Our relationships are the most important variable in our health and happiness, but they may also be the most difficult. This is especially true when those closest to us turn out to be emotionally immature people.
Lindsay C. Gibson is a clinical psychologist and bestselling author who specializes in helping people identify and deal with emotionally immature people, or EIP’s. Her first appearance on our show was one of our most popular episodes of 2022. Now she’s back to offer concrete strategies for handling the EIP’s in your life, wherever you may find them. Her new book is called Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People.
In this episode we talk about:
- A primer on the cardinal characteristics of emotionally immature people (EIP’s), how to spot them, and why you might want to
- What Lindsay means by “disentangling” from EIP’s, and how to do it
- What often happens to your own sense of self when you’re in relationship (or even just in conversation) with an EIP
- How to interact with an EIP
- How to prevent brain scramble when you’re talking with someone who isn’t making any attempt to understand what you’re saying
- How she reacts when she comes across EIP’s in her everyday life
- Whether it’s possible to have some immature characteristics without being an EIP
- Handling your own emotionally immature tendencies
- Whether or not EIP’s can change
- The limits of estrangement
- Why she encourages “alternatives to forgiveness”
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The ten percent happier podcast dan Harris
hello, everybody quick
andrew before we dive in we've got our first live podcast coming up on september, seventh, twenty twenty three at the armory in Boston, we're going to have a very special guests and when I say very special, I truly mean
and this is going to be awesome- it's a very small venue. So if you want tickets, go to the link in the show notes, double quick. If this experiment works, we may start doing
if shows around the country in the world, so excited see how this place out? Let's talk about today's episode, though I may have made this observation before on the show
It may not even be an original observation. However, it is my view that one of life's most fascinating and thorny paradoxes-
Is that one the one hand we need other people in order to be happy? On the other hand, other people can be a gigantic.
pain in the ass. As the french existentialist writer John Paul Sartre once said, hell is other people,
and yet we know from science that perhaps on a much deeper level, hell is loneliness which can really degrade us both psychologically and physiologically, which leaves us with a tricky task. If we want to take our happiness seriously
we need to cultivate good relationships while being aware that this shit ain't, easy all of which brings me to today's guest, who has become an expert in toxic people or as she calls them emotionally immature people. We've had the clinic
psychologists, lindsey gibson on the show once before that was last year, twenty twenty two- and it was one of the best performing episodes of the year so without we'd, have her back because she's out with a new book called dis entangling from emotionally image
people, it's the fourth in her ongoing series on this topic. In this conversation, we start with a run through the basics on the cardinal characteristics of emotionally immature people are.
yeah, I peas, how to spot them and why you might want to. Then we turn to what doktor gibson means by this
tackling from ie I peas and how to
which, by the way, disentangled, does not necessarily mean estrangement. What often happens your own sense of self, when you're in relationship or even
then a conversation with any ip how to best interact with any ip specifically. However,
brain scramble when you're talking with somebody who isn't making any attempt to understand what you're saying how she linsey reacts went
comes across the ipcc in her everyday life, whether it's possible to have a mature characteristic
without being any ip hand
in your own emotionally immature tendencies, weather
yeah? I've he's can change the limits of a strange rent and why she encourages alternatives to forgiveness. One quick audio note here: you may here a few straight,
background noise is on wednesday, then that's the nature of remote recording before we get started with today's episode. Let's talk about summer
even in the sunshine or on vacation. Many of us struggled to enjoy me time or even worse. We struggled estate present during last time with friends and loved.
to learn how to actually unwise this summer check out the relaxing restore meditation pack in the ten percent happier app meditation can help you.
Come more mindful and relax, no matter what you're doing whether you're killing out on the beach catching up on your favorite
Joe or having a deep conversation download the ten percent
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Lindsey gibson welcome back to the show it's great to be back Dan thanks for having me it's a pleasure. We talked about this. The last time you were on, but for people who didn't hear that episode or haven't had time to go back and listen to it. Can you
give us the basic definition of emotionally immature people. Sure emotional image
surety is a line of development, just like.
Will develop in their intellect they develop in there
social skills they develop physically. These are all lines of development that most of us are pretty adapted, noticing weather.
person has developed normally in those areas. Emotional
maturity is its own separate line of development, and so you can have a person who could be
intellectually, very bright, very accomplished, or they could be super socially skill. Them
is popular person in their group, but that doesn't mean anything
hang about their level of emotional maturity. Emotion,
maturity,
really is seen when the person is under stress.
or if there are any emotionally intimate relationship. Those are the two places that emotional
Charity shows itself so
there are a lot of areas in life that people show up in. The don't have to do
with emotional intimacy and they don't have to do in a with stress that they just normal day.
functioning and these people look perfectly normal, but when they go home
and they are faced with relation
ship issues or stresses that,
may not show and other situations. Then the people who
living with them.
really get to see the emotional immaturity and they really bear the brunt of it in a way
Other people might say why your mom, she so sweet, you so cute or could be
because, when you such a great guy, what are you talking about is because it's not
went to show up until these particular
conditions, are there
If we want just do a quick run through of the card
risks of emotional and majority, the first one is that they tend to be very egocentric
these are people who are self preoccupied.
there are always thinking of. What's in it for them. How is it going to affect them, and they really don't have
Much appreciation that other people are site.
Logically, real on the inside their more alike, characters and apply that the person is in. They have poor empathy, it's hard for them to feel
what other people are feeling, so they don't have great imagination when it comes to putting themselves in someone else's shoes and they don't
underlies what other people are. Probably thinking about. They also have very poor
off reflection? So if they have a problem in a relation,
shep or in our problem
were there, not
winter ass themselves, gee you know, did I do something to cause that was there's something
as I was saying that was making this person uncomfortable, that would not occur to them because they externalize and project blame.
