Why, you might fairly ask, am I interviewing Rainn Wilson, best known for his star turn on the sitcom The Office playing Dwight Schrute, the hilariously dysregulated paper salesman with a lust for power and a tragic haircut? Why, you may ask, am I interviewing that dude about mental health and spirituality?
Because in real life, Rainn Wilson has spent many, many years wrestling with religion, sobriety, and marital ups and downs, and he's got a new book called Soul Boom in which he cracks a lot of jokes and also makes a dead serious case for a spiritual revolution. (I'll explain exactly what he means by that.)
In this episode we talk about:
- the role of the Baha'i faith in his life
- why he was so miserable at the height of The Office's popularity
- what he considers his greatest achievement in life
- the importance of spiritual pilgrimage
- the ingredients of the perfect religion, which he insists must include potlucks.
A little bit more about Rainn: he won three Emmys for his work on The Office. He hosts a podcast called Metaphysical Milkshake, and he's got a new travel series on Peacock called Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss.
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/rainn-wilson-603
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The ten percent happier podcast dan harris, the hello everybody why you might fairly
Ask em. I interviewing rain wilson, best known for his star turn on the sick com. The office playing
I'd, shrewd, the hilariously disregarded paper salesman with less
for power in a tragic hair cut why you may
get my interviewing that dude about mental health and spirituality,
because in real life, rain Wilson has spent many many years wrestling with religion, sobriety and marital ups and downs and he's
a new book called soul boom, in which he cracks a lotta jokes and also makes
dead, serious case for a spiritual revolution, I'll explain exactly what he means by that
In this conversation we also talk about the role of the high faith in his life. He explained with a high faith is all about.
Why he was so miserable at the height of the offices popularity. I found that fascinating what he considers his greatest achievement in life, the importance of sport,
dual pilgrimage
and the ingredients of the perfect religion. We
he insists, must include potlucks
a bit more about ran before we dive in here he won three enemies for his work on the office. He owes to podcast
metaphysical milkshake
and he's got a new travel series on peacock called rain Wilson and the geography of bliss.
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rain. Wilson welcome to the shop,
thank you, Dan Harris. Thanks for having me on the show huge pleasure
I am a long time found, so it's really nice to gets talk to face to face, albeit to virtually
let me ask you this: what is a soul boom?
I saw boom is a much needed spiritual reboot. I feel
I leave that
ass americans in contemporary life, have discarded
so much about
spirituality, because we have such a profound distaste of most religion that we ve
a throne, the spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater
And there are really beautiful and powerful spiritual tools
to make our lives better and not only personally. By can
our society, transform for the better,
there are many things: don't ask about all that living to start with a definite.
tip here. What do you mean by spiritual? I am
talking about sciences that raise the dead interview,
Thank you. Everyone thinks that they have to say. I know I can go there with you. Most pod castors would be like the moon, but
it should be told. That is a super important question. You been at this a long time. You understand that cause people have very different definitions to some people. It does mean ghosts to some people. It means going to church on sunday and that's what's beer tool is and what it means to me. It's
anything that has to do with
being a human being? That is not of the material so
body. What
my body want and need it needs food and drink right. Occasionally, sacks of my work
it needs shelter
once comfort and
It's the kind of primal part of my animal brain wants a certain social status right, a social certain social capital which is very important to us human beings and to building societies. Putting all that aside, the
as to the stuff, his spiritual. If my heart, it's my
consciousness
my soul, the light of my divine.
Qualities of kind
as humility, openness,
compassion honesty all of those
divine qualities that we all have within us. That is what spirituality us, but is
the soul and the spirit, and in this
Hey, you mean soul in the classic, really
just sense that there is some essence of us that is immaterial well
I wouldn't say immaterial, but I would say that, yes, I believe from my own person,
faith. Tradition,
from a lot of study and reading that we are spiritual beings and we're here,
the human experience as father
They are t shirt famously said we ve got
eighty or ninety years. If we're lucky can these meet suits and our reality or spiritual reality continues after
bodies, fall away just
as babies in the womb had one reality. That was our kind of.
Reality and
we're growing arms and ears and legs and eyelashes that we were going to need on this
physical plane.
we are growing spiritual qualities on this material plain for
wherever our journey takes us. This is bad
I by every faith, tradition now some will say. Well, you know
new tradition, you come back to launch come back. Sometimes you continue if you're wrong
I've been enlightened. Sometimes you choose to it
it is about a supper, but every faith tradition has some kind of idea that
We are more than the material and
our journey continues after death.
In some way shape or form and
I buy it. I'm in.
Sign rain. All the way up. Having said that, though, my limited understanding of buddhism, a foundational principle,
of the buddha and to say this pact
is heavily influenced by buddhism era. One of his foundational principles was
There is no soul, there is no self. There is no nugget of rain, hiding behind your eye socket somewhere. That actually
thing to see, as you are inextricable
intermixed with the universe. Yes,
there's a lot of different interpretations are obviously of buddhist teachings and what the buddha man and what the buddha actually sad verses. What a lot of his disciples sad- and I know that you ve done on your part-
asked a lot of deep dives into into really the reality of the boot. I love what you're doing this new series about getting to know the eightfold path and the four noble truths on and the life of the buddha. So I'm
no authority at all, but
even if you believe
and the idea of the boat that you have.
a reality and the your body dies, and this arrived in life
awakened cause buddha means the awakened one. If this awakened reality, part of yourself chooses to
It can return to another corporal
sense too,
further the work of increasing compassion and reducing suffering so
however, that is seems
assault me. It's maybe just a day
definition. Here's how
with changes in the high fades tradition. I'm a member of the high face. This oneness thought the buddhas talk you my and when you go back to the vague as a new punish jobs and the romantic thought of the reality. As we are all one, there
illusion of separateness is inherent to part of the suffering there were all undergoing this illusion of separateness can be
be described metaphorically, can the behind tradition as thinking about the ocean. So there is this
credibly beautiful ocean and their waves on the ocean and were all waves on this sea. So are we,
the visuals.
