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again. I don't know about you, but I have spent a goodly portion of my meditation practice. Trying too hard pushed push pushing for down no, what This is a I think of a quite a common problem, especially among type a people. We try to win at meditation, but the practice doesn't work like that. If you over effort, if you try to make something happen, it's pretty much guaranteed not to happen. What is pretty much guaranteed is that you will suffer. I've used this analogy before, but meditations catholic, a video game where you can move forward. If you want to move forward to badly after having suffered in this way. For many many many years I had the good fortune of doing a few meditation retreats recently with a teacher by the name of Alexis santos who introduce me

to a way more relaxed way to practice. Alexis is teaching style is highly unusual, at least compared to what I'm used to and while I backed against it at first. As is my, u tendency, as somebody who can be a little dismissive and judgmental, I did pretty quickly come.

I see that alexis style is extremely valuable and extremely practical. To put it simply, the guy has changed the way I meditate and that's why I wanted to bring him on the show today, because he might do the same for you. Alexis has been practicing meditation for twenty years. He was a student of a very influential and fascinating burmese monk by the name of saya de ou, taizhou, india. He is an intriguing character who we will discuss today. Alexis also happens to be a core teacher in the ten percent happier app and the lead teacher of our on the go course which I highly recommend. It's filled with all these incredible free range, meditation techniques, a speaking of the ten percent happier app a quick reminder today is the last day to join me in the ted lasso challenge which we're doing in collaboration with apple tv plus

is a free five day, meditation challenge. The goal is to help you practice radical kindness to yourself your loved ones, to the world at large every day in the challenge, I'll drop, a video drawing on some short clips from the acclaimed tv show tat. Last to explain how you can use kindness to improve your relationships and then, after each video you'll get a short but powerful, guided meditation from la Sarmiento, who was on the show a few days ago. That will help you practice what you've just learned in the video to join the challenge, which, by the way, is totally free, just download the ten percent happier app today, wherever you get your apps, Ok, here we go now with alexa santos Alex Santos. My friend welcome back to the ship. oh good, to see you dan. Likewise, I think a good place to start probably is: can you just give us some grounding in who is saya de outta asian yeah? And how did you come to know him just for the

uninitiated, I want to say saya Da S, a Y, a d, a w eu which, as far as I can tell it's just the letter- u and it's kind of like in in burma it's kind of like m c might account you know, might might be in front of a name in ireland, and fantasia near t J, a m I Y a so. How did you come to do this? This gentleman? What's the what's his story and and what the approach to practice. Sure, Sir Sighed out who take any site means teacher scientists. Maybe it keep, it short say: cider he's a monk in burma It is really a meditation teacher focuses almost exclusively on teaching all day long to whoever shows up at his retreat centre, whether its other manette? fix nuns and monks or lay people like me when I showed up

and I started studying with him in two thousand and three I had been kind of exploring the different methods of meditation mostly in india, and was Looking for a personal teacher, I had hit a few roadblocks my practice and I didn't really have any one to checking with, and it is getting clear to me the value of having someone who is we done their own work and is embodying wisdom. And so, when I heard about this, you really young teacher. At the time his teacher had just passed away, show you men side are very highly spected monk and had left really side. I would Tasmania ass his principal student and was really just enough cup first couple years of his teaching, so was really by chance. I had met

mine who told me about cider- and he had said just this person at that- tell me about side politician, and his style. He said just a few words and the word that really stood out to me was natural, and I knew I wanted to go check out what is he teaching, because a lot of my practice up to that point had been cut in some ways anything by natural, I was at times as may meditated discovered trying so hard time themselves up in knots. For me, there is also a kind of a fog in the background of similarly deep discontent that was surfacing, which was surprising, because here was this meditation practice that had been providing such

support and I really have found a deep contentment almost like I had found what I was looking for, because I had recently come abandon the light. I was I in search of something that would could gimme some more meaning and suicide me that I was hitting these road bombs and what I discovered with sigh all was an ability to really relax and open up the awareness to include. The whole picture right all the emotions of the mental states, all the feelings and to do that in a way that was really accessible and really just in the first few could say minutes even of being with him. It was clear I wanted to go down that path of studying im. So I stay there for a couple of years. I ordained as a monk because I was there and why not, and then that's been my primary way of practicing. Can you say just give us a little bit more detail about the difference between the way you had been practicing

the station before meeting cider and then after you, you'd describes it as being natural and opening up too many were aspects of your experience. So how is that technically, in the simplest possible terms, different from what you had been doing previously? Well, what I have been doing, which is in a way the way than many of us first start practicing, which is to bring our attention to a primary object. The style that I was studying forehand was to really stay with us stations of the body or the breadth and. really use that as the anchor point- and that is a perfectly good way of practicing its described oftentimes as a progressive practice that the buddha encouraged and the element that

