It's the ten percent happier podcast dan Harris hello, everybody a really has been such an urgent question me personally, one I've been wrestling with for decades and I suspect I'm not alone on this here's. The question can you exercise take care of your body without being driven by shame, self loathing or noxious comparison to other p either in real life or on instagram. My guest today has such a unique and interesting. back on this car lie as a former social worker and psychotherapist, who is now a buddhist teacher. She also used to be a marathon or the type of and who ran marathons and bare feet. She was hard core, but then,

at lyme disease and her body pretty much went into mutiny mode and then, after that, you get paid, the man had a child. All this threw her into a really tricky head space. One you're gonna hear her discuss in this very candid and very funny interview she's come to some hard won, fascinating and deeply useful insights about how to strike this balance between taken care of your body and staying sake in this conversation. We talk about some practices. She's come up with for that moment, when you're getting out of the shower, you see yourself in the mirror and engage in a festival of self judgment surprising things that happened, one she was forced to stop exercising a counter intuitive mindfulness practice for people who Our regular exercises when and why you should purposely do things that you know are bad for you. Why we resist being in our bodies. Why? That's? Ok and how to lower the bar on this contemplative cliche

about giving it up, and aid. body, related buddhist practice that she finds tat, delete not useful before we dive into today's episode as you know, we are currently in the middle of a series of episodes about tat, health and fitness and to help you take what you're learning in the series from the theoretical to the practical you can check out the healthy habits challenge over on the ten percent happier app sanford psychologist Kelly, mechanical and meditation teacher elects a santos whose amazing have team. On this project with us the seventh day, healthy habits, challenges open now over on the ten percent happier app and you can join the challenge any time through june? Twenty second just download the ten percent happier app. Where were you get your apps or by visiting ten percent dot com. That's all one word spelled out if you already have the app just open it up and follow the instructions to join and if you're not already a ten percent happier subscriber you can join us by starting a free trial

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appstore or google play or visit, try, dot, imprint, app dot com, slash happier to learn more. Carl, I welcome back to the show. Thank you dan Harris, I'm a huge amount of yours, it's great to have you back on. I do want to get to this question of the way dj the producer of this episode. In effect, the serious has framed this greece is. Can you take care of your body without aiding yourself? Can you do this without lapsing into what somebody poetically, as called these subtle aggression of of improvement. I really want to take a deep dive. at with you, and I know that you have a lot to say about it, but let me just start with like kind of a life update, because since the last time you've been on the show and since the last time I've seen you you ve had a baby, so how's that going, and maybe you can say a little bit about what impact being a new mom and having been

it has had on your relationship to your own body. Oh tons, yeah. Yes, I had a baby and his delightful. He is seven and a half months old and I love being a mom. I didn't think it was going to be bad, but it's way better than I thought it's gonna be which is critical, but up until having a baby, I was feeling pray karami. I think the last time that we did this I was talking about having lime and it just got worse after the recording and then, when I was pregnant, it was like very intense. It was kind of like up and and up and down, and there were definitely days when I couldn't get at it I wasn't really able to work rules I believe- and I kind of like stopped exercising, because I couldn't

in item was I trying every possible thing that I could find her heel and find a way out of it. But Then, for some reason, when I gave birth everything changed, I was like feeling so much better and not all the way better but functional again in a way that, before I couldn't think straight because of how bout I felt and then after he was born. Not only could I think straight, I was just like so in such a state of like ease and leaf and love? I think the feeling of love towards the baby helped a lot, so it made your line. Symptoms improve, or at least it was co occurring. And as I understand it, it also had an impact on sir, how you feel about your body, and I wonder about that, because you know I've lived with a pregnant person before and it did bring up

lot of. You know like putting on the weight and then having everybody ask if you take it off the baby weight and all that stuff it began, its pretty tends to disavow intense vs, oh yeah. How it helped you yeah. Well, I remember when I was probably in my first trimester and seeing it wasn't like. I had a baby bump yet, but I did like I was getting. I was gaining weight and exactly the places in my body that I've already self conscious about, like my muff, in top, like my little pooch in the frantic like my boots,. so like I was looking in the mirror and like watching my mind to scrutinise my body and realizing how absurd it was, because my body was doing all these things in an effort to create a human being. I like making a human with my body

and so to jump to the conclusion that I'm doing something wrong, I should be eating. So much should be exercising more with just absurd, and how awesome is it that my body is due this thing and I dont have to figure out how to do it. It just knows how to do it shouldn't be something that we celebrate instead of get ashamed about, and so I started to really shifted. My thinking about my body from that moment on and then the whole thing you're talking about with people asking yes, a few people have asked me have you lost all your weighed and it doesnt offend me cause. I just think it's funny. Actually. Now because I and so much self inquiry around this. I feel like there's this attitude that were supposed to go back to being the person we were for we are pregnant and there's no way that I would want to do that. I don't wanna be that person again, not that, like she was bad or something, but this is better. You know, like I just feel like I've gone through. This really are

the right of passage and my mom now and I should be of my mom body and like yeah mom gene should be in fashion that super cool that mom jeans are in fashion there. It is, to be a man, why is it not cool to be a mom? It's like beautiful. This is what creates life should be celebrated so, like the question should be, have you lost? oh you're, pregnancy, which it should be like how much weight You still have now been suffering that you now in my back yard, just not making it a problem. I was also really soup eyes him after I gave birth. My milk came in like boobs turn into playboy boobs when the milk first comes in, like your boobs become what people try to get when they get a big job, which is like interest

