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here, what do you do if you find yourself marooned your thanksgiving meal, facing a voluble uncle. Who is spewing political ideas that you find abominable our guest today is overstepped. Soon I did there. I sir annoying dead joke over stuffed with practical ideas. For this situation. I first met, our guest through name, is build dirty several years ago, when I was doing a story for nightline about a group called the braver angels. Actually, at that time there were called the better angels, but they change their name to braver angels the group was formed in the aftermath of the two thousand sixteen election with the idea of bringing reds and lose together to create some mutual you're standing and trust as I The guy was moderating these seemingly incredibly successful discussions, I e there was no shouting, no road recitation of slogans. In fact, many people seem to be becoming friends, as I was watching all this out

really impressed. I later learned that the moderator was both a marriage. Counselor Annie meditate her, so I invited bill to come on the show, and in this conversation we discuss why trying to change people's minds or get them to abandon their core values is unlikely to be a winning conversational strategy. The value sticking with so called I statements and how to reach what he calls accurate disagreement. Quick note: this interview was recorded before most of the tumultuous events. Twenty twenty, but it remains, in my opinion, immovably relevant. So here we go with bill already nice to see you again good to see you. thanks for coming in and trying to get you on the show long, yeah yeah. Well, I'm pleased I'm really pleased they were able to get to new york city for this. As you know, I'm fascinated by your work and we're going to dive into it. Can I start with your meditation career and I'd love.

here. How I know I also, I think you also do chi gong, which I don't know much about yeah, so I'd love to learn about both of those things. Well, I started to to gung meditation practice twenty years ago and that your two thousand two thousand in the year, two thousand So I'm a practitioner, I'm not an expert, I'm not a teacher, never written about it, but I had a good friend who was into it, then how to master, who taught locally in the twin cities- and I just decided to try it and mostly because I was interested in reducing stress in my life and I I loved it, and I you know about twenty minutes a day. I started out with a video of the master, doing the moves, and so I could just sort of watch him and follow him. Then a wind and my way off the video started with twenty minutes now. I do have forty minutes every morning. I so I'm embarrassed man? I don't really know what it is? Well, I said ancient china

He's a spiritual and healing practice such five thousand years old, and it vines, breathing and gentle movements and there's a theory behind at that I'm not germ into the theory so much but energy in the body as a street. She that's right as a source of healing so the master I studied with as a healer, and I'm not into that as much as I meant you're, just a deep relaxation, bree being an gentle movements and it just com me and said, man. I tend to have sometimes creative ideas during it. Are you telling me that the life of a marriage counselor stressful well, I'm an academic, and I do a lot of community engagement work and I you know, live a fairly intense life, and that includes my clinical specialty as couples on the brink of divorce. Like an intensive care for research and so on,

I can add up to a fairly intense life and this so meditation practice suggest grounds manner so that every day so grateful to be alive. But how does it ripple out there save your life. Well, a lot of the work I do both with couples and also my work with says, will get into my work with better angels. Where we deal with conservatives and liberals who are at odds with each other. Did you notice that A lot of it is for me is about how do I manage myself in the face of conflicting people and conflicting agendas where the stakes are high, and so the meditation practice adds into my therapist train. To do what we have called the jargon phrase emotional self regulation and sent her nest in the face of difficult interpersonal situations. Ya mean I've watched you at work. I went to that national, I think, was the fur better angels, national conference and watch. You do your thing and.

Your com do at least on the outside of the hour, in my work in my modem actually come inside to costs This is what we're here to do folks. So let's do it and let me help you engage each other. So let's talk about better. I just know just gimme some background on how the group got started. Were the two thousand sixteen presidential election. vaguely alot of people. Remember that one, but that tender after that election to long term. Colleagues of mine who had worked on marriage and family here's? What one a new yorker David, ignoring. side of manhattan, the other every lap southwest ohio. South lebanon, ohio universes apart in terms of how people their felt about the election, they were on the fund together, our new yorkers doing our highest. Certainly our countryside manhattan gloom and do a funeral and

in ohio, hope and change. and they decided on the spur of the moment, to get together at ten the claim? Voters and ten tunnel jump waters for a week and in answer, was ohio in december to see if any of the gaps could be bridged and then they called me- and I said: oh that's pretty brave what we thinking of doing with them and they said they didn't know what they thought. I could figure that part out their fate accrue to the people and I remember sitting at my home desk, hoping I was not that weekend kind of looking like oh darn, you know, have an engagement, but in fact I was so I said: let's go for it, so we had people twenty folks from that part of the country from southwest ohio, for friday night, all day, saturday and sunday afternoon, thirteen hours- and it was a remarkable experience.

we asked people why they came and they said they couldn't. They didn't wanna keep living with the acrimony they. So we have a small town, at the hospital. The round we got schools with educate our kids, we get roads, defects and we can go on this way. So there was a concern about their community about the country. And they wrote a report. We wrote a report with them to the nation about this experience and then restart the disease. media interviews and I did a radio national public radio calling show with two women from ohio, a red and blue, would become friends. We talked about the experience and then from around the country. People started the email us saying: could you come I town and do one of these workshops and will put up at our houses will recruit. The people will find that the visa lodge whatever, and so we said- okay, so we just so. We have to keep going better angels.