I think I was missing and that really sighed over chechnya starts in right. Up at freind is to acknowledge that how we are looking at that object, whether it's the Sensation but save sitting right now, or the the coming in and out. What is that we're looking at? That is really a critical component of our practice. So, beginning to understand that the mind that's working, is more important than the thing that we're looking at that that we're looking out. We call the object, so the object might be the emotion there we're. Having might be how the body feels hot, if it's a hot day right now, it's scorching were recording this drink. Some of the heat waves that's going on, so those are the objects that we can pay attention to, and it's important

Member that it's the mind that is actually doing that work of now and so often when we're paying attention to an object we get so engrossed in what it is that we're watching that we face even that we have a mind or we don't really get scale, that understanding nature of awareness itself. If we're so focused on the object a little bit challenging to begin to explore that the whole picture, meaning the mind as well the mind, that's doing the practice, Let me just see if I can restated, in my words- and you tell me if I'm right, if memory serves, if you had dropped out of med school and gone to asia and gotten into meditation, and the type of meditation you were doing was really focused on the breath or the sensations elsewhere in the body road. So it's quite directed. Then you meet this guy and he has you open up to whatever is coming up in your experience, so can be sustained,

in the body, the feeling of your breath coming and going out, it could be whatever emotion is happening or thinking or sites or sounds, and he says don't get so engrossed in whatever the objectives, in other words whatever it is that you're paying attention to. I want you to pull back and notice. What is the attitude of the mind. That is aware, that is very cleared hand, but switched jobs yeah, and actually this is a pro tip for listeners. This is a thing you can do in your meditation, which is straight from cider, which is every once in a while. While your meditating ask yourself, what's the attitude in the mind right now, can you say more about why that question is so illuminating show, I mean it in a way. It points the direct directly at.

How it is that we, our living our lives. You know when we choose to do anything there are habits of mind that we are doing it with so conversation? that we're having right now, if you're listening to the podcast, the state, mine that your listening in with when you talk with you family or friends. When you do you work there all of these mental habits that our plan? out and in a way these are the habits that determine the quality of experience that we're having made these are, the habit said will lead us down the path of suffering or of well being so the very simple simple, but not easy. As we say, mentor maneuver there of checking the attitude is real, the invitation to see.

How are you relating to the present moment are you wanting something to happen? Are you wanting something to stop happening now? The truth is almost percent of the time in every mind that is on this planet mosaic the human minds there is wanting and aversion. So it's not that we're saying sit down to have the right attitude, but it's an invitation to begin to recognise wow It is so interesting that, even when I sit down to simple we observe the present moment. So then I'll be wanting something leaning in and I was little bits of movement of the mind become clear and clean. They lead to some kind of tension, some kind of stress and its those movements right become the defined

whence which sound kind a heavy term, but their basically natural energies habits of mind that when we see them, recognize em in through wisdom. We begin to discover that those bits can be like of knowing that the work of waste That's where we see a more skilful, more open, clear way of relating to whatever it is that's happening, so I just you know, add onto that that in a skillful way, particularly as we're starting out our practice, it is often helped not just throw open the doors and say well I'll, be aware of whatever, so typically, we might still start. We, if things at feel really within reach, just the physical experience of the body right over the body sitting with breathing, but at the same time, in

Judgment can be their relatively early on that awareness itself is not difficult, and I think this often times is a pretty radical shift for folks to hear you not I'd texted you just for we started, and I asked you if you aware, just simple text? Are you aware to you, and I we dare you very see wrote back always so I'm sure there's some truth to that. Then. What we see how easy it is an end in daily life, which is where we are all living, we can think how easy it is to get absorbed in the experience that we have meaning we lose awareness and for a lot of folks, it starts to experience the benefit but say of taking a few minutes of practice the natural desire to continue to be aware kind of arises right on its own and

