The ten percent happier podcast dan Harris hello, everybody quick andrew before we dive in we've got our first live podcast coming up on september, seventh, twenty twenty three at the armory in Boston, we're going to have a very special guests and when I say very special, I truly mean and this is going to be awesome- it's a very small venue. So if you want tickets, go to the link in the show notes, double quick. If this experiment works, we may start doing if shows around the country in the world, so excited see how this place out? Let's talk about today's episode, though I may have made this observation before on the show It may not even be an original observation. However, it is my view that one of life's most fascinating and thorny paradoxes-

Is that one the one hand we need other people in order to be happy? On the other hand, other people can be a gigantic. pain in the ass. As the french existentialist writer John Paul Sartre once said, hell is other people, and yet we know from science that perhaps on a much deeper level, hell is loneliness which can really degrade us both psychologically and physiologically, which leaves us with a tricky task. If we want to take our happiness seriously we need to cultivate good relationships while being aware that this shit ain't, easy all of which brings me to today's guest, who has become an expert in toxic people or as she calls them emotionally immature people. We've had the clinic psychologists, lindsey gibson on the show once before that was last year, twenty twenty two- and it was one of the best performing episodes of the year so without we'd, have her back because she's out with a new book called dis entangling from emotionally image

people, it's the fourth in her ongoing series on this topic. In this conversation, we start with a run through the basics on the cardinal characteristics of emotionally immature people are. yeah, I peas, how to spot them and why you might want to. Then we turn to what doktor gibson means by this tackling from ie I peas and how to which, by the way, disentangled, does not necessarily mean estrangement. What often happens your own sense of self, when you're in relationship or even then a conversation with any ip how to best interact with any ip specifically. However, brain scramble when you're talking with somebody who isn't making any attempt to understand what you're saying how she linsey reacts went comes across the ipcc in her everyday life, whether it's possible to have a mature characteristic without being any ip hand in your own emotionally immature tendencies, weather

yeah? I've he's can change the limits of a strange rent and why she encourages alternatives to forgiveness. One quick audio note here: you may here a few straight, background noise is on wednesday, then that's the nature of remote recording before we get started with today's episode. Let's talk about summer even in the sunshine or on vacation. Many of us struggled to enjoy me time or even worse. We struggled estate present during last time with friends and loved. to learn how to actually unwise this summer check out the relaxing restore meditation pack in the ten percent happier app meditation can help you. Come more mindful and relax, no matter what you're doing whether you're killing out on the beach catching up on your favorite Joe or having a deep conversation download the ten percent Europe today, wherever you get your apps and get started with a free trial, now on with the show audible, let's

enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app do always find the best of what you love or something new to discover as an audible member, you can choose one title a month He turned the entire catalogue, including the latest best selling, And new releases with audible app, you can listen, time anywhere wild traveling working out during chores, you decide, I judge, downloaded the memoir crying in each marked by Michel zeiner ivory. Regularly love hearing authors read their own work, new members, try audible, free for thirty days, visit, audible, duck. I slashed ten per cent or text, ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten per cent or text, ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dot, com, slash ten percent.

The dell technologies black friday in July event has arrived with limited quantity deals on top tat to power. Any passion save on select expiation He sees and more powered by the latest intel poor processors plus get savings on select monitors and accessories. Free shipping and monthly payment options with del preferred account safe today, by calling a seven seven ask Del. That's eight seven, seven ask del offered to u s residence by web bank who determines qualifications for in terms of credit. Lindsey gibson welcome back to the show it's great to be back Dan thanks for having me it's a pleasure. We talked about this. The last time you were on, but for people who didn't hear that episode or haven't had time to go back and listen to it. Can you

give us the basic definition of emotionally immature people. Sure emotional image surety is a line of development, just like. Will develop in their intellect they develop in there social skills they develop physically. These are all lines of development that most of us are pretty adapted, noticing weather. person has developed normally in those areas. Emotional maturity is its own separate line of development, and so you can have a person who could be intellectually, very bright, very accomplished, or they could be super socially skill. Them is popular person in their group, but that doesn't mean anything hang about their level of emotional maturity. Emotion, maturity, really is seen when the person is under stress.

or if there are any emotionally intimate relationship. Those are the two places that emotional Charity shows itself so there are a lot of areas in life that people show up in. The don't have to do with emotional intimacy and they don't have to do in a with stress that they just normal day. functioning and these people look perfectly normal, but when they go home and they are faced with relation ship issues or stresses that, may not show and other situations. Then the people who living with them. really get to see the emotional immaturity and they really bear the brunt of it in a way Other people might say why your mom, she so sweet, you so cute or could be because, when you such a great guy, what are you talking about is because it's not

went to show up until these particular conditions, are there If we want just do a quick run through of the card risks of emotional and majority, the first one is that they tend to be very egocentric these are people who are self preoccupied. there are always thinking of. What's in it for them. How is it going to affect them, and they really don't have Much appreciation that other people are site. Logically, real on the inside their more alike, characters and apply that the person is in. They have poor empathy, it's hard for them to feel what other people are feeling, so they don't have great imagination when it comes to putting themselves in someone else's shoes and they don't

underlies what other people are. Probably thinking about. They also have very poor off reflection? So if they have a problem in a relation, shep or in our problem were there, not winter ass themselves, gee you know, did I do something to cause that was there's something as I was saying that was making this person uncomfortable, that would not occur to them because they externalize and project blame. For most things that go wrong in their lives. This makes it very hard for them to change to, because the people that come to cycle there They usually are the ones who are asking themselves those questions and they do have the potential for tat information, because their showings curiosity about how their share

up in the world and the effects that their causing, but not the emotionally immature person you're, very afraid of emotional intimacy like when you try to get close to them or open up to them or get them to talk. Themselves, genuine deeper level. They are likely to back up and become very unkind. If the ball brush it off change the subject maker quip they just don't like to be down, in that kind of emotionally intimate deep kind of interaction which is tragic when it's their child, because that's what this need is someone who can go down and their feelings with them. then. Finally, they do this thing where

