Before we dive in, a warning: this conversation includes descriptions of abuse and violence.
As you may know, March 8th, the day we’re dropping this episode, is International Women’s Day. We have a story today about intimate violence, which has long been a problem for women around the world, and has only intensified during the pandemic.
My guest is Tanya Selvaratnam, a writer and artist who I’ve known socially for many, many years. I was truly shocked when Tanya’s name surfaced in the media three years ago, in connection with the case of Eric Schneiderman. Eric was the celebrated Attorney General of New York State. He was also a regular on the local meditation scene. I knew Eric and Tanya were dating. What I did not know was that, behind the scenes, Eric was allegedly physically and emotionally abusing Tanya. She has now come out with a book, called Assume Nothing, which goes into searing detail about not only the alleged abuse, but also about how she flipped the script, regained her agency, helped bring her alleged abuser down, and how she has healed subsequently -- in no small part through meditation and therapy.
Please note: If you or someone you know is suffering from abuse, you can find resources curated by Tanya at the “full shownotes” link below.
We’d also like to provide more context about the allegations Tanya shares in this interview: When the allegations of abuse against New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman by Tanya and three other women were first made public in The New Yorker in May 2018, Schneiderman quickly resigned. In a statement at the time, he said, “serious allegations, which I strongly contest, have been made against me.” He also said, “While these allegations are unrelated to my professional conduct or the operations of the office, they will effectively prevent me from leading the office’s work at this critical time. I therefore resign my office.” After a six-month investigation, prosecutors declined to bring criminal charges against Schneiderman, citing legal impediments, including statutes of limitations. But the district attorney assigned to the case by Governor Andrew Cuomo also said that she “believed the women who shared their experiences” with investigators. In response, Schneiderman said, "I recognize that District Attorney Singas' decision not to prosecute does not mean I have done nothing wrong. I accept full responsibility for my conduct in my relationships with my accusers, and for the impact it had on them." I should also note that our team reached out to Eric Schneiderman and that he declined to comment for this episode.
Two more items: First, remember to check out “In Plain Sight: Lady Bird Johnson,” a new podcast from ABC News, on Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/ladybird), Spotify (https://spoti.fi/3ukYgoq), or wherever you’re listening now.
Finally, we are looking for a podcast marketer at Ten Percent Happier. If you love this show, marketing, and building relationships, we would love to have you on the team to help us grow Ten Percent Happier and our future shows. Please apply at https://www.tenpercent.com/careers.
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/tanya-selvaratnam-328
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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from ABC this is
ten per cent happier podcast dan harris.
Hi everybody.
before we dive in a little bit
warning. This conversation includes descriptions of abuse and violence
as you may know, march eighth day were dropped
This episode is international women's day and we have a story. Tat
about intimate violence, which has, of course, a law
been a problem for women around the world and has only unfortunately intensified during the pandemic. My guest is time
yeah silva rotten, she's, a writer and an artist to I've actually known socially for many many years. I was truly shocked when,
hung his name surfaced in the media three years ago. In connection with the case of Eric schneider, Eric was the
celebrated attorney general of new york state
was also a regular on the local meditation seen in new york city. I knew that
continue were dating. Would I did not know was that behind the scenes Eric was allegedly physically and emotionally abusing tanya, she is
How come out with a book called assume nothing which goes
who searing detail about not only the alleged abuse but also about how she ultimately flip. The script
regained. Her agency hell
bring her alleged abuser down and how she has subsequently healed in no small part through
adaptation and therapy.
before we die, then I'd also like to provide a little
more context about the allegations your
here. Tanya make when the charges of abuse against new
attorney general Eric Schneiderman by tanya and three other women were first made public
in the new yorker magazine back in may of two thousand, a eighteen schneider quickly resigned in a statement
time. He said, and I am quoting here, sir
Is the allegations which I strongly contest have been made against me? He also said,
and according again here, while these allegations are unrelated to my profession,
conduct or the operations of my office. They will effectively print
and me from leading the office is work at this critical time
I therefore resign my office
There was then a six month investigation, after which prosecutors declined to bring criminal charges against
Should I remain in november of two thousand eighteen, the dna assigned to the case by newark governor Andrew como.