For most things that go wrong in their lives. This makes it very hard for them to change to, because the people that come to cycle there
They usually are the ones who are asking themselves those questions and they do have the potential for tat
information, because their showings
curiosity about how their share
up in the world and the effects that their causing, but not the emotionally immature person
you're, very afraid of emotional intimacy like when you try to get close to them or open up to them or get them to talk.
Themselves, genuine deeper level. They are likely to back up and become very unkind.
If the ball brush it off change the subject maker quip they just don't like to be down,
in that kind of emotionally intimate
deep kind of interaction which is tragic when it's their child, because that's what
this need is someone who can go down and their feelings with them.
then. Finally, they do this thing where
They interpret reality according to how they feel so if it feels like something is happening like against them
then that's fact and their mind if they feel like you dont, like them or
your criticising them. Even if that's not your and tat is not what you said, they use their feelings just like
children do
to tell them what the
sir reality is now. This is like
really immature waited to hive, because you can't guide yourself effective way through adult life on the basis of what things feel like to you.
May we can use our intuition and waken use our feelings, but we need to have an external objective ability to
You interpret reality based on something other than our own eco centralism, and they also tend to adjust. Reality said that it doesn't upset them, so they will deny things. Dismay
things distort things I never happened. I never said that. What are you talk
about because it
don't want to deal with that. They will just not deal with it. So those are some of the cardinal characteristics of emotional immature
I remember the last time you were on. You were talking about some of the cardinal characteristics and my question
Well, I I see a lot of myself and we are going to talk about it later in this discussion.
and what to do when you're noticing emotional them
turkey in your own mind, but let you stay with other people for a second, you said,
the interesting about how emotional immaturity shows up in one or two
places generally one would be under stress. The other would be an emotional intimate relationships and am remit.
really what I thought was a very wise thing that a friend of mine said to me like twenty years ago. I said this cliche thing about how, when people are understood
ass, you really get to see the real them and my first
and who went on to become a psychiatrist who was not medical trained at this point, said so, there's always stuck with me, which was that actually, no, I think what people are in distress
that is really not who they are. It's you know the amygdala, the distress part of the brain is activated and and its who they
most of the time, that's the real measure. So what do you think of that yeah? I think your friend is right. I mean I would hate
have somebody judge my emotional maturity.
on how I act when I'm super stressed, but it's more like you can think about,
it as when your stress, you're, gonna, use certain coping
As I was just you know, that's what we all do. We have our defences. We have our coping mechanisms.
the person who is relatively emotionally mature, even when their stress there still
to be aware of the effect on other people
They're still gonna be aware of the realities that unity,
maybe upset they may be.
You know out of their mind with anxiety or worry, but some of these foundational things you're still gonna have the feeling that they are in touch with reality, even though realities
I'm suffer but there's still in touch with reality, and you can still relate to them. Ok, with the emotionally immature person is likely to be
much more blackened. Why much more of a rigid response, much more? Judging
blaming deny all distortion insisting. So that is what
if you're really looking forward during the episode of stress is what is the quality of it? Are you still able to reach them?
Person knows, there's somebody still in their or are you
dealing with a bunch of reactive defence mechanisms. That's all about trying to
make them feel better and then, as the stress goes down, does the person come back and
a while, I'm sorry, I was so off the wall. With that, I was just really scared. I didn't know what I was gonna do but yeah sorry I
act. Your ear off. You need to have some awareness that they were quite themselves, whereas an emotionally immature person, they won't come back and do that kind of self reflection, that's not what their focusing on is, how they have affected other people. Does that help yet does ok? How do we?
spot betty ip and what's the benefit of spotting them. In other words, what's the benefit of making this amateur remote diagnosis of somebody else's phenotype so yet to park question? How do we spot them and why they can be there
hard to spot, because a lot of them, especially if they have narcissistic components to their personality and by the way
I look at it is that all narcissistic personality
disorders are emotionally immature, but certain
not all emotionally mature people
we're narcissistic, so it's kind of like a sub category, but they are very hard to spot because, like assent, there
social skills, their intelligence, all that is fine and
you may be really drawn in and really
relate very well to them for a long time, you know, like, let's say, you're, doing something:
business with them or let's say you start to date. Thumb things can go well
long time and hum reminded of this site, Herbie classically who worked with psychopath, as whose certainly
emotionally mature, and he said that he could always tell a psychopath, because that was the person he lent money too.
So are we
if you know about emotional, immaturity, you're, going to respond to charm you're, going to respond to attention
you're going to respond to social
charming and facility, I mean we all respond to that stuff, but over time, as you get to know the person
You gonna find out a lot more about how they cope with life and how they treat other people
at the beginning of the relationship
They feel like the only person on earth in their eyes, but as time
There is on you
see how they handle disagreements you'll see how they
handle it when things don't go there way and you'll see what they do when it looks like they're not going to get everything that they want. That's kind.
Where the robber meets the road, and you start to see. You know some of these things be directed backing
you are in a very unpleasant way or maybe you'll get the cold shoulder, but it won't be that they will come toward you and try to work it out with you. What they'll do instead is express their displeasure and hope that you get the message that you need to shape up and be the way that they want you to.
So I think it crucial that we be aware of emotional and maturity and look out for it, because what happens
We go ahead and marry that person or we go ahead and make that business deals
contract with somebody who's not able to do some of the basics of working out problems with other people. I mean that's, that's a tough
couple situation to get yourself into. So yes, though,
why is because it's going to be a hard road with that person. If you have to
you negotiate or work things out with them when things get tough and its much easier to spend the time up
to get to know them better in the kind of suss out whether,
They do handle things and emotionally mature ways. It's much more.