They interpret reality according to how they feel so if it feels like something is happening like against them then that's fact and their mind if they feel like you dont, like them or your criticising them. Even if that's not your and tat is not what you said, they use their feelings just like children do to tell them what the sir reality is now. This is like really immature waited to hive, because you can't guide yourself effective way through adult life on the basis of what things feel like to you. May we can use our intuition and waken use our feelings, but we need to have an external objective ability to

You interpret reality based on something other than our own eco centralism, and they also tend to adjust. Reality said that it doesn't upset them, so they will deny things. Dismay things distort things I never happened. I never said that. What are you talk about because it don't want to deal with that. They will just not deal with it. So those are some of the cardinal characteristics of emotional immature I remember the last time you were on. You were talking about some of the cardinal characteristics and my question Well, I I see a lot of myself and we are going to talk about it later in this discussion. and what to do when you're noticing emotional them turkey in your own mind, but let you stay with other people for a second, you said,

the interesting about how emotional immaturity shows up in one or two places generally one would be under stress. The other would be an emotional intimate relationships and am remit. really what I thought was a very wise thing that a friend of mine said to me like twenty years ago. I said this cliche thing about how, when people are understood ass, you really get to see the real them and my first and who went on to become a psychiatrist who was not medical trained at this point, said so, there's always stuck with me, which was that actually, no, I think what people are in distress that is really not who they are. It's you know the amygdala, the distress part of the brain is activated and and its who they most of the time, that's the real measure. So what do you think of that yeah? I think your friend is right. I mean I would hate have somebody judge my emotional maturity. on how I act when I'm super stressed, but it's more like you can think about,

it as when your stress, you're, gonna, use certain coping As I was just you know, that's what we all do. We have our defences. We have our coping mechanisms. the person who is relatively emotionally mature, even when their stress there still to be aware of the effect on other people They're still gonna be aware of the realities that unity, maybe upset they may be. You know out of their mind with anxiety or worry, but some of these foundational things you're still gonna have the feeling that they are in touch with reality, even though realities I'm suffer but there's still in touch with reality, and you can still relate to them. Ok, with the emotionally immature person is likely to be much more blackened. Why much more of a rigid response, much more? Judging

blaming deny all distortion insisting. So that is what if you're really looking forward during the episode of stress is what is the quality of it? Are you still able to reach them? Person knows, there's somebody still in their or are you dealing with a bunch of reactive defence mechanisms. That's all about trying to make them feel better and then, as the stress goes down, does the person come back and a while, I'm sorry, I was so off the wall. With that, I was just really scared. I didn't know what I was gonna do but yeah sorry I

act. Your ear off. You need to have some awareness that they were quite themselves, whereas an emotionally immature person, they won't come back and do that kind of self reflection, that's not what their focusing on is, how they have affected other people. Does that help yet does ok? How do we? spot betty ip and what's the benefit of spotting them. In other words, what's the benefit of making this amateur remote diagnosis of somebody else's phenotype so yet to park question? How do we spot them and why they can be there hard to spot, because a lot of them, especially if they have narcissistic components to their personality and by the way I look at it is that all narcissistic personality disorders are emotionally immature, but certain not all emotionally mature people

we're narcissistic, so it's kind of like a sub category, but they are very hard to spot because, like assent, there social skills, their intelligence, all that is fine and you may be really drawn in and really relate very well to them for a long time, you know, like, let's say, you're, doing something: business with them or let's say you start to date. Thumb things can go well long time and hum reminded of this site, Herbie classically who worked with psychopath, as whose certainly emotionally mature, and he said that he could always tell a psychopath, because that was the person he lent money too. So are we if you know about emotional, immaturity, you're, going to respond to charm you're, going to respond to attention you're going to respond to social

charming and facility, I mean we all respond to that stuff, but over time, as you get to know the person You gonna find out a lot more about how they cope with life and how they treat other people at the beginning of the relationship They feel like the only person on earth in their eyes, but as time There is on you see how they handle disagreements you'll see how they handle it when things don't go there way and you'll see what they do when it looks like they're not going to get everything that they want. That's kind. Where the robber meets the road, and you start to see. You know some of these things be directed backing

you are in a very unpleasant way or maybe you'll get the cold shoulder, but it won't be that they will come toward you and try to work it out with you. What they'll do instead is express their displeasure and hope that you get the message that you need to shape up and be the way that they want you to. So I think it crucial that we be aware of emotional and maturity and look out for it, because what happens We go ahead and marry that person or we go ahead and make that business deals contract with somebody who's not able to do some of the basics of working out problems with other people. I mean that's, that's a tough couple situation to get yourself into. So yes, though, why is because it's going to be a hard road with that person. If you have to

you negotiate or work things out with them when things get tough and its much easier to spend the time up to get to know them better in the kind of suss out whether, They do handle things and emotionally mature ways. It's much more. Economical to spend the time up fraud than their pay later. How do you know you're right and most of us are not clinicians. So how do we know for right in our diagnosis loan to me, You know it's going off those hallmark characteristics every one of those spells trouble for, a long term relationship I mean if you dont have empathy or you are not comfortable with intimacy or you can't self reflect, for instance, you're not gonna, be a very good partner in any kind, relationship. It's gonna be hard,

on the other person, you dont have to be a clinician to know that when somebody gives you the cold, shoulder spy, currently to you in a way that makes you feel very small, refuses to talk with you about problems, because they just like it? They just don't see why they should any normal human being is going to have a reaction to that, because the interpersonal quality relationship with an mostly image or person is- sooner or later, you're gonna end up emotionally taking care of them, putting them first and kind of agreeing. That there, the most important person in the relationship and that gets tiring but you'll be able tell that people do early in relationships, it's there