Cited legal impediments, including statutes of limitation, but she also said
quoting again here that she believed the women who shared their experiences with investigators. In response schneider man said, I recognise that the district attorney's decision not to profit
It does not mean I have done nothing wrong. I accept full responsibility for my conduct in my relationships with my accusers and for the impact it has on them. Well,
Thing to say here before we dive in, and that is that we
to reach out to Eric Snyder men and he declined to comment. Ok,
Having said all that lets,
I've been now with my friend, tanya silver rotten, tanya nice- to see you thanks for coming.
nice to see you too damn thanks for having me the pleasure, even though it's a tough topic. Having said that that it is a topic, let's dive right into the hard part
first, can you tell me a little bit about how you ended
in a relationship with Mister Schneiderman. We met in two thousand and sixteen at the democratic national convention and when he first approached me, I was taken with how much attention he gave me. It felt too good to be true. It started out like a fairy tale. We had so much in common, a commitment to progressive causes, an interest in spirituality and meditation, and we had both,
on to harvard we both steady chinese, we're both spent time in China. It was a very kind of nerdy flirtation
then we got to know each other over the course of a couple of weeks.
Then over time. The fairy tale.
turned into a nightmare. The darkness started to see Ben
And I went through the stages that are common for other people who get entangled in abusive relationships
starts with be controlling behaviour, the isolation, the manipulation the gas fighting. I wasn't prepared for when my path with intersect within abuser, I wasn't prepared for the gas lighting.
And manipulation, and then it started to feel like I was in Hell. It got worse, especially after the election in two thousand sixteen and then the inauguration in early two thousand seventeen there is an increasing now
a spotlight on him. He was more stressed out. He was more depressed and his drinking was increasing,
The physical violence that happened in the sexual context was shocking and for
for too long, I didn't tell people about it. I was ashamed and also I was keeping his secret. I also
I believed him when he said that he was going to get help. I thought he could change you in my opinion, quite bravely. Go into a lot of detail about this in the book which I I recommend, everybody
In particular, I remember being really you know, shocked by your description of the first instance of violence.
You comfortable talking a little bit about that here?
Written about it so yeah, I'm comfortable talking about it. It's hard to talk about it's embarrassing to talk about, but I also feel that by being candid about these micro details of what happens
An abusive relationship gives a window for people
understand, more and also for other victims and survivors to connect more so when he first slapped me across the face during sex it
me by surprise. No man had ever done that to me before I had never been an abusive relationship before and it started out like he was testing me.
and then it happens in the blink of an eye and it happens at night. It's dark your naked.
You're in a more vulnerable place.
and over time, the slab scott harder and were accompanied by demands.
In addition to the slapping there was the choking and spitting and as stinging as the physical abuse, was
verbal abuse and the emotional abuse, so one of them
with memories I have is how he referred to my scars when
first started, seeing each other. He would
get my scars like a badge of courage. I scars from surgery for cancer
at run down the length of my torso. Then over time my scars were ugly to him and he wanted me to get plastic surgery to remove them. He also wanted me to get a boob job and he was criticizing my hair and he always made me feel, like
I was doing something wrong and what I would discover later is that I was part of a pattern, but at the time I thought the abuse with specific to me, because it
manifested seemingly out of nowhere, and also I was duped because he surrounded himself with.
Feminists. He was known as an advocate of women's rights, a champion for feminism and also a channel
and four meditation and spirituality, and so I see now how I got sucked in- and I wrote the book so that, hopefully others don't get sucked into you mentioned earlier-
um. I think you kind of described in his classic tactics of abusers. I think you listed isolation, gas lighting control.
how did that show up in your relationship? The isolation is cutting the victim off from their family and friends. So a concrete example when I would be talking on the phone with my friends and even with my mother, he would
Trying to get me to get off the phone, even though he was often on the phone himself. This is in the apartment, even if I had the door closed when I was speaking to them. Another example is when I was speaking at an event
on march twenty of my birthday, my friends had arranged for a birthday cake and also for drinks afterward. He attended the event and then insisted immediately afterwards, though,
beef and my friends are all kind of like stunned and looking back, I kind of laugh at the absurdity of that situation
My friends, because I wasn't there for my own birthday, they went out together and had a birthday party with me
and they texted me a photo of them all toasting me at this bar.
So that's an example of the isolation.
The controlling behaviour, it's a chorus of control, so a concrete example of that is criticising my hair. My dress wanting it addressed,
certain way, but then- and this is also embarrassing- to talk about
controlling what I ate
the presbyterian, so he didn't eat meat
wouldn't let me eat meat in his presence and.
I have a vivid memory of one time.
When we were at a party
and there were waiters.