to me cause like that piece of it. We celebrate a door and find sexy, but the rest of it, for some reason, is an anyway. That's that's kind of an aside may not have anything to do with us, but well did give us a gesture. a boot. So you don't. Let's I am there, that's yeah! I didn't I and you'd be done that day and always always my dad was a breast cancer doctor. So it's a you know. I come by it honestly, oh good! Alright, while you can use that excuse to talk about bibs more, I dunno, if I could get away with it, if it wasn't with you, but it's so blatantly. Okay, so you said that you had this insight a really. I think. If I'm hearing you correctly useful insight

at there was this bodily provocation mid pregnancy of the places you had already been worried about expanding and you realize well. How am I going to judge myself for this? My body's doing this incredible thing. I'm just curious. A lot of people. Listen to this may not be pregnant. How scalable is that inside yeah? Well, it's it's scalable in the sense that all of our bodies are incredible, and just As for not creating a wife with their bodies doesn't mean it's not a miracle In so many ways there are so many things that our bodies do, that we don't understand and that we don't control with our thinking mines like what the How is the endocrine system doing? How does it know how to do that and there are like more neurons in your brain than like items on the planet, I don't know what the actual which are but there's a lot of nerve and

there are forming these connections that are very intricate and there's an intelligence to the body that is way different from ours. article kind of intelligence and way beyond what we could comprehend with our thinking minds, and so there are miracles happening in our bodies all the time, and I think we tend to think about our bodies in a pretty shallow way. Generally speaking, we look at it. bodies and we judge them based on their appearance and it's real sad that that's what we see in that's the part that we scrutinised Is there so much that our bodies are doing for us all the time that is so amazing and beautiful and unique to each person and Yet we stand in front of a mere after taking a shower, and we just kind of judge and judge and judged and judge, and what would it be like if

We stood in front of the mirror and appreciated how incredible our bodies are and what they do for us the time, no matter what our level of physical capability is, there's still infinite things that our bodies are doing for us all. The time amen sounds completely reasonable Same add very hard to do given the years and years of cultural conditioning we ve all endorse. And never mind. What's been handed down to us through the generations yeah well, and that's why I think that it's a practice. I think that's why it took something kind of big for me to I'm not saying that I'm yeah I don't judge my body anymore, but I think it took a big thing like getting pregnant. To make me do some sick shifting around make habits about how I talk to my of about my body, and so I think it's a practice in actual practice could be

instead of looking in the mirror at all? Taking that same time We would be doing that while brushing our teeth or what It is worth doing while standing in front of the mare and thinking about the things that our bodies do for us, that we appreciate. So that's a practice that I love it, because I have this moment every day was the day when I shower, where I'm telling off and semi conscious or sometimes conscious of this noxious dialogue, happening, or maybe it's just a model of this happening. It's kind of just like an aesthetic critique. You know, based on nothing having to do with actual health, it's just like air. I dont like the look of my belly, especially as compared to the way it looked twenty years. Now. I know that I'm healthy, and yet that still is happening, and so can I just

use that moment as a mindfulness bell to wake up and be like yes, but the endocrine system is amazing or who knows what the pancreas is up to right now? Yes, so you could do the thing of thinking about something totally different from what your body like psych, that's one pact. Another practice could be just becoming aware of the fact that your comparing your body to the body that you had twenty years ago and then say actually I'm this person now what about celebrating that? do you wanna, be Thirty year old dan now like you wanna, be you fit fifty thousand year old and a few other treaty, but the day, and that you are now and there's something different about that. But it's not bad. No like culturally. Maybe it's bad that you have more on your body or whatever it is or less muscle, but are those your values

no, unlike we, should celebrate age more than we do. I think we're really entered youth some reason and we don't really celebrate, older at all, because I don't know But we don't and- and I think that we could totally changed the narrative around that intentionally and we can start within ourselves like well. Actually, I have accumulated a lot of wisdom. My body has done a lot for me and its showing that through time, by the way that its looking and there's nothing bad about that, there's something really quite beautiful about this body. and what its had to go through and all the things that it's done for me and the way that it looks as a result. And then another thing I wanted to say is that when you are actually in the shower before you get out. That, too, could be a practice of preceding and caring for your body

if you're, washing your body and, like you touch each part of your body when you take a shower and you can touch it with care and appreciation and love rather than I dunno. Usually we just think of whatever in the shower I dunno when you think about in the shower, but it's probably dirty and weird Your body with love sounds dear the end and weird on one level can reminds me of that old joke about masturbation being acts with someone, I love Oh, my god, you repeated again so happy about this part cannot already did I say, reservation and our lives their pursuit of now. Ass. It always think of this as parties, the sequel really bring it out car? I don't know what it is but do at midnight I mean. I know I really get easy masturbation good at that eyes, but nobody can see me, but our problem

the bright red right now, you're, the only one yeah but anyway, yeah well touching yourself with love in the shower, doesn't have to be dirty. It can be beautiful and a gesture of respect to the body which the body is worthy of a lot of respect, and we don't give it that we tend to just scrutinize it and feel ashamed of it. In preparing for this episode, you had a couple of conversations with the aforementioned dj dj cashmere, that's his real name. Everybody love that name who is the architect of this series, we're doing about how to get fit and stay, At the same time- and I see the notes from these conversations- cause DJ sends them to me and in the first conversation you said something that I loved and then in the second conversation, you were a little surprised that you had said it, but I'm going to read it to you, because I really liked it and you can walk it back or disavow it or tell me not to include this in the episode. But after you had this realization, while you're pregnant, you came to the following