The term will wonder: you described the gas from the abraham, lincoln termer, the better angels of our nature. It's the last words of his first inaugural address, trying to prevent the civil war. So you To be clear, you make it sound, that'll, take deliberately but you make it sound a little bit easier than it actually was. It's not like you just get the people in a room and let it rip what I was very impressed by watching you and action at this a format and national conference, where you were, you had better members of better angels from all over the country getting together and then you're also running groups with reds and blues, and I watched a ceremony We moderates several of these groups and there is a real system, could break it down. What's it like in the room, what how do you structure it and why he is kind of like marriage, counselling and away

that you want to create an environment that minimizes reactivity that maximizes the chance that people will hear each other, and so, if you just gather people around the table and toss out topics, it will be a disaster because they will interrupt each other talk over each other characterize the other person's position. It'll just be like in a family thanksgiving. So instead what we did was created a process, in which there is calmness in the room, and there are exercises that people go through like one that I know you saw a fishbowl exercise in some of your listeners may have heard about. This is a common technique where you have two groups who are different some way and silver coin and you decide who is going to be in the middle chairs in a circle for the first part and the other groups. sitting on chairs on the outside. Listening to the conversation and not interrupting not saying anything

no verbal or nonverbal participation to learn how these people see themselves and the world that your job when you're in there so the people in the middle or talking yes and there really it's like your eavesdropping on radiation from the other half of america. Exactly the sort of thing we hardly ever get to do because we usually were in the congress, and the people in the middle or not arguing with each other. They just explaining themselves and then, of course you flip the outsiders in the inside out two questions in our better angels. Rebel workshops in the middle of the first question is: why are your size, values and policies good for the country? Why you're size values and policies good for the countries, the first question, and so it lets conserved say why they think the world is better and people flourish better when we have conservative principles and values policy. and they have the level the blues do the same thing on their site, then. The second question is part of a better angels ethic. The second

question is: what are your reservations or concerns about your own site and that's the humility part of it and so first cry Man like I remember I read- we use red and blue rather than the brook concern a red saying that free market capitalism has raised more people out of absolute poverty in this world and then government programme- massive breakthroughs, you know as you get micro lending and people with their own cell phones and small businesses, and is right about that. That was part of the first part he cared about human flourishing for people who are in power. both unusually here reds talk that way. Of idealism, about capitalism and then, on the second question, what he reservations and concerns He said you know, we say all the ships will rise. You know when the capitalism will generate wealth and he said

it. Doesnt rise fast enough for everybody, and there are people left behind and we're not often so good and what to do for and with those people, while the tide is coming it so Say you ve got the red in the middle, and the blues are listening. At the end of the allotted time, where the reds have spoken in the middle, what happens next, then? You just shift Are there no interaction? Neither daddy point. Both sides have to give a chance to hear the other side. Ok with you, the thing about the hearing of the exercise is not just like. Ok, I'm conservative and I spent an hour- listen dns NBC, where people are shouting, I'm actually listened to read people, anger, people talking down to earth terms, that's right and the regular people don't talk in bullet points. We ve moved on

People have an initial experience like this. They can move on to other workshops where we talk about topics, and so we recently did one on abortion. Where we had. You know eight people who were strongly pro life and eight people are strongly pro choice. So you can get some really tough issues, but when you frame questions such as, what's the heart of this issue, for you what's the heart of this issue, for you, you get people telling stories you get people talking from their values as opposed to are you pro choice or pro life and give us the reasons in our public sphere? People sound like talking points when you pose the question with the heart of this issue. For you, you get something else so one size in the middle of the fish ball,

and they go and other side listens, then you switch it yeah and then what happens? Yes, and now here is a crucial part. The question on the table is: what did you learn about? How the other side's sees themselves, and did you see anything in common and fact that so we set it up? That's what you're, when you're in the outer elsa fishbowl charted deactivate your critic. Your argument, like our they just said that on africa ray responses. I tried to activate the curious part of your. How did they see themselves and then be open to something you see in common? So that's what you're directed to do when you listening. and so when the two groups have gone, we have people pair up a red and blue pair up for three minutes: two in a one to one process. What did you learn about? How the other sites his themselves and did you say anything? Come it? That's all that their expected to do that and then we go