Economical to spend the time up fraud than their pay later.
How do you know you're right and most of us are not clinicians. So how do we know for right in our diagnosis loan to me,
You know it's going off those hallmark characteristics
every one of those spells trouble for,
a long term relationship I mean
if you dont have empathy or you are not comfortable with intimacy or you can't self reflect, for instance,
you're not gonna, be a very good partner in any kind,
relationship. It's gonna be hard,
on the other person, you dont have to be a clinician
to know that when somebody gives you the cold, shoulder spy,
currently to you in a way that makes you feel very small, refuses to talk with you about problems, because they just
like it? They just don't see why they should
any normal human being is going to have a reaction to that, because the interpersonal quality
relationship with an mostly image or person is-
sooner or later, you're gonna end up emotionally taking care of them, putting them first and kind of agreeing.
That there, the most important person in the relationship and that gets tiring but you'll be able
tell that people do
early in relationships, it's there
They haven't known what to call that.
So they might have those experiences and then choose
get up to here.
tired or they now was a very sensitive.
to her or in other make excuses for it. That's why they are so important for
to know about emotional and maturity, because some of these things can be
I've long patterns that maybe you
don't want to get involved with your book is about. The new book is about disentangled from
the ip is, and I want to talk at great length about that because sometimes
Doesnt dangling is not really an option nor or its more difficult. If it's like your boss or your parent, then you know a prospective romantic partner business partner. Any I do want to get to that, but before we get into that
love to talk a little bit more about your ip is generally admitted throw a bunch of questions at you in you. You can pick whichever one is interesting to you
I'm just curious like how common do think this is as a percentage of the population and how does any ip get me
Why are they this way, yeah
more is said about the quality of the inner personal relationship is going to have a particular tone to it. Like you,
going to end up being the one who feels responsible for
Most choice stabilizing
the emotionally immature person they kind of give you the job.
Of making them feel better or calming them down, and they also give you the job of making sure that their self esteem stays good. So those too
who interactions are very central to end
kind of emotionally
mature relationship system, you're going to find yourself put in the past,
edition of being kind of an emotional caretaker
or or the person who beefs up their self esteem and that's
why said, is very tiring, because it's an energy drain to be that alert to another person's inner stay,
So you know when you hear terms like energy,
empire or you note how draining someone is that's because
are not able to really modulate their own emotions and soothed themselves, and
they turn to you to help them
regulate their own emotions. Now, that's exactly what little kids do and we expect
them to do that. That's normal and healthy, because they cannot regulate their internal stay there
need to be able to come to an adult and have
adult understand with empathy what's going on inside that child and then
spawn in ways that suits them, help them learn.
calm down and that's normal development. The child gets theirself
steam internalized through
many interactions with their parent, where the parent laws that child and adores that child
and that little child is just the cutest little thing ever and the child feels
I did in and they internalize that self esteem offer emotionally immature people were probably happens.
is that there is some difficulty that occurs in the attachment process or in the
Basic quality of relationship with their parents? Are their caretakers something
happens where they are not able to trust and complete. That process of internal
seeing their own comfort,
and their own ability to regulate their reactions in response
this distress, it may be that they experience trauma. Trawler just stops
development in certain areas that might happen. There might be external things that break apart the parents ability to be there for the child through no fault of the child
or the parrot in our like natural disasters or illnesses, things like that. But the problem is that that child's
developmental needs therein
sure needs, don't
go away because there's been a natural disaster, they continue and when the parrot.
b to too overwhelmed to respond.
The child, the child's not getting something
needed to continue their psychological grow
their emotional development. So that's how it may happen
I dont know that there are
are any studies about emotional
charity and how it develops yet, but we
we have a lot of information from attachment studies that, when the child
is not in a securely attached relationship,
early in life. They don't pick up a lot of these things there
We assume a normal person to have liked the empathy and the ability to think of other people and then for the. How common is it? I think you can
read the news I watched the the worldly referred to me up, I mean I mean it's all over the place. People behaving badly tape,
well, who react to stress by starting wars, you know, personally, I think you know I have to do is
read the newspaper and realise how widespread,
emotional immaturity really is because you can see the eager centralism even see the refusal to self reflect you can see
the lack of empathy that distortion that denial, I think, is probably very common-
I have no idea of the percentage I just suspected higher than we want it to be I've, a million other questions about your vips generally, including whether they can never change but
come back to that because I do want to get to the tactical
nation and guidance for those of us who have
peace in our life. Men want to disentangle again
entangling is in the title of your book. What do you mean by that? What is disentanglement? Look like yeah. We know it
describing how emotionally immature people set up their relationships? I called them
Surely a mature relationship system, meaning that they're looking for you to help a most
We stabilize them and build up their self esteem, and there are also look
to be the most important person in that relationship. That's what they're all about so that system needs to untangle. You,
in it, for you to be constantly available to them in a way that makes them feel good, ok makes them feel calm makes them feel sick
the list, so we get entangled because we end up finding ourselves paul
old into our role,
kind of
psychological, a logical, caretaking that we never anticipated. We never signed up for an yet we're deep into it. We were
dealing with their reactions were helping them to feel better we're dealing with their
anger there, a lot of things going on that tend to pull people in
to a relationship that ends up feeling like your time
golden it doesn't feel like you're free to be yourselves. It doesn't feel like you're important too.