Yet we see how often it is the mind is doing anything other than being in the present moment, knowing something about what's happening, and so it can be helpful just to be reminded that awareness itself is not hard, but we forget right. We forget simply check the mind or to do something that allows awareness to return. We ve now stay did one explicitly one kind of in asking two of the primary phrases that side AL uses as his meditation instructions. Now I'm going to try to describe to people how sided teaches meditation and then you'll you're correct, because I'm sure I'm going to say this incorrectly, but my the way I took it from you, which is one step removed you ve done a lot of study and practice in the style of meditation, though, why I understand it is the start off by

he'll, say, relax the body and then ask you to ask yourself a question with the attitude in your mind you trying to make something happen, a trainer fence, something off like me, pain or anxiety or restlessness. If you don't have to beat yourself up for the desire or aversion it just the seeing it as a kind of self liberation. And then another question might be. Are you aware, right now and what is being known in the mind right now and then, had a cycle through this. What am I a whereof? What's the attitude in them that is knowing what I'm aware of, and since it you acknowledge, especially for beginners, it's easy to get lost if you don't have a base of sir focused or concentration abilities, so yeah, then maybe you'll pick a more directed awareness in just be with

breathe for a little while and then open up? What am I knowing? What's the attitude im, neither mind is knowing it and it's a little bit less militant, a little bit more positional, but more relaxed style. I might describing it with some degree of accuracy nor yeah I mean in a way- and this is part of the framing of kind of under standing what it is that meditation practice is all about, which is to recognise that this is an opportunity to develop these skilful qualities of the mind, So we say the silver qualities of my meaning, those qualities that when there are more and more developed lead to more well being, we make better choices. We make more compassionate choices we inhabit. What is this elusive quality of wisdom moors? We can think, and

stan life and more skilful way? So, when we think about, why is meditation practice? Where is it leading? What's leading us down the path of developing the skilful qualities of mind, then we can see that the objects that we're paying attention to Are simply there or being used to help develop the mind, meaning whether it's the breath we can use the breath to be aware we can use the breath develop stability, but we can also use thoughts. We can use even tension in the body we can you who's a mine really scattered over time. Any experience with the right attitude can help to develop awareness, stability of mind and wisdom,

any experience and the beauty of that, then is we really can stop worrying about getting it right. And in a way, get interested in What can I learn about in the past, a moment. What kind of learn from this present moment. Everything then becomes something that we can develop. Awareness for. as a part of that under standing needs to really be ass on a little bit of confidence that awareness itself is not difficult. So just a quick example, if I were to ask you and for those listening, to this podcast right now. Are you aware that you are hearing Sudan, are you aware that your hearing- I am yes are you aware before, I asked the question: always aware. I know you aren't that's know. I died again

answer as I was listening to you right, but I dont think I was I without one thing I was conscious lee mindful of here yes, and that is the difference between in a way between awareness of that particular experience now, there may have been awareness in your mind or around other objects or just a general sense of being aware but we can also add in elements that we're not necessarily currently being mindful of, and not just a helpful way to explore all right. I've been here sounds and I've been listening then. Being aware that hearing is happening. A very simple process hearing is happening if there are sounds, and we have what is called the working year door, so the contact of those rights we get the arising of hearing as the expense.

it's knowing that hearing is happening not hard to do so oftentimes by just to you know, to to students. If I say in, are you aware that you're hearing they'll say well? What now you ask that question or do you know the experience of your hands You feel your hands, so we ve been really absorbed into something else and the attention shifts to the hands. Yes, then it's available and in relays We really start to see that our right being aware, it's not hard to feel the body, it's not hard to feel the posture. Sometimes it can feel a little bit out of reach for trying to grab something, pacific, but if we have really learn to relax and simply recognize it is accessible, to feel like I'm in the present moment, I'm not lost I know where I am. I know the physical body generally and I know maybe in general way, the current mood

any of those doorways again is another. What we unite, Dana discuss like a tap the swing of getting the momentum of awareness going we have to do a lot of work, but we do need just that light touch. the more times we do that light touch. That's the end of it tablets meant or the development of momentum rights. It said, there's a whole lot of benefit that what we can talk about in terms of- why is momentum so beneficial? But that really is in a way the foundation of how we can be in the present moment and be learning just by way of back story here,

but a year ago, maybe a little less than a year ago, as we're recording this now I during the pandemic had incredible good fortune of going on a private retreat with alexis and a few friends in maine and I'd known alexis for a long time, but I hadn't been on retreat with him and I didn't know too much about the style of practice out of which he emerged and the way which he teaches, and so I came from A background of really you either watching the brass or doing loving, kindness, meditation or doing noting. You know- if I wasn't washing the breath or doing loving kindness, I might just do an open awareness where I'm using noting just to notice thinking

