Got a bonus episode for you this week. It sir, my friend, Danny Gorman, you may know Miss Daniel Gomin. He wrote a huge book couple decades ago, huge book called emotional intelligence, which was really a paradigm shifting book. Bout not being yanked around by your emotions. I was informed in part by his many years as a science journalist, but also in part by his decades as a meditative I became friends of them several years ago. He's he's part of this group that sometimes is referred to as the Jew booze give folks mostly from the New York City area, who

and many them serve ivy leaguers, who all ended up for a variety of reasons, getting into meditation in the Sixtys and Seventys, some of them over in India, others of them back here at home. Many of these folks have been on this podcast before Mark Epstein share in Salzburg and the like and Danny is part of that group. It has been for years and it has been just super influential for me as a as as a writer and also as a friend, adjusted by way of example, not long after ten percent happier came out. He called me up much effort and said: hey good, for you glad the books doing well, but now you're getting people excited about meditation what're, you gonna actually do to help them meditate. Which was a risk. I didn't an in answer at the moment, but it s a buddy. It led ultimately to be getting involved in starting the ten percent happier app and and this podcast end. Objects at I'm now in this upcoming book there

working on the road trip we don't across the country anyway. Long way of there has been a huge and, I think, very positive influence on me and I think you'll be fascinated to hear his back story and soon the stuff he's working on so here again updating on four may. See. This is a ten percent. Have your podcast I'm down her thanks very much for doing this. I'm happy Let me ask you a question. I always ask which is how'd you get in this old meditation racket. It was those happy accidents. You know I didn't really plan on it. You never really plan on the best things that happened in your life ass. I was spending my first winter in graduate school writing a paper but suicide, hidden grudges.

And it s pretty depress me yeah yeah visit Harvard. Is it hard and is it a clinical psychology at first year and on Sundays and knock on my apartment door, and this beautiful woman is standing there and I was very happy to see her, but I had no idea who she was he said she had been in a monastery in Kathmandu and gotten. The message at her sister was getting married and she should come back to the states. So in Delhi she stayed in a rooming house where friend of mine was staying, who had been riding me as he went around the world and wasn't sure any of the letters were getting to me. So he gave her a letter to hand delivered to me because it turned out. She lived outside Boston, so here she is so this is a way before you mail, before I think that people who invented email won't even boy s, so the other was smoke cigarettes

This was ancient days ago, and then she said you know, I got to the states and I found myself backed out of the wedding. So I only have two things to do. One is deliver this letter to you and the others. I'm supposed to go see this guy who's up in New Hampshire. I couldn't remember what the name which determines I said, but why, I drive you their effects bring the alternative suicide papered? So happily she said yes, that made me more than Ten percent happier writing and we get up there and it's a biggest state and there. This guy in a room and one of the outer buildings who is sitting on the floor with his eyes, closed in the walls or papered with these gaudy posters turns out be hindu. Deities I've never seen anything like and here we come in and he doesn't say thing doesn't. Even look at us doesn't open his eyes, this woman sits down and does the same thing

I never been in a situation like this. I didn't know what the heck was going on, so I waited and waited and then finally, who opened eyes and started, and it turned out that he was Richard Albert and I knew Richard outward because He and Timothy Leary had both been fired from the very department I was enrolled in at Harvard and of course they were notorious is that he tune in turn on dropout duo who were making psychedelic very popular around the country they were fired, approximate cause for the firing was given, so into two in it in a study recently they, yes, those. Those who cause was that they had given psychedelic to undergraduates without approval of the universe, to gather the actual cause had to do with her, not giving psychedelic to an undergraduate who really want them really

that's another story so anyway, if we start talking and turns out, the Albert has now become wronged ass. He had just come back India, that was his hindu name wrong. I was given that name by his, I know: Yogi Name Name Crawley Bob. The reason he was sitting there with his eyes closed was he's doing something called meditation which had vaguely heard about, but I'd never seen in the wild there he was, and then we ended up talking about people we knew in common cause. I was in the same department he'd been frozen, as a member of a graduate student cloak him committee on the spot, I invited to come back to Harvard and gave a talk which he did a couple months later and maybe sooner than that continued because it was only the second talk had given after coming back from India and he was