either the whole group around the table again for that too part question and who wants to start red starchy go to blue. Back and forth back and forth, and the moderation of this- and this is what we train our moderators too. If anybody veers off answering those two questions. You stop them in mid sense. So if somebody were to say, I thought their second point. They didn't rip up right now, we're just answering: what did you learn about how they see themselves? I think, come just stop them. If you let them go. The other side is gonna wanna retort and it could escalate and by the way, in the ground rules where people have assented to this idea, we're only going to deal with it what's on the table at this time and that

give the moderators permission to intervene if people very often so there are two things at least that strike me as deeply wise about this approach. One is you structure to care, Really so that you're not activating the amygdala, the stress centre of the brain of the participants. Once you activate the stress enter, it would basically can't think straight and you're very carefully activating other parts of the brain which I think are probably run empathy and compassion and there's an expression it's hard to hate up close yes and after you ve said listen to the other side, hash things out in a personal way and then you're, faced with actual real life person in a diet in a one on one who it's hard to get the hatred fired up as much as it might be. If your gis

watching the other side demonized on your favorite cable channel. Yes, yet you're not doing outrage tv watching were here just those early, get her species of animals that you're watching your engaging. Did we get all the way through how a session works. well there's more of it about one of the most step in a red blue workshop. They first exercise is not the fish ball, it square. We call stereotypes exercise and that is we have. Each group goes through separate room, resin blues separately, to come up with the four top false negative, exaggerated stereotypes that people have of their of their site. What do people think of us read That is false, negative exaggerate as blows and they brainstorm a whole list, and then they vote on the top floor and then for each of those they go through two parts. One is to correct the star

type if they think that we read a racist and hate all immigrants. What's true. Instead, okay, so articulate are leaf in human equality in human dignity and are leave that america was built on immigration, and you know we want it to be legal and controlled, but we like immigration and then the second question is: what's the kernel of truth in this. What part of that may have some truth in it? That's the humility. And we give them some categories to think about kernels of truth. One may be that this may be true of a subset of your group. It may be something in a historical, that's carried over that still brands, your group. it may be in the heated rhetoric of public debate. Your site comes across this way, sometimes it

Maybe this is an area that is something you group does not focus on. A lot may be better, go blind spot or something that you relegated to a third or fourth area, but not primary. So we give him some ideas about that. So for each of those, it's like. What's your instead and is their kernel of truth, and then we select somebody from each group. They come back together to present that, to the other side, here's what we think people get wrong about us. Her sallies yourself, a give examples on the plus side, arrogance and the latest is always a big one. They government for its own sake, unpatriotic anti religious So, what's your instead and then, where did the stereotype come from in some way that might be grounded, so they can bacteria they present and then the question again, What did you learn about? How the other side's sees themselves and that you see any in common, starts with wonder wine and then around the table, so what that does?

That strategy does- and I learned it from a Boston based group, originally called public conversations. I didn't make this one up. Is you get the worst stuff out of the beginning of the workshop? Okay and the reds are always trade. Somebody around the room is kind of associate with mega racist, ok and blue is worried that there's going to be a pro life person who's your baby killer. You know people are nervous, you get all that crap out. Okay, but you're, saying about how people see your answer, you get it all out, and then you get a chance to clarify, and I want to mention Where are the idea for the colonel truth? Came cassettes apart? the original stereotypes exercise and years ago, from public conversation screw, it happened, in our second ever workshop in ohio we did the first one that was glory

and with that, while we need to do at least one more to see if the first one was a fluke and when the reds we're doing their stereotypes and the racist thing you know, that is always the first one that the reds word about seeing as racists, and so they did their correction of it and then somebody said you know I hate. When are we just get on a share, their races in our midst, and some of our leaders are courageous, say it, and that this is partly where the star tat comes from? Where they were yeah, I guess So they did that in the report up for a number of their stereotypes and blow the minds of the both, because the blues just follow the instructions, In other words, why are we not bad guys and the reds were vulnerable and it completely open up the workshop, as so, I said to myself: we gonna build that into that action, that's great. So the way goes. If I'm going to the farmer

First time at a better angels gathering we're gonna, do the stereotype exercise there were going to fishbowl and there were new, the one on ones he had. One ones are part of a larger final. Yet apart part of each one part of italy, before we process with the whole group, we process and why is that it, or are there other there three hour, the red blue these are regularly of other workshops. We were t skills and other things, but for the red blue workshop, the three our version. That's basically it and you do a kind of a check before the day, long workshop? There is a third exercise where, with questions and answers exercise, so by this time you ve heard enough from folks there's enough trust. You get a chance to ask questions Of the other side- and I want to tell you the back story here- because the very first workshop that we did you said at the beginning-