They haven't known what to call that. So they might have those experiences and then choose get up to here. tired or they now was a very sensitive. to her or in other make excuses for it. That's why they are so important for to know about emotional and maturity, because some of these things can be I've long patterns that maybe you don't want to get involved with your book is about. The new book is about disentangled from the ip is, and I want to talk at great length about that because sometimes Doesnt dangling is not really an option nor or its more difficult. If it's like your boss or your parent, then you know a prospective romantic partner business partner. Any I do want to get to that, but before we get into that love to talk a little bit more about your ip is generally admitted throw a bunch of questions at you in you. You can pick whichever one is interesting to you

I'm just curious like how common do think this is as a percentage of the population and how does any ip get me Why are they this way, yeah more is said about the quality of the inner personal relationship is going to have a particular tone to it. Like you, going to end up being the one who feels responsible for Most choice stabilizing the emotionally immature person they kind of give you the job. Of making them feel better or calming them down, and they also give you the job of making sure that their self esteem stays good. So those too who interactions are very central to end kind of emotionally mature relationship system, you're going to find yourself put in the past,

edition of being kind of an emotional caretaker or or the person who beefs up their self esteem and that's why said, is very tiring, because it's an energy drain to be that alert to another person's inner stay, So you know when you hear terms like energy, empire or you note how draining someone is that's because are not able to really modulate their own emotions and soothed themselves, and they turn to you to help them regulate their own emotions. Now, that's exactly what little kids do and we expect them to do that. That's normal and healthy, because they cannot regulate their internal stay there need to be able to come to an adult and have

adult understand with empathy what's going on inside that child and then spawn in ways that suits them, help them learn. calm down and that's normal development. The child gets theirself steam internalized through many interactions with their parent, where the parent laws that child and adores that child and that little child is just the cutest little thing ever and the child feels I did in and they internalize that self esteem offer emotionally immature people were probably happens. is that there is some difficulty that occurs in the attachment process or in the Basic quality of relationship with their parents? Are their caretakers something

happens where they are not able to trust and complete. That process of internal seeing their own comfort, and their own ability to regulate their reactions in response this distress, it may be that they experience trauma. Trawler just stops development in certain areas that might happen. There might be external things that break apart the parents ability to be there for the child through no fault of the child or the parrot in our like natural disasters or illnesses, things like that. But the problem is that that child's developmental needs therein sure needs, don't go away because there's been a natural disaster, they continue and when the parrot. b to too overwhelmed to respond.

The child, the child's not getting something needed to continue their psychological grow their emotional development. So that's how it may happen I dont know that there are are any studies about emotional charity and how it develops yet, but we we have a lot of information from attachment studies that, when the child is not in a securely attached relationship, early in life. They don't pick up a lot of these things there We assume a normal person to have liked the empathy and the ability to think of other people and then for the. How common is it? I think you can

read the news I watched the the worldly referred to me up, I mean I mean it's all over the place. People behaving badly tape, well, who react to stress by starting wars, you know, personally, I think you know I have to do is read the newspaper and realise how widespread, emotional immaturity really is because you can see the eager centralism even see the refusal to self reflect you can see the lack of empathy that distortion that denial, I think, is probably very common- I have no idea of the percentage I just suspected higher than we want it to be I've, a million other questions about your vips generally, including whether they can never change but come back to that because I do want to get to the tactical nation and guidance for those of us who have

peace in our life. Men want to disentangle again entangling is in the title of your book. What do you mean by that? What is disentanglement? Look like yeah. We know it describing how emotionally immature people set up their relationships? I called them Surely a mature relationship system, meaning that they're looking for you to help a most We stabilize them and build up their self esteem, and there are also look to be the most important person in that relationship. That's what they're all about so that system needs to untangle. You, in it, for you to be constantly available to them in a way that makes them feel good, ok makes them feel calm makes them feel sick

the list, so we get entangled because we end up finding ourselves paul old into our role, kind of psychological, a logical, caretaking that we never anticipated. We never signed up for an yet we're deep into it. We were dealing with their reactions were helping them to feel better we're dealing with their anger there, a lot of things going on that tend to pull people in to a relationship that ends up feeling like your time golden it doesn't feel like you're free to be yourselves. It doesn't feel like you're important too. just as important is down. It feels like they're, the ones Who are consuming all the resources in the relationship and also because a mostly mature people don't have a great sense of self? They tend to do this

That has been called in management, meaning that they draw, other people into their sense of identity. So let's say that a woman marries a man who then becomes part of her identity, as successful or a socially well respected woman, but he becomes in this example. Kind of an eye jack in her life. That is, for the purpose of her own identity or less science a mother who insists on telling her grown child what to do how to of their lives and that in management means that the boundaries are not good the boundaries that should be there between two individual adults are not being respected and that other person,

is seen merely as an extension of the emotionally immature person and that kind of bonds is someone who is saying you as certain over an extension of themselves. I mean that feels awful and people. want to at some point in that they begin to want, get away. They begin to have to distance themselves from that person, but what I'm trying to do in the book is not just how do you distance, herself from a person like back ass, most people figure that out, but if you have to be in relationship with them or you want. Be in relationship with them. How do you oh about psychologically, entangling yourself from down. How do you find yourself after you, ve gotten, tangled up in being,