ing or rising and falling of the breath or hearing or whatever, so it's pretty rigorous a little bit athletic. All of these forms of practice is a lot of doing a lot of effort in at least the way I was doing it and I show up on this retreat and well. First of all, there's no schedule mean most meditation retreats you go to theirs, stairs, lab very rigid schedule of get up. You sit for an hour than you have breakfast than they do yogi job, you know washing parts or whatever, and then you do some walking meditation sitting walking sitting walking city walking lunch that another little breaks walking sitting walking, sitting working dinner if you're having dinner, sitting walking, sitting walking, sitting working dharuma talk dead, electors, like yeah. We're not really doing that, we'll we'll get together once in the morning I breakfast then then be nothing. Nothing in them have lunch, then than be more nothing, and then they will get together in the afternoon and talk which, by the way, was like what we're gonna talk. So to me, it struck me, as I just said.

rob room, no rules and the meditation instructions themselves were. You know, as I said before, quite a bit different. It wasn't like this set thing you're gonna note everything that comes up in your mind or you're, gonna, repaid, repeat these loving kindness phrases or watch every breath. It comes and goes its nose. Said and or by the way, like our stand, whatever your g check, your phone doesn't matter whatever you're doing at any moment. You can be aware and just check the attitude in the mind and ask yourself: are you aware- and he mentioned this a moment ago- he likened this question of. Are you aware to kind of pushing a kid on a swing tap and then you let it go cap, and then you let it go see. You too have to be neurotic about asking yourself. This question: ask yourself: are you where maybe my full for a few nanoseconds, then you drift

the while later tat the swing again men over time. When you build up momentum, you don't need to tap the swing as much and if you're getting totally lost, you can go back to a sort of more directed style of meditation of just watching the breath or something like that. And I remember thinking this is crazy and initially really my mind was rebelling against it, and I was remembering how, when I tat my son sometimes and we're on a swing he flies out, and then he comes back and usually farts in my face, and so that was the way waking up was going for me. I would notice that I would ask myself: are you aware, and then I would wake up An hour later after having you know, written a chapter for a book, a girl, you know written some gloriously positive amazon reviews of past books for myself, whatever embarrassed single rumination was going on and I would you know awake in a lot of self laceration, etc, etc, but

time. I really responded to this relaxed style and I was able, after a few days, to build up some awareness. The day. I say anything there that deserve clarification or response just brought some things up to mine action. It was through the ages helpful. The always hear you describe the dan experience of reality. We all experience reality and so it's always it was a delight to be on a tree with you and hear your version of pushing the swaying and having farts land into your face you know what I did actually reminded me a little bit as to in some ways why cider rotation year emphasised more the attitude and the mind than the object and one of the reasons why he was doing that was oftentimes He was working with mediterranean.

who were arriving at the centre, so tight and tat since and striving and feel like they weren't really progressing in their practice. So one of the questions all, sometimes ass, people, your. How long have you been practicing, and they might say, while three or four years, but what they would often mean, is that I would practice fifteen minutes in the morning. Maybe thirty minutes in the evening and then he would just do the math with them like how many hours are you awake in the day, how many hours being mindful and then how many hours are you not being mindful, and obviously when you count, those very formal periods of sitting down and practising that's a very small fraction of what is getting developed

moment by moment during the day. So if we want to develop our meditation practice so that it feels available and not just something we do on retreat because of retreat is set up specifically to provide all of the conditions for deepening in a way this in wise view by the views that we bring to mind that help us to see reality more clearly, so, for example, that thing is changing, things are natural processes, so those message is the environment. The fact that everyone else looks very medicine. If an enlightened right, so it's kind of reminding us right, I should be doing better than I am or whenever it is mine produces, then the retreat ends. If you are forcing us to go in retreat- and they are left then, with your own

and your own life and I'd say most people really have a hard time with understanding how to internalize practice so that a truly does bring day by day benefit and day by a progress, and so this is where the more we hear that awareness is available there we can, learn from any experience. We don't have to be getting back to some other experienced. That's calmer, we can be in the midst of our farewell more chaos our morning. If we someone our joy is. Any experience increasingly can be the basis for another moment of awareness right so as we develop momentum in sight, the strength of the

radar of awareness at first. It just goes to one object and that's fine. Go to the breath, go to the sensation, but over time, it's as if the radar of awareness itself get stronger and stronger, and it receives experience as that Momentum of awareness gets fully established, and this is just nature of awareness. If you keep allowing it to get developed in a natural way. So it's not tiring. You can keep going you put in these little room Andrews during the day. At some point, this momentum starts to go along on its own momentum. So, for example, pick your own. You know habit of mind that you're not that happy with you know it could be a lot of anger