We fuck everyone for making me hate that part of myself the idea which I think was just sign or a part of me that felt resentful towards myself fur buying into the idea that I should be scrutinising and hating my body in a very particular way that wasn't mine. You know those not my set of standards or ideals, and those voices made it so that I wasn't really listening to my body and a tuning to it and what it in particular needed. Just kind of applying these societal rules about how my body should be and how much exercise I should get and what I should be eating and it made it so that I lost touch with my body and didn't have a good relationship with my body and it's been a long process of trying to come back to it.

Relationship with my body and learn how to listen to it in a way that feels carrying and respectful and not fearful and so yeah, I guess, some resentment fur all of those messages being there. And for me, having bought into them, some level. Actually, it's not an esoteric level. I can sound like a varied, not buddhists, thing to say, because we're supposed to be generating loving kindness for everybody, no matter how difficult they are. I read into that- was really like a spirit of not literally fuck everybody, but have you know this is just a really violent thing, we're doing to ourselves in this culture by inculcating ourselves with this notion that were insufficient as designed? Why did you like that? Dick? Because it was just a reverent? Is that what you liked about it or yeah? I mean that's what I've liked about you from the first. time meeting before we never even met the first time I saw you give a dharma talk when I was on retreat and behaving being

trade and then all of a sudden, you got up there and you were so irreverent like oh yeah, that's what this is about. it's ok, I like your reverence. So there's that and So I feel that to you know they were wasting so much time toiled in self judgment and and by the way we don't lived in enclosed systems. You know so that my self laceration has external consequences. I have this very embarrassing story. In my mind, having gone to spin class with my wife and me, having said something about the teacher who was a female about her body, and to totally and it wasn't like sexual with more just like a judge. How about we know

whether she can fort whether she was thin enough or something like this. There's like five or six years ago and bianca rightly was not cool with that, and you know I was just projecting my shit onto this poor spent teacher and, of course, making bianca feel like shit cause. She was correctly intuitive that I was, of course applying those standards to her and so yeah there's just a there's, just ripples of negativity here, and so I feel some of that resentment too yeah yeah. Now I can totally relate to this cause. It's not even your voice saying these things about what your body should look like. It's not even my voice. It's I don't even know where this came from and it it's such you're right it such an expenditure of mental energy, and it makes it so that we aren't as available to each other and we're looking at other people in a very particular way and judging other people or comparing ourselves to other.

people and spending our time doing that, instead of just being with people and being open to them and really listening to their men appreciating their uniqueness, it's pretty deep and that so that's why a lecture! Your quote: let's just go back to this exhortation that you have given us, which is too Pritchett, your body again easier, said than done and with things that are easier said than done. We need practices. We need shit. We can do on the regular to counter programme to require So what do you recommend on that too? So I was forced to stop running, and I had this thing where I ran pretty much every day: until a few years ago, and I started feeling pretty happy. You know I'm a person who is it

I'm a teacher and I go on a lot of meditation, treats and meditation retreat I'll be running every day and it was almost like. I couldn't really feel as has while meditating on us, I went from I run in the morning, which I knew was. Something that I needed to look at, because my ability to be present shouldn't necessarily be so dependent? on whether or not I did in the morning, and there is clearly something that I was not having to feel by going from IRAN. In the morning I was getting some energy out. I was moving something through so that it would be easier for me to set with myself later. the day and When I couldn't run anymore, I had to sit with all those feelings and I would not have chosen to do it all at once, like that in a second out.

Share what I think I would have done more of if it hadn't been forced on me like that. But as a result, I had to be with a lot of a ton of shame, a lot of anger and a self doubt, and this idea that I can't really trust my body. I can't trust my impulses. If I don't do this rotten, and I'm just gonna be lazy and fat, and it's gonna be a slippery slope. I'm going I have no motivation and I'm gonna, you know just be a slob, and so Having to confront all those feelings First of all, made me see that I could handle those feelings and that it was ok for me to feel them.

And second of all and made it so that those feelings were not dictating everything that I did and I didn't have to act on the belief that I couldn't handle those feelings. I didn't have to have this idea that I had to get rid of those feelings or control. My body control. My feelings in some way before I could move on with my day and that to me is what I'm really is it's not dependence on circumstances this out dependent on what I do You were saying per se and my exercise regimen. It's the abyss need to be available in present, with whatever is going on for me, no matter what and I feel freer as a result of not being able to do my morning run anymore, even though it doesn't look like I'm free, because I can physically do other things that are used to do, but I actually do feel frere now not to say that I would have chosen I have to go through that and not to say that I wouldn't

running now. If I could run again, because I would, as I love running, but I think I would approach it more from a place of joy and gratitude, then a place of fear and self regulation and not trusting my body, the practice. I think that I would recommend, for people would be on a day where it doesn't feel like too much of a force for yourself. Don't do your their size routine. When you normally, would you know you? Don't you don't have to make them another thing that you have to force up on yourself. You know like no. I can't Noah their sizing today, because we can approach that with the same kind of really intense attitude, but just gently If there's a day where you're kind on the fence, maybe it's raining you I wanna go outside and to say, ok, Actually. What if I make today really about being with the feelings that I would have to feel? So if I didn't exercise- and just seeing what that is and really making a point

