. necessarily copyrighted by or dan and then a big impact on How I'm relating to the world and relating to internal stuff ones, that I will never forget this was when I was teaching meditation in high school in chelsea in Manhattan. I would see the group of kids for a whole school year, four times a week alike. that group really connected and they actually liked doing meditation all kinds of fun games. and then I realized this group, I might actually be able to do some of this relational stuff and though, I pick them up at that time had quite a bit of training in inside dialogue and the contemplation that I invited them into was what like when you are judging school?

and a lot of you no talking what's going on. And I saw them change when I asked him about how does judging yourself manifest got quiet and it was just very concentrated talking, but everyone was engaged at the end that session in the large circle There was one young man Jonathan. I never forget he put his hand on his hard and he says. When apologize from the get go here, but I feel joy knowing I'm not the only one who judges themselves the sixteen year, all young man and when he, at that, then everyone was nodding. An arrow, and I asked nothing can you see everyone not an equal share and

was just that moment also was this A moment of youth Adam communal recognising this is the shared human experience. And so that's another very powerful aspect. that arises when you start engaging in relational mindfulness, you said so many interesting things there. I want to follow up on one. Do you but the buddha exhorting us to be

full internally and externally? That's actual in both down both rights? Oh ok, you unpack that because that's in the buddhas teachings, if you go back and read them right here, I can impact at an may, be the best way is to kind of experience them, and- and so one thing that the buddha invites us to be mine. for love is what you could call a feeling. Town and a feeling tone arises in any given moment of contact that our senses make so I'll give you an example that such a law some time ago I came home from my daily routine of swimming in a cold lake, and my hands are still called, then it feels unpleasant. So maybe it listening, you can also kenneth feel your body and just notice

Is the body having a sense of feeling pleasant, feeling unpleasant. or maybe something in between neutral just noticing way, standing or sitting on your movement. So you are aware of the feeling tone of experience and changes all the time they can be felt internally. Then the buddha also suggested to be mindful when feeling tat winds arise externally, and so maybe just imagining that someone is with you or maybe there is someone with you. You can see your surroundings. Even animals

and see when they are paying when they feel unpleasant. Experience is aid for kids or when a kind of from your perspective, they were quite neutral or when there quite happy or feels pleasant. and so I have the privilege of being around six year old, a lot and their feeling tones change quite a bit of a day, so whenever I'm aware of that, I got her loose having an unpleasant feeling com so down I'm aware of that same experience, In that same phenomena, if you will externally by for many of us have been locked in our homes, quite a bit privilege enough to have that choice. And so I've seen it Our family, let's keep it real, also a lot of unpaid, and feeling tones and divide between my wife, myself and son.

and so, when you turn into the vibe of a community that in that moment, you're part of then you could say You are aware of a feeling tone, its both internal and external, at the same time and its It's a perception, you not know a hundred percent, but we're sorry Surely wire. We can pick up on these things where we train in this way, through relational practices. We see it faster when a specific x, hearings were phenomena is happening, but it's not enough. barely happening only internally, that would be a way of looking at this. I have a six year old son too. The other day we were playing catch and arguing about who was gonna, go fetch the ball and my son, said well either you're going to be annoyed or I'm gonna be annoyed, which do you want, and I said well seven days a week, I'm going to take you being annoyed and he looked at me.

dead in the eye and say that's why you're a bad daddy that level has been thrown at me so many times, man at heart they are experts that, during your feelings, here they are and they also already know about this stuff. Yesterday I was doing another relational practice with the community. It's called dharmu contemplation, where we live had an ancient texts that are coming from the scriptures and then The community reflect on it and not just kindly, but also the felt sense of it, and we use the teaching that supposedly the buddha taught his son when he was salmon. So I really felt like this sense because it will be loose birthday soon march, twenty six and the boat ass. His the old sunlike That's a mirror for in his answer was for reflection, sir, and then

saying that in the same way you are invited to reflect on what you say do or think repeatedly and keep Can you fits fur not harming you. if it's not harming another or if it's not harming both so it's everywhere in the buddhist scriptures is relational experience and it makes total sense because. our sole relational say also felt very grateful. When I was introduced to former relational meditation practices that there was such emphasis on it in the buddhist scriptures, but not. So much in what I had in current, thus far in terms of meditation casino seriously, I was one of my first instructions was actually close. Your eyes. in one go inwardly, and in my years now I have also teaching specifically with young people