I was making sound easy. It was hard it was hard and the hardest part of it was that I made a mistake with a design. I thought that I, explaining the difference between a question of curiosity and a gotcha question and give examples, would be enough for people to be able to ass, good questions that were not versions of my favorite gotcha one would be so given your candidate is a known sexual, predator, It- is about how you came to vote right. So I explained it give people a few minutes to write the crisis and the got in sub groups and of the questions are terrible in terms they just stirred d and then I had to use my therapist skills, then to help people down refer thanks. I remember one particularly angry blue, almost left the workshop she felt

was stifling hers. I haven't make up with her afterwards. You know, because I wouldn't let her just ask these questions so from then on. What we do is we get the reds and the blues in separate rooms, twenty minutes to come up with for good questions for the other group, and we curate them, and it's actually kind of fun cause they make me is how it really like ass. but ok, that's gonna serve to pessimism and by the way, by this time they come to know each other bitten. They don't really want to put the other group on this, but so does this process work? How do you define? Yes, oh so what we ve been able to do so far with our very limited resources. Is we when evaluation at the end of the workshop, around the goals of it, understanding the other side, more deeply, feeling more understood. Feeling, like you, have some skills to have conversations

and those are very positive. You know you know we have a one to ten scale and about between seven and eight, you know is where people come out. They feel like they got some We now I'm glad to say we ve been out there for a couple years now we're attracting interest from academic In other words, so there's a study under way at six universities now with college students, we call randomize controlled trial with control group. That's going to follow people overtime, and so we'll know more about you know more scientifically and how it's going, but I can say, as people's subjective experience of this, when we ask people to check out at the end about you know what they're taking with them. The biggest one they say is that I have hope for the country. I learned that people on the other side are people who I share the concern about our country. With that. I share some common boughs with, even though we differ a lot on policy so that people tend to take from animal no scientifically more overtime. There's a fur

Is that I love that. I heard for the first time, while hanging out with you guys, which is that europe. Goal is not to get convert to win, convert it's to arrive at quote accurate, agreement, yeah, that's one of the girls, I say the accurate disagreement goal is that we both actually understand each others. Those which then allows us to see where we differ. Most conflict and disagreement about politics is each side stereotyping. The other side, you guys don't care about fiscal responsibility and we do guys, don't care about the poor and we do ok at a larger level, but even on particular policies. People can't articulate in a way that the other side could get. You know my position on that and what happens if I was

found in this so around the gay marriage issue some years ago with a group that met several times pro and anti gay marriage. The achievement- nobody changed their minds, but they actually understood the other person's position more and then people could leave friends because, where people get angry, is this exaggerating my view you're saying what I don't care about, seeing an ignorant so accurate disagreement? Humanizing and accurate disagree, yeah yeah, seeing each other understand each other beyond stereotypes, finding common ground and accurate disagreement on the things that you different. While we don't have scientific evidence, yet it seems like it is in the offing. One qualitative result that is compelled

is that a new feature these folks on your website. There holly strange bedfellows. Now they all these real friendships, and I met these people and I can confirm this real warmth and that does not appear to be affected, who between reds and whose I did a store in: u s front line, and we followed one one of these pairs. It was up traditional red voter the guy. I forget it break break right and clia We are coup jar who is an immigrant and the software design guy and I think greg's, a former cop yep construction worker, evangelical christian and a cu yds software engineer, if I recall- and he who you are lives in a affluent urban gregg lives in an excerpt in a more rural area and you'll be hard pressed to find two more constitutionally differ. and human beings and they really like each other men. I kept poking added. I think they have just arrived at accurate disagree.

Maintaining humanizing right and the thing is they just happened to sit next to each other at the workshop. This was no design- and I remember one of the things they said to each other at that very first workshop. In a pair, they both said their religions have been hijacked clears. Religion is islam, If you believe is from IRAN is from arena, they both love this country, and they completely disagree about things like abortion for gregg. Abortion is like the central issue in his work. old and for him to be able to be friends. Somebody who is not a christian and be who is pro choice is really quite remarkable, so how as the organization grown. Is it the starting, sixteen were in twenty twenty. Now, how robust is it? You mention limited resources here, that's whatever

There's a lot more money and polarization than deep polarization about. We decided two thousand seventeen to be, A membership organization membership is just while hours a year and so were up, I think, nine thousand members and growing, and we have had workshops, I think in thirty seven states so he's had five or six hundred workshops. Fuel retrain moderators. We have alliances in about twenty states in these are people who have been through initial workshops, and then they form red blue alliances. They may monthly talk about his shoes spots rather workshops. We are getting interest from poetic fox in minnesota, where I'm from. I did a workshop for thirty