We fired up. He started at seven a m and, I think finished it too. I had to bribe the janitor to keep the room, seven Emerson, pm Eastern seven, p m and finished it to any answer. This was the talk gave yeah flower just magnetize, because this guy was full of energy and really and saying these amazing things about alternate stay altered states of consciousness, or you know meditation, can change you and transform you if you do it for years and years like this yogi name Colleague Barbara, that he stay with him, and I was The impressed- and so I ended up going to summer camp that he ran in that same estate, which was his father's. His father had been president of what was in the New Haven railroad. We learn yoga. We learn meditation I ended up going to India and spend time with his teacher New Crawley Bob by that's how I got in

meditation I tried by the way TM in CALL Transnational meditate, which is dead, the guy my regime. I showed you started that became quite popular in those days because he was brief. The guru to the Beatles, and that made a very famous and so I tried that that was nice except just posted to a twenty minutes, twice and I was an underground as chronically sleep deprived. So every second meditation would be a nap me which has pleasant, but it wasn't really when I was expecting something more from invitation and so a candle at that dropped. But this is a really picked it up again with wrong Dawson going to India and in India I met people who were you'd have to say pretty hard core meditated like that was what their life was about, and I so experience them as some of the most upbeat wonderful people when energizing that I never run into, and then

I came back to Harvard to tell people this that you know there's something you're, something that you may not know about in your psychology. They were totally negative, really totally give me a sense of how negative they were outside. I told my clinical psychology instructor that I was going to do a dissertation on meditation and stress reactivity physiological study, and he said we start timeline. Then we got there. He gave a mantra. Sound sanskrit soundly repeat, silently in your mind, and he said: how is that any different in my obsessive patient? You can't stop saying shooting he was, he was confused. You know he's out of his two rats. He thought its tracks, but they don't have that diagnosis, then. So be it, but anyway, you ve just say that they were told dismissive another words in the

these days. The clinical psychology lens was very reductive. Psychedelic recalled Pritchett, psychotic medics, meaning they mimic psychosis and all of anything? Having do with the change? consciousness or managing your mind back then. Seen as some have Transgresseth and probably dangerous. So given that you were reared in this environment. Why? What about your background or personality allowed you to take all this stuff series? It, because I have seen that the though film of Rome does and that those weird a weird seen how We are well every dancing around their village full on, though we had a good time quote yea look at, but it was pretty weird Emmi, namely I'm not saying that an overriding negative way, but you probably saw films of sushi dancing, I've seen teaching yoga the yard I wore out his old documentary about him called fierce grace in that document, It is old.

I highly recommend a documentary to everybody and this old of him teaching yoga on the lawn at his daddy's estate and all that stuff and No, I'm just wondering, given that you are in a pretty straight laced environment at Harvard I'm getting your graduate degree in psychology. What why has this while those ok for you, I had a kind of weird Charles ok, so I was born in the central Valley of California, which is like the MID West of California, but my father's best friend, who we saw often was professor of asian languages

quickly, and he was a guy who's quite interesting. He in nineteen seventeen, if you could imagine, was a cadet in a military, school Vladivostok, Russia. His father was the head of the russian Army in that part of the country. The revolution breaks out and he's got a flea for his life and he ends up travelling through Asia and it turns out he's a savant. He picks up languages. He ended up speaking thirty language law, are more. He founded the Asian Language Department at Berkeley. Here, my father met in a sanskrit class. My father was a linguist and they became very close friends. They were in a room together, Berkeley and stuff. So I knew him in here the broad, a different sense of the world in with him like use it somehow very asian

and also my father made a point of bring me the experiences like meeting as any teacher in when I was in high school. This was in the early sixties actually may be late fifties him that you know it was just out of the ordinary firm. Permits for my sister gave me a book called the Zen mind Beginners my and real. Surely a solution. Also on that other really good one. I can see the cover two yellow cover and it was when the earliest books on Zan restores event in light enlightenment episodes. So if you know these were kind of background as formative experiences