Seen around hors d'oeuvres and
One of them was a chicken sunday and I love chicken are, but I didn't take it and he glared at me after the waiter, passed by and said in, a very de boys
I saw the way you were looking at that he also didn't want me to eat sweets. He was,
invent because he didn't want me to put on weight. So I would
take the opportunities- and I was away from him when I would have dinner with a friend to order meat and towards
dessert, even if I didn't really want it, but it's important
say also that aside
From the abusive behaviour there were times when he was adoring and supportive and kind.
And so there was this, like yo yo effect of pushing me away and pulling me back, which is a tactic of abusers and
I didn't understand all the stages I had gone through that I walk the reader through in the first half of the book until
I started. Opening up to friends and one of them connected me with domestic violence, counselor, who
Helped me understand what I had gone through.
So help me understand that what I went through was completely common in abusive relationships. Then, halfway through the
When I get out of the relationship after connected with domestic violence expert, the script gets flit, because I begin to have agency over the story and over my future and then the roller coaster begins with me, realizing that I have to come forward, because I find out in a cosmic way that I was not the first woman. He had abused.
And knowing that I probably wouldn't be the last, I want to get into that, because it's incredible and really brave
before we go there that I would admit that before reading your book, I I really was quite ignorant
about this issue and end appreciated reading the book, because I learned so much and
one of the things that I realized. I a belief I mistakenly held
laser lee- was it
There might be a certain type of person who would end up in an
use of relationship, and I met you out of fifteen sixteen years ago and certainly didn't think of you.
That way, and one
and you ve said- is that and gonna look at my notes here to get the quote even fierce women get abused
Can you say more about this sort of misconception? A victim looks like all of us, and perpetrators are of all stripes and the statistics on intimate partner. Violence are.
Devastating that about one in four women and one in ten men will experience some form of violence in an intimate relationship during their lifetime.
and of those many millions of people experience at files before the age of eighteen. So one of the big challenges I feel.
A head, and one of the reasons I wrote the book is
Dream reader, for me, is a high school age person because the conditioning
that begins when were born to normalize abuse and to know.
Lies violence. We need to chip away at that conditioning cause. I think there are the victims of abusers.
But I also feel that the abusers are products of the conditioning by society.
there's a civil war between feminists and patriarchs and,
some beside a feminist are not only women and those on the side of patriarchs are not only men and we have to fight for a world that is safer for all,
women and men, and it's important to understand that anyone can become a victim. I wasn't prepared for when my path would intersect within abuses.
Even though I have grown up in a household where there is horrific domestic violence between my parents, I witnessed it myself. I stood up to my father,
I stood between my mother and father and my father would try to hit her. I even tried to get my mother to divorce my father. I am grateful that in my situation it lasted a relatively short period of time. It was about.
Here. My mother endured domestic violence for decades.
and so many women dont, have the support network that I was fortunate to have
To help me get out and to surround me with love and comfort and strength, and so many people stay and abusive relationships, because
don't have the financial independence to get out of them or because they have people not supporting them getting out of them. So I also wrote the book for people who might know loved
an abusive relationships to potentially be a lifeline to those people,
Who has unfortunately, timely right now and I'm sure you'll be able to educate me on this, but, as I understand it, the
Where's around domestic violence,
growing up in the pandemic. The pandemic has amplify the urgency of the domestic violence crisis. In the early months of lockdown, the united nations population fund had estimated that there would be a twenty percent increase in domestic violence incidences, and that was proven to be true in calls to hotlines. Victims were in lockdown with their abusers. They have fewer opportunities to get away and fewer opportunities to seek help and also for the children
of these victims. They would now witness more the domestic violence in their home. So there's a lot of healing and recovery to do. The pandemic has had so many levels of mental health fall out, and domestic violence is one of them
Let's talk now about your own healing and recovery and add, let's start with the flipping of the script that happens in the second part of the book, howdy,
You extricate yourself from this relationship. When I first opened up to a friend about the physical violence, she immediately said you have to get out, and I want you to speak with somebody. A friend of hers was a domestic violence expert and I never looked back. It was like the scales fell off my eyes and it was
has a friend whose, like my sister, asked me, tough questions. She could sense. I was going through a hard time. Many friends sense that I was going through a hard time, as the months went by one had said that I seemed subdued in the relationship and I said, there's a lot going on another one who said: are you ok? I said he's depressed I'm trying to help them, so I was giving these kind of coded clues without giving details, because once you give the details, you can't take them back and if he were going to get help and change, I was holding out hope. But this one friend asked, as I told her more about be drinking and the controlling behaviour, and that things were rocky
She asked: does he hit you, those forwards? Does he have you and because I would never lie to her when she asked me about
I'm gonna answered honestly. I said yes and she asked me to describe it, and so that was the turning point for me. What happened? Next,
What, fortunately, at that time, I was very busy with work
travelling a lot for work and I
we're going to los Angeles Fora, film shoot and he tried to call me a couple of times and each time with
increasing urgency three times in twenty four hours and I was trying to drift as quietly as possible and then
I finally just email him saying I'm travelling.