just as important is down. It feels like they're, the ones
Who are consuming all the resources in the relationship and also because a mostly mature people don't have a great sense of self? They tend to do this
That has been called in management, meaning that they
draw, other people into their sense of identity. So
let's say that a woman
marries a man who then becomes part of her identity, as
successful or a socially well respected woman, but he becomes in this example. Kind of an eye
jack in her life. That is, for the purpose of her
own identity or less science
a mother who insists on telling her grown child what to do how to
of their lives and that in management means that the
boundaries are not good the boundaries that should be there between two individual adults are not being respected and that other person,
is seen merely as an extension of the emotionally immature person and that kind of bonds
is someone who is saying you as certain over an extension of themselves. I mean that feels awful and people.
want to at some point in that they begin to want,
get away. They begin to have to distance themselves from that person, but what I'm trying to do in the book is not just how do you distance,
herself from a person like back ass, most people figure that out, but if you
have to be in relationship with them or you want.
Be in relationship with them. How do you
oh about psychologically,
entangling yourself from down. How do you find yourself after you, ve gotten, tangled up in being,
hu. The emotionally immature person thanks you oughta, be so different.
Going doesn't necessarily mean cutting off. All ties can mean just having some inner boundaries. Yes, exactly that's a really good way of saying at its inner boundaries. It's a sense of self possession,
a sense that I know where I begin and
and I know where you start- and I can tell the difference between what I won- what you want
and I'm not going to be manipulated
into losing that distinction. Hmm. So what does that look like? So if you've got a boss or a spouse, a sibling, a friend or a pair of twos, gotten an instrumental view of you who were there and mashed in a way that
You just become an extension of their ego. How would you manage that
add on an ongoing basis. If you didn't want to cut them out of your life yeah. Well, the fact is that
as long as you're unconscious of the process,
as long as you're unconscious are unaware of what is happening.
Between you like what the dynamic is, that you're being kind
maneuvered into this particular raul or your basement.
Over it and the following. These expectations are out you're a bad person if you're not aware of that, you probably org
and get maneuvered into that because there so good at intervals.
maybe they ve gotten really good at getting other people to take care of them and
Oh, if you don't have that awareness of the dynamic
You're gonna, move into that relationship and be kind of taken over by them
so for me, it seems crucial that people be
aware of what emotional immaturity looks like and what its motives are its
motive is not to make your life miserable or to harm you or anything like that. The mode
of the emotionally mature relationship system? Is, I can't do it
on my own I'm image shore, I dont, have a strong sense of self. I cant figure
world at very well and their needs. Somebody to run
appearance remained its somebody to take care of me. They're, not bad people at all, but they're scared people,
and their inadequate in many respects.
and so you know, if you have an iota of empathy, you probably going to sense that about them and they can pull you into a relationship where you know
you ve really and applying them, get away with too much and use
your boundaries too late, and these are things that can be avoided.
if we are aware of some of these,
of emotional immaturity, the first step in
not getting and mashed is to begin to ask yourself whether or not this person seems
to be able to take my needs into account as well as theirs. Can they
and all problems can the hand
the frustrations. What happens if we have a difference of opinion?
what happens if I need their help, do they?
spawned. Are they always
busy. I mean: what's the quality,
the relationship and when sir
or later you begin to feel taken advantage of or begins to feel, like it's kind of outweighed on their side about whose getting
the most attention and benefit from the relationship, and that starts to happen. That's when you need to
who become very observant and very objective about what
going on in the relationship
by that I mean that you begin to observe how
you're behaving, what they're doing and
you can have never read it to yourself. So you get increases your objectivity and your perspective
said that you're not pulled, and to this end
angled relationship where you're just reacting emotionally, for mostly immature people, is a dream. Come true.
When you go in and you are reacting emotionally to them, because their so effective at using
to get what they want
So when you pull back and become object
an observation. All you are
freeing yourself from that emotionally
mature relationship system and you're, giving yourself an opportunity to really be yourself in that person's presents, instead of just the reflection of what they want to say, so that being yourself is so crucially important for therapy pay,
since people I've worked with who have people in their lives like this. That's the number one thing we have to do is just to get them to pay attention to what they want, how they feel what they think is right, because
get so muddled up with being consumed
what the emotionally immature person wants remained one. That system is working, that's where your thoughts go is.
yeah, but what about damn? What what's going to happen to him? What's going to happen to her? It's like remember, to take care of yourself first and to make sure that you set boundaries that give you the space to be in touch with yourself, like that. Coming up, lindsay c gibson talks about what often
your own sense of self, when you're in relationship or even just a conversation with an ye ip how to interact with the ip more effect
really how she reacts when she comes across anti ip and nature, whether or not yet peace can
age and the limits of estrangement, the show
a sponsored by better health. Sometimes in life we are faced with tough choices in the path forward is not always clear I've. I hid crossroads, all that
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how, if you were raised by any ip or your and our relationship at deeply enmeshed relationship with any ip you can. These are
Your words here you can trade authenticity for approval cannot lose your sense of self because you ve got this interpersonal
mind virus going on here? And I m here you
correctly when the rubber
the road in your inane interact
and with any ip. You really need mindfulness self awareness to see. Ok am I being
version wants me to be right now or a being who I am, and that seems tricky in and of itself, because
possible that you ve actually never export that question of who you are what you want. Yeah, that's somethin. I mean that is really
what it comes down to it, because if you have been
raised by emotionally immature parents yourself, you ve, been trained to put yourself at the
very back of the line you ve been trained to.