of young people in difficult circumstances were like incarcerated or homeless shelters introduction into meditation as it being something you do inwardly. My be the right first step. So what I've done also is even in explaining, especially when, if I would go in a group of young men in cars, created and I would be introduced like eighty yoga guys here and there oh, I want to do this and then they said a lot of other stuff, and so I had to kind of explain lol what, while you know they they would give me like a minute or so to go. Okay, tell me: what's your program a bow, it is about awareness. I would ask this came also my training in relational practices. I would ask in here, when you came in here. Would you that you really need to be aware of your surroundings, and I know the eyebrows good enough,

horace mann, what's wrong with you, of course, is that a sense of protection it offers? You absolutely have to constantly look look you know, watch my back, and so I went off Meditation does it it allows you to continue doing that, does that's a form of being present and it does protect you, could also apply more inwardly and see. If you can, you know, protect yourself, from all kinds of thoughts habits that man, not be so helpful in harlem, he's home. There's a man called stand color and he teach meditation. Can the two martial arts, and he would call meditation psychic self defense, like that. You know it so sometimes the way it is actually from the external instead, starting with you know, being present internally, I dunno, if you remember this. Actually We spent an evening with you at a juvenile detention centre. When, my dear dear

is really incredible work you do so as promised. I do want to dive into practice, for listeners that we, can do that would allow us to kind of experience operational eyes, this notion of real National mindfulness you described die adds work, which is where You and another person said across from one another. I don't know that us. I certainly have done diodes before it's kind of like a death match of staring, somebody's. I've is incredibly uncovered. And all her very valuable. I love that term. Would you call before a pressure cover for inside? I think the right age ray. I dont know that dialogue can be readily accessible to most listeners awoke. Maybe they will but let's talk about various exercise. If we could be as rangy as you want here that so that people at home can do this in their own lives, grain will lend me. Then start by specifically an inside dialogue. They have like some key.

instructions, and the first one is my favorite. It's called pies. And even me just saying it right now, I can kind of just feel a sense of ha and pause can mean that you stop speaking and really take some time to connect with the body, because what usually happens for me when I'm not mindful and talking with someone, I'm kind of totally lost in the content of, what's being said, have lost a sense of connection with the body And so very first that without even doing former practices- and they can be done also in groups of three and four- formerly so- not just in diets and don't have to staring people's eyes. Incidentally, it's the pause.

Novo my favorite pause or is obama. Sometimes he says some differ good stuff for me as a non native english speaker, but he will sometimes just pause, sometimes literally stop speaking, maybe. he's doing that to also we connect with the body or remembered to being aware, but when he does that he also conditions? The likelihood I started to become aware again too, and this is very concrete thing that you could do any time. The only thing that is required and that's really, where the whole the trick of meditation it. The whole thing is about is you remember, and so the likelihood of doing former practice, both internally in oriented but also the inner personally oriented that will increase the light

that you remembered a pause in daily living, so the kids, I teach alone they so often me why why do you have any tattoos hobby I'll tell him. I don't feel like. I have attached to a body a little afraid of the ok, forget that what would you put on your back be worthwhile for you, because that's what we have right wanna be remembered by something? Then in now I have a whole list of insides I could put on it, but then very prominently. I would want pies is that really gives me the gift of remembering to be present and then, when you pause usual, You got a lot of information. Especially when you're among people? Quite often there is a sense of tension, especially in the body like