Yes is a wave and individual think is the wave part of something much bigger. Of course,
both of those things can be true, there's not a dichotomy between
the individual and the collective, but I-
I ever closer to enlighten meant by really
thing- those boundaries that separate us,
part of our spirit,
your journey and again you can find out in the bible with Jesus. You can find that with Mohammed. I
the section and sole boom dan hairs. A look I happen to have a copyright here. I had a section about religion.
in here I have a chapter called: hey, kids: let's build the perfect religion. Where I talk about finding the bits
ups and downs in dad's of all the faith, traditions that we love the most and putting together in one
jambalaya soup of a new religion. But before that I have a chapter:
the fabulous foundations of faith where I,
Scots, the universality of religion,
because it's really easy to look at the differences but say between buddhism in Islam, which seem wildly different.
At first blush in so many ways, but if you
that aside a little bed and dig a little deeper there are some founded,
external elements that are one one hundred
an alignment and said the bulk is not to propound any specific religious faith. It's to dig into spiritual ideas, so I want to say
like ok, let's get some differences between the base, let's put them aside. Let's with,
look at the universality and what we can learn from them
I want to go into those lists,
but later in this interview, just so people
of more of a sense of who there listening to those who you are
Q educate us a little bit about the high faith and its role in your life. Sure who I am is
ridiculous, looking sitcom,
actor so,
for those who are just listening to the dulcet tones of my voice on the podcast app of your choice, but this particular actor
was raised a member of the high faith and then
was really beautiful and cool. I left the by faith for a very long time. In my twenty
in early thirties and started. My own personal spiritual quest during
at the time, but for those who don't know the bahai faith is very accepting
an inclusive of all the different faith traditions and that is its foundation
there is only one god, this guy
it is not an old,
white man with a beard
I a cloud obviously unknown, really believes that. But there is nothing that is
escape deity or a persona or person, or like a demigod who can throw lightning bolts and find your parking spaces, and that's not what god is, but this
unknowable force, that is beyond time and space that
exists in this universe, in an infinite other universes anyway, that's all living.
Have a good conversation, but this god force for lack of a better word.
Sends down divine teachers,
to humanity every five hundred thousand years or so these include lord krishna. The buddha than ever
My face Abraham, Moses Jesus
the prophet mohammed and
I also believe that there is a new what behind
would call a manifestation not approve
but a manifestation of god, because that's what these holy teachers are
for how long.
and by how allow lived in the night
in century.
In persia and the middle east is spent his whole life.
In jail and being banished him
orchard, essentially, like all of these spiritual teachers, do
like, hey, we believe in love, that's persecute you and attack you and imprison you in crucify fire.
So behind are also believers in the teachings of power law.
name means the glory of god,
The title I was given to him and
work for peace and love.
And unity in lots of different ways, and we accept that
central teachings of the world's faith traditions, soda
I think I'm using this word correctly. I think that's
sing, critic, impulse, tat, ecumenical impulsive. Let's combine different philosophies, world views that seems to be,
in quite powerfully into your new book. Yes it.
Does very much. The book is very inspired by the high faith in a lot of different ways. Is behind book I'm not trying to convert people the high. It's really not.
that it's just
a playground of ideas about spirituality and kind of shaking things up and getting people to think about it.
talk about spiritual cons
some fresh ways. You said you left behind
in your toys and duties, have you come back to it and what is your practice or pay
the patient look like.
I have come back to it. I spent a lot of dark
aids of the soul in a kind of mental health,
any of my own. I know that you suffer
from an have suffered from anxiety
I did the same. I had a period of time and my twenties wide crippling
anxiety attacks that would leave me
the floor. Sweating
and shaking a lot of depression and addiction issues?
loneliness and alienation and.
As I had jettisoned my face, I thought- and I
use this phrase before, but I love- and I kind of thought have I
thrown. These spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater by june
listening religion and I'm so miserable? Maybe there's a spiritual solution to
what I'm going through smart waterways to your path, so I read,
the bible and read the bug about and read the koran, and I read as much as the rig veda punish odds as I could under
damn
really did a deep exploration in
finally, after a very long period of time, at least twelve years came back to the high faith, so I am
a member of the bible. What does that look like for behinds
If no clergy, in my face, which I love theirs
pre, serve more leisure, gurus or anything like that. It's a democratically elected and run organization,
not dissimilar from like a power, twelve programme runs itself and
I get up in the morning- and I read wholly writings from
by writings at some point
in time. During the day I say a special prayer similar
muslims who bow five times to mecca behinds once a day turn there
toward the holy land in the by faith, which is in israel
in haifa, Israel, where power allow his buried
and I say I bear wit
oh my god that thou has created
to know the to worship, thee.
I testify at this moment to my powerlessness,
into I might to my poverty.
And to thy wealth that there is no
their god help imperil the self subsisting
I read. A wholly riding at night-
prayer and meditation practice that I do and-
is a period of time in the year whereby eyes to a fast, a spiritual fast,
similar to ramadan in some ways, and then I would framework to
bring light to the world and make people laugh and make the world a better place and be of service, and
That's what it is to be a bye.
You go over the words of that prayer
that you say how can you do this again so
bear witness. Oh, my god,
that thou hast created me.
To know the and to worship, thee,
so. I love at first sentence of the prayer because it said
it's and I think, Baha'U'Llah allows given it to aspire to safer. Very specific reason is the meaning of life. We have been cut.
It- is to know and worship god. Now. Let me
copyright there and I know, there's a lot of skeptical buddhists out there.
What does that mean to known worship, god
First blush: do mine,
going off afghanistan, I loved,
Whatever the opposite of mind is I love. It
so at first blush you're, like too
I wouldn't worship, god, okay, what does that mean? I'm going to read stories from the holy books and I'm going to say a lot of prayers and say: oh god, you're so great. I love you, god you're, so wonderful that that's what that means, but dig a little deeper.
in the behind teachings the one aspect
If god that is most accentuated, is that god is unknown.