about how what you do is going to affect the people and
Pham way, you ve been trained to think about powers,
mom and dad gonna feel about this, how do I keep them com so yeah? Absolutely you can come
to an adult relationship with an emotionally immature person and if you ve been raised with them
You are automatically like you said dan you're automatically going to put them first, it's going to feel natural, it's going to feel normal to do that and then you're going to lose touch with what is actually going
on inside yourself. So when you brought up that
the mindfulness exactly it's like you forget to even experience your own presents. It's not something that you ve ever been trained to do. If you are right
is by under mostly mature apparent, and it's so important it did you do it
talk about this in my own life, I don't think I was raised by e ips. I am, maybe I'm not seeing my parents clearly, but I think they were quite mature and pretty great parents, but I
I believe there are people in my life, including some bosses,
time, and particularly charismatic colleagues- and
clearly not a few family members who fit the description, and when I interpret back to those interactions, I really
sadly love the word authenticity. I love the concept, but the word sometimes it can be
so vague or
clean that I lose a foothold in.
the true meaning of it, and yet
can really see that there are two
when I'm dealing with any ip that I do lose my authenticity I'm playing into.
their hands because I'm so eager to like not be the bad guy exactly exactly, and they are very adapt
at giving you a sense of moral obligation to do that. It's not just take
of me and made me feel good about myself. It is you,
have a moral obligation to put me first and take care of me because that's what good sounds? Good husbands, good friends do
and then you get kind of emotionally coerced into feeling bad because it generates guilt or shame self doubt, and what does a self reflective person do when they have self doubt they start looking?
information outside of EM cells to kind of get a red on the situation, because maybe they're wrong. You know, but that is like you say that is like playing right into the maneuvers that mostly mature people do to keep themselves feelings
even in control. Actually don't like the word manipulate, because I dont think they're doing at consciously
I don't think they're doing it to harm any body. I don't think they're trying to make
people's lives miserable. I think these are all defensive maneuvers to keep them from feeling
inadequate or afraid,
aid or something really really awful. I think
they're trying to stay away from some interferes in
in securities that they really don't want to get in touch with their not trying to do that at your expenses? Just like a person,
going under for the last times, not trying
the drowned the person whose rescuing them it's just. They need someone to stand on top of to get a breath of air. I appreciate that perspective. Do
ever get perversely excited when you meet in ye ip out and nature. You know at a barbecue or whatever, because it gets you d like to
gives you an opportunity to just study them in the wild. Actually, I I have to confess that I do
if a little excitement encounter them in the watchful just
because I know what I'm looking for now. You know
Then let me also hasten to add that I also get excited
when I run into emotionally mature people, because I can tell
they are too, you know they're the ones who listen
They are the ones who remember what you said in a two minutes ago who try to integrate what you told them into
something else that they're asking you about. You feel
com in their presence. You feel safe in their presence, so I get excited by both of them. This
it's not the analyzing down the fund is not getting pulled,
to something where in the past you know, maybe I would have lost myself or lost my perspective with this person yeah. I can imagine it's like testing your skills in real time, yeah, exactly exactly
you talked about emotionally mature people and how you each fund to run into them and you're nervous system senses it. You feel safe com heard understood brief tangent. I recently read somewhere. I think it was on. This is excellent news. Litter called the margin, alien and either the author
or somebody she was quoting talked about, how understanding is actually just another name for love, which I actually find out an interesting concept: air,
Anyway, you talked about how, when you're with an emotionally mature person you'd feel like they kind of get you there clicked in there listening they're switched on, and I dunno, if I'll be able to articulate this
Put me in mind of a kind of definitional question about emotionally immature people, because you spent
at a time in this interview dwelling on this concept of emotional and measurement, they feel like their drowning. They feel unsafe, so they co opt other p
all, as life rafts in a hostile world, didn't get the support they needed, perhaps as it kid and so they're, just
constantly lodging onto it now and yet, when you listed
the many hallmarks of emotional immaturity. There are other aspects to it like interpreting everything. Through the lens of the self b
totally self centered believe
you do right all the time. I think you mentioned that, but maybe didn't today at least are located mentioned it. So I
I know, a lot of people who have those characteristics, perhaps even myself in spades
then maybe they don't have the whole and measurement thing at least clearly, and so I'm just wondering, would they not qualify for
we as emotionally mature what I look for.
It is kind of the opposite of those all mark characteristics. In other words, let such
get that if we are nervous set for
going through an emergency our
ocean? All maturity will probably plummet. Nobody is.
at their most empathic non egocentric best
when they're really sec or things are
like going wrong. So regression absolutely
it can happen to all of us. I will certainly don't count myself out of
because I know how I've been one. I've been in some rough situations, the site. You are now
error best self you're, not thinking about other people.
In the same way you would, when all your needs are being taken care of so
we have to keep that in mind, but you know a person can show egocentric qualities they can have,
or empathy. At times they may not be great itself reflection. They may get uncomfortable when
things get to emotionally and you have always characteristics. But if you have the ability to be otherwise
other times to me? That's a person who does have adequate emotional maturity, because at times they are capable of true empathy
now just doing it to get what they want. They really can't help but feel what somebody else feels they really do. Take other people into account. You know, like maybe
They wouldn't do something because it just wouldn't be right to the other people. They don't know these people, but they just don't think it's fair that they do this because they have that sense of other people are just as
real, as I am you know, they may shy away from emotional intimacy at times, but when it comes right down to it with their
good friend or their made or whoever
child. They can be right there. They can be fully present in the moment they can.
Tolerate it. Well, they can
available for other people, said the way
look at it is. You can maybe grow up in circumstances that
each you a lot of emotionally immature qualities-
that you may show as a matter of habit,
or familiarity, but if you have the other characteristics that
lahti, to have enough of a sense of self that you can care about other people, care about yourself be kind
That kind of thing see reality for what it is. Then I would consider that person
fundamentally emotionally mature enough K, even if they have some of these other characters
I mean it's like a lifetime work, if that's the case, because you have that self reflection.
and say you're able to watch yourself.