me a sense that was there was more to understand the mine and I was learning a Harvard and clinical psychology and that the EAST Asia really had some wisdom about this. That was worth exploring now think that that plus the fact that I learned by accident that the Ford fellowship that sent me to Harvard head in it a year of travel and study abroad, and I had a wonderful professor there, David Mcclelland, who actually had hired and fired leering airport. It was chairman of the department at that point who kind of fronted form and he said: okay, this guy's gonna go to India and he's going to do some research and a heap he made it all. Ok, and so I had a free trip to India and

a region ago, as you ended up many a year, there are two years holding allow yeah I'd a poster, also brought me back in so how many different forms of meditation re studying what well you know. I wish I was opened to everything so Actually, I was trying to figure it out. My first book, which is now called meditative Mine battle, can I just go to brief plug has I've. I find this book fascinating and I know you wrote it you expressed to me some. She business about the values written at the early part of Europe. Rear, etc, etc. But it is a great and brief synthesis of the various pass to enlightenment in in contemplative traditions and for anyone who is interested in compare. These paths and and just look of learning what they are and seeing the commonalities, which are striking, especially given that these come out of cultures that disconnected in space and time is a fascinating. Thank you.

For that and I'm revising it and bringing it out fresh and updated in December a really going, because I feel that the book I'm just finished, which is called altered traits science, reveals how meditation transforms mine body and brain is going to revive interest in the other, I better up data, because it's very embarrassing. It's not embarrassing. If you found your friends, will I wrote a concise trying to figure out what is the difference between what sue fees do and Yogi Hindu? Please do and then visit all map on each other, and luckily I had a lot of time and Indian there's not much to do in those days. It was before, as you point out before the digitally

I spent a monsoon season in a village that had one bus come through once a day. It was an foothills of the Himalayas very remote. Whatever was available in the store was what ripened that weak or what they brought in on the the truck the came in every week in those very remote and done, I was able to pass through very fat book which I had some arise in meditative mine The city muggah is an ancient edge of this century text from editors, the worst about it is it was written before printing it was written, it's a text which is meant to be memorized, and so there is a huge amount of boring repetition had its very fat book, but I had nothing else to do so. I have read it by kerosene lamp in over the house,

I was in there was a cow downstairs. Phyllis around us and other people were there because Joseph teacher manoeuvre out will you should say who Joseph O Joseph Goldstein who, by the way, is done a wonderful meditation, APP Joseph Goldstein. I met person from Gaya India on December to November of nineteen. Seventy. He been there for five years, studying with a teacher there Manindra how to do to pause meditation, which is mindfulness, is it and so his teacher and a Greek of manoeuvre, whom I also study with four, while not five years, like Joseph, maybe three months anyway, he had said to a group of us who had gathered in both guy was hit by then included wronged ass in a second trip back India that he would meet us in this little tiny village in the humble

So we all went up to this little twenty village. He wrote a letter saying I'm so sorry, there's illness in my family. I can't come up at each other. We had the books we brought and that's how we started what became the meditative mind, but one of the books I brought was it's very fat meditators manual, the Bisutti Mug, which comes from the fifth century and it just entire path from getting your mind to stay with your breath in mindfulness, through all the states in places you go on the way to what they call Nirvana, which is a kind of enlightenment in that language any other way to pronounce that will be, Nirvana. That's the sanskrit format is more widely known in English. Again anyway, so here I am doing all of these weird things. No wonder my department thought I was

So I tell that whole story, and in this new book after traits which come out in September, you can get it now. I think, probably an Amazon, but I go into more detail on how that all happened, because it did was led me and my good friend Richard Davidson, whose Neuro scientist it erased was continent whose fell a graduate student to get really serious about this meditations Richie, as we call them, was the one guy back at Harvard who was opened. All Ricky by the way is a previous guess on his part cast a once and future gasket, I'm sure he'll come back on budgets, just you know you can go here from Richie if you scroll through their podcast feed. So do you has written a book together which will come on September? We wrote that put together. So do you- and this may be a question that I may want to ask you in more depth when you come back on to talk more fully about that book. The upcoming