hu. The emotionally immature person thanks you oughta, be so different. Going doesn't necessarily mean cutting off. All ties can mean just having some inner boundaries. Yes, exactly that's a really good way of saying at its inner boundaries. It's a sense of self possession, a sense that I know where I begin and and I know where you start- and I can tell the difference between what I won- what you want and I'm not going to be manipulated into losing that distinction. Hmm. So what does that look like? So if you've got a boss or a spouse, a sibling, a friend or a pair of twos, gotten an instrumental view of you who were there and mashed in a way that You just become an extension of their ego. How would you manage that

add on an ongoing basis. If you didn't want to cut them out of your life yeah. Well, the fact is that as long as you're unconscious of the process, as long as you're unconscious are unaware of what is happening. Between you like what the dynamic is, that you're being kind maneuvered into this particular raul or your basement. Over it and the following. These expectations are out you're a bad person if you're not aware of that, you probably org and get maneuvered into that because there so good at intervals. maybe they ve gotten really good at getting other people to take care of them and Oh, if you don't have that awareness of the dynamic You're gonna, move into that relationship and be kind of taken over by them so for me, it seems crucial that people be

aware of what emotional immaturity looks like and what its motives are its motive is not to make your life miserable or to harm you or anything like that. The mode of the emotionally mature relationship system? Is, I can't do it on my own I'm image shore, I dont, have a strong sense of self. I cant figure world at very well and their needs. Somebody to run appearance remained its somebody to take care of me. They're, not bad people at all, but they're scared people, and their inadequate in many respects. and so you know, if you have an iota of empathy, you probably going to sense that about them and they can pull you into a relationship where you know you ve really and applying them, get away with too much and use

your boundaries too late, and these are things that can be avoided. if we are aware of some of these, of emotional immaturity, the first step in not getting and mashed is to begin to ask yourself whether or not this person seems to be able to take my needs into account as well as theirs. Can they and all problems can the hand the frustrations. What happens if we have a difference of opinion? what happens if I need their help, do they? spawned. Are they always busy. I mean: what's the quality, the relationship and when sir or later you begin to feel taken advantage of or begins to feel, like it's kind of outweighed on their side about whose getting

the most attention and benefit from the relationship, and that starts to happen. That's when you need to who become very observant and very objective about what going on in the relationship by that I mean that you begin to observe how you're behaving, what they're doing and you can have never read it to yourself. So you get increases your objectivity and your perspective said that you're not pulled, and to this end angled relationship where you're just reacting emotionally, for mostly immature people, is a dream. Come true. When you go in and you are reacting emotionally to them, because their so effective at using to get what they want So when you pull back and become object an observation. All you are

freeing yourself from that emotionally mature relationship system and you're, giving yourself an opportunity to really be yourself in that person's presents, instead of just the reflection of what they want to say, so that being yourself is so crucially important for therapy pay, since people I've worked with who have people in their lives like this. That's the number one thing we have to do is just to get them to pay attention to what they want, how they feel what they think is right, because get so muddled up with being consumed what the emotionally immature person wants remained one. That system is working, that's where your thoughts go is.

yeah, but what about damn? What what's going to happen to him? What's going to happen to her? It's like remember, to take care of yourself first and to make sure that you set boundaries that give you the space to be in touch with yourself, like that. Coming up, lindsay c gibson talks about what often your own sense of self, when you're in relationship or even just a conversation with an ye ip how to interact with the ip more effect really how she reacts when she comes across anti ip and nature, whether or not yet peace can age and the limits of estrangement, the show a sponsored by better health. Sometimes in life we are faced with tough choices in the path forward is not always clear I've. I hid crossroads, all that I personally and professionally and my own life, and I find that the ashes

the various issues with my therapist can be massively helpful at me. I talk about when my friends, my wife and my family members, but having a therapist to train and that this with some warm but professional dis Hence it is really helpful for me to see where I'm getting caught in my ancient storylines and resentments, rather than seeing things clearly. So I find that making decisions is smoother process. When I do it, in conjunction with my therapist end, there be real can be helpful for you too, to identify next steps and figure out where you want to go if you're thinking about starting therapy give better help, try just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge

let there be be your map, with better health visit, better health dot com, slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help. H e l, p, dot com, slash happier. Andy's list is now angie and we have heard a lot of berries about why I thought it was an eagle feel worse. This paper apple, it was so you could see it faster, no were to be more. I click must be as acting by those are quite right. It's because now you can compare out from prices book a service instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish the nomes easy, and it makes us so much more than just a west get started at Angie dotcom, that's angie! I or download the apt to day a big theme in the book. Your new book is often too,

how, if you were raised by any ip or your and our relationship at deeply enmeshed relationship with any ip you can. These are Your words here you can trade authenticity for approval cannot lose your sense of self because you ve got this interpersonal mind virus going on here? And I m here you correctly when the rubber the road in your inane interact and with any ip. You really need mindfulness self awareness to see. Ok am I being version wants me to be right now or a being who I am, and that seems tricky in and of itself, because possible that you ve actually never export that question of who you are what you want. Yeah, that's somethin. I mean that is really what it comes down to it, because if you have been raised by emotionally immature parents yourself, you ve, been trained to put yourself at the very back of the line you ve been trained to.