The unknowable essence he's called throughout
my writings so where's,
want to know
the unknowable
is a dichotomy that I love
is it really impossible? God is
an unknowable essence! And yet we seek to known. How do we do that.
through the arts.
through sciences.
Einstein was very much. You read his court
on a journey towards trying to understand god through an understanding of the mysteries of the universe and cosmology by knowing other people.
It says in the koran. No god is to know thyself or actually data
I said from the krona- might be ideal, but to no, god is to know thyself. So as we
to know those guys.
I'm components of who we are. That's also getting to know god. Now, let's talk about worshipping, god
by framework of worshipping god, the highest
warm of worship, is service to others. Yes,
our prayers and thereby faith in. You can certainly say god, you're, so wonderful, an Lamar
has that wonderful book called help.
while the three kind
the prayers. I love that title. Its help, which is you, can ask
Hey god help me. My cousin is sick. Thanks witches
praise and gratitude which you, buddhists, love. The gratitude
grateful for this beautiful
I am assured, and I get to talk to Dan Harrison. He know so much about happiness and wow is cash. Life is so
were, and beautiful and wonderful in the universe is so magnificent. So those are there.
Three prayers in her book. I love that book were
dripping. God this service to others, also in the high faith, the crew,
vision of arts and sciences is worship of god. So you
be listening in your like
an electrical engineer. Making the work
better by bridge
power grids right, that's worship of
anything that is bringing
well together using your creative
well to your imagination. Your mission of service to others is worship of gods.
When you unpack that sentence-
it becomes a lot more mystical and very gated. Then you would think that first blush
yeah and I know there's more to get too from
a prayer, but just to say. I think this doesn't really describe me any more, but I think there's an older version of me when I heard somebody reference god. It just sounded creepy,
well you're describing is.
At least to my ears in arguable me with their so much mystery in the universe. We don't
there's just one universe and there's some
mysterious animated force. But if not forces behind
enmesh into everything. We don't know what
just is how it arose
and so, when you say get to know god, even though your gendering, god
the key that you really talking. It seems to me your correct me about,
engaged with life instead of
I engaging with the minutiae of
Your ego, china, but heads with the mystery a little bit
love that you used the word mystery two or three times because
When I was feeling the same way as you did two ago ago, god Godfrey creepy, I thought about cod and adjust- was so patriarchal resist like this
male energy,
judge mental,
it was like watching me like. Oh, I m doing these drugs and
god is that their going you it's no good, you suck do knows drugs rain, as if god is like your uncle Carl or something
I really really struggled for years.
But I decided to go on a deeper die. A lot of people stop there,
and I will pat myself on the back- forgive me I'm in every mountbeliard. I want
the dive deeper and try really understand what was meant.
The word god. In fact, I have a chapter in my book called the notorious g o d
digressing here but based on
a television show. I tried to pitch called
notorious g jihadi. I wanted to do a tv show about god, because I went on this quest. Looking for what god could
we mean and
I thought you'd be funded, taught the scientists and aid programmers and pygmies living in the bush and born again pendergast tools in new age think
there's an atheists and let's explore this concept, is one of the most ancient concepts in human history and one of the most important and influences
course of our lives, so I had a picture
Dad can assess all real and we went out at episodes outlined and the whole thing. You got
was turned down everywhere and the
the thing I ever heard was from nets.
And they said yeah, we're sorry
The topic is just too controversial,
that is so typical of hollywood really netflix, so you can have drunk
Wives of dallas throwing garbage at each other and the boom.
Slip out and then someone
it hits each other and vomits, and then they all hook up. That's, ok, that's perfectly fine
flight entertainment, but an export
god is too controversial. So that's where we are as a culture to say, no
there are many serious jeffrey Dahmer and it was the number one show anyways thats a separate topic, I'm getting back to the word mystery that you use
when I went on this journey
read a lot of native american spirituality and I
m, came across this idea from a lakota coda called call.
oh come car, which is there
for a higher power, which literally translates as the great mystery
You could say the great spirit, but also the great mystery, and
as soon as I read that stop me in my tracks, like wow, I love
mysteries, anathema mystery
I cast my leg
essential mysteries of being alive and there
conception as far as I and my limited white man. Understanding of it is that this power
that is beyond time, and space runs through nature,
throw beauty runs through the wood.
in the trees. That is the power of the ancestors, that is,
on time and space like I said that can be felt
for directions. In fact, their seven directions, theirs for directions than theirs up and down, and the seventh
action, is in internal that
This all loving natural
force guess how they.
Understand, quarter,
oh god and that nature is all a metaphor. So the sun is a reflection of the power like and strength of cod rains or that
abundance and bounty of god. The spring time in the growing of the crops is how
The gifts are given to us and
it goes on and on so that was a big part of my
ernie as well. There is more
prayer, though, can you do the the ok? Maybe there is a second stanza yeah? I test fight this moment to my powerlessness into thy. Might
to my poverty into thy wealth.
That there is none other guy but help in peril
The self subsisting
So for me, when I say that prayer and in my work
My meditation practice in my prayer practice, because I trying to both humility, is important,
and I am naturally arrogantly entitled in its image
For me, too, humble
myself and
In remembering that this great mystery ass.
All of reality in this universe, an infinite other universes beyond this one
he for lack of a better pronoun
as all powerful, and I am, and I'm weak and just being in that state.
of submission that there is great mystery.
And power in beauty in that act of prayer.
Having a brain wilson talks about why he thinks we need a spiritual revolution. What exactly at means annie,
this of spiritual pilgrimage.
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so you got back into the face
of your upbringing elevate later in your life,
It's to map some of the anecdotes,
you ve shared about your own mental health onto what we know about your career. Were you having
of anxiety and depression. While you were on the office was this before covers? Put it in the timeline, I would go into
the corrals, trailer and up on his couch.