He thought that we were gonna have dinner, that weak and that was mid september and then, after I was back in town.
He continued wanna talk to me. It was around the time of young to poor
said he was going to do some atoning and they wouldn't have conversation. I was in constant contact with their domestic violence expert and
He just kept encourage. You may not think about him to focus on myself stay away.
don't be alone with him anymore and Eric, and I arrange to have a phone call and the phone call I have been prepared for by the domestic violence expert who gave me possible scenarios she's like you, he might break up with you, he might have gotten the hint you might have to break up with him. Just do it quietly, don't put the bear, and I was at that time, not angry. I was broken. He said in that phone call, it seems like you, ve been avoiding me. I said yeah, I just need time and he said well. Maybe we should go our separate ways and I said I think that would be for the best and he said really, and the domestic violence expert had told me to end the conversation as soon as possible to make a plan
with a friend for right afterwards, so that I had a legitimate reason to just say you have. I need to go, but then, subsequent to that many of my things were at his place. We had essentially moved in together. He
stayed at my apartment, but the domestic violence expert said you. Things are not important.
Gotta be a time when you will be ready to get them.
and make sure that when you get them, you go with a friend and that he's not there. So a couple of weeks later
This is in early november now of two thousand and seventeen. I.
did arrange to go and get my things I brought to friends with me. One of them happen to be an investigative reporter.
And in less than twenty four hours,
She had identified a previous girlfriend of Eric Snyder men who had been
early similar story.
he had taken him almost a decade before me and that I just felt like all the blood rush out of my body when she told me that- and she said I think you should speak with a lawyer- and she connected me with robbie kaplan
who would eventually become my lawyer and who would, coincidentally also event
we become the co founder of the times up legal defence fund, and I have no intention of coming forward. I was really focused on protecting myself and recovering.
But then, when I realized tat, I was part of a pattern and that the story might eventually come out. Then I wanted to survival mode and part of what made me feel like the story could come
out in some way whether through my coming forward or or through other means is because by
a convergence that still overwhelmed me. The me to movement began right then, with the breaking of the harvey wines
story, and I remember on the day that ronan pharaoh story appeared in the new yorker about harvey wednesday, in which I believe was October tenth Eric reached out to me saying I want to continue to support your good work. These are not normal times almost simultaneously. The domestic violence expert also reached out to me
She wanted to have a phone call. She wanted to make sure I was okay because she read that harvey weinstein story and felt it would be triggering for me and hearing her and receiving
emu from him on the same day that that harvey wednesday in story broke. I felt like these waves crash around me.
That suddenly I was being swept up in a global conversation,
While my story was unfolding in real time,
the major stories they were in the past. But I was experiencing a story in the present and also my story was about intimate violence in a committed relationship. It wasn't in the workplace.
he's going back a few minutes, you freely pain media here you describe herself has broken at one point. What have you done
to feel yourself. We discussed this in advance, so what am about to say is not a violation of privacy. You have a second.
trust is probably a familiar name to listeners
show doktor mark Epstein, whose both practicing buddhist stand, a medical doctor, psychiatrist.
What kind of tools do you use and how has it gone for you, this process of trying to recover from this therapy? Well, markups Epstein.
Meditation, I did your twenty one day, talent for the new year.
my medicine every morning sentence? I do two or three sessions in a day tat, ground and centre me friends. They could
as for friends whose around me and really keep me looking up and finding ways
experience joy. They do have an innate sense of joy that I was born with, like even with the health issue.
That I've dealt with with miscarriages.
and fertility and cancer with divorce and with abuse. I feel like the abusive relation with Eric was kind of the culmination of a long stretch of about six and a half years of dealing with
difficult personal experiences. But now I feel like I'm my strongest self ever because-
I have done the hard work to understand how I got into an abusive relationship. I have done the hard work of therapy and meditation and also
I wrote the book and I wrote my way out of the darkness. I'm grateful that I'm a writer and could use
skills as a writer to excavate those painful memories, both the painful memories of abuse by Eric Schneiderman, and also to excavate painful childhood memories. Of what I witnessed of domestic violence between my parents.