about how what you do is going to affect the people and Pham way, you ve been trained to think about powers, mom and dad gonna feel about this, how do I keep them com so yeah? Absolutely you can come to an adult relationship with an emotionally immature person and if you ve been raised with them You are automatically like you said dan you're automatically going to put them first, it's going to feel natural, it's going to feel normal to do that and then you're going to lose touch with what is actually going on inside yourself. So when you brought up that the mindfulness exactly it's like you forget to even experience your own presents. It's not something that you ve ever been trained to do. If you are right is by under mostly mature apparent, and it's so important it did you do it

talk about this in my own life, I don't think I was raised by e ips. I am, maybe I'm not seeing my parents clearly, but I think they were quite mature and pretty great parents, but I I believe there are people in my life, including some bosses, time, and particularly charismatic colleagues- and clearly not a few family members who fit the description, and when I interpret back to those interactions, I really sadly love the word authenticity. I love the concept, but the word sometimes it can be so vague or clean that I lose a foothold in. the true meaning of it, and yet can really see that there are two when I'm dealing with any ip that I do lose my authenticity I'm playing into. their hands because I'm so eager to like not be the bad guy exactly exactly, and they are very adapt

at giving you a sense of moral obligation to do that. It's not just take of me and made me feel good about myself. It is you, have a moral obligation to put me first and take care of me because that's what good sounds? Good husbands, good friends do and then you get kind of emotionally coerced into feeling bad because it generates guilt or shame self doubt, and what does a self reflective person do when they have self doubt they start looking? information outside of EM cells to kind of get a red on the situation, because maybe they're wrong. You know, but that is like you say that is like playing right into the maneuvers that mostly mature people do to keep themselves feelings

even in control. Actually don't like the word manipulate, because I dont think they're doing at consciously I don't think they're doing it to harm any body. I don't think they're trying to make people's lives miserable. I think these are all defensive maneuvers to keep them from feeling inadequate or afraid, aid or something really really awful. I think they're trying to stay away from some interferes in in securities that they really don't want to get in touch with their not trying to do that at your expenses? Just like a person, going under for the last times, not trying the drowned the person whose rescuing them it's just. They need someone to stand on top of to get a breath of air. I appreciate that perspective. Do

ever get perversely excited when you meet in ye ip out and nature. You know at a barbecue or whatever, because it gets you d like to gives you an opportunity to just study them in the wild. Actually, I I have to confess that I do if a little excitement encounter them in the watchful just because I know what I'm looking for now. You know Then let me also hasten to add that I also get excited when I run into emotionally mature people, because I can tell they are too, you know they're the ones who listen They are the ones who remember what you said in a two minutes ago who try to integrate what you told them into something else that they're asking you about. You feel com in their presence. You feel safe in their presence, so I get excited by both of them. This

it's not the analyzing down the fund is not getting pulled, to something where in the past you know, maybe I would have lost myself or lost my perspective with this person yeah. I can imagine it's like testing your skills in real time, yeah, exactly exactly you talked about emotionally mature people and how you each fund to run into them and you're nervous system senses it. You feel safe com heard understood brief tangent. I recently read somewhere. I think it was on. This is excellent news. Litter called the margin, alien and either the author or somebody she was quoting talked about, how understanding is actually just another name for love, which I actually find out an interesting concept: air, Anyway, you talked about how, when you're with an emotionally mature person you'd feel like they kind of get you there clicked in there listening they're switched on, and I dunno, if I'll be able to articulate this

Put me in mind of a kind of definitional question about emotionally immature people, because you spent at a time in this interview dwelling on this concept of emotional and measurement, they feel like their drowning. They feel unsafe, so they co opt other p all, as life rafts in a hostile world, didn't get the support they needed, perhaps as it kid and so they're, just constantly lodging onto it now and yet, when you listed the many hallmarks of emotional immaturity. There are other aspects to it like interpreting everything. Through the lens of the self b totally self centered believe you do right all the time. I think you mentioned that, but maybe didn't today at least are located mentioned it. So I I know, a lot of people who have those characteristics, perhaps even myself in spades then maybe they don't have the whole and measurement thing at least clearly, and so I'm just wondering, would they not qualify for we as emotionally mature what I look for.

It is kind of the opposite of those all mark characteristics. In other words, let such get that if we are nervous set for going through an emergency our ocean? All maturity will probably plummet. Nobody is. at their most empathic non egocentric best when they're really sec or things are like going wrong. So regression absolutely it can happen to all of us. I will certainly don't count myself out of because I know how I've been one. I've been in some rough situations, the site. You are now error best self you're, not thinking about other people. In the same way you would, when all your needs are being taken care of so we have to keep that in mind, but you know a person can show egocentric qualities they can have,

or empathy. At times they may not be great itself reflection. They may get uncomfortable when things get to emotionally and you have always characteristics. But if you have the ability to be otherwise other times to me? That's a person who does have adequate emotional maturity, because at times they are capable of true empathy now just doing it to get what they want. They really can't help but feel what somebody else feels they really do. Take other people into account. You know, like maybe They wouldn't do something because it just wouldn't be right to the other people. They don't know these people, but they just don't think it's fair that they do this because they have that sense of other people are just as

real, as I am you know, they may shy away from emotional intimacy at times, but when it comes right down to it with their good friend or their made or whoever child. They can be right there. They can be fully present in the moment they can. Tolerate it. Well, they can available for other people, said the way look at it is. You can maybe grow up in circumstances that each you a lot of emotionally immature qualities- that you may show as a matter of habit, or familiarity, but if you have the other characteristics that lahti, to have enough of a sense of self that you can care about other people, care about yourself be kind That kind of thing see reality for what it is. Then I would consider that person

fundamentally emotionally mature enough K, even if they have some of these other characters I mean it's like a lifetime work, if that's the case, because you have that self reflection. and say you're able to watch yourself. And realize. Oh, I didn't like how I did that or what really great style. That's not the way I want to treat people and so you can learn and mature, and hopefully people do that across their entire life span. Let's get back disentangled creating some distance from an e p for your book can be quite difficult. It can lead to difficult interactions,

scribe how some people on the receiving end of a difficult interaction with any ip, can experience brain scramble where you just can't think clearly what are some tactics and tools we can use it for in heated interaction with an ear p m were trying to stand our ground yeah. I would say that many times, one where in a heated interaction with any ip, and particularly if we to stand our ground we are probably going to. Out of that interaction, exhausted and frustrated because as the more reactive that you get and the more you fastened on an outcome that involves there are changing the less likely you are already handle it in a way that is gonna be best for you. So it's not a good thing.