Ends,
would come in and be like what the hell I'm be like Steve, I'm so anxious, I'm just kidding. We just did
We have fun while we talk about-
a deadly serious topics by that time, I was in,
ivory by the time. I was deep in therapy
and I wasn't dealing
anxiety in the same way during those
this year's? It's funny, though, because I had a recent conversation would be J Novak. We did a book event at the ninety second street. Why and
someone asked whether you regret about the office in its funding. We both had the same regret witches, and this is very
much in line with your pod cast your audience and buddhists philosophy which is
I did not enjoy. It
it was there. I was not in the moment and drinking in my gratitude for
having the greatest job ever so
when I was on the office.
We were getting Emmy nominations I was getting. I may nominations are making a lot of money. I was working with beautiful.
people making great comedy terrific show it doesn't
a better in the rain. Let that be tough
And it wasn't enough for me- and I was like well- I want this other movie and I want a studio deal and I want to have a first look deal in how come on
getting paid for this, and I want an
that hungary ghost
part of myself.
was really activated, so I struggle
with that for a lot of
office and an
and clean
We spend a lot of really unhappy because I was
Trying to get the next thing or the bigger thing her
why am I not as big a movie star, as will feral and jack black and ends
comparing and all the thing
as humans do and it just it wasn't enough, and I wish it had just been enough, and I wish I could have just been like I'm
Can I just revel in these nine years of playing this amazing character with this amazing group of people
I couldn't do it, so that's a simple
of my anxiety of the spiritual disease that I've been struggling with. I will say this is a funny story and totally true
All of a sudden, then my
Anxiety. If I just address my anxiety, started
flare up and talk shows, and I had a crippling
fear of going on talk, shows especially ones in front of like a studio audience. It was a little bit.
And it was also a little bit understandable. Considering my background, I had this unnatural
fear that I was going to freeze up and not have anything to say and
people want a laugh. They weren't gonna like me, and I would repeatedly
stay up. You can ask my wife. I would get three or four hours asleep. I would have diarrhoea, I would you
be going over. Like my colleague what material the stories I was gonna tell on the talk shows, and it was blue
and it took a lot of work into therapy. I did hypnosis. I did he
de are to try and get to a point where
I could do a talk. Show with kind of grace
ease and without kind of crippling anxiety. I proceed.
much of what you just said really relate to it. Just this may spear superficial place
again in the wake of the rather profound
things. You just said about revelations the aegis share with us.
just on on talk, shows I'd always ever been on when a late night
touch. I guess I've been on the daily shook with down the daily show or a cold
we're back in the day, it wasn't rehearsed. It was really extent prized at least as as the guest. I didn't know what they were going to ask me in advance, but I thought on the late night, talk shows if you went on fallon or whatever they actually, you went through a rehearsal beforehand, with the host et cetera, et cetera. So why would?
be so different from being on a tv show,
on the office. A script. It you see, you you
don't do rehearsal you, don't you talk to a producer,
a couple of days beforehand or dared to beforehand.
And they ask you a bunch of questions and they ask you: are there stuff you want to talk about or do you have a funny story and they look at your social
worse than they sell. I hear recently that you adopted a donkey when you tell us about that, and you do this banter with their produce
sir and out of that, the producer kind of like figures out. Oh here's
funny story and here's the three or four things we talk about, and
They go over with a talk, show host the day off without you
italian brain can talk about his donkey and then ran to talk about his new showers project whenever so,
is this weird hybrid, on a talk show, is what screwed me up as it's not memorized, but it's
beat it out.
They want you to talk about, but you can also improvise if you walk as those talks with us or so good, but that
I was always through me and
also the fact that their
this big audience, but then
a camera does on you like this big to play the camera and the host, or
You played the audience and I
like was like
because I come from a theatre like do I played it, but if you play the army's, then you're really big, because you're being captured this camera and do you improvise or do you go as I'm trying to remember the story and trying to make it as funny? As I told you when I
told they were just never quite as funny and
I would refer said and go over to my head over it and would get stale, and can I get messier plain and simple.
I hear it in your retelling that the you re you just got coiled up into intense over thinking. Yes,
the more profound thing you talked about, though, was the hungry, which I relate to men I ruined. I was in the news business for thirty years and basically ruined many of them
years by doing exactly what you described this sense of insufficiency in comparison yeah. I really relate to what I think a lot of people will and just out of here
yesterday and you may have spoken about it before, but how does that manifest for a news guys can like, while I want them
anchored desk at seven p m wearing me ass, a better shower, so I was never in twenty four hour news I was on abc knew so there are very
few slots throughout the day, but whose either
a job on good morning, america oral do tonight or nightline or three principal shows. Why did that?
and get it and then on a big, slightly lower level like me, who was getting to cover what stories allotted that person
send to Iraq and I wanted it and yet pretty intense and I did not handle it. Well.
I didn't, handle the office stuff well and mostly it just made me a jerk and I added not hand on my marriage very well either. Can I was
I would rage and I would get depressed and I was just talk
myself in my career non stop and you know forcing lad. Good therapy in is kept workin out at and it got better- and I would say by
and I want to set a date on about two thousand ten eleven. I was much much better and it's been
just so much better since then, and the years since the
Fears have been wonderful, like I haven't as an
after I haven't really hit much that has really taken off that people mostly love the office
but I've loved it. I've played some great interesting roles and to be on
our track, and I get to big
action movies and I've got?
do weird little comedies and films and play dramatic roles and
it's really watching them and guess what I don't really care much. I get to play a great roles and that's why I got into this business. How did you
to the point of not caring and by the way this is a sort of a healthy, not caring as a programme nihilism. How did you get to that lets? You call it healthy apathy,
I know that a contradiction in terms, but how did you arrive at that? After being, as I said before, coiled for so long, I'm asking for free-
nope her great
I don't have
I have one realisation that I made but
Let me actually let me start with that. My main realisation was really had
to do with the serenity prayer
grandmother serenity to accept the things. I cannot change the courage to change the things I can't
and the wisdom to know the difference and almost to do list
there's. No it already, but I want to pull it out.
Say that grandmothers running accepted
I cannot change what can't I change. I can't change if audiences
like me, and other rules or not
can't change if judd out doesn't want to cast me in his next big studio, comedy
change your file studio.