And realize. Oh, I didn't like how I did that or what
really great style. That's not the way I want to treat people and
so you can learn and mature, and hopefully people do that across their entire life span. Let's get back
disentangled creating some distance from an e p for your book can be quite difficult. It can lead to difficult interactions,
scribe how some people on the receiving end of a difficult interaction with any ip, can experience brain scramble where you just can't think clearly what are some tactics and tools we can use it for in heated interaction with an ear
p m were trying to stand our ground yeah. I would say that many times, one where in a heated interaction with any ip, and particularly if we
to stand our ground we are probably going to.
Out of that interaction, exhausted and frustrated because
as the more reactive that you get
and the more you fastened on an outcome that involves there are changing the less likely you are already
handle it in a way that is gonna be best for you. So it's not a good thing.
having to go into an interaction trying to assert
fight. Your way out of it because
mostly immature person is going to change,
Jim shaft and evade and deny- and you know, you're gonna- be so frustrated because they don't fight fair. They don't fight objective way
If you're trying to stand your ground,
be that as you're trying to set a boundary of some sort that to them is slight
You know, you're threatening them with crept tonight, there's an existential horror. They have of
someone who is insisting that they will not be controlled by them, especially with narcissistic types, its threatens their
story about the world, which is that with enough pressure with
intimidation with enough strength, vacant,
have what they want and they can get other people to capitulate.
so it's much better. I think if people can again remain self possessed think of what the outcome is not trying to change,
the other person or change the relationship, but just think about this specific outcome that you want from this interaction and then try to stay calm and oriented toward that outcome. That tends to work better and then it's a question of repeat
pete, repeat repeat because they mostly immature person, does not do well with a lot of repetition like that. Someone who just pay
interferes with their point of view. I mean that becomes very uninteresting
to the emotionally immature person loss at times they just back offer. They bring it to a halt themselves because they don't know what to do with that. They used to people giving in to them
either giving in or mimicking or engaging in that kind of histrionics that are perversely, nourishing to them. Yes, suggested to repeat it back EU seems like
if you are in a difficult issue
action with any ip or a series of the difficult interactions, its helpful to have a very discreet goal that does not
involve changing that person or permanently shifting the relationship you have very discreet goal of me-
if you like, I, you know want to make clear that this one thing you're asking of me: I'm not going to do just by way of an example, and you repeat it clear
and consistently, and it's likely that they'll just get bored and that's how you can get what you want, but that's how you can stick to your position, see sticking to europe
session is a major accomplishment with emotionally immature people. I mean if you can do that
You can go into an interaction with a certain
goal in mind for yourself and you walk
After that interaction with that same goal, I mean
hallelujah that as a fabulous accomplishment, because they haven't
scrambled your brain or pulled you off of your own path?
point where you know
remember what you are trying to do in the interim.
action, which is what happens a lot you talk about in these interactions you to have a discreet and realistic goal and not to you know be looking for
Changing the other person, the ip fundamentally kennedy ip
ever change if they have self reflection,
if they have a little bit of self reflection, I mean that's what it takes for anybody to change. How can you Jane
yourself. If you have no
sire or no ability to look at your own behaviour made that that the for me that's the absolute essential, and sometimes it's only when things get really bad, that someone is able to be self refill.
DR weir substance abuse we now. I have often heard that thing about hitting bottom and so forth, and it doesn't necessarily have to be hitting bottom, but it has to be some experience that bring self reflection into the picture for that person, but whatever that might be, and once they have a little bit of self reflection,
which may be brought about by a family member who says you know if you dont get therapy I'm
coming home anymore or if we can't work this out and if you can
change some of these things, I can't stay with you
the times people are motivated, extrinsically if their emotionally,
a mature because they are
living. This is what's gonna happen,
I continue on this path. That's the beginning of self reflection, life
people who enjoy introspection, do self reflection, because it's fun for them for the emotionally image or person they may have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into self reflection, but once they start
I do that eat you can in therapy. You know like you can actually nurture that curiosity about them and how they got to be. That way- and so I think they can change, I just think that getting them to the point of self reflection is, is really the very
very hard part, which is why you advise that we go into these encounters with realistic expectations, not like holistic change, expectation exactly cause. If you expect the other person to change a menu
The zero control over that for one thing, and it's usually a goal
but you're gonna fail at, which is not a great way to go into an interaction. As I keep saying the book is about disentangling. One way to disentangle is complete estrangement. However, you say that there
some limits to a strange man. It may not solve everything. What do you mean by that? You know it seems like moving
away from somebody or not seeing them. Any more could be a perfect solution to it
difficult relationship, but what often happens is that, because human beings carry the pattern
of their relationships inside down, I mean that's how we grow up. That is how we psychologically mature, is by
Internalizing interactions internalizing other people's feelings, and,
statements and so forth. We build our personality
from what's on the outside, but once it's in there
we've patterned ourselves. We can move across the country, never see the person again
and still carry around the beliefs about ourselves.
the attitudes toward life
sense of inadequacy aid that may have been our experience with the amount.
immature person. We carry this with us. So when people attempt kind of the geographical sure or the
strange, make sure you have to realise that it may still be necessary to seek out therapy
for all the internalize patterns, the impact of that
on you that you still carry around in a personally inside
myself in the therapy session, I'm not thinking gosh. How can I get them to cut out contact with this toxic parent, I'm not taking that unthinking? How can we get this person to stay connected with themselves
rules and stay in touch with their own needs and feelings, even
while their interacting. With this very difficult person, how can we get them to develop the inner strength and the sense of how
the entitlement to be their own person as they interact with this this image or a person. Let's do the necessary work on the inside
to strengthen the person in their own individuality, not just take them out of
situation and still
then they living all of this inside themselves.