The zoom fatigue that you here you know all over. It might be just from constantly leaning forward I didn't kind of having that sense. When you pause, you may be got ya this tension in the body and not to push the away, but at least least get a sense of of. I am quite tense. Also the pause will allow penny. At least for me, Do you remember being mindful with people who I'm usually so inhabit more with my family. You know final frontier of spiritual progress when Jack hornful says seriously and so well, you know I found an extremely powerful, the pies when I'm with my parents. You know does that lifelong conditioning that has had with them so often leads to habitual, better energy, yes, and so when you pause

then you can kind of connect again with this was happening both then you and around you and then another thing that you could do. I don't like it so much as an issue, russian, because it has a lot of negative connotations for people, but it's called relax because I was told so often, especially when I was in school. The finger would be point at me and the teacher cinnabar, relax or focus and both things I could do at that time, but when we pause and you're in a relational feel with someone. You may notice attention that good also be just in your mind of like. Why need to come up with some I need to see something whatever Acts and not in a relaxed like relax like with the finger but see if you can, we see what's going on it's unfolding and you give yourself also perhaps the space,

to literally relax body parts like softening your belly, letting the shoulders hang down most of the times when I met people and its get stressful. His shoulders go up a little bit. The only waited I relax and miss when I'm aware of that, that's happening and PA. So for me to become like a very powerful combo, like the committee mantra, pause relax. I like this a lot. Let me start with pause What does that look like? I, our allies, the kid say in real life I'm in the middle of a conversation. and I remember that I agree with you remembering- is the hardest part of the practice for members to wake up remembering to do ever it is that you aspire to do. If I remembered-

does that mean I literally stop talking and everybody notices I've stopped talking, or is it truly just an internal thing that I'm doing or both are either? For me, it's both and sometimes you know I will get like feedback specially. You know in the beginning my wife would say you pausing again at I see you do it, but it could be both also really the moment when you remember to be mindful- and you don't have to it's- not stop. Sometimes people think about what is it? You have to stop everything it's him simple anyway, but sway more like. Ah, if there's something sweet about, about remembering all I can offer be aware, What that usually, does it give you some space and you tap into being more present what's going on, and you also

into how you are relating to whatever you are experiencing saw? No, it does not mean that you have to start, then it's also like you described the you start to get em new information of this situation because you are present to it, so it could look like as I'm listening to you, I could remind myself to pause, which would simply doesn't mean I stopped listening could simply mean that part of my awareness is also just redirected to the body. I, like the I've heard before from a friend of mine, a teacher name. Cushion paley ellison is a friend of mine and end you, you know too, and yet, on the show he talks about just reconnecting with your bed, you're, just remembering the word soft belly when you're in a conversation as a way to just get back in your body for a second instead of out of your swirling thoughts, so I could that would be,

habitable pause under your definition. Even though wouldn't be halting the conversation exactly and after practice, you could do what you suggested. Now that you could tap into your own body, but sometimes I also find extremely helpful. To really become aware of the body of whom I'm with you, I'm sorry listening, you know you cannot not listen, and you really start this You know I love it when I mean that more with someone, I know really well so especially example with family members. Do not really see them and see their body. So your mindful of the body, So much internally, but you really also present. the way their body is moving it's the same movement in a way and what Really help me

especially when I'm in situations that require a lot of energy or difficult behavior among people when it's both when you really like I can't connect to, but the bali and softening it, but also be present. my surroundings it's possible, then play a little bit when there's a person who is costing me a lot of energy. I feel energy draining by their behaviour by mindfulness would be seventy percent internal, and this may be like thirty percent extra and sometimes or switch it and so it also. The next thing that happens when you pause become present to a real, general field and relax into both the body and we see what's going on. Then you become more open and you start to see that you can be very receptive. Not only what's going internally but externally, and it gives you it

Empowering too can have shifted valve like how much do I wanna can be external aid, and how much is more helpful to stay in a leg the softening valley, internal and that's where the both becomes very powerful notice being mindful, both internally and externally, at the same time, but just a technical point here, I think we're sometimes told by the neuro scientists that were actually only capable of paying attention to one thing at a time. so how do we compute that they go so quickly? Ok, it's a hagen shifting clearly between yeah yeah, it of you were told a microscope to your mind in these moments, you would see that, if you're breaking down to its elementary particles, you would see

that, yet any given nanosecond your only focused on the body or the other person, but given how fast the mine moves, you can actually stay focused on your internal processes. What the other person who sang their internal processes to the best of your empathic cars and both, and I would imagine actually doing all of that could perhaps really cool. few in the field as you said in the moment in the situation, as opposed to spinning often to your own stuff, which is another place tat. We and often go, I find out stuck there. A lot of I've got these three objects in front of me me, the other person and the the spaceport wean right. If I'm playing there are less likely to be, you know planning my next purchase on amazon or whatever exactly exam. and then what happens is one that is,