Network doesn't want to make a show with mere do something with me. It's completely
My control, it's like I have chosen
They have a career in hollywood, which is one of the most unfair crazy
making upside down.
This is in the world I have chosen to make my living there
in what ways is like a giant popularity contest whose
and who's not end.
A lot of my movies that I try bombed and no one watched some men, that's fine,
it happens. Sometimes two people to talented people,
and ass. All that's out of my control so
day in day out.
Whether someone is to make a move in with me whether someone wants to watch the indies on that I did Adam. I control the kurds,
the things I can't. What can I do? I could be wrong
scripts. I could be meeting filmmakers. I could be generating projects, I can have meetings with folks.
I started a production company console pancake that was
uplifting digital media company for years that we ran? I can try and make a difference in the world, and so that's why I put my focus now. There's
were to it. The narratives
twelve step meetings. It was therapy
talking to my wife. It was meditation. It was surrender
to god willing the prayer that we too
about a lot of it has to do with my worst defects as a person
which is people,
pleasing scratch any
actor and underneath you maybe a newsman to you get. I hope you like me
and I had a lot of that people, please,
in co dependence too in lead
that goal and the abbot
it's been a long- it's been a long process, but how manner
It's been such a relief. These last
Twelve years have just been so nice
I could sense it, the ones and zeros for sure
curious? Did you and your wife make it through?
yeah, my we ve been together twenty eight years, married thirty one.
together our names, holiday, ryan, worn, she's, affection writer,
she went to the higher riders workshop and sheep toils away on these and credit.
Beautiful short stories that she publishes and talk about that like she work like a year on a short story and publish it and like
One hundred and thirty seven people will read it because people don't really read, but she loves it and she's, brilliant and she's. Far more,
a spiritual and grounded than me and we ve worked on a lot.
Stuff together and throw lot by far.
My greatest accomplishment is too,
this marriage, keep it going and learn how to be a better partner.
To be more humble,
and went intimacy is and its related to happiness. I think his intimacy, because
When you have intimacy, you have a greater well being, but so many of us
we don't learning intimacy, have to learn yourself. I d learn intimacy like from a therapist wages. I was embarrassing, but my parents didn't have intimacy than ever hoped
They never talked about emotions to grow up
This will give you had emotions everyone like ignored. You shunned you and pretended that the emotions didn't happen so
I learn how to do that and it takes them doing pick some work
aid- is a really important point. You're, making it
actually my wife and I went to a couples, counselor pre pandemic, and he made the same point to us, which is that, even if you had great parents- and I actually did
grandparents, who work touchy feely with us and each other all.
Greatly. Nobody ever really gives you
your personal hygiene on any level, but you're not taught how to be a friend or co worker and certainly not how to be a good partner in a romantic arrangement. We learn from our parents and the movies and the move.
Where which are designed to have a heightened drama, keep you engage, they cut out
the boring, important stuff, the chopping of wood and carrying of water. That's involved in a romantic partnership.
Like listening.
That's an important one. Listening to your partner
I'm not trying to fix some guys have that's that
and see the kind of like
the partners, will talkin
I wonder if it is a guy thousands are caught, it must be a cultural kind of thing, like
well, you should do do do do and you should do why? Don't you do blah blah blah? Why don't you fix it by calling someone so and just asking for a book like no one wants to hear that I was the king of telling people the best way to do things, and what do I know
but speaking of what does rain? No, let's go back your book. The thesis, as you explained it earlier, is that we need a spiritual revolution. What do you mean by that and how would it help so,
great question and that's the thesis of the book. I talk about. There's two paths
and spirituality,
and I compare them the tv shows so the first path I compare to
the show kung fu from the seventies. One of my,
what shows of all time. For those who don't know,
quite change came a chauvelin monk and martial artist. Who came?
china to the old west, look
for his brother, and he encountered these racist cowboys and angry people in greedy people, and he brought
beautiful eastern
wisdom, confucian, taoists buddhist philosophy and
helped people long away, and there were some good asking
along the way as well, so that
to me as a parallel to the spiritual path of most people walk when they engage with it, which is prayer
meditation. I want to make myself a better person. I want to bring my peace.
tranquillity that I generate in turn,
lee and bring them to the world and when I grow in my own personal wisdom, etc, that personal spiritual path, the other show I talk about it.
Work is star trek.
in star trek, which I believe personal,
because one of the most spiritual shows of all time and broad,
I would hate that I'm saying that, but I
really do believe that, because
what's happened and star trek, there's been a big war on planet earth,
and out of the ashes of that war. We ve learned how to get along, finally,
we ve created a world federation
eliminated income inequality
we've eliminated racism. We accept
of all different skin colours and classes and culture
and celebrate their diversity, and
we ve eliminated sexism and
then we are allowed to go out and boldly go into space and explore space ass. No man has done before. So. To me, that's the other aspect.
of spirituality, which is communal, witches,
How can I help you?
world. How can I help make the world a better place? How can I
relieve the suffering of others. Even the buddha talked about that a great deal,
about.
You work on your own suffering, an attachment and non attachment
so that you can go out in the world and relieve the attachment and non attachment and suffering of others right and you
that through increased compassion, so this is
humanity's maturation, as evidenced by
Star trek
now allow the founder of the by faith, says all men?
created to carry forward an ever advancing civilization. So
we all have a role to play. You play that role, damn beautifully
pod podcast that has brought joy and
duration and uplift meant millions and millions of people over the years. You sharing on personal story,
this. Is your contribution
You don't need a hog cast, foster an actor to do it. You can be an accountant. You can be
housewife, a dogwalkers bus driver. It doesn't matter you can.
Be in service in your work, you can help other folks, you can
a grass roots movement, so
spiritual revolution is looking at those spiritual tools and looking at that,
systems through play in the world. There are so broken and some
guided,
the example. I use that still just stand me as our health care system is based on profit.
Healthcare system should be killing, people who are set not profit,
off of people's sickness. We almost one
to be more set so that the end
we can just make more money so is complete.
Backward we're not gonna fix
with some legislation, we're not going fix it with a bill being passed in congress to don't
the these bills in certain hospitals. In this certain ways, that's not in a fix the problem, the sister.