setting a meditating or pausing taking some time, not distracting ourselves from whatever it is, that's coming up for us in that space I have a symbolic, cautious, but just on a very technical for Just so people remember you used to run marathons barefoot, some of them and a more you were were intense about it. No, you got lime and now you're, sufficiently tired and uncomfortable with eighty that you can't run any more my recapitulating, this basic facts correctly, yeah, mostly my knees, mine, start work anymore. The way they to adjust to put up fine point on this you're, not saying we shouldn't the exercise or eat well or anything like that. You're just saying we should look at what's fuelling that

absolutely. We should look at what's feeling that and also there's no recipe for wellness. That is the same across the board for everybody. We can't even say, generally speaking, that everybody should do half an hour of exercise a day or everyone should eat this amount of. Salad, a it's different for everyone. I think it's me finally, about listening to our bodies, messages and really trusting that, because for some people The right amount of exercise could be just like moving your arm up and down. All bodies are so different yeah, and it really depends on what point in your life you're at my dad just run marathons my mom

as an avid runner as well, and now they live in an assisted living facility, and so their exercise looks very different and it's you know some of us have able bodies and others of us don't so I absolutely agree but again to be clear. You we should take care of our body. No matter, what's going on with the body to the best of our ability, but, as you said to dj it's it's healthy, well, an exercise, but it's not healthy to just be eternally driven by aversion. Yeah right I think that ultimately, wellness is more about our relationship with ourselves. Then it is about what our routine is and what our eating habits are. I think, for me at least I've noticed is that I feel a lot better. Now overall across my body, still has lime and there stood a ton of fatigue, but I wouldn't I am saying this out loud now for the first time, because I dont think I

until now. I dont think that I would trade what I have now for I had when my body didn't have lyme disease, because I feel better on a much deeper level than I did before I mean, I think, there's a reason why the buddha talked about letting go so much yeah. I bet the buddha never went for runs and he didn't know for while he had to walk a lot at me, honestly, I'm not being facetious me rather other than horses. There were many other means of transportation. He had taken this valve poverty, yours along those lines and he walked amida time in his life, so he was moving the body yeah yeah. He tell you its known about the bitter that he had backed problems, which kind of makes me happy here because there A part of me that wants to believe that, if I just I just my attitude towards my,

and just meditate enough, and I have the right perfect relationship mind and body than all of my physical problems will be solved, but the buddha had back problems and he was fully aligned, there's a way that we can find ourselves sliding into another, a form of making ourselves responsible bodies in a way that we don't have to be through meditations like if I'm not gonna, run others meditate all the time, and that will be the way I heal myself and maybe to a certain extent that is useful and that has helped some of my physical stuff, but to make it like. I can fix all my problem. Meditation puts an enormous amount of pressure on me to do that perfectly and then meditation just becomes the new running.

Coming up car a lie, talks about when and why you should purposely do things you know or bad for you and the relationship between your instincts and your meditation practice. now. Your ideas dont have to wait. Now they have breathing? They need to come to life del technology, and intel are creating technology that loves ideas, loves standing, your business, evolving, your passions, we push what technology can do, so great ideas can happen I now find out how to bring your ideas to life at del dot. Com. Slash welcome to now.

your milkshakes costs way less than before. I the want to save way more. It's a membership, that's better than your civil rights, have been so much more like pizza straight to your door and cold beers that you can pour potato chips from your neighbors to watch your team. Sport join uber. One members save an uber and uber eats forget that stuck in your head, zero dollar delivery fee, a percentage off discounts subject to order minimums and participating stores, taxes and other fees to apply alcohol in select cities pointless to purchase. I just want to go back to the question of this balance that I'm hearing, I think you call for because on some level we are responsible for our bodies and we get we're not responsible for every aspect of it. As Joseph gold steam, the meditation teacher would set the systems of the body unfold lawfully. We just don't make the laws at which I love so yeah this

so much of our bodies that we dont control and yet you know there are levers we can pull like eating this certain way and exercising, and so that's where it becomes tricky. Because how do we exercise our agency in zones without having that come from a place of aversion or self aggression. I want to hear what you do with us. at some point. It's not good bye, you wanna, go yeah no, no, no, no go you go please. I am a huge proponents of trying the things that you're not supposed to do until you really find why you're not supposed to do them and you so find out why you wanted to do them. So bad. Go eat that whole bag of potato chips budgeting will be present for it and see what it is that you like about it and what you don't like about it or like

make yourself go for that run. Make yourself run as much as you want to make yourself run and see what it is that feels good about that. And see what it is that you hate about it and but just be really honest with yourself about all those things we ve learned through experience, we don't learned through telling ourselves what we shouldn't do cause we never. you're out why we should or should do in that way, we have to really be there for the result. Of all of our actions, in order to really understand, I think this whole practice is about experimentation and seeing what works and what does work and we're not gonna know that unless we give ourselves the freedom to play an experiment and make it more fun than it in a we, don't have to do it perfectly the first time. If we could do that, then we wouldn't need to be doing this pact