Kind of established that sense of awareness that you talk about weekend a tune to Some emerging in the moment and is so powerful, especially in a relational feel, because we can feel when someone You really present for us and I got a lot of their feedback from my sexual when he notices that I'm not right and so when we really present for what's going on internally and around us both at the same time, we can a tune to what's emerging, and we can also really become way more creative, and I was for a lot of playfulness because I'm no longer thinking stand gonna, say. Or when you were, you know asking a question you are a kind of in the middle of it

I see all these things like. Oh, I could see this did. Anna could see that, and I know it's just that's the nature of conditioning, but I don't have to kind of all of that and stay very so that just like in meditation practice, sometimes you go back to the breath. You know one of the first like construction, I ever gotten in thailand. You can a relational feel you can also go back to. between or something that we are co creating right now and make that into your object like oh. This is between this is happening right now. I feel a sense of your city, kindness between then, and I and two into dad allows for presents. And then, after a while, I don't even have to tune internet just like the breath because it feels like there is some continuity of kind presents awareness. and then you know, there's so much more receptivity to both sides,

internally and externally sudan out how manifest in relationships is that we can really speak, for example, from the tipp of the moment. Another we blur everything how this is really also a practice. What the buddha would called. Why speech because when you are aware, you can keep. Checking quite simply is true, is a kind did helpful and his timely cause? You are so a tune also to what You know the queues you're getting nonverbal e from it the human being. Or an animal like several beings, and so we to start to notice that when we receive firmly he's just one part of being in a really you'll feel, but what we receive nonverbal is huge is well like the picture of your voice. The speed of your speech in all kinds of physical gestures- you do when you speak when you move

so it also allows for really being attuned to its called for in the present moment,. Much more my conversation with Bart Van Melick right after this you I've heard about master class for years, but I've never actually check it out, which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. The good news is the folks over at master class, are now sponsoring this show and they gave me a subscription and as I look at this as I realise that this is a great place to feel a lot less stupid. The lineup on this is incredible. The people there fruit to teach it just kind of blows my mind. They ve got Aaron sorkin on screen. Gordon ramsay, I'm cooking. Also, Thomas Keller, they ve got Anna lindh tore on creativity. Jon kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation, which is probably interesting and attractive to people,

We've listened to the show Noam chomsky on independent thinking, steph curry, on basketball. I could go on. I can't believe I've been sleeping on this app and, as I look at many of these videos, they're show well produced so informative and really really tight, so that you're not wait in a minute you're, just getting these warnings and a very attractive and interesting and entertaining way with master class, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime anywhere and at your own pace, annual membership start at ten dollars a month and you get unlimited access to every structure, thousands of online lessons exclusive content, insights and much more get unlimited access, every class and right now, as a ten percent happier listener, you can get fifteen percent off when you got a master class dotcom flash ten percent, that's master class dot com, slash ten percent for fifteen percent, often annual membership master class dot com, slash ten percent.

I want you to picture steve jobs, tinkering with a computer and his garage walt disney drawing cartoon for his high school newspaper. Every big mouth It starts with a big dream, but what happens when that dream turns out to be an even bigger family each week on wonder is new podcast, the big flop host me brown is joined by different comedians to chronicle some of the biggest failures and blunders and pop culture history data. so. What are you thinking why, in the world did this get made from box office flops like cats, the movie to action park, new jerseys infamous theme parks had countless injuries? Many lawsuits can ride so wild. It became known as class action part or quickly. That short form your platform with an even shorter life span. It's a story of a spectre you are failure with lots of surprises along the way enjoy. The big

on the one area or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to the big flop early and ad free on one replaced, get started with your free trial and wondering dot com, slash plus. You mentioned the voters- instructions about right speech. I just don't let that passed by the without hanging. lantern. I just saw people work clear. I believe the instructions word you say what is true to say what is useful and say it at the right time, an appropriate and kind. Oh sorry, I got three of the five created. Well sometimes I do appropriate, unhelpful combined them, but there is actually five year you tie about being able to say. If you can, you, ve been a notice that I'm listening to bark speak in all sorts of. You know this. This various star bursts of thoughts about clever things. I could say in response-