And I wrote the book because I was inspired by many people- that I know
and I dont know reaching out to me to share their own stories of abuse, and I felt like we need to.
Split the world open together by sharing our stories cause, there's so much shame and stigma around being a victim and a survivor.
But it's like how do you go from being a victim to a survivor to a driver, and I think it's very important to realize that you might have been a victim, but you can find power through your voice
enter your community and the importance of allies. So I feel very grateful that I have that network. Much more
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sailor with more about how meditation is useful for you. Try
I think in at a cellular level, which is what scientists understand and I wish were more widely understood. It's one of my hopes:
the book to understand how moments of abuse whether they
at last a few minutes or
many years create scars. That are a marker of time. Before and after
and no one should have to have memories like those but there's a way to heal them to kind of unseat.
Trauma that things in a cell you above level and meditation, can help with that
Is when I'm meditating
I am mining my memories and able to work things out.
And also just the physiological impacts of meditation, the breathing
the connecting with your body, your senses, the unplugging, which is so essential.
Avoiding the noise, avoiding the chatter, so that's how meditation helps me.
I'm interested in hearing more about the mind
of the memories, and we take a guess at how it my work and Daniel correct me
So you sitting feeling
breath coming and going out or whatever kind of meditation you're doing whatever you ve chosen as the object of your meditation, and then
I get ambushed by.
horrifying memory and the meditative stances to neither fight it nor feed it. You note it. Yes, is that
where the dealing comes and just sort of the warm non judgmental witnessing.
of your own trauma completely, because you can t
take a long view of the painful experiences you ve had and say those are painful, but they dont defined me. You know your experience and also I recognise that my experience is not unique to me. I'm unique, but my experience was not unique and its one that is shared
By multitudes, what role, if any, does anger play in your emotional landscape? Anger does not serve me. I was not angry with Eric, because I I recognize how much he and other abusers are the products of their conditioning. I believe in
Redemption, I believe in restorative justice. The problem is that most abusers don't acknowledged the harm that they ve done to others.
people and they don't do the work to stop being abusive.
But there was one moment when I did feel anger at eric long after I've gotten out of the relationship which was last year, two thousand and twenty
when a woman reached out to me out of the blue. While I was working on the epilogue. The final chapter of the book.
And a woman reached out by email, to tell me that she had been abused by eric after the new yorker story had come out. When I received that email, I started shaking.
And I felt rage because he had made a statement after the conclusion of the criminal investigation that was launched after the new yorker story came out
Participated in the criminal investigation because I believe in due process I subjected myself to the list
Process, in the same way that I subjected myself to the journalistic process, because I believe in
investigating allegations in this situation, because it was intimate violence in a committed relationship. It was a he said she said situation, but in my story there are multiple women interviewed, independent
we have each other very different from each other who had eerily similar stories. Objectivity emerged at the conclusion of the criminal investigation. Eric issued a statement that he up.
Just for the harm he had done and that he was getting help and with a gone to rehab. So I felt anger finally, last year.
You said anger doesn't serve you now, I'm just projecting purely because what else do I have
Oh yeah, a lot.
Well I mean I can empathize to the best of my ability, but of course, in some ways, I'm just gonna putting myself in your shoes.
Stop putting myself in your shoes, and I
just imagine that I would feel a lot of anger, whether I intellectually understood that it didn't serve me or not, and so I'm just wondering
You understand it, does it serve you, so you find it
doesn't arise or that one it does arise you're able to surfeit instead of giving into it. I think
as somebody was, a shy child and an introvert and
also somebody who is very sensitive to the image
in others. I try to put myself in other people's shoes as well and when you are able to see both sides, even if somebody who's harmed you, I'm less likely to
feel anger, and maybe this isn't the best strategic approach, but I prefer to
and focus on myself and my healing and recovery, rather than direct my energy at anger towards another person. That sounds incredibly. Was you ve the reference a few times you kind of
Made attempts to understand the condition that can lead somebody to become an abuse, or can you
Explain that what have you learned about? Why
in how men become abusers blanket response is they're all watching the same porn that glorifies violence against,
and we need more female feminist directors of porn to unpack bad porn, that celebrates mutual pleasure and stops glorifying violence,
going to when we are born patriarchal structures that perpetuate
violence as a norm. We see
add on so many levels in relationships in the workplace, in schools in government, violent words invite.