members of our state legislature, a skills workshop, so we haven't talked about that as much, but we have skills workshops where we teach people how to listen in a way that the other fears understood how to express your political views in a way that they're more apt to absorb those have people practice. So thirty legislators both have workers republicans and when I asked him why they came a number them said. when they were door, knocking during the last election, the biggest issue they heard from constituents, both sides lebrun conservatives get over. This divisiveness is paralyzing us paralyzing government and I still remember a republic. As for senior committee member, I was only when they are in a suit and type when we had the practice making put political points with I messages, rather than just sort of absolute truths. Statements on the things we teach. This is how I see it

after practice. He said you know I sound more human this way, so we're going to be doing a workshop for county commissioners in minnesota, coming up, because they're kind of different parts of the state are split and we did a workshop for the congressional staff. Members of two members of congress from our minnesota delegation representing team, phillips and representative stubborn are both freshmen in the congress in the house and the members of something called the problem, solvers caucus, which has a twenty four republicans. Twenty four democrats were committed that by partisanship So we had seven of their staff members each other staff members together for a full day going through a better ranges, die workshop. It was really powerful. Much more of my car with bill. Dorothy ran after this when we think

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flat on the one area or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to the big flop early and ad free on one replaced, get started with your free trial and wondering dot com. Slash plus I think what you're doing is really important super interesting and by the way, I just want to point out that we're going to in a minute dive deep into the skills, because I think people listening to this show are going to want that before we get to Let me just ask this: having said what I just said, I think the group is fascinating and the work is unimpeachable to use a loaded term important. Why do you think more people are not doing this, and do you get discouraged looking at the size of the organization and ie seemingly on relenting pace of polarisation in this country. Well, I dont get the scars

to say I heard the optimistic irish genes, not the depressive twice when so I look at it. This way that were involved in social change, cultural change and the fao. Stage, and that is naming a problem. And now one thing enter agrees on and there was a recent. Nothing pure paul, or at least ninety five percent of americans agree were too divided. That's The posture said you don't get ninety five percent agreement on the earth being round me. This is unanimous, so the beginning of change is naming a problem and The problem that people are naming is not just the other side. Okay, it's about. We when you talk about polarization, is like a married couple saying we have a problem in our relationship. It isn't just your bugging me. We have a problem, and so that is beginning to take hold on the country and

the beginning of change and for me, with our low resource target, we have about seven staff members. Everybody else, including me, is a volunteer. We have people who have retired and devoted their entire retirement to this work is nominal its phenomenal. So I think- and there are other organisations working in this this field too, so I think there's something beginning to shift. So I am hopeful. I do want to point out that a particular advances better. Just as from the beginning, we made the decision that our leadership board staff leadership group, core volunteers, state coordinators- would be halfway. a blue, so I'm gonna leadership, zoom call every week that is half right, Angelo and there is a purifying element

you're, not in your own group. You dont have just your own assume the language and so I've learned for if or how colorized language are so blue terms like diversity and equity and inclusion and privilege right blues. Every other word is privilege these days. You know my privileges and that kind of thing, and these perfectly fine terms and they lately turn off reds, so you have in your company, you have it your university. A division for diversity inclusion and Those words say to read: not may at any time everybody else but me and they hold back at that's not what is intended by this house receive similarly red terms like self sufficiency alone. The country. You know american greatness fiscal responsibility what's wrong with us terms, but they trigger blows.

And I learned this through better angels. Where are you where my red blue? I don't talk about that. You don't know If your group is going to be meticulous about- making sure there's even representation between red and blue. How do they classify you, if it blacken orders oppressor. My are given permission to be whites, white hat yeah. That's right, what I can tell you my own transformation, that I always wanted to be bilingual, but never was. But now I am, I can speak redder blue catch, it that's a valuable skill, so skills talk about that, because I think many of the people listening for better or worse probably, I can go to a workshop, but they may having their orbits somebody or set people with whom they disagree so and actually by the way, these skills are eminently scalable beyond

political disagreement to digest human disagreement here, so I know of- and let's start with these three skills that I know of, and then we can go beyond that. If you want one of these, recommendations from you and you ve already reference. This is you I language you often hear this insert of various touchy feely workshops. then in over the years, keep it in the eye Why is that so important here we say: use I statements rather than truth statements. So I'll start with the truth, Even things is the way the us? Ok, you know it, you're, a red saying emigrants take jobs from america. as you know, particularly illegal onward. They take our jobs, and that is a example. The true statement chances are the person saying this is not a researcher on immigration and cry. Came they read that somewhere they ve heard this summer, but to say from I understand

from what I have read or, from my perspective out his own it? So this is how what I think is going on, based on what I have read, what I've heard, I'm still making the same point, but I'm not saying this guy's blue dummy, true statements around politics tend to come with a comma at the end dummy if you don't agree with me on that, whereas to say ice believe this. I see this. This is but I'm basing it on so you can be. This is why not touching feeling you can be vigorous on that, and still put, am I in there and some of what I explained this to people that almost none of us have direct personal access to policy relish Facts do a little side on this now because blues in particular like to say we can't even agree on facts, so we have to establish

fact basis before we can have the policy discussion in those people on the other side there just watching fox news and their completely be raft of facts or how, though, even talk to these people. This is part of why blues get called arrogant and leave us further. and part of what I say on that. I realize I'm running on your original question. Her reference is that most of us don't have direct access to policy relevant facts. If you're, not a climate scientists, you don't know the science behind climate change, for the rest of us. We rely on experts that we trust reliance says it's a matter of trust, social trust where we get information related to policy that we believe is credible and so Why not say this is my understanding of this based on where I got my information.