where'd, you find generally works in terms of building up somebody's individuality. I think in
therapy when you go in and you sit with somebody who looks at you.
like you're, really there and treat
you, like your psychologically real, that somebody's in there that you have some
to say, and that
even you're. Smallest feelings are important when you get that experience with somebody, you begin to feel what it's like to feel like an individual
and a lot of people haven't had that, unfortunately, in some of their major relationships, so in therapy you're actually getting the experience of being treated like an individual, you know, but this could happen with a with an excellent spouse. This could happen with a best friend like people
say that how important relationships have been in their lives, and and this is why, because that person recognizes,
your individuality. They relate to you as a person who s there own thoughts and who s her own feelings and they treat you like your real and it helps shoot
sal up yourself. I mean you believe it when somebody sees that in you and so learning how to re conceptualize yourself as an important
individual who is real on the inside and who is just as important as everybody else is like a tremendous antidote to what you are condition to it.
Sat with a mostly immature relationships. The antidote to any ip is an empty
yes, and also your own sense of individual
reality and worthiness yeah, which is developed through interacting with the emotionally mature. Who can
immune. Do you get mental lies? In other words, can see you as somebody who has their own psychological reality that can wake something up in you and you see oh yeah, I have agency as well yeah. I love
that's so well said to wake something up, and yet that is what you hope will happen
there's a lot of times emotionally immature people? Can I put you to sleep it. The site
you're under their spell or its impolite to notice things that there
doing or how you see all
yeah that sensation of being woken up to that is extremely important. Glad you brought that up coming up, lindsey talks about why she encourages which he calls
Eternity gives to forgiveness, handling your own emotionally immature tendencies and how to prevent
in scramble when you're talking to somebody who is not making any attempt to understand what you are actually saying.
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If you have interacted with any ip either right up super deep level, as you know, I haven't been raised
one or two having had an intimate relationship with one or even on a less enmeshed level like working with working for somebody, who's emotionally mature. If you ve had this experience, you may be pissed about it
and you know, I'm just wondering like is forgiveness,
right, move you in your book talk about something you call alternatives to forgiven.
yeah, I think it's really been a big cultural emphasis on forgiveness and I, as I mean some of it, is religious, but I think it's now
of edged over into being
sort of our recommendation for
health and I think it's so unfair because I d
think people have a lot of control
over whether their able to forgive somebody forgiveness, I think, comes to you
when it's ready. When you are ready, I dont think it's something that you
You can healthily push yourself into or aspire to, because forgiveness has to be something that genuinely comes
from the core of yourself, at least in my definition of forgiveness. It's not lip service. It is a almost a reconsideration
of what happened to you to where you can respond with compassion
before the other person, or certainly for understanding that person's limit
stations that made them do that or
Maybe for some people the wholesale religious forgiveness works. Ok, I'm not denying that that happens. I'm just saying
to suggest that as a therapeutic approach or therapeutic method, I dont think is fair to people, and I certainly tell people in there
be that that's not a goal. We have to have right now. There's nothing
to do with them being a good person, has nothing to do with their recovery. What will influence their recovery is their working through the ceilings of what happened
down an owning that as part of their new individuality and when they can do
that later on, they can decide
whether or not forgiveness is in the cards for this relationship. Ok, but it's not something that you can make yourself do so we have to be respectful of that to what would fall into the category of an alternative working through.
HU the ceilings I see. I see, there's some there's not like a cousin of forgiveness that you are recommending instead to cousin to forgiveness. That's a a great question, maybe like under
standing, the roots of it like? If I can understand why you any ip we are giving you yes actually
the understanding or the insight to
Why a person is that way can lead to a kind of compassion now, as a good human being, maybe at some level a part of you could feel that compassion, but there might be this other part. That is nowhere near forgiveness. I mean we, we are a multi,
felicity of parts and our personality sets the way I look at it in a lot of people. Look at it we're not
and homogenous attitude. So, yes, you can have compassion
for them, you can have understanding, can make you laugh.
Angry, but as far as the forgiveness goes again that belongs to a part of you that we probably grow in
that may be, as is another way to look at it, but maybe we Don'T- and I just think that's all right to one of the things you talk about
in the book is handling your own emotionally immature tendencies? How we can you no notice when, where, despite
hang internally externally are both one of the hallmarks reminded me of a story for the time I was out of my first vacation, I overtook with my wife and what my then girlfriend now why,
and I'm were taking off on a plane going to london, and I said it's the me and you show starring me, and
It is definitely an emotionally. It was a joke, but a definitely an emotionally immature thing. You know, like you know, I'm the more important person in the relationship. So what
recommend we were seeing this kind of tendency come up in our own mind it such an
on going
into may and and and in my life, is such an ongoing discovery because half the time. These are things that we have learned either, because we wash your parents
or our own natural developmentally appropriate grandiose city wasn't help to kind of come back down to earth and in
great with other people, and so we can have these pockets of all.
learning or incomplete developmental tasks that pop up, sometimes
and very surprising ways, and so we get to
when we are aware of emotional immaturity, we get to recognise that in ourselves
we get to see it and then ask ourselves. Is that what I think is that all
is that the way I wanna be or whatever, and we can begin to choose, we begin to create
Our sat. What we were trading ourselves every day and maturation goes on the entire lifespan and we get to choose which way we want to go. We always have these pass and from
boss, these potential outcomes and we can decide
what we want to nurture and ourselves and what we doubt give you an example-
I, when I was working on one of my previous books I like to camp out at the dining room table. We have servant open concept house, and so I would camp out at the dining room table.