Walter traits, which I have not yet read, but youth is enlightenment. Real is a thing will actually it's not a thing, but is it? Is it an actual phenomena? So the reason we call the book altered traits is that what the research shows verifies. The claims made say in this fifth century book: Vassili Munger, that is to say their a ongoing transformation of being which I will be happy to tell you about. Indeed, when the programmes, but in other words the short answer, is yes, yes, what women, solemn ass? Another question that is related to this, but I don't think we'll walk on the subject. Matters will want to cover when the book comes out. Maybe does so you can feel free to sweat it away, but what I thought so interesting, but the meditative mind the book that your first book is just seeing how these, as I said before these cultures, that aren't connect by chronology or geography

arrived at many of the same conclusions or experiences about. Transcending the ego or the voice in the head, etc, etc. How would you describe the commonality among those experiences, will first of all question your assumptions that they had no contact, there's a book that just came out. I saw it reviewed and it briefly in the new Yorker about the ancient world and how much contact there was. You know there was trade China to the Mediterranean, but I dont know that the shortcomings in the jungles of of Brazil had much count. Well so there to wait. I look at that. One is that the euro. Central nervous system and brain is designed the same around the world. Yes, and you can do certain things,

that can't do other things with it. Yes, and there are probably as a lot of spontaneous rediscovery, indifferent areas of different ways you can play with mine or game the mind or act. The mind are transformed mine. I think that's one answered the other answer. As you know, there were a buddhist monks and Alexandria, Egypt, Egypt, the desert, fathers who were the first christian monks and second century were in that same area and oddly enough, the methods they used like having beaded having beads fingering beads and doing a mantra with each bead is identical to what Tibetans yogi are doing or hinder. Yogi is doing today, and I don't think it's an accident. I think these

my own feeling is. There was a lot of contact and transmission of what we're state of the art technologies in those days. It's amazing, okay. So just bit getting back on your chronology, you spend a budget time in India. You meet all these other young westerners were into the stuff too. Who then go on to become a group that is and has referred to as the Jew booze you Ricky Davidson Joseph Goldstein, a younger guy Mark Epstein share in Salzburg, the list goes on. Did you, but you you, unlike many these other people, do not become a meditation teacher. So what How did you incorporated into your career, but he went on to write for long tunnels yeah, so I incorporated, into my life. I dont know that incorporated in my career, like you, I'm a dictator who does news, the Amazon's journalist training, that's my craft

What I did at the New York Times for twelve years until I rode emotion, intelligence and I could quit my day job, so the the reporting of science in a way that makes it accessible to the general reader who has no training, is like my one trick him one trip pony as well had. First, my books are pretty good trick of its it. It's a useful one and when I first left Harvard to go into journalism, people were scandal,

I see in academia. They thought it what a waste of good education after while they started coming saying you know, could you find about my respects apathetic awhile for them to understand that? Actually you got more attention there than you did an academic and academia, so for me, meditation has mostly been something that helps me with my day and with my life and doesn't necessarily in form what I write about her. However, right about patent forms, how I feel, as I write about I would say, and then I think that when I rode emotional intelligence

There was some deep structure that may have resonated with, as you point out, how some of the similarities among spiritual traditions around the world, because the union brain is one and the same so there for parts of motion, tangents self awareness, self management, empathy knowing how the people feel and handling relationships. So that is pretty universe. When approach intelligence came out, I was just really astonished at how it resonate with cultures around the world is in forty one language is how many millions of copies of this old, at least five, but I have I stop council, while it's a very popular book, and I think it is-

because it's a science book it's a book that tells you why you do those weird things that you do, that you wish you hadn't done right after you, he asked I'll do that. Yeah I do to get about. Innovation is not a carol. Reputation is not a cure This is something I wanted to bring up because I'm as someone who's looked deeply into the science meditation. I feel that mindfulness, for example, is over hyped predicting the business world and, having said that, I should also say that, my assistant doors, you're, happy that you did with Joseph o right you're. Sorry, I've asked yes, yes, thank you yet

just telling me to day be sure to tell them how much I like it. So I you know. I think that that's that's wonderful, that more people meditating. What I'd makes me nervous is how the meditation research is being misrepresented, particularly when you get into the business world and start selling the service of teaching people mindfulness to companies, because what you are doing is monetizing mindfulness in weight was never meant to be. I think mindfully should be spread everywhere. Every way it can, because its helpful to people and little research makes it abundantly clear, but it's not helpful in every way. For example, is it