follow up questions are, what's the audience going to want to know, and how can I keep track of that et cetera, ET cetera? I don't need to chase all of those. I can let them go natural arising in that with me. What it's my turn to talk. Having really listen to what you just said, that leaves me with the capacity to do what I do and teachers talk about this a lot which is to be spontaneous exactly exactly in the begin. Hang it felt challenging for me to be invited to a tune to the emergence of what's going on ideas and thoughts had come up within me or what I hear Other people informal meditation in this way, because. we're so used to having this idea of control, and

oh, what we're gonna say next or what we're gonna be planning for and were also so used, especially with people Let me know well that we can have already fill in what they might say or how they got it. Do it, especially in like relationships that you have for a long time and this fact is really invite you to be very fresh in the moment and found extremely helpful to attuned to the summer since when I'm in that field are really being present and I'm starting a trusted, I'm really saying that trust That, I might not have something to say you know or trusting that, a person is really taking their time to speak.

Do not interrupt them. It's been so helpful because then speech and being in relationship, becomes my practice to and away, and if I can make a plug for creativity and meditation there are so many ways that you could do. Formerly that helps you to be present, and this could be one eyed I found in the beginning, so limiting that most of my meditations teaching was offered, for example, with hider. My body sitting are not really moving much, but still and maybe a little bit of walking now

I've gone way more exposed to other ways of being mindful my practice now, for example, my former practice, if I can his mindful swimming, really brings me like four continue appeared a time in the present moment. I also teach in the hospital in the bronx There was one man who constantly kept visiting our group of ptsd post, traumatic stress. disorder diagnosed veterans- and he said, I wish I could join you. I wanna be than man and said so join us. When he said no, no it's about sitting just like he after said, we even asked if we have to sit cross legged, like a buddha statue, said no. No, no, we just sit in chairs, join us and then, when he started all of a sudden halfway, he says stop, please. I need to move I can be present, but I need to move to ask him. So how would you want to move and he goes? Can I pretend If I'm sorry, son dancing with my wife,

ass, the others citizen, ok for you in this fine and so here was doing bad, but he was at present. While We were doing some yoga chair, posing the arbiter and sitting quietly, but I really wanna encourage everyone. to find ways in your life, where it's quite easy start cultivating and training the sense of being present and for a lot of people could actually be in a interrelation away. Now. I really plus one on that in a big way, and I did a lot of evidence in terms of your people really struggle mightily to establish the habit of meditation of ass heavily and so there It is not evidence that supports that. If you can find the easiest way in, that's probably going to be the

learning strategy, and so, if you can figure out their places in my life, where just being awake for this you'd? Have it doesn't look like this? statue I saw outside those by the airport is working for me and so that creativity. I think it's a really skilful. It's right speech part is what I'm trying Tell you it's helpful. I do or to go back to pause for a second, because we talk about pausing. In a way that you know your wife will catch you, As you know, you're not interrupting the conversation. You're, not stop it a kind of internal process that nobody's gonna notice. But there is a way, I suspect, to pause obama style, where you, actually stop in the middle of what you're, saying and Somebody might notice that this guy's actually pausing. So what does that? Look like you do it without coming off like some technique. You're using on somebody wrote.

First of all, these relational back assisted I've been talking about their not like communication tools. They Are really tools to remember to be present and support you continuity of it right, but I've personally felt like it fits coming, naturally to you, after a while to pause and could look like that. You can stop speaking for a while. I've noticed that it actually makes people more attentive and myself as well, like. I have like a decade of experience, teaching young people who are not receptive and beginning to meditation middle school suspension schools. What have you and did get their attention in the beginning? I would raise my voice or I would speak quickly. None of that work sometimes the most effective way

Also gathering my thoughts again really connect with my body and softening of the valley perhaps was through stopping I have a little bit of an advantage. As a non native english speaker. Is that sometimes as I, this is not my language. I have to kind of paused to find the right words and saw Maybe you know four native english speakers who use all the time like, maybe just pretend also sometimes that you can have in giving- of more time, to really find out, what are the words that need to be expressed and it's so interesting to see how we are the words come from you, does that happen? That process I find extremely interesting like they can. Bubble up and even the act of speed. which I find it amazing like right now, my vocal chords are vibrating in the netherlands,