having to go into an interaction trying to assert fight. Your way out of it because mostly immature person is going to change, Jim shaft and evade and deny- and you know, you're gonna- be so frustrated because they don't fight fair. They don't fight objective way If you're trying to stand your ground, be that as you're trying to set a boundary of some sort that to them is slight You know, you're threatening them with crept tonight, there's an existential horror. They have of someone who is insisting that they will not be controlled by them, especially with narcissistic types, its threatens their story about the world, which is that with enough pressure with intimidation with enough strength, vacant,

have what they want and they can get other people to capitulate. so it's much better. I think if people can again remain self possessed think of what the outcome is not trying to change, the other person or change the relationship, but just think about this specific outcome that you want from this interaction and then try to stay calm and oriented toward that outcome. That tends to work better and then it's a question of repeat pete, repeat repeat because they mostly immature person, does not do well with a lot of repetition like that. Someone who just pay interferes with their point of view. I mean that becomes very uninteresting to the emotionally immature person loss at times they just back offer. They bring it to a halt themselves because they don't know what to do with that. They used to people giving in to them

either giving in or mimicking or engaging in that kind of histrionics that are perversely, nourishing to them. Yes, suggested to repeat it back EU seems like if you are in a difficult issue action with any ip or a series of the difficult interactions, its helpful to have a very discreet goal that does not involve changing that person or permanently shifting the relationship you have very discreet goal of me- if you like, I, you know want to make clear that this one thing you're asking of me: I'm not going to do just by way of an example, and you repeat it clear and consistently, and it's likely that they'll just get bored and that's how you can get what you want, but that's how you can stick to your position, see sticking to europe session is a major accomplishment with emotionally immature people. I mean if you can do that

You can go into an interaction with a certain goal in mind for yourself and you walk After that interaction with that same goal, I mean hallelujah that as a fabulous accomplishment, because they haven't scrambled your brain or pulled you off of your own path? point where you know remember what you are trying to do in the interim. action, which is what happens a lot you talk about in these interactions you to have a discreet and realistic goal and not to you know be looking for Changing the other person, the ip fundamentally kennedy ip ever change if they have self reflection, if they have a little bit of self reflection, I mean that's what it takes for anybody to change. How can you Jane yourself. If you have no

sire or no ability to look at your own behaviour made that that the for me that's the absolute essential, and sometimes it's only when things get really bad, that someone is able to be self refill. DR weir substance abuse we now. I have often heard that thing about hitting bottom and so forth, and it doesn't necessarily have to be hitting bottom, but it has to be some experience that bring self reflection into the picture for that person, but whatever that might be, and once they have a little bit of self reflection, which may be brought about by a family member who says you know if you dont get therapy I'm coming home anymore or if we can't work this out and if you can

change some of these things, I can't stay with you the times people are motivated, extrinsically if their emotionally, a mature because they are living. This is what's gonna happen, I continue on this path. That's the beginning of self reflection, life people who enjoy introspection, do self reflection, because it's fun for them for the emotionally image or person they may have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into self reflection, but once they start I do that eat you can in therapy. You know like you can actually nurture that curiosity about them and how they got to be. That way- and so I think they can change, I just think that getting them to the point of self reflection is, is really the very

very hard part, which is why you advise that we go into these encounters with realistic expectations, not like holistic change, expectation exactly cause. If you expect the other person to change a menu The zero control over that for one thing, and it's usually a goal but you're gonna fail at, which is not a great way to go into an interaction. As I keep saying the book is about disentangling. One way to disentangle is complete estrangement. However, you say that there some limits to a strange man. It may not solve everything. What do you mean by that? You know it seems like moving away from somebody or not seeing them. Any more could be a perfect solution to it difficult relationship, but what often happens is that, because human beings carry the pattern

of their relationships inside down, I mean that's how we grow up. That is how we psychologically mature, is by Internalizing interactions internalizing other people's feelings, and, statements and so forth. We build our personality from what's on the outside, but once it's in there we've patterned ourselves. We can move across the country, never see the person again and still carry around the beliefs about ourselves. the attitudes toward life sense of inadequacy aid that may have been our experience with the amount. immature person. We carry this with us. So when people attempt kind of the geographical sure or the strange, make sure you have to realise that it may still be necessary to seek out therapy

for all the internalize patterns, the impact of that on you that you still carry around in a personally inside myself in the therapy session, I'm not thinking gosh. How can I get them to cut out contact with this toxic parent, I'm not taking that unthinking? How can we get this person to stay connected with themselves rules and stay in touch with their own needs and feelings, even while their interacting. With this very difficult person, how can we get them to develop the inner strength and the sense of how the entitlement to be their own person as they interact with this this image or a person. Let's do the necessary work on the inside to strengthen the person in their own individuality, not just take them out of situation and still

then they living all of this inside themselves. where'd, you find generally works in terms of building up somebody's individuality. I think in therapy when you go in and you sit with somebody who looks at you. like you're, really there and treat you, like your psychologically real, that somebody's in there that you have some to say, and that even you're. Smallest feelings are important when you get that experience with somebody, you begin to feel what it's like to feel like an individual

and a lot of people haven't had that, unfortunately, in some of their major relationships, so in therapy you're actually getting the experience of being treated like an individual, you know, but this could happen with a with an excellent spouse. This could happen with a best friend like people say that how important relationships have been in their lives, and and this is why, because that person recognizes, your individuality. They relate to you as a person who s there own thoughts and who s her own feelings and they treat you like your real and it helps shoot sal up yourself. I mean you believe it when somebody sees that in you and so learning how to re conceptualize yourself as an important

individual who is real on the inside and who is just as important as everybody else is like a tremendous antidote to what you are condition to it. Sat with a mostly immature relationships. The antidote to any ip is an empty yes, and also your own sense of individual reality and worthiness yeah, which is developed through interacting with the emotionally mature. Who can immune. Do you get mental lies? In other words, can see you as somebody who has their own psychological reality that can wake something up in you and you see oh yeah, I have agency as well yeah. I love that's so well said to wake something up, and yet that is what you hope will happen

there's a lot of times emotionally immature people? Can I put you to sleep it. The site you're under their spell or its impolite to notice things that there doing or how you see all yeah that sensation of being woken up to that is extremely important. Glad you brought that up coming up, lindsey talks about why she encourages which he calls Eternity gives to forgiveness, handling your own emotionally immature tendencies and how to prevent in scramble when you're talking to somebody who is not making any attempt to understand what you are actually saying.