a lot of action now around mindful leadership and I've. Emotional intelligence got me very involved in the research and on leadership and what makes people highly effective leaders or high performing and whatever they do. Mindfulness helps definitely, but it's not the whole deal and is being talked about, are sold as though all you need is mindfulness when in fact, I think mindfulness gives you US foundation helps you stay more calm, more focused, and if you do, I was called matter a loving kindness, meditation. It helps with empathy and pink

engineer the people, but it doesn't do the things that make you an outstanding later, it's not going to make you able to, for example, article eight, a shared vision that moves people and give people a sense of real purpose and meaning to what they do. That's a different skill and the skills of leadership that are very well documented, ah, are not the same as what mindfulness does so that's it here. I've been you got a few sheets and right here you really just. I just want to reduce the amateur my particular competencies. The research on leadership shows make a difference, before you do that the winking at least backup for one second, can you just you till you walk through the four parts of emotional intelligence? But can you give us the brief back story on how you came to the subject with the what, if you could condensed the thesis of the

and for us just for those of us while familiar with ok. So I went to very competitive schools after actually went to public high school in California and comparative law. But then I went to college as at the time was the hardest to get into in the country. I just very lucky it again. They thought oh will diversify in the sixties. That meant a kid from a farm town in California who did not go to prep school gotcha. That was me and then I went to Harvard and so so. I noticed that people there, even though there were in the top point or one per cent of as he t scores, whatever didn't necessarily succeed in life and in the corner and that people that I had known for itself.

My high school, who were so so. Students actually ended up being ceos, so what's going on here and then I realized that it's how they handled themselves at particular, how they match relationships that made them highly successful in their careers and I'm, but I'm a child of academics. Both my parents were professors and the the big heresy of emotion, intelligences, hey. You know what, when you're in school everybody talks about, you scores your iq,

oh, how your grades, your JP, hey, but once you get into your career, nobody cares it's. How well you do your job is. How will you function on attaining its? How well you perform as an individual and is of leader? That's different skill set. Nobody tells you. This is so that that was the personal insight and then, when I started looking at the data on the brain, which I did as science journalists at the times, I saw that what you know of the system that manages ourselves and our relationships is completely different, told them very enmeshed with the system that makes us good taking tests. They are not the same.

Ended because the circuitry differ so much. We have to respect that. There is a different way of being smart, then in ninety ninety, when I still the times a guy who is now the President Borrell Peter Salivate, who was then system, professor, something wrote, an article in a obscure journal called emotional intelligence. I saw that phrase it while that is terrific, because first of all sounds like an oxymoron. You dont think of intelligence and emotions, at least in those days in the same breath, but

I realize it's really saying you can be intelligent about emotion and then I use that framework to organise a book which was really about what the brain research tells us. What the competencies of being intelligent about emotions and relationships are, and then I was really arguing in the book for bringing the Syndic Elementary Education High school education k through twelve, which, by the way twenty years since then has become a very robust movement, social and emotional learn exactly what? How does one train in emotional intelligence? How do I boost may eat you, but mindfulness is good start because

So what is emotional intelligence? First, you said there for parts self awareness. Well, that's what mindfulness does it brings you into a focus on your self and in a very intimate way, and you start to notice these. The thoughts and feelings would just go, buy or take you over without being aware of that, so it cultivate self awareness, that's when the powers of mine from us another the next step, emotional intelligence is managing yourself self regulation and if you are not mindful, you can't do it right. If you don't see your inner torrent

Yeah you're going to be owned by it exactly, but then there are other parts of emotional intelligence. These are competencies based on self management that make people outstanding is high. Performers are as leaders that mines was doesn't help you much with one is striving toward goals. Even when you have setbacks might help, but not much it's it's. It's really a different skill set mentally having a positive outlook, interpreting things as opportunities, rather than defeats, that's a way of thinking. It's not mindfulness per se or just being adaptable. Having being able to get out of a fixed routine when this not working and try something new, that's a skill that make someone emotion, intelligent and a good leader but not necessarily developed by mind. Cities are cognitive rather than contemplative skill. Well, I wouldn't say that purely card there, both emotional and corn, together, not contemplative