or self worth stories in the mind, anxieties worries all these. We could say our habits and the reason why they keep surfacing is because, in a way we ve practised them in a moment and many moments in our life, this mental energy has arisen. The sayings it's arisen, but without awareness and without wisdom. So this is where we can. the power of momentum, and we don't need to stop it. Jeez, but the more we direct a little bit of our mental energies towards what skilful. What's helpful, like awareness, like wisdom that begins to gain momentum, There is one analogy that I had shared with you, because there was a light switch sitting right next to me when I was discussing practice with you and your friend on that retreat and usually the the light switch of awareness that safe from us tat. We want the lights, which of awareness is off. That's the default settings

Then we check and remember right, I'm hearing right now, I know that I'm sitting or standing that's a moment of putting the lights which on and its remarkable few moments later click. It goes back off to its defaults Now, the more times we do that little bit of checking is awareness present. We don't have to be striving with a lot of energy and in fact them in. the more relaxed we do it the more available. It feels right because Not straining and we're just using a light energy if I tapping the swing are hitting the lights, which, at some point that light switch, will stay on more than its, which is off. So that's the nature of momentum, the momentum of away, and out of truly is possible in daily life. You know- and I think one of the challenges that we set up for ourselves

as we too much associate awareness with sitting still eyes closed or com, like all those are kind of. We think that is being meditative, but actually really meditation is am developing a skilful stay.

If mind right now- and we can do that even when we are in the midst of conversation or even when we're reacting negatively, but by watching we're now beginning to also develop awareness and insight into the suffering nature of that reaction. That's what we need to do if we can keep getting interested in the experiences that we're having it sort of opens up the possibility of what we consider our path, our practice, and it's not just taking time to speak. You have more secluded, which is a great foundation and should not be abandoned in any way and take as much time as you have and and are interested in. and those more formal periods. Also just to clarify me. You made a nod to this, which I appreciated. There are a lot of people listening of the show who have never been and may never go on, retreat, which is totally fine and

believe. What you are saying is this style of practice is available to you in perhaps very powerful, no matter what dosage of meditation your at. So even if you're doing ten fifteen minutes a day of meditation just start tapping the swing through the rest of your life. Of asking of the little question am aware As for the question units are, what's the attitude to my mind right now, is there pervaded by doktor? You know wanting or were not wanting. You can start moving toward a life where the light switch is on more than its off upswing. I think- and I really do think just hearing the message that its possible in daily life in the midst of raising kid

is paying bills in our working in engaging and enjoying even and whenever it is, there is nothing about the experience itself. That precludes being aware, and in fact the more the understanding develops that any experience. can either pull us in and we can get lost in it or it can be the very basis of waking us up. So example, lotta people never develop much skill around seeing. So if your cited he opened the eyes up in the morning spend a whole nay the eyes moving round taking in things that we are seeing a navigating and having views and opinions about, and getting stress stir it out resonating, where that, whatever it is, and yet so often

almost entirely, it poses into my we get absorbed into the story of it, the experience of it so developing. A little bit of interest and skill with being aware of seeing really can be a radical, change, and it doesn't mean anything esoteric like aware of seeing it simply to recognise, just like we did with hearing that. Seeing is happening seeing- is already happening adding in that little bit of a light touch her now that I have mentioned seeing. Maybe you're, more aware that seeing is happening before that, let's say when we're not aware we could say in. In fact more hot is at that. I adore malta is delusion so one form of doom,

using is not clearly knowing something as it is so just being just seeing everyone sees, but they have can I door what make someone actually meditating at that moment is developing an awareness of that function that simply happening And a number of positive benefits come from that mean awareness itself is such a wholesome state of mind, but the more we start to observe the functioning of this body and mind process. the more. We begin to understand the nature of what this experience. True is about and how much we live, our lives, clinging and grasping onto what ultimately arduous changing process

is that when we allow them to be as they are, this a greater clarity and ease to live in the midst of the whole range of pleasant and unpleasant experiences, but unaware the mind typically is triggered by wanting what is pleasant and not wanting what is unpleasant and those both stand, on being so identified with the experience it we're having. That is, we feel no out there's no other choice other than to try and death made or kill or get rid of anything that we don't like right order, desperately hold onto the things we we do like and yet reality is always going to simply be a changing set of conditions. Mindset