Mediated through the internet, you hear this than your ears and among the exact english word, for the thing that vibrate in your ears, his vibrating right now with the vibration of these focal courts, and so this communication and is unfolding mediated through the internet, and it all starts with these images and thoughts I come up and so quickly they form into words so with some form of pact. Is it also very interesting? The ceiling What's the difference between mindful speech and habitual speech. Then we can also see that in a moment we wake up and we go on. There was a period of time of unmindful speech and, I might have said thing that wasn't fitting that the five aspects of wise speech and

in this way. We learned through me peer reflection, as the buddha was, jesting to a seven year old. At the time. Even now I d, it feels as a protection to pause for me right now. And it doesn't mean I stop speaking, but it can give He also time to check in because I'm seeing you like your nonverbal expression, in another, so attuned to checking, oh then maybe wanting to say something I can pass Also, the timely nature of speech that the buddha talked about. I can only know this when once present further relational, you that you are creating with someone, I do sometimes feel guilty because This is an unusual conversation because I'm interviewing you so I I occasionally have to break I contact and right

I know, because I want to make sure that I dont forget to ask you a question, but I also want to write it down so that I'm not having to her in my mind, while I'm right and listen to you, so you have to like put up with me occasionally looking down and writing notes. You been very patient with it back to pausing for a second just to really beautiful point. As I understand it, I really like that distinction. You may This is not a communications technique. This isn't like something you're doing to make sure your points are landing with the other person. This is really a. This is a psychic self defense actually and so the pause. It doesn't have to be some I'm thinking out loud here, but I can imagine it doesn't have to be some big tactic. Some did theatrical thing you do we to you know it could be just the right. I, for example, I notice nodding freedom,

that I get carried away and start saying a bunch of stupid stuff is, I might say, you'd only pause for a moment and then, sir talking again and its lead again, it doesn't have to be a key. Hate it when I feel like somebody's using a technique on me or their bill, you know like performative lee, mindful or whatever. Yes, then them in dialogue, gets pretty sort of unhelpful in those moments. Try to want to do that to but what I do like the idea of the psychic self defence of. Let me stop this snowball before it gets wait at the bottom of the hill and you know knocked over a small child, so yeah that strikes me really. Finally does any of what I've just rambled about makes sense here. You know the listeners can't see it, but I've been nodding. Disconnect connect back to that example of this high school. Young man, Jonathan, you know who, for him this was a huge inside.

Then he realized he was not alone in self judgment, and so what you just described, my bet would be that almost Anyone who has had a similar experience that you just described- and I think talking about our experiences in this way- is also very helpful, because it helps you to start seeing clearly certain patterns. So what you just offered dan is helpful for me, as I will probably you know, remember that when I see myself doing you know, I'm having the same habitual feel as you just described I might remember even your name, my hometown when that remembering is happening usually mindfulness. So the more we start to name all these experiences it becomes

is to recognise and when they are operating again, and it also makes us more compassionate when we see operating with other people, because when you signals they all men. I he also when you said about you know how you son sometimes calls you I forgot the examining here will have even call I hate you hunt was even worse and then I remember telling us to a friend, like all lulu, just told me that he hates me- and he just said I've been hated by my daughter for a really long time. I hear you and I think that's really what is so transformative. in this practice is that we start to see that all these experiences, whether they happen within us around us off with other people,

they're, just in away nature operating an unfolding and from a meditation perspective, all we're asked is: can we be with it and when we're be with it, we create more space to dig skill, for action, this back is also really has shown me dan, is that I am. I would be very good at doing nothing. Or saying nothing when actually it was required for me to say something. nowhere in workshops reflecting on patriarchy or racism. I'm social injustice I would just gonna be quiet and hide behind thoughts, were saying about your friend. Europe, you don't really know how the situation is in america. Why do you have to say about this and I wouldn't say anything. then? After a while, you know, I was to notice what the impact of my silence and I noticed and actually got fee