What that opens up is the other person with invited to make an ice statement as well. That based on what they understand, that they don't think that's true and now not having a clash of religious truth. You know, god is this: god is that Jesus does that's just as those just they're. Just the clashing truth statements better to use. I statements. Another of your precepts is, I don't try to convince anybody, don't try to win yeah yeah. If you start out the conversation with the idea that my goal is to persuade you to change your mind about something, that's important to you, you're done from the beginning,

We have a brand new workshop by the way on families in politics and the weak called the prime directive for talking about politics with relatives in this to be true for close friends better, the prime directive is: do not try to change your family member. You can only change yourself, do not try to change a family member, and so particularly nowadays, when political beliefs, and affiliation have become part of a dedicated for so many people with their part of core values there is a moral tone to being a republican or democrat these days in a way that it didn't used to be before. If that person in the conversation gets the sense that you want to change their political philosophy beliefs, something gonna. Just absolutely rebel rule of thumb from you is: don't characterize the other parties, yes positions, only your

Yes, yes, it goes along with the eye statement. Thing speak from your own convictions, your own beliefs and dots characterize the others, because in evidently they will not see it. The way you just characterized so this something from from marriage counselling, is when somebody says well. My wife thinks this about this issue. I just stop them immediately, because unless this person, just quoting her for what she said two minutes ago, using her exact words, there's a good chance that she doesn't quite see it exactly like that and so an that's. Even if you're trying to be nice to somebody, let alone, if your characterizing their side that you disagree with, so you set up these straw. Arguments on your side doesn't-

you, don't even understand how important immigration is to our economy and then you just gonna get defensiveness. So it's we talk about it in family there we talk about dreams, saying oh, my side of the boundary so that I am not characterised. You and your people in is it. Inevitably, you will not think are fair going for me to see these rules and realise that I break all of them all the time. Are there other?

deals that are whack solved. A mention. Another won't find something to agree with in the other person's view. Before you disagree. That means you have actually listened to them can find something to agree with and it could be something like. I agree. This is eight we're in a mass on immigration. Ok or I agree, we haven't figured out how to do this gun control thing in our countries really or you're a blue, and you Walk into a second amendment, oriented read, and you don't want to abolish the second amendment. You don't want to take away everybody's guns in the country, but that's it this way. The person may think you want to do cause you're and high dungeon about the measuring, since, as so

If you begin by saying I'm with you on, americans have the right to bear arms and I don't want to take away responsible people's guns. It's part of our culture and I think it ought to be. You have to actually believe what you just said: okay, but something to agree with what that does- is softens the other person, because if you agree with me on something done, I think you're not maybe as dumb as I thought, you were, you've found something in me or it could be. Let's take immigration, almost anybody. Neither side could say this with confidence and have the other person agree that both political party, it's been kicking the can down the road on immigration for the last thirty years, even when they had big majorities in congress. Okay and we as a country have been not responsible on this, and both parties are at fault. chances, are whoever your disagreeing with is going to agree with what you just said so find something has to be real, find something too

agree on, if I say you're having a big debate about healthcare, medicare fraud versus more market oriented thing, you could say that I agree with you. That have to find a way that everybody gets good healthcare in this country. So anyway, my point is something to agree with and then get oh yeah yeah, yeah you're right blah blah blah and then there's a new scale were teaching. Now that I mentioned this a before somebody is really worked up about their assure you find something agree with, and then the scales called pivoting before I come up with my counter position. Basically asking permission took it in so you're, really fired up about gun control- and I say I'm with you- young glove obama, buck grid with that and then instead of just saying, I think we should

the limited guns, a lot more, let's say, if I'm the blue to say, as so, I have some thoughts about the constitution and what we can do with it. I have some thoughts, but I've been thinking about this. That's called a pivot, you're signaling that you want to get with your own perspective and then you're looking for either nonverbal or verbal agreement. For that, when I explained pivoting to people, I think a give an example. Let's say in a group conversation people who are very skilled, who want to change the topic and we've been on the finances and I think we need to move to personnel. They don't just do it change the topic. They say. I wonder if we could change the subject right now and move over to such and such, and they looked for the on the group from the group, and then they do it. S got a pivot, and so particularly conversations with somebody who's really fired up about it in our where we talk the family gladiator,

at the gladiators agreement. For you to start giving your perspective conceptualize First time when I was on an override with a guy from a small so The term in ohio it was the only or where they call him hooper jack in on me, and so he picked me up at the airport in society. We had a long trip and so he was going on for at some length about how he thought about present trump and change. Minor this and then the other thing, and then Now, listen them engaged and then, at one point I just said, does so interested in my thoughts about the present I said he I and so then I have the floor. I had the floor, so that's another kind of new one word.