is part of our challenge for interested in. It is to understand how to live more skilfully aligned with the way things are, and that's what you know meditation really offers us. Let me just take a stab at at repeating that back too, because I think this is a key point. This practice isn't just about awareness for the sake of awareness, although of course, as you said, being awake and aware is likely to be of a happier existence than being stuck in the fog. of have an awareness and delusion, but when the lights, which is more on that it is often more on than it used to be, you can start to see some really useful things, including the fact that everything changing all the time and that when you grasp on the things that are changing all the time that can produce suffering and once you start to see

these non negotiable laws of the universe, you can reorient the way you move through reality, which is that you can no slowly slowly bit by bit, get of a better at not grasping, not clinging, then that is a huge accelerator towards a more happy calm and peaceful life. Well said: yes, that's right! Is that what I just described here, you keep using the word. Wisdom did I just described wisdom and yes, I really do think it's an elusive term. You know his side all the way he would describe it as he would lay out three yogi jobs, meaning three jobs meditate or can do the first one is have right view, which is have wisdom, and in the beginning, wisdom means an inch

Intellectual way of looking at experience, so you might just remind yourself- That, whatever is happening, is a process its something that's arising out of condition, some cause and effect process. Every moment right is some cause and effect process and we can be aware of it, whether its hearing or seeing or feelings and emotions in the body mental activity. It's a process that we can be aware of, rather than the cell few, which triggers I wanted to be different. I wanted to be a certain way So without right view. We remember o even anger, and frustration is icing out of nature out of some causes, so it helps to have the right

attitude when we remember to bring in this waste a meaning right view, so just to name these three yogi jobs. Since I mentioned the three jobs of a meditate. Her here only said these in order to make practice very simple because oftentimes we do too much, but it would say, have right view so see things as nature check to see. If awareness is present. and develop continuity, which would mean really practice with a light effort so that you're not getting tired by your practice. So just emphasising the importance of continuity, so right view aware and continuity and leaving a very sick.

Because so often were experiencing things, and we can. I think we should be doing more at any time for me personally, that I was really struggling and now it's sort of check in and so often I didn't have right view, which would lead to some kind of attitude where I was really struggling. Pushing tents, and so those very simple bookmarks can be helpful to just check and see how my practicing, particularly when you are struggling, not sure what to do. So. If somebody's listening to this and saying oh yeah, whatever amount of practice, I do every day or daily ish, I want to experiment with this style. These instructions are those the basic instructions for day to day practice you know have right view, in other words, to see that whatever is happening in your mind, isn't you per se it's the result of causes, impersonal, causes and conditions? It's just nature check to see

We are aware and then continued it check to see that you are aware the ice and that continue really seems burgundian put no way. It's reminder that you know the moments is always changing and it's so easy to just kind of drift again and then simply return. Alright, just continue continue lightly and having some confidence that that will gain momentum. Even these aren't really from said. Oh, this is in some ways what the buddha was teaching, which is have have right view, meaning there is a cause and effect process. There is suffering and the ending of suffering, and there is a path right that we can travel down and this particular flavour is emphasising just bringing in putting up front the reminder to see experience

nature, because our default is gonna, be seeing it through preference and through identification when women a judge, the unpleasant or cling to the pleasant so reminding ourselves that its nature and then just to be aware, and then that, of course, leads onward and meeting onward means, as we do more wisdom as awareness gains, more strength and pass city to receive, then you can learn more and more about even subtle movements of the mine. Little judge since these little energies, that we discover in places that we would otherwise just be in the experience and not realising that we're always being in a way this puppeteer. In the background, pulling The strings and often houses profiteers, not particularly kinder, skilful

I just want to see that and get interested in those habits as well. The subtle ones, much more of my conversation with Alexis santos right after this welcome to the bishop gray academy, the country's most exclusive boarding school, a place with the best and brightest aren't fighting to be prom queen or captain of the football team. They are on track to become the next supreme court. Justice academy is a new scripted part. ass, the follows eva richard, a brilliant scholarship student who must quickly adapt in a school where rules mean nothing and money means everything eva set our sights on being the first scholarships student to make the list. Bishop graze all coveted academic, top ten curated by the headmaster himself, but with no clear path, so the tops joins the knight of the wolf bishop, graze underground society, with more secrets than the illuminati. If she bends to their demands,