Is it all we would already know, and so were here to just learn? I mean, I think, that whatever you're about to tell me about like the ten sleeves of orioles you in the morning, like I say, do that but be present for it and just a really see what it is is making you want to do that, because there's probably a lot of information there for you about needs that and been met and you're, trying to me some way with the orioles by this outworking. It's funny exam. On the one hand, I've come a long way have done quite a bit of work on both exercise and diet and underbidding. All of that is just like your attitude toward your body, and yet you know their such a crust of conditioning on top of this. This is not

easy thing to do is multi year, if not multi, lifetime project. In my experience, I'll stop there just for a second does that sound right? You yeah. I mean it could be, but it could that's we don't know the guy. We don't know how long it could be and it could be really short actually for me beat having been forced to stop running. A lot faster. It was a. There is a big transformation that happened in a short period of time. For me with that which I wouldn't have guessed was possible, and even I dont think that its necessarily the case that just because we spent our whole lives talking to ourselves. One way about our body and being negative towards ourselves of means that it's gonna take that same amount of time to undo that pattern. That's an excellent point, europe spring to mind- is probably mangling this. So with apologies to Daniel gilbert, who wrote the book stumbling upon happiness

I haven't read many many years, but I believe one of the things he says in there is that people who have had like catastrophic accidents there's like a level of happiness that those people have because the surrender is non negotiable. As so. I can see how a set of sudden things happen with you in it led to big psychological, such spiritual advances. that are harder with me, because I've been lucky and my? body is a highly functioning at least to date. That makes it yeah yeah and I give been lucky in the traditional sense of the word, because we think about wellness as like you know, and of course, to some degree it helps like to have a healthy body and that it I'm not to have a chronic oh or whatever, but there's a very deep kind of while that I think we're trying to talk about here it goes beyond all of that and its more to do with our hearts and minds in the freedom there. Yes, I do

it just been put a pin in it right now before I say more about my own practices, I do want this interview to end, or at least to include some really practical steps. People can take to get to that deeper level of wellness, so just pointing out of the park with that yeah. So, let's yeah, let's come back to that and now, let's about your habits, let's unpack unpack, so you are right here on the show back in, like twenty nineteen, I believe, might have been twenty twenty. I interviewed evelyn aaa who's, the one of the two people who came up with something called intuitive eating, and you can hear if you listen to that episode, we will put a link in the show notes. You can hear my mind change in real time because

up until that point, I had been incredibly militant about sticking to certain diets and this sort of punitive death march style exercise regime. They often changed the diet, so they exercise regimes, but there is always something or often something, and you basically ready you know like got me to see that I was carrying out other people's agenda, not my home and like underneath. All of that was some aversion and trying to conform to external standards and not listening to my body as the number one source of information, and so I've been working one on one with her free years. You know I don't have to talk to. That much anymore, because my attitude towards food is much saner and same with exercise. Somebody were from

My who is no longer with us anymore, ernie miss grace livingston it. She was working for me at the time that I met evelyn she passed away, but grace was the one who introduce me to evelyn. I think that was a nut so subtle agenda averse sheet. She saw that I had some unhelpful thought patterns and behaviors around this seven engineered this encounter with evelyn and grace gave me this advice once while she was dying of cancer, that I share when exercising maybe just say the following word in my mind once in a while, which is gratitude now I am you know, because I'm so allergic to cliche. My initial response to that was like, oh god, you know, like tat blessed, but I do know is for me a lot of these practices are just, as you know, about getting over myself and just doing the thing that may seem cheesy to me, because these practices work, and so

I try one on exercising to adjust nuno wake up to the fact that as a crime credibly lucky in the conventional sense to have this body that does work and to use that to counter programme against some of the knock. this stuff. That's driving media hit my numbers in any given work out, I'm doing as opposed to just enjoying the work on being grateful that my bodies working for now. Similarly with food, like can I there and taste the food and notice when my bodies fallen. Stop eating then set of worrying about sticking to some diet. So I am much and all this, and yet I still see you know that I can. My game, for any number of reasons and just get back into my old patterns, and so I am better but far from perfect yeah. What that sounds great, I think it's very funny and cool that you are allergic to what did you call it cliche,

cliche and yet you for a living interview, meditated is and high rest for encountering whew at every turn of your professional career. That to me, is like you, kind of are doing the thing of exploring the way that I was talking about explore. You know if you think you hey something then like, try it and see invaded so much and but obviously are attracted in some to an otherwise you wouldn't be doing this as your career and so like. If you like it, then do you like about it and what do you like about it in anyway? I'm kind of going off in a little bit of a tangent, but it sounds like you. Ve really benefited from doing the work that you are doing and meeting these people through the podcast and

all of the aspirations you ve been doing and it's gotten under your skin united earn. It's like really deeply shifted your habits and that's taken practice on your part to, but your willingness to do that self examination, I think, is where that all starts, and so you have shifted a bunch of habits because you're as much as you'll make fun of will. You are willing to look at it and think about it and take it seriously. Yards a hundred percent correct Wu Wu. I often take you mean, like far out esoteric claims. I shall have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is sloppy sentimentality bathos. Ok, I wish separate those two things here so like you asked earlier, why was I so attracted to your fuck? Everyone quote it's because I like the irreverence on top of the really practical, related wisdom