doing so to summarize these two additional ones, its find something to agree with before you disagree and acquire susie. I statements inside and consider particularly if it's kind of a tense situation consider a pivot where you get the go ahead. To then give your own perspective. I like it, because what you're doing for europe interlocutor here is two things one playing into the visceral, primordial appeal of being heard because you're finding something in order to have found an area of disagreement you would have had to have listened and then restated in your own language, which feels good, even if the present, don't even know it's happening. Google and you're getting their consent to pivot and people like having their consent sought. Yes, so ok, so we just learned a bunch from you

five skills. Behavior change it hard have a change have formation habit. Breaking habits are all really hard things. How would you a man we start operational? this advice and our own lives once we can. All do is planned in advance, so chances are. If you gotta have difficult conversations cross political difference are gonna, be with the same people, it's you Do it on the subway is gonna, be somebody in your life. Your old friend run. Interior law whatever, and that there's a certain amount of predictability in this one of the things we say in this new families and politics workshop has an advantage with family is a very predictable. This is not your first rodeo with your family and You can actually plan in advance to approach the conversation.

Not in a reactive way, like somebody pops off with something about it. You know and then you're in, but your migdal activated. You could actually go into it. Saying I'm going to try out some skills here, I'm going to try out agreeing with find something to agree with first and see how that goes, and this is something that I practice in my own life. I have. I have relatives around the country, some of whom I visit and some of whom come to Minnesota, who are all over the place politically and by the way. As an aside extended, families are one of the last bastions of political diversity in our country, because you didn't choose your in laws, you know in your cousins and all those people, starting out your parents, your siblings, but you got a sort of hang out with them. So I have some relatives that when I visit her they visit ass. I plan I am looking forward to a conversation. in which I am not starting out a triggered, and so

The things I do say it with one relative is to say so how are people in your part of the country viewing the president president trump right now. People love to expound and you notice. The question was How are you feeling? I could ask that, but I'd ask a more kind of sociological. Is. There is also not values laid in euro, saying how are people you're part of the country think about those awful senate timber? remember how people in your brother country thing about this terrible president bright, blue practice, the scale and you there two things in there that I heard that I really agree with. Related one is makes a lot of sense to think ahead. Give in how hard it is to operational eyes, new skills, who the other is one can approach this with a certain amount of delight and interest, because it can invert the situation, in other words Instead of the dread, you may feel bunker obnoxious uncle. This is an opportunity to practise a skill.

That's gonna help you in many areas of her life and then the whole complexion of the opportunity obligation changes. Yes, another idea. Can I hear that guy got over there, I understand I think- and I said publicly, a column about your work for men's health, and I proposed the following, and I expect you might have Although I never really ass. You know you, you do agree. I think that I think are contemplative practice meditation she gone that comes to mind, reduces the baseline level of a magdala aggravation who am can familiarize you with your own mind in a way that reduces the odds that you're getting a triggered, gives you may notice some noxious thoughts emanating from your mind and you're not is likely to be caught up in them

can be a really salutary addition to this process. The absolutely absolutely I'm thinking of at the moment, as you were talking of a judge friend of mine, whose retired judge, who is a long term editor, who we completely agree with what you're saying and applies it in the court where people are only in front of him because they're serious conflict- and he talks about me, training his own kind of emotional state. and he also says he can sort of tell which lawyers or meditators are not by their bearing. So I think that this is helpful in our work and it's also helpful in these relationships that we have, and I want to tied specifically into not wanting to change people because the heart of close relationships.

It's accepting people accepting that this person, who I love, who I struggle with sometimes is who they are, that come to this point in their life, and this is how they see the world, and this is how they see politics, and they are not asking me to change them and it's not my job to change them, and I can feel okay myself with them as they are. I have a meditation Joseph goals need very close with him. I was listening to him, give top recently about a kind of meditation called mehta emmy teeth, or loving kindness, meditation, where you repeat these sort of phrases of well wishing and hurled them mentally, silently at various people in your life and when he said that there has been a lot of study, that this type of meditation is very effective in lots of ways psychologically and physiologically for people in. But one of the things he said was the radical.