back from france saying like what look hearings hiding in the privilege of you can be silent, and so this practice, of really becoming more also attuned to what's going around us without losing a sense of self can make us sensitive to any impact. that we have even when we're not speaking, it really feel like it's totally enriched my meditation practice. As soon as I started to. we see it in a more brought away and studying operating relational mindfulness We had armor, I'm really sold. We explored one of the very useful techniques that you provided, which is pause but there was another when you mentioned that I just wanna go back term A little bit more meat on the bone and people can use it in their lives, which is your lacks right. That's if I understand correctly at a different practice, then paused on my right about that. Yet again as follows,

pause, is the remembering of awareness instruction and inside I like to relax, is then to physically see. if you can may be softened attention. That was noticed by pause. Like softening your belly. I sometimes have loosened ajar you know I'm a greener, especially when is an uncomfortable, unpleasant, relational feel that I'm creating with someone. So that has a physical aspect. This relax the mental? He cannot really relax your mind, but what you could do is to have an attitude

And very deliberately, maybe even say to yourself receive receiving, even if it's like very unpleasant, can you receive the experience of that unpleasant? Because what it allows for you to do is to be bearing witness with it Maybe you can even goes far seeing allow so relaxed and becomes they can you know you pause, but you can then also very use it basically, can I receive an allow what's happening right now,. I might eventually you know condone what's happening, but the actual experience right now and so. when you say is remembering of awareness, relax is connecting with kindness.

I think the two of them than any come together Do we kramer who created this practices that relax that attitude heels? What pause reveals? I really like tat because If the attitude of mind is one are receiving, what's going on, what's on falling. it usually has a healing quality, because there's kindness there so pause allows you to become aware, relax It's kind of like you know you choosing kindness unease as best as you can in a moment. by having a receptive me even allowing attitude to the experience they are having to be clear, though, that is not a quiet since or a possibility that mean those acting what's happening right now, not necessarily being blindly react,

to it, but responding in the wisest way possible, which made me I knew not explicitly not condoning what's happening exactly exactly so pause relax. Those are too. related tools. Are there other tools within this world of I mindfulness move inside dialogue that you think would be serve. reasonably easily operational eyes by listeners yeah. So after a pause and relax, another instruction is called open, really kind of allows you to stop playing with this idea of being aware something as internal also noticing, when you more aware something external and both a great way to do this with nature, so maybe soon after hearing is You can't even go to a park or nature and practice open.

See what happens and in a very concrete way what you could do it can even do it in indoor air, start with feeling your body is best as you can, listen to our speaks to you. so more mindfulness directed internally and then see. If you can look at something an object, it could. I'm just looking at a microphone right now but see if you can still feel the body and slowly We're up to, and this could be a tree outside could be a moving animal could be iraq and to see what it's like to open to another experienced. That's on falling outside of you, but mindfulness

being aware of it, I think that's one of the reasons so many people, especially in the midst of this pandemic, fine, the sense of ease refuge. If you will by going out a nature, because it naturally opens the mind And so what I would suggest that you could do is stand said whenever you're pasture is start first, internal, And then too slowly, let me start with sounds. Can you feel the body still hear the sound of his voice? sounds that are coming in from the space wherein those extra experiences. Then opening your eyes and maybe opening up to

right now in the netherlands, are ready. The daffodils are coming out really kind of becoming open to that still feeling a connection to yourself, but has also fine. When you know she told you getting into this experience of seeing the daffodil. then allowing itself to play with her. So sometimes awareness is a lot more extra. Let's find there's. No. This is all about balance and because life is always changing, your balance has to change. Every time who had so. That could be one way where you can also start playing with opening the feel of awareness. Not necessarily losing a sense of yourself in it. That sounds like a great formal powers, just that would train up the ability to play. In conversation play with moving between in or balancing awareness of your own stuff awareness of the other person, stuff and awareness of the field between the two three four five