that lies beneath the stuff that there's a way in which this ancient wisdom, which feels like totally small tee True to me, is delivered with a lot of accoutrements. Sentimentality that I am not down with yeah and its extra its extra? Yes, it's extra it yeah, it's not at the heart of what was being said there yeah. I appreciate you pointing that out, because if that extra stuff drives a bunch of people away and isn't relate above for everybody anyway, I think we're going off a level here, but we are talking about you and your habits and how they shifted, and so now it's you practice or is there one around you're eating your exercise, your body, that kind of thing for it's intuitive eating for exercise. It's a little less

you know I mean I try to remind myself to be grateful as a way to counter programme against the pushing and striving in self laceration and self. Judging comparison, that is there for me, My only point is that I've done a lot of work and I could feel absent the moment where I am forced to let go, which is of course coming, but you don't know when I can feel that it is a multi, your process because the conditioning is so deep in our culture, at least for me, it's not like. I can start my fingers do these practices that I might lump on we're kind of a self compassion or of friendliness towards yourself. I have not been able to do him for a few years and be able to be like yup might draw problem solved that can Please be a helpful way of looking at it because it could be that we feel like if it could happen right now and I could be free of all this negative self talk immediately. Then? What

I doing wrong. You know it late so to relax and see it as a multi year. Project or process could be a better way to think about it, but ultimately the truth is. We have no idea how long it's going to take taken. That's fine and we not necessarily have to think about a timeline at all, but if it helps to think about it that way than that's probably good to lift off a little bit of the pressure, but also just to be open to what might happen and what new piece of insight my pop up and oftentimes something my pop up. That appears at first like it, it's an obstacle or a problem, and it could turn into the start of. really big learning or insight away there. The things that happen with my body became really useful for me ultimately, and maybe that's one thing that would be helpful for a lot of us to hear

that when something interrupts our routine, that we have and eating or exercising to be open to that as a potential source of insight This, I can't do it. I would normally do so what Does that mean that I have to feel now or will. I have to do differently and adapt to an might not make me grow, so that could be a daily practice to like just being open to it, because in the past I would wake up in its like. Oh it's free outside I better go from I run anyway and just said opinion I wouldn't adapt. But what? If I, was gentle around myself, like oh, ok! Well, what? If I didn't, run rented Maybe it would be nice to honour my bodies with for comfort and not just jump to the conclusion that it's gonna be a slippery slope and I'm gonna

The way on the couch for the rest of my life. Another thing that I realized through this process was that we as a human species, think of ourselves, as somehow above nature or that we should be above nature, and it's not true, and it's not bad to be one of the many species of the world is not a bad thing to be connected to the earth than to be part of the earth and it's not a bad thing, we have primal instincts and impulses. Those are all just different kinds of intelligence, though we have historically not honoured, are respected. so my bodies desire to be comfortable, isn't something that I should be suspicious up. It's something that is a deep kind of lying, first safety and comfort and

it points towards self compassion in a way that, if I listen to it, I can actually develop more self compassion. When I listen to the voice seen? The ways that I, was taught to just not trust my instincts and the more I practice meditation. The more I see that this practice is a very instinct jewel practice. our instincts on a very deep level are trying to move towards goodness trying to move towards an open heart and the most fundamental instincts. So we have led us in that direction, and so practice is all about instincts in that regard. So do not trust are in This means that we are constantly trying to fend off or get rid of who we were deeply are, and we are coming

at it from a place of feeling like we're already flawed and we have to fix ourselves. But actually, I think that we're getting, back who we really are in which were learning how to trust that we're seeing that. Actually we don't need to change. We just need to come into ourselves, are full selves instead of viewing are wives as this big project of like, Doing my trauma and, like you know, we talk about original sand and we have to be constantly fighting against that. I think we could viewed in a totally different way- that much more relaxed and trusting of life coming up car talks about what our inner drills joint- is actually trying to do for us how deep self forgiveness can go and a body related buddhist practice that she finds to be completely unhelpful.

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at the low rate of twenty nine- ninety nine per line- u s cellular built for us terms, apply visit? U s cellular dot com for details, we value human connection with people or distractions us cellular built for us visit. Your us cellular authorized agent located at eighteen. Fifty two decorator pike in athens. I have two questions, I'll, throw them both out there. You can take whichever one you want, and I can remind you of the second one later unless you want to tackle them both one is some people might hear what you just said and say what doesn't the body respond and mine respond well to like severe testing in pushing it to its limits and isn't or a voice in our heads says. Don't do that you know sit on the couch eat. The doritos did take carry yourself when when it actually it's you know it's coming to the ball. Dressed up as self compassion, but it actually laziness or fear whatever, and so isn't there that all areas too, and then the

their question. I have is you're, saying all this stuff about like coming into or listening to yourself Getting underneath all this conditioning, that's driving us often in an unexamined way toward self improvement, etc, etc. But, like ok, yes, that all sounds right but how? How do I do that yeah? Those are two big questions I dunno, if either of them is something you want to tackle. Those are awesome questions, and these are both questions that I'm constantly practicing with right now, and so I appreciate the questions and I won't be able to fully answer them, but what I have learned so far my practices with this first question about okay, the body can benefit from a lot of discipline sometimes- and I think yes, but now that I

the kid. I wouldn't want to say anything to myself that I wouldn't want to say to him. You know like if I was telling him that he needed to go for a run whenever it would have to be from a place of love, not from the self fledgling place that it was coming from for me, so if I am going to be really really discipline with myself. If it's coming from a place of not trusting myself, fear self hatred self doubt, then it's not going to lead to the kind of freedom, then I'm seeking it might do something to shift it's some things for me, but ultimately, the habit of that way of talking to myself is going to have to be a habit that gets undone because the means are not justifying the ends there. Does that make sense? Yes, so the body does respond world.