Take away from this kind of meditation- is the way you feel about. Another person is not contingent upon their behaviour is contingent upon your mindset beautiful and That is, that it changes the way you move well. My experience. change the aim of the world and I will also say just on this issue of the for I was given my opinion about how approaching heretofore dreaded conversations and who the sense of opportunity of I'm not talking. This is in academic year. I've done a reasonable amount of communications training myself, because I communication skills in many areas have been deeply lacking and it really I've noticed that applying them the conversations with a certain amount of excitement, because, unlike this is a chance for me to practice and by the wayside practicing some random new skills. It doesn't matter, it's like my yo yo skills have gotten better it's

that. My life is better as a consequence of doing this. My did moment to moment experience of being alive and being in relationships with other homo sapiens is way more easily. Yeah, that's beautifully said, and what I want to add is that if I can approach people with curiosity because I'm not trying to change them, then sometimes I listened for and ask for the deeper story behind the disagreement. So a relative with very strong opinions about the political issue comes out of law enforcement and when I took the time one day to get some deeper background stories,

I understood a lot better how this person came to their views, even if they sometimes say them in ways that are kind of sharp. There is something soft underneath you know him therapy. We talk about the hard feelings and south feelings, hearing angers, ard, feeling of frustration and resentment, there's always soft feelings under them, and I think, in the same way, for people who are tick curly hard to take. Sometimes, with their political views, you know they're making their truth, parents are absolute and the other side, as you know, is entirely wrong. There's something under there. That is making them come across in this way, and if you, I tried to change them and you are interested in the deeper story and you wouldn't like now, when you having that conversation, you completely let go of having to express your view in other, is your kind of an end.

policies and by the way you dont have to relinquish your values. To do this. Now you is in your in Breast, given the you don't, have a choice anyway, he asked to have these conversations turn into something that can be interested. scale building restorative as opposed to a grind. Demoralising and you can still believe what you believe- and I have found that if people can differ from a greatly in the end? They know it. We both know it if they feel my respect. I remember guy saying I just want to be treated as it: moral and intellectual, equal. That is a very smart guy. He was a university professor in a school. adding that aware

was in the minority when he was a red and he was in a higher education is very blue and he said I'd pay will have to give them. I just want to be treated as a moral intellectual, equal lemme ask you inclosing you ve chosen to build a life where you're putting yourself in the middle of click on the regular you working with red and blue you working with couples on the verge of of divorce. I police and black I was just going to say at me. I know you do all sorts of other community oriented work. Why You could have a much easier quote: unquote: life in many ways. Why do you do this? Nobody's ever asked me that I enjoy

being in the middle of action. I enjoy being close to the tension points in the pivot points. Were there can be breakthroughs? I think that's how I would answer at I I like bringing what I can bring to those very difficult moments. So I clinical specialty is couples on the brink of divorce, where one wants out or certainly leaning out of the relationship and the other wants to save it. So they have very different agendas and I do brief work with them at no. More than five sessions is called discernment, counseling and I love the intensity of it and love the intent I still have it, but I hear you saying is not only you love the intensity of it, but you also love the fact that you could help yeah, you know enough in chemistry. Their talk about that become again are far from equal, a ray of states of chemicals systems, that's where change can occur, and so

There are pressure points, so everything I do is try to look for a pressure point. Something has to give here, we can't go on like we are, and then what can I do with that pressure point right? There were something may pop. I know I said I was my last question about something came to mind that you had said to me on our first meeting, which was actually this work with red and blue is harder than working with. yeah that there is with couples. There is a history of love there, the shared that they have children together with their cancers? You know there's glue that has been there. And with reason blues were living in different, highlight you know they look at the countries. The map, the red and the the when we were moving away from each other. and shutting down and then how the ability to communicate when we come together. So in that way it's more difficult. Well, I heard you say before that you ve got the optimism.

gene from your irish forebears. Well, I don't know if I have that from my on one side, jewish forebears in the other side and scottish, but I hope you're right, I hope you're right, because, as a journalist, I see this terror. Apart from all the time and its tar to watch, really perceive them, and I happy to do it. I'm thrilled forego. If people want to learn more about better angels or join or support, how can it do so so Google, better angels, technically, better hyphen angels, dot org, and please we have an online skills workshop that people when they join, and we have lots of things going on around the country great job. Thank you. Thank you. Big thanks to bill and big thanks as well to the folks who worked so hard to put this show together. Samuel jaws is our senior producer degree

cashmeres are producer. Jewels dodson is our ap are sound. Designer is met boyton from ultraviolet audio maria We're tell us our production coordinator. We get a ton of massively helpful input from tpa colleagues such as gent point nick. he'll be been reuben endless, levin. And finally, as always, big thank you to my abc use, comrades rang kessler and Josh co hand will see on friday for a bonus a prime members, you can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon music downloading amazon music cap today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad, Tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com, slash servant.