Let me just Norton. Let me book pushy, I'm not sure, because I've found in my own experience of meditation has held me separate. Signal from noise so that when I have sat back- and I have more time- I'm a little less likely to go down the rabbit hole useless rumination unable to see more clearly the road ahead and the opportunities ahead, and similarly so that, with that as a result of truth, and then there was another piece you were talking about that somehow a goal which is even go yeah achieving calls the same thing that I. They're all these things I want and just having the injection of common perspective that my phone this gives. You helped me see what really matters So will not. Let me put back on the ok guy. Do need mindfulness to know to think about what really matters now exactly now, so I was knocking. The two at no, I know I know conflate them. I just think that their

additive era and supportive. I think so too. I think mindfulness helps pretty much the boy it's necessary, I don't think it sufficient. That's all I'm saying so terribly Apple S with a positive outlook is one of the very powerful ways they ve discovered of treating depression. Sears depression is mindful is based cognitive therapy, which Would you say that your wife is as done some when some work in that, if she was the first book, putting the other, mindless and confer be, which is called emotional alchemy, does to this day and wonderful book. But how can I say? That's my wife, of course, I have to say it's widely embraced as it

so wonderful images say if I confirm my terrorists as import turban ominously, so the interesting things that phrase mindfulness based cognitive therapy? What it means is mindfulness is the base. It helps. You see your thoughts and feelings and then cognitive therapy tells you you don't have to believe those thoughts and that's a very powerful intervention. But that's a cognitive intervention which is separate from mindfulness per se, put him together and you have something is very potent, but they separate. So there's your cognitive outlook and positive outlook is, is purely condom. Mindfulness may help you get there, but may not necessarily help you get there. There could be some whose very mindful and very depressed, and just mindful of lawyers, that a lousy feeling again right.

And noticing and noticing it. However, therapy tells him hey whenever that comes up. Think about don't think about look at what you telling yourself. I know but it will never change challenge those thoughts. I will have the cardinal back. It's not my fullest per se. So minded helps limp lit the element of when you back your sheets yesterday. Ok, so then another place, another ability of outstanding leaders is empathy and loving kindness. Actually that which is often paired with me. If this does help you with that, and that is a kind of meditation, were you systematically envision other beings and send them good vibes in his lot assigned to suggest that that that actually, As I know we, health benefits but behavioral exactly

but then there's another one, which is called organizational awareness, which is being able to read the map of the organization, know whose influential know who to go to make a decision, no, how to persuade them so that in that next meeting there. Speak up for you. That's not that you don't learn that in mind from us per se. You learn it in that social intelligence. Basically something else. I see that so so you're again but what I interrupted you and you are looking at the sheets in front of your concern. What we are concerned, if I recall, was somehow marvellous is being injected into the corporate world and old, as well as a panacea, but exactly leaves things out yeah. So I'm managing conflict, that's another ability of outstanding leader. Mindfulness may not help you they're very much because it so interpersonal. It can help you stay calm, but it isn't a silly. Help me with the getting to win win an end. Those of us who have any visibility into meditation communities around that this country and around the world will know, there's plenty account

in those organizations. The idea is exactly or teamwork. That's another play. I mean that has to do you learn that you know and play soccer is a kid not doing mindfulness on a cushion predict. All I'm saying is: there's a skill set and if your interested that skill set, I recommend going to more than sound, not net. Why

put all of this into and books and videos, and so on will tell us more about. What's there at more than talk. Is that that you, you and your son of really build this up as a place where people go for resources to learn about emotional intelligence exact? What else is there there's a couple of things that people might be interested in? One is a little book called the brain and emotional intelligence which goes into the brain level of what's happening as you manage yourself for you handle relationships skilfully. There's a book called what makes a leader which has all my articles from Harvard Business Review had been writing there for quite a while, and the article called what makes a leader, which I wrote. Ninety eight still one of their second most requested reprint loudest day,