who pushing it to its limits and there's some discipline we need. But if the Innovation of the galvanizing force is self hatred and that's unexamined. Then the fruit of the poison tree is gonna, be poisoned. Yeah had this pop up in my head. A lot when I was on my long retreat, the dharuma what not let you awaken through self regulation. It just doesn't work out Why you know you can only get so far with awakening through forcefulness cause, it's a different kind of energy from that kind of release that we're seeking and the release is much more of a receptive, open, relaxed, softening and so a for pushing that's the opposite kind of energy.

and so we ultimately will need to release sack wrap in order to get there and it was a softening for me when I was still running- it was a softening for me to allow myself to take my run every day, but if I was gonna force myself to stop running that would have been too harsh. So I. To go through a long period of time where I was aware that my relationship exercise was unhealthy, but it would have been to forceful and too harsh and adding even more stress. If I just made myself stop those habits, so we have to kind of gently see where the openings are and a first for some paid a time. We need to allow ourselves to be doing the things that make us feel safe. We just do that and we live in that place of safety until it feels there's another opening where we can really somewhere else. Does that answer that first question the summer I gave before I think is still still

after your clarification that yeah just look at what's? What's underneath? What's motivating, you really? Is it because your grave so you have this body and you want to keep it functioning well, so that you can live longer and continue to help other people be happy or is it because you're trying to look like the dude on the cover of men's health magazine yeah? I am like totally trying to look like that. Dude yeah. I wish okay and then the second question Can you remind me yeah just you know, you talked about freedom and liberation and getting out of your head in coming in your body in aligning with what you know. Nature is driving us toward goodness and all this stuff that can sound like very attractive, but also completely unobtainable yeah. I think that we all get tastes all the time. Otherwise I don't know, but I think life would be a lot harder. We Ah,

know what it's like to feel safe in our bodies and to trust our bodies, because we were all day when I look at my baby, that baby does have any inner conflict about his needs? You know like he is just totally solid there had when he and something he knows he wants it. He makes it clear and it gets more complicated. Older. We get in the more layers of self judgment that we put on ourselves, but it that deep, knowing entrusting are of ourselves, is there and its accessible and we know it because we know that it doesn't feel good to judge ourselves. We feel the pain of that and we know what that it does feel good to love ourselves and we feel when that is there to. If we look really closely at the minute

of our movements throughout the day. Our mental movements are physical movements. We start to see that everything that we do and think and say and fear is a, meant towards comfort in some way. Even we shift in our chair or china. Aviate some pan and move towards some good feeling said. There's this really really. A plea, ingrained habit of loving ourselves there and even the self regulation itself. Even the self criticism is an attempt to feel better if an attempt to latch onto control so that we can feel better ultimately- and it's not doing it for us in the moment- is making us less comfortable in the moment, but the ideas that we will be more comfortable in the future. So it's trying to help it's not so much.

that we have this big beast to contend with that. We have to get rid of its more that we start to see that the beast is actually trying to serve us. We don't have to come out our experience from a place of total mistrust, because it's all trying to help us with this freely deep kind of forgiveness, that's possible and that I've started to really taste and my practice lately this forgiveness to ourselves fur having felt so responsible for feeling bad for taking up this burden of being responsible for every time. We feel bad and everything that goes wrong in our lives, and it's not our fault, it's possible to move towards

It's a really really deep kind of freedom on. We start to see that and release that burden of responsibility and to trust ourselves. Okay, so, let's get in our remaining monitor, let's get his practical as possible. I think we ve answered the question that question that DJ posed, which is, can you take it of your body without hating yourself. The answer is yes, you can. What are the practices and we talked about a few practices earlier like them, you get out of the shower and you're in the mirror. But what is some practices is that we can do that will continue to kind of not just industry. action, the more we can give our bodies attention throughout the day the better kind attention so like I said whenever we move we're trying to get more comfortable, but if we pay more attention to our bodies during the, we can see all the times that we're not in

bodies and were leaning into the future and we're not comfortable. So one practice is too As many times as you remember, too, in a day, just ask yourself: how can I make my body a little bit more comfortable, Right now, and in that moment we might see how we ve been waning into the future. You I've been sitting on my computer, for three hours and I really have to pee, and it would be a really kind thing for me to take a break away look out the window go to the bathroom, and so we can do that five times a day. We could do that twenty five thousand times a day How can I make my body a little bit more comfortable right now, an end given moment. This is a super, easy practice to do and it's super accessible and it's really. Nice

cause. Usually right now I could legs sit back a little bit more. Unlike relax, my shoulders a little bit. I can feels like some tension in my feet that I can just kind of soften and I can let my body be supported by the chair underneath me, there's like a little bit more holding myself up right now than I need to be doing, and I can just rest back. So that's one. Do you have tension in your body right now down that you can release always and to say that I like that allowed, because one of the contemplative cliches that gets tossed around a lot is getting out of your head it into your body and this Does that yeah, when what we need are reminders right to tune into something below the level of thought and why I think this is deeply relevant to this conversation and I'll. Try. This explanation in please correct me here is that