at boundless. We make socks, underwear and t shirts that feel good and do good. They feel good because their designed with the softest materials and comfort innovations they do good because for every item you purchase, we donate another item to someone who needs it. So far we bombast have donated over one hundred million items and your purchases add to that impact, go to bomb dot com, slash wondering and use code wondering for twenty percent off your first purchase. That's b, o m, be a asked outcome, slash ones and use code wondering at check out pay their listeners. While we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like it's called how I built this warehouse guy rather talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies

to learn how they built them from the ground. Up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well known. Companies like head space, man, Duca, yoga mats cycle and cotopaxi, as well as onto prefers working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that poles energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight Together they discuss their entire journey from day one and all the skills they had to learn along the way like confronting big challenges and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcast, you can listen early and ad free on the amazon or wondering app. If you have interacted with any ip either right up super deep level, as you know, I haven't been raised

one or two having had an intimate relationship with one or even on a less enmeshed level like working with working for somebody, who's emotionally mature. If you ve had this experience, you may be pissed about it and you know, I'm just wondering like is forgiveness, right, move you in your book talk about something you call alternatives to forgiven. yeah, I think it's really been a big cultural emphasis on forgiveness and I, as I mean some of it, is religious, but I think it's now of edged over into being sort of our recommendation for health and I think it's so unfair because I d think people have a lot of control over whether their able to forgive somebody forgiveness, I think, comes to you

when it's ready. When you are ready, I dont think it's something that you You can healthily push yourself into or aspire to, because forgiveness has to be something that genuinely comes from the core of yourself, at least in my definition of forgiveness. It's not lip service. It is a almost a reconsideration of what happened to you to where you can respond with compassion before the other person, or certainly for understanding that person's limit stations that made them do that or Maybe for some people the wholesale religious forgiveness works. Ok, I'm not denying that that happens. I'm just saying

to suggest that as a therapeutic approach or therapeutic method, I dont think is fair to people, and I certainly tell people in there be that that's not a goal. We have to have right now. There's nothing to do with them being a good person, has nothing to do with their recovery. What will influence their recovery is their working through the ceilings of what happened down an owning that as part of their new individuality and when they can do that later on, they can decide whether or not forgiveness is in the cards for this relationship. Ok, but it's not something that you can make yourself do so we have to be respectful of that to what would fall into the category of an alternative working through.

HU the ceilings I see. I see, there's some there's not like a cousin of forgiveness that you are recommending instead to cousin to forgiveness. That's a a great question, maybe like under standing, the roots of it like? If I can understand why you any ip we are giving you yes actually the understanding or the insight to Why a person is that way can lead to a kind of compassion now, as a good human being, maybe at some level a part of you could feel that compassion, but there might be this other part. That is nowhere near forgiveness. I mean we, we are a multi, felicity of parts and our personality sets the way I look at it in a lot of people. Look at it we're not and homogenous attitude. So, yes, you can have compassion

for them, you can have understanding, can make you laugh. Angry, but as far as the forgiveness goes again that belongs to a part of you that we probably grow in that may be, as is another way to look at it, but maybe we Don'T- and I just think that's all right to one of the things you talk about in the book is handling your own emotionally immature tendencies? How we can you no notice when, where, despite hang internally externally are both one of the hallmarks reminded me of a story for the time I was out of my first vacation, I overtook with my wife and what my then girlfriend now why, and I'm were taking off on a plane going to london, and I said it's the me and you show starring me, and

It is definitely an emotionally. It was a joke, but a definitely an emotionally immature thing. You know, like you know, I'm the more important person in the relationship. So what recommend we were seeing this kind of tendency come up in our own mind it such an on going into may and and and in my life, is such an ongoing discovery because half the time. These are things that we have learned either, because we wash your parents or our own natural developmentally appropriate grandiose city wasn't help to kind of come back down to earth and in great with other people, and so we can have these pockets of all. learning or incomplete developmental tasks that pop up, sometimes

and very surprising ways, and so we get to when we are aware of emotional immaturity, we get to recognise that in ourselves we get to see it and then ask ourselves. Is that what I think is that all is that the way I wanna be or whatever, and we can begin to choose, we begin to create Our sat. What we were trading ourselves every day and maturation goes on the entire lifespan and we get to choose which way we want to go. We always have these pass and from boss, these potential outcomes and we can decide what we want to nurture and ourselves and what we doubt give you an example- I, when I was working on one of my previous books I like to camp out at the dining room table. We have servant open concept house, and so I would camp out at the dining room table.