whatever number. Yet there are of you, so we do this open practice and were able to bring it into relationship. Is that sentiment he doesn't an easy way to start is with the sailor with trees or like things in nature, because this way less judgment around trees. I've judge the tree once because my sin has a habit of planting her christmas tree back in her garden and then puts it back and when it's christmas again and then one time she had treat with miserable. There was a first. I'm actually saw myself. You know that judging a tree so but then so this practice of open, I would suggest starting with something that you know, sparks little judgment and thing down, and I love you, you use as well as the verb play, because came to america, the first we had experience for me. I think there was a girl

plain a flight attendant would come to me and my wife, and we were still eating and fighting goes. Are you finished working on this and among working, you know in dutch, we don't have a word for work and food and eating it's just two different worlds: rain and I know when I have been an american off about twelve almost thirteen years. I noticed how much that word. Work is used in them. The language and sway more use than in dutch, even in the world and meditation. I would have people come up to me and say I think my mindfulness. Is good, but I have to work on my compassion and so. again coming back to what really is helpful for you in establishing and maintaining a practice is maybe to switch the word work and make it into play.

And I've seen that in my little boy, when he is playing I ever since that he's not Why should he keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again he's not afraid to make mistakes and Just like a musician doesn't work their music. There is a sense of joy that comes with it. Scientist I just noticed you using that word so yeah thanks, but I stole it from our mutual friend Joseph Goldstein, who talks about playing and meditation a lot. I don't have any original ideas to me. Neither yeah I we ve done some good and I'll use this term slightly playfully here on introducing the concept of relational mindfulness and then giving p a few easy take are. I want to use the term easy to blithely, but like doable

things to play within their own lives around pausing? Relaxing opening? Do you feel like we've, given people a suitable introduction, or is there thing that we ve missed that we we absolutely should diving on before we let people go, no, nothing. We re recovered alot yeah The one thing that I think is just key is really appreciating a moment of when you actually wake up in the middle of What are you doing in daily life because What that means, it means the practice is working at home and in ages always saw myself usually going there, I haven't been mindful and all look at me, a lot of sound judgment good to notice, but late

it's way more, like has a sense of joy. So it's how close with this, like it's the pause that we members and I really like that- the path that we members had the inside petition society when I teach them, there's a space for the staff to eat and teachers and then the door back to. All that meditators there in silence, then door knob on top of it. It also says the pause. Thirty members so that would be the main take away. He noticed tat were a pause, can really feel what it's like to be present in the midst of the messengers so daily life. Next time I see you, I fully expect you to have the word pause. Tattooed on your rests I would argue that I've been hold many times once hey. I was on a retreat and the person after retreat. Things me was one four blabber bar. I am

had to artist. I got my gear with me offered to you for free that check it out. I thought about getting the letters. I feel a little serve earnest in an hour. Brand way, but I think it could be useful as tb o a b for the benefit of all. beings or as a reminder to stop being so. You know selfish itself. In view of this, I had that somewhere. You know near my hand on my wrist or something like that would be ill bees for reminder, but I too am and pain of verse and chicken server, and I don't like you jump in freezing lakes on the regular, so I'm truly pain averse well. This has been great It's great to see you at my grandpa from my likewise end. Thanks for doing this pressure, thank you as well, just a thought. Maybe we could get them

to gather. Yes, I would do that. Where I really word, if I got your virus with you, I would do it he brought us getting he's holding is picking up all we were. I let you go after. We made our promise in public. people want to learn more about you workin. They do that. I am active at the new insights meditation. I'm in new york base, usually so there they can find me. I also teach at the inside meditate society and we ve about our dear friend joseph costing, oh, be called teaching a retreat with him in the beginning of April and on my website my full name: Bart Van Melick, darker, we'll put links stall these in this

well, not so big! You want to learn more learn from the man himself. You can go. Do that bart great job thanks again. Likewise, thank you so much to be well, thanks again to Bart. Oh, I just want to plug something here on Bart's behalf he's doing an upcoming retreat with Joseph Goldstein and roxanne dolt through. I m s, the insight meditation society starting on April third there's a link to sign up in the show I just got an email from just about this. Retreat he's very excited about it, so go check it out. They show is made by Samuel johnson dj cashmere kim bike. Mama rear were talent, gent point with audio engineering by ultra violet audio ad. As always a shout out to ryan kessler? Josh co hand, abc news, will see you on friday for a bonus from the great meditation teacher or in J offer a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early.

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