Acts and, of course, social media which allows for the proliferation of violent imagery
an vitriolic language. We have to make peace more exciting violence. I don't know how to do that quite yet, but I hope I bookshops. This goes to something you,
Your book? It's incredible education and an incredible story of intimate violence, but it's also
sort of an end s side all indictment in its about how violence.
Overall society is, in my article,
in that correctly. In your view, we ve seen over the past year because of the pandemic,
and the uprisings against racism, how ill with just living in an ill society, how we need to elevate voices of peace and love and comfort.
but the default has been to elevate the shiny objects. The quick bait
The sensational, and so we have a crisis of storytelling, does I believe that storytelling helped shape public discourse and help shape culture and helped shape, conditioning and help shape the way we behave with each other,
But you said that you really want men to read this book why's that, because I feel like one, the book will help them to it'll help them understand the impact that they have.
With violent behaviour and also to bring more allies into anti violence, because we can't approach a safer.
and less violent world. Unless.
Men and women are alike together in this fight
When I said I feel like we are in a war between feminists patriarchs. I believe that that is true, and I think the pandemic has provided and
winning sec. What our own that roy has written about the pandemic is a portal like we have an opportunity to really question the way our structures have evolved, that enslave us, rather than free us to be kind to each other.
and we ve, seen how there has been a kind of a descendants e of celebrity culture over the last year in an ascendancy of everyday euros, essential workers and first responders, I'm heartened by that, but we ve
so seen how the pandemic has negatively impacted communities of color and women and
Vice president Harris wrote. This opinion peace for the washington post, where she talked about how the
it is the women from the workforce is a national emergency that requires national solutions, and I think why I want men to read my book:
is so that they can understand that with them as part of the solution, we will get to this safer place because when women DR community strive it's better for our world,
You closed the book with a poem parliament. I want to read it you and get you to talk a little bit on the other side about why this poem speaks to you. The poem is from a book called when women were birds by terry tempest Williams,.
And she site a poet name: muriel rukeyser. Do I have right muriel rock yeah, so here's the better the poem
What would happen if one woman told the truth about her life? The world would split open wide. You choose that will regard for their by my telling my story and the stories of others. I hope that it opens up,
more storytelling, because by sharing our stories we d stigmatize our experiences.
And we can understand more how to craft solutions which need to happen in education.
from great school on up legislation, making sure that there are more repercussions for abusive behaviour, that the bar is not too high for abusive behaviour to be a crime
so at the governmental level that there are more resources provided to organizations that provide shelter, counseling and legal services to victims and survivors.
And especially mental health services and restorative justice programmes. So by closing with that palm, I'm saying let split the world open together as we close,
This conversation for people listening
need help or not
somebody who needs help. What are the resources you recommend? The book has a section said,
narrative draws people in, but then it is very important for me to provide the reader with resources for how to spot, stop and prevent intimate part or violence. So, there's like a checklist of the signs of intimate partner, violence and a checklist of thee effects.
Of abuse so that people can more clearly see it and understand it and to understand that abuse comes in many different forms, its not just physical, its emotional, its verbal, its legal, its digital, like cyber stock,
and also to understand that there are many many organizations you can reach out to for help and that, if you are the friend of
someone in an abusive relationship be their lifeline. Ask them questions that illicit answers and make sure,
They understand that they are not alone and then they're not crazy and
a list of organisations that are specific to different constituencies, because not everyone is comforting
reaching out to a national organization, there are ones for
indigenous communities for latin next communities for
Black communities, so it was very important for me to have different communities represented trans communities. The rates of domestic violence in trans community are staggering, and so that's my advice, you know read the book and checks
the resources at the end. Well, I have a lot of respect for what you're doing and guy they it's not only.
courageous, very generous, so thank you for doing it, thanks for coming on the show to talk about it. Thank you understand.
Thanks again to tanya, really appreciate.
We're coming on represents a
extreme level of of courage
debts and board story, and I agree with her that two men should read this book.
A shift years just a little bit before we go here to make a quick business announcement here,
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Actually there is one more thing I do want to mention before I let you go
This is women's history month and Amy see news has launched a new podcast called in plain sight, ladybird, johnson, fascinating
I worry about the former first lady and her role
the Johnson administration, highly recommend you go check this out. It's called in plain sight: ladybird johnson, will put a link in the
not this show is made by samuel Johns dj
a mere maria were tell and yet point
with audio engineering by ultra violet audio, as always a big shot out to my be news, friends, ryan Catherine Josh co hand.
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Transcript generated on 2023-09-11.