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over the wondering app or on apple pie, cast in the first part of the twentieth century. The Hilton family had a lock on the hotel industry by offering upscale service at a modest price. The company was expanding fast in buying up iconic properties across the country, like the plaza and the waldorf historiae, but their unchallenged rise wooden last and ambitious mormon named J, w marriott decides to pivot, from restaurants, to hospitality and he's after hilton business. Developing modern hotels across the world, but both the hilton and mary on families will have to contend with their share of drama in finding a successor, while also fighting to stay solvent in a high stakes: business hi, I'm david brown, the host of one. We show business wars. We go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time in our latest season, hilton and mary out or in a race to expand globally and secure the loyalty of

Nickel customers make sure to follow business. Wars were area, get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wondering app. They wanted to touch on that point that you made earlier about the you're joking about how the retreat schedule was wide open on the retreat that I was leading with you. You don't oftentimes, as is the little bit a feeling of a decision, a serious retreat like this is this is just camp here. What's to light, it's too easy and he had In that one gets win your allowing conditions to be more natural controlling as much, but you are just as interested in awareness. You know there's a lot there to see and when the sky, noise more open, that say it's more than at times approximating our own life, meaning we are choosing. Even though, in our daily life, maybe oftentimes. We don't get to you

is but bringing awareness to all those subtle movements, we see how much of our life is directed by some kind of wanting. I wanna get up, I want to go here. I want to go there and we would miss gaining insight are seeing directly at those aspects, are those habits because were so busy doing so, sometimes having a little bit more of an open container invites us into being of the sea habits. That word would otherwise miss. What was incredible from me on that retreat was that I guess I definitely had the attitude of this is in a real retreat. This is camp. This is bs over and and then saw a top of having doubts provoked by this being. different from things that I've done before? I was also, as you will recall, in the middle of a huge, real estate crisis that my my wife and I had left the city during the pandemic,

Renting a house were trying to buy another house in that purchase by now that We'Re- Having now was getting very, very complicated, so I actually had to spend a not insignificant amounts of many of the days on retreat on the phone, my wife and lawyers and real estate agents incredibly stressful. So I was just like this is ruined, but because I'm such a type, a person, I was trying to just no matter what I was doing. If I even if I was on the phone trying to figure something out with a real estate lawyer or a mortgage broker or whatever I would just roma. Asked myself am. I am aware that my, where just kept doing it, pushes the swing and then, when I wasn't embroiled in real estate michigan, I would practice, formerly informally. I buy, took advantage of their not being a schedule idea. I sat as long as I felt like sitting and then I took a long walk since has a lie down on the ground and just kept pushing the swing, and I was shocked a few days into it when I

the lights, which was all of a sudden on way more than it was off, I was I was wake and aware- and I felt like I had felt on quote- unquote normal retreats, and this again I am a very sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people listening who may never go on retreat and they may just be practicing five ten fifteen minutes a day. Or some days. This is a thing you can do in your daily life and its the best mobility. I try to do it my daily life, and that is a way as I am a retreat worm being more deliberate about it, I'm embarrassed to admit, but it is scalable this approach and one on one of the thing I just want to say to the to the sort of rank and file meditate her out there. Who may never do a retreat. Is you know if you think it about trying to says you're daily or daily ish meditation practice orgies experimenting with it. It is. It is definitely true that the more open underactive, what am I aware of style, rather than the government, a pick the breadth and stay on that. It's easier, get lost

and so you may want to play with due a period of directed awareness where you with the breath for a few minutes and then open up and then go back to the breath. So would you agree that recommendation I made at the end there? Alexis short, you know really whatever works and whenever you find interesting, because if you find meditation interesting, if you start to feel the bene, it and you really recognize it is beneficial right. I really do want to suffer and I really do want to have more carefully enough. I personally haven't found anything more support. Is then bringing these practices into whatever moment I can and we're working with the very deep structures of the mind. Deep habits are personality. The book, the momentum of our life and identity is a lot less fixed. Then we might assume it to be you. Don't we often just sort of thing that's the way. I am, and

well on the way we are simply just momentum of the mind are rising and us way again and again, and then there's there's rots tone. If We allow other rights to get formed and become skilful rights. As we now those to deepen those become the places from which we begin. Experiencing life right and those should be, the rule, awareness. You know of more and more understanding skill in being with them wide range of experiences that were bound to experience in our living process. and life really does become very interesting and one of things- and I always loved studying with side, are outta engineer Is his very deep emphasis,