one of the things. I believe your arguing is that if you're listening to your body, you can make much saner decisions about what Do I need d right now. How much do I need to eat? What foods make me feel good? What foods make me feel bad? Similarly, with exercise you know, am I pushing myself to hit some are terry number, but you know number of miles, run speed at which everyone knows well whatever or my listening to my body as what what types of exercise feel good and what should I do today or the next day. They know how much exercise do I need to yes that cleanse of great cardio work out can feel good and then we should indulge, but

we doing it for reasons that have nothing to do with with a body needs, and so, if we could just phone the skill of listening to our bodies and ve, just given us away to to as the cliche than we can vector toward more sanity as we navigate our room, you know wellness journey or whatever anyway, that all make sense exactly yet it's exactly said some stuff there I side said took a job. We could just be on this package you're. So yourself the end. I don't know enough promise you yeah, but you would love just the dancer Oh yeah me anyway. My whole life is just the dance. Show ya, get you better with the audience of my wife and my son and they're pretty tired at ashcombe. That's why audience now and

one day, will get you on the cover men's health magazine. It's going to be a non traditional cover, any other practices that come to mind yeah. So one thing I think, that's just important for people to know when coming into their bodies are trying to turn and were like? That is just there's a reason that we don't do that already in others, a reason that word not already just hanging out in bodies all the time. There are a lot of things happening in our bodies that feel uncomfortable really bad out of control chaotic trauma held in our bodies, there's chronic pain, there's pain, don't even know about tension that were holding. We don't even know about it's, not just the process of like I'm in my body now it's wonderful, everything's, just rainbows and

There's a lot going on. That is very deeply difficult to meet and I just want a name that is normal if it's hard and to face the process of coming inward with a deep kind of respect, yourself. An appreciation of yourself are even being willing to try that and either if all we can do is hang out in our bodies. For a moment, that's great, you know and just to celebrate. The times that we are able to feel our feet on the floor and to know that if we're feeling on the floor and that as far as we're gonna go, that that is actually a big deal, I think that we should imagine that we're not really there. Unless for feeling all of our body, you know where we can feel every it a part of our body Allah once and we can feel our hard and we can feel hurt open and now just feeling one

place in your body is actually enough and it can be like the place. That's the farthest away from the emotional trigger that you are experiencing in can be your finger. Tipps on where you could like rub your fingers. Other are you could feel? Your toes wiggle them, and the reason that that's useful is because one in our bodies, we are, in the present moment, were not caught up in thinking. We're not feeding some mental habits were here have not abandon ourselves. We have. Run off into trying to think about away out were here with our body. We don't have to be The centre of the storm we can be with our feet and that actually helps to downright late are nervous system so that it becomes easier and easier to stay present, and so just touching in and finding a place, that's ok to be with cultivates of mind that can be present and that can start to try

that it's ok to come inward. This is an unfair thing, I'm about to do, because we literally have like three minutes left here, so we may want to cut but you know I had on my list of questions to ask of you know in buddhism. There are all these practices that try to get us to turn into the disgusting aspects of the body, the flemish the spit. Do you know that gurgling of bodily fluids as a way to help us let go of our attachment to these bodies that we can get to obsessed with. Do you find those useful now not at all laden hearty a little bit, but not to say that it wasn't useful at that time. I think that the buddha lived in a way different culture and people had much different relationships with their body.

Then our culture and at this time that we are experiencing, and so that practice was probably pretty helpful for a lot of people. I think that people were attached to their body is in a much different way. I think we are attached to our bodies but it's in more of what negative way. Then there was back then and obviously I dont know exactly What I'm talking about, because I didn't live at that time, but my sense of it is that that practice could be helpful for people who are attached to their bodies in a more conceivable way, more vain kind of way, which is a thing, and it's just not a thing that I experience. So that might be a useful practice for some people, but I think it especially for women- and I also don't want to say that men don't have difficult relationship with their bodies. The same way that women do exist. I think women in particular can be focused on with it

the way that our bodies are that practice can actually be kind of harmful, because there's enough self hatred and enough discussed for what already going on and it promotes the idea that that's the way you know that's liberation is to keep hating yourself and eventually you'll, just detached from the body and flood up, enter the deva around and be free I think I'm talking about a more kind of opposite practice. That also points to freedom minute. That is, then, facing an loving and feeling completely at home in our bodies, entrusting them not tapping into a door and feeling, like our bodies, are, are everything it and when I have a point, fact body, then I'm gonna be free, because maybe that's what not practice of the bitter would be helpful. But just landing in our bodies and

loving them for all of their quirks and faults and the things that we see as mistakes and seeing all of the things in our bodies as fodder for freedom. I love talking to you. It's been too long, you're really the star, and I'm grateful to you for spending time here with me today, thanks santas really really get to be on the show, thanks for having me Thanks again to Cora, thanks to you for listening, go, give us a rating or a review on your favorite podcast player that actually really helps, and thanks most of all to everybody who worked so hard on this show, ten percent happier is produced by Gabriel's ackerman justine, davy, Lauren smith. terror, Anderson, DJ cashmere, Our senior producer, I should say DJ, has worked ferociously hard on this series? Thank you dj

marisa efficient men is our senior editor and can be regular. Is our executive producer scoring and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio Nick thorburn of the band islands wrote our theme we're going to continue this series. Coming up on Monday wave and interview with woman, I do a doctor or a psychiatrist, and also a nutrition expert, and she talks about the mental health impact of the various foods we eat very, very interesting, the a prime First, you can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music down

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