Has been created without
compassion in mind without basic human.
spiritual integrity in mind and we need to
invasion in some way, shape and form a transformation of these systems that driver contemporary
society and
said than done. I know a lot of
people might be rolling their eyes me like a great idea. How do you do it so naive and pie in the sky and I'd get down
I do try and address that some spiritual practical
ladys? For that, but more importantly, we just need to be engaging in a conversation of aid. Can we use spiritual tools to make the work?
the better place and to bring people together and here
the vision, I think one other
of scepticism might come from folks on the left. You are like. We got a lot of people on the right who were waving around court, unquote, spiritual books as they try,
I too, they take away my rights. So why would I want any form of spirit
Well, in fact,
affecting political discourse,
yeah I'd get tat. We ve been bludgeoned with a lot of sense,
actuality in religion? Lotta people suffer from religious trauma, religion
itself is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human
history. The list, just
goes on and on I get it and I have been personally attacked from both left and right online as I've been talking about my book.
my television show about happiness and from the laughter of
here's another problem
The timing pretend
had he, god isn't gonna, save us in moralising and then from the right of you're, not saying that Jesus Christ,
is the way in the light and the only way to the fathers threw him when you're talking about like social
justice issues, spirituality, being used to tackle social justice issues which can be distasteful
both sides and again
ok. I don't really care that's out of my control, but I do think that
it applies to everyone, and I hope that sole boom reaches
people who are fundamentalist christians and might get something out of it and people that are diehard marxist atheists.
might get something out of it, because I'm a essentially just talking.
Increasing compassion,
and increasing service to others.
Building grassroots movements at the same stuff
I'm not comparing myself, I'm not comparing myself to same sex.
They guardian, martin luther king, we're talking about it. It's just I just
Sparking a conversation is what I'm about you,
prince your new tv, show it held ring wilson and the geography of bliss? It's on peacock. You travel around the world to look at summit,
happiest places on earth and
kind of an intersection between the show and at least one of the chapters in the book in one of the chapters in the
You talk about the importance of pilgrimage forsaken
spaces sacred places that you would make a trip to. Why is pilgrimage?
so important. In your view and
could a regular person who doesn't
tv show operational lies this insight into their daily lives
I thought this was a podcast only for people with tv shows
it would be a small bodies but very valuable forever. Yes, all thirty, seven listeners
yeah, great question, so in
it wasn't in the geography of bliss. I hate
that they added my name to. It should just be the geography of bliss which is based,
you're, goin great travelogue
I go around the world looking for what makes us happy, because maybe there are lessons to be learned from other cultures. Maybe we don't know everything here in amerika and
but we can learn something from icelanders or people in ghana, west africa or
in thailand, which are some of the places that I got to go and didn't
way the tv show, was a kind of a pilgrimage. I got you
pilgrimages too deeply happy places and learn from somewhere
extraordinary individuals that was amazing and I haven't
after on sacredness ex cop
sacred pilgrims. I took her
pilgrimage with
family to the high holy land, and I felt this holy.
And sacredness everywhere I win and was so special
This is in every faith tradition. You can do every
tradition as some kind of pilgrimage, even buddhism depending
the type of buddhism, maybe not
strange kind of yoga,
sport buddhism, but in actual buddhist practice there are many different kinds of
pilgrimages that are undertaken, obviously mecca
slum? The wailing wall,
church of the holy sepulchre there's many of these
The holy places.
In native american and indigenous
spiritual traditions, it might be a local mountain
tat or a burial ground or the sacred stand of trees,
in the chapter again
just raising questions. Why is it that we and our western
culture have lost all sense of the sacred knowing
is to be that only churches forsaken
So again we have this kind of trauma
around the word sacred o sake,
for my grandparents meant the church?
on sunday and everything
was not sacred and of the devil. You know there's a lot of that going around, but I do think that we ve lost something
by not considering more deeply how to create it
spaces
concrete, I'm in our home in our backyard. We can create sacred activities
Sometimes my family, you get together just make pancakes on a sunday morning at a time of joy and light and celebration and relaxation that has a sick.
Feel to it,
I talk about in the chapter the haiku
who had bashful from it
we'll japan, who would
ernie about two shrines and villages and seek
places
and he would observe nature there,
and then he would write icu any would leave behind and he considered the greatest haiku poet of all time and I
about him in terms of these sacred journey
because that is so beautiful
me because it's an intersection of
eighth, religion, spirituality, nature. It
it be considered? Without?
considering the natural world and art the making of art
tree, so they're all three interwoven seamlessly
by shows pilgrimage, is making heart
by reflecting on nature at these sacred and holy places, any leaves a poem behind at each one, and I was
thinking. How could we don't have any?
sir, but how could we bring that into our lives? What do you think? That's what he wants. A sacred
these for you or how can you
What do you do to bring a sense of something
sacred and transcend in their eyes,
holy into your life,
it's interesting using the euro. I have a bit of a gag reflex at phrases
sacred or sacred space,
or wholly, and yet I realized that's counterproductive, I'm just saying it out loud. I also think if I'm hearing you correctly to maybe
but in different language, when you
talk about saying,
activities are places its. Please tell me if I'm wrong about this
activity or a location that elevates you out of the more noxious aspects of the ego, yes and
where there's a transcendent beauty connected with it that feels
of the mundane rachel
could be there.
At the common denominator is ah
I think it was a big aspect of it said
So I do my best, which is not good.
who infuse that into as much
of my moment to moment life as I can. I find a meditations really helpful at that, because
It's a systematic programme designed to wake you up out of the autumn activity in auto pilot and sleep walking. That is
serve mine, sat in which most of us live our lives.
And so the more I'm doing that. Just
hanging out my son, and I can remember like cap, maybe not to check my phone right now say
with literally any other human being than that at all becomes. If you want to use the word sacred sacred, and can you
Generate are like I'm in a
crappy hotel room in Louisville Kentucky right now. Can I generate staring at this foe granted,
top perched my laptop on yeah, why?
think about all the hands that touched
the slab of plastic
but culturally, so much of our
Colonel environment is based on
crass materialism endlessly
I need to get out of the car, go just like the next sky and get the bulk toilet paper. I wanna go down to the o reilly otto parts and get it boil filter like.