And when my husband would go in and out of the sliding door to the deck. I would shoot. Dagger looks at him because he was disturbed
me now, I'm the one who's camped out in the middle of the house:
and he brought to my attention and
and his kind reasonable way and
pointed out that I was taking up all the room
and being mad at him for living his life in our house. Alright. Now that was something that I had learned
from my childhood, which was
I learned not to bother anybody know somebody look like they were busy you in a walked on tiptoe around them
that they wouldn't get upset with you. Well, my husband isn't thinking like tat and so he's living his life
and I had to realise: oh, that's a pretty egocentric
position where I'm
city. There were I wanna work and then I'm expecting
and assuming that he's going to honour the fact that I need peace and quiet. So when that was brought to my attention, self reflection started.
Choice started. Do I want to be like this? Do I want to make him feel rotten for opening the door, no
it's not who I wanna be. I get to decide who I am
it'd be if somebody will bring it to my attention. So maybe that's just a personal
example, but there are a million things like that, where it does get brought to our attention, how we want to develop ourselves
in which way we wanna go. Yes, and the good news is that, if you're paying attention, you'll notice that it feels better
to not be an asshole and that's a very positive upward spiral. Absolutely because, after that, when I decided to
my little laptop and go downstairs. I had a light
atta girl, pat on the back, because I'm becoming the kind of person
who, in my own house, is considerate of this person
I love more than anybody else. I feel good too,
It is meaningful. So I'm
acting in line with my principles, and I myself esteem goes up as
living in that way, as opposed to thoughtlessly, are there things that I should have-
few, but fail to ask you any any place. You wanted to go that I didn't bring you theo
I would like to add: is you had mentioned brain scramble earlier
and I do want to mention that there is this thing that happens
emotionally immature people where you end up now
not being able to get your thoughts, stray you're, not able to
say what you really mean. You lose your track of thought you become confused. You start to wonder if, in a maybe you're crazy, the effect on
people by emotionally immature people can-
so disorienting and make you feel so much self doubt and is important for people to know that that's normal. Ok, when you try to maybe talk to an emotionally immature person about something difficult, you should just expect that you may,
fail to get your point across. You may fail to do the kind of argument that you had plan
cause when
somebody is not interested in what you have to say that when they are not listening to you when they're going off on tangent
when there are acting like there's something wrong with you that you're disagreeing with them. That is very disorienting, an destabilizing! Ok, so I just I just want to mention that, because I don't want people
to continue to feel like their weak or can't keep their thoughts straight when they haven't.
counter with an emotionally mature person. I want them to realise that's part and parcel of
their interaction, all way of doing things and
If you're aware of that, then you can change it
and you can go into it again with a simplified, focused outcome in mind where you dont get pulled off into these things that don't make any sense
so. I just want to mention that, because a lot of people don't understand how disk
Bobby Lady, it is one another person is not listening site if a person
to understand what
sang.
doesn't matter how you say it they're gonna, do the work to understand you. If a person doesn't want to understand you, then it doesn't matter what you say.
Because they are not even going to be listening to what you're saying so, it's not like you can ever find the perfect way to approach them
because they're not gonna, be taking it in the first place. So just want people to know that that since
asian of brains
amble or not being able to get your thoughts together not be able to express yourself. That is probably a side effect of
interacting with an emotionally mature person. That's helpful, would you recommend, in terms of prevent
in the brain scramble, and is it helpful utopia,
you're about having a simple goal going into one of these interactions. Would that be helpful in terms of proof
the brain scramble and what would an example of a simple goal be like
say that you want
to tell somebody that you can't host thanksgiving at your house that share that you want tell a parrot or good friend or what,
I work, and you know that this is going to upset them, because you always host thanksgiving, so you're going to have to tell them something they don't want to hear. When you go into that situation, you have to decide what is an achievable outcome. Now they achieve
outcome in that case is not that my mother, my best friend at, are going to be happy with
my decision or they're going to gracefully accept my position because maybe the opposite is going to be true. They are going to be upset they're, going to try to persuade me they're going to try to guilt me, but you can have a goal that can be achieved which might be. I am going to
Tell them what my preferences are, what I'm going to do or not do and then, if they try to persuade me, I will repeat myself:
and if it keeps going on and it seems like we're getting upset with each other, I am going to ask if we can table this and talk about it later. Ok, there's mike aim plan. I met a sad, I'm gonna repeat it
gonna ask the table? It is not going well now unprepared and that's all areas
those things is under my control. I, like that before I let you go. Can you
four might everybody the name of your new book, maybe the names of your prior books, any other resources you ve put out into the world
The new book that's coming out July. First is disentangling from emotionally immature people and it's really geared toward all kinds:
relationships with emotionally immature people, not just with parents its cash at this is light. The fourth book I think
in the series that began with adult children of emotionally immature parents, which was the best cell.
Well that really made the big splash and its neck
well evolution of that. But I do want to mentioned
dan, that if people want to go to my website, to see additional information, they can go there
two linsey gibson p S. Why day side de dot com will bundling tibet and the show now
Meantime was thank you very much always great to talk to you
Thanks for having me there's been a pleasure like was thanks again to lindsey, always great talk to lindsey gibson. Thank you as well to do for listen
really appreciate that go, give us a rating or review that really helps thanks, finally, to everybody who work
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Transcript generated on 2023-07-06.