I have to say between you and me, and people listening. They have all rights to that. They pay me hundred bucks for that. I think I'm down at share in a business school by outside, but any rate I put together all of the articles from the business review in this one makes leader said more than sound and also we're going in to primrose on each of these competencies. We have one on self awareness, self regulation. Positive outlook were doing one a month. I, if you, if anyone is interested in you know, but what is this? Why doesn't matter? how can I do it great your great over that's? What's there more than any other concerns as mindfulness you, ve watched you ve, had a front receives mindfulness has gone mainstream over the last couple of decades, lead in part by another member of this cabal, the aforementioned dead, you booze John Cabbage in a very close friend of yours, and does so do I

Meyer greatly in and have some personal connections with his well. Are you? How do you feel about? What's happened as a result of the snow? Will you help set in motion back in India and the sixties, while I'm thrilled of that it's happening, and I think that my quibbles are just at the edges got the movement. I think it's wonder you know it was a dream. There are two things I dreamed of happening in America when I was in India. One was that people would Betty and that this would not be a weird thing, but just matter of fact we do business, we do in its cool. We do it Do it every day, not a big deal, the other was it. You could get Chai somewhere both evolve, and I have come to be I'm just thrilled with that. China is more easily accessible and meditation- I maybe maybe starbucks- and the country such as child, who assume they haven't for meditation room and well,

you know, I perhaps yes, yes, do you don't think you have? You have some compile some unique. A little bit about you know my fulness for profit and having some worries about that in the business of mindfulness for profit at the app is that should zoning, I should take a hard look at I don't think so. I make it

thanks, enriching I in our book talk about people who are very serious about meditation. Who do it very deeply if you go to incite meditation society, for example, Joseph teaches he's a founding teach reassurance. Saltzburg are you can do you know ten day retreat or three month retreat and that's all just at cost, and if you want to give something the teachers, it's called dawn, it's a donation is cognate same work. It's not mandatory, so they're doing it in the way. It's traditionally done so there's! No, it's that's not monetize, but it's made available lets the weight it. I think deep practice should be you're doing something else, with your help and other people doing which is spreading it very widely, and I think that to spread widely, you need to use whatever means. Lady culture

technology society gives you and so there's digitization is inevitable, but it makes it much more widely available and I think you have to pay for that. You know you have to will cost money too to make it available examined on our, and we have to really investors, writers- and you know I bright books about I've written books about meditation but their books. People have to pay for the boy s. Yes, I want to give Peter readers a sense of your blog if you before we close but before we do that can give, since what your daily practice is like now. Well I already years, hence yeah sorry, I start with team that kind of faded away Then in India I picked up a mindfulness and was called in sight of a pastor meditation. And then I sigmoid from that to a tibetan form of past and which called Zog Chin and now that's the practice I do So what would you do in your mind when you're doing so can? Well, that's very private overlaying issue. Could oaks and people talk about the past and are readily but

Xo Jan is alone more than so generous, which called a non dual practices, which means that it is not at the level of thoughts it rather's, unlike the partner thoughts, are treated as arising to pass away the mind that you don't have to get sucked in by and it's like the pass. No, you create a kind of a platform and awareness where you couldn't that allows you with steadiness that lets other things come and go, and how much do do a day of this? Not enough depends on the day I like to do a lot. I wish our doing retreat, but I don't seem to be able at schedule at much I'll, buy I've known you for several years. I, during that time you I've seen you take, and your wife is well take some pretty long retreats last year, or so it's not much as it is you're working on all these books

many reasons. Whatever the reasons, I think that it also says I dont prioritize retreat enough while jazz it's on my case about that is our right. Yeah as we speak right Joseph has a very high bar he's, a guy who does his own retreats every year. For I know a couple months, three months, Erymanthus come out of a three months uneasy so, We, the books, that I've read by you that I can easily talk about our meditative mind as we discussed. Also emotional intelligence ended.