We got a sharp, I'm not like anti consumerist, but yet at the same time. So much of what I see when I drive around, especially los angeles, goes well
small town outside of LOS angeles, which is prettier, but it's all this kind of
chain, stores in boxy, hotels and auto glass,
grocery stores and parking lots and dumpsters and freeway divides and try
the quiets and we
Culture haven't sacrificed the way there,
We do? Business had an off its possible, but
Do we really need to settle for that? We need to settle fur
world in which we interact. It's just so cry,
ass, an ugly, and I don't know I'm not trying to be a elite is about it, but I feel like we should be talking about that, but the more I think it's both
in my opinion, that, yes, we should have more beautiful or inspiring transcendent places that are available to everybody, because that does uplift the mind and
I think that it is possible to generate are in the face of anything
I've rift on this before
So I apologise if I'm being repetitive apologizing to elicit listeners here, but we just think about everything
happened since the big bang hugh
ocean of cause and effect. So what did it take in that chaos?
to land us at this moment. What did it take for that dumpster to get bill?
and placed where it is as ugly as it is. As you drive around doing your shopping, what did it take for this foe granite tabletop to get made? You can look
anything through the lens of cause and effect. The buddhist call karma
see it as holier sacred or just holy shit, yeah
yeah. That's well said,
I struggle with that, and I dont know what the answer is, because we can
just have beautiful, fountains everywhere and gardens everywhere. Can we or maybe we can-
I don't know, but I have a chapter on death chapter on god, a chapter unconsciousness
during the meaning of life like these big spiritual questions,
our ones to ponder that ones to debate, and I think it's a really interesting conversation, because
culturally. I do think that we have lost something by losing our sense of the sacred, the profound, the MR kohl and the holy and
I understand that distaste understand that, while coming.
in the back into the resentment,
that sounds like holy water into some cleric without with robes in.
like antiquated ritual that has no bearing on my life and I
Nature also is have you said the greatest source of awe and its.
place that we can go to that is his.
A grid, but guess what we're not treating nature as sacred were not
climate change is the grandaddy of looking
nature is unsafe, grand it's just something to be scooped up.
spit out.
Draw the elements. We
from it. The way on
nickel and copper and whatever, and then we just
spewed detritus,
back into the soil in the earth- and I know,
sounds like a dippy environmentalist, but there is a spiritual
disease in our culture,
that causes us to accept that we
nature in this way, plus one
brain is gonna talk us through an exercise where he creates the perfect religion, and
explain why one non negotiable ingredient is potlucks.
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You referenced the lists,
you include in your book and theirs.
where you do this exercise of coming up with the perfect religion. Can you
us through that,
where you landed right, so
I see I have this chapter called: hey, kids, forgive me, I'm looking at this chapter is call hey. Kids, thus create the perfect religion.
Am I
I also have a list that
what the ten universal
all religious faith and
yeah here's some of the elements of it. Some of the elements are, these are somehow
every aspects of religions that I would love to see? People
gathering around
and embracing one
as the centrality of the divine feminine.
If you do a little reading around spiritual,
topics. You see that humanity up until
ten thousand years ago. Religious faith was
to around the feminine goddess.
And the harvest, energy and the mother earth
And we could learn so much from going back to some of those belief systems,
getting away from this kind of patriarchal view of god and again aggression and survival of the fittest? That has gotten us here, one
aspects I draw on this list is the harm
science and religion. I think there's. This is one of the greatest false
I
in religious and spiritual debate is
How many times and people said. I don't believe in
Why would I believe in science? Yeah, unable even science to
and I believe in spirituality, I think they're, both
ways of understanding life or both
of understanding the world. One is processed,
if to expand experience
patients, a process of understanding the physics
processes and data
think of knowledge and
here is how to live in it. Why were here? What gives us mean
what gives us per person. What other kind of
mysteries of the universe might be there that we can't pick up
on any kind of action
enter algorithm, so
profound connection to the natural world
focusing a life on service.
emphasis on music and the arts. The list goes on
and then I end with potlucks. Why potlucks.
Alex is one of the greatest inventions chris native american contribution to modern society, but potluck spring
people together? Everyone likes a hot dish. Have one likes it
After all, some everyone
the vinegary being salads, those other stuff that doesn't get eaten, but
people coming together, bringing something sharing together, communal table like
its essence at its heart? A great potluck is one of the greatest symbols of
spiritual unity that exists. How often do you get to go to bed
I do politics all the time. The are very good at pollux, so every
month. Amount about luck, beloved
he, does combined the social interaction we all need with a kind of levelling effect of sharing food, tat, everyone, my food,
I would like sharing
a great way to celebrate diversity. To give your with em
families and there's just
from around the world in your sharing what you love about their cultural heritage and celebrating the diversity to which is another one of my main tenets of
the perfect religion is celebrating diversity. We are
all flowers of one garden and garden is
beautiful when it has a variety of different flowers and
We need to celebrate, differ
skin colours and different ethnic here
Judges and different music and different ways of being social and embrace
as one of the strongest best things about being a human being and potluck. Do that, essentially
but I really pressure you talking about publics
that other aspects of your own life in this,
precision end to watch this change
from it sounds like in your office day.
that there were times when you did inhabit the darker aspects of deutsche
personality and it also.
He was like you, ve wrestle.