And when my husband would go in and out of the sliding door to the deck. I would shoot. Dagger looks at him because he was disturbed me now, I'm the one who's camped out in the middle of the house: and he brought to my attention and and his kind reasonable way and pointed out that I was taking up all the room and being mad at him for living his life in our house. Alright. Now that was something that I had learned from my childhood, which was I learned not to bother anybody know somebody look like they were busy you in a walked on tiptoe around them that they wouldn't get upset with you. Well, my husband isn't thinking like tat and so he's living his life and I had to realise: oh, that's a pretty egocentric position where I'm

city. There were I wanna work and then I'm expecting and assuming that he's going to honour the fact that I need peace and quiet. So when that was brought to my attention, self reflection started. Choice started. Do I want to be like this? Do I want to make him feel rotten for opening the door, no it's not who I wanna be. I get to decide who I am it'd be if somebody will bring it to my attention. So maybe that's just a personal example, but there are a million things like that, where it does get brought to our attention, how we want to develop ourselves in which way we wanna go. Yes, and the good news is that, if you're paying attention, you'll notice that it feels better to not be an asshole and that's a very positive upward spiral. Absolutely because, after that, when I decided to

my little laptop and go downstairs. I had a light atta girl, pat on the back, because I'm becoming the kind of person who, in my own house, is considerate of this person I love more than anybody else. I feel good too, It is meaningful. So I'm acting in line with my principles, and I myself esteem goes up as living in that way, as opposed to thoughtlessly, are there things that I should have- few, but fail to ask you any any place. You wanted to go that I didn't bring you theo I would like to add: is you had mentioned brain scramble earlier and I do want to mention that there is this thing that happens emotionally immature people where you end up now not being able to get your thoughts, stray you're, not able to

say what you really mean. You lose your track of thought you become confused. You start to wonder if, in a maybe you're crazy, the effect on people by emotionally immature people can- so disorienting and make you feel so much self doubt and is important for people to know that that's normal. Ok, when you try to maybe talk to an emotionally immature person about something difficult, you should just expect that you may, fail to get your point across. You may fail to do the kind of argument that you had plan cause when somebody is not interested in what you have to say that when they are not listening to you when they're going off on tangent

when there are acting like there's something wrong with you that you're disagreeing with them. That is very disorienting, an destabilizing! Ok, so I just I just want to mention that, because I don't want people to continue to feel like their weak or can't keep their thoughts straight when they haven't. counter with an emotionally mature person. I want them to realise that's part and parcel of their interaction, all way of doing things and If you're aware of that, then you can change it and you can go into it again with a simplified, focused outcome in mind where you dont get pulled off into these things that don't make any sense so. I just want to mention that, because a lot of people don't understand how disk

Bobby Lady, it is one another person is not listening site if a person to understand what sang. doesn't matter how you say it they're gonna, do the work to understand you. If a person doesn't want to understand you, then it doesn't matter what you say. Because they are not even going to be listening to what you're saying so, it's not like you can ever find the perfect way to approach them because they're not gonna, be taking it in the first place. So just want people to know that that since asian of brains amble or not being able to get your thoughts together not be able to express yourself. That is probably a side effect of interacting with an emotionally mature person. That's helpful, would you recommend, in terms of prevent in the brain scramble, and is it helpful utopia,

you're about having a simple goal going into one of these interactions. Would that be helpful in terms of proof the brain scramble and what would an example of a simple goal be like say that you want to tell somebody that you can't host thanksgiving at your house that share that you want tell a parrot or good friend or what, I work, and you know that this is going to upset them, because you always host thanksgiving, so you're going to have to tell them something they don't want to hear. When you go into that situation, you have to decide what is an achievable outcome. Now they achieve outcome in that case is not that my mother, my best friend at, are going to be happy with

my decision or they're going to gracefully accept my position because maybe the opposite is going to be true. They are going to be upset they're, going to try to persuade me they're going to try to guilt me, but you can have a goal that can be achieved which might be. I am going to Tell them what my preferences are, what I'm going to do or not do and then, if they try to persuade me, I will repeat myself: and if it keeps going on and it seems like we're getting upset with each other, I am going to ask if we can table this and talk about it later. Ok, there's mike aim plan. I met a sad, I'm gonna repeat it gonna ask the table? It is not going well now unprepared and that's all areas those things is under my control. I, like that before I let you go. Can you

four might everybody the name of your new book, maybe the names of your prior books, any other resources you ve put out into the world The new book that's coming out July. First is disentangling from emotionally immature people and it's really geared toward all kinds: relationships with emotionally immature people, not just with parents its cash at this is light. The fourth book I think in the series that began with adult children of emotionally immature parents, which was the best cell. Well that really made the big splash and its neck well evolution of that. But I do want to mentioned dan, that if people want to go to my website, to see additional information, they can go there two linsey gibson p S. Why day side de dot com will bundling tibet and the show now Meantime was thank you very much always great to talk to you

Thanks for having me there's been a pleasure like was thanks again to lindsey, always great talk to lindsey gibson. Thank you as well to do for listen really appreciate that go, give us a rating or review that really helps thanks, finally, to everybody who work so hard on the show? Ten percent happier is produced by Gabriel's ackerman justine, gavi, lorn, psmith, patera anderson dj. mirrors, our senior producer worse schneider mean as our senior editor and can be regular is the boss. Our executive producer goring and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio, nick thorburn of islands, grating rock band delivered. Our theme will see you all on friday for a bonus, meditation, a prime members,

you can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon music down the amazon music cap today or you can listen early and ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go to a salad. Tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com slash servant, raising kids can be one of the greatest roof. words of parents life but come on some days, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid fact: is a new parenting podcast from one dream that shares our freshly, honest and insightful, take on parenting hosted by myself, making gaily. chris garcia and curt brown, or we will be a resident, not so expert exports each week will share a parenting story. That I'll have you laughing nodding and thinking? Oh yeah, I have absolutely bad there we'll talk about what

right and wrong. What would we do differently and the next time you step on yet another stray lego in the middle of the night. You'll feel less alone soviet laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world. Listen to. I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcast, you can listen ads we on the amazon, music or wondering app