The book wrote in the recent years called focus which really talks about what the title suggests. How we stay focused what water, whereas some some other books that interested listeners might check out. Well. Ah, there's a book called social Intelligence, which explains how the the brain operates in relationships is a book called ecological intelligence which is about the environment and why we are so bad about our impacts on the environment. What can be done about that? There's the book just about to be published. In September, which is altered traits which pulled together all of Lee Meditation research- that's been done so far with with rigid Davidson, and I actually left out one book that I have read that the title of which is of aiding me. But it's about the Dalai Lama of Force for good,

which I wrote for the Dalai Lama's 80th birthday, which is his vision of how people can use mine from this and other methods to manage themselves better, so they're, common, clear adopted ethic of compassion and caring and concern and then act he's really a social activist. I was pretty surprised to see that, but it's it's his program for what he would love to see. People do with her Ice has round meaning purpose and making a difference in then I've done. A lot of work on education is, as you suggested. I did a book that more than sound has with Peter Sanjay, who is an expert on systems, learning systems, thinking saying that, in addition to social, emotional learning, which we should talk about, someday down, look like I told you to do in our social model. Is yours, social?

Snow learning takes emotional intelligence. This for components of awareness, management, empathy, social skill and embeds it in the curriculum for kids, came through twelve in a way that it doesn't take that much time, but it helps them learn. You know the EL well, let me put chiefly there's a line of development that every child goes through, which is emotional, and this has to do with how the brain develops and another line, which is social, which also has to do with the other brain develops and how they manifest in relationships are how the kid handles himself or herself and right now. We leave that loomed chance, and I think we do so. You know it in a way that puts us at risk

I have a two year old what'll. I do about this because I take it seriously right, relax, you're doing fine, I don't know you should see a list of all stop open in his pants and much less so pay no attention to less norms. Every child is different, but but I take very seriously. The idea of my biased goal for him is to be a good guy right and You are the your child's coach. Every parent is childs coach and mentor

in every little interaction, your teaching, something about how to be a human being. So you're doing it actually called good enough parenting. So, if you're, if, if you create, would call to secure base for your child's where he knows that you care about him that you tune in to him, you ve noticed, what's going on in him, that your protect him that he can trust you that creates a core of security that you

China will bring into every relationship through life, so just by being a good enough parent you're, already helping your child become emotionally intelligent. But when I saw is that, in order a lot of kids in this country, the growth in very dysfunctional situations- and they don't have that sense of security or are they don't learn how to manage their anger because they of parents who blow up beat them whatever it may be and its it was. For that reason, I thought they should be in schools so that every child has not shown you to learn. How to note your feeling how to manage your disruptive feelings, how to turn into other kids feelings.

We get along how to collaborate out, cooperate there, there, basics for life, and there also. This is really interesting. If you reverse engineer those competencies that we found make outstanding leaders if it goes back to learning these things in childhood and in fact, when they ve done. Studies with outside Leaders about how did you learn to be so good at leading a team? They go back to my own middle school. This happened to me. I had this experience, so it starts in childhood and you know a healthy family will help a child get the right foundation, but it doesn't hurt to be sure every child gets the right lessons at the right point developmentally through life as a social justice issue. There is no question about it. Yes, but I say this as somebody who's completely by because you're, my friend, but just talk to you about the scope of your work. I hope you're able to appreciate it times the amount of impact you've had not only in the corporate cultures

education, young lives, and also just by dint of that curiosity that sent you'd over India and got u mobbed up with these other. Folks who got interested meditation way before it was cool and at that has allowed for somebody like me. Who would never of otherwise approach this stuff. If I didn't see smart scientifically minded, before into it and modeling it as a as a behaviour that I want to emulate I just a major impact. I just want to make that point well down this very of you sincerely said and end up dead We're coming on em an age when a letter Reno you'll be back in the not too distant future. To talk about this new book which come in on September, absolutely I promised love it. Then it my friend Ok, there's another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe rate us, and If you want to suggest topics, we should cover a guess. We should bring

hit me up on Twitter at Dan be Harris. I also want to thank heartily the people who produce with Pakistan really do very much out of work. Efron Jacko hand. Sarah AMOS Andrew Kelp, Steve Jones and the head of ABC use Digital Dan Silver, attacking excellency there's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way. The corona virus pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who are sitting up every day. This is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our time in these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going

from damaged and even worse, I. She went back to my office inside crying because it's not fair hearing here, making sorry that our community smiled faintly moraine. This is essentially inside the from the urgency by the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves. No one's way, there's always a risk that I could breathe is home to my kids. Are my husband or my parents? Listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast revision, podcast him.