With an exercise some of these
medicine. That's very quarter to see in the erika
That's one reason why I wrote this book is. I think the essential question is like why the hell is the guy who played dwight writing a book and spirituality. The hell is this guy, but you know I've been
My story for a while now and I share my purse
no story because its away,
in again to looking at spiritual tools and
spaced wisdom and it
important to me, you know, had helped me and
I want to share that,
snow level, and I also think damn it's really friggin important- were in the midst
of some of the biggest crises that humanity has ever faced: a mental health
this among young people right now is staggering its horrific
and guess what their our spiritual tools that can help here,
this mental health epidemic you
that's a lot of them on your part cast and
look at climate change and there are spirit
tools that can help us he'll are released,
and ship to the natural world. There's the,
of war. So these
discussions is not like an airy fairy new Agee thing like oh I'll. Do you
the class in a crystal and breeding
are totally quote and think about it like there too,
is that we need
can save lives, can bring people together. It can help humanity and help me personally, and it can help
their peoples. I'm that's. Why
talk about it. As a spiritual revolution like I wanted to have some impact.
What I'm talking about? It's, not just! Oh here's, a nice little!
Finally, how beside little I side we're almost at the time, but you
on this question of impact. Being you touched on this a little bit earlier, but
just to say a few words about how I think about it, and maybe you can tell me if you agree or disagree, I think
fundamentally agree with you that many of the world's most intractable problems level up to
psychological, emotional slashed
to all problems in the human animal and it's going to be addressing those that will hopefully help us
move the needle on some of the big problems and
in terms of my own work and my own impact, I don't know,
I think I will
we, humans have always had like really big problems, and I dont know that anything, I'm doing or anything, I'm a part of doing is going to level up to the two
fixing them fundamentally and
but I think if I
and you can help
individuals improve their own lives,
actually really not nothing, and maybe it
Adds up to some sort of larger impact, but even in
and of its health
Babies, listen this conversation and they decide to take it seriously. It will improve their lives in that does ripple out very well said.
we know this from
positive psychologists, that, as you strife
to help others? You actually helps you
live in a culture that oh I'll, be happier if I a crew more stuff and I gain more social capital, but in
Surely your
appear when you're, helping others and then
one of the great benefits of doing the offices. I can't tell you the people every day was like. Thank you for this show you made me laugh. I was going through such a hard time laughter
important? Thank you for the stories that show got me through covert, etc, on and on
I will say that two things could you asked about this hatred?
was build a perfect religion to Ellen,
I just want to bring up which I think go along with this one. Is
that we need to create a new mythology of humanity,
the old mythology, real quick. As that
there's different tribes, we all hated
each other. We battled, we went to war and it was survival of the fittest baxter
dog, eat dog,
the best man win, don't tread on me. Every man for himself and survive
were the fittest strongest one, the worst aspects of humor
The aggression contest
adversarial, elysium, there's a different mythology. We hoped each other. We,
he cooperated with each other, we traded with each other. We learned from each other
over the course of human history. There's a different
history book that can be written on new mythology of humanity that we grew
together we grew wiser, together with we ve helped and
at each other and humbly learn from each
there's cultures and traded, and this is another aspect of who we are not just these
self centered animals
as part of who we are
have to acknowledge that, but there's a whole
their part of who we are as well enough,
this by saying another?
One of the take ways I put at the end of the book that
It is necessary for a spiritual revolution. We addressed a little band which is creating joy far,
drain. Joy
quashing cynicism. We
have to believe that we can make a difference and we can change things it so important if we
live in cynicism,
pessimism, and I will never change
aren't gonna change and
the forces of darkness, the voldemort win. The
of sore on win if we're
as domestic, so we have to
hearing joy release, joy, give joy to others.
I believe that we can make a change- and I think, that's crucial for
spiritual revolution
couple things to savers, one I'm one of those people who feels like you
performance specifically in the show generally has been a pretty significant value. Add in my life and definitely during covert I'll. Thank you
Thank you. Another thing to say is that I just really agree with
do and pretty much everything you said that you can look at the
condition through the lens of original sin that we are just we start broken
and the only way out is through something
way beyond us, and- and maybe that's true- but I my view is closer.
what you described, which, as we have it all, we have the full catastrophe available to us in our repertoire really shady aspect.
and really amazing aspects, and there are bugs in the human software. But there is a huge
which feature in your articulated, which
Is that I think this is if there's a way out of our problems. This is it
doing good, for others is of benefit to
There is a massive feature in
The human operating system and, like you said wise,
Dwight shrewd have any right to write about
virtuality same could be said to lock up sea level network news man what the fuck am. I do have my humble view that asked
active. The human operating system is the way out,
that's beautiful man, and that's it just a great place to start boy. How do I start a spiritual revolutions like well.
they want to others, and
serve others, and it.
your life happier better just start small bring a hot
they should casserole over to a sick. Relative start small
build from there, it start
To become more and more
What in your life- and you start realizing- I can't really live my life unless I'm doing so
to others and we can start
and they will snowball
before. I let you go. Can you please remind everybody of the name of your new book and also the name of your new tv show and where we can find both the book.
Called soul boom. Why we need a spiritual revolution and
can be found.
anywhere you like to buy your books, please support
Independent bookstores,
or to reign wilson and the geography of bliss
abuse. May eighteen, twenty twenty three on the peacock streaming service home of the office? How about it
synergy in which
I travel the world looking for happiness. Is it really
damn you're, gonna love the show it's really uplifting and fond and funny goofy, and it just makes
feel warm and makes you appreciate. Other cultures in its canada
antidote for the times were living in soil. People check it out rain such pleasure.
good on you for using your platform for such a positive
said I could get a minor television, sitcom actor and a sea level minor news man having conversations about transformation,
spirituality and happiness. Look at us, that's great,
Spend such a pleasure. I've been a huge fan of what you are doing
for such a long time? I'm glad we were able to make this
open and thanks for taking time to talk with me today, will appreciate it. Thank you to Wilson.
I always tell you, I don't know who they use in this case, but the conventional wisdom is that you shouldn't meet people who are
you're heroes,
rain did not. Let me down at all great great to meet him thanks
well to everybody who listens to the show if you've got a minute to do us a solid go rate us and review us that always helps, and thanks finally, to everybody who works so hard on. This show ten percent happier
by Tara anderson, Gabriel's, ackerman, justine, davy and Lawrence Psmith deeds,
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The theme music from nick thorburn of islands will see you all on wednesday for a brand new episode, we're going to
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Transcript generated on 2023-05-30.