and commitment to daily life practice, even though he ended up as a monk in his teacher asked him to stay in the robes before he died. So he decided to do that. He was married and had a kid and all of the insights tat, he ever talks about their insights tat. He had when he was a lay person he talks about being in the dizzy marketplace place, or you know, in his depressive cycles, in his twenties and thirties and the various things that he was going through in just daily living and so it gives a lot of confidence. Whenever I hear him talk about it, you know No. He understood that it was in from kind of retreating, deep into meditative zone, it was actual. being present with exactly the

conditions of his life and getting interested in the difference between allowing unresisting wanting Judging verses being aware, receiving and learning from being very interested in how the mine gets caught into struggle around, experience and then what happens as some understanding and the differ, and so when he now really talks about the benefit of awareness, he says it with such kind of enthusiasm. This at least for a while. You can borrow his confidence until it becomes your own. He didn't give beget you. I've read a few of his books in and then talk to you about him alive

he described himself as kind of the ne'er do well have a large family who, who have went through stages of depression. Drug use got quite had a really problematic relationship to drugs, for when he was young and kept getting sent away to this monk that his dad was friends with he used to practice meditation with the monk you've. Reference was troy, women soda and this great man asian masters, show your men took em, wanderers ring or as road right hand, and really you know with very patient with him, even though you know he would continuously get sent away, at the monastery to study, which way men then go back to his life, either at a school or working for his dad and the busy marketplace and then inevitably screw up again and go back to using drugs or hanging around with the bad people that get set back to the monastery in this mug was very patient with him, so must have seen something in him and eventually decided to rotation. It became a sort of add adhd.

a great teacher and as I understand it, is still pretty corky guy. What what's it like to study with him? One on one he's an interesting. I did I just to go back to what you said about three men may be seeing something in him and I think part of what he is in cider who tanzania wise aid, is poor. Guy who's definitely was struggling with life and suffering a lot and finding all kinds of ways to suffer which we are. very inventive around doing somehow, even though it so unpleasant. Lots of ways to suffer side are mutation. Ia himself with we often said that he would either without meditation he would have ended up in jail or totally addicted to drugs or dead. In our prematurely dead, and so he really made use of the practice, and I think part of that was because he.

We really live life at large and made a lot of unskillful choices. You know- and I think, just to name part of his personality- there's a lot of water buffalo in burma and the water The flow do exactly what they're going to do, but they're, just if they're in the minor walk and they defecate, where they are and they're not trying to beautify. You know how they come across their just water, buffalo and the more I hung out with side of his being examined We how he is with such an invitation to not. de manipulating not be controlling but to really be with conditions as they are. I said: that's part of the d, really encouragement in the dama in general, but potentially very skilled at encouraging that kind of flavour of power,

it is from people because so often whatever we do, we come in with a lotta judgments. We try and do it better We don't feel like we're doing it enough, and all of those really are just habits tat. We can to begin to notice and over time became more skilful and can actually allowing them as well to be there and is so relaxing and useful. It was almost like the very first time in my life, where I had truly been allowed to be, just as I am I didn't, Be any different, it didn't mean I wasn't going to change. I didn't have a lot that needed seeing right

letting go of, but in the moment the imitation is, you can be just as you are, and beware so powerful, so powerful, so healing full of love right, and yet it's not easy to do, and we often need to be reminded of the possibility to great place to leave it. If people want to find a more information about you where work and we get more alexis while there is the app dan better is out there thompson happier and then I do not actually do try and support people in their home practice. So that's on my website to search. If you search my name, alexis santos, you either, I think, come up with a boxer or.

Someone else and that other person is me so that meditation teacher but Alexa santos dot io if you wanna practice together. Sometimes my friend thank you very much for coming on the show, with great job proceeded thanks to him for having thank you too, alexis consider myself lucky to be his friend before we had out one last plug for the ted lasso challenge, which will teach you how to practice kindness in your life, including yourself, You can still join the challenge until midnight tonight september: eighth, download the ten percent, a happier app wherever you get your ass to join if you're listening later and can no longer joined the challenge, I might suggest that you go check out season. Two of ted lasso, which airs apple tv plus tat larry, go. The show is made by samuel jars, Gabrielle superman, DJ cashmere, justine, davy maria foretell indent point.

with audio engineering by ultraviolet audio. As always a hearty salute to my a news, comrades, ryan, kessler and co. Hen we'll see while on friday, for a bonus a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon music down the amazon music cap today or you can listen early and ad free with one plus in apple pie cas before you go to a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com, slash servant.